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Does neo-Darwinian Theory Include the Origin of Life?

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Quite often when confronted with the problematic nature of explaining the arrival of the first life capable of supporting descent with modification an evolutionary theorist will say the theory has no bearing on how the first life came into existence – the theory only explains what happened after that.

Is this true?

Well, yes and no. Evolutionary theory doesn’t explain exactly how the first life was created and doesn’t demand any particular modus operandi. However, that’s not to say it doesn’t make any assumptions at all. It assumes that the first life was a simple cell and the mechanism(s) described by the theory made a simple common ancestor (or perhaps a few simple common ancestors) into the complex and diverse spectrum of life we observe today.

If you want to find out if NDE really cares about how life originated just try asserting that life originated as very complex forms that were programmed to diversify in a prescribed manner. Try saying the original form of life on the earth was like a stem cell in that it contained the unexpressed potential in it to diversify into many different forms with chance playing little if any role in the diversification process. Or better yet, for some real shrieking and howling rejection, try proposing that life originated as very complex perfect forms such as described in the Garden of Eden and the story of evolution is really a story of devolution from originally perfect, diverse forms.

In short not every modus operandi for the origin of life is acceptable – only those which don’t involve intelligent design in the origin of life. The problem is that if you admit intelligent design in the origin of life you open the door for it anywhere in the subsequent story of life. As Richard Lewontin said “We can’t let a divine foot in the door”. In actuality it’s the foot of any intelligent agent, divine or not, that isn’t allowed in the door.

It’s relatively easy to pin someone like Richard Dawkins into the uncomfortable position of either exposing his non-scientific presumptions about the origin of life or admitting that life on earth was possibly intelligently designed. All you have to do is get them to agree that intelligent life such as ourselves with the requisite skills in biochemistry to design a simple cell can evolve without intelligent agency. They are forced by their own beliefs to agree. Then you next ask if it’s possible that intelligent life evolved somewhere else in the universe first and that form subsequently designed the life we find on this planet. They must either agree that’s possible or explain why, scientifically, it isn’t possible. At that point they’re stuck between a rock and a hard place. In order to maintain the illusion of being an objective scientist with no ideological presuppositions they must admit that life on earth could be the result of design. Dawkins chose to maintain the illusion by admitting that design is a possibility then tried to weasel out of it by saying that the designer is almost certainly an evolved intelligence. If he doesn’t say almost certainly then again he admits to holding a non-scientific presumption.

Comments
Allen_MacNeill at 67:
. . .what I asserted — that Darwin never speculated about the origin of life in written works that he published during his lifetime — is an accurate depiction of the state of affairs as far as I know.
However, at 23 your actual assertion was unqualified:
evolutionary biologists do not speculate on the origin of life. Darwin didn’t, . . .
Thus, citing Darwin is still justified on your actual assertion, (not on what you wished you had said.)DLH
March 12, 2008
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JPCollado wrote: "...gravity is a known law of nature confirmed by repeatable testing and precise calculations, similar to quantum electrodynamics which is accurate to 13 unyielding decimal places." Yes, but neither Newton nor Einstein proposed any explanation of why the gravitational force exists, only that it does. Furthermore, the most important physicist in the development of quantum electrodynamics, Richard Feinman (formerly of Cornell, BTW) himself admitted that he couldn't explain why the theory works, only that it does. That is, the "law" of gravity and the theory of quantum electrodynamics are purely descriptive, and do no provide any explanation of why such forces exist in the first place.Allen_MacNeill
March 12, 2008
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Allen_MacNeill, (69) I'm surprised at you. After previously being reasonably careful, you state, regarding "the assertion that the origin of life from such chemicals is possible or impossible via natural means", "there is no empirical evidence either way, and I suspect there never will be." Now, I can understand if you said "there is no conclusive proof either way", or even "the evidence is weak." But don't Pasteur's experiments, or the difficulties in creating bases for nucleic acids, or the uniform failure of OOL experiments, or the absence of detectable life on Mars, even count as empirical evidence? I can understand why one might wish to disregard such evidence as not proving a naturalistic scenario wrong, and using that lack of proof to accept a physical or metaphysical theory that one finds attractive on other grounds. Faith, in science, is what keeps people searching for something until they find it, say, the HIV virus, or the effect of gravity on light. And faith sometimes has to go against the grain of the available empirical evidence. But really, to say that there is no empirical evidence at all?Paul Giem
March 12, 2008
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Joseph wrote: "Many scientists also are convinced that whales “evolved” from land mammals. However there isn’t any data that would demonstrate that such a transformation is even possible." On the contrary, there is a mountain of evidence for precisley this point, derived from multiple lines of empirical evidence. For example, there is a large and growing fossil record of intermediate forms, begining with a Paleocene artiodactyl and moving through such forms as Pakycetus up to modern-day Mysticeti. Furthermore, there is abundant evidence for the genetic modifications that took place during this series of phenotypic transitions. Finally, there is the fact (known since the early 19th century) that whales occasionally grow legs, which are anatomically extremely similar to those of tetrapods, especially artiodactyls. Once again, the inference that virtually all evolutionary biologists draw from such evidence is that whales evolved from an artiodactyl ancestor, and that this phenotypic evolution was correlated with corresponding genetic changes.Allen_MacNeill
March 12, 2008
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Joseph asked: "Has [Lynn Margulis] observed free-living bacteria engulfing other free-living bacteria, with the engulfed bacteria continuing to live inside of the first one?" Yes, thousands of times. You can, too; the most common example is a bacterium called Bdellavibrio, which penetrates the cells of other bacteria and lives inside them as a semi-parasite. However, a much more spectacular example is an Australian protozoan named Myxotricha paradoxa. This protozoan lives in the guts of wood-eating termites. On superficial examination, they appear to be very large ciliated protozoa. However, on closer examination they can be seen to consist of several hundred symbiotic bacteria of at least three distinct types ("species", although this concept does not apply to bacteria). Lynn often shows videos of Mixotricha to illustrate her concept of serial endosymbiosis (as she did in her lecture last month for Cornell's Darwin Day celebration).Allen_MacNeill
March 12, 2008
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Jerry These are really two separate issues. Each has no basis for their claims but how you assess each is quite different. I'm not really arguing with you with regard to this. My point is that there are people and institutions who are anti-IDists that don't separate the issues or separate the issues only when they perceive there to be some sort of political advantage which is even more troubling and rather non-scientific to boot. And it is not unreasonable to ask why this occurs -- the only answer I see is that they are seeking to establish a religion -- and to tell ID skeptics who visit this site and insist that OOL doesn't apply to evo that they are preaching to the wrong choir.tribune7
March 12, 2008
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Atom: thanks for your assessment.StephenB
March 12, 2008
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DLH wrote: "Consider if neo-Darwinian evolution assumes: * 1) Life which can experience “random mutation”. * 2) Life is self replicating and subject to subsequent “natural selection”. * 3) The four primary forces are sufficient to explain all processes observed in nature. Considering the theme of this thread, consider if neo-Darwinian evolution assumes: * 4) Intelligent causation of any of the genome or “phenome” is not detectable or testable. While not strictly the “origin” of life: * 5) The increase of information coded in DNA in more complex life forms occurred by naturally observed processes. (e.g., gene duplication, introns etc as you have listed). " Precisely; every one of these processes happen in and require the functional operation of already living cells. Once again, they do not happen (as far as we have been able to determine to date) in non-living arrangements of chemicals. This, therefore, neither "proves" nor "disproves" the assertion that the origin of life from such chemicals is possible or impossible via natural means. As I have stated before, this means that there is no empirical evidence either way, and I suspect there never will be.Allen_MacNeill
March 12, 2008
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Stanley Miller was not an evolutionary biologist. Indeed, he was not a biologist at all, he was a chemist, working in the laboratory of a physical chemist (Harold Urey). Furthermore, his research results were published in a journal of physical chemistry, not evolutionary biology. Regardless of whether one is a supporter of evolutionary biology or intelligent design, it should be clear that questions about the origin of life from non-living materials are questions about chemistry, not biology. Biology begins with living material (cells, etc.) and goes on from there.Allen_MacNeill
March 12, 2008
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DLH mentioned (as I expected someone would) that Darwin did mention the origin of life in a letter to Joaeph Hooker. However, this was a private letter, and was never published during Darwin's lifetime. Indeed, it was not published until the late 20th century, as part of the Darwin correspondence Project, now about to bring out volume 16 of Darwin's collected correspondence (they've been at it for over two decades, and nowhere near the end). In other words, what I asserted — that Darwin never speculated about the origin of life in written works that he published during his lifetime — is an accurate depiction of the state of affairs as far as I know.Allen_MacNeill
March 12, 2008
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Good point Atom. By the way, it is nice to see you posting on Uncommon Descent again.PannenbergOmega
March 12, 2008
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StephenB, Sometimes people have been banned or threatened to be banned for simply not agreeing after a long series of exchanges. The threat comes something like: "Consider yourself warned, if you keep posting nonsense and refuse to acknowlege the point I'm making you're outta here. I've had to correct you X amount of times, already..." more or less. I agree, sometimes posters will use sarcasm, mock or simply insult ID or IDers and so should be banned. But if you speak with a civil tone and still disagree with me, I see no reason to ban you. I think it stimulates the conversation on here when the other side gets involved. I've had or seen nice debates with Professor Olafsson, greatape, zachriel, Allen Macneill, etc. But then again, this isn't my site and I don't have to take out the trash, so to speak. I'm sure it gets tiring.Atom
March 12, 2008
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-----bfast: "A sad truth is that a number of scientists, zachriel comes to mind, have shared their knowledge on this forum in a reasonably tactful fashion, and got banned. I agree with you that knowledgable people from the other side of the equation are essential for our growth, and for keeping us honest." Is this really true? I have been around less than a year, so I could easily have missed something. During my time here, I have observed several bans, but I always knew the reason why. Are you suggesting that the arguments from the other side were so daunting that the ID administrators ran for the tall grass? I have a hard time believing that. What is your take on the reason they were expelled? Can you point me to a previous thread so I can make my own calculation about the justice or the injustice of the ban.StephenB
March 12, 2008
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I understand a lot of the OOL research is funded by NASA as part of their exobiology program. So my guess it is limited since there is little application to anything useful such as medicine which generates zillions of research money.jerry
March 12, 2008
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tribune7, It is probably that one person isn't talking with the other. I have seen four different versions of their evolution courses and origin of life is mentioned only in passing. I saw this web page a few years ago before I understood the debate as well as I do now and thought it was a big deal. Then I saw the same claim repeated several times by others. These are really two separate issues. Each has no basis for their claims but how you assess each is quite different.jerry
March 12, 2008
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As a follow up to post # 60 - The various contradicting statements found in the articles linked with evolution.berkeley leads me to conclude not to put too much stock in whatever they have to say, OOL in particular.JPCollado
March 12, 2008
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Yeah DLH and tribune, so much for not wanting your pants to get wet in soup. I like the link that DLH introduced. It has these interesting and choice quotes (bolded emphasis are mine):
Dr. Andy Ellington...studies evolution... uses evolutionary principles to evolve molecules [so if Dr. Ellington artificially induces these changes, it can't be darwinian in principle - - but the article does not make the required distinction] and organisms that serve all sorts of functions... Surprisingly, Andy's first research focus was not biotechnology, but the origin of life. [I thought specualtion of this area was not an issue with evolutionists] How did a scientist whose burning interest lies in the billion-year old chemical reactions of the primordial soup [notice that they take this at face value and expect people to go along with the tide] wind up running a lab of 50 people with millions of dollars in research grants? Although a fascinating issue, the origin of life typically does not attract much in terms of research funds. [I wonder why]Nevertheless, to Andy, the connection between origins research and evolutionary engineering is clear: "The same type of processes that would have led to functional molecules at or near origins are the processes that I use to make biosensors for military or homeland defense." [and people wonder why there is so much government waste. Here we have a PhD scientist who is supposed to be a very intelligent and capable guy equating the use of artificial (i.e. intelligently guided) methods to create biosensors with the materialistic process implicated in OOL, when they are clearly not the same thing. And the contradicting statements are made in the space of a few sentences! So much for editorializing.]
JPCollado
March 12, 2008
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Jerry, So when Berkeley has a web site -- geared at kids-- called "Understanding Evolution, Evolution 101" and has it first page call "From soup to cells -- the origin of life" they mean what? I'd say they are trying to have their soup and eat it too.tribune7
March 12, 2008
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evolution.berkeley further touts: From the origin of life to the future of biotech: The work of Andy Ellington The understatements of the day at: How did life originate?
"RNA and DNA molecules — the genetic material for all life — are just long chains of simple nucleotides."
Many biologists hypothesize that this step led to an "RNA world" in which RNA did many jobs, storing genetic information, copying itself, and performing basic metabolic functions. Today, these jobs are performed by many different sorts of molecules (DNA, RNA, and proteins, mostly), but in the RNA world, RNA did it all.
DLH
March 12, 2008
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Let me also add that evolution.berkley also lists ancient fossils and phylogenetics as lines of evidence to "help illuminate the origin of life." So Mr. MacNeill's position that there is no speculation on the side of evolutionary biologists concerning OOL is without basis.JPCollado
March 12, 2008
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JPCollado: “If a theory is to be hailed as the cornerstone of a particular field of study it should at least fruitfully address the origin of the very thing that it purports to explain.” Allen_MacNeill @ 23 responded: “By your criteria, then, physics has no business studying gravity, since it proposes no origin for it, and chemistry has no business studying atoms, as it proposes no origin for subatomic particles. […] Speculating about the origin of life […] isn’t evolutionary biology, which presupposes the existence of life in the same way that gravitational physics presupposes the existence of gravitational force.” Mr. MacNeill, You are providing a faulty analogy. (1) first of all, the study of gravity and atoms is akin to the study of homeostasis and cells in biology, yet neither is called upon as a proper framework for the initial exploration of the origin of the universe or life, respectively. (2) the origin of gravity has been intensely studied and is well established, albeit some minor exceptions. (3) scientists have also proposed to explain the origin of the universe by way of multiple theoretical models, not the least of which is the Big Bang, the grand-daddy of them all (which, again, has nothing to do with gravity and atoms as starting points – see note 1 above). (4) gravity is a known law of nature confirmed by repeatable testing and precise calculations, similar to quantum electrodynamics which is accurate to 13 unyielding decimal places. But Darwin's theory makes no identical predictions at all and has not been observed with the same degree of mathematical precision and experimental certainty. (5) we don’t hear cosmologists, physicists or chemists praising a particular theory as the cornerstone of the physical sciences. We do, however, hear about Kepler’s laws of planetary motion as forming an important foundation for later cosmological research and further enrichment of our understanding of the heavens. Kepler’s rigorous methods, though, are vastly different from those employed by evolutionists.JPCollado
March 12, 2008
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Thank you jerry. Let me provide the link once more since the one I included @ 53 above apparently has the wrong file: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/origsoflife_01 Now if it is true that evolutionary biology plays a minor or insignificant role in OOL research, then the heading of the article is very misleading: "From soup to cells — the origin of life" How can a website devoted to the furtherance of evolutionary education make such a strong statement without providing the facts? Surely, this will entail discussion of OOL, which is what supposedly evolutionary biology is not concerned with. Yet, the statement compels further discussion and explanation of the matter. How do they know that the original cell formed from a soup of chemicals? Do they really want to get into the foibles of such ponderings? Is it not better just to start with the cell and proceed from there? If OOL is not the mainstay, it would behoove them not make statements like that, for obvious reasons. The site continues:
It's important to keep in mind that changes to these hypotheses [about how life originated] are a normal part of the process of science and that they do not represent a change in the basis of evolutionary theory. [emphasis mine]
How do they know it would not change their current understanding of evolutionary theory when OOL is not even a domain of research, or when all of the full blown implications of such research have not been clearly spelled out as of yet? This sounds to me more like an emotional response to the dilemma posed by OOL. If it is determined that the process that gave rise to the first cell is in fact imbued with intelligence, then this will have tremendous implications for a theory that is materialistic-based and reductive-mechanistic by nature. Notwithstanding, my question to Mr. MacNeill still merits attention: the statement that “within the field of evolutionary biology, the origin of life is of special interest” thus spurring the creation of hypotheses to deal with this issue is still in conflict with what Mr. MacNeill maintained @ post # 23.JPCollado
March 12, 2008
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University of California at Berkeley has been on record for several years that evolution is not concerned about the origin of life See this on their website about evolution http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/misconceps/IAorigintheory.shtml It is standard with evolutionary biologists to not be concerned with OOL. It is an important issue and one often misrepresented in textboøks but usually only a minor discussion within the discussion of evolution.jerry
March 12, 2008
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tribune7 @ 33 wrote: “It seems they want to have their soup and eat it too." Origin of Life in Evolution 101 from Understanding Evolution at Berkeley.edu Hey tribune, thanks for the web link. And great rejoinder too! This contradicts Mr. MacNeill’s assertion @ 23, when he wrote: “Furthermore, as I have repeated multiple times, evolutionary biologists do not speculate on the origin of life.” Perhaps Mr. MacNeill could clarify, especially when the site,
[...] is a collaborative project of the University of California Museum of Paleontology and the National Center for Science Education. [in addition to the following organizations] American Institute of Biological Sciences (AIBS) National Evolutionary Synthesis Center (NESCent) [And also] Support for Understanding Evolution has been provided by The National Science Foundation and the Howard Hughes Medical Institute.
Maybe Mr. MacNeill is not aware of his colleagues' efforts in the field? Mr. MacNeill? {DLH added Origin of Life Link & corrected other link to Evolution of Life http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/home.php }JPCollado
March 12, 2008
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Allen -- with regard to DLH post 43. It seems almost self-evident that OOL and evolution are conflated. You may not think it proper but that is the reality.tribune7
March 12, 2008
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Having not read Spetner's book, wouldn't his hypothesis be easy to test. Just change the environmental cues and watch what happens. I am sure this has been done many times with various species. There should be a lot of published results.jerry
March 12, 2008
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Allen, Thanks for the book recommendations. I will be reading them. The book Jerry just received "Evo in 4 Dim" at least appears to mirror Dr Lee Spetner's "non-random evolutionary hypothesis" in which "built-in responses to environmental cues" is the main mechanism for adaptation. Thanks again- live long and prosper...Joseph
March 12, 2008
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H'mm: First, best wishes to Joseph for a speedy recovery. It also seems from his remarks just above, that there is an issue that needs to be firmly addressed:
[Allen:] And, while we’re at it, what field and laboratory research have you done to collect empirical evidence for an alternate theory, and where has it been published? [Joseph:] I have been too busy working on national security issues- detecting biological & chemical agents- and recovering from injuries I sustained in Iraq- three surgeries down and hopefully only one more to go.
We need to look seriously at the issue of empirical testing and scientific hypotheses, as there is a whole province of such testing that, IMHBCO is not being properly and squarely faced by advocates of the evolutionary materialist paradigm. Accordingly, I [again this morning . . .] need to excerpt from the Altenberg thread at 204:
Science is indeed in large part about inference to best current explanation, and retroductive, unifying explanation of diverse phenomena is as important and often at least as powerful as prediction. Some would indeed argue that prediction is a subset of such empirical explanation, i.e providing a unifying construct that points to as yet non-instantiated empirical data. That is, the logic in basic form has structure, where T – theory, O – observation of fact, P – prediction of not yet observed fact: T –> {O1, O2, . . . On} AND {P1, P2, . . . Pm}, where the marker between O’s and P’s is set temporally and sometimes financially. [Recall here the unbuilt super-collider that was going to be the lifetime employment programme for a lot of physicists . . . pardon my hints of cynicism.] However, there is a further factor, as — as GP hints at — domains in science interact. Namely, there are also points where theories have bridges (B) to other domains in science and associated bodies of accepted theory. Thus, we extend the basic model: T –> {O1, O2, . . . On} AND {P1, P2, . . . Pm} AND {B1, B2, . . . Bk} The classic current a case in point would be quantum physics which unifies across a very large cluster of domains across several entire fields of science and associated technologies, brilliantly. Never mind its own gaping inner challenges. Now, too, let us observe: when a bridge to another established domain in science opens up, all at once there is the major potential for cross-checks across entire domains. Thus, the opening of a bridge is fraught with potential for confirmation and disconfirmation, as all at once whole new domains of fact and associated theories are exposed to mutual cross-examination. If there is mutual coherence and support, then it lends our confidence in the underlying constructs in both domains a greatly enhanced weight of credence. [For instance, think here on the import of key bridging concepts such as atoms, energy, particles such as electrons, the wave concept, and now information.] But, on the other hand, where there is incoherence, we then have to look at the weights of the relevant alternative explanations and come to conclusions on where the changes need to be made. That is a major reason why I take the design inference seriously, as the progress of molecular scale biology over the past 60 or so years has revealed elements of a complex, in part digitally based information system at the core of cell based life. Onward, that bridges to an even more established domain of science, thermodynamics. One may deny the bridges but they plainly are there and it boils down to this: the current dominant chance + necessity only paradigm in biology is deeply challenged to account coherently for the information systems and content at the core of cell based life. Now, there is an alternative paradigm, design, that can. But it is controversial as it cuts across major worldview level commitments of many leading practitioners in the sciences. So, we now see a major political dust-up taking place, across entire domains of science and also in the education system and wider culture, where key dominant elites have embedded in key elements of the evolutionary materialist paradigm in their worldviews and life/culture agendas.
1 --> The existence of the information bridge implies, inter alia that work in information science is relevant to work on relevant alternate theories. 2 --> The key points on the exhaustion of probabilistic resources in searching config spaces of 10^300 or more cells on the gamut of the observed cosmos to find islands of bio-functionally relevant information, has been published in all sorts of peer reviewed literature by many people, as can easily be documented from the list of peer-reviewed articles at DI. 3 --> Actually though the peer reviewed research issue is a red herring leading to a strawman. For the underlying issue is well known and long since deeply embedded in the world of experience. Functionally specified complex information is to date only observed to be produced by intelligent agents, usually in the context of intentional activity, i.e design. The posts on this web page are immediately accessible cases in point. [Cf my "lucky noise" discussion in Section A of my always linked.] 4 --> So, there is a burden of proof shifting attempt going on. The real issue is that evo mat advocates are asserting -- in the teeth of overwhelming improbability linked directly to the reasons we have confidence in the 2nd law of thermodynamics and the law of large numbers in statistics [cf my thought expt case study here, that expands Hoyle's 747 in a junkyard by a tornado illustration] -- that mere bare logical or physical possibility is enough to overcome such overwhelming improbability. 5 --> Sorry, we aren't buying that story anymore -- you are up against overwhelming improbabilities on the scale of the observed cosmos, so much so that there is in praxis no effective difference between the probabilities and a practical/empirical zero. [Indeed in stat thermodynamics it is common to see odds of 1 in 10^50 being viewed as effectively zero.] 6 --> Nor does positing quasi-infinite arrays of cosmi with suitably scattered physical parameters get you any further than directly implying that we have crossed over from empirically anchored science to metaphysical speculation. On philosophy, we have a right to demand that ALL materially relevant alternative worldviews be admitted to the level playing field of comparative difficulties. 7 --> And that is before we get to discussing the outrageous censorship and career-busting multiplied by outright slander being carried out by the evolutionary materialist establishment. (Hence the likely success of Expelled.) As they say in my homeland: "wheel and tun and come again." GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 12, 2008
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BTW without free oxygen how did the nucleotides- you know the building blocks of DNA & RNA- come to be? (only the purine adenine is without O)Joseph
March 12, 2008
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Joseph asked (about Lynn Margulis): “How is her testing coming?” Just fine, thank you. Has she observed free-living bacteria engulfing other free-living bacteria, with the engulfed bacteria continuing to live inside of the first one? She’s been working hard in the field and in the laboratory, collecting empirical evidence that has convinced virtually every scientist in the world that her serial endosymbiotic theory of the origin of eukaryotes is the best supported theory for that process. Many scientists also are convinced that whales "evolved" from land mammals. However there isn't any data that would demonstrate that such a transformation is even possible. Some of this is summarized in Symbiosis in Cell Evolution (for which she has been repeatedly nominated for a Nobel Prize). Have you read it? I have read much of her work. I have read quite a bit on serial endosymbiosis- pros & cons. I will see about that book though. Thanks. Have you read: Kurland CG, Collins LJ, Penny D. Genomics and the irreducible nature of eukaryote cells. Science. 2006 May 19;312(5776):1011-4. Al Gore received a Nobel Prize for something that turned out to be bogus. And, while we’re at it, what field and laboratory research have you done to collect empirical evidence for an alternate theory, and where has it been published? I have been too busy working on national security issues- detecting biological & chemical agents- and recovering from injuries I sustained in Iraq- three surgeries down and hopefully only one more to go.Joseph
March 12, 2008
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