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Eric Harris Was Just Paying Attention

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Thank you to all of the materialists (and there were several) who rose to the challenge of my last post [Materialists: [crickets]]. We will continue the discussion we began there in this thread.

Before I continue, please allow me to clear up some confusion. Several of my interlocutors seem to believe that the purpose of my post is to refute metaphysical naturalism. (See here for instance) It is not. Please look again at the very first line of the paragraph I quoted: “Let us assume for the sake of argument that metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality.”

Please read that line again carefully. I am NOT arguing that metaphysical naturalism is false (though I believe it is; that is an argument for another day). I simply wish to explore the logical consequences of whole-heartedly embracing metaphysical naturalism. I thought this was clear, but apparently it was not, so I will repeat my argument step by step:

Step 1: What metaphysical naturalism asserts

Metaphysical naturalism asserts that nothing exists but matter, space and energy, and therefore every phenomenon is merely the product of particles in motion.

Step 2: Consequences of naturalism vis-à-vis, the “big questions”

Certain consequences with respect to God, ethics and meaning follow inexorably if metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality. Perhaps Will Provine summed these up best:

1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.

Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, February 12, 1998 (abstract)

Dawkins agrees:

The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, 133.

Step 3: Why Not Act Accordingly?

What if a person were able to act based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental understanding of the consequences outlined above? If that person had the courage not to be overwhelmed by the utter meaningless of existence, he would be transformed. He would be bold, self-confident, assertive, uninhibited, and unrestrained. He would consider empathy to be nothing but weak-kneed sentimentality. To him others would not be ends; they would be objects to be exploited for his own gratification. He would not mind being called cruel, because he would know that “cruelty” is an empty category, the product of mere sentiment. Is the lion being cruel to the gazelle? No, he is merely doing what lions naturally do to gazelles.

In my original argument I suggested this person would be a psychopath. That is not quite accurate. A psychopath, by definition, lacks empathy. Our Übermensch, however, might well have the capacity for empathy which he suppresses. It is more accurate, therefore, to say that the actions of the person who acts based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental acceptance of naturalism would be indistinguishable from the actions of a psychopath.

Step 4:

Finally, I raised the issue I would like to explore:

Why should our Übermensch refrain from hurting other people to achieve his selfish desires.

Mark Frank takes a stab at answering the question:

Do you mean “why should I?” in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Or do you mean “why should I” in the sense of “what is there in it for me?” In this case the pay-offs include:

* The intense satisfaction of having done the right thing.
* The congratulations of those that will approve of your action
* The firm example you will set for others to treat you the same way
* If done repeatedly an excellent basis for persuading others to do what you think it is right for them to do etc…

Thank you Mark. I believe your answer is about as good an answer as a naturalist can give. Let’s explore it and find out why it is wholly unsatisfactory as a logical matter.

Do you mean ‘why should I?’ in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Readers, notice the equivocation at the base of Mark’s argument. It is always “right” to do what is “right” is indeed a tautology if the word “right” is used in the same sense in both instances. But it is not. Remember, Mark is a metaphysical naturalist. The word “right” has no objective meaning for the metaphysical naturalist. It is purely subjective. For the metaphysical naturalist the good is the desirable and the desirable is that which he actually desires. In other words, Mark has no warrant to use the word “right” as if it had an objective meaning. Yet that is exactly what he does.

To see this, let us re-write Mark’s sentence using different words for the two senses of the word “right” that he uses: “of course, it is right [i.e., it conforms to a code of objective morality] to do what is right [i.e., that which I subjectively prefer].” Written this way, amplifying the inconsistent ways in which Mark uses the word “right,” exposes the fallacy.

Now let us turn to the second part of Mark’s argument. “What’s in it for me?” I want to thank Mark for unintentionally making my point for me. He says our Übermensch might refrain from hurting another person in order to achieve his selfish ends because he has engaged in a cost/benefit analysis. Mark points to certain “benefits” of refraining from hurting another person to achieve selfish ends. Presumably, the point of Mark’s argument is that “what’s in it for me” (i.e., the benefits received from not hurting the other person) outweighs the cost (failing to achieve a selfish end).

But of course Mark’s argument fails, because the benefits he suggests may not outweigh the cost. It depends on what selfish end the Übermensch wishes to achieve and how badly he wants it. Indeed, some of the so-called benefits are not really benefits at all to our Übermensch. Consider the first one: the intense satisfaction of having done the right thing. Here again Mark is employing a concept he has no right to employ. Our Übermensch understands that “the right thing” is a meaningless concept. Why should our Übermensch feel satisfaction at having conformed his behavior to a non-existent standard? That is the whole point of the exercise after all. Once we understand that there really is no such thing as “the right thing” why should we not do exactly as we please even if it hurts another person? Mark has no answer, because there is no answer.

Eric Harris was paying attention when someone taught him Nietzsche. He believed he was an Übermensch. He believed he was a lion and the other students at his school gazelles. On what grounds can a metaphysical naturalist say “Eric Harris was wrong”? Is it not true that the most a metaphysical naturalist can say is “I personally disagree with what he did and would not do it myself”?

A final note:
Many of the comments at the other thread concerned whether “objective morality” exists. I believe that it does, and those comments are very interesting. However, whether objective morality exists has no application in this thread. Again, the question I want to explore in this thread is “Why shouldn’t a metaphysical naturalist do exactly what he pleases even if it hurts another person?”

Comments
And where he got the idea that subjectivists seek to change their moral norms to justify their behaviour I cannot imagine. Not from observing subjectivists – that’s for sure.
Subjectivists create moral norms for themselves. They don't look to comply with a moral standard outside of their own. In order to create moral norms for themselves, they had to change them. At one time they didn't have the norm, and then later they did. Whether they changed the norm to justify behavior is irrelevant since the very same person who created the norm, is the person who justifies, rewards or condemns. It's interesting - a subjectivist creates a moral norm for oneself. "I will never do XYZ." Then the same person violates the norm. So this person then condemns his or herself. Ok, but is there any appeal process? :-) "Hey, self - don't condemn me, that moral norm is too strict and poorly defined. It doesn't take into consideration circumstances." Any lawyer knows how this works. There's always a loophole. But in this case, the lawmaker, judge, attorney and the defendant are the same person. There's obviously a conflict of interest. :-) It's not a question of who will win (the hard-line lawmaker or the slippery defendant) but who "should" win. What if the moral norm, created for oneself, really is unrealistic or unjust? Are we going to believe that a subjectivist will not change it just because the lawmaker/self created it? Then wouldn't that be an injustice done by the lawmaker? This just goes in endless loops. An unjust/just lawmaker, an innocent/guilty law-breaker, a loophole seeking/honest attorney for the defense and a judge who can/can't interpret the law.Silver Asiatic
July 23, 2014
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I submit that it doesn’t make all that much difference to the victim.
Of course. That's the point of this thread. From an atheist/materialist perspective, there's no real difference between life and death and no reason why any individual should or should not live. As well understood, the death of any person, or of the whole human race might be considered good or bad depending on any subjective opinion -- although in a purposeless existence even that doesn't make sense. Whereas from a theistic perspective, how and why she died would make a quite a lot of difference to the victim since the soul lives on and faces judgement.Silver Asiatic
July 23, 2014
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Mark Frank:
And where he got the idea that subjectivists seek to change their moral norms to justify their behaviour I cannot imagine.
It takes no imagination to recognize that claim as a standard rhetorical device that helps some brands of theists support their (subjective) need to feel morally superior to non-theists (or members of other sects)Daniel King
July 23, 2014
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"For me that’s a key point, it makes all the difference. The killer would have been violating Islamic ethics and therefore had nothing to base his violent action on." I submit that it doesn't make all that much difference to the victim.LarTanner
July 23, 2014
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That, by the way, is another of the many problems with subjectivism, which relies solely on perceptions and feeling rather than objective morality and reason. Rather than change their behavior to fit the moral norm, subjectivists seek to change the moral norm to justify their behavior.
I despair that after so many thousands of words of explanation Stephenb can write such utter rubbish. There is the usual false dichotomy between "perceptions and feelings" and "objective morality and reason". And where he got the idea that subjectivists seek to change their moral norms to justify their behaviour I cannot imagine. Not from observing subjectivists - that's for sure.Mark Frank
July 23, 2014
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SA: Even in Islam, the age at which accountability seems to be accorded is above eight years old. KF
Ok, thanks. For me that's a key point, it makes all the difference. The killer would have been violating Islamic ethics and therefore had nothing to base his violent action on. So he was a law unto himself - which is exactly what materialism would have everyone be.
In evaluating Islam’s revelatory claims, a material factor would be getting basic claims straight, especially regarding core teachings of the Judaeo-Christian tradition one purports to expose as distorted tot he point of disqualification, and to correct and restore to pristine condition.
I follow where you're going with this and I fully agree. I'm aware of what you're referring to. For me, I'd have to investigate the metaphysical or theological foundations (of something like Islam), because in many cases the objective moral law does not tell us enough about the nature of each act. If an act can be justified by a religious revelation, then we have to look at the source and quality of that revelation. That's a much harder task. In other cases, it's more obvious - stealing from an innocent person to destroy them and enhance one's own wealth is an obvious violation of objective morals. No religious teaching conflicts with that. None could because it would be so irrational and illogical it would lead only to chaos and anarchy.Silver Asiatic
July 23, 2014
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StephenB
The objective moral law in concert with reason, from which “just war” theory is derived, informs us about how to recognize a true enemy, when we can morally use military force against that enemy, and how we must conduct ourselves under those circumstances.
Ok, but I don't think one can arrive at the just war theory from the objective moral law and reason alone. It's a set of moral norms that is highly informed by Christian revelation. From a Catholic view also, for example, it's not part of defined moral teaching - it's still somewhat speculative. The objective moral law cannot be that specific and make subtle distinctions. It just gives the "moral basics" which can guide any person who doesn't have religious revelation. For Christians, Christ revealed God's moral law which is something more than anyone could discover through the objective moral law alone. So, when giving examples of the objective moral law that everyone must adhere to, the examples have to be the most obvious or even extreme examples. That way, even atheists who do not accept any religious revelation must be bound to the basics of the moral law.
In some cases, religious zealots fail to use objective morality and reason to discern a true enemy from a “perceived” enemy or to know how to treat the enemy in an appropriate way. Many of the Islamic ethic codes, for example, militate against the inherent dignity of the human person by failing to recognize that they are made in God’s image.
It's a good point about dignity but I'm arguing that the religious revelation informs the moral understanding. If a person is faithful to their understanding of Islam, then that results in a different moral code than a Christan view. I don't think one can point to reason alone to explain why non-revenge, for example, is a morally correct action. Christianity offers several counter-intuitive moral codes which align perfectly with reason, but which would be impossible to derive from reason alone. Something like killing heretics had to be understood from Christian revelation (theology) and not from the objective moral law.
Rather than change their behavior to fit the moral norm, subjectivists seek to change the moral norm to justify their behavior.
Yes, exactly - and with regards to materialism, moral norms can be created or discarded to match any kind of behavior. There is no law giver and so there is no final accounting or justice.Silver Asiatic
July 23, 2014
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Silver Asiatic
But I wouldn’t call that a violation of objective moral norms. The young girl was not perceived as innocent since she was considered an enemy of Islam. If, however, the killer shot her simply for the sake of killing someone, with no regard to her religion or race – that would be a crime against the objective moral order.
The objective moral law in concert with reason, from which “just war” theory is derived, informs us about how to recognize a true enemy, when we can morally use military force against that enemy, and how we must conduct ourselves under those circumstances. In some cases, religious zealots fail to use objective morality and reason to discern a true enemy from a “perceived” enemy or to know how to treat the enemy in an appropriate way. Many of the Islamic ethic codes, for example, militate against the inherent dignity of the human person by failing to recognize that they are made in God's image. That, by the way, is another of the many problems with subjectivism, which relies solely on perceptions and feeling rather than objective morality and reason. Rather than change their behavior to fit the moral norm, subjectivists seek to change the moral norm to justify their behavior.StephenB
July 23, 2014
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SA: Even in Islam, the age at which accountability seems to be accorded is above eight years old. KF PS: In evaluating Islam's revelatory claims, a material factor would be getting basic claims straight, especially regarding core teachings of the Judaeo-Christian tradition one purports to expose as distorted tot he point of disqualification, and to correct and restore to pristine condition. While such is afield of this blog's focus, that raises sobering concerns, cf basic notes here, for instance. (And, do pardon ruffled feathers if any out there, I am responding on a point of fact.)kairosfocus
July 23, 2014
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Hi KF I'm certainly not defending the action, so that's not the point. I have a Christian perspective so my morality is informed both by the objective moral law and Christian revelation. It seems much of what you wrote is written from a Christian perspective, but we can't call Christian revelation part of an objective moral norm. I was looking at the system of ethics that provided moral reasoning. In this case, Islamic teaching. But you could look at metaphysical materialism also. Would the killing be justified under a materialistic ethics? Yes, it would be -- for reasons I gave. The same with Islam. You gave the example of non-combatants (and also what happened in WWII where Christian/American leaders dropped bombs on civilians). The Just War theory is a Christian construct. It doesn't apply in Islam. Non-believers are considered guilty. One area I'm not sure about is whether the age of the non-believer is a moral factor in Islam. If so, then that would have been a violation of conscience to kill an 8 yr old. As far as revenge killing, again - it's a Christan concept to love one's enemies, turn the cheek and leave revenge to God. It's not part of Islam where justice is supposed to be given to enemies. The same could be true for atheism where there's only justice in this life, so revenge would be logically justified. The terrorist, in this case, could have believed it was his mission to kill enemies of Islam. I think a lot of them do think and act that way. I think the problem is with the first principles because you can't argue from the action itself, given that Islam calls for the destruction of enemies for the glory of Allah.
It is as if God gave him a second chance to think again on what he was doing, but he was too taken up with his hate and blood lust; having already killed several adults. This was murder, pure and simple. And, the case is held up as a yardstick of the shedding of patently innocent blood.
Certainly innocent by my standards. But in some parts of the Muslim world, as a Christian, I would be considered guilty as an unbeliever, for example. In my view, I haven't done anything wrong. But I would still be subject to harrassment or even a command to "convert or die". My polnt here is that the way to solve this problem is not with reference to an individual act but in reference to the quality of the moral code that allows for such things. That's where it gets difficult. Can it be shown that Islam is flawed as a basis for morality? In my view, that many Muslims insist that the Koran teaches a "religion of peace" and they denounce violence is evidence of a problem, since that seems to contradict what the Koran teaches and what other Muslims believe. To me that looks like a flaw in consistency.
That case is not on trial, we are on how we respond to it.
Again, I hope you don't think my analysis of this incident was in any way an attempt to justify or rationalize it on my part. I was attempting to look at the moral norms and sort out what would apply in all cases. As I mentioned, if the killer used absolutely no reasoning in deciding to kill a child, it would be a more obvious case of a violation of objective moral norms. The fact that he could reference a moral or religious code makes it more difficult.Silver Asiatic
July 23, 2014
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Dr Selensky, please note Durston at comment 95. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2014
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Dr Selensky, maybe this is what you want? I found it on a Google search. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2014
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SA: We are talking about an eight year old girl, resident in France and probably a French citizen. She was not a combatant or on a battlefield acting as a child soldier or one in the direct logistics train or the like. Nor, was she in the position of collateral damage during a legitimate military operation targetting a legitimate military target, awful though that is -- I recall here, the awful decision Eisenhower had to make to bomb the very same country of France to prepare the way for the D-Day invasion seventy years ago, with the issue of the development of nukes and rockets that could carry them obviously lurking in the background. This shy little girl was just there at her dad's workplace thousands of miles from any zone of active conflict, when a terrorist showed up presuming to have the power to be judge, jury and executioner on the capital crime of breathing while being Jewish; not in Israel, but in France. He chased her down, caught her, put a first gun to her head and tried to fire -- it jammed. He took out a second gun to kill her. It is as if God gave him a second chance to think again on what he was doing, but he was too taken up with his hate and blood lust; having already killed several adults. This was murder, pure and simple. And, the case is held up as a yardstick of the shedding of patently innocent blood. That case is not on trial, we are on how we respond to it. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2014
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I’m certain it was Mohammed’s adherence to metaphysical naturalism, and not the objective morality that come from belief in the one true Judeo-Christian-Islamic deity (the people of the God of the book) that led him to think this was the proper action. If only he had faith and the transcendent objective morals that come with it, unlike, say, Eric Harris.
Murder, in terms of objective morality, is the deliberate killing of a person who is innocent. So, killing in self-defense or enemies wartime is not murder per se. In the example given, based on Islamic moral principles, Jews are considered as enemies and there's the historic warfare in the Holy Land between Muslim and Jew. From a Christian perspective(and probably the majority of non-Christians in the West), the incident is an obvious immoral act -- going against common moral norms. But I wouldn't call that a violation of objective moral norms. The young girl was not perceived as innocent since she was considered an enemy of Islam. If, however, the killer shot her simply for the sake of killing someone, with no regard to her religion or race - that would be a crime against the objective moral order. For metaphysical naturalism, however - there can't be any objective moral first principles. There can't be a sense of innocent or guilty really either -- since there is no purpose that any human being has for existence. There are no eternal consequences or justice for acts committed either. Killing of a Jewish girl like that could be considered "good" by evolutionary standards, if one race decided to eliminate all others. To argue against Islamic ethical codes requires a comparative study of the Koran and Mohammed's claims to try to understand if he had an authentic revelation from God.Silver Asiatic
July 23, 2014
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KF, Thanks anyway!EugeneS
July 23, 2014
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Dr Selensky, I think that may be a bit hard to find, what is easily to hand is that there is a 500 - 1,000 bit threshold based on atomic resources. I suggest that such a limit would be set by time available, generation lifespans, with bacteria dominant -- what, 20 minutes? -- and planet scale resources for reasonable solar system spans; perhaps constrained by amount of available carbon in the observed cosmos (the only observed cosmos). KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2014
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Kairosfocus, colleagues, I was asked how an upper bound on the amount of functional complexity was computed for biological systems (140 bits or, equivalently 10^40 organisms). Even though I know the principle of the calculation, I could not answer in enough detail. I was wondering if there was a post specifically about this. What I'd like to know in particular is assumptions regarding the maximum replication rate etc. I remember seeing a video by Kirk Durston where he explained this but I would not be able to find it now quickly enough. Many Thanks!EugeneS
July 23, 2014
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MF: Pardon an observation. The difference between X is right/wrong, and X SEEMS right/wrong to me/us is quite clear enough and non-circular. The pivotal issue is whether (a) we actually are under the moral government of OUGHT, or that (b) this only appears so, in a world where there is in fact no world-foundational IS capable of bearing the weight of ought. The by far and away consensus of humanity over the ages and today, is that we indeed are under moral government, including among leading lights of civilisation. To speak on the premise of that consensus, then, is not question begging; once there is no knock-down counter-argument that is sound. Of such, we can find nowhere the faintest trace, never mind the lab coat clad self-refuting declarations of a William Provine:
Naturalistic evolution [= evolutionary materialism] has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . . [2nd annual Darwin Day address U Tenn, 1998]
The obvious point is that the five listed conclusions are CONSEQUENCES of a prior commitment to evolutionary materialism, which has been imposed while dressed up in the lab coat. But in fact, immediately, if we have no responsible freedom, we can have neither minds nor morals, and this is patently counter-factual and absurd. That is why it is so stoutly resisted by the ordinary, reasonable person. And so, the implication of the a priori of materialism that there is no foundational IS that can bear the weight of OUGHT, becomes moot. As Haldane ling since warned:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
Instead, if anything, we must note that when advocates of evolutionary materialism seek to justify themselves by making morally grounded arguments and assertions, they directly imply that they too are under such moral government. So, what is under test is not really the consensus of the race -- a consensus shown by how common quarrels are and by what they try to do: show the other party to be in the wrong -- but rather schemes of thought that imply that such a consensus on a major aspect of mind, is delusional. (Which BTW immediately raises the implication of general delusion in the human mind; which is self referentially undermining of rationality.) What is under test, is a system that implies that might and manipulation make 'right.' Namely, evolutionary materialism, as has been so exposed 2,350 years past and still standing. I therefore respectfully but firmly suggest that you need to ponder that fatal foundational crack and other similar cracks. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2014
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REC: Pardon, but I think a re-think is in order. I think a direct observation is necessary: has anyone -- other than you -- suggested that being religious means that one cannot descend to murder? On fair comment, no. (That is, you have set up and knocked over a strawman.) Here is the apostle James on the matter:
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Can this kind of faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm and eat well,” but you do not give them what the body needs, what good is it? 17 So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith without works and I will show you faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; well and good. Even the demons believe that—and tremble with fear . . . 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.[NET]
The correct issue is not merely to believe in God, but to repent from "dead works" as a part of coming to trust in God -- leading to a pattern of living that manifests the "fruit" of repentance. As, should be well known to one and all but is not in a day where there are all too many that insistently try to redefine belief in God as delusional, blind, irrational belief. Which of course easily lends itself to irrational behaviour, a perception that then reinforces the well-poisoning patterns of thought that have been so widely promoted by the so-called New Atheists. In fact, the proper understanding of Faith in the Judaeo-Christian tradition is close to "well-founded trust that manifests itself in confident action on the promises of God, further shaped by the moral requisites of right relationship with the Holy, Just and Good God -- involving turning from wrongdoing and evil." (I suggest you see here on for a 101 on the inescapable intertwining of reason and belief in the roots of a worldview, including self-evident first principles of right reason that must be taken on trust to begin to think straight. Boiled down, as finite, fallible minds with bounded rationality, we cannot but begin from a faith-point in our thinking and living; the real issue is which faith stance we take, why. Similarly, here on will help you understand the specific warrant for faith in God in light of the Gospel. Make sure to watch the video. If you wish to critique Judaeo-Christian thought and ethics, do kindly first make a diligent effort to correctly understand the foundations.) And, I should also point out that while Islam clearly intends to be addressing the same God of Judaeo-Christian theism, precisely because it sees itself as correcting such [and in so doing makes some unfortunate errors that can be seen for instance in Q 9:29 ff and elsewhere] there are sufficient differences in the Islamic understanding that should make one pause before simply conflating the three. There are links, but the three are sufficiently diverse that (particularly in regards to Islam) the differences can be material. Going back to the specific example, it shows what happens when one refuses to acknowledge the essential equality and moral worth of one's fellow human being. Where also, murderous behaviour is not simply equatable with mental illness. By far and away most people who are mentally ill are not murderously hateful. Let us not mischaracterise them by painting with a broad brush that splatters far and wide. That, too, is prejudice. And, those who professionally assess people on whether they are criminally insane, mark a distinction between being mad and bad. It is possible to be mad but not bad, and to be bad but not mad. It is even possible to distinguish how a mad person can be also bad. To be bad in the relevant sense is to willfully, knowingly choose the wrong when one knew or should have known better. Harris knew better, and so did Merah. Those who failed to provide adequate protection at the two schools also should have known better, too. (Nor is this just a matter of "guns." Bombs and knives are also quite relevant; indeed there was a horrific knife attack in China. And yet, here, I have not the slightest concern that people routinely sharpen machetes "back and belly" for agricultural use. Judaeo-Christian ethics are sufficiently pervasive in the community that the thought of attacking and massacring those in a school as an undifferentiated mass to make some twisted demonic statement is simply not on the radar screen. If there begins to be a penetration of forces and trends that undermine that consensus, I would then take a different view.) What is material to the actual issue on the table is, first, that it is self evident that Merah, like Harris, did what was wrong and a violation of fundamental rights tied to the inherent dignity of the human person. That is undeniable, apart from the sort of absurdities and word twisting rhetorical gymnastics that are unfortunately seen above in this thread. The horrible reality of rights and of wrongs in violation of such then highlights that we are under moral government, under the force of OUGHT. This means that we need to recognise the need for a foundational IS in the world capable of bearing the weight of ought. For which, again -- after 2350 years of debate on the record -- there is but one serious candidate: the inherently good, Creator God who is a necessary and maximally great Being. Attempts to found morality on the arbitrary will of a god fail -- where the Euthyphro dilemma has a strictly limited point. Attempts to found it on social consensus and the twists and turns of the tactics of the spinmeisters pushing agendas fail. Attempts to found it on one's subjective sense of what is right fail. Attempts to derive it from blind chance and mechanical necessity acting on living matter through time fail. So, we face the stark choice between God, the inherently good as the foundational IS that grounds OUGHT, and the ultimately amoral credo, might and manipulation make 'right.' But, so stark is that choice that many will insist on finding a third way. Which, on the logic involved, will inevitably fail. And in particular, the moral bankruptcy of Harris' evolutionary materialism was on the record 2350 years ago in the work of one of the top ten writers of our civilisation. (Do you not wonder why the text I have cited above is so little known? Shouldn't that give us pause? Or, has the level of thought in our time fallen so far?) Yes, in our day we are not prone to think in terms of roots and foundations. But that does not make such unimportant. Yes, one can behave in general in a moral way, even if one rests on a foundation that cannot ground ought. And one who can access that foundation can do awful things. Neither of these is relevant to what is crucially on the table: first, that we do need to ground OUGHT, and second what happens in a culture when we systematically undermine the grounding of ought. But then, Santayana long ago warned that while those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat its worst chapters, by and large we refuse to learn from history. Marx adds, that this explains why history repeats, to the point of sad farce. The problem is, the lessons of history -- often bought with the hard, hard price of blood -- are so often unpalatable, challenging and uncomfortable, even demanding. So, maybe there is a point to the view that we often prefer comfortable delusions to hard, prickly realities. Which constantly repeated pattern and its consequences, again, is one of those hard-bought lessons of history. But, this time around will there be enough widows and mothers left to cry the rivers of tears that are coming? KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2014
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I hold that this is wrong, not merely that it meets with my disapproval. I hold that Merah — who thought himself justified in “retaliation” against Jews in France for real or imagined crimes of Jews in Israel — was wrong, and should have known he was wrong.
The first part of this sentence is a standard move in this particular debate. Take some issue on which there is almost universal agreement that it is wrong and then emphasise that is REALLY WRONG and not just mere disapproval or whim. This is argument by moral pressure. It makes it look as though any attempt to challenge the objectivist view of ethics is also condoning behaviour we all find unacceptable.  In fact there is a world of difference between mere disapproval and passionate condemnation based on reasons and a confidence that almost everyone else also condemns that behaviour. But we have been over this so many times ….. More interesting is the final phrase  “and should have known he was wrong”. If “wrong” is an objective attribute of an action then why is someone culpable for failing to know it applies?  They might have failed to notice that particular aspect of the action or have been a bit slow in working it out or made a mistake in their deductions.  On the other hand it makes perfect sense if you recognise that moral language is prescriptive. To say “you ought to have known it is wrong” is simply a way of reiterating your condemnation and possible also condemning your lack of sensitivity.Mark Frank
July 23, 2014
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Stephenb:
So it is just a coincidence that four people on this thread thought that it means exactly what it says and not what you say that it means?
Of course it says what it means. We are all using the same common English words. The question is what does it mean? Accurately describing meanings in non-circular terms is hard – even for commonly used words.
If I say that murder is wrong, I am not saying that it is wrong for me, nor am I simply expressing personal disapproval. I am saying that murder is wrong for everyone. That is the plain meaning of the words.
Sure. And if I censure an action I am censuring everyone from doing it.  That is plainly what I am doing.  Somewhere along the line you have to incorporate the prescriptive element, as vj pointed out. To make a moral statement is not just to describe the state of affairs it is also logically linked to action.  Someone who says “rape is evil but that is no reason for trying to prevent it” just doesn’t know how to use the word “evil”. You have never come to grips with this.
Everyone, except those whose psychic has been injured, knows that it is wrong to hate, lie, cheat, slander, murder, and commit adultery. If there is any disagreement, it is only because they don’t understand or refuse to accept all the extended applications and implications of each of those commandments that reason dictates. Indeed, that is one of the reasons why subjectivists attack reason. They would prefer not to face the truth or be bound to it. They would rather create their own alternate reality and bind themselves to a moral code that they find personally convenient.
Why do you choose ethical examples on which there is almost universal agreement? Actually adultery is bit different – in many societies where marriage was arranged as a matter of convenience it was considered acceptable practice – at least for men – they can’t all have had their psychic injured.  But let’s take topics which there is clear disagreement:  practising homosexuality or using animals for scientific experiments. In these cases you can know all the relevant facts and still disagree on whether it is right or wrong.  (And stop telling me why I have my beliefs. You are not a psychologist and you know nothing about me.) 
I am familiar with your tradition,
So what did you think of The Language of Morals? Do you understand that the meaning of words can be something other than descriptions of external affairs? 
But you are not familiar with mine. Accordingly, it is you that needs to catch up on your reading. Begin with J. Budziszewski
I could always learn more but we were discussing subjectivism.Mark Frank
July 22, 2014
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"[Mohammed Merah] murdered Miriam Monsonego, daughter of the principal of a Jewish day school....." I'm certain it was Mohammed's adherence to metaphysical naturalism, and not the objective morality that come from belief in the one true Judeo-Christian-Islamic deity (the people of the God of the book) that led him to think this was the proper action. If only he had faith and the transcendent objective morals that come with it, unlike, say, Eric Harris. KF, If this example proves anything, it is that there are mentally ill persons of all persuasions.REC
July 22, 2014
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PS: Let us go back to the concrete case raised above, the murder of an eight year old girl by a man who thought her guilty of the capital crime of breathing while being Jewish:
[Mohammed Merah] chased an 8-year-old girl [Miriam Monsonego, daughter of the principal of a Jewish day school in Toulouse, France] into the courtyard [of the school], caught her by her hair and raised a gun to shoot her. The gun jammed at this point and he changed weapons from what the police identified as a 9mm pistol to a .45 calibre gun, and shot the girl in her temple at point-blank range. The gunman then retrieved his moped and drove off.
I hold that this is wrong, not merely that it meets with my disapproval. I hold that Merah -- who thought himself justified in "retaliation" against Jews in France for real or imagined crimes of Jews in Israel -- was wrong, and should have known he was wrong. If we have reached a point where in order to preserve a favoured worldview we have a blurring of the difference, we see exactly what Plato warned against in action.kairosfocus
July 22, 2014
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DK (attn SB): Pardon, but our subjectivity simply means that we are self-aware, rationally contemplative agents . . . something that inherently cannot be adequately explained on GIGO-limited mechanical computation based on cause-effect links in procesors; even as -- per Leibnitz -- the logic of a mill is not explained through gears grinding away at one another. It simply is not the opposite of objectivity. That which is objectively so, has real, and warranted existence, it is not merely a perception . . . a figment of our imagination. Nor does this require physical, empirical manifestations as such. Numbers starting from the empty set corresponding to cardinality zero, {} --> 0, {0} --> 1, etc, can be built up as a purely mental exercise and indeed in this way one can construct a world model which would have a credible reality in itself as such a construct; which can then be manifested on a software stage as a simulated world. There are many aspects of such that are self-evidently true, and much more that can be shown to be necessarily so, once certain premises obtain. To make a new cosmos like that that would have physical existence would be a case of "go get your own dirt," starting doubtless with go get your own energy. It seems, the confusion at work pivots on there being an assumed case of nothing but subjectivity riding on blind mechanical causal chains. Thus, the matter in discussion needs to be addressed at worldviews level. A quick trip to Crick's 1994 The Astonishing Hypothesis will suffice:
"You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
Philip Johnson, in his 1995 Reason in the Balance, has aptly replied that Sir Francis should have therefore been willing to preface his works thusly: "I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules." Johnson then acidly commented: “[[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” In short, we have here yet another manifestation of the self-referential incoherence of evolutionary materialism. This view, never mind the lab coats, is simply not a serious worldview. (No wonder the so called New Atheists have latterly largely resorted to well-poisoning arguments by half-truths, cultural myths and the like. That such sophomoric appeals to rage have become bestsellers speaks volumes about the mindset of our time, and none of it good.) Nope, we can safely return to the proper and longstanding distinction SB has underscored: X seems to be the case to me is categorically distinct from X is the case. And, on matters of morality, I must repeat, even the attempts above by materialists to justify themselves shows just how true is the point that we are morally governed creatures who find ourselves bound by the force of OUGHT. This points to the reasonable issue of a grounding IS that can bear the weight of OUGHT. For which, there has long been exactly one serious candidate: the inherently good, creator God who is a necessary and maximally great being. Where, as Plato showed in The Laws BK X, 2350 years ago . . . which keeps being studiously ignored . . . evolutionary materialism ever ends up in radical relativism and amorality, opening the way to nihilist factions:
Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that . . . The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [ --> In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors: (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . . [[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT.] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [ --> Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them.
The difference is that over the past 150 years or so, by dressing up in the lab coat, materialism has come across more persuasively to many. But, fundamentally, that is by begging the question through cultural influence and institutional dominance, as Lewontin so clearly exemplifies in his 1997 NYRB article, Billions and billions of demons:
. . . the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [And if you have been taken in by the assertion that such is "quote mined" kindly cf. the linked wider context and notes.]
Our time needs to stop, reflect, turn back and start over again on a sounder footing for both mind and morals. KFkairosfocus
July 22, 2014
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StephenB:
If I say that murder is wrong, I am not saying that it is wrong for me, nor am I simply expressing personal disapproval. I am saying that murder is wrong for everyone. That is the plain meaning of the words.
You still fail to understand how to reason like a Darwinist. Murder is wrong for everyone, unless it isn't.Mung
July 22, 2014
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Mark Frank, LarTanner, and RDFish. All we're missing is Reciprocating Bill.Mung
July 22, 2014
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Mark:
To say something is wrong is not to assert a fact about it but to censure it.
So it is just a coincidence that four people on this thread thought that it means exactly what it says and not what you say that it means? Definition censure: "to express severe disapproval of (someone or something), typically in a formal statement." If I say that murder is wrong, I am not saying that it is wrong for me, nor am I simply expressing personal disapproval. I am saying that murder is wrong for everyone. That is the plain meaning of the words.
Moral language is prescriptive (as the philosopher R.M. Hare explained so clearly in The Language of Morals).
All that nonsense comes from Kant, who believed that morality is not "without" but "within. Why would I accept the word of a philosopher who tries to uphold such a non-thinking tradition.
Two people can know all the relevant facts about about something and one assert it is wrong and the other assert it is right.
Everyone, except those whose psychic has been injured, knows that it is wrong to hate, lie, cheat, slander, murder, and commit adultery. If there is any disagreement, it is only because they don't understand or refuse to accept all the extended applications and implications of each of those commandments that reason dictates. Indeed, that is one of the reasons why subjectivists attack reason. They would prefer not to face the truth or be bound to it. They would rather create their own alternate reality and bind themselves to a moral code that they find personally convenient.
You guys need to read more linguistic philosophy then you would get out of this trap of treating all language as describing when it does so much more.
I am familiar with your tradition, but you are not familiar with mine. Accordingly, it is you that needs to catch up on your reading. Begin with J. BudziszewskiStephenB
July 22, 2014
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I will add that all humans are trapped in the subjectivity of every value judgment they make, but adherents of the theology/philosophy espoused by Phinehas don't realize it or are conditioned to deny it.Daniel King
July 22, 2014
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Sorry for butting in, but this statement by Phinehas strikes me as so inane that I have an irresistible urge to analyze it:
But I answer, yet again, that it is only an a priori insistence that there is no God or that he cannot embed objective truth into our psyche that is keeping you trapped in subjectivity in the first place.
This presupposes the combination of a theology positing a certain law-giving god and a rationalist philosophical claim that humans are born equipped with certain kinds of innate knowledge. Anyone not already informed about those theological and philosophical claims could not be guilty of stubbornly resisting them. Nor should anyone who finds those claims unwarranted be faulted for not accepting them.Daniel King
July 22, 2014
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MF:
On the contrary, this is the kind of thing only an objectivist can reasonably say about rape. To say that rape seems wrong is to imply I might be mistaken which implies there some external condition to check my statement against. An objectivist might reasonably say rape seems wrong because e.g. they might have misinterpreted the natural moral law and actually rape was OK.
Read @226 above to see why this is wrong.Phinehas
July 22, 2014
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