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Do we need a context to identify a message as the product of an intelligent being?

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In today’s short post, I shall argue that (a) there are at least some messages which we can identify as the product of an intelligent agent, regardless of their linguistic and social context, and (b) there is no context in which it would be reasonable for us to conclude that a message visible to everyone was a hallucination.

What prompted this discussion

In a post titled Signature in the cell?, Professor Edward Feser argued that no message, in and of itself, could warrant the inference that it was the product of an intelligent agent, without a knowledge of the context of the message. Referring to the hypothetical scenario in which a “Made by Yahweh” message was discovered in every human being’s cells, Feser wrote:

If we’re to judge that Yahweh, rather than extraterrestrial pranksters, hallucination, or some other cause, was behind such an event, it is considerations other than the event itself that will justify us in doing so.

The reference to “hallucination, or some other cause” (presumably a natural one) as a possible explanation for the “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells led me to infer that Feser was acknowledging the legitimacy of a hyper-skeptical stance here – a position for which I criticized him in a subsequent post. Feser wrote a follow-up post in reply, in which he clarified his position:

I neither said nor implied that it would be “perfectly rational” to interpret phrases like the ones in question [e.g. the “Made by Yahweh” message in every cell – VJT] as hallucinations or as something other than a product of intelligence… What I said is that determining what to make of such weird events would crucially depend on epistemic background context, and that if we concluded that God was responsible (as of course we well might), then that epistemic background context would be doing more work in justifying that judgment than the weird events themselves would be.

In a comment attached to a recent post on Professor Feser’s Website, I pressed him to answer two simple questions of mine:

…[A]s an ID theorist, I happen to think it’s absolutely obvious that we can identify some messages as the work of an intelligent designer, regardless of context… From my reading of your [earlier] post, it seemed to me that you were saying that context was essential when drawing the inference that a message was the work of an intelligent agent. I would profoundly disagree.

I’d like to bury the hatchet, so I’ll ask you two questions:

1. Do you agree that if a message saying “Made by _____” were discovered in every human’s cells, it would be irrational to explain away the discovery as a mass hallucination, regardless of whether the message referred to God, Quetzalcoatl, or Steve Jobs as its author?

2. Do you agree that if the message were suitably long and specific (say, 100 characters of perfectly grammatical English with no repetition), it would be irrational not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, regardless of the message’s context?

As we’ll see below, Feser’s answer to both questions was “No.”
Feser replied:

…[O]ther readers have already pointed out what is wrong with your questions. Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be. If we describe various possible contexts in enough detail, we can certainly see how they would make a clear answer possible. That’s why there’s nothing remotely skeptical about what I said. Give us a specific context and sure, we can decide “This suggested interpretation is just indefensible” or “That suggested interpretation is extremely plausible.” But it’s silly to say “Let’s abstract from all context and then ask what the most probable source of the phrase is.” As Mike Flynn pointed out above, there’s no such thing as the most probable source absent all context.

Feser continued:

BTW, Vincent’s attempt to wriggle out of the problem context poses for his position is like certain point-missing attempts to solve the “commonsense knowledge problem” in AI [artificial intelligence – VJT]. As Hubert Dreyfus argues, it makes no sense to think that intelligence can be reduced to a set of explicitly formulated rules and representations, because there are always various context-dependent ways to interpret the rules and representations. To say “Oh, we’ll just put the ‘right’ interpretation into the rules and representations” completely misses the point, since it just adds further rules and representations that are themselves subject to alternative context-dependent interpretations.

Vincent is doing something similar when he tries to come up with these goofy examples of really long messages written in the cell. It completely misses the point, because that’s just further stuff the import of which depends on a larger context. It also completely misses the point to shout “Skepticism!”, just as an AI defender would be completely missing the point if he accused Dreyfus of being a skeptic. There’s nothing skeptical about it. We can know what the context is and thus we can know what the right interpretation is; we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context.

What is a context, anyway?

Remarkably, nowhere in his post does Professor Feser attempt to define what he means by a context – a curious omission. So I’m going to go with a standard dictionary definition: “the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.” I should mention that there is another definition for context: “the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.” However, in the case under consideration, we are looking at a short isolated message, with nothing preceding or following it. So the questions we need to confront are: do we need to attend to “the circumstances that form the setting” for the purported message, in order to rationally conclude that it is (a) not a collective hallucination we are all having, and (b) from an intelligent source? Feser contends that we do, and I maintain that we do not.

Feser’s absurd epistemic claim: there are some contexts in which hallucination may be a reasonable explanation for the discovery of a purported message in every human’s cells

I’d like to go back to a remark Feser made above:

Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be.

What Feser is saying here is that there are at least some contexts in which it would not be unreasonable [i.e. it might be reasonable] for us to conclude that a purported message discovered by scientists in every human being’s cells was in fact a hallucination. This, I have to say, is outright nonsense.

In order to see why it’s nonsense, let’s imagine a scenario which is as generous to Professor Feser’s case as it is possible to be. Let’s suppose that a worldwide magnetic storm is playing havoc with people’s brains, causing them to hallucinate. It has been claimed that magnetic stimulation of the brain can trigger religious hallucinations, although the evidence for this claim is very thin. But let’s suppose for argument’s sake that this claim is true. During the magnetic storm, some scientists suddenly announce the discovery of a “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells. Other scientists around the world rush to confirm the claim. Could they all be seeing things in their laboratories? Could mass hallucination be a rational explanation for this sudden discovery of what appears to be a message in our cells?

No, it couldn’t – unless all the world’s scientists have not only started hallucinating, but lost their ability to reason, as well. But that wasn’t the scenario envisaged by Feser: his assertion that he can imagine at least some contexts where it would not be unreasonable to conclude that a purported message was a hallucination presupposes that the people drawing this conclusion still possess the use of reason, even in these far-fetched contexts.

One obvious way in which scientists could confirm that the message was real – even during a magnetic storm that was playing havoc with their perceptions – would be to use double-blind testing, with a control sample of similar-looking cells (say, synthetic cells, or perhaps cells from another species) that did not contain the “Made by Yahweh” message. (A control sample of synthetic cells might contain no message at all, or alternatively, a different message – “Made by Craig Venter” – might be inserted into the cells.) If testing on different scientists produced consistent results – e.g. if they all reported seeing the same message in the same cells – then the hallucination hypothesis would be decisively ruled out, as an explanation.

Interpretation is not the same thing as decoding: why the commonsense knowledge problem is irrelevant to the Intelligent Design project

In his reply to my questions, Feser alluded to the work of AI researcher Hubert Dreyfus, who in a book titled Mind over Machine (Free Press, 1986) which he co-authored with Stuart Dreyfus, defined the commonsense knowledge problem as “how to store and access all the facts human beings seem to know” (1986, p. 78). As Wikipedia notes, “The problem is considered to be among the hardest in all of AI research because the breadth and detail of commonsense knowledge is enormous.”

As we’ve seen, Feser contends that because the correct interpretation of a rule invariably requires contextual knowledge, any attempt to infer that a purported message is in fact the product of an intelligent agent, apart from all context, is doomed to failure. But what Feser is assuming here is that the identification of a purported message as the work of an intelligent agent requires a correct interpretation of that message. As an Intelligent Design advocate, I disagree: all it requires is the decoding of that message, and it may not even require that. (If the message could be independently shown to be both highly specific and astronomically improbable, I believe it would be rational to infer on these grounds alone that an intelligent agent was most likely responsible for producing the alleged message, even if we had no idea what it was about.) Hence Professor Feser’s assertion that “we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context” is beside the point.

Decoding a message is very easy, if it is written in the script of a language we already understand: all we need to do is read each word of the script and confirm that it conforms to the grammatical and spelling rules of the language in question. Depending on the language in question, the code we use when reading the words – something we all learned to do at school – may be either a phonic code (for alphabetic scripts), a syllabic code, a logographic code (for ideograms) or a pictographic code. Even if sentence turns out to be grammatically correct, but semantically nonsensical, like Noam Chomsky’s “Colorless green ideas sleep furiously”, decoding it is still a relatively straightforward affair. And if we found such a message inscribed on the walls of every human cell, we should have no hesitation in concluding that some intelligent agent was responsible, even if we didn’t know who that agent was.

(Note: I should like to make it clear that I do not regard people’s ability to read texts written in their own native language as part of the context of a purported message in that language. Defining “context” in this way would make the term absurdly broad. Rather, I would see the ability to read a language as a presupposition of there being any messages in that language at all. The term “context” refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message, and does not include the ability to decode a script.)

Decoding a message is harder when it is written in a language we understand, but where the message is encrypted, using a cipher. In such cases, we might think that at least some background knowledge was essential, in order to decode the message. However, there have been occasions when ciphers were reconstructed through the power of pure deduction – for example, the German Lorenz cipher and the Japanese Purple code. Having successfully decoded the message, it would be the very height of irrationality not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, even if we knew nothing of the message’s context. For instance, the message might say, “The weather is sunny,” but in spy-talk that might really mean: “The coast is clear: we can proceed with our plan.” But even if we had no idea of the message’s true import, we could still legitimately infer that it originated from an intelligent source, once we had decoded it.

When the message is written in an unknown language, decoding is complicated by the mathematical fact that there’s always some cipher that can be used to transform an unknown message into any string of English characters you want. This point was made by one of my critics, named Scott, who argued: “100 characters of perfectly grammatical English wouldn’t look like any such thing to anyone who didn’t already read English. For that matter, given a hundred of anything, there’s some cipher according to which the series encodes any 100-character string you care to choose.” In practice, successful decoding of scripts in unknown languages, such as Linear A (used in Crete over 3,000 years ago), relies heavily on context-related clues. The question then arises: what should we conclude if astronauts found what appeared to be an inscription in an unknown language on the Moon or Mars? Without a context of any sort, could we still make the inference that the inscription came from an intelligent source?

I believe we can. A simple illustration will suffice. In 2013, two scientists writing in the journal Icarus argued that there were patterns in the genetic code of living organisms that were highly statistically significant, with features indicative of intelligence which were inconsistent with any known natural process. (The authors of the paper, Vladimir I. Cherbak of al-Farabi Kazakh National University of Kazakhstan, and Maxim A. Makukov of the Fesenkov Astrophysical Institute, list several categories of natural processes, and they are clearly familiar with the relevant scientific literature on the subject.) “Simple arrangements of the code reveal an ensemble of arithmetical and ideographical patterns of symbolic language,” they wrote. These features included decimal notation, logical transformation and the abstract symbol zero. Summing up, the authors argued:

In total, not only the signal itself reveals intelligent-like features – strict nucleon equalities, their decimal notation, logical transformation accompanying the equalities, the symbol of zero and semantic symmetries, but the very method of its extraction involved abstract operations – consideration of idealized (free and unmodified) molecules, distinction between their blocks and chains, the activation key, contraction and decomposition of codons. We find that taken together all these aspects point at artificial nature of the patterns.

The authors tentatively concluded that the decimal system in the genetic code “was invented outside the Solar System already several billions (sic) years ago.” (H/t: Max for correction to my wording.)

Regardless of whether the authors’ claims turn out to be true or not – and I’m not holding my breath – the point is that the identification of the signal they claimed to find in our genetic code was made on purely mathematical grounds, apart from all considerations of context. In order to rule out a natural (as opposed to artificial) source for the message, the only thing the authors needed to ascertain was whether it could be accounted for by known natural causes. One could always hypothesize the existence of a natural cause capable of generating these mathematical features, but the authors argue that the only reasonable inference to draw is that the signal they claim to find in the genetic code is an artificial one, generated by an intelligent source.

(I should point out here that our knowledge of what natural processes are capable of generating is not contextual knowledge, but scientific knowledge. As I stated above, the term “context” properly refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message. Our knowledge of processes occurring in Nature does not help us to do that.)

I conclude, then, that Professor Feser’s contention that the identification of a purported message as the product of an intelligent source cannot be made, apart from all context, is baseless and incorrect. I hope that Professor Feser will be gracious enough to acknowledge this in the future.

Comments
Upright Biped:
Playing middle C at a specified time as a part of a larger choreographed effect is hardly equivalent to a drop of water that falls at a random point in time as ground water permits.
When you talk about "a larger choreographed effect", are you referring to the fact that the music box used to play a song before you filed off all but one of the pins? If so, is this fact relevant to your claim that the single-pin music box has a physical discontinuity?R0bb
August 23, 2014
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RDFish:
So you believe that robots are necessarily non-deterministic
I am sure that Upright BiPed and many others here at UD believe that non-deterministic systems are necessarily non-deterministic. Does that pose some conceptual problem for you? Is it your belief that a non-deterministic system, to be necessarily non-deterministic, must be deterministic?Mung
August 22, 2014
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It is necessary for RDFish to make such an argument because in his alleged rebuttal of Upright BiPed his pool of water must serve the role of a representation. Of course that's absurd, so we must reduce representation to no more than a pool of water. Or to a concept in the mind. This from the same RDFish that "poo-poos" dualism. And of course, RDFish, true to character (or lack thereof) appeals to both simultaneously. Any port in a storm, as it were. A pool of water is not a representation because a drop of water might just happen to fall in that pool and result in a sound of a particular wavelength. (But what does the pool of water represent?) It follows that a tine in a music box tuned to produce a particular frequency when struck by a pin on the cylinder in a music box does not represent anything at all. Inexorable logic. No lack of physico-chemical continuity. A striking B produces a sound. C striking D produces a sound. Therefore, there is no difference. QED.Mung
August 22, 2014
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UD Editors: In this comment RDFish called Barry Arrington a liar. He is now in moderation. here
Mung
August 22, 2014
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Phinehas (attn RDF): Protocol and representation legitimately describe important phenomena in communication systems. And UB has used them appropriately. KFkairosfocus
August 22, 2014
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RDF:
And again, these terms “representation” and “protocol” don’t refer to anything intrinsic in the system; they are just concepts human beings use to understand systems.
Isn't this merely begging the question? So, "representation" and "protocol" and, hey, "information" and "intelligence" and "code," etc. etc. are just concepts human beings use to understand systems. They aren't intrinsic to the system. Oh, look. Now we are left with only materialistic explanations, so everything has to reduce to such explanations and I can obviously declare myself the winner of this argument. The sophistry is so downright transparent that it takes your breath a way a bit.Phinehas
August 22, 2014
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RDFish:
You clearly said that this simplified system exhibited a discontinuity, and I have shown that such systems have no such continuity.
We finally have agreement then. There is no such continuity. That's what we mean by discontinuity. Thanks for playing.Mung
August 22, 2014
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RDFish:
No, the purpose of this is to make simple examples to clarify our claims here – just like Upright Biped did with his music-box example.
Which RDFish thought was an "excellent" idea. Upright BiPed:
We need a simple “robot” to talk to RD about, one where the parts and functions are bare and accessible to any observer.
RDFish @ 452:
Excellent idea.
One which you promptly went on to ignore, lol. Was the single cylinder with a single pin and the single comb with the single tine tuned to produce a specific wavelength when struck by the pin still too complex for you? If you don't like Upright BiPed's simple robotic system of choice why not propose one of your own? Perhaps one of those mechanical clapping monkeys.Mung
August 22, 2014
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Upright BiPed:
We need a simple “robot” to talk to RD about, one where the parts and functions are bare and accessible to any observer.
I stopped back in to check in on the progress of the RDFishCompletelyDeterministicMechanicalRobotBird. I guess it's still a work in progress? Maybe he needs help with the mapping.Mung
August 22, 2014
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RDFish:
It not reasonable, however, to rule out that “physio-chemical” processes (can we just say physical, please?)
No, we can't. Why should we grant you any point you haven't argued for? Pleading doesn't count, unless it's special pleading. Are you special pleading?Mung
August 22, 2014
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Hi Upright Biped, I posted 463 immediately after you posted your response in @462 and didn't see it. Apologies and thank you for responding!! My response:
A) In your example, the water drop would be the representation and the pool would be the protocol, leading to the effect.
And again, these terms "representation" and "protocol" don't refer to anything intrinsic in the system; they are just concepts human beings use to understand systems. And you must know that nobody would actually use those concepts to describe water dropping into a puddle. It's just water dropping into a puddle - no concept of "protocol" needed to understand this, nor "representation".
Thus far, I have told you that a physical discontinuity must exist in the system and I have told you why it must be there.
You've told me that it must be there, but you haven't said clearly what a "discontinuity" is, nor what is necessary and sufficient for it to exist.
I have also told you that this discontinuity must be preserved during (and throughout) the translation.
Translation? How is that different from "operation"?
In the music box example, the pin has nothing whatsoever with determining the effect – that is accomplished solely by the tine.
The pitch of the tone is determined by the length of the tine, yes. Just as the pitch of the puddle is determined by its size.
The pin has no role whatsoever in the production of the sound.
Uh, no - the pin has a crucial role in producing the sound, of course - it is what plucks the tine and causes it to vibrate (that is, give off sound waves). The pin causes the sound, the tine length determines the pitch. Just as the water droplet causes the "plink" sound, and the size of the water pocket determines the pitch. Exactly analogous.
But in your example, the drop hits the pool and becomes very much part of the effect.
HUH???? Here is the analogy: Pin => water droplet. Tine => surface of the puddle. The fact that that the droplet becomes part of the water in the puddle is irrelevant! If you'd like, imagine a series of berries falling off of a tree, one at a time as they ripen, and bouncing off of a coconut, making a distinctive tone, the pitch of which is determined by the size of the coconut and how full of milk it is!
The drop, as you say yourself ”produces a splash with a distinctive pitch”.
Just as the pin starts the vibration in the tine, the droplet starts the vibration in the surface of the puddle. The sound waves emanate from the tine, and the sound waves emanate from the surface of the puddle.
How could you possibly construe this as being discontinuous?
Hahahaha! I consider NEITHER of these systems "discontinuous" and have been trying to figure out what you are possibly thinking that makes you say otherwise!
B) I shaved all the other pins off the cylinder to help focus the conversation.
And it helped tremendously, because it shows how your argument is confused. You clearly said that this simplified system exhibited a discontinuity, and I have shown that such systems have no such continuity. QED. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 22, 2014
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It's amusing in a weird sort of way to see that RDF totally fails to notice that UB extensively addresses his irrelevant example of water-drops in post #462 section A and goes on making wild accusations and claiming that UB is "ignoring" him.Box
August 22, 2014
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RDF: Liquids and materials like paper have no capacity to store or process information (...) RDF uses the term "information", which means that there must be a canonical definition for it. One wonders what that would be. One thing's for certain: intelligence is not a part of that definition.Box
August 22, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: I answered all your questions. SB: No, you did not.
My response: Yes I did. It is you who have steadfastly refused to respond to anything I've asked, and every point I've made, because you know that I am right, and that you are wrong, and if you responded that would become clear. Run and hide.
I asked you why, given your belief that anything can come from nothing,
My response: You can look in vain for anything that suggests I ever said that. Nor does this have any relation to the topic at hand. You are desperately trying to change the subject, because you know that if you stay on topic you'll have to admit you are wrong. Run and hide, run and hide.
Nonsense, I answered four of your questions at 464, showing all of them to be thoughtlessly conceived, including your water-dripping model which is not applicable.
My response to @464 was this:
RDF: We have absolutely no reason to suspect that anything of the sort would ever happen. We know what ink does – it obeys what we know of fluid dynamics, flows under the influence of gravity, etc. We know what paper does – nothing, it just sits there. Liquids and materials like paper have no capacity to store or process information, and couldn’t possibly generate grammatical language. So why would anyone think that these things could ever produce a novel? It’s ridiculous. These are reasons, not just restatements. The fact that paper and ink cannot store and process information is one of many perfectly good reasons why your example is impossible. Would you like to explain to me why you believe that a stone cannot spontaneously turn into a puddle of water?
Your response? Run and hide.
This ploy is a clear attempt to change the subject
My reponse was this:
No, the purpose of this is to make simple examples to clarify our claims here – just like Upright Biped did with his music-box example. I believe that the water-drop example is operationally analgous to UB’s music box example; both are systems that periodically produce a particular tone. That means that since UB thinks the music box operation exhibits a discontinuity, then the water-drop example must also exhibit a discontuity. The water-drop example removes all human involvement from the scenario, and so depending upon UB’s answer, I will understand whether he thinks human involvement is somehow requisite in producing what he calls a “translation system”.
Your response? Run and hide.
UB: “RD, can you produce the effect “middle C, now” from a pin on a cylinder?” RDF:If there was only a pin on a cylinder, it wouldn’t move at all. If there was a pin on a cylinder and there was something to rotate the cylinder and something for the pin to hit that was the appropriate length to produce middle “C”, then yes. Otherwise, no. SB: Typical RDF answer: yes and no. The ultimate dodge.
My response: What a joke. Can you fly, Stephen? YES OR NO - can you fly? My answer would be "If I was in an airplane or helicopter, then yes. Otherwise, no". That isn't a dodge, it is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And JUST THE SAME WAY, I answered your and UB's question about the cylinder and the pin: If the cylinder was rotating such that the pin plucked the tine, and the tine had a length that produced a tone of middle C, then YES. Otherwise, NO. I answer every single one your questions, and every one of UB's as well. Neither of you have the courage to even try to respond to my questions or respond to my points. Prove me wrong - stop being a coward and respond: UB produced an example of a music box which he says has physical discontinuities. I responded with an example of the water-drops, and asked if that system also had physical discontinuities. Your response and UB's response: RUN AND HIDE. I explained that the "representation" that UB says is in his system is not inherent in the system, but only is a concept that human beings use to understand the system. The system proceeds in a way that is reducible without remainder to physical cause, and the effects are determined by the antecedent causes. Your response and UB's response: RUN AND HIDE! Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 22, 2014
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“RD, can you produce the effect “middle C, now” from a pin on a cylinder?” RDF:
If there was only a pin on a cylinder, it wouldn’t move at all. If there was a pin on a cylinder and there was something to rotate the cylinder and something for the pin to hit that was the appropriate length to produce middle “C”, then yes. Otherwise, no.
Typical RDF answer: yes and no. The ultimate dodge.StephenB
August 22, 2014
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RDFIsh
I answered all your questions.
No, you did not. I asked you why, given your belief that anything can come from nothing, you suddenly claim that a code doesn’t come from ink and paper. Why can it come from nothing, but not from ink and paper?
You are mischaracterizing my views,
In our past discussions, you have denied the proposition that nothing can begin to exist without a cause. If you would care to change your position, I will make a note of it.
No you won’t ever answer my question, because you have no answer obviously.
Nonsense, I answered four of your questions at 464, showing all of them to be thoughtlessly conceived, including your water-dripping model which is not applicable.StephenB
August 22, 2014
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Hi Upright Biped,
“RD, can you produce the effect “middle C, now” from a pin on a cylinder?”
If there was only a pin on a cylinder, it wouldn't move at all. If there was a pin on a cylinder and there was something to rotate the cylinder and something for the pin to hit that was the appropriate length to produce middle "C", then yes. Otherwise, no.
If not, then you should now be reasonably clear on what a physical discontinuity is.
I still have no idea, and I suspect you don't either. I've already said what I believe you meant by this, but instead of simply coming out and saying what you mean, you just prattle on with these stupid games. Is it or is it not "reduction", as I asked in @452?
If a system produces effects through translation,
What does translation entail? Does the water drop example qualify as translation?
In other words, if the pin cannot be mapped to middle C – except by the organization of the system – can the production of middle C be determined by physical law?
Yes, if the organiziation of the system was determined by physical law, then the production of middle C is determined by physical law. (Remember: it doesn’t matter whether or not the builder of the system was acting out of determinism. The system requirements remain). Right, then yes, the production of middle C is determined by physical law, since the lawlike operation of the physical structure accounts for this production. Yet again, I answer each of your questions. What about answering mine? (Yeah, right) Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 22, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: Do you think the water-drops in the cave system is, for the purpose of this debate, equivalent in all relevant ways? SB: This ploy is a clear attempt to change the subject
No, the purpose of this is to make simple examples to clarify our claims here - just like Upright Biped did with his music-box example. I believe that the water-drop example is operationally analgous to UB's music box example; both are systems that periodically produce a particular tone. That means that since UB thinks the music box operation exhibits a discontinuity, then the water-drop example must also exhibit a discontuity. The water-drop example removes all human involvement from the scenario, and so depending upon UB's answer, I will understand whether he thinks human involvement is somehow requisite in producing what he calls a "translation system".
Begin by addressing my points @451–if you dare.
Sure - I answer ALL of your questions. From @451:
I asked you why you believe that a novel cannot come from ink and paper. You didn’t answer. You simply restated your claim that it “doesn’t.”
No, I answered thus:
RDF: We have absolutely no reason to suspect that anything of the sort would ever happen. We know what ink does – it obeys what we know of fluid dynamics, flows under the influence of gravity, etc. We know what paper does – nothing, it just sits there. Liquids and materials like paper have no capacity to store or process information, and couldn’t possibly generate grammatical language. So why would anyone think that these things could ever produce a novel? It’s ridiculous.
These are reasons, not just restatements. The fact that paper and ink cannot store and process information is one of many perfectly good reasons why your example is impossible. Would you like to explain to me why you believe that a stone cannot spontaneously turn into a puddle of water?
The word “doesn’t” is an obvious attempt to have it both ways. You don’t want to say that it “can” come from ink and paper or you will sound like an idiot, but you don’t want to say that it “cannot,” or you will be acknowledging the law of causation, which of course, you reject.
Complete nonsense on both counts. Paper and ink cannot write novels for the reasons I've listed, and don't try to change the subject about the law of causation - another attempt at diversion.
More importantly, I asked you why, given your rejection of universal causation and the attendant belief that anything can come from nothing,...
You are mischaracterizing my views, and I'm sure you'd love to drag the debate off track, but too bad - this is just another dodge. Nobody is arguing here about the law of causation.
When you answer my questions, I will answer your question.
No you won't ever answer my question, because you have no answer obviously. I can answer every single one of your questions (as I just did) but you'll simply declare my answers aren't good enough, and continue to dodge all my questions. Ah, well. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 22, 2014
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You failed to answer my question RD. Did you forget that you said you would answer it if I answered yours? Answer it now without the evasion: ... "RD, can you produce the effect “middle C, now” from a pin on a cylinder?" ... If not, then you should now be reasonably clear on what a physical discontinuity is. If a system produces effects through translation, and if translation requires a physical discontinuity in order to function, then can the products of translation be derived from physical law, or, are they only derivable from the systems that translate information? In other words, if the pin cannot be mapped to middle C - except by the organization of the system - can the production of middle C be determined by physical law? (Remember: it doesn't matter whether or not the builder of the system was acting out of determinism. The system requirements remain).Upright BiPed
August 22, 2014
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RDF
If not, you’ll simply join StephenB and WJM in dodging my points for fear of losing these debates.
Do you mean that we are dodging some of your more brilliant questions like this one: RDF
Why do I have to explain how the music box came to be structured the way it is in order to explain the operation of the music box?
You don't have to explain how the music box came to be structured. Everyone agreed long ago that only the operational component was relevant to the argument. This qualifies as time-wasting stonewalling. Or this one:
It seems to me if I “account for” the structure, then I must say how it came to be.
This is another example of time-wasting pettiness. Context makes it clear that UB was discussing the operational component. And how about this beauty:
And why would you have to explain by the material that the system is made of why the pins are aligned that way? Why couldn’t you explain by other means?
Because, RD, the whole point is to explain how the material operations (and not something else) can be reconciled with discontinuity. You know, the very same thing that you claim cannot happen. More time wasting nonsense. Or this one:
Do you think the water-drops in the cave system is, for the purpose of this debate, equivalent in all relevant ways?
This ploy is a clear attempt to change the subject so as to avoid answering the really relevant questions that have been asked of you, such as the following: "If [you] only had a pin and not a comb or other sound-producing material, could [you] still produce the sound?” No, RD, no one is running away from your questions. The real task is to get you up to speed so that you can ask better ones. Meanwhile, you should probably try answering a few questions. Begin by addressing my points @451--if you dare.StephenB
August 22, 2014
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Hi Upright Biped, Responding to everything you've said:
I’m not asking you to tell me how the structure came to be, I’m telling you to account for the structure because it will tell you something about the operation of the system. See the difference?
No, I do not see the difference.
To answer the question, its because there is a relationship(a context specific regularity) established by the system.
There is a relationship between the cylinder pin and the tine - the pin plucks the tine, and the tine vibrates and produces sound.
Furthermore, there are specific material conditions that must be present for that relationship to exist,...
What conditions?
... and those material conditions are the identical to every other translation system ever observed.
Is the music box a translation system? Is the water-drop system a translation system? If not, why not? And what about my point that the "representation" of the note by the pin is not an inherent aspect of the system, but rather just a concept that the human designer (or reverse-engineer) uses to understand the system? Your turn. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 22, 2014
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You want to know if I consider the falling drop equivalent to the music box. Of course I don’t. You wouldn’t even ask that question if you would stop setting up defenses and learn to listen. A) In your example, the water drop would be the representation and the pool would be the protocol, leading to the effect. Thus far, I have told you that a physical discontinuity must exist in the system and I have told you why it must be there. These are the details that you refuse to address. I have also told you that this discontinuity must be preserved during (and throughout) the translation. In the music box example, the pin has nothing whatsoever with determining the effect – that is accomplished solely by the tine. The pin has no role whatsoever in the production of the sound. But in your example, the drop hits the pool and becomes very much part of the effect. The drop, as you say yourself ”produces a splash with a distinctive pitch”. How could you possibly construe this as being discontinuous? B) I shaved all the other pins off the cylinder to help focus the conversation. It didn’t occur to me that you would ignore the actual system as a result. Playing middle C at a specified time as a part of a larger choreographed effect is hardly equivalent to a drop of water that falls at a random point in time as ground water permits. NOTE TO RD: The translation of a representation into a functional effect requires four interdependent conditions. Some of these conditions can be found in nature without the others. This fact does not alter the conditions required to translate information. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I have now answered both of the questions you posed, yet you have yet to engage any of the fundamentals. This will continue. This is your pattern, made evident.Upright BiPed
August 22, 2014
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This was your question:
Why do I have to explain how the music box came to be structured the way it is in order to explain the operation of the music box … its operation can be explained without reference to anything but the physical properties ?
This is was my answer:
I’m not asking you to tell me how the structure came to be, I’m telling you to account for the structure because it will tell you something about the operation of the system. See the difference? To answer the question, its because there is a relationship(a context specific regularity) established by the system. Furthermore, there are specific material conditions that must be present for that relationship to exist, and those material conditions are the identical to every other translation system ever observed. You can certainly make a deliberate choice to ignore that relationship and those conditions, and you can even go so far as tell yourself it has nothing to do with the operation of the system. All anyone can do is wonder why you make those choices.
In return, you wrote exactly one line of text, where you ignored everything I gave as a direct answer to your question. Instead, you simply restated your previous point, again, completely ignoring my direct answer. This is not to say that you addressed my comments and demonstrated that they were invalid in some way, or that my reasoning was faulty. You simply ignore them – then demanded that I answer your questions. This was your answer:
It seems to me if I “account for” the structure, then I must say how it came to be.
You do these things, these clearly evasive maneuvers, within an environment where you repeatedly seek to belittle, denigrate, and insult others. This is your activity in place of engaging the argument. It's a pattern.Upright BiPed
August 22, 2014
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Hi Upright Biped,
I’m not asking you to tell me how the structure came to be, I’m telling you to account for the structure because it will tell you something about the operation of the system. See the difference?
No I do not. It seems to me if I "account for" the structure, then I must say how it came to be. Until you answer my questions, I cannot understand what you are talking about. Why not answer my questions? What is it you are afraid of? That it will become apparent your argument is confused? Do you, or do you not, accept that my water-drop example is equivalent in all relevant aspects to your music box example? If you answer this, we can move forward. If not, you'll simply join StephenB and WJM in dodging my points for fear of losing these debates. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 21, 2014
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Answer your questions? Here’s one: ” Why do I have to explain how the music box came to be structured the way it is in order to explain the operation of the music box … its operation can be explained without reference to anything but the physical properties ?” I’m not asking you to tell me how the structure came to be, I’m telling you to account for the structure because it will tell you something about the operation of the system. See the difference? To answer the question, its because there is a relationship(a context specific regularity) established by the system. Furthermore, there are specific material conditions that must be present for that relationship to exist, and those material conditions are the identical to every other translation system ever observed. You can certainly make a deliberate choice to ignore that relationship and those conditions, and you can even go so far as tell yourself it has nothing to do with the operation of the system. All anyone can do is ponder why you make those choices.Upright BiPed
August 21, 2014
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Answer my questions and respond to my points, and I will do the same for yours. Otherwise this is ridiculous.RDFish
August 21, 2014
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"Or do you mean if I only had a pin and not a comb or other sound-producing material, could I still produce the sound?" Bingo. What is your answer?Upright BiPed
August 21, 2014
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Hi Upright Biped,
RD, that was not a cryptic question. It was a response to the very first issue you brought up in your response.
It was in fact a cryptic question - too ambiguous to answer.
RD, can you produce the effect “middle C, now” from a pin on a cylinder?
Do you mean can I produce this tone now, because I happen to have the appropriate cylinder and metal comb in my office? Or do you mean am I capable of constructing this apparatus in the near future? Or do you mean if I only had a pin and not a comb or other sound-producing material, could I still produce the sound? Moreover, if you bothered to respond to more than the very first sentence in my post, we would have some chance of moving forward and making it clear where exactly our disagreements lie, and who might be right about what. As it is, we just go back and forth saying things like "I never said that!" or "That's a strawman!" or "I've already explained that!" or "You've missed the point entirely!".
So can you, by the material that the system is made of, describe why the certain pins are aligned to certain tines on a music box?
Why don't you ever answer my questions instead of just continuously asking your own? Start with this: Do you think the water-drops in the cave system is, for the purpose of this debate, equivalent in all relevant ways? And why would you have to explain by the material that the system is made of why the pins are aligned that way? Why couldn't you explain by other means?
If you cannot do so, then you cannot describe a music box via physical law “without remainder” – and your claim is false.
Why do I have to explain how the music box came to be structured the way it is in order to explain the operation of the music box? Once the structure is present, its operation can be explained without reference to anything but the physical properties of the system. And you have said most clearly and pointedly that you are talking about the operation of the system, and not its origin. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 21, 2014
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RD, that was not a cryptic question. It was a response to the very first issue you brought up in your response. As far as reading comments, you would not need to wonder what I mean by "discontinuity" if you had read mine. I explained it over two hundred comments ago, and have repeated it since then. Now, over the past coupe of days, you have said repeatedly stated that you have refuted my argument "by pointing out robots are physically reducible without remainder”. I have challenged you on that claim. So can you, by the material that the system is made of, describe why the certain pins are aligned to certain tines on a music box? If you cannot do so, then you cannot describe a music box via physical law "without remainder" - and your claim is false.Upright BiPed
August 21, 2014
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UB, the reason these discussions take so long and are subject to continual miscommunication is because rather than reading what I write, explicitly and intelligibly correcting whatever you think I got wrong, and endeavoring to make your own explanations ever clearer, you respond with cryptic questions like some cross between Socrates and the Dalai Lama. Try again.RDFish
August 21, 2014
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