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Eric Harris Was Just Paying Attention

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Thank you to all of the materialists (and there were several) who rose to the challenge of my last post [Materialists: [crickets]]. We will continue the discussion we began there in this thread.

Before I continue, please allow me to clear up some confusion. Several of my interlocutors seem to believe that the purpose of my post is to refute metaphysical naturalism. (See here for instance) It is not. Please look again at the very first line of the paragraph I quoted: “Let us assume for the sake of argument that metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality.”

Please read that line again carefully. I am NOT arguing that metaphysical naturalism is false (though I believe it is; that is an argument for another day). I simply wish to explore the logical consequences of whole-heartedly embracing metaphysical naturalism. I thought this was clear, but apparently it was not, so I will repeat my argument step by step:

Step 1: What metaphysical naturalism asserts

Metaphysical naturalism asserts that nothing exists but matter, space and energy, and therefore every phenomenon is merely the product of particles in motion.

Step 2: Consequences of naturalism vis-à-vis, the “big questions”

Certain consequences with respect to God, ethics and meaning follow inexorably if metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality. Perhaps Will Provine summed these up best:

1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.

Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, February 12, 1998 (abstract)

Dawkins agrees:

The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, 133.

Step 3: Why Not Act Accordingly?

What if a person were able to act based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental understanding of the consequences outlined above? If that person had the courage not to be overwhelmed by the utter meaningless of existence, he would be transformed. He would be bold, self-confident, assertive, uninhibited, and unrestrained. He would consider empathy to be nothing but weak-kneed sentimentality. To him others would not be ends; they would be objects to be exploited for his own gratification. He would not mind being called cruel, because he would know that “cruelty” is an empty category, the product of mere sentiment. Is the lion being cruel to the gazelle? No, he is merely doing what lions naturally do to gazelles.

In my original argument I suggested this person would be a psychopath. That is not quite accurate. A psychopath, by definition, lacks empathy. Our Übermensch, however, might well have the capacity for empathy which he suppresses. It is more accurate, therefore, to say that the actions of the person who acts based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental acceptance of naturalism would be indistinguishable from the actions of a psychopath.

Step 4:

Finally, I raised the issue I would like to explore:

Why should our Übermensch refrain from hurting other people to achieve his selfish desires.

Mark Frank takes a stab at answering the question:

Do you mean “why should I?” in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Or do you mean “why should I” in the sense of “what is there in it for me?” In this case the pay-offs include:

* The intense satisfaction of having done the right thing.
* The congratulations of those that will approve of your action
* The firm example you will set for others to treat you the same way
* If done repeatedly an excellent basis for persuading others to do what you think it is right for them to do etc…

Thank you Mark. I believe your answer is about as good an answer as a naturalist can give. Let’s explore it and find out why it is wholly unsatisfactory as a logical matter.

Do you mean ‘why should I?’ in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Readers, notice the equivocation at the base of Mark’s argument. It is always “right” to do what is “right” is indeed a tautology if the word “right” is used in the same sense in both instances. But it is not. Remember, Mark is a metaphysical naturalist. The word “right” has no objective meaning for the metaphysical naturalist. It is purely subjective. For the metaphysical naturalist the good is the desirable and the desirable is that which he actually desires. In other words, Mark has no warrant to use the word “right” as if it had an objective meaning. Yet that is exactly what he does.

To see this, let us re-write Mark’s sentence using different words for the two senses of the word “right” that he uses: “of course, it is right [i.e., it conforms to a code of objective morality] to do what is right [i.e., that which I subjectively prefer].” Written this way, amplifying the inconsistent ways in which Mark uses the word “right,” exposes the fallacy.

Now let us turn to the second part of Mark’s argument. “What’s in it for me?” I want to thank Mark for unintentionally making my point for me. He says our Übermensch might refrain from hurting another person in order to achieve his selfish ends because he has engaged in a cost/benefit analysis. Mark points to certain “benefits” of refraining from hurting another person to achieve selfish ends. Presumably, the point of Mark’s argument is that “what’s in it for me” (i.e., the benefits received from not hurting the other person) outweighs the cost (failing to achieve a selfish end).

But of course Mark’s argument fails, because the benefits he suggests may not outweigh the cost. It depends on what selfish end the Übermensch wishes to achieve and how badly he wants it. Indeed, some of the so-called benefits are not really benefits at all to our Übermensch. Consider the first one: the intense satisfaction of having done the right thing. Here again Mark is employing a concept he has no right to employ. Our Übermensch understands that “the right thing” is a meaningless concept. Why should our Übermensch feel satisfaction at having conformed his behavior to a non-existent standard? That is the whole point of the exercise after all. Once we understand that there really is no such thing as “the right thing” why should we not do exactly as we please even if it hurts another person? Mark has no answer, because there is no answer.

Eric Harris was paying attention when someone taught him Nietzsche. He believed he was an Übermensch. He believed he was a lion and the other students at his school gazelles. On what grounds can a metaphysical naturalist say “Eric Harris was wrong”? Is it not true that the most a metaphysical naturalist can say is “I personally disagree with what he did and would not do it myself”?

A final note:
Many of the comments at the other thread concerned whether “objective morality” exists. I believe that it does, and those comments are very interesting. However, whether objective morality exists has no application in this thread. Again, the question I want to explore in this thread is “Why shouldn’t a metaphysical naturalist do exactly what he pleases even if it hurts another person?”

Comments
vividbleau:
What a cheap shot. Obviously you do not understand the Christian gospel.
On the contrary, it's a shot to the heart. Read and learn:
How is it that people who are quite obviously eaten up with Pride can say they believe in God and appear to themselves very religious? I am afraid it means they are worshiping an imaginary God. They theoretically admit themselves to be nothing in the presence of this phantom God, but are really all the time imagining how He approves of them and thinks they are far better than ordinary people. They pay a pennyworth of imaginary humility to Him and get out of it a pound’s worth of Pride towards their fellowmen. I suppose it was of those people Christ was thinking when He said that some would preach about Him and cast out devils in His name, only to be told at the end of the world that He had never known them. And any of us may at any moment be in this death trap. Luckily, we have a test. Whenever we find that our religious life is making us feel that we are good – above all, that we are better than someone else – I think we may be sure that we are being acted on, not by God, but by the devil.
Daniel King
July 24, 2014
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F/N: Just to remind of the challenge: _______________ >> I disagree with evolutionary materialism, holding it — along with some fairly distinguished company starting with Plato in The Laws Bk X 360 BC — inescapably self referentially incoherent and unable to ground either a credible, knowing mind or morality. I do so for cause, let me again cite Haldane, a leading light of the Neo-Darwinian synthesis, for an in a nutshell:
“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
. . . and Wm Provine in his U Tenn. 1998 Darwin Day keynote speech:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .
I take these to be quite clear admissions against interest on the record. In the former case, we see a distancing from the implications of lab coat clad evolutionary materialism. In the second, we see an outright admission that never mind the lab coats evolutionary materialism has no foundational IS that bears the weight of OUGHT. When this is compounded by the declaration that responsible rational freedom is dead, killed by drowning in a sea of blind chance and mechanical necessity, this is immediately an erasure of moral responsibility (which he then tries to put in a favourable light by pretending to penal reform, apparently not realising C S Lewis’ warning on where turning prison into compulsory “therapy” at the hands of powers whose moral basis has been undermined leads). He also inadvertently undermines mind, as without freedom to choose reasonably, rational contemplation is dead. But, as I recently argued, that is a necessary consequence of trying to collapse rational contemplation into blindly mechanical computational processing in some architecture or another. I have argued — again, in a tradition that traces back to Plato — evo mat therefore inherently opens the door to those who manipulate based on undermining of both. If I am actually wrong, it would be quite easy to refute me. First, show how mind emerges from meat and escapes the GIGO-driven computation vs contemplation gap. Otherwise evo mat thinkers will be trying to get North by going West. Second, show the evo mat worldview foundation IS that grounds OUGHT as the principle of moral government, without reducing to amoral, nihilism-inviting absurdities such as might and manipulation make ‘right’ and ‘truth.’ . . . . And, we can all then see for ourselves the real balance on the merits: a: If I am grossly misinformed and in blatant error, it will be easy for MF et al to correct, deriving mind from meat and finding a materialistic foundational IS that grounds OUGHT without absurdity. b: If there is no sound materialist answer at a, the implication will emerge from absence of such an answer. c: If this is studiously ignored, silence will speak louder than words can. d: if instead, we see further well-poisoning, twisting, caricaturing and studious obfuscation, that too will speak by what it implies . . . no answer on the merits let us shoot at the messenger. >> _______________ So far studious silence, or strawman caricature tactics. Let's see if we will instead see a substantial response. KFkairosfocus
July 24, 2014
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Mark
What do you mean the morality of human nature? Do you mean a morality caused by human nature. Or justified by human nature? Or what?
The morality of human nature is exactly what the words indicate. It is a set of moral laws that determine what kinds of behavior are good or bad for humans. I don’t know how it could be more obvious.
I certainly believe our moral behaviour is caused by human nature.
We are discussing what the morality of human nature is, not what human nature is alleged to cause.
As you know I don’t believe there is an ultimate incontrovertible justification for morality – but it doesn’t matter so very much because we accept many imperfect justifications as part of our human nature.
Don’t you realize what you are doing? You are, once again, using the language of objective morality. What is an imperfection if not a failure to reach an objective standard of perfection?
Do we have to go over this all over again? By “right thing” I mean what I condone with good (but not ultimate) reason.
Again, you are misusing words. The word “right,” in a moral context, has nothing to do with what is “condoned.” It means what it means. Definition: Right --morally good, justified, or acceptable. "I hope we're doing the right thing" synonyms: just, fair, proper, good, upright, righteous, virtuous, moral, ethical, honorable, honest; More lawful, legal "it wouldn't be right to do that" antonyms: wrong, unjust • 2. true or correct as a fact. SB: If a human being has no purpose, there can be no good. That should be obvious.
I am sorry I don’t find that at all obvious.
I am sorry that you hold that position since it is, indeed, obvious. SB: What is a good anything? A good can opener is one that opens cans. A good pen is one that writes. If you try to use a pen to open a can, you will fail to open the can and you will ruin the pen. If the pen and the can opener have no purpose, neither can be “good” or “bad” or “right” or “wrong.” They just are. If a human being tries to act like an animal, he will not only fail to achieve his end, he will ruin himself in the process.
You are using “good” in the sense of “effective”. But when we use good in the moral sense we don’t mean that. It is nothing but a rather crude play on words.
It is not a play on words, which is why I provided several examples to dramatize the point. Good, in a moral context, cannot be rationally separated from purpose and nature. How would you define a good can opener? How would you define a good pen? How would you define a "good" anything? SB: Yet you have stated that you cannot provide a rational justification for your position.
Yes – that was an error – I should have said deep justifications not final justifications. I have said many times that it is possible to provide reasons for moral positions – just not ultimate ones.
That is just another attempt to have it both ways. The word “deep” suggests that you can justify your position and the word “final” indicates that you cannot. I justify my morality on the grounds that humans have a nature and a purpose. Accordingly, a good act is one which reflects that purpose and a bad act is one which frustrates it. That is a very solid justification. I don’t have to dance through a fog of “deep” vs “final.” If I isn’t final, it isn’t deep.
I was addressing why you practice that morality.
Do you mean what are my motivations? It is the only way to be happy (in this world or the next). Subjectivism does not lead to happiness. It only leads to confusion. Happy people are virtuous peopleStephenB
July 24, 2014
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The challenge: cf 267 above.kairosfocus
July 24, 2014
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Vivid: Ideas have consequences, but the consequences often advance one funeral at a time. That is, the logic takes time, often a generation or a few, to work through. And, I am haunted by Santayana's warning on refusing to learn lessons of history (in a context of having lived through the consequences and collapse of a particularly virulent form of evolutionary materialism up close and personal, Marxism). Where, too often the lessons of History were bought with the most precious currency of all -- blood. KF PS: If MF et al had accused me of being extremely pessimistic, I would say, yes, and for good reason. PPS: I find it interesting that with a straight up challenge on the merits regarding foundational matters on the table, we are seeing various forms of evasion, strawman stereotyping and the drearily familiar like. The matter is simple -- they have a straight up challenge on the merits, so they should answer it.kairosfocus
July 24, 2014
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280 comments, but it still comes down to one side that says you can't have morality without a god, and the other that says this is nonsense. Much of what we call "moral behaviour" is nothing more than the behaviour necessary to live in a social environment. What we have seen over the last century is a slow weeding out of the behaviours based on superstition rather than that needed to survive and thrive in a group situation. In my mind, this is for the good. Although I think that I am in a minority amongst present company.Acartia_bogart
July 24, 2014
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MF
#263 VB If you want to decide if KF thinks he is morally superior to evolutionary materialists I suggest you read what KF writes not what Jesus wrote.
No I dont think so however I certainly can understand why you might think this. I think KF recognizes that ideas have consequences as I am sure you are concerned with as well. What is the logical consequence of an idea? Where does it ultimately lead? These are the things that I think stoke KF's fire. For instance in a prvious thread I said that I thought you and people like you are a danger to science, it was concerning another topic (something coming from nothing> No I dont want to go there and neither do you:) Actually I did you a diservice it is not you that poses a threat it is your ideas that I think poses the threat.I apologize for not making that distinction. However ideas do have logical conclusions and they tend to over time, hundreds of years in some cases, hit that logical destination.Thats what I think KF is addressing and he is not the only one. You see that as "moral superiority" when actually it is concern about the consequences of ideas. MF
Yet again you are failing to understand that subjectivism is a theory about the nature of morality – not a moral principle itself. It holds that no one, including you as a theist, can provide an ultimate justification for your morality.
This is good but unclear. What would be needed in order to provide an ultimate justifiation for morality? You say no one can provide it why is that? Vividvividbleau
July 24, 2014
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Stephenb
You have just described something that defines our common human nature, which would be consistent with my view Human nature is, by definition, objective.. However, you are equivocating again because you don’t really believe that there is any such thing as “human nature” or any such thing as a morality of human nature.
What makes you think I do not believe in human nature? I have gone to some length to explain that is exactly what I think causes us to behave morally. What do you mean the morality of human nature? Do you mean a morality caused by human nature? Or justified by human nature? Or what? I certainly believe our moral behaviour is caused by human nature. As you know I don’t believe there is an ultimate incontrovertible justification for morality – but it doesn't matter so very much because we accept many imperfect justifications as part of our human nature.
You contradicted yourself again by saying “the right thing.”That is a clear reference to objective morality. By contrast, your real philosophy holds that there is no such thing as “the right thing.” The only way a subjectivist can try to make sense is to temporarily abandon his philosophy.
Do we have to go over this all over again?  By “right thing” I mean what I condone with good (but not ultimate) reason.  This is exactly what you mean except you mistakenly think your reason is ultimate.  You can go on telling me that I mean something else but it won’t change that.
The issue is this Are those principles in keeping with our human nature? Are they right for all of us? If they are not right for all of us, then they are not moral principles. They are only arbitrary ideas about how we might behave.
That is a very Kantian idea but it is not a definition of morality it is your idea of what is moral (and one I largely share) - but it is not an ultimate justification and not part of the definition of “moral”.
Again, this is a misuse of words. An individual cannot create his own natural moral law because he cannot create nature. Nature, by definition, precedes him just as the natural moral law precedes him. Accordingly, you cannot reasonably allude to “a” natural moral law. By definition, only “the” natural moral law can exist.
Uh? Please reread what I wrote. I didn’t write anything about creating the natural moral law and I referred to the natural moral law not a natural moral law.
That’s right. Subjectivism cannot be morally justified. It can only be arbitrarily asserted.
I have written repeatedly that subjectivism is a theory about the nature of morality. It is not itself a guide to how to behave morally. It is not the kind of thing that can be justified.  It is simply the assertion that there is no ultimate justification for whatever moral principles you happen to adopt.  Those moral principles will almost certainly be far from arbitrarily asserted although there can be no ultimate justification for them.  I am really running out of ways to explain this. Is it so very hard to understand?
Is that supposed to be a hard question? In this context, good is defined as that which fulfills the purpose of a human being.
Of course if you wish to define “good” as meaning “X” then I can’t quarrel with your assertion that to be good is to be X.  However, it is not the common English use of the word “good” and provides no reason for doing what is “good” in your sense.
If a human being has no purpose, there can be no good. That should be obvious.
I am sorry I don’t find that at all obvious.
What is a good anything? A good can opener is one that opens cans. A good pen is one that writes. If you try to use a pen to open a can, you will fail to open the can and you will ruin the pen. If the pen and the can opener have no purpose, neither can be “good” or “bad” or “right” or “wrong.” They just are. If a human being tries to act like an animal, he will not only fail to achieve his end, he will ruin himself in the process.
You are using “good” in the sense of “effective”. But when we use good in the moral sense we don’t mean that. It is nothing but a rather crude play on words. 
You are repeating yourself. We have already established the point that the subjectivist can provide no rational justification for his philosophy.
Yet again you are failing to understand that subjectivism is a theory about the nature of morality – not a moral principle itself. It holds that no one, including you as a theist, can provide an ultimate justification for your morality. On the other hand most people, including you and I, can provide partial rational justifications.
Yet you have stated that you cannot provide a rational justification for your position.
Yes – that was an error – I should have said deep justifications not final justifications.  I have said many times that it is possible to provide reasons for moral positions – just not ultimate ones.
Once again we must establish the meanings of the words we are using. I practice morality to the extent that I behave in ways that are consistent with my human nature and purpose. If there is no such thing as human nature and purpose, then there can be no such thing as a moral act. In that case, all actions would be amoral and purposeless.
I was addressing why you practice that morality.
So now it is back to “the” moral law. Whatever happened to “a” moral law? What happens is this, Mark: When you describe your philosophy of “a” moral law, the holes in your argument become apparent, so the only solution is for you to temporarily revert back to common sense and acknowledge “the” moral law, until the heat is off, at which time you can, once again, revert back to “a” moral law.
Actually I never referred to “a” moral law at any point! In this case I was assuming that when SA was talking about the natural moral law he was talking about those aspects of human nature that  cause (not justify)us all to be moral to some extent.Mark Frank
July 24, 2014
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Mark,
#269 SA – interesting – your opinions about morality may well be closer to mine than Stephenb’s opinions! You are being misled by his gross caricature of subjectivism.
I think I agree with StephenB because I view subjectivism in the same way. Moral principles are left to the individual to create and there is no accountability or justification from an external source. But I will admit that your explanation is somewhat different from that.
The key word here is “feelings” ... I am talking about deep-seated drivers in our make-up as people which are often shaped at least in part by rational and logical reasoning such as compassion, a desire for justice, and loyalty.
Ok, maybe desires or convictions would sound better than feelings ... but in any case, what you're describing is not just passing emotions. So, that's good. We might call it "conscience". But if the conscience forms a moral standard, which we can't go against without consequences, then there is an ultimate justification here. We see human nature, and moral principles are universal, plus we discover them by feelings (or conscience). This is objective morality. We are accountable to something other than our own arbitrary decisions. There is a standard - in fact, I think you're saying that we don't choose it. The moral standard exists.
For example almost all humans have a deep-seated and permanent desire to limit the suffering of those close to us, culture and logic extends that desire to those we do not know and even to other species. There are similar desires for fairness and the keeping of commitments (such as promises and oaths). Of course we also suffer from drivers to be selfish (and also to value the short term at the cost of the long term) and we have to have the moral courage to overcome these alternative drivers if we are to be moral. That’s no different to your moral philosophy. We all sometimes behave less well than we ought to and struggle to do the right thing.
Since I fully agree with all of that (very nicely explained also), then I think that's a big problem for your position. :-) If we unpack it a bit, there are some issues to look at. Yes, we have a "deep seated" desire. You used a very significant word also: "permanent". I can't imagine how someone could deny this. It's universal in human experience. So, we head along a path. "Culture and logic extends the desire" - it goes beyond ourselves. The same is true with "fairness" - it extends beyond. But then you abruptly cut off this thought-journey. You don't want to "extend" to where logic and culture obviously take us. Can we really argue that spirituality is not a "deep seated human desire", universally present? We see it in morality, clearly. It's obvious. Why not see the same thing in the spiritual longing of mankind? The same is true with our extension of compassion, and especially fairness. If we can extend ourselves to desire justice, why not accept that human life does continue on in the spiritual life? It's not like that is a totally bizarre idea that nobody ever believed before. Again, it's so widespread as to be a "characteristic of human nature itself". We have a moral sense, we also have a spiritual sense and sense of God. Why accept the one and not the others?
Our principles are caused by many things – our genes, culture, upbringing, reasoning and specific life-experiences. Some people on this forum believe they are implanted by God. That is irrelevant. Subjectivism is not about the cause. It is about the justification. It is perfectly consistent to be a subjectivist and adopt the natural moral law as a set of moral principles.
Ok, but I think the act of "adopting" a set of moral principles is a choice. We make that choice for a reason - and you gave some reasons for that already. We could choose all sorts of moral codes. We could choose Islamic ethics, or Catholic ethics, or we could build our own set of moral norms based on some first principles - even on something like hedonism ("I want as much fun as I can get before I die"). Now, if you're saying "we choose a moral code for subjective reasons", ok, sure. But that's a lot different from saying "my moral code itself is subjective". In the one case, you have your own reason for choosing principles which you did not create. You choose to follow God, or to become a Nazi or whatever. In the other case, you make up your own moral norms. The subjectivist in that case is not accountable to an external moral authority.
such a person still has to deal with the response – why is it good to do what God has given or to fulfil the purpose of a human being?
That's the question, yes. "Why is it good?" If there is no ultimate purpose to life, then a person can never know if it is good or not. The only measure of goodness, perhaps, would be some kind of evolutionary "progress" - but we know even that doesn't work because evolution doesn't know or care if we live or die. We can't judge if any of our actions is "good". Should I help a person who is suffering? We don't know. It's possible that helping him will make many things worse - cause more suffering, etc. As a personal note, I think you're importing a lot of your past Christian ideas into your current thought. You're seeing a lot of values and qualities in life that really only make sense in a theistic world, where there is purpose, good and evil, reward and punishment. But the reason it is good to do what God wants is because God is the author and source of all good, and God created us with a purpose. That's why he created the moral norms, and why he wants us to fulfill them. The more we fulfill our true nature as human beings, the more goodness (and therefore happiness) we have. We achieve the purpose of our life. Evil is that which takes away from our being -- immorality goes against our nature and our fulfillment. God made it that way since he is also the author of all being and the fullness of being.
Why does it need a purpose?
Moral norms need a purpose because we make rational decisions to follow them, sometimes at a great cost. Again, its a question of choice. How do we know that we should not fight against our moral nature? We could say that there are bad consequences or we feel bad, but why are those accurate indicators of what we should do? If the moral code has a purpose, then we know it directs us to what is good.
That may be the key difference between us. On the far too few occasions when I am moral I do so because of those deep-seated drivers acting in this life on earth. Stephenb would suggest he is only moral because of something external which will reward or punish him in the after-life. (Actually I am sure he is a decent chap who would be quite prepared to throw the natural law out of the window if confronted by a large claim on this compassion which was inconsistent with it)
I don't think it's fair to Stephen to say "the only" reason he acts morally is for a future reward. Plus, if he did throw away a law, it would be for a higher law of compassion, for example. But more importantly, it wouldn't seem right that you'd do a moral act simply because there are deep-seated drivers in you. This would mean that you really didn't make a decision. But we don't view life that way. When a person makes a courageous moral act, we know it took some effort. It was a decision based on thoughts - justified by a moral sense. Now you might say "I don't act morally for a reward or fear of punishment", but it doesn't seem that way, see the following ...
SA: What really happens when we go against the moral law that is built into us. Yes, we have bad feelings but is there something more to it that that? MF: Quite a lot of bad things in addition to feeling badly about it. Loss of respect from others. No reasonable argument against those who would do us harm. Weakening of moral behaviour in others as we set a bad example. And so on.
It seems to me that these are reasons for acting morally. They're negative consequences. The opposite are rewards. "I didn't do that so I could retain respect from my friends". That's a reward for good behavior. "If I did that, I would give a bad example" ... that's fear of negative consequences (punishment). That's pretty basic and, again, universal in human life. But what about when nobody is looking? What about "when I can get away with it"? Sometimes we won't lose respect and we won't be a bad example. Sometimes, doing the moral thing causes us to lose respect and be considered a bad person. So this is where we're looking to a higher authority -- something more than public opinion or sometimes even more than the opinion of friends and family. So that's where subjectivism doesn't make sense. We're answering to something outside of ourselves. We're being judged, not by public opinion but by a spiritual value. That's what our conscience is pointing to.Silver Asiatic
July 24, 2014
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Mark
It is perfectly consistent to be a subjectivist and adopt the natural moral law as a set of moral principles.
No it isn't. The natural moral, which law binds everyone, is inconsistent with subjectivism, which binds no one.StephenB
July 24, 2014
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"In fact, given evolutionary materialism, what is the point of arguing for or against anything?" There doesn't need to be a point. Illustration: Every single post of yours and KF's, ever.LarTanner
July 24, 2014
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Mung: WJM of this blog put it in a real keeper, I slightly adapt:
If you do not acknowledge the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not admit the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not recognise libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not accept morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.
But, mouth noises are useful for manipulation, no . . . ? KFkairosfocus
July 24, 2014
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F/N: More on peer pressure from Wiki:
An explanation of how the peer pressure process works, called "the identity shift effect", is introduced by social psychologist, Wendy Treynor, who weaves together Leon Festinger's two seminal social-psychological theories (on cognitive dissonance, which addresses internal conflict, and social comparison, which addresses external conflict) into a unified whole. According to Treynor's original "identity shift effect" hypothesis, the peer pressure process works in the following way: One's state of harmony is disrupted when faced with the threat of external conflict (social rejection) for failing to conform to a group standard. Thus, one conforms to the group standard, but as soon as one does, eliminating this external conflict, internal conflict is introduced (because one has violated one's own standards). To rid oneself of this internal conflict (self-rejection), an "identity shift" is undertaken, where one adopts the group's standards as one's own, thereby eliminating internal conflict (in addition to the formerly eliminated external conflict), returning one once again to a state of harmony. Even though the peer pressure process begins and ends with one in a (conflict-less) state of harmony, as a result of conflict and the conflict resolution process, one leaves with a new identity—a new set of internalized standards.[14]
Sounds familiar? Mix in desensitisation through glamourising and drumming in the formerly outrageous and outliandish. Add, jamming out of those few lone voices in the wilderness who dare object or say the Emperor is only pretending to be wearing gorgeous robes, and see how soon we have conversion -- even mass conversions. Hey presto, early C21 society just swum into sharp focus. KFkairosfocus
July 24, 2014
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kf @ 267, 268. Well said. In fact, given evolutionary materialism, what is the point of arguing for or against anything? Imo, they should just keep their mouths shut except to eat.Mung
July 24, 2014
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Mark
The key word here is “feelings”. That suggests something temporary, whimsical and without logical justification – as theists are fond of putting it – like our taste in ice-cream. I am talking about deep-seated drivers in our make-up as people which are often shaped at least in part by rational and logical reasoning such as compassion, a desire for justice, and loyalty.
You have just described something that defines our common human nature, which would be consistent with my view Human nature is, by definition, objective.. However, you are equivocating again because you don’t really believe that there is any such thing as “human nature” or any such thing as a morality of human nature.
For example almost all humans have a deep-seated and permanent desire to limit the suffering of those close to us, culture and logic extends that desire to those we do not know and even to other species It is their “nature” to be that way. There are similar desires for fairness and the keeping of commitments (such as promises and oaths). Of course we also suffer from drivers to be selfish (and also to value the short term at the cost of the long term) and we have to have the moral courage to overcome these alternative drivers if we are to be moral. That’s no different to your moral philosophy. We all sometimes behave less well than we ought to and struggle to do the right thing.
You contradicted yourself again by saying “the right thing.”That is a clear reference to objective morality. By contrast, your real philosophy holds that there is no such thing as “the right thing.” The only way a subjectivist can try to make sense is to temporarily abandon his philosophy.
You are concerned about where moral codes come from. “Moral code” suggests a book of rules. Will you settle for moral principles? Our principles are caused by many things – our genes, culture, upbringing, reasoning and specific life-experiences.
The issue is this Are those principles in keeping with our human nature? Are they right for all of us? If they are not right for all of us, then they are not moral principles. They are only arbitrary ideas about how we might behave.
Some people on this forum believe they are implanted by God. That is irrelevant. Subjectivism is not about the cause. It is about the justification. It is perfectly consistent to be a subjectivist and adopt the natural moral law as a set of moral principles.
Again, this is a misuse of words. An individual cannot create his own natural moral law because he cannot create nature. Nature, by definition, precedes him just as the natural moral law precedes him. Accordingly, you cannot reasonably allude to “a” natural moral law. By definition, only “the” natural moral law can exist.
What subjectivism is saying is that whatever principles you adopt and whatever the cause of you doing that – there is no ultimate justification.
That’s right. Subjectivism cannot be morally justified. It can only be arbitrarily asserted.
The theist might end up saying they are god-given or fulfil the ultimate purpose of a human being – but such a person still has to deal with the response – why is it good to do what God has given or to fulfil the purpose of a human being?
Is that supposed to be a hard question? In this context, good is defined as that which fulfills the purpose of a human being. If a human being has no purpose, there can be no good. That should be obvious. What is a good anything? A good can opener is one that opens cans. A good pen is one that writes. If you try to use a pen to open a can, you will fail to open the can and you will ruin the pen. If the pen and the can opener have no purpose, neither can be “good” or “bad” or “right” or “wrong.” They just are. If a human being tries to act like an animal, he will not only fail to achieve his end, he will ruin himself in the process.
The subjectivist recognises that in the end you have no further recourse but to simply to say that is what I deeply believe to be right and wrong (and if you disagree then we are fundamentally different types of creature).
You are repeating yourself. We have already established the point that the subjectivist can provide no rational justification for his philosophy.
But in practice it is almost always possible to take the debate forward by finding some principles or situations on which we agree and working from there.
The problem is over those things about which we disagree.
We are talking about final justifications not spur of the moment fancies.
Yet you have stated that you cannot provide a rational justification for your position.
Stephenb would suggest he is only moral because of something external which will reward or punish him in the after-life. (Actually I am sure he is a decent chap who would be quite prepared to throw the natural law out of the window if confronted by a large claim on this compassion which was inconsistent with it)
Once again we must establish the meanings of the words we are using. I practice morality to the extent that I behave in ways that are consistent with my human nature and purpose. If there is no such thing as human nature and purpose, then there can be no such thing as a moral act. In that case, all actions would be amoral and purposeless.
What really happens when we go against the moral law that is built into us. Yes, we have bad feelings but is there something more to it that that?
So now it is back to “the” moral law. Whatever happened to “a” moral law? What happens is this, Mark: When you describe your philosophy of “a” moral law, the holes in your argument become apparent, so the only solution is for you to temporarily revert back to common sense and acknowledge “the” moral law, until the heat is off, at which time you can, once again, revert back to “a” moral law.StephenB
July 24, 2014
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Mark to SA
The key word here is “feelings”. That suggests something temporary, whimsical and without logical justification – as theists are fond of putting it – like our taste in ice-cream. I am talking about deep-seated drivers in our make-up as people which are often shaped at least in part by rational and logical reasoning such as compassion, a desire for justice, and loyalty.
You have just described something that defines our common human nature, which would be consistent with my view. Human nature is, by definition, objective. However, you are equivocating again because you don’t really believe that there is any such thing as “human nature” or any such thing as the morality of human nature.
For example almost all humans have a deep-seated and permanent desire to limit the suffering of those close to us, culture and logic extends that desire to those we do not know and even to other species It is their “nature” to be that way. There are similar desires for fairness and the keeping of commitments (such as promises and oaths). Of course we also suffer from drivers to be selfish (and also to value the short term at the cost of the long term) and we have to have the moral courage to overcome these alternative drivers if we are to be moral. That’s no different to your moral philosophy. We all sometimes behave less well than we ought to and struggle to do the right thing.
You contradicted yourself again by saying “the right thing.”That is a clear reference to objective morality. By contrast, your real philosophy holds that there is no such thing as “the right thing.” The only way a subjectivist can try to make sense is to temporarily abandon his philosophy.
You are concerned about where moral codes come from. “Moral code” suggests a book of rules. Will you settle for moral principles? Our principles are caused by many things – our genes, culture, upbringing, reasoning and specific life-experiences.
The issue is this Are those principles in keeping with our human nature? Are they right for all of us? If they are not right for all of us, then they are not moral principles. They are only arbitrary ideas about how some of us might behave.
Some people on this forum believe they are implanted by God. That is irrelevant. Subjectivism is not about the cause. It is about the justification. It is perfectly consistent to be a subjectivist and adopt the natural moral law as a set of moral principles.
Again, this is a misuse of words. An individual cannot create his own natural moral law because he cannot create nature. Nature, by definition, precedes him just as the natural moral law precedes him. Accordingly, you cannot reasonably allude to “a” natural moral law. By definition, only “the” natural moral law can exist.
What subjectivism is saying is that whatever principles you adopt and whatever the cause of you doing that – there is no ultimate justification.
That’s right. Subjectivism cannot be rationally or morally justified. It can only be arbitrarily asserted.
The theist might end up saying they are god-given or fulfil the ultimate purpose of a human being – but such a person still has to deal with the response – why is it good to do what God has given or to fulfil the purpose of a human being? Is that supposed to be a hard question? In this context, good is defined as that which fulfills the purpose of a human being and is consistent with his nature. If a human being has no purpose, there can be no such thing as a "good" act. That should be obvious. What is a good anything? A good can opener is one that opens cans. A good pen is one that writes. Can a pen be a good can opener. No. If you try to use a pen to open a can, you will fail to open the can and you will ruin the pen. If the pen and the can opener have no purpose, neither can either of them be “good” or “bad” or “right” or “wrong.” They just are. Morality for humans defines those acts that are consistent with their nature and purpose. If a human being forget his nature and tries to act like an animal, he will not only fail to achieve his end, he will ruin himself in the process.
The subjectivist recognises that in the end you have no further recourse but to simply to say that is what I deeply believe to be right and wrong (and if you disagree then we are fundamentally different types of creature).
You are repeating yourself. We have already established the point that the subjectivist can provide no rational justification for his philosophy.
But in practice it is almost always possible to take the debate forward by finding some principles or situations on which we agree and working from there.
The problem is over those things about which we disagree. We are talking about final justifications not spur of the moment fancies.
Yet you have stated that you cannot provide a rational justification
Stephenb would suggest he is only moral because of something external which will reward or punish him in the after-life.
Once again we must establish the meanings of the words we are using. I practice morality to the extent that I behave in ways that are consistent with my human nature and purpose. If there is no such thing as human nature and purpose, then there can be no such thing as a moral act. In that case, all actions would be amoral and purposeless.
StephenB
July 24, 2014
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#269 SA – interesting – your opinions about morality may well be closer to mine than Stephenb’s opinions!  You are being misled by his gross caricature of subjectivism. The key word here is “feelings”. That suggests something temporary, whimsical and without logical justification – as theists are fond of putting it – like our taste in ice-cream.  I am talking about deep-seated drivers in our make-up as people which are often shaped at least in part by rational and logical reasoning such as compassion, a desire for justice, and loyalty. For example almost all humans have a deep-seated and permanent desire to limit the suffering  of those close to us, culture and logic extends that desire to those we do not know and even to other species. There are similar desires for fairness and the keeping of commitments (such as promises and oaths). Of course we also suffer from drivers to be selfish (and also to value the short term at the cost of the long term) and we have to have the moral courage to overcome these alternative drivers if we are to be moral. That’s no different to your moral philosophy. We all sometimes behave less well than we ought to and struggle to do the right thing. You are concerned about where moral codes come from. “Moral code” suggests a book of rules. Will you settle for moral principles? Our principles are caused by many things – our genes, culture, upbringing, reasoning and specific life-experiences.  Some people on this forum believe they are implanted by God.  That is irrelevant.  Subjectivism is not about the cause. It is about the justification. It is perfectly consistent to be a subjectivist and adopt the natural moral law as a set of moral principles.  What subjectivism is saying is that whatever principles you adopt and whatever the cause of you doing that – there is no ultimate justification.  If you keep on challenging your principles eventually you run out of justifications.  The theist might end up saying they are god-given or fulfil the ultimate purpose of a human being – but such a person still has to deal with the response –  why is it good to do what God has given or to fulfil the purpose of a human being?  The subjectivist recognises that  in the end you have no further recourse but to simply to say that is what I deeply believe to be right and wrong (and if you disagree then we are fundamentally different types of creature).  But in practice it is almost always possible to take the debate forward by finding some principles or situations on which we agree and working from there. We are talking about final justifications not spur of the moment fancies.
Ok, I think what you said is perfectly consistent with a belief in an objective, natural moral law. We look at “the moral aspects of human nature” and discover certain norms that virtually all humans accept. I think this goes against the idea that our morals come from our personal feelings though. In fact, I think you’re pointing to an objective moral code, based on what we find in human nature, and not a subjective one. If we choose an action because “it’s the truly human thing to do”, then the code that is built into our nature forms the moral standard.
This more or less expresses what I am trying to say. Following by good questions.
Also, what purpose does it serve?
Why does it need a purpose?
I think it’s also very clear that in the majority of human life we see the moral law pointing to recompense – justice, which cannot be realized in this life. Can we totally reject notions of spirituality and after-life while at the same time accepting that humans have a moral nature?
Absolutely.  That may be the key difference between us.  On the far too few occasions when I am moral I do so because of those deep-seated drivers acting in this life on earth. Stephenb would suggest he is only moral because of something external which will reward or punish him in the after-life. (Actually I am sure he is a decent chap who would be quite prepared to throw the natural law out of the window if confronted by a large claim on this compassion which was inconsistent with it)
What really happens when we go against the moral law that is built into us. Yes, we have bad feelings but is there something more to it that that?
Quite a lot of bad things in addition to feeling badly about it. Loss of respect from others. No reasonable argument against those who would do us harm. Weakening of moral behaviour in others as we set a bad example. And so on.Mark Frank
July 24, 2014
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#264 Mark, thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate your explanation.
Subjectivism is not a choice about how to conduct yourself morally. It is a philosophical theory about what is going on when people behave morally.
I've been interpreting subjectivism as the idea that each person establishes his/her own moral norms. So, morality is what one creates for oneself, versus the idea that moral norms are external to the person. But I can see your view on it also. The key word above is 'choice'. That's really what morality comes down to.
As a subjectivist I believe that everybody’s moral behaviour is at core based on their personal feelings – that includes you, Stephenb, and KF.
Following on the above - morality is about choice. In this case, it appears that subjectivism has us choosing to follow our feelings. But clearly, we often have to choose against our feelings. That's what moral courage is all about -- choosing against fear or the desire for comfort. But that's kind of beside the point. Eventually, the subjectivist either has to have a moral code or else morality is just some shifting sense of following one's feelings. If it's a moral code, where does it come from? In my view, it is created by the subjectivist for the subjectivist. If it's just shifting ideas based on what one is feeling at any moment, then there are no consistent moral norms. I guess, at the heart of what you believe is the notion that one's feelings are something stable, clear and certain enough upon which to base a moral standard. I think experience shows, though, that feelings change change rapidly and they're often not an accurate indicator of the truth of things. Fear, for example, can cause strange thinking. When a moral norm is fixed and external to the person ("God does not want me to do this") -- then feelings have to be fought-against. Fear, desire for pleasure, greed, lust, anger ... these are all common feelings. When the moral law is fixed though, we strive to overcome those feelings.
But I have concluded that in the end those standards cannot be deduced from some ultimate foundation – they are based on the moral aspects of human nature and while the vast majority of humans have a lot in common when it comes to their moral nature there are significant differences for which there is no ultimate way of deciding.
Ok, I think what you said is perfectly consistent with a belief in an objective, natural moral law. We look at "the moral aspects of human nature" and discover certain norms that virtually all humans accept. I think this goes against the idea that our morals come from our personal feelings though. In fact, I think you're pointing to an objective moral code, based on what we find in human nature, and not a subjective one. If we choose an action because "it's the truly human thing to do", then the code that is built into our nature forms the moral standard. If we choose the action that with no intention to comply with an external standard, then that is subjectivist. We do it for our own reason -- and our reasons can change based on the situation or our feelings at that moment. When we discover the natural moral law and use it as a moral standard, I think we have to wonder where it came from. Also, what purpose does it serve? I think it's also very clear that in the majority of human life we see the moral law pointing to recompense - justice, which cannot be realized in this life. Can we totally reject notions of spirituality and after-life while at the same time accepting that humans have a moral nature? What really happens when we go against the moral law that is built into us. Yes, we have bad feelings but is there something more to it that that?Silver Asiatic
July 24, 2014
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F/N: Let me clip FTR, using Wikipedia testifying against interest for convenience (though my awareness of the issues long predates the existence of the WWW): Cognitive Dissonance: >> In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the excessive mental stress and discomfort[1] experienced by an individual who (1) holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time or (2) is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values. This stress and discomfort may also arise within an individual who holds a belief and performs a contradictory action or reaction.[2] Leon Festinger's theory of cognitive dissonance focuses on how humans strive for internal consistency. When inconsistency (dissonance) is experienced, individuals largely become psychologically distressed. His basic hypotheses are listed below: "The existence of dissonance, being psychologically uncomfortable, will motivate the person to try to reduce the dissonance and achieve consonance" "When dissonance is present, in addition to trying to reduce it, the person will actively avoid situations and information which would likely increase the dissonance"[1] . . . . Cognitive dissonance theory is founded on the assumption that individuals seek consistency between their expectations and their reality. Because of this, people engage in a process called dissonance reduction to bring their cognitions and actions in line with one another. This creation of uniformity allows for a lessening of psychological tension and distress. According to Festinger, dissonance reduction can be achieved in four ways:[1] Attitude: "I am going on a diet and will avoid high fat food" Behavior: Eating a doughnut or some other high fat food 1. Change behavior/cognition (Ex: Stop eating the doughnut) 2. Justify behavior/cognition by changing the conflicting cognition (Ex: "I'm allowed to cheat every once in a while") 3. Justify behavior/cognition by adding new cognitions (Ex: "I'll spend 30 extra minutes at the gym to work it off") 4. Ignore/Deny any information that conflicts with existing beliefs (Ex: "I did not eat that donut. I always eat healthy.") >> Peer pressure: >> Peer pressure is influence that a peer group, observers or individual exerts that encourages others to change their attitudes, values, or behaviors to conform the group norms. Social groups affected include membership groups, in which individuals are "formally" members (such as political parties and trade unions), or social cliques in which membership is not clearly defined. They may also recognize dissociative groups with which they would not wish to associate, and thus they behave adversely, in ways concerning that group's behaviors . . . . Peer conformity in young people is most pronounced with respect to style, taste, appearance, ideology, and values.[3] Peer pressure is commonly associated with episodes of adolescent risk taking (such as delinquency, drug abuse, sexual behaviours,[4] and reckless driving) because these activities commonly occur in the company of peers.[2] Affiliation with friends who engage in risk behaviors has been shown to be a strong predictor of an adolescent's own behavior.[5] Peer pressure can also have positive effects when youth are pressured by their peers toward positive behaviour, such as volunteering for charity [6] or excelling in academics.[7] The importance of peers declines upon entering adulthood.[8] [--> I suggest, rather, that the pressure to conform becomes more subtle] . . . . The Third Wave was an experiment to demonstrate the appeal of fascism undertaken by history teacher Ron Jones with sophomore high school students attending his Contemporary History as part of a study of Nazi Germany. The experiment took place at Cubberley High School in Palo Alto, California, during the first week of April 1967. Jones, unable to explain to his students how the German populace could claim ignorance of the extermination of the Jewish people, decided to show them instead. Jones started a movement called "The Third Wave" and convinced his students that the movement is to eliminate democracy. The fact that democracy emphasizes individuality was considered as a drawback of democracy, and Jones emphasized this main point of the movement in its motto: "Strength through discipline, strength through community, strength through action, strength through pride". The Third Wave experiment is an example of risk behavior in authoritarian peer pressure situations.[10][11] It is one useful tool in leadership. Instead of direct delegation of tasks and results demanding, employees are in this case, induced into a behaviour of self-propelled performance and innovation, by comparison feelings towards their peers. There are several ways peer pressure can be induced in a working environment. Examples include training and team meetings. In training, the team member is in contact with people with comparable roles in other organizations. In team meetings, there is an implicit comparison between every team member, especially if the meeting agenda is to present results and goal status.[12] >> Something tells me some bells should be ringing now. KFkairosfocus
July 24, 2014
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MF: With all due respect, this is now a well-poisoning game. You full well know that you have long studiously taken the stance NOT to read what I have written, doubtless preferring to read those who maliciously frame me the better to well poison. That's sad, and it should stop. Now, you know that I disagree with evolutionary materialism, holding it -- along with some fairly distinguished company starting with Plato in The Laws Bk X 360 BC -- inescapably self referentially incoherent and unable to ground either a credible, knowing mind or morality. I do so for cause, let me again cite Haldane, a leading light of the Neo-Darwinian synthesis, for an in a nutshell:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
. . . and Wm Provine in his U Tenn. 1998 Darwin Day keynote speech:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .
I take these to be quite clear admissions against interest on the record. In the former case, we see a distancing from the implications of lab coat clad evolutionary materialism. In the second, we see an outright admission that never mind the lab coats evolutionary materialism has no foundational IS that bears the weight of OUGHT. When this is compounded by the declaration that responsible rational freedom is dead, killed by drowning in a sea of blind chance and mechanical necessity, this is immediately an erasure of moral responsibility (which he then tries to put in a favourable light by pretending to penal reform, apparently not realising C S Lewis' warning on where turning prison into compulsory "therapy" at the hands of powers whose moral basis has been undermined leads). He also inadvertently undermines mind, as without freedom to choose reasonably, rational contemplation is dead. But, as I recently argued, that is a necessary consequence of trying to collapse rational contemplation into blindly mechanical computational processing in some architecture or another. I have argued -- again, in a tradition that traces back to Plato -- evo mat therefore inherently opens the door to those who manipulate based on undermining of both. If I am actually wrong, it would be quite easy to refute me. First, show how mind emerges from meat and escapes the GIGO-driven computation vs contemplation gap. Otherwise evo mat thinkers will be trying to get North by going West. Second, show the evo mat worldview foundation IS that grounds OUGHT as the principle of moral government, without reducing to amoral, nihilism-inviting absurdities such as might and manipulation make 'right' and 'truth.' At this stage, after several years, it is quite clear that there are no sound answers to these two challenges forthcoming from Evo Mat advocates. Otherwise, they would have long since made them and such would be trumpeted from the rooftops, would be in every web discussion, and would be in every textbook. I will only touch on the further point that per both reliable and widely tested empirical observation and analysis of blind search of configuration spaces, FSCO/I -- functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information -- is a highly reliable sign of design as pivotal causal factor. Which points to the origin and body plan level diversity of cell based life as crucially tracing to design (though, as has been on the record since Thaxton et al in the early 1980's, this is consistent with an advanced molecular nanotech lab and does not in itself necessitate design of life by intelligence beyond the observed cosmos), and also the fine tuned physics of our cosmos that so obviously sets the stage for cell based life. (This last obviously does point to a designer of tremendous knowledge, power and skill beyond our cosmos.) I hardly need to say how, as insistent policy sustained in the teeth of abundant evidence and direct correction, this design view has been willfully, even maliciously and consistently caricatured by many who should know better. NCSE et al and "Creationists in cheap tuxedos" etc come easily to mind. Sir, with all due respect, that pattern marks moral bankruptcy at movement level among anti-ID activists. For pointing out such, as you know, I and others have been made a target by outright hate and slander sites run by people you have chosen to hang with elsewhere; including people pursuing outing tactics against my family whom I have reason to believe . . . shared with the police FYI . . . may be unhinged and potentially violent. As should be very evident from what they have been doing. I have stood up to that, especially when ugly mafioso-style threats were made against uninvolved family including minor children and other relatives who have not the slightest involvement. Which, BTW, is intellectual hostage-taking: we know where you and those you care about are and we can hurt them, in crude and subtle ways, not least by trying to make sure that a web search will come up with dog whistle or outright red flag signals. You and yours will not get into OUR institutions, buster. Or, have you forgotten, MF, the notorious slaughter of the dissidents? Perhaps, my memory fails but I cannot recall any time when you have stood up to such ugly tactics among those on your side [I can at least say a bit better for EL, though she has fallen into enabling behaviour]. But then, what is really being insinuated above, is a subject-switching strawman caricature designed to divert discussion to the theme KF is a pretended morally superior hypocrite, isn't it: to analyse morals and mind in a way that looks to the reality of OUGHT and its requiring a grounding IS that bears its weight, is now being twisted into a caricatured claim to moral superiority. FYI, FTR, and as has been on record in core Christian teachings since Ep. Rom 57 AD, the basic point is that we ARE morally governed with the voice of conscience, as a deposit of our nature, so regardless of worldview we will have moral insights. However, such can be distorted and manipulated for instance through cognitive dissonance and linked peer pressures -- the point that obviously provoked this latest wave of personalities as seen above, which you decided to pile on with. Where also the same classic Christian text explicitly undermines any and all pretence to moral superiority, including all of us as sinners. On that subject, since you demand it: as a twelve year old boy, I publicly, in tears, identified myself as a guilty sinner a just subject of God's wrath. I have had no reason to change that opinion of myself since, any moral growth I have had the blessing to have had is by grace through penitent faith and not in accord with my just desserts. Where, a fair assessment is, I have been a particularly difficult case for grace to work on. But if Paul, the self-confessed worst of sinners is among the chief trophies of transforming grace, there is hope for me yet. But, all of that is off on a red herring side track, led away to ad hominem soaked strawman caricatures set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere. The central, pivotal, worldview foundational issues that we are ever so prone to get distracted from are right there, still needing a sound answer from the evo mat side. I therefore ask you, please, please, please -- more is at stake than you imagine -- rethink the moral and intellectual consequences of evolutionary materialism. And yes, the ongoing holocaust of 50+ million unborn babies killed in the USA and hundreds of millions globally across the past generation under false colour of law empowered by the most flimsy excuses, is one of the most telling cases in point. It is capital proof, if we needed one, of how we have arrived at a high-tech neo-barbarian, morally bankrupt moral dark age and need to stop and think hard lest we take the world over a cliff. Poison the well (I here point, again to the New Atheism movement that lies behind so much of the approach we have seen in recent years) and fault-find or caricature or ridicule the messenger (the list is long, let's just point to the penumbra of attack sites that surround UD etc) tactics are not going to soundly address that challenge. There is a serious worldview foundational issue on the table, let us take it seriously and address it on the merits. I trust that we can now lay aside toxic tactics and return to a focus on the merits. I will, finally, say this for myself. I have spoken, fundamentally, out of a sense of duty to the truth and the right, not out of any pretence to have cornered the market on either. And, we can all then see for ourselves the real balance on the merits: a: If I am grossly misinformed and in blatant error, it will be easy for MF et al to correct, deriving mind from meat and finding a materialistic foundational IS that grounds OUGHT without absurdity. b: If there is no sound materialist answer at a, the implication will emerge from absence of such an answer. c: If this is studiously ignored, silence will speak louder than words can. d: if instead, we see further well-poisoning, twisting, caricaturing and studious obfuscation, that too will speak by what it implies . . . no answer on the merits let us shoot at the messenger. KF PS: Onlookers, on this specific matter you may wish to read here on to see what I have actually had to say, in outline at 101 level.kairosfocus
July 24, 2014
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#265 correction "I suggest you read what KF writes not what Jesus said."Mark Frank
July 24, 2014
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#263 VB If you want to decide if KF thinks he is morally superior to evolutionary materialists I suggest you read what KF writes not what Jesus wrote.Mark Frank
July 23, 2014
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#256 SA
Subjectivists create moral norms for themselves. They don’t look to comply with a moral standard outside of their own. In order to create moral norms for themselves, they had to change them. At one time they didn’t have the norm, and then later they did.
Whether they changed the norm to justify behavior is irrelevant since the very same person who created the norm, is the person who justifies, rewards or condemns.
Subjectivism is  not a choice about how to conduct yourself morally.  It is a philosophical theory about what is going on when people behave morally.  As a subjectivist I believe that everybody’s moral behaviour is at core based on their personal feelings – that includes you, Stephenb, and KF.  You just don’t realise it because you haven’t thought it through (I don’t blame you. It is hard. It has taken me 40 years to be completely clear about it).  So, just like you, I have moral standards which have a lot in common with yours and partially arise from my Christian heritage.  Like you, and all theists, I have been guilty of interpreting those standards in a way that is “convenient” for what I want to do for other reasons. That is weakness of the will. We all suffer from it.  But I have concluded that in the end those standards cannot be deduced from some ultimate foundation – they are based on the moral aspects of human nature and while the vast majority of humans have a lot in common when it comes to their moral nature there are significant differences for which there is no ultimate way of deciding.Mark Frank
July 23, 2014
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DK KF:
God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers…
What a cheap shot. Obviously you do not understand the Christian gospel. It is not KF that thinks he is better than you it is exactly the other way around. One of the most profound sayings of Jesus refers to this very thing. Jesus never had issues with "sinners". The only time we read about Him being angry was when He was dealing with the religious and self righteous . You see He says that He did not come for the healthy rather He came for the sick. I am sure KF would agree that because we are sick, we are "sinners" we need to rely on the righteousness of another. No no it is not KF who thinks he is more righteous than you it is the exact opposite . Vividvividbleau
July 23, 2014
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SA & SB: I think there is a sampler here. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2014
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DK: FYI, FTR to point out that genuine faith requires penitence and that it has a track record of laying a basis for resistance to the slide down the cliff is not to pretend to sinless perfection. All I can do beyond that is again invite you to rethink on a sounder basis. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2014
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Great post, StephenB.
J Budziszewski
I read his "What we can't not know" just recently. Truly superb.Silver Asiatic
July 23, 2014
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Silver Asiatic
Ok, but I don’t think one can arrive at the just war theory from the objective moral law and reason alone. It’s a set of moral norms that is highly informed by Christian revelation. From a Catholic view also, for example, it’s not part of defined moral teaching – it’s still somewhat speculative. The objective moral law cannot be that specific and make subtle distinctions. It just gives the “moral basics” which can guide any person who doesn’t have religious revelation.
Good. Yes, I agree with you on mpst points: Granted, the objective moral law alone cannot suffice, because it is too general to cover the more complicated moral issues. It must be used on concert with reason, and is, as it turns out, inextricably tied to reason. Granted, the more explicit expression of the natural moral law is revealed in the Christian scriptures, as we find in the Ten Commandments and other places. I would hasten to add, though, that the natural moral law is, as J Budziszewski reminds us, built in to the deep structure of the human intellect, though it is incomplete and less explicit than revealed truths. The natural moral law is just that: it is about human nature and not about human constructs or social conventions. Yes, revealed truths can illuminate it and make it more explicit, but it exists independent of divine revelation. This point dramatizes the poverty of the subjectivist position. Advocates of reason and the natural moral law recognize two obvious facts: there are some things that they want to do and shouldn't do, and there are some things that they should do and do not want to do. Accordingly, they can exercise discipline and make sacrifices to bridge the gap between where they are and where they ought to be. Among other things they can learn to acquire virtues and rid themselves of vices. Subjectivists cannot make this moral calculation because their code is based on feelings and personal convenience. They cannot distinguish a good impulse from a bad impulse. Good and bad mean nothing to them. Accordingly, virtues are likely to be undeveloped and vices are likely to be left uncorrected. For them, there is no gap between where they are and where they ought to be because, for them, there is no "ought to be."StephenB
July 23, 2014
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KF: God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers...Daniel King
July 23, 2014
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DK & MF: Perhaps, you have overlooked or forgotten the well-known known impact of cognitive dissonance whereby it pulls attitudes to track behaviour that may at first be quite uncomfortable? Including also the well known pattern of the benumbed conscience? As well as the problem of social support and peer pressure? These and linked concerns that can degrade moral praxis and behaviour of individuals, families, organisation members and communities are well known and often quite problematic, so I find your dismissive rhetoric about "rhetoric" quite out of place. The truth is, evolutionary materialism has in it no foundational IS capable of bearing the weight of ought AND a 2350 year old on the record history of degradation of moral behaviour, leading to sobering concerns for at least that long. Further, in our day, the aggressive new atheists have spent the past decade on a global well-poisoning initiative targetting especially the Judaeo-Christian theistic tradition, which through the hundreds of years of examples of prophets, reformers, confessors and martyrs, has a strong tradition of moral upliftment and peaceful resistance to entrenched evils, equipping people with the moral fibre to stand against the tide. I think you should pause and think about the pattern of dots you are inviting us to connect, in an age where in the early 1970's ever so many had qualms about the rising tide of the ongoing abortion holocaust but were led through the same forces above, to turn around to supporting flimsy slogans about choice and reproductive rights. As a result of the overall pattern we have an ongoing holocaust that has cost hundreds of millions of unborn children their lives in this past generation, and has benumbed the consciences of a generation in a sea of bloodguilt. That such an age is proceeding now to dismantle marriage and family, and worse, is no great surprise. I tremble for our civilisation. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2014
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