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Do we need a context to identify a message as the product of an intelligent being?

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In today’s short post, I shall argue that (a) there are at least some messages which we can identify as the product of an intelligent agent, regardless of their linguistic and social context, and (b) there is no context in which it would be reasonable for us to conclude that a message visible to everyone was a hallucination.

What prompted this discussion

In a post titled Signature in the cell?, Professor Edward Feser argued that no message, in and of itself, could warrant the inference that it was the product of an intelligent agent, without a knowledge of the context of the message. Referring to the hypothetical scenario in which a “Made by Yahweh” message was discovered in every human being’s cells, Feser wrote:

If we’re to judge that Yahweh, rather than extraterrestrial pranksters, hallucination, or some other cause, was behind such an event, it is considerations other than the event itself that will justify us in doing so.

The reference to “hallucination, or some other cause” (presumably a natural one) as a possible explanation for the “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells led me to infer that Feser was acknowledging the legitimacy of a hyper-skeptical stance here – a position for which I criticized him in a subsequent post. Feser wrote a follow-up post in reply, in which he clarified his position:

I neither said nor implied that it would be “perfectly rational” to interpret phrases like the ones in question [e.g. the “Made by Yahweh” message in every cell – VJT] as hallucinations or as something other than a product of intelligence… What I said is that determining what to make of such weird events would crucially depend on epistemic background context, and that if we concluded that God was responsible (as of course we well might), then that epistemic background context would be doing more work in justifying that judgment than the weird events themselves would be.

In a comment attached to a recent post on Professor Feser’s Website, I pressed him to answer two simple questions of mine:

…[A]s an ID theorist, I happen to think it’s absolutely obvious that we can identify some messages as the work of an intelligent designer, regardless of context… From my reading of your [earlier] post, it seemed to me that you were saying that context was essential when drawing the inference that a message was the work of an intelligent agent. I would profoundly disagree.

I’d like to bury the hatchet, so I’ll ask you two questions:

1. Do you agree that if a message saying “Made by _____” were discovered in every human’s cells, it would be irrational to explain away the discovery as a mass hallucination, regardless of whether the message referred to God, Quetzalcoatl, or Steve Jobs as its author?

2. Do you agree that if the message were suitably long and specific (say, 100 characters of perfectly grammatical English with no repetition), it would be irrational not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, regardless of the message’s context?

As we’ll see below, Feser’s answer to both questions was “No.”
Feser replied:

…[O]ther readers have already pointed out what is wrong with your questions. Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be. If we describe various possible contexts in enough detail, we can certainly see how they would make a clear answer possible. That’s why there’s nothing remotely skeptical about what I said. Give us a specific context and sure, we can decide “This suggested interpretation is just indefensible” or “That suggested interpretation is extremely plausible.” But it’s silly to say “Let’s abstract from all context and then ask what the most probable source of the phrase is.” As Mike Flynn pointed out above, there’s no such thing as the most probable source absent all context.

Feser continued:

BTW, Vincent’s attempt to wriggle out of the problem context poses for his position is like certain point-missing attempts to solve the “commonsense knowledge problem” in AI [artificial intelligence – VJT]. As Hubert Dreyfus argues, it makes no sense to think that intelligence can be reduced to a set of explicitly formulated rules and representations, because there are always various context-dependent ways to interpret the rules and representations. To say “Oh, we’ll just put the ‘right’ interpretation into the rules and representations” completely misses the point, since it just adds further rules and representations that are themselves subject to alternative context-dependent interpretations.

Vincent is doing something similar when he tries to come up with these goofy examples of really long messages written in the cell. It completely misses the point, because that’s just further stuff the import of which depends on a larger context. It also completely misses the point to shout “Skepticism!”, just as an AI defender would be completely missing the point if he accused Dreyfus of being a skeptic. There’s nothing skeptical about it. We can know what the context is and thus we can know what the right interpretation is; we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context.

What is a context, anyway?

Remarkably, nowhere in his post does Professor Feser attempt to define what he means by a context – a curious omission. So I’m going to go with a standard dictionary definition: “the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.” I should mention that there is another definition for context: “the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.” However, in the case under consideration, we are looking at a short isolated message, with nothing preceding or following it. So the questions we need to confront are: do we need to attend to “the circumstances that form the setting” for the purported message, in order to rationally conclude that it is (a) not a collective hallucination we are all having, and (b) from an intelligent source? Feser contends that we do, and I maintain that we do not.

Feser’s absurd epistemic claim: there are some contexts in which hallucination may be a reasonable explanation for the discovery of a purported message in every human’s cells

I’d like to go back to a remark Feser made above:

Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be.

What Feser is saying here is that there are at least some contexts in which it would not be unreasonable [i.e. it might be reasonable] for us to conclude that a purported message discovered by scientists in every human being’s cells was in fact a hallucination. This, I have to say, is outright nonsense.

In order to see why it’s nonsense, let’s imagine a scenario which is as generous to Professor Feser’s case as it is possible to be. Let’s suppose that a worldwide magnetic storm is playing havoc with people’s brains, causing them to hallucinate. It has been claimed that magnetic stimulation of the brain can trigger religious hallucinations, although the evidence for this claim is very thin. But let’s suppose for argument’s sake that this claim is true. During the magnetic storm, some scientists suddenly announce the discovery of a “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells. Other scientists around the world rush to confirm the claim. Could they all be seeing things in their laboratories? Could mass hallucination be a rational explanation for this sudden discovery of what appears to be a message in our cells?

No, it couldn’t – unless all the world’s scientists have not only started hallucinating, but lost their ability to reason, as well. But that wasn’t the scenario envisaged by Feser: his assertion that he can imagine at least some contexts where it would not be unreasonable to conclude that a purported message was a hallucination presupposes that the people drawing this conclusion still possess the use of reason, even in these far-fetched contexts.

One obvious way in which scientists could confirm that the message was real – even during a magnetic storm that was playing havoc with their perceptions – would be to use double-blind testing, with a control sample of similar-looking cells (say, synthetic cells, or perhaps cells from another species) that did not contain the “Made by Yahweh” message. (A control sample of synthetic cells might contain no message at all, or alternatively, a different message – “Made by Craig Venter” – might be inserted into the cells.) If testing on different scientists produced consistent results – e.g. if they all reported seeing the same message in the same cells – then the hallucination hypothesis would be decisively ruled out, as an explanation.

Interpretation is not the same thing as decoding: why the commonsense knowledge problem is irrelevant to the Intelligent Design project

In his reply to my questions, Feser alluded to the work of AI researcher Hubert Dreyfus, who in a book titled Mind over Machine (Free Press, 1986) which he co-authored with Stuart Dreyfus, defined the commonsense knowledge problem as “how to store and access all the facts human beings seem to know” (1986, p. 78). As Wikipedia notes, “The problem is considered to be among the hardest in all of AI research because the breadth and detail of commonsense knowledge is enormous.”

As we’ve seen, Feser contends that because the correct interpretation of a rule invariably requires contextual knowledge, any attempt to infer that a purported message is in fact the product of an intelligent agent, apart from all context, is doomed to failure. But what Feser is assuming here is that the identification of a purported message as the work of an intelligent agent requires a correct interpretation of that message. As an Intelligent Design advocate, I disagree: all it requires is the decoding of that message, and it may not even require that. (If the message could be independently shown to be both highly specific and astronomically improbable, I believe it would be rational to infer on these grounds alone that an intelligent agent was most likely responsible for producing the alleged message, even if we had no idea what it was about.) Hence Professor Feser’s assertion that “we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context” is beside the point.

Decoding a message is very easy, if it is written in the script of a language we already understand: all we need to do is read each word of the script and confirm that it conforms to the grammatical and spelling rules of the language in question. Depending on the language in question, the code we use when reading the words – something we all learned to do at school – may be either a phonic code (for alphabetic scripts), a syllabic code, a logographic code (for ideograms) or a pictographic code. Even if sentence turns out to be grammatically correct, but semantically nonsensical, like Noam Chomsky’s “Colorless green ideas sleep furiously”, decoding it is still a relatively straightforward affair. And if we found such a message inscribed on the walls of every human cell, we should have no hesitation in concluding that some intelligent agent was responsible, even if we didn’t know who that agent was.

(Note: I should like to make it clear that I do not regard people’s ability to read texts written in their own native language as part of the context of a purported message in that language. Defining “context” in this way would make the term absurdly broad. Rather, I would see the ability to read a language as a presupposition of there being any messages in that language at all. The term “context” refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message, and does not include the ability to decode a script.)

Decoding a message is harder when it is written in a language we understand, but where the message is encrypted, using a cipher. In such cases, we might think that at least some background knowledge was essential, in order to decode the message. However, there have been occasions when ciphers were reconstructed through the power of pure deduction – for example, the German Lorenz cipher and the Japanese Purple code. Having successfully decoded the message, it would be the very height of irrationality not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, even if we knew nothing of the message’s context. For instance, the message might say, “The weather is sunny,” but in spy-talk that might really mean: “The coast is clear: we can proceed with our plan.” But even if we had no idea of the message’s true import, we could still legitimately infer that it originated from an intelligent source, once we had decoded it.

When the message is written in an unknown language, decoding is complicated by the mathematical fact that there’s always some cipher that can be used to transform an unknown message into any string of English characters you want. This point was made by one of my critics, named Scott, who argued: “100 characters of perfectly grammatical English wouldn’t look like any such thing to anyone who didn’t already read English. For that matter, given a hundred of anything, there’s some cipher according to which the series encodes any 100-character string you care to choose.” In practice, successful decoding of scripts in unknown languages, such as Linear A (used in Crete over 3,000 years ago), relies heavily on context-related clues. The question then arises: what should we conclude if astronauts found what appeared to be an inscription in an unknown language on the Moon or Mars? Without a context of any sort, could we still make the inference that the inscription came from an intelligent source?

I believe we can. A simple illustration will suffice. In 2013, two scientists writing in the journal Icarus argued that there were patterns in the genetic code of living organisms that were highly statistically significant, with features indicative of intelligence which were inconsistent with any known natural process. (The authors of the paper, Vladimir I. Cherbak of al-Farabi Kazakh National University of Kazakhstan, and Maxim A. Makukov of the Fesenkov Astrophysical Institute, list several categories of natural processes, and they are clearly familiar with the relevant scientific literature on the subject.) “Simple arrangements of the code reveal an ensemble of arithmetical and ideographical patterns of symbolic language,” they wrote. These features included decimal notation, logical transformation and the abstract symbol zero. Summing up, the authors argued:

In total, not only the signal itself reveals intelligent-like features – strict nucleon equalities, their decimal notation, logical transformation accompanying the equalities, the symbol of zero and semantic symmetries, but the very method of its extraction involved abstract operations – consideration of idealized (free and unmodified) molecules, distinction between their blocks and chains, the activation key, contraction and decomposition of codons. We find that taken together all these aspects point at artificial nature of the patterns.

The authors tentatively concluded that the decimal system in the genetic code “was invented outside the Solar System already several billions (sic) years ago.” (H/t: Max for correction to my wording.)

Regardless of whether the authors’ claims turn out to be true or not – and I’m not holding my breath – the point is that the identification of the signal they claimed to find in our genetic code was made on purely mathematical grounds, apart from all considerations of context. In order to rule out a natural (as opposed to artificial) source for the message, the only thing the authors needed to ascertain was whether it could be accounted for by known natural causes. One could always hypothesize the existence of a natural cause capable of generating these mathematical features, but the authors argue that the only reasonable inference to draw is that the signal they claim to find in the genetic code is an artificial one, generated by an intelligent source.

(I should point out here that our knowledge of what natural processes are capable of generating is not contextual knowledge, but scientific knowledge. As I stated above, the term “context” properly refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message. Our knowledge of processes occurring in Nature does not help us to do that.)

I conclude, then, that Professor Feser’s contention that the identification of a purported message as the product of an intelligent source cannot be made, apart from all context, is baseless and incorrect. I hope that Professor Feser will be gracious enough to acknowledge this in the future.

Comments
RDFish said:
When I say “scientific”, I mean something that can be demonstrated via appeal to our uniform and repeated experience.
So, the above is what RDFish has offered as a "canonical" definition of thee term "scientific". Let's see how this plays out. We are all intelligently designing our posts to this forum, working through devices that are intelligently designed. Is intelligent design NOT something that is demonstrated daily via appeal to our uniform and repeated experience? Furthermore, is it not our uniform and repeated experience that only intelligent agents produce CSI-rich artifacts? Is it not our uniform and repeated experience that absent such intelligence (and disregarding the example in dispute, biological life), nature on its own does not appear to generate CSI-rich artifacts, such as mechanisms that employ signal translation and processing towards complex, useful ends? Do we uniformly and repeatedly experience life arising from inanimate matter? Do we uniformly and repeatedly experience macroevolutionary success where complex new features are generated due to Darwinian processes? Do we uniformly and repeatedly experience codes forming when unintelligent forces and materials interact? It seems to me, then, by RDFish's own definition of "scientific", and by his own prior statements on the matter of CSI and intelligence, ID is far more scientific than Darwinian evolution and origin of life studies.William J Murray
August 20, 2014
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RDFish 387:
The mapping between the input (button pattern) and output (light pattern) is arbitrary; say I chose it just by flipping coins, and I constructed the machine such that it functioned with that particular random mapping.
Now say I decide to associate each button pattern, and each light pattern, with meaningful questions and answers, just by making a list of the associations.
As you would say, there is physico-chemically arbitrary code that enables the machine to connect meaningful questions with meaningfully correct answers. The machine processes information in order to reply with these correct results.
Would you say that just by writing down my list of associations I somehow transformed this machine from being reducible to physics into one that is not reducible to physics?
Is that all you did? Just write down a list?
But a person who associated certain button patterns with certain questions, and certain light patterns with answers, would see that the machine is a question-answering machine. Yet nothing in the machine is irreducible to physical cause.
The association/mapping/coding-translation/signal-processing is not "in the machine"? It's possible that you're not seeing this point. I would be very surprised by that but it could be true.Silver Asiatic
August 20, 2014
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RDFish @14, In the mix of responses, you seem to have missed my question. Obviously, you believe that information can be derived from physio-chemical interactions, which is the point that UB's argument (and other ID arguments) are meant to challenge. In responding to WJM, you agreed that the interaction of ink and paper (a physio-chemical process) doesn't produce a novel (information). As I pointed out, this response is not clear. Are you saying that we have no empirical evidence of it, but we cannot rule out the possibility? Or, are you saying that we can rule out the possibility? If it is the latter, why (or on what basis) do you hold that position?StephenB
August 20, 2014
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RDFish said:
When I say “scientific”, I mean something that can be demonstrated via appeal to our uniform and repeated experience – a definition used by both Darwin and, notably, by Stephen C. Meyer.
1. Where did you establish that Darwin and Meyer used the same definition? Source, please. 2. Would you please refer to a definition of "canonical" that supports your apparent position that two quotes by two different scientists = "canonical"?
I think it is sadly disengenuous of you to question the demarcation of science, considering ID is all about the attempt to obtain scientific status for metaphysical and theological beliefs. Otherwise, I would have no argument with any of it.
1. What I asked for is the exact same thing you demanded of ID supporters - a single, canonical definition of a term intrinsic to the debate - "scientific". If you are going to make the case that ID is non-scientific, it is incumbent upon you to provide the definitions that underlie your case. If you are going to demand "canonical" definitions, then since you are the one that inserted that standard, it's up to you to explain it and abide by it when challenged. 2. Can you support your assertion that ID is "all about the attempt to obtain scientific status for metaphysical and theological beliefs"? Sources, quotes?
As usual, you refused to answer my questions, presumably because you realized that it would undermine you claims. ... Since you refused to answer this, I will guess that you realize your error:
I've already addressed your self-serving, ego-propping assumptive habit. This is more of the reason I think you're a troll. I've already corrected you on this, but you continue to say "if you don't answer me, then "I WIN"!!!" - trollish behavior.William J Murray
August 20, 2014
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Hi Phinehas,
I’m just talking about pens and ink and their physicochemical properties here. I have no problem stipulating that pens do not have free will.
In that cause, the mapping between this unusual pen and paper is deterministic. What's your point?
Oops. I didn’t realize that you were once again trying to compare a system with no information to a system with information while pretending there was no difference between the two. Of course, your insistence that there really isn’t any information here and that this is an important point tends to undermine your argument more than support it. But anyway. My bad?
Uh? The machine pairs, by virtue of its physical properties, button patterns with light patterns. Nothing in the machine contains any information other than those random pairings. But a person who associated certain button patterns with certain questions, and certain light patterns with answers, would see that the machine is a question-answering machine. Yet nothing in the machine is irreducible to physical cause. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 20, 2014
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RDFish:
Concede that if ID is talking about alien life forms, they don’t have a very good theory. And if ID is talking about something that isn’t an alien life form, they need to say something about what they are proposing, otherwise they aren’t saying anything at all.
ID is about the DESIGN, not the designer(s). Obviously the DESIGN arrived somehow and we can study the DESIGN. In the absence of direct observation or designer input, only by studying the design can we have any hope of scientifically determining anything about the designer(s) and the specific processes used. Obviously RDFish is just another troll.Joe
August 20, 2014
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All codes are arbitrary and irreducible wrt physics and chemistry. The genetic code is such a code even though evos have a promissory note saying that they will figure it out someday.Joe
August 20, 2014
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RDFish:
...considering ID is all about the attempt to obtain scientific status for metaphysical and theological beliefs.
And more utter nonsense. Science is about reality, period, whatever that reality is. Now RDFish doesn't understand what a code is. Wow, just wow...Joe
August 20, 2014
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Hi William J Murray,
I’m sorry, RDFish. Did I miss where you presented us with the canonical definition of “scientfic”?
When I say "scientific", I mean something that can be demonstrated via appeal to our uniform and repeated experience - a definition used by both Darwin and, notably, by Stephen C. Meyer. I think it is sadly disengenuous of you to question the demarcation of science, considering ID is all about the attempt to obtain scientific status for metaphysical and theological beliefs. Otherwise, I would have no argument with any of it.
Coded CSI in any substrate cannot be explained by the physical properties of the substrate, just as the exstence of War and Peace cannot be explained by reference to the physical properties of ink and paper.
As usual, you refused to answer my questions, presumably because you realized that it would undermine you claims. What I asked was this:
WJM: The machine is reducible to physics. The existence of the code is not. RDF: What is the “code” – the pairing of patterns inside the machine? Or the list of questions and answers that I had written out after the fact?
Since you refused to answer this, I will guess that you mean the latter. Then I asked this:
Remember, UB claimed that the operation of the machine contained irreducible discontinuities. If by “code” you mean the list that was written… what if I didn’t write the list, but simply kept it in my memory? What part of the system would be “irreducible” then?
Since you refused to answer this, I will guess that you realize your error: No part of this question-answering machine is irreducible to physical cause at all. And there you have my rebuttal to UB's argument, which you called (@371) "the most irrefutable and ubiquitous of ID arguments". :-) Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 20, 2014
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WJM
If the existence of code was reducible to the physical characteristics of the materials, physical law and chance, you would expect War and Peace to write itself simply by introducing ink to paper.
RDF
May I say that neither of us thinks novels write themselves, so you needn’t suggest this again?
A little more clarity would help here. Do you mean that we have never observed it to happen, but it is possible? Or, do you mean that it is not possible? If it is not possible, why not?StephenB
August 20, 2014
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If you’re saying that ID is not scientific like most of biology — then I’d fully agree.
That is, I'd agree with your reasoning, not your conclusions. I.e. "Modern biology is not scientific. So it follows that ID is not."Silver Asiatic
August 20, 2014
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May I say that neither of us thinks novels write themselves, so you needn’t suggest this again?
This is why I think you're a troll, RDFish. You take a phrase that is meant to portray a concept, like CSI-rich CODE (War and Peace), emerging causally from the interaction of ink and paper (as if the phsysico-chemical interactive regularities was enough to account for the existence of the code), and then take it out of context to make some ludicrous point about humans being the only thing we know that writes novels. As if that was my point. That humans write novels. My point was that CODE (war and peace) doesn't spontaneously manifest in a medium just because of the lawful nature of the mediums in question. The properties of ink and paper cannot explain the existence of the code. Coded CSI in any substrate cannot be explained by the physical properties of the substrate, just as the exstence of War and Peace cannot be explained by reference to the physical properties of ink and paper.William J Murray
August 20, 2014
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JWT: " We know we can identify human-designed results (see archaelogy etc.) without resorting to philosophical worldviews." But that is only because we understand the intelligence levels and capabilities of humans. But we are being asked to accept the identification of design in biological features without having any understanding of the intelligence responsible. In fact, we are told that understanding this intelligence is not needed, and beyond our comprehension. Sorry. Can't buy that. Without establishing an hypothesis (maybe even a theory) about the nature and capabilities/limitations of the designer, you have nothing to test.Acartia_bogart
August 20, 2014
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Whether or not human beings are reducible to physical law is a very ancient philosophical question that cannot presently be addressed by scientific inquiry.
If it's a philosophical question, then 'presently' is not needed in your reply. Scientists who claim that everything is reducible to physical law, obviously disagree with you. I'd guess that you'd use the science to prove that science cannot answer this. To do that, and also claim that ID is not science would be a contradiction. We can use science to eliminate physical law as a cause -- I believe, just as you did. We don't use philosophy to determine that, especially since you've said 'presently' science cannot do it. This implies that science is still working on it. ID is working on it also.
I am not arguing for any particular metaphysics here; I am simply intent on pointing out that science cannot resolve the issue ...
I'd be interested in learning what non-reducible 'thing' you're referring to.
to the extent that ID is predicated on contra-causality (which I think has been amply demonstrated here), ID is not scientific.
Most of biology today supposes that human beings are entirely reducible to physical law. If you're saying that ID is not scientific like most of biology -- then I'd fully agree.Silver Asiatic
August 20, 2014
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I'm sorry, RDFish. Did I miss where you presented us with the canonical definition of "scientfic"? Because absent such a definition, by your own measure, all of your arguments about whether or not ID is a "scientific" enterprise lack foundational merit.William J Murray
August 20, 2014
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Hi William J Murray,
The machine is reducible to physics. The existence of the code is not.
What is the "code" - the pairing of patterns inside the machine? Or the list of questions and answers that I had written out after the fact? Remember, UB claimed that the operation of the machine contained irreducible discontinuities. If by "code" you mean the list that was written... what if I didn't write the list, but simply kept it in my memory? What part of the system would be "irreducible" then?
If the existence of code was reducible to the physical characteristics of the materials, physical law and chance, you would expect War and Peace to write itself simply by introducing ink to paper.
May I say that neither of us thinks novels write themselves, so you needn't suggest this again? Human beings write novels, and as far we know, nothing else does. Whether or not human beings are reducible to physical law is a very ancient philosophical question that cannot presently be addressed by scientific inquiry. [I will share my own personal view if you're interested: I am not a "materialist", because I believe modern physics has no relation to what people think of as "material interactions" - little bits of stuff careening off of each other in a void. Neither do I believe that treating conscious mind as an irreducible cause that is neither determined nor random is a coherent explanation (for reasons that would take longer to explain). But the point is I am not arguing for any particular metaphysics here; I am simply intent on pointing out that science cannot resolve the issue, and to the extent that ID is predicated on contra-causality (which I think has been amply demonstrated here), ID is not scientific.] Once you clarify what you meant by the "code", we'll be able to discuss the resolution of my thought experiment. But thank you for answering in good faith.
It really isn’t that difficult to understand.
Actually these questions have occupied the finest minds in history and continue to do so without anything remotely resembling consensus. So I would disagree with your assessment. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 20, 2014
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RDF:
The problem with your point is that you assume without evidence that you have solved the ancient problem of free will, and so you know that when human beings write sentences, something inside of them is acting non-deterministically.
Nope. It is you that are introducing the problem of free will , either as a red herring or some kind of supposed philosophical cover. My point is clear: A pen whose physicochemical properties interact with paper such that letters are automatically formed leaves no room for mapping. There must be a break or a discontinuity in the physicochemical chain between pen and paper and letter forming in order for meaningful mapping to occur. A pen that has this discontinuity such that it can arbitrarily (not determined from a physicochemical perspective) form letters can utilize mapping to communicate meaning. I'm just talking about pens and ink and their physicochemical properties here. I have no problem stipulating that pens do not have free will.
I was waiting for this one. UB had made painfully clear that his point did not relate to the origin of these machines, but rather had to do soley with their operation.
Good for him. What does that have to do with my answer to your question? You set up a scenario and asked a question about it, and I simply answered.
The operation of the machine is obviously reducible. It does not make sense to say the “information” (a random pairing of random patterns) is not reducible – just as it makes no sense to say that the pairing between solar radiation and cyclones cannot be reduced to physical properties.
Oops. I didn't realize that you were once again trying to compare a system with no information to a system with information while pretending there was no difference between the two. Of course, your insistence that there really isn't any information here and that this is an important point tends to undermine your argument more than support it. But anyway. My bad?
UB is wise to restrict the discussion to the operation of these systems rather than the origin of them. Veering off into discussions of “who designed the designer” doesn’t help either side of this debate.
Yes. As you say, UB is wise indeed.Phinehas
August 20, 2014
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RDFish said:
The problem with your point is that you assume without evidence that you have solved the ancient problem of free will, and so you know that when human beings write sentences, something inside of them is acting non-deterministically.
Without evidence? The evidence is staring you in the face, both scientifically and logically. There is NOTHING about the physical properties of any medium that has ever been found, regardless of what it is, that can account for the coded messages carried by the medium. Further, there is no logical answer for it from the perspective of materialism. The highly specified contingency required for coded messaging and it's Irreducibly Complex nature renders inscription by physical law and/or chance entirely insufficient for producing even modest-sized, meaningful strings.
You may be right, and you may be wrong, but it is well beyond any pretense of scientific claim to assume one way or the other. Since ID depends on the truth of this claim, ID cannot be called scientific.
What can be appropriately called "scientific" does not depend upon your personal, idiosyncratic, selectively hyperskeptical definition of "scientific". Or are you claiming there is a single, canonical definition of the term "scientific"?William J Murray
August 20, 2014
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RDFish asks:
Would you say that just by writing down my list of associations I somehow transformed this machine from being reducible to physics into one that is not reducible to physics? No, of course not.
The machine is reducible to physics. The existence of the code is not. If the existence of code was reducible to the physical characteristics of the materials, physical law and chance, you would expect War and Peace to write itself simply by introducing ink to paper. Random splotches of ink spattered on paper is, physically, "the same as" War and Peace written on paper with ink. The splotches just look different. The code that War and Peace represents, however, is not explained by reference merely to the lawful physico-chemical interactions of paper and ink. It really isn't that difficult to understand.William J Murray
August 20, 2014
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Hi Phinehas,
My point was that where a signal chain is physically-causally deterministic (someone else referenced physio-chemical properties to make the same point), there is no room for mapping. If I came out with a new ball point pen with special ink that had a physio-chemical reaction with paper such that it automatically formed various letters on contact, the deterministic nature of this interaction would make the pen much less useful in writing meaningful sentences. That pens do not act this way, but instead provide a deterministic gap in the forming of letters, allows me to insert my own mapping scheme such that meaningful sentences can be written. Is this really that difficult to understand?
The problem with your point is that you assume without evidence that you have solved the ancient problem of free will, and so you know that when human beings write sentences, something inside of them is acting non-deterministically. You may be right, and you may be wrong, but it is well beyond any pretense of scientific claim to assume one way or the other. Since ID depends on the truth of this claim, ID cannot be called scientific.
I would say that your machine has been intelligently designed...
I was waiting for this one. UB had made painfully clear that his point did not relate to the origin of these machines, but rather had to do soley with their operation. It doesn't matter how this machine came to exist - the claim is that how it operates somehow exhibits a discontinuity.
...and imbued with information.
The information in the machine had nothing to do with its ability to answer questions. It only connected random button patterns with random light patterns.
This information is not reducible to the physicochemical properties of the matter involved.
The operation of the machine is obviously reducible. It does not make sense to say the "information" (a random pairing of random patterns) is not reducible - just as it makes no sense to say that the pairing between solar radiation and cyclones cannot be reduced to physical properties.
Your machine is also irreducibly complex. These things would be apparent if your machine were discovered on a distant planet upon which no human had ever set foot.
Completely irrelevant to the claim that robots exhibit discontinuities. Again, UB made very clear that we are not talking about the origin of such things, but rather about their operation. Read his post @331. He even ridiculed me for imaging the topic had to do with the origin of the information, since he was perfectly clear (LOL) that he was only talking about the operation of the system. UB is wise to restrict the discussion to the operation of these systems rather than the origin of them. Veering off into discussions of "who designed the designer" doesn't help either side of this debate. UB is perfectly confused, however, about there being a "discontinuity" in the operation of machines like robots (or thermostats). Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 20, 2014
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RDF:
Would you say that just by writing down my list of associations I somehow transformed this machine from being reducible to physics into one that is not reducible to physics? No, of course not.
I would say that your machine has been intelligently designed and imbued with information. This information is not reducible to the physicochemical properties of the matter involved. Your machine is also irreducibly complex. These things would be apparent if your machine were discovered on a distant planet upon which no human had ever set foot. Paraphrasing the great philosopher Inigo Montoya, I do not think the points you are making mean what you think they mean.Phinehas
August 20, 2014
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RDF:
Anyway, Phinehas’ claim was that the mapping was necessarily non-deterministic, not that it was irreducible to the physical medium. He was wrong.
No, no, no. You get prickly when folks question your motivations here, but you really make it difficult to do otherwise. You so consistently misunderstand, mischaracterize, and misrepresent that it becomes difficult not to run these things through the explanatory filter and conclude design. I did not claim that the mapping was necessarily non-deterministic. My point was that where a signal chain is physically-causally deterministic (someone else referenced physio-chemical properties to make the same point), there is no room for mapping. If I came out with a new ball point pen with special ink that had a physio-chemical reaction with paper such that it automatically formed various letters on contact, the deterministic nature of this interaction would make the pen much less useful in writing meaningful sentences. That pens do not act this way, but instead provide a deterministic gap in the forming of letters, allows me to insert my own mapping scheme such that meaningful sentences can be written. Is this really that difficult to understand?Phinehas
August 20, 2014
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Hi William J Murray,
The difference between the two cases is that you were in the middle of a making a point that IDists offered no “single, canonical” definition of intelligence and UB pointed out with your own quotes that you had used the term in an argument here some time ago as if it had such a definition, going so far as to say that you were using it “the same way” as IDists were using it (even while claiming that no one knew what it meant).
I've explained this endlessly - you simply won't listen. How many times must I tell you that when IDists use the term they are simply using the vague descriptive label, like "atheltic", that refers to general human abilities. We use the word all the time that way, but it is completely useless as an explanatory construct in scientific theories unless one actually says which human abilities one is actually including! Does it imply conscious awareness? Does it imply free will? Does it imply learning? Does it imply use of natural language? Does it imply general mathematical abilities? Does it imply sentience? and so on and so on. IDists refuse to specify which (if any) of these traits are included. If you would like to take a stab at, be my guest - but if you'd like to cling to your claim that ID is scientific, be prepared to show empirical evidence that any of these particular traits are in evidence in the context of ID.
You demanded a “single, canonical” definition from IDists, ...
Simply because I have received so many completely different definitions from people here! Nobody disagrees about what "random mutation" means, contrary to your ridiculous implication. But what about "intelligence" in the context of ID? Here are just some example definitions I've gotten: Conscious thought. Thought that is not necessarily conscious. That which produces CSI. Something neither random nor determined. Something that can use natural language (this was VJTorley's definition) That which can make selections toward a goal (from StephenB) Something that has the same mental abilities as human beings Information processing Something human beings would recognize as "intelligent" (!) None of these definitions suit the purpose of ID, as I will happily show if you'd like to pick one or more of them that you believe are adequate to the task.
Here you are, loud and proud, asserting that weather processing solar radiation into a cyclone is qualitatively the same as a robot bird capable of processing input via signal interpretation
Good grief, you won't even read my arguments, yet you fool yourself into thinking you are rebutting them. I just got through saying that my point was NOT that weather and robots are "qualitatively the same", but rather my point was that just because there is a complex mapping of input to output doesn't mean there is a "discontinuity".
… as if the physical law that governs the interaction between ink and paper is sufficiently explanatory for “War and Peace”.
That is a ridiculous strawman, of course. The explanation for War and Peace is human authorship. That does not imply a "discontinuity" that defies determinism, and it does not imply an impossibility of reduction to physical events.
Apparently, RDFish expects that he could spill ink on paper and find the ink gathers up into comprehensible sentences and mathematical formulas.
You should be ashamed of your propensity for these stupid strawmen arguments. You refuse to give my arguments a fair reading, because somewhere deep inside you know that if you did, you would have to concede that your claims are unfounded. Would you like to prove me wrong? Read my explanation @387 to jul3s, where he helps me understand just what you, UB, et al are thinking, imagining that a robot exhibits a "discontinuity". If you will actually read my illustration there, and respond to it in good faith rather than making up silly strawmen, you will redeem yourself as someone who is willing to actually consider opposing views without silly pretense or simply running away. But if you simply keep repeating your strawman arguments and calling me a troll, you will reveal yourself to be nothing but a closed-minded troll yourself. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 20, 2014
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Hi Reciprocating Bill,
I think the argument is that the origins of a system embodying an arbitrary code transcends physics (we repeatedly hear that a code can’t be derived from the “inexorable laws” of physics) and therefore requires an intelligence, not that the operation of that code-system itself is somehow arbitrary, and therefore other than physical.
That is what I thought UB was talking about too. But then he ridiculed me for thinking that, and make very clear he was talking about the operation of the system, and not the origin. Unbelievable, right? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 20, 2014
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Hi JWTruthInLove,
Stop being such a jackass.
Sorry.
We agree that defining intelligence in terms of free will, determinism, natural, or non-natural clouds and poisons the issue unneccesary.
Ok, good.
We know we can identify human-designed results (see archaelogy etc.) without resorting to philosophical worldviews.
Yes.
We know materialists who don’t believe in free will can believe in ID (aliens designed humans).
Non-materialists can believe that too.
So what’s next?
Concede that if ID is talking about alien life forms, they don't have a very good theory. And if ID is talking about something that isn't an alien life form, they need to say something about what they are proposing, otherwise they aren't saying anything at all. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 20, 2014
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RDF:
So you believe that robots are necessarily non-deterministic – that they necessarily do not reliably map input to their actions?
What I believe is plainly clear in what I wrote. I do not think that anyone interested in giving a fair hearing to what I believe will struggle to understand it. That what so many write so plainly continues to confuse you speaks volumes.Phinehas
August 20, 2014
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It does NOT matter if intelligent agencies have free will or not. All that matters is that intelligent agencies can do things with nature that nature, operating freely, could not or would not do. And then intelligent agencies, such as humans, can come along and detect that action.Joe
August 20, 2014
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Reciprocating Bill:
I think the argument is that the origins of a system embodying an arbitrary code transcends physics (we repeatedly hear that a code can’t be derived from the “inexorable laws” of physics)...
LoL! You repeatedly hear that because that is what all the evidence, observations and experiences say.Joe
August 20, 2014
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In one argument, RDFish admits that CSI-rich information, like code, is only known to be produced by intelligent humans. In another, RDFish insists that the physical laws of the medium transporting the code is sufficient explanation for the existence of the code. Hmmm.William J Murray
August 20, 2014
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Juls3 said
The system in which the code operates obeys physical laws but the code is not reducible to physical law.
To which RDFish responds:
No, it is of course reducible to physical law. It is a deterministic physical machine that we understand fully, and I repeat: The operation can be reduced without remainder all the way down to physics.
... as if the physical law that governs the interaction between ink and paper is sufficiently explanatory for "War and Peace". The code that is transported by the medium is not explained by the physical properties of the medium. Apparently, RDFish expects that he could spill ink on paper and find the ink gathers up into comprehensible sentences and mathematical formulas. The properties of ink and paper do not generate code (CSI) simply by their physical interaction.William J Murray
August 20, 2014
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