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Eric Harris Was Just Paying Attention

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Thank you to all of the materialists (and there were several) who rose to the challenge of my last post [Materialists: [crickets]]. We will continue the discussion we began there in this thread.

Before I continue, please allow me to clear up some confusion. Several of my interlocutors seem to believe that the purpose of my post is to refute metaphysical naturalism. (See here for instance) It is not. Please look again at the very first line of the paragraph I quoted: “Let us assume for the sake of argument that metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality.”

Please read that line again carefully. I am NOT arguing that metaphysical naturalism is false (though I believe it is; that is an argument for another day). I simply wish to explore the logical consequences of whole-heartedly embracing metaphysical naturalism. I thought this was clear, but apparently it was not, so I will repeat my argument step by step:

Step 1: What metaphysical naturalism asserts

Metaphysical naturalism asserts that nothing exists but matter, space and energy, and therefore every phenomenon is merely the product of particles in motion.

Step 2: Consequences of naturalism vis-à-vis, the “big questions”

Certain consequences with respect to God, ethics and meaning follow inexorably if metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality. Perhaps Will Provine summed these up best:

1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.

Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, February 12, 1998 (abstract)

Dawkins agrees:

The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, 133.

Step 3: Why Not Act Accordingly?

What if a person were able to act based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental understanding of the consequences outlined above? If that person had the courage not to be overwhelmed by the utter meaningless of existence, he would be transformed. He would be bold, self-confident, assertive, uninhibited, and unrestrained. He would consider empathy to be nothing but weak-kneed sentimentality. To him others would not be ends; they would be objects to be exploited for his own gratification. He would not mind being called cruel, because he would know that “cruelty” is an empty category, the product of mere sentiment. Is the lion being cruel to the gazelle? No, he is merely doing what lions naturally do to gazelles.

In my original argument I suggested this person would be a psychopath. That is not quite accurate. A psychopath, by definition, lacks empathy. Our Übermensch, however, might well have the capacity for empathy which he suppresses. It is more accurate, therefore, to say that the actions of the person who acts based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental acceptance of naturalism would be indistinguishable from the actions of a psychopath.

Step 4:

Finally, I raised the issue I would like to explore:

Why should our Übermensch refrain from hurting other people to achieve his selfish desires.

Mark Frank takes a stab at answering the question:

Do you mean “why should I?” in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Or do you mean “why should I” in the sense of “what is there in it for me?” In this case the pay-offs include:

* The intense satisfaction of having done the right thing.
* The congratulations of those that will approve of your action
* The firm example you will set for others to treat you the same way
* If done repeatedly an excellent basis for persuading others to do what you think it is right for them to do etc…

Thank you Mark. I believe your answer is about as good an answer as a naturalist can give. Let’s explore it and find out why it is wholly unsatisfactory as a logical matter.

Do you mean ‘why should I?’ in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Readers, notice the equivocation at the base of Mark’s argument. It is always “right” to do what is “right” is indeed a tautology if the word “right” is used in the same sense in both instances. But it is not. Remember, Mark is a metaphysical naturalist. The word “right” has no objective meaning for the metaphysical naturalist. It is purely subjective. For the metaphysical naturalist the good is the desirable and the desirable is that which he actually desires. In other words, Mark has no warrant to use the word “right” as if it had an objective meaning. Yet that is exactly what he does.

To see this, let us re-write Mark’s sentence using different words for the two senses of the word “right” that he uses: “of course, it is right [i.e., it conforms to a code of objective morality] to do what is right [i.e., that which I subjectively prefer].” Written this way, amplifying the inconsistent ways in which Mark uses the word “right,” exposes the fallacy.

Now let us turn to the second part of Mark’s argument. “What’s in it for me?” I want to thank Mark for unintentionally making my point for me. He says our Übermensch might refrain from hurting another person in order to achieve his selfish ends because he has engaged in a cost/benefit analysis. Mark points to certain “benefits” of refraining from hurting another person to achieve selfish ends. Presumably, the point of Mark’s argument is that “what’s in it for me” (i.e., the benefits received from not hurting the other person) outweighs the cost (failing to achieve a selfish end).

But of course Mark’s argument fails, because the benefits he suggests may not outweigh the cost. It depends on what selfish end the Übermensch wishes to achieve and how badly he wants it. Indeed, some of the so-called benefits are not really benefits at all to our Übermensch. Consider the first one: the intense satisfaction of having done the right thing. Here again Mark is employing a concept he has no right to employ. Our Übermensch understands that “the right thing” is a meaningless concept. Why should our Übermensch feel satisfaction at having conformed his behavior to a non-existent standard? That is the whole point of the exercise after all. Once we understand that there really is no such thing as “the right thing” why should we not do exactly as we please even if it hurts another person? Mark has no answer, because there is no answer.

Eric Harris was paying attention when someone taught him Nietzsche. He believed he was an Übermensch. He believed he was a lion and the other students at his school gazelles. On what grounds can a metaphysical naturalist say “Eric Harris was wrong”? Is it not true that the most a metaphysical naturalist can say is “I personally disagree with what he did and would not do it myself”?

A final note:
Many of the comments at the other thread concerned whether “objective morality” exists. I believe that it does, and those comments are very interesting. However, whether objective morality exists has no application in this thread. Again, the question I want to explore in this thread is “Why shouldn’t a metaphysical naturalist do exactly what he pleases even if it hurts another person?”

Comments
Thanks KF -- and also for the reference in #262. That excerpt is relevant to the discussion here. "...the general principles of the natural law are the same for all not only as to rectitude but as to knowledge-that is, that they are not only right for all, but also known to all".Silver Asiatic
July 25, 2014
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V_s: A good question. S-A: A good set of points in answer. ________________________ As noted previously, our prime purpose will be locked into our core nature, and will manifest itself in almost every aspect of our lives. Think about an intelligent, creative, artistic species that is social, morally governed, and has curiosity hard wired in; in a world that is per fine tuning, set up for discovery and exploration as well as exploiting creative opportunities, and points to its own design. What could all of that be telling us? KFkairosfocus
July 25, 2014
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1) How do you determine what the purpose of a human being is?
By observing human nature and asking “why” about aspects of it. We seek the truth. There are universal characteristics of human life and a hierarchy of values (e.g. “the highest achievements of human nature”). We could also start with the negative argument: “Is it possible that human beings have no purpose?” Everything in human life argues against this. So, we must have a purpose. Then through observation and logical analysis we determine what it is.
(a ) Who or what has the purpose? A purpose implies someone or something that has the purpose. Who has a purpose for a human being? The human being, God, society?
There’s only one possible answer here. The human being cannot create its own purpose because it didn’t create itself. It received life. Society cannot create a purpose because it was created by human beings. Evolution or natural laws cannot create purpose because they cannot possess an intent or reason.
(c ) A possible response from you might be that you are talking about the purpose for which the object was designed.
That’s right.
In that case I ask How do you know what human beings were designed to do? (Bearing in mind some objects turn out to be ineffective for the purposes for which they are designed but very effective for other purposes – think SMS).
Look at certain universals. Look at what we recognize as the highest values – what it means to have “lived a good life”. Men and women are praised in every culture for having lived by doing good for humanity and/or God. “Fulfilling human potential”.
2) Why ought a human being fulfil its purpose?
It’s the difference between good and evil. Virtue and sin. Love and hate. Praise and condemnation. Reward and punishment.
Even it is possible to determine a purpose for a human being why is it morally right for a human being to fulfil that purpose? .
If a human being received life – life is a gift. Through simple justice and fairness, the gift ought to be responded to appropriately and not violated.
(a ) Most people do not think it is morally right to fulfil a purpose unless they think the purpose itself is morally right. One of the purposes of guns is to kill people. That doesn’t mean there is a moral imperative to use guns to kill people. Why is the fulfilling the purpose of a person an exception?
Interesting question. You might frame it a different way: “How do we know that human beings were created for a good purpose and not an evil one?” Yes, because if humans were created for an evil purpose, then it would be immoral to fulfill that purpose. But the simple fact that the act of creation (bringing something into being) is necessarily a good action, then humans could not have been created for an evil purpose.
(b ) How do you refute the person who says –”Yes I understand my purpose is X but I don’t think I ought to do X.”
“Ought” means “have a responsiblity to do it”. The only way we can conclude “I ought to do X” is that X aligns with our nature and purpose. “I understand my purpose: to become a better person, achieve more good, make best use of my talents, be a benefit to humanity and the world, but … I ought to damage myself?” That it easily refuted because it’s illogical.Silver Asiatic
July 25, 2014
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1) How do you determine what the purpose of a human being is?
By observing human nature and "why" about aspects of it. We seek the truth. There are universal characteristics of human life and a hierarchy of values (e.g. "the highest achievements of human nature"). We could also start with the negative argument: "Is it possible that human beings have no purpose?" Everything in human life argues against this. So, we must have a purpose. Then through observation and logical analysis we determine what it is.
(a ) Who or what has the purpose? A purpose implies someone or something that has the purpose. Who has a purpose for a human being? The human being, God, society?
There's only one possible answer here. The human being cannot create its own purpose because it didn't create itself. It received life. Society cannot create a purpose because it was created by human beings. Evolution or natural laws cannot create purpose because they cannot possess an intent or reason.
(c ) A possible response from you might be that you are talking about the purpose for which the object was designed.
That's right.
In that case I ask How do you know what human beings were designed to do? (Bearing in mind some objects turn out to be ineffective for the purposes for which they are designed but very effective for other purposes – think SMS).
Look at certain universals. Look at what we recognize as the highest values - what it means to have "lived a good life". Men and women are praised in every culture for having lived by doing good for humanity and/or God. "Fulfilling human potential".
2) Why ought a human being fulfil its purpose?
It's the difference between good and evil. Virtue and sin. Love and hate. Praise and condemnation. Reward and punishment.
Even it is possible to determine a purpose for a human being why is it morally right for a human being to fulfil that purpose? .
If a human being received life - life is a gift. Through simple justice and fairness, the gift ought to be responded to appropriately and not violated.
(a ) Most people do not think it is morally right to fulfil a purpose unless they think the purpose itself is morally right. One of the purposes of guns is to kill people. That doesn’t mean there is a moral imperative to use guns to kill people. Why is the fulfilling the purpose of a person an exception? Interesting question. You might frame it a different way. "How do we know that human beings were created for a good purpose and not an evil one?" Yes, because if humans were created for an evil purpose, then it would be immoral to fulfill that purpose. But the simple fact that the act of creation (bringing something into being) is necessarily a good action, then humans could not have been created for an evil purpose.
(b ) How do you refute the person who says –”Yes I understand my purpose is X but I don’t think I ought to do X.”
"Ought" means "have a responsiblity to do it". The only way we can conclude "I ought to do X" is that X aligns with our nature and purpose. "I understand my purpose: to become a better person, achieve more good, make best use of my talents, be a benefit to humanity and the world, but ... I ought to damage myself?" That it easily refuted because it's illogical.
Silver Asiatic
July 25, 2014
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kf, MF: I note that our prime purpose will be locked into our nature and worth, that gives us rights starting with life, liberty and the pursuit of fulfillment of purpose [what "happiness" means], Sorry to interrupt but that is an interesting idea.What is an example of a prime purpose? I ask because I have been convinced that objective morality is a more coherent system. The rub is since there are competing objective moralities ,what moral system decides which objective morality is adopted? as well as of course things like right to respect of innocent reputation which inter alia means that when you play rhetorical games that willfully distort and smear, you are in violation of rights and purpose. KF Perhaps taking this as an example, how does your purpose bestow such a specific right?velikovskys
July 25, 2014
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MF: I note that our prime purpose will be locked into our nature and worth, that gives us rights starting with life, liberty and the pursuit of fulfillment of purpose [what "happiness" means], as well as of course things like right to respect of innocent reputation which inter alia means that when you play rhetorical games that willfully distort and smear, you are in violation of rights and purpose. KFkairosfocus
July 25, 2014
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Stephenb There is one part of your comment that is worth a response. (Actually I would be more interested in VJ’s response to this if he is watching.)
I made it clear that morality is grounded in purpose. That is about as solid as a justification can get. Since you don’t accept purpose, you have no personal justification. That doesn’t give you a license for making the false statement that morality cannot be justified.
I don’t believe that justification works.  But maybe I don’t understand your case well enough.  So I have some questions. 1) How do you determine what the purpose of a human being is? (a ) Who or what has the purpose? A purpose implies someone or something that has the purpose.  Who has a purpose for a human being?  The human being, God, society? (b ) Things can have any number of purposes from zero to very large numbers. Which one do you have in mind for human beings?  In my youth there was a vogue for testing people’s creativity by asking them to think of as many purposes as possible for a light bulb or a hammer or some object. Once you got the idea it was possible to produce very long lists indeed.  People can also satisfy  multiple purposes. To live a long time. To propagate the family line. To provide cannon fodder for a ruler’s wars. etc. (c ) A possible response from you might be that you are talking about the purpose for which the object was designed.   In that case I ask How do you know what human beings were designed to do? (Bearing in mind some objects turn out to be ineffective for the purposes for which they are designed but very effective for other purposes – think SMS). 2) Why ought a human being fulfil its purpose? Even it is possible to determine a purpose for a human being why is it morally right for a human being to fulfil that purpose? .  (a ) Most people do not think it is morally right to fulfil a purpose unless they think the purpose itself is morally right. One of the purposes of guns is to kill people. That doesn’t mean there is a moral imperative to use guns to kill people.  Why is the fulfilling the purpose of a person an exception? (b ) How do you refute the person who says –”Yes I understand my purpose is X but I don’t think I ought to do X.”Mark Frank
July 25, 2014
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Mung: The IVP intro to phil series is wonderful. I read the books when they came out in the 80's with delight, at about the same time as I was digesting Lewis and Schaeffer as well as Trueblood. Not only is Wood on Epistemology excellent, but the earlier epistemology series member by I think it was Wolf, is also good too, from a different perspective . . . I have both. Here is a clip from Wood that I think is very relevant to what has been going on in and around UD for some time now:
Intellectual virtues . . . include character traits such as wisdom, prudence, foresight, understanding, discernment, truthfulness and studiousness, among others. Here too are to be found their opposite vices: folly, obtuseness, gullibility, dishonesty, willful naiveté and vicious curiosity[4], to name a few. Certain excellences and deficiencies, then, shape our intellectual as well as our moral lives. An epistemology that takes the virtues seriously claims that our ability to lay hold of the truth about important matters turns on more than our IQ or the caliber of school we attend; it also depends on whether we have fostered within ourselves virtuous habits of mind. Our careers as cognitive agents, as persons concerned to lay hold of the truth and pursue other important intellectual goals, will in large measure succeed or fail as we cultivate our intellectual virtues . . . . Careful oversight of our intellectual lives is imperative if we are to think well, and thinking well is an indispensable ingredient in living well . . . only by superintending our cognitive life (the way, for example, we form, defend, maintain, revise, abandon and act on our beliefs about important matters) can we become excellent as thinkers and, ultimately, excellent as persons. If we fail to oversee our intellectual life and cultivate virtue, the likely consequences will be a maimed and stunted mind that thwarts our prospects for living a flourishing life. [Epistemology: Becoming Intellectually Virtuous, (Leicester, UK: Apollos/IVP, 1998), pp. 16 – 17.]
Ironically, ethics and epistemology cannot be separated, they are inextricably intertwined and entangled, conjoined twins with a common heart. KFkairosfocus
July 25, 2014
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PPPS: For further clarity, the concept that we are made in the image of God implies a quasi-infinite worth to the individual human being. Hence, Jesus' famous remark:
Matt 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life[g] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. [ESV]
(And BTW, hence also the utter folly in despising lessons of history that were so often bought at the hard, hard price of blood and tears.)kairosfocus
July 25, 2014
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PPS: Equally for clarity, I endorse Mung at 292, in reply to A_b.kairosfocus
July 25, 2014
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PS: Just for clarity, I endorse SB's response at 302, which is complementary to mine at 303.kairosfocus
July 25, 2014
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F/N: Onlookers, there are some grave personal accusations and nasty well-poisoning cheap shots that were brought up over the past day or two, which I answered above. Let us note carefully if there is an appropriate response from my accusers, or instead merely a tip-toe away that speaks volumes through its pretence that the matter has not been answered. KFkairosfocus
July 25, 2014
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MF, 301:
An ultimate justification [of morality] would be a set of facts from which it logically follows what people ought to do. No one can do that because you cannot derive an ought from an is.
Thank you for drawing out a root issue. I respond: 1 --> What you assert here is first a demand for "facts," which normally denotes things evident to the ordinary senses and which are therefore generally acknowledged as known. (This of course opens a selective hyperskepticism escape hatch.) 2 --> However, the grounding of morality is a worldview foundational exercise so to seek its roots in "facts" is a category error. 3 --> The pivotal issues are instead: (a) are we bound by OUGHT, and (b) what world-foundational IS would be sufficient to reasonably ground OUGHT. 4 --> There are some reasonable cases of self-evident moral truths that indicate that we are governed by ought and really do objectively have duties. In this thread, I have given by a case of notorious violation, the example of murder of a child. 5 --> Where, such a child has no strength, intellectual capacity or eloquence to respond to the real alternative to a foundational IS that grounds OUGHT: might and manipulation make 'right' and 'truth.' (Which is instantly recognisable as the amoral credo of the nihilist, and a challenge on the table since Plato in The Laws, Bk X, c. 360 BC.) 6 --> Also, SB's point applies, that the credible existence of OUGHT as a real binding constraint on our behaviour points to a purpose in our existence, nature and value which is perverted, frustrated or undermined by what OUGHT not to be done. In that sense, what ought not to be done is a violation of our worth, dignity and nature. 7 --> There credibly is a binding force of ought, and this is inadvertently testified to by the attempts of even those who seek to undermine this, to justify their claims. 8 --> The issue is, what is a serious candidate. 9 --> But, along the way, there is an error in what you have said: the assertion that one cannot derive an ought from an is, implies that there is no IS that is inherently moral and foundational to reality. 10 --> That is, it begs big questions. 11 --> By contrast, consider the historic candidate to be such an IS that grounds OUGHT, the inherently good Creator God, the root of being, a necessary and maximally great being. 12 --> On such an IS, ought would be inherent to the root of being and so would pervade the cosmos, including that our existence would be the result of purpose and so would embrace purpose. 13 --> As such, evil would be a perversion or frustration of that which is in itself good and valuable as the product of the inherently Good. Euthryphro's dilemma, so-called fails. And also, evil would have no independent existence, it would be the twisting of something rather than a thing in itself. 14 --> Also, as OUGHT would be intrinsic to the IS of such a Root of being, we would meet the criterion that would lead to there being an inherent bridge of IS and OUGHT right at the foundation of reality. Hume's "surprize" is answered . . . in fact, per for instance what Canon Richard Hooker pointed out c. 1594 in context, had been answered long before he made it. 15 --> In a nutshell, our understanding of our own worth and dignity that demands that our rights be respected, imposes on us the mutual recognition that otheres have rights that OUGHT to be respected, starting with life. 15 --> Arthur Holmes put the matter well:
However we may define the good, however well we may calculate consequences, to whatever extent we may or may not desire certain consequences, none of this of itself implies any obligation of command. That something is or will be does not imply that we ought to seek it. We can never derive an “ought” from a premised “is” unless the ought is somehow already contained in the premise . . . . R. M. Hare . . . raises the same point. Most theories, he argues, simply fail to account for the ought that commands us: subjectivism reduces imperatives to statements about subjective states, egoism and utilitarianism reduce them to statements about consequences, emotivism simply rejects them because they are not empirically verifiable, and determinism reduces them to causes rather than commands . . . . Elizabeth Anscombe’s point is well made. We have a problem introducing the ought into ethics unless, as she argues, we are morally obligated by law – not a socially imposed law, ultimately, but divine law . . . . This is precisely the problem with modern ethical theory in the West . . . it has lost the binding force of divine commandments . . . . If we admit that we all equally have the right to be treated as persons, then it follows that we have the duty to respect one another accordingly. Rights bring correlative duties: my rights . . . imply that you ought to respect these rights. [Ethics: Approaching Moral Decisions (Downers Grove, IL: 1984), pp. 70 – 72; p. 81.]
16 --> But, we hear, why should we consider that people have rights at all? The only enduring answer to this has been aptly summarised in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed . . .” 17 --> In short, the is-ought gap of ethics points to the question that rights and correlative duties arise from our being equally valuable as creatures of God. 18 --> So, we have in hand a set of widely acknowledged moral "facts." Starting with the right to life and the correlative duty to respect life, thence the designation of murder as an evil in violation of that right, and an ultimate perversion and frustration of purpose, reflecting a wanton disregard for the inherent worth and dignity of the human being. OUGHT is credibly real. 19 --> Such can only be properly answered to by there being a world-foundational IS capable of bearing that awesome weight. An IS that is inherently MORAL and capable of infusing OUGHT into the cosmos. 20 --> After centuries of debates, there is one serious candidate, the inherently good Creator God, the root of reality and a necessary and maximally great being. 21 --> If you doubt or would dismiss this, simply provide a serious alternative candidate world-foundational IS that grounds OUGHT and is not subject to the absurdity that might and/or manipulation make 'right' and 'truth.' (And yes, I am using the strategy of comparative difficulties in worldview level argument, on factual adequacy, logical/ dynamical coherence and explanatory power.) KFkairosfocus
July 25, 2014
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Mark
It is patently obvious to me you don’t yet understand my position and this is making debate very tedious. I am going to recap the fundamentals of my subjectivist view of metaethics and, depending on your response, probably leave it at that.
On the contrary, I do understand your position. That is why I can rephrase it in rational language in a way that exposes its errors.
The key observation is that whatever moral principles we adopt there can never be an ultimate justification for those principles. This is goes right back to Hume. You cannot derive an ought from an is.
You are substituting cliche's for thought. That comment is one of the most misused quotes in the history of philosophy. You cannot derive an ought from a fact or a set of circumstances (is), but you can certainly derive an ought from the nature of reality (another kind of is). I am describing the second. It should be obvious that what we ought to do depends solely on how the world really is. If the world is purposeless, then there is no ought; if the world has a purpose, then we ought to align ourselves with it. Again, If there is a heaven and hell, then we ought to seek the former and avoid the latter. On the other hand, if there is no heaven and hell, then we ought to not worry about it. This is as obvious as a thing can be. Metaphysics always takes logical precedence over ethics. You really ought to burn those books you have been reading. They do not serve you well.
*This is perfectly compatible with supplying reasons for your moral principles. They just can never be ultimate justifications. (When I write this you just accuse me of trying to have my cake and eat it. You don’t address whether it is true or not.)
I made it clear that morality is grounded in purpose. That is about as solid as a justification can get. Since you don't accept purpose, you have no personal justification. That doesn't give you a license for making the false statement that morality cannot be justified.
The meaning of moral language such as good, bad, ought, right and wrong is best described by describing its role in the human activity of being moral.
I provided both the definitions of right, wrong, good, and bad (with a dictionary, no less) and explained their role in human activity as a function of human nature and purpose. I also explained how they all tie in to praise and blame.
It is circular to describe it in terms of other moral language or to reiterate that it means what it means.
What are you talking about? I provided the dictionary definition of the words I was using. I don't accept the subjectivist's novel definitions, which are calculated to obfuscate. I accept dictionary definitions, which are designed to clarify.
These activities include praising, blaming, condoning, condemning etc. It is only by recognising this that you can account for the prescriptive element of morality.
You have it backwards. Praise and blame does not define right and wrong. It's the other way around. Right defines what is worthy of praise and wrong defines what is worthy of blame. Subjectivism gets everything backwards.StephenB
July 25, 2014
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VB
What would be needed in order to provide an ultimate justifiation for morality? You say no one can provide it why is that?
An ultimate justification would be a set of facts from which it logically follows what people ought to do. No one can do that because you cannot derive an ought from an is. To put it more formally: for any given set of facts X that are given as a reason why someone ought to do an action Y it is always logically possible for an objector to say - I agree that X is true but it doesn't follow I ought to do Y.Mark Frank
July 25, 2014
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Stephenb It is patently obvious to me you don’t yet understand my position and this is making debate very tedious. I am going to recap the fundamentals of my subjectivist view of metaethics and, depending on your response, probably leave it at that. * Subjectivism is a metaethical theory about the nature of morality. It is not a set of moral principles.  It is descriptive not prescriptive and it is compatible with almost any set of moral principles including following the natural moral law. It is very common in ethics to confuse the two.  Utilitarianism does so for example. Is it a (faulty) description or a (reasonably sensible in most circumstances) prescription? * The key observation is that whatever moral principles we adopt there can never be an ultimate justification for those principles.  This is goes right back to Hume.  You cannot derive an ought from an is. *This is perfectly compatible with supplying reasons for your moral principles.  They just can never be ultimate justifications.  (When I write this you just accuse me of trying to have my cake and eat it.  You don’t address whether it is true or not.) * The meaning of moral language such as good, bad, ought, right and wrong is best described by describing its role in the human activity of being moral.   It is circular to describe it in terms of other moral language or to reiterate that it means what it means.These activities include praising, blaming, condoning, condemning etc. It is only by recognising this that you can account for the prescriptive element of morality. If you want to define moral words a different way then that is your privilege but you need to recognise that, if you do, they no longer play these prescriptive roles.  There is no longer any reason for doing good or avoiding bad.Mark Frank
July 24, 2014
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..breadth and range [of ideas in]...StephenB
July 24, 2014
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Mung, I am impressed by the breadth and range of the books that you read. It is unusual to find someone with both feet planted securely in the philosophical and scientific disciplines.StephenB
July 24, 2014
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Aristotle was surely right to insist that the passions as well as the calculative intellect be properly trained. - Epistemology: Becoming Intellectually Virtuous, p. 182
Aristotle knew that properly trained affections are crucial ingredients in our becoming fully actualized moral agents and, for that matter, fully human simpliciter. - Epistemology: Becoming Intellectually Virtuous, p. 182
The constant attempt of the Evo-Mat is to make us less than human. The result, of course, is that we become less than moral agents.
Consider an illustration of Gilbert Harman: if "you round a corner and see a group of hoodlums pour gasoline on a cat and ignite it, you do not need to conclude that what they are doing is wrong; you do not need to figure anything out; you can see that it is wrong.
Mung
July 24, 2014
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Acartia_bogart "Much of what we call “moral behaviour” is nothing more than the behaviour necessary to live in a social environment." I don't think you can arrive to moral behaviors by reasoning. Some basic knowledge seems to be part of our psyche. Here is video of Dawkins embarrassing himself when he tries to reason about morality of eating humans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGhUDByWdPQ#t=4293 If you have a strong stomach you can rewind video few minutes for more embarrassment. Is Dawkins the best atheists/materialists have?Eugen
July 24, 2014
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DK, with all due respect, as at now, it very much looks to me that you have found it convenient to lead a red herring away from the issue on the table from BA's OP on, grounding of morality in an IS capable of adequately supporting OUGHT, and have led away to a strawman caricature which you soaked in ad hominems and set alight with toxic accusations. When I described and corrected what was done, you moved to the next level, of twist-about accusation tantamount to "he hit back first." I have taken time to explicitly lay out my view on whether men of any given worldview can seek to follow the truth and the right, based on foundational Christian teachings that anyone participating in such a discussion should know. I trust you will now find it in you to acknowledge the point and refocus on the material, crucial issue on the table. Namely, some moral truths are self-evident, so we live in a world where OUGHT is real and must be grounded at worldview foundation level in an IS capable of bearing that awesome weight. I have pointed out in outline some reasons for holding that there is one serious candidate, after centuries: the inherently good, creator God who is a necessary and maximally great being. If you think I am wrong in that estimation, simply put forward another serious candidate. I take it, you know that trying to argue that something like the murder of a child is a matter of subjective feelings or relative beliefs simply opens the door to the nihilist credo, might and manipulation make 'right.' I have already pointed out by citing Wiki against interest on how cognitive dissonance and a peer pressure spiral can lead to chaos once such becomes entrenched in a situation. KFkairosfocus
July 24, 2014
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PPS: Let me cite the apostle Paul, laying out the Christian view on conscience and morality:
Rom 2: 6 He [God] will reward each one according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality, 8 but wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition and do not obey the truth but follow unrighteousness . . . . 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous before God, but those who do the law will be declared righteous. 14 For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, these who do not have the law are a law to themselves. 15 They show that the work of the law is written in their hearts, as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend them, 16 on the day when God will judge the secrets of human hearts, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus. [NET]
For the record, I accept this view, and so hold that we are accountable before the light of truth and right we know or should know. As a moderate inclusivist, I hold that if you are "informationally BC" you will be judged by the light you have and what you do with it. Specifically, if by penitence and persistent getting up to move towards the light, you show a heart that responds aright to the revelation written on conscience and in mind and the world around, I find reason to accept that such a one will be received with open arms. But for the one who stubbornly turns from the truth and the right he knows or should know . . . cannot not know, in effect, such a one is in a very different position. (Where, I suggest that we would find it helpful to reflect on here on, especially pausing to view the embedded Lee Strobel video.) In any case, it should be clear that all along -- and I have cited and commented on this text any number of times here at UD so this should be known -- my view has been that moral intuitions are evident from our nature as morally governed creatures that are conscious, rationally contemplative and enconscienced. So, regardless of worldviews, certain core principles of morality are naturally evident to all people of sound mind and enough maturity to understand what is at stake. As I have so often cited here at UD, the clip from Canon Hooker used by Locke to found his rights discussion in Ch 2 of his second treatise on civil gov't speaks pretty directly to this:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
So, whatever the failings of our worldviews, we have an inner, reasonable testimony that points us to pivotal truth and right. Where also, certain yardstick or plumbline moral truths such as the wrong of murder especially of a child, are outright self evident. Known to be true, once we understand the matter in light of our experience of the world as hunman beings, ans seen as must-be-so truth on pain of absurdity on attempted denial. This means there is a worldview foundational IS that can properly bear the weight of ought. And, it is a simple matter of accurate summary to state that after centuries, millennia of debate, the only serious candidate for that given both Hume's Guillotine and the Euthyphro dilemma argument is the inherently good creator God who is a necessary and maximally great being. If you doubt this, simply put forth another serious candidate that passes these two tests inter alia. (And so, BTW, the attempt above to project arrogant presumption for saying this, fails.) I hope the caricature being painted will be withdrawn. KFkairosfocus
July 24, 2014
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DK Huh??? Is probably not very helpful. I take it your trying to make a point unfortunately I don't know what it is. Vividvividbleau
July 24, 2014
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Daniel King:
Thank you for your ad hominem accusation. It is telling.
Oh, so one OUGHT NOT engage in ad hominem? Why not?Mung
July 24, 2014
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Acartia_bogart:
280 comments, but it still comes down to one side that says you can’t have morality without a god, and the other that says this is nonsense.
Are you reading the same comments I am? I see a "side" claiming you can have morality without a god. Also, I don't think you're framing the debate in the appropriate terms. One side claims that you cannot have morality without a ground for morality, and it finds this ground in God. The alternatives seem to be: Morality is meaningless, it can't be debated. You can have morality without any ground for morality. There is a ground for for morality, but it isn't found in any god. What's your position?Mung
July 24, 2014
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DK re 286 Huh??? Vividvividbleau
July 24, 2014
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DK, it seems you have made the error of presuming evolutionary materialist atheism and not addressing the relevant worldview foundation challenges it faces, and have therefore chosen option d — well poisoning by ad hominem laced accusations.
Thank you for your ad hominem accusation. It is telling.Daniel King
July 24, 2014
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kf, I am just finishing up Epistemology. The final chapter is so apropos to the current debate. But I am too lazy to type it up. And besides, what would be the point?Mung
July 24, 2014
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Mung:
In fact, given evolutionary materialism, what is the point of arguing for or against anything?
LarTanner:
There doesn’t need to be a point. Illustration: Every single post of yours and KF’s, ever.
Hilarious. And self-contradictory. As expected. Thank you for making my point!Mung
July 24, 2014
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DK, it seems you have made the error of presuming evolutionary materialist atheism and not addressing the relevant worldview foundation challenges it faces, and have therefore chosen option d -- well poisoning by ad hominem laced accusations. I direct your attention to 267 above on matters you need to ponder, including on what you and your ilk have enabled. For, as there is a quite serious issue on the merits on the table [worldview level grounding of mind and morality], a continued policy of well poisoning is tantamount to implying having no answer on the merits but hoping to poison and polarise to confuse the issue. Please think again. KF PS: You may find here on, on worldview foundational issues, relevant.kairosfocus
July 24, 2014
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