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Why is the debate over design theory so often so poisonous and polarised?

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To answer this one, we need to go as far back as Aristotle’s The Rhetoric some 2300 years ago.

In this verbal self-defense classic — as in: “you gotta know what can be done, how, if you are to effectively defend yourself . . . ” —  on what has aptly been called the devilish art of persuasion by any means fair or foul, Aristotle (left, courtesy Wiki, public domain)  found this key answer to the question “How do arguments work to persuade us?” in Book I Ch 2:

“Of the modes of persuasion furnished by the spoken word there are three kinds. The first kind depends on the personal character of the speaker [ethos]; the second on putting the audience into a certain frame of mind [pathos]; the third on the proof, or apparent proof, provided by the words of the speech itself [logos]. Persuasion is achieved by the speaker’s personal character when the speech is so spoken as to make us think him credible . . . Secondly, persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile . . . Thirdly, persuasion is effected through the speech itself when we have proved a truth or an apparent truth by means of the persuasive arguments suitable to the case in question . . .”

Now, of course, as clever ad men and smart politicians have long since known, the most persuasive form of argument is the appeal to our emotions and underlying perceptions. Unfortunately, how we feel about something or someone is no more reasonable or accurate than the quality of the facts beneath our perceptions.

But, what does this dusty quip by a long since dead philosopher have to do with science and getting rid of creationists and their dishonest attempts to push in the supernatural into science by the back door?

A lot, and indeed that artfully cultivated and widely spread perception that we are dealing with “a war between religion and science” is at the heart of the problem.

For, if clever but willfully deceptive rhetors — Ms Forrest, B, with all due respect; sadly,  this means you — can get away with strawmannising and dismissing design thinkers as “Creationists in cheap tuxedos,” where it has already been firmly fixed in the public mind by other clever rhetors — Mr Dawkins, CR, with all due respect; sadly, this means you — that Creationists are “ignorant, stupid, insane and/or wicked,” and that such are fighting “a war against science” and want to impose “a right-wing theocracy” (presumably  complete with Inquisitions and burnings at the stake) then we can be distracted from the issues on the merits and be lured into burning ad hominem- soaked de-humanised creationist strawmen.

That’s how we come to the way a priori evolutionary materialism is now often presented as if it were the defining essence of science, “science” in this sense being taken for granted as the defining essence of “rationality.”

This last is why, in his 1997 NYRB review of Sagan’s last book, Lewontin notoriously said:

. . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997.  Emphases added. (NB: before following red herrings out to strawman rebuttal talking points, kindly, follow the link to see the context.)]

As in:  fallacy of the question-begging materialist assumption and the resulting materialism-indoctrinated, closed mind presented under false colours of science, anyone?

ID thinker, Philip Johnson’s reply that November was therefore richly deserved:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose” . . . .
The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Let’s set a contrast, by proposing a definition of science as it should be at its best, one rooted in classic definitions of science and its method (i.e. those from the days before methodological naturalism was being artfully pushed into such definitions):

science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive, {U/D, 06:02: observational evidence-led} pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on:

a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical — real-world, on the ground — observations and measurements,

b: inference to best current — thus, always provisionalabductive explanation of the observed facts,

c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using  logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [including Einstein’s favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments],

d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and,

e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, “the informed” is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.)

As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world.

So, plainly, no authority — even one wearing The Holy Lab Coat — is better than his or her facts, assumptions and reasoning.

As just one instance, why is it that we so often see the contrast, natural vs supernatural, when in fact ever since Plato in The Laws, Bk X, what design thinkers have put on the table is first of all the question of inferring on observable and reliable empirical signs (and this link has a counter to yet another red herring-strawman distractor) to nature vs art?

So also, we must never forget: only an argument that focuses on the merits of the well-warranted material facts — the facts that make a difference to the conclusion —  and on correct reasoning about those facts, can hope to properly warrant a conclusion.  Just so, we must also recognise that when we come to matters of fact and observation, such warrant will always be provisional.  That’s why Physics — the senior science — has undergone two major revolutions within 250 years.

When we deal with origins science issues, a further factor comes in: we are now dealing with the model, reconstructed remote past beyond observation and record. A model past that serves as a worldview foundation for many. And, since evolutionary materialism is inherently relativistic and amoral — it has in it no grounding is that can ground ought (cf. here) — we are thus right back at the force of Plato’s warning in Bk X of The Laws:

[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical “material” elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . .
[T]hese people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made. [Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke’s views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic “every man does what is right in his own eyes” chaos leading to tyranny.)] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here],  these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless tyranny; here, too, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . . [Jowett translation. Emphases and explanatory parentheses added.]

To all of this, we must add the baneful and growing influence across our civilisation of the neo-marxist (and yes, he was just that — cf. RFR’s prologue here and a survey of Marxism here)  radical, Saul Alinsky. For instance, in his Rules for Radicals, we may read the following observations, recommendations and thoughts:

“The end is what you want, the means is how you get it. Whenever we think about social change, the question of means and ends arises. The man of action views the issue of means and ends in pragmatic and strategic terms. He has no other problem; he thinks only of his actual resources and the possibilities of various choices of action. He asks of ends only whether they are achievable and worth the cost; of means, only whether they will work. … The real arena is corrupt and bloody.” p.24

“The first step in community organization is community disorganization. The disruption of the present organization is the first step toward community organization. Present arrangements must be disorganized if they are to be displace by new patterns…. All change means disorganization of the old and organization of the new.” p.116

3. “Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

4. “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.”

[Of course, here — even at the rhetorical risk of inviting the onward tactic of deflecting a well-warranted point by using turnabout accusation — I can only speak as one finite, fallible, fallen sinner in recovery through grace to others who may access the same grace: moral struggle is a key characteristic of any serious attempt to walk in virtue. But if you go for the polarising credibility kill of characterising the other side as all hypocrites, in the end, you face the issue of the plank in your own eyes. So, while there is no immoral equivalency, this point cuts just as sharply on both sides of any issue, including this one.  Let us all therefore turn from such destructive, even demonic tactics. Far better is to accept that we all struggle and must try to help one another (even when neighbour love calls for frank correction), instead of playing at dehumanising finger-pointing games compounded by the cruel tactic of incendiary ridicule. He who plays with rhetorical matches may set a fire that blazes beyond his ability to contain.]

5. “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.” . . . .

13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. [NB: Notice the evil counsel to find a way to attack the man, not the issue. The easiest way to do that, is to use the trifecta stratagem: distract, distort, demonise.] In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and ‘frozen.’…

“…any target can always say, ‘Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?’ When your ‘freeze the target,’ you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments…. Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the ‘others’ come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target…’

One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other.” (pp. 127 – 134.)

The cynically amoral and polarised rhetorical pattern, sadly, is instantly recognisable from the tactics commonly used to oppose design thought in the public and in the policy making arena.

It even creeps into Faculty Seminar rooms and scientific institutions. But, in the end, if we begin to think and act like this, it will do no one any good.

Far better, is to take the stance of Aristotle, where one studies rhetoric for self-defense, to the intent of exposing evil counsel, and calling the public and policy makers to a better way: building bridges, not walls.

It is high time that the debates over design theory and thought moved on beyond the destructive rhetoric of the trifecta fallacy: red herring subject-changing distractors, led away to caricatured and deceitful strawman misrepresentations of design thought, soaked in ad hominem false accusations and ignited through snide or incendiary rhetoric.

For, if such rhetoric and incivility are unchecked, the temporary advantage of clouding issues, poisoning and polarising the atmosphere will be bought at the bitter price of a breakdown of our character and the foundational mutual respect that is needed if we are to build a future worth having.

Materialists and fellow travellers: victory at any price may be bought at a price so dear as to be ruinous. END

_________

F/N: News, in a new post, highlights a key example of the unfortunate red herring, strawman, ad hominem distortions we discussed above, in this case, from P Z Myers. And, as for the comments section . . .

Comments
Dr Liddle: It does seem we are in fundamental agreement. Sadly, California provided some of the key models for Nazi law. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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Null: Applied scientists -- "I are one" -- do bridge the gap between science and engineering. Utility for application based on empirical reliability of facts, theories and models is a legitimate aspect of science. BTW, Einstein held a patent on a special type of absorption refrigerator, and he also contributed to the solution of the dud torpedo problem in WW II. Other leading scientists were involved in the cutting edge design work that was so vital to the Allied and Axis war efforts. And that continues to this day. For instance Robotics and AI are interdisciplinary and involve all sorts of professionals. If you will look it up, IEEE embraces scientists and mathematicians as well as engineers. Indeed, that is part of how some of the papers by Marks and Dembski are published through the IEEE. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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kf @ 34: I apologise, but I managed to scroll past your post thinking it was one I had already read. We seem to be in broad agreement here, thankyou :)Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
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Neil at #51,
Thank you very much for that personal insult. I shall wear it with pride.
In your first comment (which I responded to) you made an assertion with no backing whatsosever. You simply declared "0% evidence" for ID. The basis of your declaration, apparently, is that you made it. In your second response, you simply declared there is "nothing abstract" about DNA. Again, no backing, just assertion. Neil, if you want to wear an insult, then knock yourself out. You've earned it.Upright BiPed
May 31, 2011
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In defence (who, me?) of the notion that Darwin influenced Hitler - I don't know much about Hitler (and want to know less, frankly), but I often find myself shocked by the attitudes that were plainly taken for granted in "intellectual" circles in Britain, for instance, in the thirties (before the horrors of Hitler's eugenics programme were known, of course). In Dorothy L. Sayers' novel, "Gaudy Night", for instance, there is (IIRC - it's a while since I read it), there's a (fictional, obviously) High Table discussion at Oxford about eugenicist ideas then current Germany. It's fairly clear that Sayers doesn't approve the discussion (she puts the argument in the mouth of a not-very-sympathetic character) but what it reveals is that clearly, to Sayers,such a view was neither deeply shocking, nor taboo, in the Oxford of her time. I think it is probably true that Darwin's book did make people wonder about the future of the human race, and whether it was right to facilitate (or even prevent) the breeding of the "unfit". Post holocaust we now know where that kind of thinking can lead us. But I would tend to agree that it was "in the air" of the thirties, and not just in Germany - and probably because of Darwin (and others, of course - remember Wallace got there at the same time). However, I still say that what moral (or immoral) conclusions people draw from science is totally irrelevant to the question as to whether or not the science is valid. Perhaps some truths are dangerous to know, but it still doesn't make them untrue. It does place a grave responsibility on scientists, however, to speak out when their ideas are misused to justify immoral positions.Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
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Onlookers: Let me clip the original post, as this reveals the strawman tactic just above: ____________ >> science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on: a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical — real-world, on the ground — observations and measurements, b: inference to best current — thus, always provisional — abductive explanation of the observed facts, c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [including Einstein's favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments], d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and, e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, “the informed” is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.) As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world. >> ____________ In case some do not know, the agenda just highlighted ends in precisely the applications that are so often used in engineering, based on tested and empirically reliable theories and models. Remember, this is in the context of the dismissal that I am putting up empty contentless rhetoric in the IOSE course from which this clip comes. I take this as evidence that NR did not take time to do due diligence reading of even the OP, much less the IOSE he was invited to address on the merits but chose to dismiss, before objecting. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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Neil, If science were a search for truth, then today we should have extremely accurate descriptions of lightning, hair standing on end, etc. Instead, we have electric toasters, refrigerators, lighting, computers. The goals of science have to be far wider than a “search for truth” to have those achievements. Science is not engineering. If you want to find the people who have developed toasters, refrigerators, lighting, computers, etc, you're largely going to be looking at guys who are not scientists, even if they make reference to science at points in their technological developments. It's funny you mention lighting, since Edison said outright that he was an inventor, not a scientist.nullasalus
May 31, 2011
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Upright BiPed: Thanks for your response. I'm a bit surprised by it,tbh. I thought I was referring to something that was pretty self-evident, so I guess I've learned something :) It hadn't actually occurred to me that anyone thought that the reason that CTA maps to leucine is anything other than, well, the fact that CUA, in the contexts of a codon, catalyses a CTA RNA sequence, and thence leucine. Are you saying that CTA might just as easily catalyse valine? In which case, what stops it doing so? tbh, I simply don't have the evidence you ask for, so, shame on me. But I'd certainly like to know what mechanism you propose "tells" the RNA molecule that if it has a CTA codon,it has to make leucine not something else. It seems to me that the CTA sequence makes leucine because that's what a CTA sequence does! A codon's gotta do what a codon's gotta do. And if there's an answer to "why", it's going to lie in the physics and chemistry, and stereochemistry of the CTA bonds. Not in a lookup decoder table.Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
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KF @ 28 and 34 - regarding Darwin, there are, I believe, many eminent historians who would disagree with Mrs O'leary. You say this
Unfortunately, the force of Darwin’s words in Descent, were that the so-called more advanced races would push the so-called less advanced (evolutionarily) ones to extinction. Having made that prediction Darwin simply went on to his next point on gappiness of the fossil record, as though he had not highlighted a major moral hazard.
If you read the full text you see that the example of more advanced species destroying less advanced ones was part of his point about gaps and how they can occur. He did not, as you say, make a prediction about species killing off other species and then move on to make a point about gaps, the bit about killing comes in the middle of a paragraph about gaps between species. In any case Darwins words appear to be an expression of his belief about what humans would inevitably do rather than a scientific prediction that stems from his theory, but I suspect you will choose to read it differently.
I am pretty sure Darwin — a gentleman, in the end — would have been horrified by the consequences of what he tossed off in a few paragraphs, and failed to pause and highlight an alternative to. But the issue of the implications was there, and it was taken up,
It's hard to see what you mean. Darwin doesn't propose eugenics in any of his writing, and in some parts he explicitly warns against the dangers of employing methods of artificial selection, that were already in use by farmers for centuries before, on humans. When it comes down to it though nothing about Darwins character, or any political agenda that his theory might have been twisted to support, has an impact on whether his theory provided an accurate framework for explaining observed phenomena. And I don't believe that ANYTHING in the theory of evolution as it was in Darwins day implied that Eugenics was a good idea. If Darwins attempt to formulate a theoretical framework for describing how species evolve led to the persecution of the Jews then that is unfortunate, but has no bearing on whether his theory was good. In the same way, if the anti semitic writings of the German priest Martin Luther led to the persecution of the Jews then it is not the fault of Jesus or the Bible. Luther is, after all, widely referenced by writers supporting the third reich - but were they just being opportunistic? Or more perhaps a more directly relevant analogy to the debate on Hitler would be to ask - Does the Bible imply antisemitism or was it just abused to support that ideology?DrBot
May 31, 2011
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Upright BiPed (#44)
As I said earlier, perhaps you should educate yourself before commenting.
Thank you very much for that personal insult. I shall wear it with pride.
It might be helpful to realize that if ID was, as you said, without a shred of evidence, then ID would be falsified, and that falsification of ID would be in the scientific record, and that record would be at the very center of the debate.
Either the search function in my browser is broken, or the only poster who has used the expression "shred of evidence" in this thread is Upright Biped.Neil Rickert
May 31, 2011
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NR: Kindly look at the Original post, at the point where I take time to discuss what science is about and how it goes about it. The search for the truth about our cosmos is a vital component of science and a key preserver of the integrity and credibility of science. Note how above I have spoken to the explore, describe explain predict control/influence application agenda. It also turns out to be true that the openness to all reasonable possible explanations instead of imposing censorship by a priori materialism, is a key issue on what has gone wrong with origins science, which would have the effect of ideologising science and abusing its reputation for seeking the truth about our world. To see a parallel look at the Climategate scandal and its impact. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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kairosfocus (#39)
If you don’t believe that searching for the truth about our world in light of empirical evidence, observation, experiment, analysis, modelling etc is key to good science, that explains a lot. The name of the game is scientific integrity, and trying to get to and be honest about the accurate truth about the world is a non-negotiable if science is to keep its integrity and in the end its credibility.
You are mischaracterizing what I said. I was not in any way suggesting that scientists do not care about the truth of their statements. In the 18th century, scientists investigated phenomena such as lightning, hair standing on end, sparks when you touch something metal after walking on a carpet. If science were a search for truth, then today we should have extremely accurate descriptions of lightning, hair standing on end, etc. Instead, we have electric toasters, refrigerators, lighting, computers. The goals of science have to be far wider than a "search for truth" to have those achievements.Neil Rickert
May 31, 2011
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@kairosfocus
Dr Liddle, I would say in the context of the dismissive remark and my pointing to some specific content as a challenge, that BA’s remarks were relevant, not distractive led away to strawman caricatures and incendiary dismissals. BA has been very much the gentleman all along for years, our resident rare quotes clipper and pointer to vids no-one else seems to have spotted.
I meant no offence, and if I caused any, I apologise.Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
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DrBOT kindly tell us some of your war stories. For one of mine, I once had a spike eating capacitor that would not work as a ceramic disk, the standard one for that job. I was forced to use Silvered Mica, nothing else would work. Since this was a research one-off design, I could do that and move on to more important foci instead of wasting valuable time, and I did. Can you imagine what would happen to someone coming back and seeing a "too expensive" silvered mica cap sitting in the midst of a digital ckt board? BAD DESIGN -- had to have happened by chance! But, this was a case of a trade-off: one-off design so if the fix works on what is in the end a minor headache, go for it. I also once knew a man who designed an IR controller that used rejected BJT's, resistors etc in a common emitter fixed bias ckt, used in ways that I have never seen such a ckt used before. I remembered observing: simple ckt, sophisticated design. The ckt was far simpler looking than the design that went into it, including being able to use reject parts that were there for picking up. And yes, this was a commercial design constrained on cost, for a use and throw away system. Gkairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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Dr Liddle,
But my point, I guess, is that these are not arbitrary/symbolic mappings. You can’t just make one codon code for different amino acid by declaring it so in some look-up dictionary – in that sense, DNA is more like a jig, or a template than a code. The mapping arises directly from the physical chemistry.
This is simply an assumption without any physical evidence to support it. In fact, the physical observations go in the opposite direction at every turn. Like many others, I have been following this debate for years on end, and in all that time I have been patiently waiting for someone to publish the purely chemical basis for the mapping of C-T-A to Leucine (as an example). A demonstration of that chemical basis does not exist, and consequently neither does its publication. Like a red plastic ball, all of the chemistry involved follows the laws of physics with absolute fidelity, but there is nothing in the chemistry of a red plastic ball that explains its existence. What was required is not in the chemistry. Now if you find yourself to be a self-aware red plastic ball, you will see nothing but chemistry if that is what you determine yourself to see, but that changes nothing about the observable evidence to the contrary.
I don’t see why
Because if polyuracil wasn’t mapped to phenylalanine he wouldn’t have discovered the semiotic relationship which exists between the two.
Well, no, that’s my point. Unless there is prior agreement as to what the signal means, the other boat crew could radically misinterpret it (as I know to my cost). That is not the case with DNA, because the reason a given codon catalyses the formation of a given amino acid lies in the chemical properties of those bases, not some arbitrary look-up table. There is no look-up table!
The rules and conventions in protein synthesis are instantiated in the decoding system itself (where else would it be in an autonomous entity?). In that system, there is no direct chemical link from nucleic acid to amino acid. The two do not physically interact. The anticodon is at one end of the tRNA molecule, and the amino acid is at the other. You may have been mis-led otherwise. Truly, how much more convincing these arguments would have been if either of the two assumptions you’ve demonstrated in your response had come to pass as man discovered the systems which organize matter into living things - but they simply didn’t. Nice to meet you as well ;)Upright BiPed
May 31, 2011
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Dr BOT: Lucky you -- the U of K just had to pay out US$ 125,000 on a job application improperly torpedoed by the ideologues, and there have been a fair number of similar high profile cases recently. You may also want to look at The Slaughter of the Dissidents as already linked. Gkairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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Neil at 30 "There is nothing abstract about DNA. It is no more abstract than are the cogs (gear teeth) in the gearbox of my car." Neil your first comment was nothing more than an unpleasant dismissal. Now you've returned to perform the same act for a second showing. It might be helpful to realize that if ID was, as you said, without a shred of evidence, then ID would be falsified, and that falsification of ID would be in the scientific record, and that record would be at the very center of the debate. Repeated over and over again. The index numbers and publication date would be the stuff of legends. But it doesn't exist, Neil. As I said earlier, perhaps you should educate yourself before commenting.Upright BiPed
May 31, 2011
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The party of scientism has a main faction, the evolutionary materialists. These are supported by various fellow travellers who more or less find ways to toe the partyline.
I've worked with a lot of scientists and I can't say I've ever encountered people like this.DrBot
May 31, 2011
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KF @ 38 I've done all these things and more.DrBot
May 31, 2011
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F/N 2: The party of scientism has a main faction, the evolutionary materialists. These are supported by various fellow travellers who more or less find ways to toe the partyline.kairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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F/N: DNA is most definitely NOT a catalyst, it is an information store. Some RNA's show some catalytic effects, easing reaction pathways (and thus drastically upping reaction rates), but that is a very different thing. The primary catalysts in the observed living cell are enzymes, which are specialised proteins, coded for in DNA, and effected suing RNA and proteins in ribosomes, with tRNAs and mRNAs.kairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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NR: If you don't believe that searching for the truth about our world in light of empirical evidence, observation, experiment, analysis, modelling etc is key to good science, that explains a lot. The name of the game is scientific integrity, and trying to get to and be honest about the accurate truth about the world is a non-negotiable if science is to keep its integrity and in the end its credibility. BTW, the difference between seeking truth as closely as you can get it and seeking empirically useful results is a key marker of the distinction between modelling and theorising. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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Mung: Evidently, the commenters have never heard of an evolutionary spiral strategy for system development, which creates alpha beta, release candidate, release 1.0, 2.0 etc and sub versions. They have never heard of modularity, parts libraries, reuse and modification of components, etc etc. And more. they have not seen how hard it is to get the functionally specific complex organisation of a system set up and adjusted to put it at a robust operating point, not to mention what is needed to control quality to get consistently effective delivered product, and so much more. Have they ever had to troubleshoot in a multi-fault development system environment. (I think that the book, The Soul of a New Machine would be a good reference for the troubles that one has! BTW, is Data General still in existence?) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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Have you done any serious hard or software designs in your work? What characteristics do you notice about designed things?
The most obvious difference is that they are very different from evolved things.
My designs have a rather peculiar feature then, in that they also evolve.Mung
May 31, 2011
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kairosfocus (#32)
It is clear that you identify with the party of “science,” i.e. scientism. Anything that does not toe the party line, ipso facto, is wrong, propaganda, foolishness.
I'm not sure where you studied mind reading, nor how much tuition you paid for that class. But I do suggest that you demand a refund.
Have you done any serious hard or software designs in your work?
Yes, I have.
What characteristics do you notice about designed things?
The most obvious difference is that they are very different from evolved things.
I am sorry, but science should be understood as an unfettered (but ethically and morally responsible) progressive pursuit of the truth about our cosmos based on observation, experimental testing, measurement where appropriate, explanatory modelling, theorising and analysis, and serious but mutually respectful discussion among the informed. Its main explanatory results will always be provisional, but must at minimum be empirically testable and reliable.
That is not how I understand science. I see it as far more of a pragmatic enterprise, one that is directed more toward understanding than could be expected of a search for truth. "Search for truth" is a better characterization of journalism than it is of science.
You tell me what in that and in what follows ... constitutes “a lot of rhetoric, but little content.”
I am having trouble finding any testable hypotheses in what you quoted. Perhaps you can point some out.Neil Rickert
May 31, 2011
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I regard DNA as a catalyst that facilitates a series of chemical reactions.
It also probably doesn't help when people play fast and loose with terms and their accepted meanings. Me, I regard DNA as an inhibitor.Mung
May 31, 2011
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Dr Liddle: Pardon, but he issue I have raised on this topic, once someone made the objection that DESPITE WHAT MRS O'LEARY HAS POINTED OUT IN SEVERAL ud THREADS OVER THE YEARS, there was no line of intellectual descent from Darwin to Hitler, was to point out the facts, with evidence on that exact line of descent, even pausing to point out a classic warning in popular literature put out in the public decades before the horrible things happened. I am pretty sure Darwin -- a gentleman, in the end -- would have been horrified by the consequences of what he tossed off in a few paragraphs, and failed to pause and highlight an alternative to. But the issue of the implications was there, and it was taken up, including by the major eugenics movement, with which his family was closely involved for many decades. Hitler took it to the next step, and horror happened. So, we now have to build in a science and society study into science education, and take seriously the moral hazards of science. (I never ever had such a course or even seminar in my education in science, did you?) In addition, Darwin's theory is used as a major prop for evolutionary materialist scientism, which is utterly amoral, on the grounds of lacking a foundational is strong enough to support ought. That claimed connexion has to be examined critically, by those serious about where our civilisation is going, as has been pointed out since Plato. I do not say that Darwin's theory is falsified because of his unfortunate insensitivity to the implications of his theory in Descent. Instead, I raise issues as above. On the issues that have led me to accept the validity of the design inference on FSCI (with a strong root in thermodynamics and in information theory, plus experience with design of complex systems), I have come to regard darwinian evolution as a reasonable model of some types of micro evolution, but not a good model for origin of major body plans. I think the chem evo models are non starters and that the integration of a metabolising automaton with a vNSR strongly points to design of life. I freely acknowledge that this inference to design on evidence, does not at all warrant by itself any particular inference to a designer within or beyond the cosmos, as a molecular nanotech lab a few generations beyond Venter's recent proof of concept would be adequate. it is the evidence of cosmoslogical finetuning that points to a designer beyond the cosmos, who targetted a cosmos that is set up at a finetuned operating point that facilitates C-chemistry, cell based intelligent life. In turn, that makes it reasonable and plausible to infer that the designer of the cosmos probably was directly or indirectly responsible for the origin, diversification of life and the origin of man. But, I do not look to intelligent design for a "proof" of such a designer. Indeed, I think that the notion of a proof beyond doubt on this topic is so far out of what we can warrant at that worldviews level, that I think it is a selectively hyperskeptical blunder. Worldviews are simply not the subjects of deductive proofs from undeniable starting points. Instead, we are looking at inferences to best reasonable explanation on comparative difficulties. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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But my point, I guess, is that these are not arbitrary/symbolic mappings. You can’t just make one codon code for different amino acid by declaring it so in some look-up dictionary – in that sense, DNA is more like a jig, or a template than a code. The mapping arises directly from the physical chemistry. This site is by an author who has some interesting thoughts on this argument. I don't endorse him as an expert, but I do think his arguments are worth considering. Here's one reply: "The information in DNA is independent of the communication medium insofar as every strand of DNA in your body represents a complete plan for your body; even though the DNA strand itself is only a sequence of symbols made up of chemicals (A, G, C, T). We could store a CAD drawing of a hard drive on the same model of hard drive, but the medium and the message are two distinctly different things." Also from Hubert Yockey: "The genome is sometimes called a ‘blueprint’ by people who have never seen a blueprint. Blueprints, no longer used, were two-dimensional, a poor metaphor indeed, for the linear and digital sequence of nucleotides in the genome. The linear structure of DNA and mRNA is often referred to as a template. A template is two-dimensional, it is not subject to mutations, nor can it reproduce itself. This is a poor metaphor as anyone who has used a jigsaw will be aware. One must be careful not to make a play on words."nullasalus
May 31, 2011
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Mr Rickert: Pardon, your unfortunate continued dismissiveness has simply underscored an evident lack of seriousness in your earlier turnabout remarks. It is clear that you identify with the party of "science," i.e. scientism. Anything that does not toe the party line, ipso facto, is wrong, propaganda, foolishness. (And BTW, has it ever seemed to you that a lot of the puzzles on origins make a lot of sense from a design perspective? Have you done any serious hard or software designs in your work? What characteristics do you notice about designed things?) I am sorry, but science should be understood as an unfettered (but ethically and morally responsible) progressive pursuit of the truth about our cosmos based on observation, experimental testing, measurement where appropriate, explanatory modelling, theorising and analysis, and serious but mutually respectful discussion among the informed. Its main explanatory results will always be provisional, but must at minimum be empirically testable and reliable. That way we can go about serious, open minded exploration, description, explanation, prediction, testing and application. When you inject the sort of contemptuous party-spiritedness and ideologising that the original post highlights and sets out to call for correction of, it frustrates science. And, on the subject of origins, let me note where the IOSE begins:
The scientific study of our origins helps us probe the roots of our existence. This gives it great importance. So, ever since scientists began to investigate origins in the 1700s and 1800s science has been a key part of how we try to learn the truth about ourselves, how we came to be and our place in our world, “from hydrogen to humans.” This work is based on scientific methods: carefully observed evidence, reasoned analysis and informed discussion, projecting from the observed patterns of the present to try to plausibly reconstruct our roots in the deep past, i.e. beyond historical records. Origins science is therefore a highly important -- albeit sometimes controversial -- field of study and research . . . . In recent decades, some educators, public policy advocates -- and, most importantly, some scientists -- through adopting methodological naturalism, have thought and taught that science can only work properly if it is understood as a search for “natural causes.” That is, they hold that origins science theories “must” fit in with the view that undirected blindly mechanical forces of nature and chance circumstances acting on matter and energy in one form or another, triggered purposeless changes and developments across time, from hydrogen to humans. But, this embeds a crucial mistake. For, as an observed pattern in the present, we routinely encounter: (a) natural causes tracing to forces of chance and/or mechanical necessity, and (b) ART-ificial (i.e. intelligent) causes tracing to the action of purposeful agents. [[Where, we can and do routinely recognise intelligence based on our common experience of our own capabilities: "capacities to reason, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend ideas and language, and learn." ] Moreover, (c) both natural and artificial causes leave observable and distinct empirical traces that we may therefore study and distinguish using scientific methods . . . . the recognisably artificial (a) will not be credibly the product of observed blind chance and mechanical forces acting in its context, (b) will be specifically functional [[it has to do something in particular that depends on having a correct configuration. e.g. a key and a lock or letters in a word], and (c) will be sufficiently complex that the functional configuration is not credibly the result of happenstance. Thus, in a reasonable context, functionally specified highly complex organisation is a recognisable sign of intentionally directed configuration. That is, of design.
You tell me what in that and in what follows -- a survey that (having done an introductory survey that introduces key concepts and issues) starts with the worldviews context, examines cosmology starting with astrophysics in a nutshell through the lens of the HR diagram and addresses dating issues, then looks at origin of life, origin of body plan level biodiversity (with an aside on embryology), looks at origin of man, mind and morality, then culminates in the key science and society issues, and adds references and an appendix on scientific methods -- constitutes "a lot of rhetoric, but little content." Pardon me for being direct but this remark comes across as something you know or should know is false but which you say for rhetorical effect on those inclined to be dismissive. As such it is irresponsible at best and willfully deceptive at worst. Please, do better than this, next time. GEM of TKI RF/N: Dr Liddle, I would say in the context of the dismissive remark and my pointing to some specific content as a challenge, that BA's remarks were relevant, not distractive led away to strawman caricatures and incendiary dismissals. BA has been very much the gentleman all along for years, our resident rare quotes clipper and pointer to vids no-one else seems to have spotted.kairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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Hello Upright BiPed!
My response was directly related to the comment made by Neil, which I copied and pasted. Surely responding on topic to a direct comment is fair game in everyone’s book, no?
Absolutely! No problem.
The mapping of nucleic triplets to amino acids is an observable reality. Both modern biology and evolutionary theory are themselves based upon the reality that these mappings between discrete objects exist.
But my point, I guess, is that these are not arbitrary/symbolic mappings. You can't just make one codon code for different amino acid by declaring it so in some look-up dictionary - in that sense, DNA is more like a jig, or a template than a code. The mapping arises directly from the physical chemistry.
You are welcome to make your case, but I think Marshal Nirenberg would be out of luck if the facts were otherwise.
I don't see why.
Under that scenario, a shipmate using a signal lamp to say “hello” to a passing vessel is no more than a catalyst that facilitates a series of chemical reactions. The proof is in the assumption that it must be true. The fact that the symbols used to make the exchange are not observed to be a product of physical law – is simply assumed away.
Well, no, that's my point. Unless there is prior agreement as to what the signal means, the other boat crew could radically misinterpret it (as I know to my cost). That is not the case with DNA, because the reason a given codon catalyses the formation of a given amino acid lies in the chemical properties of those bases, not some arbitrary look-up table. There is no look-up table!
I don’t ask you to agree, but do you see why the conversation is potentially difficult? It’s like those Vietnam talks that used to stall over the shape of the table. It seemed trivial, but, of course, it was crucial. Until we agree where our differences lie, we don’t have much hope of resolving them. Agreed.
Cool :) Nice to meet you too :)Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
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