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Do we need a context to identify a message as the product of an intelligent being?

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In today’s short post, I shall argue that (a) there are at least some messages which we can identify as the product of an intelligent agent, regardless of their linguistic and social context, and (b) there is no context in which it would be reasonable for us to conclude that a message visible to everyone was a hallucination.

What prompted this discussion

In a post titled Signature in the cell?, Professor Edward Feser argued that no message, in and of itself, could warrant the inference that it was the product of an intelligent agent, without a knowledge of the context of the message. Referring to the hypothetical scenario in which a “Made by Yahweh” message was discovered in every human being’s cells, Feser wrote:

If we’re to judge that Yahweh, rather than extraterrestrial pranksters, hallucination, or some other cause, was behind such an event, it is considerations other than the event itself that will justify us in doing so.

The reference to “hallucination, or some other cause” (presumably a natural one) as a possible explanation for the “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells led me to infer that Feser was acknowledging the legitimacy of a hyper-skeptical stance here – a position for which I criticized him in a subsequent post. Feser wrote a follow-up post in reply, in which he clarified his position:

I neither said nor implied that it would be “perfectly rational” to interpret phrases like the ones in question [e.g. the “Made by Yahweh” message in every cell – VJT] as hallucinations or as something other than a product of intelligence… What I said is that determining what to make of such weird events would crucially depend on epistemic background context, and that if we concluded that God was responsible (as of course we well might), then that epistemic background context would be doing more work in justifying that judgment than the weird events themselves would be.

In a comment attached to a recent post on Professor Feser’s Website, I pressed him to answer two simple questions of mine:

…[A]s an ID theorist, I happen to think it’s absolutely obvious that we can identify some messages as the work of an intelligent designer, regardless of context… From my reading of your [earlier] post, it seemed to me that you were saying that context was essential when drawing the inference that a message was the work of an intelligent agent. I would profoundly disagree.

I’d like to bury the hatchet, so I’ll ask you two questions:

1. Do you agree that if a message saying “Made by _____” were discovered in every human’s cells, it would be irrational to explain away the discovery as a mass hallucination, regardless of whether the message referred to God, Quetzalcoatl, or Steve Jobs as its author?

2. Do you agree that if the message were suitably long and specific (say, 100 characters of perfectly grammatical English with no repetition), it would be irrational not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, regardless of the message’s context?

As we’ll see below, Feser’s answer to both questions was “No.”
Feser replied:

…[O]ther readers have already pointed out what is wrong with your questions. Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be. If we describe various possible contexts in enough detail, we can certainly see how they would make a clear answer possible. That’s why there’s nothing remotely skeptical about what I said. Give us a specific context and sure, we can decide “This suggested interpretation is just indefensible” or “That suggested interpretation is extremely plausible.” But it’s silly to say “Let’s abstract from all context and then ask what the most probable source of the phrase is.” As Mike Flynn pointed out above, there’s no such thing as the most probable source absent all context.

Feser continued:

BTW, Vincent’s attempt to wriggle out of the problem context poses for his position is like certain point-missing attempts to solve the “commonsense knowledge problem” in AI [artificial intelligence – VJT]. As Hubert Dreyfus argues, it makes no sense to think that intelligence can be reduced to a set of explicitly formulated rules and representations, because there are always various context-dependent ways to interpret the rules and representations. To say “Oh, we’ll just put the ‘right’ interpretation into the rules and representations” completely misses the point, since it just adds further rules and representations that are themselves subject to alternative context-dependent interpretations.

Vincent is doing something similar when he tries to come up with these goofy examples of really long messages written in the cell. It completely misses the point, because that’s just further stuff the import of which depends on a larger context. It also completely misses the point to shout “Skepticism!”, just as an AI defender would be completely missing the point if he accused Dreyfus of being a skeptic. There’s nothing skeptical about it. We can know what the context is and thus we can know what the right interpretation is; we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context.

What is a context, anyway?

Remarkably, nowhere in his post does Professor Feser attempt to define what he means by a context – a curious omission. So I’m going to go with a standard dictionary definition: “the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.” I should mention that there is another definition for context: “the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.” However, in the case under consideration, we are looking at a short isolated message, with nothing preceding or following it. So the questions we need to confront are: do we need to attend to “the circumstances that form the setting” for the purported message, in order to rationally conclude that it is (a) not a collective hallucination we are all having, and (b) from an intelligent source? Feser contends that we do, and I maintain that we do not.

Feser’s absurd epistemic claim: there are some contexts in which hallucination may be a reasonable explanation for the discovery of a purported message in every human’s cells

I’d like to go back to a remark Feser made above:

Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be.

What Feser is saying here is that there are at least some contexts in which it would not be unreasonable [i.e. it might be reasonable] for us to conclude that a purported message discovered by scientists in every human being’s cells was in fact a hallucination. This, I have to say, is outright nonsense.

In order to see why it’s nonsense, let’s imagine a scenario which is as generous to Professor Feser’s case as it is possible to be. Let’s suppose that a worldwide magnetic storm is playing havoc with people’s brains, causing them to hallucinate. It has been claimed that magnetic stimulation of the brain can trigger religious hallucinations, although the evidence for this claim is very thin. But let’s suppose for argument’s sake that this claim is true. During the magnetic storm, some scientists suddenly announce the discovery of a “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells. Other scientists around the world rush to confirm the claim. Could they all be seeing things in their laboratories? Could mass hallucination be a rational explanation for this sudden discovery of what appears to be a message in our cells?

No, it couldn’t – unless all the world’s scientists have not only started hallucinating, but lost their ability to reason, as well. But that wasn’t the scenario envisaged by Feser: his assertion that he can imagine at least some contexts where it would not be unreasonable to conclude that a purported message was a hallucination presupposes that the people drawing this conclusion still possess the use of reason, even in these far-fetched contexts.

One obvious way in which scientists could confirm that the message was real – even during a magnetic storm that was playing havoc with their perceptions – would be to use double-blind testing, with a control sample of similar-looking cells (say, synthetic cells, or perhaps cells from another species) that did not contain the “Made by Yahweh” message. (A control sample of synthetic cells might contain no message at all, or alternatively, a different message – “Made by Craig Venter” – might be inserted into the cells.) If testing on different scientists produced consistent results – e.g. if they all reported seeing the same message in the same cells – then the hallucination hypothesis would be decisively ruled out, as an explanation.

Interpretation is not the same thing as decoding: why the commonsense knowledge problem is irrelevant to the Intelligent Design project

In his reply to my questions, Feser alluded to the work of AI researcher Hubert Dreyfus, who in a book titled Mind over Machine (Free Press, 1986) which he co-authored with Stuart Dreyfus, defined the commonsense knowledge problem as “how to store and access all the facts human beings seem to know” (1986, p. 78). As Wikipedia notes, “The problem is considered to be among the hardest in all of AI research because the breadth and detail of commonsense knowledge is enormous.”

As we’ve seen, Feser contends that because the correct interpretation of a rule invariably requires contextual knowledge, any attempt to infer that a purported message is in fact the product of an intelligent agent, apart from all context, is doomed to failure. But what Feser is assuming here is that the identification of a purported message as the work of an intelligent agent requires a correct interpretation of that message. As an Intelligent Design advocate, I disagree: all it requires is the decoding of that message, and it may not even require that. (If the message could be independently shown to be both highly specific and astronomically improbable, I believe it would be rational to infer on these grounds alone that an intelligent agent was most likely responsible for producing the alleged message, even if we had no idea what it was about.) Hence Professor Feser’s assertion that “we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context” is beside the point.

Decoding a message is very easy, if it is written in the script of a language we already understand: all we need to do is read each word of the script and confirm that it conforms to the grammatical and spelling rules of the language in question. Depending on the language in question, the code we use when reading the words – something we all learned to do at school – may be either a phonic code (for alphabetic scripts), a syllabic code, a logographic code (for ideograms) or a pictographic code. Even if sentence turns out to be grammatically correct, but semantically nonsensical, like Noam Chomsky’s “Colorless green ideas sleep furiously”, decoding it is still a relatively straightforward affair. And if we found such a message inscribed on the walls of every human cell, we should have no hesitation in concluding that some intelligent agent was responsible, even if we didn’t know who that agent was.

(Note: I should like to make it clear that I do not regard people’s ability to read texts written in their own native language as part of the context of a purported message in that language. Defining “context” in this way would make the term absurdly broad. Rather, I would see the ability to read a language as a presupposition of there being any messages in that language at all. The term “context” refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message, and does not include the ability to decode a script.)

Decoding a message is harder when it is written in a language we understand, but where the message is encrypted, using a cipher. In such cases, we might think that at least some background knowledge was essential, in order to decode the message. However, there have been occasions when ciphers were reconstructed through the power of pure deduction – for example, the German Lorenz cipher and the Japanese Purple code. Having successfully decoded the message, it would be the very height of irrationality not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, even if we knew nothing of the message’s context. For instance, the message might say, “The weather is sunny,” but in spy-talk that might really mean: “The coast is clear: we can proceed with our plan.” But even if we had no idea of the message’s true import, we could still legitimately infer that it originated from an intelligent source, once we had decoded it.

When the message is written in an unknown language, decoding is complicated by the mathematical fact that there’s always some cipher that can be used to transform an unknown message into any string of English characters you want. This point was made by one of my critics, named Scott, who argued: “100 characters of perfectly grammatical English wouldn’t look like any such thing to anyone who didn’t already read English. For that matter, given a hundred of anything, there’s some cipher according to which the series encodes any 100-character string you care to choose.” In practice, successful decoding of scripts in unknown languages, such as Linear A (used in Crete over 3,000 years ago), relies heavily on context-related clues. The question then arises: what should we conclude if astronauts found what appeared to be an inscription in an unknown language on the Moon or Mars? Without a context of any sort, could we still make the inference that the inscription came from an intelligent source?

I believe we can. A simple illustration will suffice. In 2013, two scientists writing in the journal Icarus argued that there were patterns in the genetic code of living organisms that were highly statistically significant, with features indicative of intelligence which were inconsistent with any known natural process. (The authors of the paper, Vladimir I. Cherbak of al-Farabi Kazakh National University of Kazakhstan, and Maxim A. Makukov of the Fesenkov Astrophysical Institute, list several categories of natural processes, and they are clearly familiar with the relevant scientific literature on the subject.) “Simple arrangements of the code reveal an ensemble of arithmetical and ideographical patterns of symbolic language,” they wrote. These features included decimal notation, logical transformation and the abstract symbol zero. Summing up, the authors argued:

In total, not only the signal itself reveals intelligent-like features – strict nucleon equalities, their decimal notation, logical transformation accompanying the equalities, the symbol of zero and semantic symmetries, but the very method of its extraction involved abstract operations – consideration of idealized (free and unmodified) molecules, distinction between their blocks and chains, the activation key, contraction and decomposition of codons. We find that taken together all these aspects point at artificial nature of the patterns.

The authors tentatively concluded that the decimal system in the genetic code “was invented outside the Solar System already several billions (sic) years ago.” (H/t: Max for correction to my wording.)

Regardless of whether the authors’ claims turn out to be true or not – and I’m not holding my breath – the point is that the identification of the signal they claimed to find in our genetic code was made on purely mathematical grounds, apart from all considerations of context. In order to rule out a natural (as opposed to artificial) source for the message, the only thing the authors needed to ascertain was whether it could be accounted for by known natural causes. One could always hypothesize the existence of a natural cause capable of generating these mathematical features, but the authors argue that the only reasonable inference to draw is that the signal they claim to find in the genetic code is an artificial one, generated by an intelligent source.

(I should point out here that our knowledge of what natural processes are capable of generating is not contextual knowledge, but scientific knowledge. As I stated above, the term “context” properly refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message. Our knowledge of processes occurring in Nature does not help us to do that.)

I conclude, then, that Professor Feser’s contention that the identification of a purported message as the product of an intelligent source cannot be made, apart from all context, is baseless and incorrect. I hope that Professor Feser will be gracious enough to acknowledge this in the future.

Comments
"It seems to me much of what we need to resolve is exactly what you mean by “physical discontinuity” RD, can you produce the effect "middle C, now" from a pin on a cylinder?Upright BiPed
August 21, 2014
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Hi Upright Biped, Thanks for the explanation. Sorry for the delay in response - sick dog :-(
We need a simple “robot” to talk to RD about, one where the parts and functions are bare and accessible to any observer.
Excellent idea.
On the other hand, I say that the playing of middle C is a regularity in a semiotic system, and that there is a necessary physical discontinuity between the arrangement of the representation and the functional effect it evokes in the system.
It seems to me much of what we need to resolve is exactly what you mean by "physical discontinuity". One could this interpret this as a discontinuity in physical causality, but that is apparently not what you mean. One could alternatively interpret this as meaning that when A is physically discontinuous with B, it means B cannot be reduced to A. I believe that is what you mean (although I may be wrong).
The presence of this discontinuity means that the product of translation obeys physical law, but is not determined by it.
Ok, this seems consistent with the idea B cannot be reduced to A, because A may have occurred without B occurring. Thus, while the occurrence of B is somehow initiated(?) by the physical event A, B (or at least some property of B) is not determined by it.
Instead, he’s countered that the human inventors of these systems most likely operate by physical law themselves (i.e. no one can prove otherwise) therefore making his case.
Not exactly. Rather, I say that it is unknown whether or not humans operate by physical law, and the matter cannot (at least presently) be settled by scientific inquiry.
In any case, the one remaining pin on our music box cylinder plucks its tine on the comb, and the vibrations of the tine causes middle C to ring out into the air space surrounding the music box.
OK, got it. Now, to my understanding, the following is an equivalent system in this context: In an underground cave, unobserved by humans, a stalagtite is dripping water. The drips fall into a pocket worn into the rock floor of the cave, and produces a splash with a distinctive pitch. The pitch is lowering over the years as the pocket gets wider, but at the moment the primary harmonic is around 261Hz (middle C).
To the system, the pin on the cylinder is a representation of middle C.
You go wrong right here. To the system, the pin on the cylinder is just a pin on the cylinder. It is no more a representation than the drops of water are representations of middle C. It is only in the mind of a human being, when designing or analyzing the system, that the pin is considered a representation.
The tuning of a particular tine to particular musical note is a physical protocol.
Likewise, this is only when you consider the intent of the human designer (or the concepts of a human analyzing the system). As far as the system is concerned, the tuning of the tine is merely a physical attribute that is determined by the length of the tine. Just like the pitch of the water splash is determined by the surface area of the little water puddle in the cave.
The vibrating air pressure around the music box is the effect.
Well, yes.
Question: Can the pin determine that middle C rings out? Answer: No. The pin can neither cause the tone nor determine its pitch. That is accomplished solely by the vibration of the tine,...
Yes, that's right. The pitch of the tine determines that middle C rings out.
... tuned to specified frequency.
It depends on whether "tuned" implies an adjustment by a conscious person. If not, then yes, both the pitch of the tine and the pitch of the puddle are "tuned". Otherwise, then just the music box pitch has been "tuned".
Why does RD think that the pin on a cylinder is physically continuous with air pressure fluctuating at ~261Hz at a specific point in time? He can’t get from one to the other without the protocol in the system.
[I'd like to say that the term "physically continuous" is misleading here, if I finally understand what you're saying. You can say that the pin does not determine the pitch, but if you say there is a "physical discontinuity" it is too ambiguous. Just for future discussions.] Anyway, again, the word "protocol" might imply a conscious engineering choice, but in the case of the water hitting the puddle, there was no human intervention. So there is no "protocol" that I can see - that exists only in the mind of a human designer or reverse-engineer, not in the physical system itself. This is exactly the point I have been trying to make with my machine that RANDOMLY maps buttons to lights. There is no intentional protocol, but there can be a meaningful mapping in the mind of a human who observes the system.
And from the material make-up of the system itself, any number of descriptions can be made, but absolutely none of them will explain why a particular pin is mapped to a particular note on the music scale.
And this isn't true at all. The explanation for the note is: (1) For the music box, the length of the tine, which was in turn determined by the human who built the music box; and (2) For the cave puddle, the note is explained by how much rock has eroded from the pocket in the floor of the cave, changing the surface area of the puddle.
Yet, without this mapping (i.e. specification), the function of the system would not be possible.
Well, no, the specification is only in the mind of the human. The function of the system proceeds whether or not a human calls the connection a "mapping".
Not only is his claim false, but it doesn’t even address the issue.
On the contrary - although it's not easy to decipher your meaning (since you use some odd terms like "discontinuity" that I've not seen in either philosophical or scientific descriptions), I believe that my rebuttal is spot on. What you've failed to see is that "discontinuities" and "protocols" are ways that human beings understand the operation of systems - they are not intrinsic properties of the systems themselves. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 21, 2014
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SB: You have not answered my questions. RDF:
That is an obvious lie
No, it isn’t. It is the truth. You have not even come close to answering my questions. I asked you why you believe that a novel cannot come from ink and paper. You didn’t answer. You simply restated your claim that it “doesn’t.” The word “doesn’t” is an obvious attempt to have it both ways. You don’t want to say that it “can” come from ink and paper or you will sound like an idiot, but you don’t want to say that it “cannot,” or you will be acknowledging the law of causation, which of course, you reject. So you use the weasel word, “doesn’t,” in an attempt to have it both ways. Meanwhile, you have given no reason to support your claim. More importantly, I asked you why, given your rejection of universal causation and the attendant belief that anything can come from nothing, you suddenly claim that a code doesn’t come from ink and paper. Why can it come from nothing, but not from ink and paper? The irony here is that you attack UB's model on the laughable grounds that causation has, for you, and just for the moment, suddenly become an unforgiving law and allows for no exceptions--that same law that you flout when it gets in your way. When you answer my questions, I will answer your question.StephenB
August 21, 2014
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SB:
RDF: WHAT? I reject that physical mud can produce lightning bolts,
SB: If, as you believe, a universe can come from nothing, why do you not also believe lightning bolts can come from mud? After all, the mud has more to work with than nothing and is being asked to produce much less.
*crickets*Phinehas
August 21, 2014
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edit: "the human inventors of these systems most likely operate by physical law themselves (i.e. no one can prove otherwise)" = operate completely deterministicallyUpright BiPed
August 21, 2014
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We need a simple “robot” to talk to RD about, one where the parts and functions are bare and accessible to any observer. The Music Box The common music box is a perfect example. It’s a simple device with two critical parts. It has a cylinder with pins on it, where each pin is a representation of a note to be played at a certain time in a melody. Also there is metal comb, with each tine on the comb is tuned to a specific note on a musical scale. Let us say that I file off every pin on the cylinder, but one. Now each time the cylinder rotates – pling – middle C rings out. RD says that the playing of middle C is a product of physical law because he can explain the operation of the system, without remainder. This fact is intended to indicate something of importance to RD, and he’s explained that it’s the basis by which he’s refuted my argument. For him, the case is closed. On the other hand, I say that the playing of middle C is a regularity in a semiotic system, and that there is a necessary physical discontinuity between the arrangement of the representation and the functional effect it evokes in the system. The presence of this discontinuity means that the product of translation obeys physical law, but is not determined by it. I’ve described the parts of the system one by one, explaining why this is the case, but those details are not something he has much to say about. Instead, he’s countered that the human inventors of these systems most likely operate by physical law themselves (i.e. no one can prove otherwise) therefore making his case. I’ve told him that the actions of humans (whether they operate deterministically or not) doesn’t change the reality of the discontinuity. If human are completely deterministic, they create machines that require a physical discontinuity within them, otherwise those systems could not function. I’ve also pointed out that humans themselves are the products of translation, and the discontinuity in that system indisputably remains. His response was to ignore these facts and claim victory anyway. In any case, the one remaining pin on our music box cylinder plucks its tine on the comb, and the vibrations of the tine causes middle C to ring out into the air space surrounding the music box. To the system, the pin on the cylinder is a representation of middle C. The tuning of a particular tine to particular musical note is a physical protocol. The vibrating air pressure around the music box is the effect. - - - - - - - - - - - Question: Can the pin determine that middle C rings out? Answer: No. The pin can neither cause the tone nor determine its pitch. That is accomplished solely by the vibration of the tine, tuned to specified frequency. Why does RD think that the pin on a cylinder is physically continuous with air pressure fluctuating at ~261Hz at a specific point in time? He can’t get from one to the other without the protocol in the system. And from the material make-up of the system itself, any number of descriptions can be made, but absolutely none of them will explain why a particular pin is mapped to a particular note on the music scale. Yet, without this mapping (i.e. specification), the function of the system would not be possible. RD says he’s “refuted [my] argument by pointing out robots are physically reducible without remainder”. In any instance where information is translated into a functional effect, he is simply wrong. Not only is his claim false, but it doesn’t even address the issue.Upright BiPed
August 21, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: Hopefully you are not going to try and resurrect your time-wasting debate over absolute certainty here – because we aren’t talking about absolute certainty at all. SB: You either allow for the possibility that ink and paper can produce a code or you don’t. You either know that it can’t happen or you don’t. Just choose one of those two options. If you are not sure, just say so.
Oh, no - not this again. Whenever you are afraid that you've lost an argument (or a few arguments) you try and dive into this epistemological morass. Are you 100% absolutely certain that the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow? You shouldn't be. But it is a very reasonable thing to say that we know it will indeed rise in the East tomorrow. Likewise, it is a very reasonable thing to say that we know ink and paper can't produce a code.
You haven’t given me any reasons.
Yes, I've given plenty of them - and each of them perfectly obvious. [Here Stephen again tries to change the subject entirely, because he is afraid of responding to my take-down of UB's argument. Sorry, no dice.]
We are not talking about something or someone “using” physical processes to produce a novel. We are talking about the processes themselves producing a novel.
Sure, that's fine: It not reasonable, however, to rule out that “physio-chemical” processes (can we just say physical, please?) in general can write novels, because it might be the case that human beings write novels and are purely physical processes.
You have not yet answered my questions.
That's an obvious lie, but I do understand your motivation. I've completely refuted UB's argument, and you have nothing left but to try and change the subject and avoid responding to what I've said. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 20, 2014
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RDF
I’m trying hard to believe you are debating in good faith here.
I appreciate your patience.
Hopefully you are not going to try and resurrect your time-wasting debate over absolute certainty here – because we aren’t talking about absolute certainty at all.
You either allow for the possibility that ink and paper can produce a code or you don't. You either know that it can't happen or you don't. Just choose one of those two options. If you are not sure, just say so.
That notwithstanding, we both know it is reasonable to rule out that ink and paper write novels, for all the reasons I just gave.
You haven't given me any reasons. We already know that you believe that effects can occur without proportional causes. Why would this case any different?
WHAT? I reject that physical mud can produce lightning bolts,
If, as you believe, a universe can come from nothing, why do you not also believe lightning bolts can come from mud? After all, the mud has more to work with than nothing and is being asked to produce much less.
It not reasonable, however, to rule out that “physio-chemical” processes (can we just say physical, please?) in general can write novels, because it might be the case that human beings write novels by means of purely physical processes.
Whoa, cowboy, you put the cart before the horse. We are not talking about something or someone "using" physical processes to produce a novel. We are talking about the processes themselves producing a novel.
Excellent! Your turn!
You have not yet answered my questions.StephenB
August 20, 2014
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We know what ink does – it obeys what we know of fluid dynamics, flows under the influence of gravity, etc. We know what paper does – nothing, it just sits there.
We do? We know this? Actually the paper and ink are changing chemically---the paper is yellowing and getting brittle as it oxydizes, perhaps accelerated by ultaviolet light, and the ink is drying out and the mixture might also be separating. The C-14 is decaying probablistically into C-12, tracking of the age of any organic materials.
Liquids and materials like paper have no capacity to store or process information, and couldn’t possibly generate grammatical language.
And of course the words written on the paper store the thoughts of the intelligent author in a symbolic form that requires coding and decoding the information, sorta like DNA.
So why would anyone think that these things could ever produce a novel? It’s ridiculous.
Just like evolution, after billions and billions of years across millions and millions of planetary systems, certain droplets of ink, through purely physical processes such as impact scattering and capillary action permeate small parts of the paper, and then evaporate, leaving behind coloring agents such as carbon (lamp black, early on). While extremely unlikely, the process eventually must have produced "grammatical language" and the novels, poetry, and art that are undeniably in existence today.
It's ridiculous
Yes, I agree. -QQuerius
August 20, 2014
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Upright BiPed:
Build your mechanical bird. Give it stereo cameras for eyes, and actuators on its wings and claws. Now teach it to land on a fencepost by sight.
RDFish:
Ok, done.
liarMung
August 20, 2014
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RDFish @ 437:
I think you need to drop this line of argument, and face the fact that I’ve refuted UB’s argument.
LoL. So, unlike Reciprocating Bill, who cannot even understand Upright BiPed's argument, you understand it well enough to refute it. I missed that post. Was it here in this thread?Mung
August 20, 2014
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Upright BiPed @ 315:
RD, Point out what words you don’t understand.
RDFish @ 316: "whine ...."Mung
August 20, 2014
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RDFish:
I’m trying hard to believe you are debating in good faith here.
Likewise RDFish, likewise. RDFish:
Hopefully you are not going to try and resurrect your time-wasting debate over absolute certainty here – because we aren’t talking about absolute certainty at all.
I can perhaps understand varying degrees of uncertainty, but varying degrees of certainty? Not so much. Absolute certainty is a redundancy. It's either certain or it isn't. "Absolute" adds nothing. But then you already knew that.Mung
August 20, 2014
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RDFish:
Remember, UB claimed that the operation of the machine contained irreducible discontinuities. If by “code” you mean the list that was written… what if I didn’t write the list, but simply kept it in my memory? What part of the system would be “irreducible” then?
lolMung
August 20, 2014
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Upright BiPed:
Just a quick note to thank Dio, WJM, SB and others for their kind words and encouragement.
Positioning statement.Mung
August 20, 2014
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Good grief. It looks like RD is still having conceptualization issues. And being arrogant about it. I'm busy right now. I'll try to return later this evening to post a reply. He's refuted nothing; he hasn't even addressed the issue.Upright BiPed
August 20, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
We have absolutely no reason to suspect that anything of the sort would ever happen. Sorry, but I didn’t ask you that question. My question is very simple: Do you rule out the possibility or do you allow for the possibility.
I'm trying hard to believe you are debating in good faith here. Hopefully you are not going to try and resurrect your time-wasting debate over absolute certainty here - because we aren't talking about absolute certainty at all. That notwithstanding, we both know it is reasonable to rule out that ink and paper write novels, for all the reasons I just gave.
Well, sure, I think it is ridiculous because I don’t think that any physio-chemical process could produce a code or, for that matter, a novel.
It not reasonable, however, to rule out that "physio-chemical" processes (can we just say physical, please?) in general can write novels, because it might be the case that human beings write novels by means of purely physical processes.
Since you think it can happen in general, why would you reject as ridiculous a particular instance of it, especially when you have yet to rule it out completely.
WHAT? I reject that physical mud can produce lightning bolts, but I do not rule out that some physical thing (i.e. clouds) can produce lightning bolts. I reject that physical neutrons can be conducted along a copper wire, but I do not rule out that some physical thing (i.e. electrons) can be conducted down a wire. I think you need to drop this line of argument, and face the fact that I've refuted UB's argument.
I will be happy to give you an answer to your question when you give me an answer to my question.
Excellent! Your turn! Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 20, 2014
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RDF
We have absolutely no reason to suspect that anything of the sort would ever happen.
Sorry, but I didn't ask you that question. My question is very simple: Do you allow for the possibility or do you rule it out completely, declaring it to be impossible?.
So why would anyone think that these things could ever produce a novel? It’s ridiculous.
Well, sure, I think it is ridiculous because I don't think that any physio-chemical process could produce a code or, for that matter, a novel. However, you do think it is possible for such a process to produce information and codes. The present example is just one of many. Since you think it can happen in general, why would you reject as ridiculous a particular instance of it, especially when you have yet to rule it out completely. On the one hand, you say it is ridiculous; on the other hand, you seem to be allowing for the possibility. This is why I am asking for a clear answer. If you do rule it out completely, that is, if you declare it to be impossible, on what basis do you do so? If, on the other hand, you allow for the possibility, then why do you also say that it is "ridiculous?"
Now, as always, I’ve answered your question.
No, you have not. You have simply repeated the assertion that prompted the question.
Will you concede that I have refuted UB’s argument by pointing out robots are physically reducible without remainder?
I will be happy to give you an answer to your question when you give me an answer to my question.StephenB
August 20, 2014
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RDF
We have absolutely no reason to suspect that anything of the sort would ever happen.
Sorry, but I didn't ask you that question. My question is very simple: Do you rule out the possibility or do you allow for the possibility.
So why would anyone think that these things could ever produce a novel? It’s ridiculous.
Well, sure, I think it is ridiculous because I don't think that any physio-chemical process could produce a code or, for that matter, a novel. However, you do think it is possible for such a process to produce information and codes. The present example is just one of many examples. Since you think it can happen in general, why would you reject as ridiculous a particular instance of it, especially when you have yet to rule it out completely. On the one hand, you say it is ridiculous; on the other hand, you seem to be allowing for the possibility. This is why I am asking for a clear answer. If you do rule it out completely, that is, if you declare it to be impossible, on what basis do you do so. If, on the other hand, you allow for the possibility, then why do you also say that it is "ridiculous?"
Now, as always, I’ve answered your question.
No, you have not. You have simply repeated the assertion that prompted the question.
Will you concede that I have refuted UB’s argument by pointing out robots are physically reducible without remainder?
I will be happy to give you an answer to your question when you give me an answer to my question.StephenB
August 20, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
In the mix of responses, you seem to have missed my question.
Yes, sorry.
Obviously, you believe that information can be derived from physio-chemical interactions, which is the point that UB’s argument (and other ID arguments) are meant to challenge.
I do not know whether the physical interactions that we currently understand are capable of producing information (at least what we're calling CSI here) or not. I have held this position from my first post here.
In responding to WJM, you agreed that the interaction of ink and paper (a physio-chemical process) doesn’t produce a novel (information).
Uh yes, that's right, Stephen.
As I pointed out, this response is not clear. Are you saying that we have no empirical evidence of it, but we cannot rule out the possibility?
We have absolutely no reason to suspect that anything of the sort would ever happen. We know what ink does - it obeys what we know of fluid dynamics, flows under the influence of gravity, etc. We know what paper does - nothing, it just sits there. Liquids and materials like paper have no capacity to store or process information, and couldn't possibly generate grammatical language. So why would anyone think that these things could ever produce a novel? It's ridiculous. Now, as always, I've answered your question. Will you concede that I have refuted UB's argument by pointing out robots are physically reducible without remainder? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 20, 2014
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Hi William J Murray,
1. Where did you establish that Darwin and Meyer used the same definition? Source, please.
He says it a lot. Here for example:
Stephen C Meyer: I argue this because of two things that we know from our uniform and repeated experience, which following Charles Darwin I take to be the basis of all scientific reasoning about the past. [ http://www.signatureinthecell.com/responses/response-to-darrel-falk.php ]
Sad that I know more about ID than you do, huh? :-)
2. Would you please refer to a definition of “canonical” that supports your apparent position that two quotes by two different scientists = “canonical”?
Oh good grief this is absolutely pathetic. I point out that while there is a perfectly clear meaning for energy, natural selection, random mutation, and all other explantory constructs in scientific theories, there is not even an attempt to provide one particular meaning for the word "intelligence". I gave you many examples of wildly different meanings for the word, all culled from posters on this very board. But you just can't admit it, so instead you start playing infantile games, challenging my use of some word I used that has nothing to do with our discussion. Forget about "canonical" and my argument doesn't change one iota. But "intelligence" is the sole explanatory concept of ID theory! I just got through with a strong refutation of UB's argument - which you found "irrefutable". I showed you that quite contrary to UB's argument, robots are completely reducible to physical cause without remainder, and without any "physico-chemical discontinuity" involved. And what is your response? Completely ignore it! Run away and hide, and start calling me a troll and asking me what science is and what "canonical" means. Give it up, Mr. Murray. You are looking very pathetic at this point. You should be quite ashamed. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 20, 2014
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vel:
“Your Honor, disregarding the example of my client who in the uniform and repeated experience of a vast majority of experts in the field is guilty of the this murder, there does not appear to be any evidence that he murdered anyone else, therefore he is innocent of the charges”
Judge: BWAAAAAHAAAAAAAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAAAAAAAAHAAHAHAHA. One more outburst like that and you will be in contempt of court.Joe
August 20, 2014
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velikovskys: "Your Honor, we don't need a trial at all. We can simply assume the very thing in question. After all, haven't you seen our list of expert witnesses. Let's just declare the defendant guilty of all charges and call it a day."Phinehas
August 20, 2014
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AB:
In fact, we are told that understanding this intelligence is not needed, and beyond our comprehension.
Hopefully you can provide me with an answer (or theory) on this other than the claim that ID is only interested in identifying design in nature, not the nature of the designer.
Obviously, you do know what ID says, and you were just making stuff up. ID doesn't make any claims about the nature of the designer, including that it is beyond our comprehension.Phinehas
August 20, 2014
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wjm Furthermore, is it not our uniform and repeated experience that only intelligent agents produce CSI-rich artifacts? Is it not our uniform and repeated experience that absent such intelligence (and disregarding the example in dispute, biological life), nature on its own does not appear to generate CSI-rich artifacts, such as mechanisms that employ signal translation and processing towards complex, useful ends? "Your Honor, disregarding the example of my client who in the uniform and repeated experience of a vast majority of experts in the field is guilty of the this murder, there does not appear to be any evidence that he murdered anyone else, therefore he is innocent of the charges" ,velikovskys
August 20, 2014
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Phineas: " AB: In fact, we are told that understanding this intelligence is not needed, and beyond our comprehension. Where? You are making stuff up now." What web site have you been reading? When I have asked questions like this, these are the answers I receive. But, please, I am interested in the nature of this proposed designer and a clear definition on intelligence in regard to ID. Hopefully you can provide me with a. Answer (or theory) on this other than the claim that ID is only interested in identifying g design in nature, not the nature of the designer.Acartia_bogart
August 20, 2014
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RDF:
In that cause, the mapping between this unusual pen and paper is deterministic. What’s your point?
I already said what my point was. I even prefaced it rather helpfully by saying, "My point was..." And you responded with, "The problem with your point..." And now you suddenly don't know my point? Perhaps if you had read and understood my point prior to responding, you might have avoided insisting it had a problem that it obviously did not have. Perhaps you then wouldn't need to feign ignorance to take focus away from the egg on your face. Honestly, I think that if you were the slightest bit open to the idea that information is not reducible to physicochemically determined processes (as dictated by the materialism that you claim you don't believe in), you wouldn't need to rely on nearly as much sophistry. This appears to be the block you stumble over again and again.Phinehas
August 20, 2014
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RDF:
Uh? The machine pairs, by virtue of its physical properties, button patterns with light patterns. Nothing in the machine contains any information other than those random pairings. But a person who associated certain button patterns with certain questions, and certain light patterns with answers, would see that the machine is a question-answering machine. Yet nothing in the machine is irreducible to physical cause.
See SA's response @422. I agree with his conclusion as well.Phinehas
August 20, 2014
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AB:
In fact, we are told that understanding this intelligence is not needed, and beyond our comprehension.
Where? You are making stuff up now.Phinehas
August 20, 2014
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The machine pairs, by virtue of its physical properties, button patterns with light patterns.
There is no physical law that associates button with light. There is no physical property in the machine that decided the patterns should follow the precise results of coin flips or to associate button and light with any pattern at all. The association/mapping,whether randomized or humanly-intelligible, was added to the machine. We're talking about a communication network from signal to mapping to receiver to translation to function. Signal: Push button Mapping: Select certain light based on coin flip Receiver: Machine Translation: That button means this light Function: Light up light The mapping of button to light is added to the machine function and is based on whatever association was chosen - a random selection following a coin flip or a question-answer pattern. No physical law produced this.Silver Asiatic
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