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Do split-brain cases disprove the existence of an immaterial soul? (Part Two)

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In my last post, I discussed the problem of split-brain cases, which was first raised by KeithS in a post over at The Skeptical Zone titled, Split-brain patients and the dire implications for the soul (June 22, 2013). I began by distinguishing three varieties of dualism (leaving aside property dualism, whose inadequacies from a theistic standpoint have already been ably exposed by Professor William Dembski – see here and here), which I referred to as substance dualism, thought control dualism and formal-final dualism. I then examined the six assumptions used in KeithS’s split-brain argument from the perspective of each of these versions of dualism.

What is a split-brain operation?

Before I go on, I’d like to provide a brief scientific explanation of what a split-brain operation is. The information below is taken from a Web page created by the Psychology Department at Macalester College (bold emphases are mine):

In a normal brain, stimuli entering one hemisphere is rapidly communicated by way of the corpus callosum to the other hemisphere, so the brain functions as a unit. When the corpus callosum of an individual is severed, leaving a split brain, the two hemispheres cannot communicate. In some forms of epilepsy a seizure will start in one hemisphere, triggering a massive discharge of neurons through the corpus callosum and into the second hemisphere. In an effort to prevent such massive seizures in severe epileptics, neurosurgeons can surgically sever the corpus callosum, a procedure called a commissurotomy. If one side of the brain can no longer stimulate the other, the likelihood of severe epileptic seizures is greatly reduced.

Answering KeithS’s questions on split brain patients

In this post, I’d like to discuss and respond to KeithS’s reductio ad absurdum argument. He begins by posing three questions, based on actual cases of split-brain patients, described in the medical literature:

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with one arm and defended her with the other, what did the soul want to do? Is the soul guilty of attacking her? Does the soul get credit for defending her?

2. If the right hemisphere knows something that the left hemisphere doesn’t, then does the soul know it? What if it’s the other way around, with the left hemisphere knowing something that the right hemisphere doesn’t?

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, what did the soul believe? Was the soul a theist or an atheist?
[NOTE: KeithS is alluding here to a case discussed by the neurologist Dr. V. S. Ramachandran in a video lecture in 2006, about a split brain patient who was asked to point to “Yes,” “No” or “I don’t know,” in response to a series of questions, and whose right hemisphere, when shown the question, “Do you believe in God?”, directed the patient to point to “Yes,” while the patient’s left hemisphere, in response to the same question, directed the patient to point to “No.”]

I might add another interesting case which I’ve come across, relating to a patient named Paul S. (whose case history is discussed in detail on a Macalester College Web page on split-brain consciousness), who underwent brain bisection in the 1970s, and whose right hemisphere (unlike that of most split-brain patients) was able to understand not only nouns, but also verbal commands and also questions, after surgery, and respond to these questions in writing, giving simple one-word answers:

Paul’s right hemisphere developed considerable language ability sometime previous to the operation. Although it is uncommon, occasionally the right hemisphere may share substantial neural circuits with, or even dominate, the left hemisphere’s centers for language comprehension and production. The fact that Paul’s right hemisphere was so well developed in its verbal capacity opened a closed door for researchers. For almost all split brain patients, the thoughts and perceptions of the right hemisphere are locked away from expression. Researchers were finally able to interview both hemispheres on their views about friendship, love, hate and aspirations.

Paul’s right hemisphere stated that he wanted to be an automobile racer while his left hemisphere wanted to be a draftsman. Both hemispheres were asked to write whether they liked or disliked a series of items. The study was performed during the Watergate scandal, and one of the items was Richard Nixon. Paul’s right hemisphere expressed “dislike,” while his left expressed “like.”

(Reference: Atkinson, Rita L., Introduction to Psychology, Eleventh Edition , Harcourt Brace College Publishers, Orlando, c. 1993.)

The case of Paul S. is fully described in an article by Joseph E. LeDoux, Donald H. Wilson and Michael S. Gazzaniga, titled, A Divided Mind: Observations on the Conscious Properties of the Separated Hemispheres (Annals of Neurology 2:417-421, 1977). I’ll quote a few relevant excerpts here:

The question of whether the essence of human consciousness can be represented bilaterally in the split brain patient has so far remained unanswered. The following observations on a new patient, Patient P. S., may help to resolve the issue. For the first time, it has been possible to ask subjective questions of the separated right hemisphere and to witness self-generated answers from this mute half-brain. This opportunity was made possible by the fact that linguistic representation in the right hemisphere of our patient is greater than has been observed in any other split-brain patient. In addition to an extensive capacity for comprehending written and spoken language, the right hemisphere, though unable to generate speech, can express its mental content by arranging letters to spell words [12]…

Results

The right half-brain spelled “Paul” in response to the question “Who are you!” When requested to spell his favorite girl, the right hemisphere arranged the Scrabble letters to spell “Liz.” The right hemisphere spelled “car” for his favorite hobby. When the right hemisphere was asked to spell his favorite person, the following was generated: “Henry Wi Fozi.” (Henry Winkler is the actor who plays Fonzie.) The right hemisphere generated “Sunday” in response to the question “What is tomorrow?” When asked to describe his mood, the right hemisphere spelled out “good.” Later, in response to the same question, the left spelled “silly.” Finally, the right hemisphere spelled out “automobile race” as the job he would pick. This contrasts with the frequent assertion of the left hemisphere that he will be a “draftsman.” In fact, shortly after the test session, when asked what he would like to do for a living, the left hemisphere said, “Oh, be a draftsman, I guess.” … Finally, it should be noted that on each of these right hemisphere trials the patient was unable to name the lateralized information, thus confirming that the left hemisphere did not have access to the critical information.

Discussion

It is important to reemphasize that these responses were self generated by the right hemisphere from a set of infinite possibilities. The only aid provided to the right hemisphere was the two complete alphabets from which he could select letters at will…

Each hemisphere in P. S. has a sense of self, and each possesses its own system for subjectively evaluating current events, planning for future events, setting response priorities, and generating personal responses…

On a day that this boy’s left and right hemispheres equally valued himself, his friends, and other matters, he was calm, tractable, and appealing. On a day when testing indicated that the right and left sides disagreed on these evaluations, the boy became difficult to manage behaviorally.

I therefore propose to add two more questions to KeithS’s list:

4. What did Paul S.’s soul want to be, an automobile racer or a draftsman?

5. Did Paul S.’s soul support or oppose President Richard Nixon?

These are all fair questions, and they deserve straight answers.

Sir John Eccles on split brain cases

I’ll begin by examining what the late Nobel Prize-winning neurophysiologist Sir John Eccles, a modern substance dualist, had to say about split-brain cases.

To begin with, I would invite readers to take a look at this diagram, taken from Eccles’ 1979 Gifford Lectures on The human psyche. As readers can see, the main channel of communication between the (disembodied) conscious self and the brain is via the dominant left hemisphere, but there is also a limited degree of communication with the minor right hemisphere. Next, here is a diagram of communications to and from the brain and within the brain, after the corpus callosum has been severed. Communication from the conscious self to and from the brain is now exclusively via the dominant left hemisphere.

In his 1979 Gifford lectures on The human psyche, Sir John Eccles describes the performance of the two hemispheres of the brain, after a split brain operation:

[T]he left (speaking) hemisphere has a linguistic ability not greatly impaired. It also carries a good memory of the past linked with a good intellectual performance and with an emotional life not greatly disturbed. However it is deficient in all spatial and constructional tasks. By contrast the right hemisphere has a very limited linguistic ability. It has access to a considerable auditory vocabulary, being able to recognize commands and to relate words presented by hearing or vision to pictorial representations. It was also surprising that the right hemisphere responded to verbs as effectively as to action names. Despite all this display of language comprehension, the right hemisphere is extremely deficient in expression in speech or in writing, which is effectively zero. However, in contrast to the left hemisphere, it is very effective in all spatial and constructive tasks and it is also proficient in global recognition tasks.

After reviewing some investigations by Roger Sperry et al. (1979) on two split-brain patients that were designed to test for aspects of self-consciousness in the right hemisphere, Eccles was forced to acknowledge:

It can hardly be doubted that the right hemisphere has at least a limited self-consciousness.

But then he went on to add:

These tests for the existence of mind and of self-conscious mind [in the right hemisphere – VJT] are at a relatively simple pictorial and emotional level. We can still doubt if the right hemisphere has a full self-conscious existence. For example, does it plan and worry about the future, does it make decisions and judgements based on some value system? These are essential qualifications for personhood as ordinarily understood (Strawson, 1959; Popper and Eccles, 1977, Sects. 31 and 33)…

I would agree with DeWitt’s (1975) interpretation of the situation after commissurotomy:

Both minor and major hemispheres are conscious in that they both, no doubt, have the basic phenomenal awareness of perceptions, sensations, etc. And they both have minds … in that they exhibit elaborated, organised systems of response hierarchies, i.e., intentional behaviour. But in addition I would conjecture that only the major hemisphere has a self; only the language utilising brain is capable of the abstract cognising necessary in order to be aware of itself as a unique being. In a word, only the major hemisphere is aware of itself as a self.

This corresponds to the situation in real life, where the associates of the patient find no difficulty after the operation in regarding it as the self or person that it was before the operation. The patients themselves would of course concur, but they do have a problem arising from the splitting of the conscious mind. There is the difficulty in controlling the movements emanating from the activity of the right hemisphere with its associated mind. These movements are completely beyond the control of the conscious self or person that is exercised through the left hemisphere. For example they refer to their uncontrollable left hand as their ‘rogue hand’.

It would seem that this interpretation of DeWitt conforms with all the observational data on the commissurotomy subjects, but avoids the extreme philosophical difficulties inherent in the hypothesis of Puccetti that even normally there is a duality of personhood – ‘two persons in one brain’ as he provocatively expresses it.

Eccles died in 1997. More recent studies have shown that both hemispheres of the brain are extensively involved in self-recognition, and that only the right hemisphere possesses the further ability to recognize familiar others (see Lucina Q. Uddin et al., “Split-brain reveals separate but equal self-recognition in the two cerebral hemispheres”, Consciousness and Cognition 14, 2005, pp. 633–640). In an article titled, Self-Awareness and the Left Hemisphere: The Dark Side of Selectively Reviewing the Literature (Cortex, (2007) 43, 1068-1073), Alain Morin argues forcefully that it is a mistake to equate self-recognition (the ability to recognize oneself in a mirror) with self-awareness, which requires a deeper awareness of one’s current emotions, goals, values and thinking patterns. Even the much-vaunted “Theory of Mind” (or the recognition that other minds exist out there in the real world) fails to exhaust self-awareness – as Morin puts it, “It is very likely indeed that one needs first to access one’s own mental self before one can ponder about others’ potentially comparable inner life” (p. 1069). Morin finds that self-awareness is widely distributed across both sides of the brain, but suggests that if anything, it is the left hemisphere (and not the right hemisphere, as argued recently by some authors) which predominates in self-awareness. Elsewhere, Morin argues for the notion of a relation between inner speech and self-awareness, and he concludes: “one must not neglect the role of language (i.e., inner speech) in self-awareness — an activity deeply associated with normal functioning of the left hemisphere.” (Right hemispheric self-awareness: A critical assessment, Consciousness and Cognition 11 (2002) 396–401.)

In another paper, titled, “The split-brain debate revisited: On the importance of language and self-recognition for right hemispheric consciousness” (Journal of Mind and Behavior (2001) 22 (2):107-118), Morin elaborates his argument for the significance of inner speech in self-awareness. Inner speech, he writes, allows us to “incorporate other persons’ potential views of ourselves in our self-talk and gain an objective vision of ourselves which facilitates self-observation” and “address comments to ourselves about ourselves, as others do towards us.” Referring to the mute right hemisphere, he writes: “Certainly it can experience an emotion, but without inner speech I suggest that it might not clearly know that it is experiencing it.” Morin concludes his discussion of split brain cases as follows:

My position is that two unequal streams of consciousness (i.e. self-awareness) emerge out of the transection of the forebrain commissures…. [T]his analysis incorporates empirical evidence (1) regarding the importance of language (inner speech) for self-awareness, and (2) concerning the legitimacy of self-recognition as an operationalization of self-awareness.

Morin adds that in his opinion, the case of Paul S. (discussed above) is “the only convincing case of real full double self-awareness in a split brain patient,” probably owing to the fact that this patient suffered early brain injury in the left hemisphere at the age of two, which led to his language abilities being bilateralzed. Morin regards it as an open question as to whether Paul S. actually has “two independent streams of inner speech – two concurrent but different self-conversations” (p. 531). For my part, I would regard such a claim as doubtful: the extent of Paul S.’s right-hemispheric language abilities amounted to comprehension of simple verbal commands and questions (in oral form), the ability to read single words and the ability to spell single words with Scrabble letters. That’s hardly an argument for the existence of a second independent streams of inner speech in the right brain.

I conclude that Sir John Eccles’ empirical claim that the conscious self is predominantly linked to the left hemisphere of the brain remains a highly defensible position which will probably turn out to be verified over the next few decades, whatever one may think of Eccles’ interactionist substance dualism.

A substance dualist’s answers to five tricky questions on split brain patients

We can now answer the five questions posed above, from the standpoint of Sir John Eccles’ modern version of Descartes’ substance dualism. It is important to note that for Eccles, the terms “self” and “soul” were more or less inter-changeable, as when he wrote: “I am constrained to attribute the uniqueness of the Self or Soul to a supernatural spiritual creation” (Evolution of the Brain: Creation of the Self, Routledge, paperback, 1991, p. 249), and he went on to liken the body and brain to a computer built by genetic coding, while “the Soul or Self is the programmer of the computer” (pp. 249-250).

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with one arm and defended her with the other, he attacked her with his left hand (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) while simultaneously trying to protect her with his right arm (which is controlled by the left hemisphere). Since the conscious self interfaces with the brain only via the dominant left hemisphere after a split-brain operation, what the man’s soul wanted to do was to defend his wife – an act for which he gets credit. The man is not morally responsible for what his rogue left hand does, as it is controlled by the right hemisphere, which is no longer controlled by the conscious self.

Indeed, Eccles famously suggested in The Self and its Brain (Berlin: Springer International, 1977, p. 329) that a homicide committed by the left hand of a split brain patient (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) would be manslaughter rather than murder!

2. If the right hemisphere knows something that the left hemisphere doesn’t, then the conscious self (or soul) doesn’t know it. But if If the left hemisphere knows something that the right hemisphere doesn’t, then the conscious self knows it.

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, the patient’s soul, I am sorry to say, didn’t believe in God. In the case described by Dr. Ramachandran, all the patient had to do was point to “Yes” or “No”, when asked, “Do you believe in God?” But that behavior is not enough to warrant the attribution of a belief to someone, in the way in which that word is properly applied to rational beings. A belief is pre-eminently something which you may be called upon to justify, and state your reasons for. The patient’s right hemisphere couldn’t say why it believed in God; nor could it defend its point of view against objections. Hence it could hardly be said to have a belief in the proper sense of the word. It may have had a residual belief in God from early childhood, when people are unable to vocalize the grounds for their beliefs, but since the patient, as an adult, came to consciously reject that belief, then the patient’s soul, or conscious self, will be held liable for this rejection and judged accordingly.

4. Paul S.’s soul or conscious self wanted to be a draftsman, since that is the answer given by his left hemisphere.

5. Paul S.’s soul supported President Richard Nixon, since his left hemisphere expressed a liking for the man.

How would a thought control dualist answer these five questions?

One of the main differences between substance dualism and thought control dualism is that the former identifies the soul with the highest part of a human being – the conscious self – whereas the latter regards the soul as a hierarchical structure which informs the body at multiple levels, the highest of which (rational thought) is immaterial. In other words, thought control dualism, like Professor Edward Feser’s formal-final dualism, is hylemorphic: it regards the soul as the essential form of the body.

What that means is that according to thought control dualism. my lower mental states (e.g. sensations, desires) are just as much “mine” as my higher mental states (e.g. acts of reasoning, understanding and will). However, I am only morally culpable for those states which are subject to rational control.

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with his left hand (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) while simultaneously trying to protect her with his right arm (which is controlled by the left hemisphere), what his soul wanted to do on a rational level was to protect his wife. However, on a sub-rational level, he may well have had some feelings of hostility towards his wife. These feelings would also be attributable to his soul, but because the movement of his left hand was no longer subject to reason, he would not be morally culpable for attacking his wife with his left hand, as it is controlled by the right hemisphere.

A thought control dualist would agree with Eccles’ contention that a homicide committed by the left hand of a split brain patient (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) could not be called murder.

2. If the right hemisphere knows something that the left hemisphere doesn’t, then a thought control dualist would say that the soul does know it, but not in a manner which is amenable to reason and critical thinking. (It would be interesting to see what happened if the right hemisphere of a split brain patient was exposed to someone dressed up as a ghost. How, I wonder, would the patient react? My guess is that unless the patient was previously skeptical of ghosts, it would be impossible to convince the right hemisphere that what it had seen was not a ghost.)

What the dominant left hemisphere knows, on the other hand, is amenable to critical thinking and reflection. Such knowledge belongs to the highest faculties of the soul.

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, a thought control dualist would say that the soul retained, at some level, a habit of belief (derived from childhood, perhaps) in God. However, such a belief is no longer amenable to reason in the split brain patient. By contrast, the belief expressed by the patient’s left hemisphere is a belief that the patient could justify and give reasons for, if asked to do so. Thus it counts as a bona fide belief.

Sometimes, it is true, we may think we believe that something is true because we consciously avow it, but at a subconscious level, we intuitively recognize that what we consciously declare is mistaken. (I know a man who once told me of two ex-Catholics he knew, who publicly denied the faith, but who re-expressed a belief in it after they’d had a few beers!) In a person with a normally functioning brain, reason and intuition doubtless have lots of little tussles of this sort, and they usually manage to resolve them eventually. The truly sad thing about the split brain patient is that this kind of resolution cannot take place. In the case of the left-brain atheist discussed by KeithS, the patient’s right brain may know on an intuitive level that there is a God, but the bridge between intuition and reason has been severed. God, being merciful, will take the patient’s impairment into account.

4. Paul S.’s soul wanted to be a draftsman on a rational level, but on a more primitive, feeling-based level, his soul wanted to be an automobile racer.

5. Paul S.’s soul liked President Richard Nixon on a rational level, but disliked him on an intuitive level.

How would a formal-final dualist answer the above five questions?

The principal difference between thought control dualism and form-final dualism is that on the former account, the soul can interact with the brain and initiate neural processes, while on the latter account, the soul does not make neurons in the brain move: the soul explains the “what” and the “why” of a voluntary human action, but not the “how.” Thus thought control dualism, like substance dualism, would attempt to identify locations in the brain which are still capable of interacting with the rational soul (whose choices, like its acts of understanding, are disembodied acts), whereas formal-final dualism, which rejects such an interactionist account, would attempt to identify those actions performed by split-brain patients which still manifest rationality (and hence are morally praiseworthy or blameworthy), on an operational level – i.e. by performing relevant tests, such as carefully probing the patient’s stated reasons for his/her actions.

Bearing this in mind, we can answer the five questions above from the perspective of the formal-final dualist, as follows:

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with his left hand (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) while simultaneously trying to protect her with his right arm (which is controlled by the left hemisphere), both acts are attributable to different levels of the soul, as each human being embodies a psychic hierarchy. However, the action that should be counted as rational (and hence morally evaluable) is the one that the man himself can give a reason for, both before and after performing the act (this last condition is vitally important, in order to prevent confabulation, where patients make up reasons to cover their embarrassment over sudden bodily movements of theirs which they are unable to explain).

2. If one hemisphere knows something that the other hemisphere doesn’t, then a formal-final dualist would say that the soul knows it, but not in a manner which is fully integrated with the entire body. Recall that for a formal-final dualist, the soul is essentially the form of the body. If the form is badly damaged, in a way that affects cognitive functions, then the patient’s awareness may be localized, rather than spread over the global brain.

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, a formal-final dualist would try to ascertain which stated belief was properly integrated into the patient’s life. For example, if the patient made a habit of praying every night and going to church on Sundays, then that would be a good reason to take seriously the right hemisphere’s avowal that it still believed in God, notwithstanding the left hemisphere’s professed atheism. Deeds speak louder than words.

4. There may be different levels of the soul on which Paul S.’s soul wants to be a draftsman and an automobile racer, but the one that deserves to be called most authentically Paul S.’s wish is the one which he doggedly pursues over a period of several years, as people do when undertaking long-term rational plans.

5. Regarding President Nixon, it’s very hard for a formal-final dualist to ascertain what a split brain patient’s feelings were towards a politician, unless that patient had devoted a fair bit of time towards getting Nixon elected – or alternatively, ejected from office. In the absence of such rational, goal-oriented behavior, a formal-final dualist might be inclined to reject both hemispheres’ professed likes and dislikes as mere preferences, as opposed to rational choices. Of course, if Paul S. was able to say why he liked Nixon, than that kind of behavior would count as evidence, but only if it cohered with the rest of his political views. Since Paul S. was only eleven when Le Doux, Wilson and Gazzaniga wrote their famous article about him in 1977, some skepticism is warranted. (His views now would of course count as evidence, as well.)

In this post, I have tried to answer KeithS’s questions about split brain patients from the perspective of three distinct varieties of dualism. I shall leave it there, and let readers judge for themselves between these versions of dualism. What I have attempted to show, however, is that split brain patients do not pose an insoluble problem – or even a particularly pressing one – for believers in an immaterial soul.

Readers wanting to learn more about the history of how Christian and other dualistic philosophers tackled the problem of split brain patients may like to consult Minds Divided: Science, Spirituality, and the Split Brain in American Thought by Stephen E. Wald (ProQuest LLC, ISBN-13: 2940032034322, eISBN-13: 9780549633204), some of which can be viewed online here).

Comments
@Barb, my old friend. I'm really not interested in discussing with you anymore, not because our discussion has rached an impasse or something, but because there's nothing new going on anymore, everything has already been said.
This is mostly what I am hearing from Proton’s argument. He wishes to behave as he likes without any moral accountability.
I'm sad you see me that way, especially after all that we've discussed, but I guess it's extremely hard for a Christian to imagine that someone can choose to behave morally out of genuine empathy and not out of divine fear. That makes Christians sad people somehow, for they'll never now how it feels to have true, genuine and unconditional empathy for fellow human beings, one of the many gifts that comes with the understanding of the nature of choices. I don't believe free will is false because it's convenient for me (like Christians like to think), I believe so because I see people's choices constrained by their circumstances everytime I look out to the world. You may call me inmoral, but out of the two of us, the one who can say that he truly feels empathy, undertanding and love for humanity, is me (unlike selfish Christians, who behave morally to save themselves first and help others second).Proton
July 21, 2013
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Proton writes,
All these arguments are laughable:
Yes, mostly because they are logically invalid.
1-I assume free will is real, because religion says so.
No. A person may assume free will is real and be an atheist or agnostic. Your first argument rests on a faulty premise.
2-Now let’s imagine and twist our minds around all sorts of speculative scenarios where free will can work, even in extreme cases like split brains, and then use them to sustain my beliefs.
This premise makes little sense.
Christians are as rational as Darwinists.
This conclusion is based on faulty premises (see above) and is therefore logically invalid.
Is that idea of God based on empirical evidence, or just blind acceptance of what the Bible says? *crickets* (probably)
Not necessarily. You stated in the other thread that we can infer design from examining creation (Romans 1:20). Who are you to state that other religious people, including Christians, don’t do likewise? Do you have knowledge of all Christians or of all religions? No? Try again.
The main reason I believe free will is false is because there’s an obvious correlation between people’s backgrounds/circumstances and their choices, which implies that choices are not ultimately free, as they’re always constrained by higher forces.
And, as it has been pointed out to you repeatedly, people can and do make choices freely regardless of their background circumstances. We all are influenced in one way or another by people (friends and family), circumstances (growing up poor or wealthy), culture, society, and religion.
If free will was true, then there should be a 0% probability of guessing what choice a person would make in a certain situation, however that’s obviously not true, because we can see that in the same situation people tend to do one thing over another, and therefore we can predict how likely is certain individual to make certain choice under a specific situation.
Albert Einstein is frequently quoted as saying that “insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.” And some people do make the same choices over and over again. Does this disprove free will? No. You are blatantly ignoring the fact that many people behave differently given the same set of circumstances. “Doubting one’s free will may undermine the sense of self as agent,” Dr. Vohs and Dr. Schooler concluded. “Or, perhaps, denying free will simply provides the ultimate excuse to behave as one likes.” (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/science/22tier.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) This is mostly what I am hearing from Proton’s argument. He wishes to behave as he likes without any moral accountability.Barb
July 21, 2013
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Hi ericB, Thank you for your post. In response to your question about the soul: you seem to be assuming the existence of a distinction between "mind" (nous) and "spirit" (pneuma) within the human person which I would regard as questionable, on both philosophical and Biblical grounds. I would say that the human soul is a spirit, and that it is also the form of the human body. A form, being a principle of unity, can have no parts: if it did, it would need something else to hold it together. Because the human soul (unlike that of plants and non-human animals) is a spirit, it is capable of immaterial, non-bodily operations such as reasoning, understanding, choosing and loving (in the sense of caritas). "Mind" (nous) refers to the soul's capacity to understand the nature of things - i.e. grasp their forms. "Spirit" (pneuma) refers to the fact of the soul's being created for a supernatural end: everlasting beatific union with God. I am aware that there are some Christians who espouse a tripartite division of the human being into body, soul and spirit. However, the Scriptural evidence adduced to support this view is extremely slim: usually it rests on nothing more than an appeal to 1 Thessalonians 5:23 ("May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ") and Hebrews 4:12 ("For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.") Concerning 1 Thessalonians 5:23: in Luke 10:27 we are told to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind" (see also Deuteronomy 6:5). That would seem to support a four-fold division of man. Which is it to be, four or three? As for Hebrews 4:12, I would say that the point of the verse is not that it's possible to separate soul from spirit, but that God's Word is alive, powerful and sharp. Regarding the distinction made in some Scriptural passages between "soul" and "spirit," here's how the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains it, in paragraph 367:
Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly", with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming. The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. "Spirit" signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.
From a Catholic perspective, there's an excellent article by Tim Staples over at Catholic Answers, entitled, Is Man Bipartite or Tripartite? which discusses the Biblical evidence in great detail. The article goes on to say that the "fleshly man" (sarki'nois) spoken of in some Scriptural passages means the man who is dominated by his "lower nature" or passions, and who therefore cannot please God, whereas the “spiritual man” (pneumatikos’) is one who allows himself to be led by the Spirit of God. Food for thought. You mentioned 1 Corinthians 14:1-9. As far as I can tell, however, there's nothing here to support a distinction between mind and spirit within a human being, as the "Spirit" being spoken of is the spirit of God, rather than the spirit of man. Thus we are told to "follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy" (verse 1) and that people who speak in tongues "utter mysteries by the Spirit" (verse 2). You also contrasted Luke 2:52, which tells us that Jesus "grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man," with John 8:58, where Jesus declares, "before Abraham was born, I am!" But Jesus is referring here not to His human nature (which cannot have pre-existed Abraham) but to His Divine nature. None of us possesses a Divine nature. Human persons like ourselves possess only a human nature. I fully agree with you, however, that there is a need for people to be more precise when using words like "soul" and "spirit." I'd also agree with your conclusion that the human spirit does not depend on a brain for its existence, and that it is capable of being supernaturally illuminated by God (e.g. in a post-mortem state, or during a revelation).vjtorley
July 21, 2013
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The word "soul" is unhelpfully ambiguous. Does it refer to the human "spirit" (Greek pneuma) or to the human "mind" (Greek nous)? It is sometimes used either way and the difference affects how one answers the questions. The apostle Paul was clear about the fact that his human spirit and his conscious human mind were distinct, and that his spirit had access to knowledge and understanding that his mind did not have. He made this distinction explicitly in his discussion of the activity of speaking in tongues, i.e. one's spirit expressing a language that one's mind does not know. See 1 Cor. 14:1-19. Christianity has always affirmed that the conscious human mind of Jesus developed gradually as it does for any other human (e.g. increasing in wisdom, Luke 2:52). At the same time, Christians have also affirmed that the spirit of Jesus has existed eternally and did not come into existence with the incarnation as a human (e.g. "Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:56-58). So the distinction between what a conscious human mind knows and what one's spirit knows is also directly applicable to the distinction between what the human mind of Jesus knew (e.g. at some times asking questions about what he did not know), and what he knew by spirit (e.g. knowing information that a mere human mind on its own would not have perceived through the physical senses). I don't have any problem at all with thinking that operations on the brain can affect the operation of the human mind (nous), just as drugs or alcohol can affect the minds operation, or diseases like dementia. None of this indicates anything about the nature of the spirit (pneuma) or whether there is an existence to one's nature that is not corporeal. For example, dementia can erode the ability of the mind to recognize people or even comprehend consciously ideas affirmed by Christianity. This does not mean that one's spirit has lost a connection of trust previously formed with God. So these split brain results are interesting in what they may tell us about the brain and possibly about aspects of the conscious human mind. But they tell us virtually nothing about the spirit, which does not depend on a brain.ericB
July 21, 2013
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Proton, you seem to think you are above empirical rebuke from quantum mechanics in your 'no free will' claim for reality. Let me be the first to assure you that you are not above rebuke from empirical evidence. Moreover for you to deny free will any place in how humans interact with reality is 'not even wrong' as to being way things actually are! Proton, to give you a clue as to the monumental hurdle you are facing in quantum mechanics, free will is actually ‘built into’ quantum mechanics as one of the starting assumptions. i.e. You will literally have to overturn all of quantum mechanics in order to deny free will any objective place in our perception of, and interaction with, reality: An experimental test of all theories with predictive power beyond quantum theory – May 2011 Excerpt: Hence, we can immediately refute any already considered or yet-to-be-proposed alternative model with more predictive power than this. (Quantum Theory) http://arxiv.org/pdf/1105.0133.pdf Can quantum theory be improved? – July 23, 2012 Excerpt: Being correct 50% of the time when calling heads or tails on a coin toss won’t impress anyone. So when quantum theory predicts that an entangled particle will reach one of two detectors with just a 50% probability, many physicists have naturally sought better predictions. The predictive power of quantum theory is, in this case, equal to a random guess. Building on nearly a century of investigative work on this topic, a team of physicists has recently performed an experiment whose results show that, despite its imperfections, quantum theory still seems to be the optimal way to predict measurement outcomes., However, in the new paper, the physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (*conscious observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free choice, free will, assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory. The findings imply that quantum theory is close to optimal in terms of its predictive power, even when the predictions are completely random. http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html i.e. it is found that there is a required assumption of ‘free will’ in quantum mechanics. Moreover, it was shown in the paper that one cannot ever improve the predictive power of quantum mechanics by ever removing free will as a starting assumption in Quantum Mechanics! Of related note as to how solid quantum mechanics is as a description of reality: Philosophy and Physics in the Kadison-Singer Conjecture – 21 June 2013 Excerpt: Kadison-Singer Conjecture. Let A be a discrete maximal abelian subalgebra of B(H), the algebra of bounded linear operators on a separable Hilbert space. Let p : A -> {C} be a pure state on that subalgebra. Then there exists a pure extension p’ : B(H) -> {C} of p to all of B(H), and that extension is unique. Proof of this statement provides a very nice assurance, that our experiments really are enough to describe quantum systems as we understand them. http://www.soulphysics.org/2013/06/philosophy-and-physics-in-the-kadison-singer-conjecture/ Moreover, as if the preceding was not devastating enough for the ‘no free will’ position, denying free will undermines our ability to reason itself thus the ‘no free will’ position undermines itself as to being logically coherent: Sam Harris’s Free Will: The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It – Martin Cothran – November 9, 2012 Excerpt: There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state — including their position on this issue — is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn’t logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre066221.htmlbornagain77
July 21, 2013
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@vjtorley Sorry for my tone, I just find it irritating when religion is put before evidence. Darwinists bend their observations in matters of evolution, but are mostly very rational when discussing free will or morality (Lizzie comes to mind for example). Christian IDs are very rational when discussing ID topics, but when the topic of free will/morality comes into play, I start seeing that rationality gets a bit blurry as the religious bias kicks in.
If you have a good reason to reject free will, then by all means let’s hear it.
The main reason I believe free will is false is because there's an obvious correlation between people's backgrounds/circumstances and their choices, which implies that choices are not ultimately free, as they're always constrained by higher forces. If free will was true, then there should be a 0% probability of guessing what choice a person would make in a certain situation, however that's obviously not true, because we can see that in the same situation people tend to do one thing over another, and therefore we can predict how likely is certain individual to make certain choice under a specific situation. This means that choices are ultimately constrained, and therefore not free, even if they look like they are.
Finally, you state that you believe in an immaterial soul but express skepticism about its interaction with the material world. OK, now I’m curious. What kind of dualism do you believe in?
I think property dualism, probably emergent materialism, but I've never thought of it, it might get clearer as I go. Also I think my views are similar to Gnosticism, but only in the sense that there's a material world (the one we live in) and a spiritual/eternal world (a place for souls in the afterlife). ------------------------------ @BB77: Experiments in quantom mechanics do nothing to disprove and obvious (observable) correlation between people's backgrounds/circumstances and their choices. To prove free will true, you must prove that such correlation is unexistent or a coicidence. Either scenario is crazy. ------------------------------ @Querious: I apologize, when I mean "religion" I mean Christianity specifically. ------------------------------- @KF
Proton, if we are not capable of significant responsible choice, we can neither be rational nor moral, we would just be passive meat processors drifting based on whatever cluster of genetic, psychosocial etc conditioning happened to hit us at key points.
The "passive meat processor" thing is kind of strong, maybe something you'd want to say to an atheist. But I'm a theist and an ID and I see purpose in the way our brain works, so I don't believe we're just computers made of meat, especially because computers don't feel or dream. I believe we were specifically designed to imagine, to feel and to dream, and therefore such things have an important, or maybe the most important, place in the Creation.
if we are not capable of significant responsible choice, we can neither be rational nor moral
Free will is irrelevant to morality (or the value of any human feeling) unless you have a preexisting idea of morality matching a religious belief which imposes that we should be held accountable for our actions.
You are treading into self referential incoherence here.
Why? Because I say that my choices are predetermined and yet I'm making the choice to write this? That might be incoherent under YOUR definition of choice (in which nothing constrains them, meaning, choice = free will, a religiously biased idea). There's no incoherence under a deterministic view of what choices are. Don't impose your religiously motivated definition of choice as a truth.Proton
July 21, 2013
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Mark: My answer would definitely be the second one: "One, presumably rather tormented, soul which acts against itself from time to time, e.g. both trying to kill its wife and defend her against itself." Tormented, certainly. A split brain does not seem to be the most relaxing state I can imagine. It should be clear, at this point, That I do not agree completely with VJ's views. I would have clarified that in some post to him, but I was already committed to this discussion with you, so I preferred to go on with the discussion that had already been started. I want to state again that I have not used the term "soul" in this discussion, exactly because I don't want to deal with the philosophical problems connected to the concept of substance. I prefer to remain at a level where the facts of consciousness are treated empirically, starting from what we perceive of ourselves. My deep conviction of the uniqueness, identity and continuity of the self derives from many observations, most of them inner ones, that you would probably simply dismiss as "not evidence". My certainty that the self is immaterial, instead, is even more empirical. It does not come from any philosophical argument about substance or soul, but from the empirical certainty that I have that arrangements of matter, or of any other purely objective aspect of reality, can never explain the existence of a subject, of subjective representations, of their unity given by the unity and continuity of the self. IOWs, I treat here the self (as I have always done in mt ID arguments) as an empirical reality, the perceiver of all the many subjective representations unified by the same subject, and I maintain that: a) We are empirically certain that the self exists (we perceive it by our own self) b) It is absolutely obvious that no explanation for subjective experiences can be given at a purely material level, and I am sure that it will never be given, because the formal properties of material objects, and in general of objective realities, are completely different from the formal properties of the subjective world, and there is no chance at all that the second mat be "reduced" to the first, not even by the most fanciful reductionist. So, the self does exist, and it is immaterial, at least in the sense that arrangements of matter can never explain it. If it is also a substance, that can be called soul, is a matter for philosophy and religion. Regarding free will, I am indeed very open to discussion. I can admit that free will can operate much better in the presence of a normal brain. I can conceive that free will may be a function of the self that, in some measure, requires a functional interaction with external reality through the brain. However, in principle even a self that attacks his wife and "at the same time" defends her, could still be exercising some free will in both cases, and it is not absolutely obvious that one action is good and the other is bad. As you should know, if you have followed at least some of my many discussions about free will, I don't conceive of free will as something tied to the final action, but rather to the way the self innerly reacts to real possibilities that it has, given the global input it receives moment by moment. So, paradoxically, attacking the wife could still be an action that inevitably occurs even after a good use of free will by the self: all depends on what the self perceives, and how it reacts, and what its real possibilities of "variation of response" are at that moment. There is no doubt that having to express its connection to reality through the right brain is something that changes very much the context and the realistic possibilities of action of the self at that moment. It makes also very difficult for us to judge what happens, since our conscious waking personality usually works mainly through the left brain. I would simply say that an ideal relationship with outer reality, in the human condition, requires that the self may use both brains, working as they were meant to work. Other situations (including a split brain, but not only that) certainly change very much the scenario, especially if we want to judge the moral meaning of actions. I suppose that is a rather trivial concept, well known even in legal matters.gpuccio
July 21, 2013
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Gpuccio I was mostly just trying to clarify which way you were going with the split-brain. If you believe actions done out of free will are the result of a soul there seem to be three options: * A second soul was attached as a result of the operation. You have dismissed that as "possession" * One, presumably rather tormented, soul which acts against itself from time to time, e.g. both trying to kill its wife and defend her against itself. This seems to be your option. * VJ appears to be saying the soul is responsible for the left hemisphere and the right hemisphere is soulless. All of them seem a bit implausible but my real question is how do can anyone know which is the correct choice including the various souls involved?Mark Frank
July 21, 2013
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Ehm, Errata corrige: "against an immaterial test", in the previosu post, should obviously be "against an immaterial self". I hope that's not too much of a freudian slip :)gpuccio
July 21, 2013
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Mark: I will answer here your last post in the old thread, just to keep the discussion more "fresh". My point is not really one about continuity of self. It is about identity. Compare this situation to monozygotic twins. A Christian who believes the self inhabits the body at the point of fertilisation must accept that it is possible for two selves to share a common past (if not memories). The question is how do we know that is not happening in the case of a split brain patient? OK, the point is obviously both identity and continuity. I believe the two things are strictly related. Let's talk monozygotic twins. My view is that the original zygote is "inhabited" by a single self. Then, as soon as the division into two embryos takes place, the second one becomes "inhabited" by another self, and the original one remains with its unique self. IOWs, the original embryo "generates" a new one, with a new self. So, there is no common past (no more than between a mother and her child), and no common memories (I doubt physical memories are stored in the cells at that level). The only way to interpret a split brain scenario in that sense, would be, as Sal has pointed out, to assume some form of "possession". I don't believe that is what takes place. Not exactly like that relationship – one can’t help having special feelings for the poor sod who is going to take on a rather pathetic middle-aged body with no idea who he is or where he came from . But I think we cannot imagine what it would be like to have no memories at all. We probably think it is a bit like forgetting all the semantic knowledge ever had. But memory is much more than semantic memory. The way we perceive the world; the things we attend to; the emotions created by a smell; they are all heavily moulded by our past experience. What we would have to imagine is being a like a new-born baby in a middle-aged body and I just can’t do that. Let's say that I can agree with you that the whole of one's memories can never be completely cancelled. But those memories are sometimes very deep, and they have not much to do with the "conscious" memories of the waking state, those that usually structure ego and personality. I see the mind more or less like an iceberg. The small part that emerges is our "conscious" ego, our personality, our more "available" memories. But most of what we really are is beneath. So, the case of the split brain could be seen as an iceberg with two different emerging parts, with different properties and faculties. But most of the deep mental features remain common. The self is even beyond the submerged part of the iceberg. It can retain access to the deepest parts of personality, and than it is forced to express either through one "peak" (the left emisphere) or through the other (the right emisphere). When it seems that the two things happen at the same time, it is simply through a process of time split multitasking. An important clarification is that I never said that the split brain case is evidence for an immaterial self. It was Keiths, I believe, and in general your part, that stated that it was evidence against an immaterial test. I have only pointed out that that is not true, and that the split brain scenario is perfectly compatible with a single immaterial self. My evidences, or simply arguments, for an immaterial self that makes possible and unifies all subjective representations are of different kind. I am afraid this kind makes it difficult to have a debate. I want evidence. You say I have rely on intuition. How we do take that forward if my intuitions are different from yours? I don't agree. I don't consider intuitions as personal subjective things. For me, intuitions are the basic constituents of cognition. For example, all rational processes are based on a few basic shared intuition, first of all the intuition of "meaning", and obviously, all the fundamental intuitions that make logic possible. Those intuition can be shared, and one can help another to clarify those intuitions in his own experience. The same is true, IMO, for the fundamental intuitions about consciousness, its properties and its processes. So, I do believe that we can certainly go on having a debate, and that intuitions, more or less shared, can certainly be part of it. Maybe we will not agree, but we cab still debate. That's part of the game.gpuccio
July 21, 2013
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So essentially you link the soul/self to the left hemisphere - not the right. I am curious about the status of the right hemisphere. It is capable of quite complicated actions included simple language processing. It seems to be something way beyond involuntary actions such as breathing. Would you say it has free will? I suspect you will say not. But how can you tell? What does it lack that indicates it has not free will.Mark Frank
July 21, 2013
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VJT: Good effort, as usual. I note the link to the 1979 Eccles Gifford Lecture is not sufficiently specific, could you help us? My own thought is that we should recall that a useful architectural model of the cybernetics of a rational actor engaging the external world created by Derek Smith [a researcher in the field] involves two interacting tiers of controller, an I/O loop controller, and a supervisory controller responsible for longer term, purposive acts and plans or intents, etc. Architectural discussions on the effects of severing a nexus between two controlling centres, producing divergence of action, I find interesting, especially because of the well known challenge of being in two minds or having two factions in a decision-making body. The discussion of a rogue left arm is particularly interesting, as it shows a dominance of impulsivity. The ex Catholics that a few beers on reverted, look like conflicted personalities with the underlying intuitive emerging when the first effects of alcohol are present. (Sounds, too, like the saying about there being no atheists in foxholes.) I am also reminded of how when life and considerable property were on the line, the Space Shuttle designers ended up preparing a multiple processor controller, and a voting resolution mechanism, with IIRC, a final reserve casting vote if there was deadlock. So, evidence of an internal debate may point to a similar pattern. My own inclination is that there is no good -- decisive -- reason to conclude that we have anything here that cannot be explained on a multiple member control architecture, with communication and control difficulties; here induced by physical cutting of communication channels. As for the issue of an immaterial substantial soul, I think there is more at work than information and programming at some level. I would suggest that given the impact of subtle inputs in highly non-linear and divergent systems, a governing mechanism that uses subtle influences, whether quantum or classical or both, is feasible. Chaotic systems are predictable/controllable in the short-run, but not the long run where subtle differences lead to unpredictable divergence. Cutting control paths would normally have significant impact in such a system. Not least, by distort6ing perceptions, leading to delusion-driven decisions and acts,a s well as ungoverned impulses leading to triggered rogue behaviour. (And, isn't that pretty much what happens so often when men seek the aid of alcohol in seduction?) KF PS: Proton, if we are not capable of significant responsible choice, we can neither be rational nor moral, we would just be passive meat processors drifting based on whatever cluster of genetic, psychosocial etc conditioning happened to hit us at key points. You are treading into self referential incoherence here.kairosfocus
July 21, 2013
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Proton, Why would you assume that all religions have the same views regarding the soul? Personally, I believe that the soul is our personality. It's easily observable, but difficult or impossible to measure scientifically. There's a passage in the Bible that states
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
This passage seems to acknowledge a difference between the soul, the spirit, and the heart (mind). This is a different model than the beliefs and controversies that the Greeks of antiquity wrestled with. For example
The view found in Plato and in later thinkers, influenced by him, is essentially the same cosmological dualism as is found in later Gnosticism. Like Gnosticism, Platonism is a dualism of two worlds, one the visible world and the other an invisible "spiritual" world. As in Gnosticism, man stands between these two worlds, related to both. Like Gnosticism, Platonism sees the origin of man's truest self (his soul) in the invisible world, whence his soul has fallen into the visible world of matter. Like Gnosticism, it sees the physical body as a hindrance, a burden, sometimes even as the tomb of the soul. Like Gnosticism, it conceives of salvation as the freeing of the soul from its entanglement in the physical world that it may wing its way back to the heavenly world.
My point is that Hellenistic beliefs are profoundly different than Biblical Christian beliefs, and you shouldn't lump them together.Querius
July 20, 2013
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Proton, Thank you for your post. I'm a little puzzled by the tone, as you state that you believe in an immaterial soul but adopt a somewhat mocking stance towards religion ("-I assume free will is real, because religion says so," "use them to sustain my beliefs," etc.) Unless you're a Gnostic, a New Ager or a Platonist, I find it hard to imagine where you're coming from. Please allow me to explain the purpose of my last two posts. They were written in order to answer an objection to traditional religious belief, by KeithS. Since the objection was directed at belief in an immaterial soul, and most people who share that belief also believe in free will, I don't see anything problematic about assuming for argument's sake that it exists. If you have a good reason to reject free will, then by all means let's hear it. As for God being merciful, once again, this is an assumption I made because KeithS asked whether the man's soul would be held accountable for attacking his wife or whether it would get credit for defending her - an explicitly theistic question. It was only natural that I should point out in reply that if you're going to assume a God, it's reasonable to assume a merciful, all-loving one. Scripture and reason both say as much. Finally, you state that you believe in an immaterial soul but express skepticism about its interaction with the material world. OK, now I'm curious. What kind of dualism do you believe in?vjtorley
July 20, 2013
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Proton if I read you correctly you are denying free will altogether. If so, you have a little matter within Quantum Mechanics to deal with: "Thus one decides the photon shall have come by one route or by both routes after it has already done its travel" John A. Wheeler Alain Aspect speaks on John Wheeler's Delayed Choice Experiment - video http://vimeo.com/38508798 Here’s a recent variation of Wheeler’s Delayed Choice experiment, which highlights the ability of the conscious observer to effect 'spooky action into the past', thus further solidifying consciousness's centrality in reality. Furthermore in the following experiment, the claim that past material states determine future conscious choices (determinism) is falsified by the fact that present conscious choices effect past material states: Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past - April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a "Gedankenexperiment" called "delayed-choice entanglement swapping", formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice's and Bob's photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice's and Bob's photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor's choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. "We found that whether Alice's and Bob's photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured", explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as "spooky action at a distance". The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. "Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events", says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html In other words, if my conscious choices really are just merely the result of whatever state the material particles in my brain happen to be in in the past (deterministic) how in blue blazes are my choices instantaneously effecting the state of material particles into the past?,,, Please also consider the fact that free will is not physically 'causing' the particles to be in any particular state but free will of consciousness is only choosing which way consciousness shall perceive a particular particle to be at a particular time. Not a minor point to consider in developing proper causal relations in the experiment! As well, I consider the preceding experimental evidence to be a vast improvement over the traditional 'uncertainty' argument for free will, from quantum mechanics, that had been used to undermine the deterministic belief of materialists: Why Quantum Physics (Uncertainty) Ends the Free Will Debate - Michio Kaku - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFLR5vNKiSw Of note: the mental choice of 'intentionality', which is an aspect of free will, is also discernible at the macro-level above the micro-level of the quantum world : Scientific Evidence That Mind Effects Matter - Random Number Generators - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4198007 Here are some of the papers to go with the preceding video; Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research - Scientific Study of Consciousness-Related Physical Phenomena - publications http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/publications.html I once asked a evolutionist, after showing him the preceding experiments, "Since you ultimately believe that the 'god of random chance' produced everything we see around us, what in the world is my mind doing pushing your god around?" Thus free willbornagain77
July 20, 2013
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Not to mention dissociative identity disorder (formerly known as multiple personality disorder). I seem to remember that these personalities might or might not be aware of each other. So, which hemisphere, left or right, are involved with these personalities? There are often more than two. Does this mean that people who suffer from DID have more than two brain structures involved, or is it possible that multiple personalities can be associated with the left hemisphere for example?Querius
July 20, 2013
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All these arguments are laughable: 1-I assume free will is real, because religion says so. 2-Now let's imagine and twist our minds around all sorts of speculative scenarios where free will can work, even in extreme cases like split brains, and then use them to sustain my beliefs. Christians are as rational as Darwinists.
God, being merciful, will take the patient’s impairment into account.
Is that idea of God based on empirical evidence, or just blind acceptance of what the Bible says? *crickets* (probably)
split brain patients do not pose an insoluble problem – or even a particularly pressing one – for believers in an immaterial soul.
Actually split brain patients pose no problem at all for believers in an inmaterial soul (like me). The concept in trouble is the interaction (or total lack there of) of such soul with the material world.Proton
July 20, 2013
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Even supposing the splitting of the brain created two conscious persons (not that I really believe it), it doesn't disprove the immaterial character of the soul. It might call into question some ideas about Christian theology, but it doesn't disprove the immateriality of the soul. As much as I hesitate to bring this up, in the New Testament we have cases of demon possession. Certainly it is possible that two streams or even a legion of stream of consciousness can occupy an individual. But this is theological speculation, not science...scordova
July 20, 2013
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Dr. Torley, I was wondering if you could elaborate on how hemispherectomies would play out in what you have thus far outlined for 'self' since 'intellect' seems unaffected by removal of the left or right hemisphere? Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies - Dr. Ben Carson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994585/ Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics' Lives: Excerpt: "We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child's personality and sense of humor,'' Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining; In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study: "Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications." http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.html Strange but True: When Half a Brain Is Better than a Whole One - May 2007 Excerpt: Most Hopkins hemispherectomy patients are five to 10 years old. Neurosurgeons have performed the operation on children as young as three months old. Astonishingly, memory and personality develop normally. ,,, Another study found that children that underwent hemispherectomies often improved academically once their seizures stopped. "One was champion bowler of her class, one was chess champion of his state, and others are in college doing very nicely," Freeman says. Of course, the operation has its downside: "You can walk, run—some dance or skip—but you lose use of the hand opposite of the hemisphere that was removed. You have little function in that arm and vision on that side is lost," Freeman says. Remarkably, few other impacts are seen. ,,, http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but-true-when-half-brain-better-than-whole Related note: Self-awareness in humans is more complex, diffuse than previously thought - August 22, 2012 Excerpt: Self-awareness is defined as being aware of oneself, including one's traits, feelings, and behaviors. Neuroscientists have believed that three brain regions are critical for self-awareness: the insular cortex, the anterior cingulate cortex, and the medial prefrontal cortex. However, a research team led by the University of Iowa has challenged this theory by showing that self-awareness is more a product of a diffuse patchwork of pathways in the brain – including other regions – rather than confined to specific areas. The conclusions came from a rare opportunity to study a person with extensive brain damage to the three regions believed critical for self-awareness. The person, a 57-year-old, college-educated man known as "Patient R," passed all standard tests of self-awareness. He also displayed repeated self-recognition, both when looking in the mirror and when identifying himself in unaltered photographs taken during all periods of his life. "What this research clearly shows is that self-awareness corresponds to a brain process that cannot be localized to a single region of the brain,",,, http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-08-self-awareness-humans-complex-diffuse-previously.htmlbornagain77
July 20, 2013
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Dr. Torley, amazingly well done article. Makes me ashamed for the short terse objections of 'straw man' that I was responding to keiths with :$ .,, Hopefully, keiths will respectfully consider your well laid out reasoning and humbly realize that his split brain argument, like all other arguments for atheism ultimately turn out to be, is not anywhere near as strong as he personally held it to be. I know it is a long shot to hope for such a humble admission from an atheists, but hey, I believe in miracles! :)bornagain77
July 20, 2013
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