Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Everything You Believe Is Based on Personal Experience and Testimony

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In other threads, certain people have claimed that personal experience and testimony are not as valid as other forms of evidence. In fact, some would dismiss thousands of years and the accumulation of perhaps billions of witness/experiencer testimonies because, in their view, personal experience and testimony is not really even evidence at all.

The problem with this position is that everything one knows and or believes is gained either through  (1) personal experience (and extrapolation thereof), or (2) testimony (and examination thereof), for the simple fact that if you did not experience X, the only information you can possibly have about X is from the testimony of others.

In a courtroom, for example, the entire case depends on testimony, even when there is physical evidence, because the jury relies upon the testimony of those that produce and explain what the physical evidence is, how it is relevant, and explains why it is important to the case. Unless the jurors are swabbing cheeks and conducting DNA tests themselves, the DNA evidence is in principle nothing more than the testimony of an expert witness. The jurors have no means of ascertaining the DNA “facts” for themselves; they entirely rely upon the testimony of what they assume to be a highly credible witness.

When a gun is entered into evidence, it is a meaningless fact – it’s a gun. The jurors rely entirely upon the testimony of law officers to inform them where the gun was found, if it was the right caliber, who owned it, etc. All of that information is presented through testimony.

Further, establishing motive and opportunity are forms of logical arguments, established via testimony, which counts as evidence.

Similarly, unless one is a research scientist in fields where one believes certain theories to be valid, he is (and we are as well) entirely dependent upon testimonial evidence – found in the form of research papers, books and articles written by such scientists. “Peer review” is nothing more to the reader than the testimomy of supposedly credible sources that the testimony of the authors is not blatantly false or contain factual errors.

Outside of what we personally experience, virtually all of our knowledge comes from testimony delivered via some form of media or another. We consider the source of the testimony, and the media it is delivered through, credible or non-credible to one degree or another – but that doesn’t change the fact that when we read or hear it, it is nothing more than testimony. If you are a scientist conducting research, you are personally experiencing the process and accumulation of data.  Beyond that, it is only testimony to others unless they perform the same experiments.  Often, the conclusions of scientific research hinge upon the testimony of other researchers, which may turn out to be fraudulent or mistaken.

So, when anyone says that testimony and personal experience are dismissible forms of evidence, they are obviously using (consciously or not) selective (and logically incoherent) hyperskepticism against an unwanted idea, because everything any of us believe or call ‘knowledge” is gained/extrapolated (hopefully using logic and logical arguments) via personal experience and/or information gained via testimony.

Comments
Joe #116 So Jerad refuses to answer my question. Typical. Jerad is too stupid to understand my explanations. Typical. Jerad thinks his stupidity and ignorance is an argument. Typical. I guess we'll leave it at that then. I think my request for you to give us a specific example of an expectation of intelligent design evolution and then show how an algorithm that you picked (that induces and guides mutations) can give us results consistent with that was fair. But if you won't you won't. It would have been interesting to see and could have led to some interesting discussion. Ah well.Jerad
April 11, 2015
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So Jerad refuses to answer my question. Typical. Jerad is too stupid to understand my explanations. Typical. Jerad thinks his stupidity and ignorance is an argument. Typical.Joe
April 11, 2015
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Joe #114 ALL EVOLUTIONARY AND GENETIC ALGORITHMS GET RESULTS THAT ARE CONSISTENT WITH ID AND CONTRARY TO UNGUIDED EVOLUTION. Then give us an example. First tell us an expectation of intelligent design evolution and then show us how an algorithm that you pick is consistent with that. And then let others have a look at it and ask some questions. Seems fair to me.Jerad
April 11, 2015
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Earth to Jerad: ALL EVOLUTIONARY AND GENETIC ALGORITHMS GET RESULTS THAT ARE CONSISTENT WITH ID AND CONTRARY TO UNGUIDED EVOLUTION. What part of that are you too stupid to understand?Joe
April 11, 2015
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Joe #112 Jerad, I made my case and you are choking on it. OTOH you can’t make one. I am OK with that. Too bad you couldn't pick an algorithm and show us how your get results that are consistent with intelligent design evolution. I guess that claim will have to go unestablished.Jerad
April 11, 2015
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Jerad, I made my case and you are choking on it. OTOH you can't make one. I am OK with that.Joe
April 11, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman #109 dying and death only have meaning to things that are temporally bound. From a perspective outside the universe death is an illusion. Every single creature that has ever existed still exists in the designers perception. I live in the here and now. And I see a lot of suffering and dying and waste. You sure have a twisted idea of what folks like me believe. I’m not even sure where to start. I only speak for myself not for others. I have no idea what you think the reasons for all the extinctions are. Death is not punishment for your choices it’s the inevitable result of being a finite entity on your own in a temporal universe. So . . .dropping an asteroid and killing off the dinosaurs is okay? Much like letting the whole earth flood and only saving one extended family? To not die you only need to somehow transcend the universe or be “entangled” with something/someone that does. I think I'll just leave it for now. Our ways of looking at things are too far apart to be worth trying to find a bridge. I think.Jerad
April 11, 2015
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Joe #108 Jerad, obviously you are just an obtuse arse. Do your own research. Everyone else in the world understands what I said- well perhaps there are other evos just as willfully ignorant as you are. I just want to make sure that your case/claim is presented as you intended. You are the one that brought it up. And you are the one that always requests other to make their case. I'm just asking you to make yours. My ideas are fleshed out in evolutionary and genetic algorithms. Don’t blame me for your ignorance, Jerad. Just show us how would use one. That's all. Yes- ALL EVOLUTIONARY AND GENETIC ALGORITHMS GET RESULTS THAT ARE CONSISTENT WITH id AND CONTRARY TO UNGUIDED EVOLKUTION. Then show us an example. Make sure no one twists your intentions. What part of that are you too stupid to understand? I just want to see you make your case clearly and without ambiguity. Pick an algorithm and a particular case we can all look at and show us what you get. It's better to talk about particulars than abstractions don't you agree? You and others here are always saying un-guided evolution can't prove anything, that's it's all just-so stories. Well, I'm just asking you to establish your claim at the same level you expect from others. What's wrong with that? It's up to you. You can leave it if you wish.Jerad
April 11, 2015
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Jerad says, That’s a lot of dying. And then there’s some of the great die offs. I say, dying and death only have meaning to things that are temporally bound. From a perspective outside the universe death is an illusion. Every single creature that has ever existed still exists in the designers perception. You say, Do you destroy your creations because they’re not doing what you want them to do? Give them free will and then punish them for that? I say, You sure have a twisted idea of what folks like me believe. I'm not even sure where to start. Death is not punishment for your choices it's the inevitable result of being a finite entity on your own in a temporal universe. To not die you only need to somehow transcend the universe or be "entangled" with something/someone that does. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 11, 2015
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Jerad, obviously you are just an obtuse arse. Do your own research. Everyone else in the world understands what I said- well perhaps there are other evos just as willfully ignorant as you are. My ideas are fleshed out in evolutionary and genetic algorithms. Don't blame me for your ignorance, Jerad.
Can you pick an algorithm, plug in the appropriate values and get results consistent with intelligent design evolution?
Yes- ALL EVOLUTIONARY AND GENETIC ALGORITHMS GET RESULTS THAT ARE CONSISTENT WITH id AND CONTRARY TO UNGUIDED EVOLKUTION. What part of that are you too stupid to understand?Joe
April 11, 2015
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Joe #105 AGAIN- ALL evolutionary and genetic algorithms model intelligent design evolution. Start with those discussed in Scientific Americans “Evolving Inventions” and stop whining. I'm just asking you to pick one of the algorithms, plus in the appropriate values and show us how it models intelligent design evolution. Show us how the results are consistent with intelligent design precepts and expectations. We have already demonstrated that you don’t know what you are talking about. Can you pick one of the algorithms and show us how it can be used to model intelligent design evolution? The program forces them. Read the code, duh. Show me some code where the mutations are forced. Mutations happen, Jerad. And guess what? Your position can’t even explain basic cellular reproduction so it can’t even get started. I know they happen but you are saying that there is some programming in the cell that induces mutations which is saying they don't 'just happen'. I'd just like you to explain how the programming induces mutations. You lose and all you can do is badger those with actual ideas. How pathetic is that? I'd just like you to flesh out your ideas by showing us how things work in your model. Can you pick an algorithm, plug in the appropriate values and get results consistent with intelligent design evolution? Can you discuss the programming that you claim exists in the cell that induces and guides mutations? How is the programming encoded and stored? How is it 'read' and translated into action. How does it work in other words. I'm just asking for some solid clarification.Jerad
April 10, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman #104 Besides millions of years is hardly a waste if you are atemporal or immortal. Or immoral. The fossil record is a clear statement of millions and millions of years of extinct species. That's a lot of dying. And then there's some of the great die offs. Do you think that's when the designer just got fed up and wiped away a bunch of his creations like God did in the Bible with the great flood? Do you destroy your creations because they're not doing what you want them to do? Give them free will and then punish them for that?Jerad
April 10, 2015
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Jerad:
Oh well, I’ll guess we’ll have to wait and see if Joe changes his mind and decides to give us a concrete example of an algorithm modelling intelligent design evolution.
AGAIN- ALL evolutionary and genetic algorithms model intelligent design evolution. Start with those discussed in Scientific Americans "Evolving Inventions" and stop whining.
I just want to see you show us what you’re talking about.
We have already demonstrated that you don't know what you are talking about.
How do the algorithms ‘induce’ mutations?
The program forces them. Read the code, duh.
AND, more importantly, in the real world how does the ‘programming’ induce mutations?
Mutations happen, Jerad. And guess what? Your position can't even explain basic cellular reproduction so it can't even get started. You lose and all you can do is badger those with actual ideas. How pathetic is that?Joe
April 10, 2015
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Jerad asks, why the obvious millions and millions of years of waste as illustrated by the fossil record? I say, Do you think the fossil record shows waste? I think it's a fascinating display of the principle of plenitude. It's cool just for the joy of discovery as well. Not mention it helps me to understand the thought process of the designer. Besides millions of years is hardly a waste if you are atemporal or immortal. you say. It looks like the designer had to continuously tweak genomes to get what ‘he’ wanted. But doesn’t that mean he didn’t set up the laws precisely enough in the first place? I say, I know you are a little familiar with my game. In it I find that I can design lots of cool patterns in a number sequence just by fiddling with the boundary conditions and then letting the algorithm take it's course. The cool patterns are not the result of the algorithm and they are not "tweaked" in an ad hoc manner but are placed in the numbers themselves from the very beginning. Peacefifthmonarchyman
April 10, 2015
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Joe #101, 102 Do your own research. I am not here to teach you. It is more than enough to say they work by goal-oriented targeted searches and that is the very opposite of natural selection. Oh well, I'll guess we'll have to wait and see if Joe changes his mind and decides to give us a concrete example of an algorithm modelling intelligent design evolution. You pick one and dissect it if you are really interested. If you want to make this personal, as you so always do, then this is not the proper forum. I just want to see you show us what you're talking about. Nothing personal at all. I'm happy to let the other readers decide if you've proven your case or not. No, Jerad, those are indisputable facts. How do the algorithms 'induce' mutations? AND, more importantly, in the real world how does the 'programming' induce mutations? How does it 'guide' the mutations towards a goal? Where is the programming stored? How is it encoded? By what chemical and physical reactions does it affect development?Jerad
April 10, 2015
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Jerad:
Joe says a number of existing algorithms model intelligent design evolution. He says the algorithms induce mutations which are then guided to a goal.
No, Jerad, those are indisputable facts.
He says it’s all down to dumb luck and ‘it just happened.’
That is also true. 2 for 2.Joe
April 10, 2015
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Jerad:
Then pick one and show us how it works.
Do your own research. I am not here to teach you. It is more than enough to say they work by goal-oriented targeted searches and that is the very opposite of natural selection. You pick one and dissect it if you are really interested. If you want to make this personal, as you so always do, then this is not the proper forum.Joe
April 10, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman #99 I’m late to the conversation If he means that you can reduce design to an algroythym that I definitely disagree. If he means that a designer can use any algorithm he chooses then I would agree. Joe says a number of existing algorithms model intelligent design evolution. He says the algorithms induce mutations which are then guided to a goal. If he is claiming Darwinism is not algorithmic then I would disagree. He says it's all down to dumb luck and 'it just happened.' If he is claiming that Darwinian algorithms are insufficient to model the complexity we see around us then I would agree. But you said Darwinism was algorithmic. I'm confused. Is that your way of saying that Darwinian processes are algorithmic but life is more complex than that. Which I take it to mean that you think life as we see it arouse through some kind of guided process. IF the guider/designer fine tuned the universe for our existence. If 'he' set up all the laws to bring us about. Then why the obvious millions and millions of years of waste as illustrated by the fossil record? It looks like the designer had to continuously tweak genomes to get what 'he' wanted. But doesn't that mean he didn't set up the laws precisely enough in the first place?Jerad
April 10, 2015
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Jerad asks Joe says intelligent design evolution can be modelled with an algorithm. Do you disagree with him then? I say, I'm late to the conversation If he means that you can reduce design to an algroythym that I definitely disagree. If he means that a designer can use any algorithm he chooses then I would agree. Jerad asks, Joe says ‘Darwinism’ cannot be modelled with an algorithm. Do you disagree with him about that then? I say, If he is claiming Darwinism is not algorithmic then I would disagree. If he is claiming that Darwinian algorithms are insufficient to model the complexity we see around us then I would agree. Suppose I need to catch up real quick ;-) peacefifthmonarchyman
April 10, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman #96 The contrast between Darwinism and ID is that Darwinism is algorithmic and ID is not. Joe says intelligent design evolution can be modelled with an algorithm. Do you disagree with him then? Joe says 'Darwinism' cannot be modelled with an algorithm. Do you disagree with him about that then?Jerad
April 10, 2015
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Joe #94, 95 All of them, Jerad. Grow up. Then pick one and show us how it works. How it explains the fossil, genomic, morphological and bio-geographical records. Show us how it predicts past and future life forms. Just pick one, plug in the appropriate parameters and show us how it works. The mutations are induced by the program and then guided towards the solution. How are they 'induced' by the programs? It’s part of the program. You have serious issues, Jerad. How do the programs 'induce' mutations? Goal-oriented targeted searches is an intelligent design mechanism. Natural selection is blind and mindless. It isn’t a search and it isn’t goal-oriented. Correct. Pick an algorithm, put in the appropriate values and show us how it works. I just did. You have not picked an algorithm, plugged in the appropriate values and shown us how it works. Back up your claim. So I say exactly how evolutionary and genetic algorithms model intelligent design evolution- via goal-oriented targeted searches- and Jerad asks me for that very thing right after I say it. Show us how it works in action. Pick an algorithm, plug in the appropriate values and show us the results. Your claim, show us how it works.Jerad
April 10, 2015
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Jared says. You have not given us a clear indication of which algorithm or method is used to model intelligent design evolution. I say, The contrast between Darwinism and ID is that Darwinism is algorithmic and ID is not. A Designer is free to use algorithms but his actions are not constrained in this regard can not be reduced to them. The tee shirt equation would look something like this. CSI=NCF Complex Specified Information is Not Computable. check it out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_function peacefifthmonarchyman
April 10, 2015
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So I say exactly how evolutionary and genetic algorithms model intelligent design evolution- via goal-oriented targeted searches- and Jerad asks me for that very thing right after I say it. Moderators, please take note, indeed.Joe
April 10, 2015
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Jerad:
You have not given us a clear indication of which algorithm or method is used to model intelligent design evolution.
All of them, Jerad. Grow up.
The algorithm allows mutations to occur ‘randomly’ (mathematically it’s not perfect but it’s close).
The mutations are induced by the program and then guided towards the solution.
But it doesn’t mean the mutations were induced!!!
It's part of the program. You have serious issues, Jerad. Goal-oriented targeted searches is an intelligent design mechanism. Natural selection is blind and mindless. It isn’t a search and it isn’t goal-oriented.
Look, can you pick a methodology and an algorithm and show specifically how it models intelligent design evolution?
I just did.Joe
April 10, 2015
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Joe #92 I have. You have not given us a clear indication of which algorithm or method is used to model intelligent design evolution. Hinting and suggesting is not being clear. Yes, it does. The algorithm allows mutations to occur 'randomly' (mathematically it's not perfect but it's close). You claim your model 'induces' mutations but you can't say how. And you haven't shown us a model which does that. Yes, it does. There is no way the target phrase could be found if it was not actively sought out. But it doesn't mean the mutations were induced!!! As I said, you are dense. Kairos Focus take note. I have- all evolutionary and genetic algorithms. Pick a particular one and show us how to carry out the model. Pick an example. How about ATP synthase? Goal-oriented targeted searches is an intelligent design mechanism. Natural selection is blind and mindless. It isn’t a search and it isn’t goal-oriented. Look, can you pick a methodology and an algorithm and show specifically how it models intelligent design evolution? Can you show how it successfully models known examples? Can you run it forward and provide some predictions? Can you run it backwards and illuminates gaps in the fossil record? Can you do those things with your model?Jerad
April 10, 2015
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Jerad:
YOU made a claim, I’m asking you to support it.
I have.
Dr Dawkins Weasel program DOES NOT guide or induce mutations
Yes, it does.
YOU said Dr Dawkins’ Weasel program was a good place to start but it does not have the same base assumptions that you said were essential.
Yes, it does. There is no way the target phrase could be found if it was not actively sought out. As I said, you are dense.
Regardless, will you provide the model for intelligent design guided evolution you claim exists or not?
I have- all evolutionary and genetic algorithms. Goal-oriented targeted searches is an intelligent design mechanism. Natural selection is blind and mindless. It isn't a search and it isn't goal-oriented.Joe
April 10, 2015
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Joe #88, 89 Jerad, Why do I have to have all of the answers when your position doesn’t have any answers? YOU made a claim, I'm asking you to support it. Present one that does not. Dr Dawkins Weasel program DOES NOT guide or induce mutations as you are claiming is the way intelligent design works with some undefined and undetected programming somewhere in the cell. YOU said Dr Dawkins' Weasel program was a good place to start but it does not have the same base assumptions that you said were essential. You can clear all this up by clearly and unambiguously showing the model you claim exists. You are dense. You cannot model an unguided process by using a guided process. All evolutionary and genetic algorithms use goal-oriented targeted searches to actively search for a solution to the problems that are trying to be solved. Regardless, will you provide the model for intelligent design guided evolution you claim exists or not? If you are too stupid to see how this is a guided processes then yes, we should just leave it at that. KairosFocus take note please. We can actually model intelligent design evolution- see evolutionary and genetic algorithms. We cannot model unguided evolution. Show us the actual algorithm you say supports your view. Clear all the questions and issues. Just show us the algorithm. That still stands, Jerad. As long as you clearly and explicitly show us the model.Jerad
April 10, 2015
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Calling one another dense, stupid and ignorant seems counterproductive. However, in considering the origins and basis of our various beliefs these emotional and acrimonious comments appear illustrative. From what I've seen here and elsewhere on topics as diverse as "guided" vs. "unguided" evolution, God vs. no God, The existence of life after death, ghosts, ESP and cases for and against intelligent life in the known universe; It seems to me that on the whole, in the parlance of Dr. Leonard Orr, whatever The Thinker thinks, The Prover proves (each one of us containing a "thinker" function and a "prover" function). The Thinker, being a metaphor for our capacity to choose our pet beliefs, out of a universe of choices whether arbitrarily or after arduous searching and seeking; and, The Prover representing an individual's inate ability to see REASONS to believe in these chosen models. As far as I can tell, over the ages, humans have believed in all manner of "wild notions" and at times have come to blows, even wars over these differing viewpoints, all parties sure that they have the "right" beliefs.JD Welbel
April 10, 2015
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We can actually model intelligent design evolution- see evolutionary and genetic algorithms. We cannot model unguided evolution. That still stands, Jerad.Joe
April 10, 2015
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Jerad, Why do I have to have all of the answers when your position doesn't have any answers? Wrong. They are guided programs. They use goal-oriented targeted searches to actively search for solutions to given problems.
They don’t all do that.
Present one that does not.
AND they are attempting to model unguided evolution or aspects of it.
You are dense. You cannot model an unguided process by using a guided process. All evolutionary and genetic algorithms use goal-oriented targeted searches to actively search for a solution to the problems that are trying to be solved. If you are too stupid to see how this is a guided processes then yes, we should just leave it at that.Joe
April 10, 2015
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