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Eric Harris Was Just Paying Attention

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Thank you to all of the materialists (and there were several) who rose to the challenge of my last post [Materialists: [crickets]]. We will continue the discussion we began there in this thread.

Before I continue, please allow me to clear up some confusion. Several of my interlocutors seem to believe that the purpose of my post is to refute metaphysical naturalism. (See here for instance) It is not. Please look again at the very first line of the paragraph I quoted: “Let us assume for the sake of argument that metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality.”

Please read that line again carefully. I am NOT arguing that metaphysical naturalism is false (though I believe it is; that is an argument for another day). I simply wish to explore the logical consequences of whole-heartedly embracing metaphysical naturalism. I thought this was clear, but apparently it was not, so I will repeat my argument step by step:

Step 1: What metaphysical naturalism asserts

Metaphysical naturalism asserts that nothing exists but matter, space and energy, and therefore every phenomenon is merely the product of particles in motion.

Step 2: Consequences of naturalism vis-à-vis, the “big questions”

Certain consequences with respect to God, ethics and meaning follow inexorably if metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality. Perhaps Will Provine summed these up best:

1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.

Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, February 12, 1998 (abstract)

Dawkins agrees:

The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, 133.

Step 3: Why Not Act Accordingly?

What if a person were able to act based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental understanding of the consequences outlined above? If that person had the courage not to be overwhelmed by the utter meaningless of existence, he would be transformed. He would be bold, self-confident, assertive, uninhibited, and unrestrained. He would consider empathy to be nothing but weak-kneed sentimentality. To him others would not be ends; they would be objects to be exploited for his own gratification. He would not mind being called cruel, because he would know that “cruelty” is an empty category, the product of mere sentiment. Is the lion being cruel to the gazelle? No, he is merely doing what lions naturally do to gazelles.

In my original argument I suggested this person would be a psychopath. That is not quite accurate. A psychopath, by definition, lacks empathy. Our Übermensch, however, might well have the capacity for empathy which he suppresses. It is more accurate, therefore, to say that the actions of the person who acts based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental acceptance of naturalism would be indistinguishable from the actions of a psychopath.

Step 4:

Finally, I raised the issue I would like to explore:

Why should our Übermensch refrain from hurting other people to achieve his selfish desires.

Mark Frank takes a stab at answering the question:

Do you mean “why should I?” in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Or do you mean “why should I” in the sense of “what is there in it for me?” In this case the pay-offs include:

* The intense satisfaction of having done the right thing.
* The congratulations of those that will approve of your action
* The firm example you will set for others to treat you the same way
* If done repeatedly an excellent basis for persuading others to do what you think it is right for them to do etc…

Thank you Mark. I believe your answer is about as good an answer as a naturalist can give. Let’s explore it and find out why it is wholly unsatisfactory as a logical matter.

Do you mean ‘why should I?’ in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Readers, notice the equivocation at the base of Mark’s argument. It is always “right” to do what is “right” is indeed a tautology if the word “right” is used in the same sense in both instances. But it is not. Remember, Mark is a metaphysical naturalist. The word “right” has no objective meaning for the metaphysical naturalist. It is purely subjective. For the metaphysical naturalist the good is the desirable and the desirable is that which he actually desires. In other words, Mark has no warrant to use the word “right” as if it had an objective meaning. Yet that is exactly what he does.

To see this, let us re-write Mark’s sentence using different words for the two senses of the word “right” that he uses: “of course, it is right [i.e., it conforms to a code of objective morality] to do what is right [i.e., that which I subjectively prefer].” Written this way, amplifying the inconsistent ways in which Mark uses the word “right,” exposes the fallacy.

Now let us turn to the second part of Mark’s argument. “What’s in it for me?” I want to thank Mark for unintentionally making my point for me. He says our Übermensch might refrain from hurting another person in order to achieve his selfish ends because he has engaged in a cost/benefit analysis. Mark points to certain “benefits” of refraining from hurting another person to achieve selfish ends. Presumably, the point of Mark’s argument is that “what’s in it for me” (i.e., the benefits received from not hurting the other person) outweighs the cost (failing to achieve a selfish end).

But of course Mark’s argument fails, because the benefits he suggests may not outweigh the cost. It depends on what selfish end the Übermensch wishes to achieve and how badly he wants it. Indeed, some of the so-called benefits are not really benefits at all to our Übermensch. Consider the first one: the intense satisfaction of having done the right thing. Here again Mark is employing a concept he has no right to employ. Our Übermensch understands that “the right thing” is a meaningless concept. Why should our Übermensch feel satisfaction at having conformed his behavior to a non-existent standard? That is the whole point of the exercise after all. Once we understand that there really is no such thing as “the right thing” why should we not do exactly as we please even if it hurts another person? Mark has no answer, because there is no answer.

Eric Harris was paying attention when someone taught him Nietzsche. He believed he was an Übermensch. He believed he was a lion and the other students at his school gazelles. On what grounds can a metaphysical naturalist say “Eric Harris was wrong”? Is it not true that the most a metaphysical naturalist can say is “I personally disagree with what he did and would not do it myself”?

A final note:
Many of the comments at the other thread concerned whether “objective morality” exists. I believe that it does, and those comments are very interesting. However, whether objective morality exists has no application in this thread. Again, the question I want to explore in this thread is “Why shouldn’t a metaphysical naturalist do exactly what he pleases even if it hurts another person?”

Comments
Graham2 @ 105
Dionisio: What do I mean by ‘moral’. The usual meaning, I think. If something is ‘wrong’, we say it is ‘morally’ wrong, or ‘unethical’ etc etc. They all mean the same thing. Adding the word ‘moral’ doesn’t really add anything.
What do you mean by "if something is 'wrong'"? How can you tell right from wrong? Is your measuring standard personal, subjective, relative? If you deem something is wrong, does it necessarily mean that everybody else must consider it to be wrong too? In the absence of absolute standards, can something you consider to be wrong be considered to be right by others?Dionisio
July 18, 2014
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Dionisio: What do I mean by 'moral'. The usual meaning, I think. If something is 'wrong', we say it is 'morally' wrong, or 'unethical' etc etc. They all mean the same thing. Adding the word 'moral' doesn't really add anything. VJTorley #72: You at least had the honesty to state the obvious: The denizens of this place believe our moral framework comes from God. Simple.Graham2
July 18, 2014
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Hi vjtorley,
That may be the reason why you follow your moral intuitions, but that’s certainly not a reason why you ought to follow them.
The reason I ought to follow my moral intuitions is because I am compelled to do so... by my moral intuitions. The reason you believe you ought to follow God's commands is because you are compelled to do so... by God's commands. There is simply no bedrock upon which to found our moral imperatives. You can postulate such a thing, but it is not objectively knowable. And so in the real world of pragmatics, it doesn't matter if you posit objective morality or not. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 18, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
Earlier, you said, …”one must act in accord with one’s abiding moral intuitions. These moral intuitions are not arbitrary, and they are not voluntary, and they are not preferences or opinions, and they are not superficial.”
Yes, that is what I said. That is very different from what you pretended that I said, which was that a person is moral if he follows his subjective intuitions.
Now you are saying that those same intuitions, upon which one must act, can be faulty.
Now??? I've said this all along of course. Nobody is perfect, StephenB - you really should know that already.
Why, then, would you say that we “must act” on intuitions that could be faulty?
Because we have no objectively knowable standard by which to decide what the moral course of action is, and our moral intuitions demand that we act according to our moral intuitions. (At least mine do - perhaps you think it's perfectly fine to act in a way that you find morally repugnant?)
Of course, all of this begs the question: How do we know if our moral intuitions are “faulty” (or, for that matter, psychopathic) if we have only our subjective and varying moral intuitions to guide us.
We cannot know, of course.
By that standard, all you can say is that your intuitions are faulty to me and my interpretations are faulty for you. Who or what is to act as abritrator for that disagreement.
There is noone and nothing, of course.
The unchanging objective moral standard must be applied in individual, changeable, and unpredictable circumstances. Thus, one needs to understand the unchanging principle well enough to apply it in changing circumstances. Otherwise, one just blows with the wind.
So you use your fallible subjective judgement to decide what to do, and those who pretend that there is some objectively knowable standard guiding them agree no more often with each other than those who honestly admit that there is no such objectively knowable standard.
I know that it is immoral for a man to sell his daughter into slavery because it violates every objective standard of morality.
Come on, StephenB - I know you're aware that this unchanging, objective, perfect code of morality that you wish for found slavery perfectly acceptable in Biblical times. No matter how you spin it, nothing has changed since then regarding human dignity and slavery, so don't even try that one.
It violates the inherent dignity of the human person *which you deny), it violates the fifth and sixth commandments (which you deny), and It violates the natural moral law 9which you also deny).
I always can tell when you feel I've undermined your beliefs - that is when you start hurling crazy insults and putting words in my mouth. Sorry to disappoint you but I am deeply committed to the inherent human dignity of people. Tell me which commandment you violate when you lie about what I believe!
All you have is the notion that my intuition is faulty for you and your intuition is faulty for me, so, in order settle the matter, you will “require me” (those are your words) to bend to your will.
And here you go, completely off the rails. You can't argue against what I say, so you make up some ridiculous strawman and start attacking that. So sad.
That is the way it always works with sujectivism. Might makes right.
And down the drain goes all your integrity and honesty... doesn't the Bible tell you to try and argue in good faith? No? What about your moral intuition? Don't you feel a bit guilty for accusing me of believing things I would never believe?
First, you say that we “must” follow our subjective intuitions in order to be moral. Then, you say that those same intuitions can be faulty, in which case they will not be moral.
Yes, that is what I said.
Nevertheless, you also insist that we have nothing but our subjective intuitions, which may be faulty, to evaluate the legitimacy of our subjective intuitions. This is a very strange doctrine.
Strange as it may be, it is the human condition. I have been utterly consistent, despite your ridiculous strawmen and attempts to conjure up inconsistencies on my part. Now, tell me why you think the unchanging moral code of the Bible was right to condone slavery. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 18, 2014
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Hi Phinehas,
You only say this because you’ve already ruled out the possibility of an all-knowing God with the power to reveal what is right such that it can be known with objective certainty.
It's not that I've ruled it out; I simply observe that people don't generally agree about gods and their rules, so all that remains a matter of subjective choice. Happily, though, eveyone agrees in the main about most moral issues.
And yet you treat your personal subjective intuitions precisely as though you know them with objective certainty.
No, I've been very clear about this, so I think you're being a bit obstinate. Read what I've said and you'll see this isn't the case. What I've said is that since there is no way to objectively verify what is the moral course of action, we are all left to our moral intuitions. Would you sell your daughter into slavery? If the Bible said it was OK (which apparently it does), would you still? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 18, 2014
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If, for instance, to take an extreme case, men were reared under precisely the same conditions as hive-bees, there can hardly be a doubt that our unmarried females would, like the worker-bees, think it a sacred duty to kill their brothers, and mothers would strive to kill their fertile daughters; and no one would think of interfering.To natural selection killing your siblings and offspring is all the same as loving them. Selection only favors what works to enhance survival and reproduction, and it does not matter if it is nice and moral, or harsh and brutal. - Darwin, Descent of Man
Joel Marks, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the U. of New Haven, who for 10 years authored the “Moral Moments” column in Philosophy Now, made the following statements in a 2010 article entitled, “An Amoral Manifesto.”
“This philosopher has been laboring under an unexamined assumption, namely that there is such a thing as right and wrong. I now believe there isn’t…The long and short of it is that I became convinced that atheism implies amorality; and since I am an atheist, I must therefore embrace amorality…I experienced my shocking epiphany that religious fundamentalists are correct; without God there is no morality. But they are incorrect, I still believe, about there being a God. Hence, I believe, there is no morality.
Marks then quite boldly and candidly addresses the implications of his newfound beliefs:
“Even though words like “sinful” and “evil” come naturally to the tongue as say a description of child molesting. They do not describe any actual properties of anything. There are no literal sins in the world because there is no literal God…nothing is literally right or wrong because there is no Morality…yet we human beings can still discover plenty of completely naturally explainable resources for motivating certain preferences. Thus enough of us are sufficiently averse to the molestation of children and would likely continue to be…( An Amoral Manifesto Part I )
Clarence Darrow (from the Scopes "monkey trial") was an early champion of the idea that criminals should not be held responsible for their crimes. His outspoken denial of personal responsibility came to the forefront when he chose to defend Nathan Leopold and Richard Loeb for their cold-blooded murder of a young boy in Chicago in the 1920s. Darrow's debunking of criminal responsibility was based squarely on his worldview of deterministic materialism and claimed that pleasure was the ultimate basis for morality: "I believe that progress is purely a question of the pleasurable units that we get out of life. The pleasure-pain theory is the only correct theory of morality, and the only way of judging life." What about rape? - There’s no need for ’morality’ - naturalism/evolution has an explanation - A Natural History of Rape: Biological Bases of Sexual Coercion
Biologist Thornhill (University of New Mexico) and anthropologist Palmer (University of Colorado) contend in this already highly controversial book that prevailing explanations of why men rape and how we can prevent them rely on wrong, dangerous and outmoded dogma. The right explanations for rape, they contend, as for all other human behavior, rely on Darwinian models of natural selection. Rapists want sex, they say. Rape, or the drive to rape, is an adaptation: some of our ancestors increased their reproductive success by mating with unwilling partners, and the brain-wiring that led them to do so got passed on to their male descendants. Women, meanwhile, have evolved adaptations against rape, and against getting pregnant if they are raped.
Dr. David Buss, an evolutionary psychologist at The University of Texas at Austin and author of “The Murderer Next Door: Why the Mind is Designed to Kill” has been quoted as stating:
Killing is fundamentally in our nature because over the eons of human evolution murder was so surprisingly beneficial in the intense game of reproductive competition,. Our minds have developed adaptations to kill, which is contrary to previous theories that murder is something outside of human nature—a pathology imposed from the distorting influences of culture, media images, poverty or child abuse. …People might mistakenly assume that the theory of adaptations for murder implies approval or acceptance of killing. It doesn’t. I would suggest instead that those who create myths of a peaceful human past, who blame killing on the contemporary ills of modern culture, and who cling to single-variable theories that have long outlived their scientific warrant tread on dangerous moral ground. The problem of murder cannot be solved by wishing away those aspects of human nature that we desire not to exist. As an evolutionary psychologist, I’ve become accustomed to critics who confuse what is with what ought to be.
Look, if life is the result of mindless mutations from what we call ’nature’ and we are merely a mutated primate animal - why not expect killing and rape? Male animals kill the offspring of their competitors and then take the female as their own. What if human intelligence had developed in another predator without any ‘conscience’? Would there be any care for the environment?- or animals going extinct? Face it, here would be no caring and it would not make any difference ultimately because there is no reason or purpose for anything. Personally, I could not live according to this philosophy…Heartlander
July 18, 2014
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Daniel King And moral beliefs are just beliefs, therefore not objective. Well, let’s just say that the act of believing is subjective and the substance of the thing believed can either be subjective (rooted in one’s perceptions or wishes) or objective (aligned with objective reality).
Is it not that case that a person experiences objective reality only through perceptions?Daniel King
July 18, 2014
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"…[T]he reason we follow our moral intuitions is obvious and pragmatic: If I chose to torture a puppy despite my abiding moral intuition that it is wrong, I would be unbearably distressed. The same is true for you, and that is why you are moral." Whence this abiding moral intuition and why does every (normal) person have it? Remembering that all people are merely collections of particles randomly and accidentally assembled by nobody for nothing. And why does this abiding moral intuition make you feel distressed instead of good? Any why should you feel anything, anyway? You are just particles with no point, no purpose, just rattling around in a pointless purposeless universe...tgpeeler
July 18, 2014
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Hi RDFish, You write:
...[T]he reason we follow our moral intuitions is obvious and pragmatic: If I chose to torture a puppy despite my abiding moral intuition that it is wrong, I would be unbearably distressed. The same is true for you, and that is why you are moral.
That may be the reason why you follow your moral intuitions, but that's certainly not a reason why you ought to follow them. And while you might feel unbearably distressed at the very thought of torturing a puppy, I doubt whether you feel the same kind of distress at the idea of taking a pill that would temporarily inhibit your capacity to empathize with other sentient beings. Disgust, perhaps, but not distress. Granted that you wouldn't take the pill, I doubt whether it's psychologically true to say that you couldn't take the pill. So, why shouldn't you take the pill?vjtorley
July 18, 2014
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RDFish
No, I do not say that. I say we ought to follow our moral intuitions, but that does not guarantee we will be moral. If our moral intuitions are faulty (that is, if we are psychopathic), then our actions will be immoral.
First, you say that we “must” follow our subjective intuitions in order to be moral.Then, you say that those same intuitions can be faulty, in which case they will not be moral. Nevertheless, you also insist that we have nothing but our subjective intuitions, which may be faulty, to evaluate the legitimacy of our subjective intuitions. This is a very strange doctrine.StephenB
July 18, 2014
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@72 Try as you might, you cannot ignore me. "The MN's vast construct comes off rather poorly." The hard bottom line is . . You should read your Aquinas Or some summarized Summa by the good Dr. Torley.Tim
July 18, 2014
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RDFish
No, I do not say that. I say we ought to follow our moral intuitions, but that does not guarantee we will be moral. If our moral intuitions are faulty (that is, if we are psychopathic), then our actions will be immoral.
Earlier, you said, ..."one must act in accord with one’s abiding moral intuitions. These moral intuitions are not arbitrary, and they are not voluntary, and they are not preferences or opinions, and they are not superficial." Now you are saying that those same intuitions, upon which one must act, can be faulty. Why, then, would you say that we "must act" on intuitions that could be faulty? Of course, all of this begs the question: How do we know if our moral intuitions are "faulty" (or, for that matter, psychopathic) if we have only our subjective and varying moral intuitions to guide us. By that standard, all you can say is that your intuitions are faulty to me and my interpretations are faulty for you. Who or what is to act as abritrator for that disagreement.
But of course even once you subjectively decide that religion X or Y or Z has the morality that is correct, the world is so much more complex than scripture that you must constantly make subjective decisions regarding which actions are moral and which are not in real world situations.
Well, no, not really. The unchanging objective moral standard must be applied in individual, changeable, and unpredictable circumstances. Thus, one needs to understand the unchanging principle well enough to apply it in changing circumstances. Otherwise, one just blows with the wind.
If someone sells his daughter into slavery, is that a moral act? I know it is immoral because it conflicts with my moral intuition. How do you know?
I don't know why you would think it is a difficult question. I know that it is immoral for a man to sell his daughter into slavery because it violates every objective standard of morality. Among many other things, It violates the inherent dignity of the human person *which you deny), it violates the fifth and sixth commandments (which you deny), and It violates the natural moral law 9which you also deny). It is this standard that determines which of the millions of subjective intuitions are right and which ones are not. Naturally, you don't have that. All you have is the notion that my intuition is faulty for you and your intuition is faulty for me, so, in order settle the matter, you will "require me" (those are your words) to bend to your will. That is the way it always works with sujectivism. Might makes right.StephenB
July 18, 2014
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RDF:
The difference doesn’t make any difference: Since neither of us knows with objective certainty what is right, postulating one god or another Who may or may not exist with moral commands He may or may not wish us to follow doesn’t help. It’s subjective all the way down, despite our yearning for objective certainty.
You only say this because you've already ruled out the possibility of an all-knowing God with the power to reveal what is right such that it can be known with objective certainty. And yet you treat your personal subjective intuitions precisely as though you know them with objective certainty. I'm merely pointing out that, for me, the path: from - an all-knowing God who has the power to reveal what is right to - those beliefs that you can't help but treat as though you know them with objective certainty This path appears much more believable and comprehensible to me than a path: from- indifferent matter and random construction to - those beliefs that you can't help but treat as though you know them with objective certainty In fact, for me, the path from (absolutely nothing to) indifferent matter and random construction to anything with any sort of meaning is mind-blowingly inscrutable.Phinehas
July 18, 2014
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DK
And moral beliefs are just beliefs, therefore not objective.
Well, let’s just say that the act of believing is subjective and the substance of the thing believed can either be subjective (rooted in one’s perceptions or wishes) or objective (aligned with objective reality).StephenB
July 18, 2014
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Daniel King And moral beliefs are just beliefs, therefore not objective. Well, let's just say that the act of believing is subjective and the substance of the thing believed can either be subjective (rooted in one's perceptions or wishes) or objective (aligned with objective reality).StephenB
July 18, 2014
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What this means is that when someone believes that one particular moral code or another is objectively true, that belief is itself subjective. There is no escaping this fact.
Agreed! But the discussion assumes there is not an objective ultimate moral principle. As to Barry's question, I'm not a materialist, so I deferred giving my answer. Is it logical to suppress ones moral feelings if there is no ultimate right and wrong? I'd say, a qualified "yes" to Barry's question, and the qualification is only if is practical. It might be too hard to rewire someone's intuition. The other reason I'd say, "yes" and agree with Barry is that his question also applies to Christians. Sometimes one has to exercise tough love to do the right thing (according to Christian doctrine anyway), and suppress natural empathy. Suppose for the sake of argument my denomination's policies (Presbyterian Church in America) are God's truth, I'd be excommunicated for returning to the Roman Catholic church. So as far as my current denomination goes, they would be commanded to expel me, and it would make them happier if they didn't feel so guilty about it. There was a case where a woman shot her husband to death. Her husband was a pastor. It turned out he was a wife and child abuser (nearly suffocated their children to death) and tired to privately dress up his wife according to the porn videos he watched. If I were a judge, I'd still have to sentence her to serve some time (I think the final outcome was manslaughter), but it's hard not to feel she was defending the lives of her kids. I'd have to suppress my empathy to follow the letter of the law... Here is a case of conflicting moral intuitions. So how much more will it be true for someone who thinks there is no ultimate right or wrong except to follow one s conscience that is supposedly only the product of molecules. If is practical, then it would seem logical to re-wire the way one's conscience works, but usually it is not practical, so the point is generally moot. I'm astonished why a simple "yes" was never offered to Barry's question.
What this means is that when someone believes that one particular moral code or another is objectively true, that belief is itself subjective. There is no escaping this fact.
Agreed! Now, if we assume there is an objective moral principle, as far as our subjectiveness aligning with the objective truth it is like a jury making their subjective decision in a court case about a claim that is objectively true or false. No guarantee one is right, but they do the best they can. When they send an innocent person to face the death penalty, the judicial system has collectively made moral mistake in the application of justice. But there is still a sense there was a right and wrong decision in the ultimate sense -- again on the assumption there is an ultimate right and wrong..... PS A total side note, Himmler did not want any of his SS troops to be atheists. He also did not approve of gratuitous torture of jews (just killing them efficiently and subjecting them to deprivation and beatings). He didn't think such torture was decent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology_of_the_SS I throw this out to show, the structure of people's conscience is sometimes ironic.scordova
July 18, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
On the one hand, you say that a person is moral if he follows his subjective intuitions.
No, I do not say that. I say we ought to follow our moral intuitions, but that does not guarantee we will be moral. If our moral intuitions are faulty (that is, if we are psychopathic), then our actions will be immoral. And from my previous post: But of course even once you subjectively decide that religion X or Y or Z has the morality that is correct, the world is so much more complex than scripture that you must constantly make subjective decisions regarding which actions are moral and which are not in real world situations. That is why you choose to dodge my question to you, which I shall repeat until you respond: If someone sells his daughter into slavery, is that a moral act? I know it is immoral because it conflicts with my moral intuition. How do you know? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 18, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
Yes, indeed, children do protest the actions of their peers (or even their parents) and say things such as, “That’s not fair.” Notice, though, that in those very words, they are appealing to a pre-existent standard of justice.
What they refer to is their own internal sense of fairness.
No one complains about mistreatment unless the rules of fair play are already in place.
The "place" where these rules are is inside of the head of people.
Notice, also, that the standard to which the child refers is objective.
WRONG. The standard is subjective, but the child wishes to apply their subjective standard universally.
The protest does not take the form, “it’s not fair to me,” which is the subjectivist standard. The message is clear. It’s not fair, period.
Yes of course: It's not fair, period - not fair for anyone. Why isn't it fair? Because it contradicts my subjective sense of fairness. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 18, 2014
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Hi Phinehas,
Because they fall short of an objective standard defined by the very nature of their Creator and His design for what He has created.
First, if that is really why you wouldn't sell your daughter into slavery or torture puppies, can you show me where this Creator has specified these prohibitions? (Be especially careful about the daughter/slavery example :-), cf. Exodus 21:7) Next, if the standard given by this Creator said it was just fine to torture puppies and sell your daughter into slavery, would you then happily comply? Next, why should I believe in what you say this Creator wants, rather than what some other person from some other religion says their Creator wants? Next, why should I care about what any Creator wants at all?
So, to contrast...
The difference doesn't make any difference: Since neither of us knows with objective certainty what is right, postulating one god or another Who may or may not exist with moral commands He may or may not wish us to follow doesn't help. It's subjective all the way down, despite our yearning for objective certainty.
It literally turns my stomach to imagine trampling on another’s freedom and compelling them to bend their own self-expression or self-actualization to something that only exists in me as a personal subjective intuition.
It is your personal, subjective moral intuition that makes this thought repugnant! You've just demonstrated my point. You are using your moral intuition to decide which moral system is right.
Is there any such thing, even conceptually, as an objective belief? Beliefs are just beliefs. Right.
Now we leave the murky waters of moral theory and wade into the bottomless abyss of epistemology. You and I are both good people, Phinehas - I'm certain of it! Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 18, 2014
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Maybe it would help to distinguish between the ontological issue: Is there a moral law? And the epistemological issue: How would I know what that is? That there is a moral law is apparent to all, or seems to be at least. Else the materialists are just sparing us the “apparently right and wrong” or the “to me” verbiage. So the first question, logically, becomes “Is there a moral law?” If there is one then it would make sense to talk of right and wrong and how we would know that things are right or wrong. If there isn’t a moral law, then it makes zero sense to speak of right and wrong in any way, shape, or form. It would be like arguing about the true color of the easter bunny’s fur in the absence of a real easter bunny. In a purely material or physical or natural (take your choice - I will use material) world there is only matter and energy. Or if you prefer, sub-atomic particles in energy fields (hereafter particles). The behavior of these particles is described, at least, if not dictated by, the laws of physics as they are currently conceived. Never mind for now that these laws are immaterial themselves. e.g. What does gravity smell like? What does it taste like? Where is this law? Can I touch this law? Well, you (should) get the point. For the sake of argument, let’s assume that the laws of physics have unified general relativity and quantum theory, found the God particle, figured out dark matter and dark energy, etc… In other words explained EVERYTHING about the particle world. And since the particle world is the only world that exists then EVERYTHING has been explained. Imagine that we exist in that world right now. Particles are all there is and physics explains them completely. For the materialist, the problem of morality (also God, consciousness, design, purpose, language, information, thought, mind, etc… in other words, every thing that makes us human or matters to humans) is intractable. For the intellectually honest materialist (aye, there's the rub) there only IS, there is no OUGHT. And anyone with half a brain or thirty spare seconds to think about it can see this. Why? The particles only “are.” What they are doing or where they are doing it or when they are doing it or how they are doing it or in what configuration they are doing it is simply a matter of physical law (and time and chance). And those are the only questions that a materialist ontology allows. To ask “why” is to invoke or acknowledge the existence of design or purpose which is denied by the materialist ontology. As Barry mentions above, even the intellectually challenged (my claim, not Barry’s) Richard Dawkins can see that this must be true. In "River Out of Eden" he says: “This sounds savagely cruel but, as we shall see, nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This is one of the hardest lessons for humans to learn. We cannot admit that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous – indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose.” Well there you have it plain as day. In a material universe of only particles this is the necessary conclusion. (Leaving aside the fact that no one really believes this for an instant, least of all Dawkins, it’s still the logical conclusion to which the ha ha ha ha ha intellectually honest materialist is forced. And how, one might ask, in a universe of particles only, did Dawkins come up with the idea of cruel, anyway?) Let’s formalize this with a syllogism. Everything that exists is a material thing. (Major Premise and fundamental intellectual “commitment," if there really is such a thing, of the materialist) The laws of physics explain all material things. (Minor Premise and true by definition) Therefore, the laws of physics explain everything that exists. (Necessary conclusion of a valid argument) The syllogism is valid. The minor premise is true, by definition. If the major premise is true then the conclusion is necessarily true. Note that it is possible for the major premise to be true but it is also possible for it to be false. Assuming the “truth” of the major premise as Barry has done for the purpose of this thread, what follows? We can think of another syllogism. No non-material things exist. (Restatement of major premise) The moral law is a non-material thing. (True by definition) Therefore the moral law does not exist. (Substitute God, mind, purpose, intention, free will, information, language, thought, laws of logic, etc… for “moral law” and the syllogism still spits out the necessary conclusion: that none of these things exist. Thus the language of Dawkins and others that design, purpose, free will, minds, etc... are only “apparent.” We are somehow deluded to think that we have them but we really do not. This much is clear. Within a materialist ontology, any sense of the phrase “moral law,” is meaningless and empty. There is no moral law in any sense of the word. So how can a materialist even avail himself of the concepts “right” and “wrong” even if they are only what he “feels” is right or wrong? The answer is that he cannot. The fact that this discussion can be carried on at all reflects a lack of rigor in thinking that is shameful on the part of the materialist. If there is no moral law then there is no right or wrong, period. And ANY AND ALL talk of it is mere nonsense. But, oddly enough, everyone on this thread has opinions about what is right and what is wrong. Whether one grounds them in one’s own subjective appraisal of things or grounds them in an objective moral law, everybody knows or has an intuition that there are such things as right and wrong and they do not reduce to “it makes me feel good” or “it gives me an advantage” or some other such nonsense. It makes me feel good to torture puppies is therefore a “moral” statement in the materialist world. AIGuy may disagree but so what? Without appeal to a higher standard or authority, that he denies exists BTW, his feeling is his feeling and mine is mine (no, I don’t torture puppies) and there is no way to adjudicate who is “right” and who is “wrong.” Remembering that in the materialist ontology those terms are meaningless in every sense of the word. Let’s make this a bit more graphic. If the materialist is correct then there is no moral ground for condemning the actions of nazi Germany in WW2. The holocaust, after all, was for the purpose of enhancing the genetic fitness of the German people and what higher purpose could there be than that? (Again, realizing that in the materialist world there is NO purpose, none, zero, zip, nada. So the reference to purpose, i.e. improvement or survival, is a reference to nothing. Why this doesn’t offend the rational sensibilities of materialists is something about which I am genuinely curious. Maybe a sociologist will do a study someday…) How then would a materialist answer this charge that Hitler did nothing wrong? I will not speak for them but I will be intensely interested in how they would try to answer that question. (Well, we all know how, don't we? But still, I'd like to see it in print in this thread.) The epistemological problem is now seen to be even more absurd. If the materialist recognizes that there is no moral law (some do and if they live out the implications of that we have a word for them - monster), and he must if he is to be intellectually honest (ah, the rub again), then how is it possible, in any universe, to argue about how we know the essence of that which does not exist? Is that not even more irrational? It’s bad enough to sign up for the fact that there is no real right and wrong, as the materialist must. It’s even worse to then engage others in a debate about what right and wrong consist of. To paraphrase Edward Feser who wrote "The Last Superstition,” discussing these issues with materialists is like trying to discuss Shakespeare with a three year old who thinks writing is something you do on a wall with crayons. That’s the real problem here.tgpeeler
July 18, 2014
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StephenB:
Yes, indeed, children do protest the actions of their peers (or even their parents) and say things such as, “That’s not fair.” Notice, though, that in those very words, they are appealing to a pre-existent standard of justice.
Of course. We’re all born into cultures that enclose us within pre-existing standards of fairness and justice, conveyed by parents, teachers, siblings, friends, proverbs, stories, movies, religious parables, etc. Through the deep social interaction I describe, across thousands of interactions, most children internalize those standards. In play children practice the application of those standards. The process continues into adulthood.
Alas, your superb prose fails to compensate for the fact that your example contradicts the principle that it was meant to illuminate.
First, it does not follow from the above that the standards of the enclosing culture are “objective” in the larger sense that so many here advocate. But no matter, it is not the intention of my post above to argue that there are no objective standards. (I’d think you’d agree that that has proved a pointless discussion). Rather, the central point of the above is that, for theist and naturalist alike, it is the deep interpenetrating social immersion I describe through which persons acquire the sophisticated theory of mind and skills for both cognitive and affective attunement that we call empathy. The notion that toggling a few switches (belief in god: OFF, belief in an afterlife, OFF, etc.) should prompt one to sweep aside a lifetime of shared deep social mind (and what Searle calls a world of “we intentionality”), itself in no way contingent upon the positions of those switches, and morph into a bold, confident, callous Nietzshean Superman indistinguishable from a psychopath is both philosophically and psychologically preposterous, in my opinion.Reciprocating Bill
July 18, 2014
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SB" According to you, the person who tortures puppies and murders you for intervening is moral if he is following his subjective intuitions. RDFish
I’ve already explained many times now why this is mistaken. Again, if I find his moral intuitions faulty, RDFishI will see him as a psychopath, and see his actions as immoral.
That statement undermines your entire argument. The contradiction persists: On the one hand, you say that a person is moral if he follows his subjective intuitions. On the other hand, you say that this same person is moral only if he follows your subjective intuitions. You are, indeed, trying to have it both ways.StephenB
July 18, 2014
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Mark Frank Are you able to answer the simple questions I asked you in posts 51 & 79 ? Are they too difficult for you? BTW, in baseball three strikes = out. But fortunately in this UD blog the admin. is very compassionate and tolerant, hence they’ll let you remain in this game, just for the fun of it, perhaps to attract more readers ;-)Dionisio
July 18, 2014
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Is there any such thing, even conceptually, as an objective belief? Beliefs are just beliefs. Right.
Right. And moral beliefs are just beliefs, therefore not objective.Daniel King
July 18, 2014
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Graham2 Are you able to answer the simple question I asked you in posts 28 & 44 ? is it too difficult for you? BTW, in baseball three strikes = out. But fortunately in this UD blog the admin. is very compassionate and tolerant, hence they’ll let you remain in this game, just for the fun of it, perhaps to attract more readers ;-)Dionisio
July 18, 2014
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RDFish, Are you able to answer the simple questions I asked you in posts 29 & 46 ? Are they too difficult for you? BTW, in baseball three strikes = out. But fortunately in this UD blog the admin. is very compassionate and tolerant, hence they'll let you remain in this game, just for the fun of it, perhaps to attract more readers ;-)Dionisio
July 18, 2014
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Mark Frank @ 45
I am more likely say “I believe it is wrong to torture puppies” or simply “it is wrong to torture puppies” because I can guess the pain that the puppies will endure and I want to stop people doing it out of compassion.
1. Do you mean that “it is wrong” is your personal, subjective opinion, which does not have to be everybody else’s opinion? 2. Does that mean that someone else could qualify as “right” what you consider to be “wrong”? 3. Do you mean that what is “right” to you could be “wrong” to someone else, and nobody can claim having the last definitive word on this? 4. Do you mean that you believe there’s no such thing as an absolute standard that can be used to tell right from wrong? 5. Do you mean that you believe that what some people consider to be ‘right’ could be considered to be ‘wrong’ by other people? 6. Do you mean that some people could believe that what they do to others is ‘right’ while others may see it as ‘wrong’? 7. Do you realize that in the absence of absolute standards, everything could be ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ at the same time, depending on different subjective opinions or beliefs? Do you understand that in the absence of absolute objective laws there’s no such thing as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ in absolute terms? Some people may deem ‘right’ to consider other people inferior and treat them in a manner that other people may consider ‘wrong’? In the absence of objective absolute standards, there’s no such thing as absolute ‘right’ or absolute ‘wrong’, hence the meaning of those words is subjectively relative, but they don’t apply to everyone the same way. In such case, those words mean absolutely nothing. In order for the terms ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ to have absolute meaning, which applies equally to all people, there must be an absolute standard. In the absence of absolute standards, a cannibal may consider right to eat another person, while probably someone else might consider it wrong. But it won’t be absolutely right or wrong. It would be relatively right and wrong at the same time. In such case, does it matter? Why?Dionisio
July 18, 2014
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RDF:
What this means is that when someone believes that one particular moral code or another is objectively true, that belief is itself subjective. There is no escaping this fact.
Is there any such thing, even conceptually, as an objective belief? Beliefs are just beliefs. Right.Phinehas
July 18, 2014
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RDF:
When you respond, don’t forget the questions in bold!
Because they fall short of an objective standard defined by the very nature of their Creator and His design for what He has created. So, to contrast: I require that other autonomous beings (having no more or less moral authority than I do) modify their behavior to the point that they are compelled to comply with my demands based solely on personally-held, admittedly fallible, and, ultimately, randomly constructed (from indifferent matter) subjective intuitions that I fully recognize they (and, perhaps, the entire universe) might not share. vs. I require that other autonomous beings (having no more or less moral authority than I do) modify their behavior to the point that they are compelled to comply with my demands based solely on my best (admittedly fallible) understanding of an objective standard established and revealed by God in keeping with His nature and design that I fully recognize others might not share. For me, if I am being honest, the second formulation is hard enough to swallow, given my aversion to compulsion and interfering in the lives of other autonomous beings, though when faced with the Hitlers and Nazis of the world, I feel the weight of obligation you referenced earlier. But the first formulation is seriously and in all ways absolutely repugnant to me. It literally turns my stomach to imagine trampling on another's freedom and compelling them to bend their own self-expression or self-actualization to something that only exists in me as a personal subjective intuition.Phinehas
July 18, 2014
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Hi vjtorley,
Morality could still be objective, even if it is difficult or impossible for us to discover, using unaided reason.
What this means is that when someone believes that one particular moral code or another is objectively true, that belief is itself subjective. There is no escaping this fact. It does not help the person who wishes to follow an objectively correct morality if there is no way to objectively find out what that moral code is. That is the situation in which we find ourselves - all of us.
I may have certain strongly held intuitions, which are in a completely different category from my tastes and preferences, but if “oughts” are not part of the “warp and woof” of reality, then there’s absolutely no reason why I ought to follow my moral intuitions.
That is simply not true; the reason we follow our moral intuitions is obvious and pragmatic: If I chose to torture a puppy despite my abding moral intuition that it is wrong, I would be unbearably distressed. The same is true for you, and that is why you are moral.
In fact, one could even argue that I ought to reject my intuitions regarding heavily controverted moral issues: given the sheer diversity of opinions available on such issues, it’s a reasonable bet that my particular opinion will turn out to be poorly grounded, when compared to some other person’s opinion(s).
What we find a general alignment of moral intuitions - I would say nobody in this discussion disagrees about rape, torture, murder, theft, or kidnapping. The things we do disagree about are not specifically addressed by any "objective" and unambiguous moral code, and so we have nothing but our moral intuitions to rely on.
From these properties, we can derive the moral norm that we should not deprive other living things of their needs – unless we have to do so, in order to meet our own needs. Gratuitous infliction of pain is therefore wrong.
We all feel this is true, but your reasoning is subjective still: Why do I care about my "duty" to living things? Why do I care about moral norms at all? There is no answer except the one that comes from within - our subjective moral intuitions.
We also need higher-level norms which tell us that we should refrain from stunting a living thing by re-engineering its nature and robbing it of the vital powers that formerly defined it as a living thing of a certain kind, and that we should refrain from re-engineering our own natures in such a way as to deliberately stunt our realization of the goods which characterize us, or stunt the desire to realize our built-in ends.
Why should we do this - because you say so? It is turtles all the way down, VJT - no matter how you try, we can always simply ask "Why should we care about this instead of that?" and there is nowhere to ground the answer in our shared experience. We have only our subjective intuitions. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 18, 2014
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