Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Evidence Against Chance and Necessity (Also Known As Darwinism) is Evidence for Design

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In another thread, poster madsen presented the following challenge:

I’m holding out hope that the next post will concern positive evidence for ID rather than more critiques of Darwin.

In mathematics there is a method of proof called “proof by contradiction.” The logic behind this proof is the following: Establish two possible alternatives. Assume that one of the alternatives is true, and prove it to be logically contradictory. A superb example of proof by contradiction is Euclid’s (circa 300 BC) proof that the number of primes is infinite.

Let’s apply the method of proof by contradiction to the chance-and-necessity versus design debate.

Of course, this is not a mathematical model, but there are some very illuminating similarities. There are two options: 1) design (foresight and planning), and 2) the materialistic laws of physics, chemistry, and probability – which are purported to have produced all biological phenomena, from the information-processing machinery of the cell to the human mind.

Option 2) might have been believable in the 19th century, when it was thought that life was fundamentally simple, but it is completely unsupportable in light of modern science. The preponderance of scientific evidence and mathematical analysis weighs overwhelming in support of design, as a proof by contradiction.

Let us not hear about “self-organization.” Sodium chloride forms salt crystals, and water freezes into snowflakes, but salt crystals and snowflakes contain no information (other than that about how the molecules mechanically interact as they coalesce), and they certainly don’t form information-processing machinery.

Of course, there is always the possibility that there is a third option, besides design versus chance and necessity, but I’d like to hear it. In the meantime, logic, evidence, and mathematics weigh heavily on the side of design, as a proof by contradiction.

Comments
Hmm. First, you need to mathematically prove that there are no other alternatives to Design or non-design. The only proof suggested so far is "no one has mentioned one to me". A single third option, no matter how outlandish, invalidates the 'proof'. Second, assuming you've done that, you need to find a logical contradiction. Suddenly shifting gears to "see! - look at all the evidence" is not a contradiction.mikev6
March 15, 2009
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madsen: I’d like to see evidence in support of this assertion. Read Behe's Edge, and check out the desperate, lame attempts to refute his evidence, logic, and mathematical analysis. Harville: You can’t just assume that evolution and ID are... if you somehow disprove evolution... I said nothing about evolution. I referred only to the purported mechanism of chance and necessity as a complex information-producing mechanism, and as the source of highly sophisticated, functionally integrated, information-processing machinery. “Quantum Evolution” is pure fantasy, conjecture, and storytelling, with no empirical support, designed as a desperate attempt to support a conclusion that has already been reached, despite the evidence. The supply of fantasies and stories is unlimited. I could make up a story about a "quantum largest prime" that can't be detected or imagined, in an attempt to refute Euclid's logic. How could you argue against that? In the meantime, there are only two options: chance and necessity and design. There is no evidence that the former has the creative capabilities attributed to it (and plenty of evidence that it does not), while there is plenty of evidence that intelligent agents do have the creative capabilities to produce complex information and the requisite machinery to process it.GilDodgen
March 15, 2009
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Intelligent Design conjectures that evolutionary mechanisms like natural selection and genetic drift are insufficient to account for all the variety and complexity of living things we observe and that an additional explanation is required. It claims that only the intervention of an unspecified intelligent agent can fill the explanatory gap. Unfortunately, while Design proponents are long on expressions of disbelief in the sufficiency of evolutionary explanations, they are short on evidence. Mostly, it consists of pointing to gaps in the evidence that already exists for evolution plus some controversial probability estimates and claims about a concept of information that is problematical. What we do have is essentially an argument from incredulity. What we don't have is a clear proof by contradiction since it depends on there being two mutually-exclusive alternatives but, by acknowledging common descent and microevolution, Design proponents have undermined any such possibility.Seversky
March 15, 2009
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jerry,
madsen, How many studies support the origin of complex novel capabilities through naturalistic processes? Do you know of any? We have been asking for one since as long as I have been posting here which is almost 3 1/2 years. If none exist because none have every been tried then it is time that evolutionary biology look into it. If all have failed then each one represent support for ID.
While I said earlier that I am interested in ID, I disagree with this type of logic. Let's say we are considering flagella, for example. They were either designed (by some intelligent agent presumably) or not designed. Not being a biologist, I have no reason to think either option is more likely than the other. I cannot cite any studies that completely explain their possible naturalistic origin, but I also don't know of any that explain how they could have been designed. Now for some reason, my inability to explain the naturalistic origin of flagella is supposed to count in favor of the design hypothesis. On the other hand, someone else's inability to explain how flagella were designed does not count in favor of a naturalistic origin. Why the lack of symmetry?madsen
March 15, 2009
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GilDodgen:
In mathematics there is a method of proof called “proof by contradiction.” The logic behind this proof is the following: Establish two possible alternatives. Assume that one of the alternatives is true, and prove it to be logically contradictory. A superb example of proof by contradiction is Euclid’s (circa 300 BC) proof that the number of primes is infinite. Let’s apply the method of proof by contradiction to the chance-and-necessity versus design debate.
This isn't mathematics, this is biology. Proof by contradiction doesn't apply here. You can't just assume that evolution and ID are the only possible explanations of life and then say that if you somehow disprove evolution then you've proven ID. If you want an example of a different explanation see Johnjoe McFadden's book "Quantum Evolution" in which the author enlists quantum physical explanations to explain evolution and abiogenesis.B L Harville
March 15, 2009
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madsen, How many studies support the origin of complex novel capabilities through naturalistic processes? Do you know of any? We have been asking for one since as long as I have been posting here which is almost 3 1/2 years. If none exist because none have every been tried then it is time that evolutionary biology look into it. If all have failed then each one represent support for ID.jerry
March 15, 2009
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So the problem has now been reduced to showing that this:
The preponderance of scientific evidence and mathematical analysis weighs overwhelming in support of design, as a proof by contradiction.
is true. I'd like to see evidence in support of this assertion.madsen
March 15, 2009
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Gil, I have been making this argument for some time and most recently over on the moderation thread. That naturalistic processes for macro evolution (option A) and for design (option B) are alternatives and make up the only two possibilities. But suppose there is a third or fourth etc alternative that we can not fathom as of yet. Then there is the dichotomy of a naturalistic process (option A) and a non naturalistic process (option B') which includes intelligence as one of the options for B'. Then you could make the distinction between A and B' so that evidence that falsifies A supports B'. If you couch the argument in terms of possibilities, then p is not 1 for either A or B' but increases or decreases as additional evidence is found. The probability that A is true is p and the probability that B' is true is 1-p. Thus, every study in evolutionary biology either increases or decreases the value of p or 1-p. The argument you get from the anti ID people is that p=1 for A despite what any research result says. It is an axiom, not something to be shown.jerry
March 15, 2009
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