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Eric Harris Was Just Paying Attention

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Thank you to all of the materialists (and there were several) who rose to the challenge of my last post [Materialists: [crickets]]. We will continue the discussion we began there in this thread.

Before I continue, please allow me to clear up some confusion. Several of my interlocutors seem to believe that the purpose of my post is to refute metaphysical naturalism. (See here for instance) It is not. Please look again at the very first line of the paragraph I quoted: “Let us assume for the sake of argument that metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality.”

Please read that line again carefully. I am NOT arguing that metaphysical naturalism is false (though I believe it is; that is an argument for another day). I simply wish to explore the logical consequences of whole-heartedly embracing metaphysical naturalism. I thought this was clear, but apparently it was not, so I will repeat my argument step by step:

Step 1: What metaphysical naturalism asserts

Metaphysical naturalism asserts that nothing exists but matter, space and energy, and therefore every phenomenon is merely the product of particles in motion.

Step 2: Consequences of naturalism vis-à-vis, the “big questions”

Certain consequences with respect to God, ethics and meaning follow inexorably if metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality. Perhaps Will Provine summed these up best:

1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.

Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, February 12, 1998 (abstract)

Dawkins agrees:

The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, 133.

Step 3: Why Not Act Accordingly?

What if a person were able to act based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental understanding of the consequences outlined above? If that person had the courage not to be overwhelmed by the utter meaningless of existence, he would be transformed. He would be bold, self-confident, assertive, uninhibited, and unrestrained. He would consider empathy to be nothing but weak-kneed sentimentality. To him others would not be ends; they would be objects to be exploited for his own gratification. He would not mind being called cruel, because he would know that “cruelty” is an empty category, the product of mere sentiment. Is the lion being cruel to the gazelle? No, he is merely doing what lions naturally do to gazelles.

In my original argument I suggested this person would be a psychopath. That is not quite accurate. A psychopath, by definition, lacks empathy. Our Übermensch, however, might well have the capacity for empathy which he suppresses. It is more accurate, therefore, to say that the actions of the person who acts based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental acceptance of naturalism would be indistinguishable from the actions of a psychopath.

Step 4:

Finally, I raised the issue I would like to explore:

Why should our Übermensch refrain from hurting other people to achieve his selfish desires.

Mark Frank takes a stab at answering the question:

Do you mean “why should I?” in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Or do you mean “why should I” in the sense of “what is there in it for me?” In this case the pay-offs include:

* The intense satisfaction of having done the right thing.
* The congratulations of those that will approve of your action
* The firm example you will set for others to treat you the same way
* If done repeatedly an excellent basis for persuading others to do what you think it is right for them to do etc…

Thank you Mark. I believe your answer is about as good an answer as a naturalist can give. Let’s explore it and find out why it is wholly unsatisfactory as a logical matter.

Do you mean ‘why should I?’ in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Readers, notice the equivocation at the base of Mark’s argument. It is always “right” to do what is “right” is indeed a tautology if the word “right” is used in the same sense in both instances. But it is not. Remember, Mark is a metaphysical naturalist. The word “right” has no objective meaning for the metaphysical naturalist. It is purely subjective. For the metaphysical naturalist the good is the desirable and the desirable is that which he actually desires. In other words, Mark has no warrant to use the word “right” as if it had an objective meaning. Yet that is exactly what he does.

To see this, let us re-write Mark’s sentence using different words for the two senses of the word “right” that he uses: “of course, it is right [i.e., it conforms to a code of objective morality] to do what is right [i.e., that which I subjectively prefer].” Written this way, amplifying the inconsistent ways in which Mark uses the word “right,” exposes the fallacy.

Now let us turn to the second part of Mark’s argument. “What’s in it for me?” I want to thank Mark for unintentionally making my point for me. He says our Übermensch might refrain from hurting another person in order to achieve his selfish ends because he has engaged in a cost/benefit analysis. Mark points to certain “benefits” of refraining from hurting another person to achieve selfish ends. Presumably, the point of Mark’s argument is that “what’s in it for me” (i.e., the benefits received from not hurting the other person) outweighs the cost (failing to achieve a selfish end).

But of course Mark’s argument fails, because the benefits he suggests may not outweigh the cost. It depends on what selfish end the Übermensch wishes to achieve and how badly he wants it. Indeed, some of the so-called benefits are not really benefits at all to our Übermensch. Consider the first one: the intense satisfaction of having done the right thing. Here again Mark is employing a concept he has no right to employ. Our Übermensch understands that “the right thing” is a meaningless concept. Why should our Übermensch feel satisfaction at having conformed his behavior to a non-existent standard? That is the whole point of the exercise after all. Once we understand that there really is no such thing as “the right thing” why should we not do exactly as we please even if it hurts another person? Mark has no answer, because there is no answer.

Eric Harris was paying attention when someone taught him Nietzsche. He believed he was an Übermensch. He believed he was a lion and the other students at his school gazelles. On what grounds can a metaphysical naturalist say “Eric Harris was wrong”? Is it not true that the most a metaphysical naturalist can say is “I personally disagree with what he did and would not do it myself”?

A final note:
Many of the comments at the other thread concerned whether “objective morality” exists. I believe that it does, and those comments are very interesting. However, whether objective morality exists has no application in this thread. Again, the question I want to explore in this thread is “Why shouldn’t a metaphysical naturalist do exactly what he pleases even if it hurts another person?”

Comments
RDFish @ 18
No, neither you nor I think he would be right to kill me.
Why not? Why it would not be right?Dionisio
July 18, 2014
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#41 Andre
Please can you tell me how you know its wrong to torture puppies, please………
The way you phrase the question implies that it is an objective fact about the act of torturing puppies i.e. you are assuming your view of morality in the question. I am more likely say "I believe it is wrong to torture puppies" or simply "it is wrong to torture puppies" because I can guess the pain that the puppies will endure and I want to stop people doing it out of compassion. If I used the phrase "I know it is wrong" I would not be using in the same way as "I know puppies grow into dogs". It would just be a way of stressing my opinion. You presumably think it is an objective fact. So how do you know this to be true?Mark Frank
July 18, 2014
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Graham2 @ 12
Barry, as I asked in the last thread, could you give us your version ? What do you think enables us to act morally ?
What do YOU mean by ‘morally’?Dionisio
July 18, 2014
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Graham This is how you know...... there would be no evil without good, but we know there is evil therefore there must be good.Andre
July 18, 2014
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Barry, Mark, Could someone from the theist camp please tell us how they know something to be wrong ? All Im hearing is crickets.Graham2
July 18, 2014
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Mark Frank Please can you tell me how you know its wrong to torture puppies, please.........Andre
July 18, 2014
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Barry – thanks for your new OP. I am delighted to see you taking a logical approach and trying to really pin down the meaning of rather vague words such as “should”. Substituting more precise phrases is a good way to approach this.  You will not be surprised that I come to a very different conclusion. Your original question was:
Why should a materialist not act on that premise and always suppress his empathy to achieve whatever end he finds desirable?
you rephrased that as
Why should our Übermensch refrain from hurting other people to achieve his selfish desires.
The two are not equivalent and there are no Übermensch in the real world so I will stick to the first one which was the one I was responding to. In my initial response I identified two senses of “should”. One was “right” and the other was “what will I get out of it”. I had to do that because I didn’t know which you intended. As you wrote it I thought you would know which one you meant. But instead you have pursued both and split “right” into two possible more detailed meanings.  I am going to pursue “what will I get out of it” as I am guessing that is what you really getting at. I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong.
Now let us turn to the second part of Mark’s argument. “What’s in it for me?” I want to thank Mark for unintentionally making my point for me. He says our Übermensch might refrain from hurting another person in order to achieve his selfish ends because he has engaged in a cost/benefit analysis. Mark points to certain “benefits” of refraining from hurting another person to achieve selfish ends. Presumably, the point of Mark’s argument is that “what’s in it for me” (i.e., the benefits received from not hurting the other person) outweighs the cost (failing to achieve a selfish end).
But of course Mark’s argument fails, because the benefits he suggests may not outweigh the cost. It depends on what selfish end the Übermensch wishes to achieve and how badly he wants it. Indeed, some of the so-called benefits are not really benefits at all to our Übermensch. Consider the first one: the intense satisfaction of having done the right thing. Here again Mark is employing a concept he has no right to employ. Our Übermensch understands that “the right thing” is a meaningless concept. Why should our Übermensch feel satisfaction at having conformed his behavior to a non-existent standard? That is the whole point of the exercise after all. Once we understand that there really is no such thing as “the right thing” why should we not do exactly as we please even if it hurts another person? Mark has no answer, because there is no answer.
Here are my responses: * Materialist is not the same as Übermensch. But presumably we can get round that by substituting materialist for Übermensch throughout. * Of course,materialists are driven by conflicting motives and desires – some of which can be described as moral, some as selfish – the desire to help others may conflict with the desire to relax or party or whatever. Describing this as a cost/benefit analysis is extremely misleading. It implies that the conflicting desires can be measured on the same scale and a calculation done.  In fact it is just a question of which one tugs hardest in that context. * Why is it be a problem that materialists are subject to conflicting desires? Theists are in exactly the same situation – except they have a couple of extra drivers – fear of punishment in the after-life and a desire to do God’s will.  But theists also sometime pursuing selfish ends rather than moral ones – the selfish drivers win out over the moral ones. * Materialist do not understand that “the right thing” is a meaningless concept.   Just because an opinion is subjective that doesn’t imply it is meaningless.  Beautiful, interesting, funny, awesome are all subjective opinions, they are all based on the speaker’s assessment of the appropriate human response, but they are not meaningless. * It is perfectly reasonable to want to do something on the basis of a subjective assessment.  We might want to preserve an object on the grounds that it is beautiful or funny even though this involves a sacrifice of selfish pleasures.Mark Frank
July 18, 2014
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Andre at Jul 18 - 12:41 am - nailed it ;)humbled
July 18, 2014
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Hi Jul3s,
RDF: Of course! If someone had a different moral intuition than yours, wouldn’t you conclude that there was something wrong with them? Imagine someone reflected for awhile and came to the conclusion that it would be right to sell his daughter into prostitution so he could buy a new sports car. Since that offends my moral intuition greatly, I would conclude that there is something wrong with this person. Wouldn’t you? Jul3s: This is a road to nowhere.
Why are you afraid to answer these questions? Because you would have to concede that your morality is subjective too. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 18, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: He is wrong to torture puppies, SB: So now you are arguing on behalf of objective morality? How soon you forget your own doctrine of subjective morality.
We're not going to get anywhere if you don't pay attention to what I am saying. Once again: When a moral subjectivist declares something is wrong, they do not mean that God said it was wrong, or that it is otherwise objectively established as wrong. Rather, they mean that it contradicts their moral intuition. Please don't make me explain this again.
But you said that our moral intuition always defines what is right. Now you are saying that this person’s moral intuitions could be wrong. Which is it?
You are being obtuse. There are no contradictions in what I'm saying. You are just pretending that I appeal to objective moral standards, but I never do. I believe that my moral intuition is right, just as you believe that your moral intuition is right. There is no final arbiter of which of us is correct. You may believe that some particular god is the final arbiter, but that belief is itself subjective.
RDF: So far, you don’t seem to understand the moral subjectivist position at all. SB: Moral subjectivism is just the way you described it. Everyone defines morality for himself. It isn’t complicated.
It apparently is too complicated for you! Nobody ought to define their own morality; rather, moral intuitionism holds that one must perceive one's moral intuitions and act in accordance with them.
RDF: Let me ask you this: How does one find an objective standard for morality? SB: Embrace the following: The Golden Rule–The Silver Rule– The Law of Love (love neighbor as self)–The Sermon on the Mount–The Ten Commandments–The natural moral law in concert with the dictates of reason–Trust feelings only if they are your human conscience informed by all of the above–Practice the following: prudence, temperance, justice, courage, humility. Avoid the following: pride, lust, anger, greed, gluttony, sloth, envy.
Whoever wrote those things captured human moral intuition pretty well (though I would certainly have added rape, torture and kidnapping in there someplace). Imagine a man who reflects for awhile and decides to sell his daughter into slavery just for a laugh. What do your divine commandments tell you about that action? My moral intuition says it's a horribly immoral act. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 18, 2014
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Eric Harris got it, I spent a lot of time reading his journals and dairies and can I say he is the only atheist I know who lived and did what materialism entails in a honest manner. I wonder where this "moral intuition" comes from that our materialist friends speak of because honestly morality does not evolve from non-morality to think it does is absurd. If you think its wrong to torture puppies in a materialist world there IS something wrong with you! In a materialist world there is nothing wrong or right, good or evil in torturing those puppies because it really is just how it is and you have to accept it whether you like it or not. You see there is no free will in a materialistic backdrop so my genes made me do it and therefor I'm not even to blame if I do it. So what you really have a beef with is your own subjective moral intuition not mine.....Andre
July 17, 2014
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"I have been recognizing and answering this all along. Of course that person would consider me to be wrong! And if you judged against him (as I hope you would) then he would think you are wrong too!" This is a road to nowhere.Jul3s
July 17, 2014
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RDFish
He is wrong to torture puppies,
So now you are arguing on behalf of objective morality? How soon you forget your own doctrine of subjective morality.
and if his moral intuition actually is that this action is right then his moral intuition is wrong (i.e. he is a psychopath).
But you said that our moral intuition always defines what is right. Now you are saying that this person's moral intuitions could be wrong. Which is it?
So far, you don’t seem to understand the moral subjectivist position at all.
Moral subjectivism is just the way you described it. Everyone defines morality for himself. It isn't complicated.
Let me ask you this: How does one find an objective standard for morality?
Embrace the following: The Golden Rule--The Silver Rule-- The Law of Love (love neighbor as self)--The Sermon on the Mount--The Ten Commandments--The natural moral law in concert with the dictates of reason--Trust feelings only if they are your human conscience informed by all of the above--Practice the following: prudence, temperance, justice, courage, humility. Avoid the following: pride, lust, anger, greed, gluttony, sloth, envy.StephenB
July 17, 2014
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Hi Jul3s,
So people with different moral intuition to yours have something wrong with them.
Of course! If someone had a different moral intuition than yours, wouldn't you conclude that there was something wrong with them? Imagine someone reflected for awhile and came to the conclusion that it would be right to sell his daughter into prostitution so he could buy a new sports car. Since that offends my moral intuition greatly, I would conclude that there is something wrong with this person. Wouldn't you?
But from their point of view, it is YOU who has something wrong with your moral intuition. This has been repeatedly brought up before but you seem incapable or unwilling to recognize this.
I have been recognizing and answering this all along. Of course that person would consider me to be wrong! And if you judged against him (as I hope you would) then he would think you are wrong too! How many times must I explain this? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 17, 2014
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"No, you don’t have a clue, so you pretend I said something I didn’t. Sigh." I simply reworded what you said. What I said is perfectly accurate. "Because it contradicts mine. How many times must I explain this? It really isn’t that hard." So people with different moral intuition to yours have something wrong with them. But from their point of view, it is YOU who has something wrong with your moral intuition. This has been repeatedly brought up before but you seem incapable or unwilling to recognize this.Jul3s
July 17, 2014
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Hi Jul3s,
So they should follow their moral intuition because their moral intuition is right, except for when it isn’t. I see.
No, you don't have a clue, so you pretend I said something I didn't. Sigh.
How do you know that something is wrong with their intuition?
Because it contradicts mine. How many times must I explain this? It really isn't that hard. How do you know that somebody who tortures puppies is wrong? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 17, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
SB: I[t] also means that the torturer is right to kill you for intervening if his subjective intuition prompts him to do so. RDF: No, neither you nor I think he would be right (for the torturer) to kill me. SB: So what?
So, you were mistaken.
RDF: Only the torturer would think that is true, and you and I (and almost everyone else) would think he is a psychopath. SB: So what? It is right for him.
No, you've just made the same mistake yet again. He is wrong. He is wrong to torture puppies, and if his moral intuition actually is that this action is right then his moral intuition is wrong (i.e. he is a psychopath). (If his moral intuition actually dictates that he not torture puppies, and he feels remorse after the fact, then he is not a psychopath, but rather someone who acted immorally).
Whether or not he is in the minority is irrelevant to your standard.
Yes, that is correct, as I've pointed out to others. What is relevant is whether or not actions align with your moral intuitions.
I understand all to well.
So far, you don't seem to understand the moral subjectivist position at all. Let me ask you this: How does one find an objective standard for morality? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 17, 2014
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18 RDFish
No, neither you nor I think he would be right to kill me.
Why not? Can you explain why it would not be right? Thank you.Dionisio
July 17, 2014
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12 Graham2
Barry, as I asked in the last thread, could you give us your version ? What do you think enables us to act morally ?
What do YOU mean by 'morally'?Dionisio
July 17, 2014
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RE: #26 Is that desire natural?Dionisio
July 17, 2014
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#25 Barry, It's not in my nature to do that, but now I want to. Why?Dionisio
July 17, 2014
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Barry, Can we humans do this naturally?
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,..." Matthew 5:43-44
Dionisio
July 17, 2014
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Acartia_bogart:
You could use the exact same argument for a theist.
Yes, but haven't you noticed that the theists here think they have far better reasons ordained by their deity?
All you are talking about is peer pressure.
Take another look at item 4. She might value the dignity of another person more than her own desires.
Are you suggesting that atheists/naturalists are more susceptible to peer pressure than theists?
No.
I don’t think that the evidence woe support you.
Since I wasn't suggesting that, your point is irrelevant. But please don't hesitate to provide your own answers to Barry's question.Daniel King
July 17, 2014
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"Metaphysical naturalists, just like everyone else, ought to do what their moral intuition tells them is right. If someone thinks that torturing puppies is aligned with their moral intuition, then there is something terribly wrong with their moral intuition," So they should follow their moral intuition because their moral intuition is right, except for when it isn't. I see. How do you know that something is wrong with their intuition? A person who believes that torturing puppies is right would believe that there is something wrong with you for not believing that. You are in effect saying that everyone is morally obligated to agree with you. "and we will all judge that person to be immoral on account of their faulty moral intuition." Who is this 'we'? How can you judge their moral intuition to be faulty? A different culture in a different time and in a different place would have completely different moral intuition. From somebody else's differing point of view, your moral intuition is faulty. Therefore this 'we' cannot refer to Humanity as a whole. If instead the 'we' refers to your society, then you are obligated to follow the crowd.Jul3s
July 17, 2014
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DK: "“Why shouldn’t a metaphysical naturalist do exactly what he pleases even if it hurts another person?” Because: 1. She might lose a friend. 2. She might lose a lover. 3. She might be liable to criminal or civil prosecution. 4. She might value the dignity of another person more than her own desires. 5. She might be ostracized from her family or community." You could use the exact same argument for a theist. All you are talking about is peer pressure. Are you suggesting that atheists/naturalists are more susceptible to peer pressure than theists? I don't think that the evidence woe support you.Acartia_bogart
July 17, 2014
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...too well.StephenB
July 17, 2014
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RDFish
No, neither you nor I think he would be right (for the torturer) to kill me.
So what?
Only the torturer would think that is true, and you and I (and almost everyone else) would think he is a psychopath.
So what? It is right for him. I know because you said so. A person is "right" to follow is subjective moral intuitions. Whether or not he is in the minority is irrelevant to your standard.
Do you understand now?
I understand all to well. Do you?StephenB
July 17, 2014
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Hi Barry, You've ignored more complete replies to your OP, so I'll try to make it as direct and simple as possible.
Again, the question I want to explore in this thread is “Why shouldn’t a metaphysical naturalist do exactly what he pleases even if it hurts another person?”
The answer is: Metaphysical naturalists, just like everyone else, ought to do what their moral intuition tells them is right. If someone thinks that torturing puppies is aligned with their moral intuition, then there is something terribly wrong with their moral intuition, and we will all judge that person to be immoral on account of their faulty moral intuition. We will know it is faulty because it contradicts our own moral intuition, which we hold to be correct. Is there something unclear about that? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 17, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
I also means that the torturer is right to kill you for intervening if his subjective intuition prompts him to do so.
No, neither you nor I think he would be right to kill me. Only the torturer would think that is true, and you and I (and almost everyone else) would think he is a psychopath. Do you understand now? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 17, 2014
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Querius @8, Although your comment is ridiculous, I am not ignoring it so much as seeking to abstain from OPs that are authored by the ID movement's own Eric Harris, who massacres reason and himself for sport. UD Editors: Nice Lar. Calling names beats actually having to come up with an argument. I abandoned that tactic along about the second grade.LarTanner
July 17, 2014
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