Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Eric Harris Was Just Paying Attention

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Thank you to all of the materialists (and there were several) who rose to the challenge of my last post [Materialists: [crickets]]. We will continue the discussion we began there in this thread.

Before I continue, please allow me to clear up some confusion. Several of my interlocutors seem to believe that the purpose of my post is to refute metaphysical naturalism. (See here for instance) It is not. Please look again at the very first line of the paragraph I quoted: “Let us assume for the sake of argument that metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality.”

Please read that line again carefully. I am NOT arguing that metaphysical naturalism is false (though I believe it is; that is an argument for another day). I simply wish to explore the logical consequences of whole-heartedly embracing metaphysical naturalism. I thought this was clear, but apparently it was not, so I will repeat my argument step by step:

Step 1: What metaphysical naturalism asserts

Metaphysical naturalism asserts that nothing exists but matter, space and energy, and therefore every phenomenon is merely the product of particles in motion.

Step 2: Consequences of naturalism vis-à-vis, the “big questions”

Certain consequences with respect to God, ethics and meaning follow inexorably if metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality. Perhaps Will Provine summed these up best:

1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.

Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, February 12, 1998 (abstract)

Dawkins agrees:

The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, 133.

Step 3: Why Not Act Accordingly?

What if a person were able to act based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental understanding of the consequences outlined above? If that person had the courage not to be overwhelmed by the utter meaningless of existence, he would be transformed. He would be bold, self-confident, assertive, uninhibited, and unrestrained. He would consider empathy to be nothing but weak-kneed sentimentality. To him others would not be ends; they would be objects to be exploited for his own gratification. He would not mind being called cruel, because he would know that “cruelty” is an empty category, the product of mere sentiment. Is the lion being cruel to the gazelle? No, he is merely doing what lions naturally do to gazelles.

In my original argument I suggested this person would be a psychopath. That is not quite accurate. A psychopath, by definition, lacks empathy. Our Übermensch, however, might well have the capacity for empathy which he suppresses. It is more accurate, therefore, to say that the actions of the person who acts based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental acceptance of naturalism would be indistinguishable from the actions of a psychopath.

Step 4:

Finally, I raised the issue I would like to explore:

Why should our Übermensch refrain from hurting other people to achieve his selfish desires.

Mark Frank takes a stab at answering the question:

Do you mean “why should I?” in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Or do you mean “why should I” in the sense of “what is there in it for me?” In this case the pay-offs include:

* The intense satisfaction of having done the right thing.
* The congratulations of those that will approve of your action
* The firm example you will set for others to treat you the same way
* If done repeatedly an excellent basis for persuading others to do what you think it is right for them to do etc…

Thank you Mark. I believe your answer is about as good an answer as a naturalist can give. Let’s explore it and find out why it is wholly unsatisfactory as a logical matter.

Do you mean ‘why should I?’ in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Readers, notice the equivocation at the base of Mark’s argument. It is always “right” to do what is “right” is indeed a tautology if the word “right” is used in the same sense in both instances. But it is not. Remember, Mark is a metaphysical naturalist. The word “right” has no objective meaning for the metaphysical naturalist. It is purely subjective. For the metaphysical naturalist the good is the desirable and the desirable is that which he actually desires. In other words, Mark has no warrant to use the word “right” as if it had an objective meaning. Yet that is exactly what he does.

To see this, let us re-write Mark’s sentence using different words for the two senses of the word “right” that he uses: “of course, it is right [i.e., it conforms to a code of objective morality] to do what is right [i.e., that which I subjectively prefer].” Written this way, amplifying the inconsistent ways in which Mark uses the word “right,” exposes the fallacy.

Now let us turn to the second part of Mark’s argument. “What’s in it for me?” I want to thank Mark for unintentionally making my point for me. He says our Übermensch might refrain from hurting another person in order to achieve his selfish ends because he has engaged in a cost/benefit analysis. Mark points to certain “benefits” of refraining from hurting another person to achieve selfish ends. Presumably, the point of Mark’s argument is that “what’s in it for me” (i.e., the benefits received from not hurting the other person) outweighs the cost (failing to achieve a selfish end).

But of course Mark’s argument fails, because the benefits he suggests may not outweigh the cost. It depends on what selfish end the Übermensch wishes to achieve and how badly he wants it. Indeed, some of the so-called benefits are not really benefits at all to our Übermensch. Consider the first one: the intense satisfaction of having done the right thing. Here again Mark is employing a concept he has no right to employ. Our Übermensch understands that “the right thing” is a meaningless concept. Why should our Übermensch feel satisfaction at having conformed his behavior to a non-existent standard? That is the whole point of the exercise after all. Once we understand that there really is no such thing as “the right thing” why should we not do exactly as we please even if it hurts another person? Mark has no answer, because there is no answer.

Eric Harris was paying attention when someone taught him Nietzsche. He believed he was an Übermensch. He believed he was a lion and the other students at his school gazelles. On what grounds can a metaphysical naturalist say “Eric Harris was wrong”? Is it not true that the most a metaphysical naturalist can say is “I personally disagree with what he did and would not do it myself”?

A final note:
Many of the comments at the other thread concerned whether “objective morality” exists. I believe that it does, and those comments are very interesting. However, whether objective morality exists has no application in this thread. Again, the question I want to explore in this thread is “Why shouldn’t a metaphysical naturalist do exactly what he pleases even if it hurts another person?”

Comments
I won't be as erudite as Dr. Torley, but let me try to explain via an analogy. [analogy] The materialist/naturalist is equivalent to a person who claims that the only sense (reality) that exists is sight (matter/energy). When asked if grapes taste better than pears (good v. evil), they respond that of course grapes taste better - their taste buds (moral intuition, golden rule, whatever) tell them so. Your taste buds might disagree, but that doesn't mean their taste buds are wrong for them (relativistic morality, yay!). And, of course, EVERYONE knows that broccoli (torturing puppies) tastes bad. The non-MN reasonably replies "but I thought you said that the only sense that exists is sight (matter/energy), and that no other sense is real - isn't your reference to taste buds illogical and contradictory to your prior claim that only sight exists?" To which the MN responds in some variation that you don't understand, you aren't paying attention, non-MN also have taste buds, or something completely obtuse to the inherent contradiction of "only matter/energy exists and the universe is meaningless" vs. "morality, which is clearly not matter/energy, is nonetheless real". A non-MN recognizes that other senses (such as information, spirit, conscience, etc.) exist, and so expressing a taste preference, while not any different than the process a MN uses, is not a logical contradiction for the non-MN, like it is for the MN. [/analogy] drc466drc466
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
12:11 PM
12
12
11
PM
PDT
Hi Phinehas,
So, oughts and musts are backed up by more oughts and musts?
Oughts and musts are compelled by our subjective moral intuition. There is nothing else to go on, because even the belief in some "objective" source or morality is itself subjective.
It hasn’t a shot at standing up to Arthur Leff’s Grand Sez Who? I’m not seeing anything that would save it from being just your personal opinion, no matter how strongly you assert otherwise.
Not my personal opinion, but my moral intuition, which is very different. It is the same for you, of course. You would like to think your morality is "objective", and I say, "Sez who?".
A moment’s introspection clearly reveals to me that I will never change my mind about liver. I detest liver and cannot ever imagine feeling otherwise about it. Personal subjective intuition at its finest.
I think you are not being honest with yourself. I know my tastes have changed in innumerable ways in my life - food, clothing, recreation, and so on. But I never have, and never will, think it is OK to torture puppies. Why do you think torturing puppies is immoral?
Where the rubber meets the road, morality is about what I require of others and not just a standard I set for myself.
Both of course.
I require other autonomous beings to modify their behavior based on personally-held subjective intuitions that I fully recognize they (and others) might not share to the point that they should be compelled to comply to my demands on their behavior.
I require that other people act in accord with my moral intuitions, and whether or not you acknowledge this, the same is true of you. I acknowledge that some people have intuitions that conflict with mine, and also that some people do not act in accordance with their own moral intutitions. I judge those people on that basis, and so do you.
Really? Whence the confidence that it’s an obligation that everyone shares? Whence the certainty?
I'm sorry if in my attempts to explain moral subjectivism I sounded as though moral theory is somehow solved with 100% certainty. Of course it is not, which is why moral philosophers continue to write books and vehemently disagree. This just supports my position even more, however: Without a certain, objectively true answer, we have nothing else but our abiding moral intuitions (which are not random, nor superficial, nor arbitrary, nor voluntary) upon which to base our moral judgements.
Further, it is difficult for me to imagine how one doesn’t see the glaring disconnect between such confidence and the implications of one’s materialistic beliefs unless, on some level, one has an intellectual blind spot or one willfully averts one’s intellectual gaze.
I'm not a materialist, and I'm not certain of moral theory or ontology or epistemology or many other things. So I guess this doesn't apply to me at all.
Yes, but SB also thinks it is objectively immoral, meaning it doesn’t matter what the subject believes regarding its morality.
But nobody will tell me how we can all see this objective morality. As far as I can see, the choice of which moral system to follow is itself subjective, and no moral system is comprehensive enough to tell us objectively how to act in the real world. Why do you think selling one's daughter into slavery is immoral?
You, on the other hand, seem to be saying that it is subjectively immoral,...
I say it is immoral, period.
It is as though you are claiming that morality is subjective to you...
Morality is subjective to everyone, not just me.
...while simultaneously being objective to everyone who is not you, and as SB points out, you really can’t have it both ways.
There is only one way: We each judge morality - of ourselves and others - based on our own moral intuitions.
If you believe that your morality holds for others, then it cannot be completely subjective. Your belief might be subjective, but your morality isn’t. Your morality is universal.
This is a semantic issue. What I mean by "objective morality" is one particular moral code that is evident to us but which is external to our individual selves. I say this does not exist. Universal morality is different - it is that I say my subjective moral intuition is my guide to what I and everyone else should do. When you respond, don't forget the questions in bold! Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
11:52 AM
11
11
52
AM
PDT
Awesome comment by Dr. Torley @71. I agree with much, but not all, of what he writes. Paragraph 5 is probably the most contentious.jlowder
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
11:25 AM
11
11
25
AM
PDT
Reciprocating Bill
Fortunately, the reality of human experience is different. Human beings are born into and participate in social worlds that are both cognitively and emotionally deeply interpenetrating, entering into what Andrew Whiten called “deep social mind.” Infants as young as 42 minutes imitate the facial gestures of adults – remarkable because they’ve never before seen a face and have yet to see their own. Mirror neurons encode the actions of others and the infant’s own actions identically, laying a neurobiological foundation for understanding and empathizing with others. Infants and mothers jointly attune themselves to the topography of their pre-verbal interactions, tracking “vitality affects” (per Daniel Stern) and sharing a form of joyful, mutually sustained and modulated affective attunement that in adulthood may be seen in joint activities as diverse as joint musical improvisation and good sex. In the latter months of the first year infants follow the gaze of adults to external objects, an innate skill that is quickly folded into thousands of episodes of shared joint attention that are crucial to human enculturation and language learning. Toddlers as young as 18 months understand and sympathize with the preferences of others, even when they differ from their own. Children at play enact countless simulated dramas in which fair play is argued and negotiated (can you count the number of times you heard “That’s not fair!” as a kid?). Out of all this emerges theory of mind, sensitivity to the beliefs, desires, affects and sufferings of others, skillfulness in “social chess” (the ability to negotiate and navigate social alliances and contracts), and the capacity for experiencing guilt (and being shamed) within one’s own community. These skills and capacities sculpt the human brain from birth and are among the foundations for filial love, pair bonding and community identification, altruism, and moral reasoning.
That was a well written paragraph (“the topography of their pre-verbal interactions” [nice!] Alas, your superb prose fails to compensate for the fact that your example contradicts the principle that it was meant to illuminate. Yes, indeed, children do protest the actions of their peers (or even their parents) and say things such as, “That’s not fair.” Notice, though, that in those very words, they are appealing to a pre-existent standard of justice. No one complains about mistreatment unless the rules of fair play are already in place. In that context, they certainly are not negotiating those rules or participating in a process by which they will someday be established. Notice, also, that the standard to which the child refers is objective. The protest does not take the form, “it’s not fair to me,” which is the subjectivist standard. The message is clear. It’s not fair, period.StephenB
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
11:09 AM
11
11
09
AM
PDT
Hi everyone, I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I'd just like to make a few brief comments. 1. The question of whether morality is subjective or objective is quite distinct from the secondary question of how I know that a particular theory of objective morality is actually correct. The first question is an ontological one: in the end, it boils down to the question of whether we live in a world in which "oughts" are a basic feature of reality. The second question is an epistemological one: how do we know which "oughts" define reality, and carve Nature at the joints properly? The fact that Natural Law theorists have a hard time answering the second question has no bearing on the answer to the first question. Morality could still be objective, even if it is difficult or impossible for us to discover, using unaided reason. 2. The only way to effectively counter Hume's dictum that you cannot derive an "ought" from an "is" is to make "oughts" a built-in, primitive feature of reality. In other words, there have to be at least some things out there in the world whose fundamental properties are not only descriptive, but prescriptive as well. For if we live in a world composed exclusively of "is"-properties, with no "oughts" as built-in features of Nature, then since we are part of that world, it follows that there are no "oughts" which can define the way in which we should behave towards others, or even the way in which we should think. (And please don't say: "Science works." What you're implicitly assuming is that I ought to follow a method of knowing in the future which has worked well in the past. That's begging the question.) Re morality: I may have certain strongly held intuitions, which are in a completely different category from my tastes and preferences, but if "oughts" are not part of the "warp and woof" of reality, then there's absolutely no reason why I ought to follow my moral intuitions. In fact, one could even argue that I ought to reject my intuitions regarding heavily controverted moral issues: given the sheer diversity of opinions available on such issues, it's a reasonable bet that my particular opinion will turn out to be poorly grounded, when compared to some other person's opinion(s). 3. If there are some things with prescriptive properties, then two things follow at once: (i) as rational beings who are endeavoring to understand the real world, we ought to recognize these properties if we want our internal "map of the world" to be true to reality; (ii) as moral beings who are trying to do what should be done, we ought to advert to these properties whenever we encounter them in things. In other words, the existence of prescriptive properties in other things imposes intellectual and moral norms on us as rational moral agents. 4. You might ask: "How are we to recognize these prescriptive properties, assuming for argument's sake that they exist?" I would answer: supposing that they exist, what would they look like? Answer: features of the real world which prove to be stubbornly recalcitrant to change on our part: i.e. essential or unalterable properties of things. That's enough to generate rational norms which govern our understanding of the world. What about moral norms, which govern our behavior? Since these norms relate to what is good, they can only pertain to things which can legitimately be said to have a "good of their own" - i.e. living things. Inanimate objects don't qualify as moral patients: we have no duties to rocks as such. (I'll leave to one side the question of whether we could possibly have duties towards artifacts such as robots, which have been designed to mimic some or all of the properties of living things.) The most fundamental properties of living things relate to their needs - e.g. plants need sunlight; baby mammals need milk; and so on. It is here that we find the prescriptive properties we are looking for. From these properties, we can derive the moral norm that we should not deprive other living things of their needs - unless we have to do so, in order to meet our own needs. Gratuitous infliction of pain is therefore wrong. 5. But even this is not enough to generate moral norms which are properly grounded. We also need higher-level norms which tell us that we should refrain from stunting a living thing by re-engineering its nature and robbing it of the vital powers that formerly defined it as a living thing of a certain kind, and that we should refrain from re-engineering our own natures in such a way as to deliberately stunt our realization of the goods which characterize us, or stunt the desire to realize our built-in ends. But these higher-level norms, by their very nature, cannot be embedded within the essences of things. They can only be handed to us from "on high", so to speak. That is, if we are to suppose that morality is both objective and well-grounded, then we have to posit a Great Cosmic Prescriber, Who endows things with their essential properties and with their respective built-in "goods", and Who expects His rational creatures to advert to the goods of other creatures, in their dealings with those creatures. Hence the existence of God is, in the end, required in order to make objective morality "stick" for rational moral agents, in their daily lives. 6. This Cosmic Prescriber is Himself bound by certain norms in His dealings with creatures: (i) the duty not to create beings of a certain kind with ends which are by their very nature unrealizable by any being of that kind, given the world we live in; (ii) the duty not to frustrate or intentionally thwart a being's pursuit of its good; and (iii) the duty not to break a promise made to a rational moral agent. 7. The question, "Why should we do what the Cosmic Prescriber wants?" can be answered as follows: (i) because, as a Being Who is essentially good, He cannot want anything which is bad for His creatures - i.e. those creatures of His that matter in their own right as Kantian "ends in themselves" - and can only want what is good for them; and (ii) because we have been designed in such a way that if we do what this Being wants, it will be good for us, whereas if we attempt to defy the wishes of this Being, it will be bad for us. 8. Getting back to the question, "How do we know which theory of morality is correct?", we should compare the merits of different theories by asking: (i) "Which theories give a correct account of the prescriptive properties possessed by various kinds of things?"; (ii) "Which theories give a correct account of how we, as rational moral agents, discover these prescriptive properties and what obligations they impose on us?"; (iii) "Which theories give a correct account of what kinds of things have a good of their own?"; (iv) "Which theories give a correct account of what kinds of things qualify as moral agents?"; (v) "Which theories give a correct account of what kinds of things are good for these moral agents, on a biological, psychological, intellectual, moral and spiritual level?"; and (vi) "Which theories give a correct account of the relationship between rational moral agents and their Maker, and what mutual obligations exist between them?" Those are the questions that need to be addressed, when comparing the merits of different moral theories.vjtorley
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
10:59 AM
10
10
59
AM
PDT
RDF:
For the Nth time, I see it as immoral because it contradicts my moral intuitions. I should think this is obvious to you, since (hopefully) the same is true for you: It contradicts your moral intuitions, and so you also think it is immoral.
Yes, but SB also thinks it is objectively immoral, meaning it doesn't matter what the subject believes regarding its morality. You, on the other hand, seem to be saying that it is subjectively immoral, while at the same time trying to insist that it doesn't matter what the subject believes, but only what you believe. It is as though you are claiming that morality is subjective to you while simultaneously being objective to everyone who is not you, and as SB points out, you really can't have it both ways. If you believe that your morality holds for others, then it cannot be completely subjective. Your belief might be subjective, but your morality isn't. Your morality is universal.Phinehas
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
10:34 AM
10
10
34
AM
PDT
RDF:
Nobody ought to define their own morality; rather, moral intuitionism holds that one must perceive one’s moral intuitions and act in accordance with them.
So, oughts and musts are backed up by more oughts and musts? I don't doubt that it's oughts and musts all the way down to...what? Emergence? Poof.
It’s not just authority, it is an obligation. And it’s not just me, it’s everybody
You say this with such confidence given that these assertions rest on absolutely nothing at all, besides oughts and musts and poof of course. It hasn't a shot at standing up to Arthur Leff's Grand Sez Who? I'm not seeing anything that would save it from being just your personal opinion, no matter how strongly you assert otherwise.
I would hope that a moment’s introspection would reveal to you that while you may one day prefer apple pie and the next day prefer cherry, you will never change your mind about the morality of torturing puppies for fun.
A moment's introspection clearly reveals to me that I will never change my mind about liver. I detest liver and cannot ever imagine feeling otherwise about it. Personal subjective intuition at its finest. *** Here's the thing: I could probably get behind the following: I modify my own behavior based on personally-held subjective intuitions that I fully recognize others may not share. This is what I often find moral subjectivists saying as though it got to the heart of the morality issue. But this isn't really how morality tends to shake out. Where the rubber meets the road, morality is about what I require of others and not just a standard I set for myself. So, it looks more like this. I require other autonomous beings to modify their behavior based on personally-held subjective intuitions that I fully recognize they (and others) might not share to the point that they should be compelled to comply to my demands on their behavior. But it get's worse for the subjectivist. I require other autonomous beings to modify their behavior based on personally-held and admittedly fallible subjective intuitions that I fully recognize they (and others) might not share to the point that they should be compelled to comply to my demands on their behavior. And it get's even worse (and for me, flabbergasting untenable) for the materialist. I require other autonomous beings to modify their behavior based on personally-held, admittedly fallible, and, ultimately, randomly constructed (from indifferent matter) subjective intuitions that I fully recognize they (and others) might not share to the point that they should be compelled to comply to my demands on their behavior. Really? Whence the confidence that it's an obligation that everyone shares? Whence the certainty? I think that you really have no idea where the confidence and certainty come from, but like Arthur Leff and many others, you just know it is there. Further, it is difficult for me to imagine how one doesn't see the glaring disconnect between such confidence and the implications of one's materialistic beliefs unless, on some level, one has an intellectual blind spot or one willfully averts one's intellectual gaze.Phinehas
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
10:20 AM
10
10
20
AM
PDT
Hi StephenB,
If, as you say, each person’s subjective intuition is the standard for morality, then why is it that the person whose subjective intuition prompts him to torture puppies suddenly becomes immoral?
For the Nth time, I see it as immoral because it contradicts my moral intuitions. I should think this is obvious to you, since (hopefully) the same is true for you: It contradicts your moral intuitions, and so you also think it is immoral.
According to you, the person who tortures puppies and murders you for intervening is moral if he is following his subjective intuitions.
I've already explained many times now why this is mistaken. Again, if I find his moral intuitions faulty, I will see him as a psychopath, and see his actions as immoral.
At the same time, you also say that this same person is immoral on the grounds that his morality conflicts with your subjective intuitions.
I just said that! There is no contradiction whatsoever.
The belief is subjective of course, but the morality to which that belief attaches is objective. That is why we have those two words to mark the distinction: Subjective refers to the subject; objective refers to some reality outside the subject.
Yes, and thus your internal decision to adopt one particular religious dogma/moral system over others is subjective. But of course even once you subjectively decide that religion X or Y or Z has the morality that is correct, the world is so much more complex than scripture that you must constantly make subjective decisions regarding which actions are moral and which are not in real world situations. That is why you choose to dodge my question to you, which I shall repeat until you respond: If someone sells his daughter into slavery, is that a moral act? I know it is immoral because it conflicts with my moral intuition. How do you know? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
10:17 AM
10
10
17
AM
PDT
RDFish
You are being obtuse
No. You are being evasive. If, as you say, each person's subjective intuition is the standard for morality, then why is it that the person whose subjective intuition prompts him to torture puppies suddenly becomes immoral? You have not addressed this basic flaw in your philosophy.
There are no contradictions in what I’m saying.
The contradiction is profound. According to you, the person who tortures puppies and murders you for intervening is moral if he is following his subjective intuitions. At the same time, you also say that this same person is immoral on the grounds that his morality conflicts with your subjective intuitions.
You may believe that some particular god is the final arbiter, but that belief is itself subjective.
The belief is subjective of course, but the morality to which that belief attaches is objective. That is why we have those two words to mark the distinction: Subjective refers to the subject; objective refers to some reality outside the subject.
It apparently is too complicated for you! Nobody ought to define their own morality; rather, moral intuitionism holds that one must perceive one’s moral intuitions and act in accordance with them.
Apparently, it is too complicated for you. You are defining morality as your subjective intuition. Good grief, put on your thinking hat.StephenB
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
10:00 AM
10
10
00
AM
PDT
Barry, Jlowder @ 14. Yes, the paper you cite purports to be able to derive an “ought” from an “is.” It fails to do so, because the very notion is absurd as we have known since at least Hume. I agree with everything you write, above, except for this: "the paper you cite purports to be able to derive an 'ought' from an 'is.'" In fact, Wielenberg's position is the opposite. Let's distinguish between ethical and non-ethical propositions. When philosophers talk about "you can't derive an 'ought' from an 'is,'" what they mean is that you cannot derive an ethical conclusion from only non-ethical premises. This is indeed Wielenberg's view. On page 32 he writes:
"The upshot is that while Adams’s theory does explain some substantive, metaphysically necessary ethical facts, it does so by appealing to other substantive, metaphysically necessary brute ethical facts. I think this is a perfectly reasonable approach; indeed, although I will not argue for it here, I think it is the only sensible approach to ethics. My own view is that any ethical fact that can be explained at all is explained at least in part by other ethical facts. I take it that this is the sort of thing philosophers have in mind when they talk about a “fact?/?value gap” or the impossibility of deriving an ‘ought’ from an ‘is.’
Barry also writes: The author’s argument rests on his claim that naturalist ethics are objective because certain ethical norms are “brute facts.” Wielenberg does not claim that naturalist ethics are objective because certain ethical norms are brute facts. You are attacking a straw man of your own creation. Wielenberg's actual argument, however, is much more sophisticated than that. One of his central points is that theism offers no advantage over metaphysical naturalism when it comes to explaining why there are ethical facts. He writes:
The important thing to see here, however, is that Adams's theistic approach and my non-theistic approach have the same basic structure: Some ethical claims are taken as substantive, metaphysically necessary, and brute; all other ethical claims are explained, at least in part, by these basic ethical facts. Both approaches imply that there are basic ethical facts. So it is hard to see why my approach should be considered more mysterious or queer than that of Adams. The conclusion of all of this is as follows. Let us suppose that the two options on the table are the following: (i) objective ethics has as its ultimate foundation some set of objective ethical facts, and (ii) objective ethics has as its ultimate foundation a necessarily existing perfect person. Both approaches ultimately ground objective morality on substantive, necessary brute facts. Indeed, Adams's version of option (ii) grounds objective morality on substantive, necessary brute ethical facts. There may be a good reason to prefer one of these views over the other, but, as far as I can see, such a reason is not to be found in the issues of supervenience, explanation, and conceivability that have been considered in the present section.
jlowder
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
09:46 AM
9
09
46
AM
PDT
#63 humbled
We have no clue, scientifically speaking, as to the age of the Earth (circular reasoning doesn’t count), nor do we know how long humans have been about
Many of the saner members of the ID community disagree. I wonder if any of them will be prepared to say so now.Mark Frank
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
09:43 AM
9
09
43
AM
PDT
#62 Barry - stop playing debating tricks. You must know what Bill meant.Mark Frank
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
09:40 AM
9
09
40
AM
PDT
You should perhaps focus more on the first sentence rather than the last, Barry. Has UD completely given up on science? A rebrand around its core, apologetics, might reinvigorate this website.rich
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
09:38 AM
9
09
38
AM
PDT
Reciprocating Bill, you proselytize "And, like it or not, this human sociality has a long history, specifically an evolutionary history of at least several million years duration, atop of which have accrued briefer and more varied histories of cultural invention." We have no clue, scientifically speaking, as to the age of the Earth (circular reasoning doesn't count), nor do we know how long humans have been about (joining imaginary dots and force fitting random evidences might work for you folk but not for those who want real answers). Your diatribe is based on your personal belief system, and you are entitled to this belief of course, but pretending, or attempting to mislead others, into believing any of what you have said is based on actual facts and evidence, experimentally or otherwise, is dishonest and just plain sad. It shows us to what lengths you lot will go to proselytize and Lie-for-Darwin. A+ for the effort though ;)humbled
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
09:38 AM
9
09
38
AM
PDT
Bill at 61. Thank you very much for your comment. In the last sentence you say: '"Why shouldn’t a metaphysical naturalist do exactly what he pleases even if it hurts another person?' Because it hurts other persons, Barry, and those of us who grew up in an adequate social milieu devoid of the profound deficits of the psychopath find that a good enough reason." OK. So the MN should not hurt people because hurting people hurts people. Thanks Bill.Barry Arrington
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
09:21 AM
9
09
21
AM
PDT
I’m always amused (and amazed) by the cartoonish portrayal of human experience that invariably accompanies eristic “challenges” such as this. In that cartoon, stick figures with no relationships and no histories either act upon self-interested calculations or conform themselves to objective, moral guidelines, fearful of the riding crop of eternal consequences. Those who reject God and his objective values do so because they wish to take what they want from others. To fully embrace the logic of naturalism is to become indistinguishable from that of a psychopath. (Or, it should; never mind that none of this actually occurs.) Fortunately, the reality of human experience is different. Human beings are born into and participate in social worlds that are both cognitively and emotionally deeply interpenetrating, entering into what Andrew Whiten called “deep social mind.” Infants as young as 42 minutes imitate the facial gestures of adults – remarkable because they’ve never before seen a face and have yet to see their own. Mirror neurons encode the actions of others and the infant’s own actions identically, laying a neurobiological foundation for understanding and empathizing with others. Infants and mothers jointly attune themselves to the topography of their pre-verbal interactions, tracking “vitality affects” (per Daniel Stern) and sharing a form of joyful, mutually sustained and modulated affective attunement that in adulthood may be seen in joint activities as diverse as joint musical improvisation and good sex. In the latter months of the first year infants follow the gaze of adults to external objects, an innate skill that is quickly folded into thousands of episodes of shared joint attention that are crucial to human enculturation and language learning. Toddlers as young as 18 months understand and sympathize with the preferences of others, even when they differ from their own. Children at play enact countless simulated dramas in which fair play is argued and negotiated (can you count the number of times you heard “That’s not fair!” as a kid?). Out of all this emerges theory of mind, sensitivity to the beliefs, desires, affects and sufferings of others, skillfulness in “social chess” (the ability to negotiate and navigate social alliances and contracts), and the capacity for experiencing guilt (and being shamed) within one’s own community. These skills and capacities sculpt the human brain from birth and are among the foundations for filial love, pair bonding and community identification, altruism, and moral reasoning. We all, theist and philosophical naturalist alike, emerge from and live within like social networks, and we all derive our capacity for pro-social behaviors and moral reasoning from those experiences, not from a coat of philosophical or religious paint applied after the fact. And, like it or not, this human sociality has a long history, specifically an evolutionary history of at least several million years duration, atop of which have accrued briefer and more varied histories of cultural invention. Psychopaths display grave deficiencies in the deployment of this deep sociality. A large number of studies indicate that psychopaths exhibit subtle cognitive and affective abnormalities seen in language processing, cortical maturational lags, hemispheric imbalances, frontal lobe dysfunction, abnormalities of the deployment of attention, and states of chronic under-arousal. They have an attenuated experience of anxiety and fear and are abnormally physiologically unresponsive to punishment and painful stimuli, differences observable in galvanic skin response and accelerations in heart rate in experimental settings. Lack of social controls, emotional lability, restlessness and inattentiveness, impulsiveness and irritability may be identified in a subpopulation of children as early as age three years. Robert Hare observed that children who eventually become psychopaths as adults come to the attention of teachers and counselors at a very early age and continue their antisocial careers through latency and adolescence in the face of every attempt to socialize them. Something is awry in those children and adults they become. Absence of empathy for and attunement with the experiences of others is a defining characteristic, as codified in the Psychopathy Checklist (WJMs dictionary-driven misapprehension not withstanding). “Why shouldn’t a metaphysical naturalist do exactly what he pleases even if it hurts another person?” Because it hurts other persons, Barry, and those of us who grew up in an adequate social milieu devoid of the profound deficits of the psychopath find that a good enough reason.Reciprocating Bill
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
08:48 AM
8
08
48
AM
PDT
I love to follow ecological and conservation issues and subject matter because I have an interest in that direction. The direction this back and forth burden shifting spin is going reminded me of something that came out last month in June. The subject of course was conservation biology and that field of course is loaded with many evolutionary biologist. No problem there, I like conservation etc. But the article brought out many of the points here, for which the author never explains how he arrives at his judgmental viewpoint about what he considers morality. Marc Bekoff is professor emeritus of ecology and evolutionary biology at the University of Colorado, Boulder. Marc sums up by saying, "Compassion for animals isn't incompatible with preserving biodiversity and doing the best science possible. In fact, it is a must. Mistreatment of animals often produces poor conservation outcomes and bad science. It is also immoral. Only through compassion can we advance global conservation." Now I have no problem with treating animals properly, even the Biblical Law given through Moses had rules animal treatment and mistreatment. Still, one wonders where most evolutionist do actually get their version or definition of morality, especially since most of their hangups and reasons for siding on the side of the theory of evolution are mostly gut felt personal version of what they think morality should be, which they later generally attempt to hide behind the cloak of Science. When pressed, all they can come up with is deflection, burden shifting, insults and sarcasm. When tables are turned, they then show phony hypocritical double standard outrage and accuse you of not answering or insulting them. The religiosity of Atheism & Evolutionism is entertaining at best, time wasting in dealing with at worst.DavidD
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
08:08 AM
8
08
08
AM
PDT
Andre @54, Violating my own rule on not posting to Barry-threads, I must ask if -- based on your comment -- you feel it would "not [be] a moral question" to torture any living being that doesn't know the difference between right and wrong. In other words, would you defend as not moral questions the torture of newborn infants or humans in a persistent vegetative state? grisly stuff to imagine, I realize, but this seems to be the logic of your assertion.LarTanner
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
07:53 AM
7
07
53
AM
PDT
Where do they get the notion that matter creates intuition, never mind morality! That it should even be capable of creating the humble Mind is laughable enough. I suspect RDF believes matter creates a sort of rough, default morality, to be customized by the individual via a personally-customized, default intuition, also created by matter. Who needs a steenkin' external moral code, when matter has such unlimited knowledge, power and... errr morality?Axel
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
06:50 AM
6
06
50
AM
PDT
Graham2 asks:
Could someone from the theist camp please tell us how they know something to be wrong ?
Both the atheist/naturalist and the theist know something is wrong primarily through their conscience. People of both stripes generally also include empathy and reason in the process in various ways and to various degrees.William J Murray
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
06:17 AM
6
06
17
AM
PDT
Oh. My apologies, Stephen. I see you've realised that.Axel
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
06:08 AM
6
06
08
AM
PDT
None of you have absolutely any chance of eliciting a scintilla of reason from RDF. That is immediately apparent from his response in #37 to StephenB's #34. He is in a different argument all together from the theme of this thread, with protagonists whose identity I doubt if even he knows.Axel
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
06:05 AM
6
06
05
AM
PDT
Because torturing puppies is not a moral question unless the puppies themselves know the difference between right and wrong!Andre
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
05:16 AM
5
05
16
AM
PDT
Andre  
1.) Puppies become dogs, dogs are excellent companions and security guards Remove the puppy you remove the purpose.
Of course some people eat dogs. For others they are a pest spreading disease and mess and have little purpose. It all rather depends where you live. What happened to your answer to (2) which is even more important. How do you know it is wrong to do something that is against the purpose of puppies?
But you are of course trying to trick me into making some moral argument, and here goes my argument is not a moral one that it is wrong to torture puppies, that is your argument and you have to in the absence of an unchanging standard have to explain why YOU think it is wrong….. not me…..
Why shouldn’t you give a moral argument to support a moral position? What other kind of argument are going to use!  You presumably think it is wrong to torture puppies. I have explained that for me to say it is wrong is to express about my feelings about puppies being in pain.  No standard is required anymore than you need a standard to state a book is interesting or a film funny.  You on the other hand presumably think it is wrong to torture puppies because the act fails to meet some standard. My second question simply asks how do you know that standard is a good one. What standard do you judge the standard against?
So either be honest like Eric Harris or keep dodging the issue, after all its not like you can choose to be good or bad now can you Mark? I mean you can’t know what evil is unless you have a sense of what good is….. How do you have a sense of what good is Mark?
What issue am I dodging?  I don’t understand.Mark Frank
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
05:12 AM
5
05
12
AM
PDT
Mark I find the questions idiotic to put it in a nice way but sure here goes; 1.) Puppies become dogs, dogs are excellent companions and security guards Remove the puppy you remove the purpose. But you are of course trying to trick me into making some moral argument, and here goes my argument is not a moral one that it is wrong to torture puppies, that is your argument and you have to in the absence of an unchanging standard have to explain why YOU think it is wrong..... not me..... So either be honest like Eric Harris or keep dodging the issue, after all its not like you can choose to be good or bad now can you Mark? I mean you can't know what evil is unless you have a sense of what good is..... How do you have a sense of what good is Mark?Andre
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
04:38 AM
4
04
38
AM
PDT
Mark Frank @ 45
I am more likely say “I believe it is wrong to torture puppies” or simply “it is wrong to torture puppies” because I can guess the pain that the puppies will endure and I want to stop people doing it out of compassion.
1. Do you mean that "it is wrong" is your personal, subjective opinion, which does not have to be everybody else's opinion? 2. Does that mean that someone else could qualify as "right" what you consider to be "wrong"? 3. Do you mean that what is "right" to you could be "wrong" to someone else, and nobody can claim having the last definitive word on this? 4. Do you mean that you believe there's no such thing as an absolute standard that can be used to tell right from wrong? 5. Do you mean that you believe that what some people consider to be 'right' could be considered to be 'wrong' by other people? 6. Do you mean that some people could believe that what they do to others is 'right' while others may see it as 'wrong'? 7. Do you realize that in the absence of absolute standards, everything could be 'right' and 'wrong' at the same time, depending on different subjective opinions or beliefs? Do you understand that in the absence of absolute objective laws there's no such thing as 'right' or 'wrong' in absolute terms? Some people may deem 'right' to consider other people inferior and treat them in a manner that other people may consider 'wrong'? In the absence of objective absolute standards, there's no such thing as absolute 'right' or absolute 'wrong', hence the meaning of those words is subjectively relative, but they don't apply to everyone the same way. In such case, those words mean absolutely nothing. In order for the terms 'right' or 'wrong' to have absolute meaning, which applies equally to all people, there must be an absolute standard. In the absence of absolute standards, a cannibal may consider right to eat another person, while probably someone else might consider it wrong. But it won't be absolutely right or wrong. It would be relatively right and wrong at the same time. In such case, does it matter? Why?Dionisio
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
04:31 AM
4
04
31
AM
PDT
#49 Andre Are you going to answer the questions?Mark Frank
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
04:21 AM
4
04
21
AM
PDT
Mark Frank...... Are you serious? Don't know what puppies are for and why thy7 should not be tortured? Are you just yanking some chains now? Ever lived on a farm?Andre
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
04:15 AM
4
04
15
AM
PDT
#47 Andre How do you know: * What the purpose of a puppy is * That is wrong to do things that are against the purpose of thingsMark Frank
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
04:04 AM
4
04
04
AM
PDT
Mark I know that torturing puppies is against their purpose. thus it is an objective fact that it is wrong to torture puppies, I don't even have to make a moral argument to point that out to you.....Andre
July 18, 2014
July
07
Jul
18
18
2014
03:47 AM
3
03
47
AM
PDT
1 9 10 11 12 13

Leave a Reply