Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Evolution is a Fact!

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Just so we are clear, I am certain that everyone who posts at this site believes evolution is a fact (or fact! fact! fact! as some of our more breathless opponents prefer). 

Whoa Barry!  Are you telling us that Uncommon Descent does not oppose the concept of evolution?  Yes, I am telling you exactly that.

Then what is all the fuss and disagreement about?  I’m glad you asked.  But before I answer that question, let me begin with what the fuss and disagreement are NOT about.

 The fuss and the disagreement are not about whether evolution occurred.  Obviously evolution occurred if by “evolution” one means, “things are different now than they were in the past.”  I don’t know anyone who disagrees with that.  That bare fact is uninteresting, even trivial. 

The important question is not WHETHER things are different now than they were in the past.  They obviously are.  The important question is “WHY are things different now than they were in the past?”  As Phil Johnson has pointed out, the Darwinist starts with the following proposition:  “Given materialist premises, Darwinian evolution or something very much like it simply must be true.”  Therefore, since the Darwinist already “knows” that Darwinian evolution exhausts all of the options open to investigation, he interprets all of the data to – big surprise here – confirm Darwinian evolution.  It is almost literally the case that a Darwinist is incapable of seeing data that does not confirm or tends to disconfirm his theory. 

But the Darwinist’s initial premise is false even on materialist terms.  Even uber-materialist Richard Dawkins admits that the complexity and diversity of life might be the result of the actions of super-intelligent aliens.  This explanation requires no supernatural act to have occurred and violates no precept either of philosophical or methodological materialism.

Therefore, the fuss and the disagreement is about whether “intelligent cause” must be ruled out from the beginning as a possible causal factor for why things are different now than they were in the past.  It is exactly like two police detectives standing over the body of a person whose head has been bashed in by a blunt object and having the following conversation:

Columbo:  “I am a materialist.  Therefore, given my premises I know for a certain fact that this person’s death must have been caused by blind, unguided natural forces.  Therefore, I already know that all of the data I find will support that conclusion.  Moreover, the certain knowledge I have before I ever even look at the data means I will never even have to consider the possibility that this person’s death was caused by the acts of an intelligent agent, and I can safely ignore any data that might tend to disprove my starting point or confirm an “intelligent agent” theory.  My theory is that a rock fell from above and hit him in the head.  Probably the rock was dislodged from the side of a hill by the wind or rain and rolled down the hill and smacked him.  Bad luck all around.  By the way, I call the rolling rock theory a “theory” only for form’s sake.  We both know it is a fact! fact! fact!  Bad luck all around.  Case closed.”

Holmes:  “I am not going to make up my mind in advance about whether this death resulted from blind, unguided and exceedingly bad luck or whether it is the result of the acts of an intelligent agent, that is to say, murder.  By the way, I am willing to assume materialist premises too, at least on a methodological basis, but you are wrong to say that assumption precludes the act of an intelligent agent.  All murderers of whom I am aware have been quite human.  I understand your rolling rock theory, and I just don’t think it is supported by the data.  First of all, the body is almost at the top of the hill, so it is unlikely that even if a rock were dislodged by the wind and rain it could have gathered enough momentum to do the work you ascribe to it.  Also, I note that there are no bloody rocks anywhere around the body.  Finally, I note the presence of a bloody club near the body, and on that club are the fingerprints of the dead person’s worst enemy who swore to kill him only two days ago.  I conclude that the “accident theory” while not impossible from a mathematical or logical perspective is not the most likely explanation.  This scene bears indicia of design.  I conclude the victim was murdered.”

 Columbo:  “Fundamentalist cretin!”

If the case were to proceed to trial, we might also have this:

Judge Jones:  “I understand that Holmes went to Sunday School when  he was  a child.  Therefore, his theory must be disregarded as the musings of a religious fanatic.  Case dismissed.  Bailiff, set the defendant free!”

Comments
True. However every instance of apparent design needs to be investigated to see what caused it.
Has this, in the entire history of Intelligent Design, been done?
Shouldn't evolutionists also be doing that? Yes they should or else they can't just assert "apparent design".
Why, then, would you suggest with a straight face that it could and should be done?
How can we tell "apparent design" from "real design"? Do you guys flip a coin? Or do you say well that looks designed but it ain't?
I asked you about HIV and you said
No, you tried to tell me that HIV means the designer intervened. I said: That HIV is like a prion- leftovers from a once living organism with a full genome.
Now expand on that for, I don’t know, 2-3 thousand words. Add in some lab work to back it up. And then you might be able to say where HIV came from.
I was just answering your question. However if you want to pay me I will put together such a report. $100,000 may cover the expenses.
But a few lines in a blog and you act live you’ve solved a mystery?
I don't even think I solved anything. However I do think my explanation is viable. Do you have any evidence for the origin of HIV/ SIV? As for nonsense- just look at your posts.Joseph
September 22, 2009
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Joseph
True. However every instance of apparent design needs to be investigated to see what caused it.
Has this, in the entire history of Intelligent Design, been done? I don't believe so. Can you prove otherwise? Why, then, would you suggest with a straight face that it could and should be done? I asked you about HIV and you said
That HIV is like a prion- leftovers from a once living organism with a full genome.
Now expand on that for, I don't know, 2-3 thousand words. Add in some lab work to back it up. And then you might be able to say where HIV came from. But a few lines in a blog and you act live you've solved a mystery? Big whoop. In fact, in the reality based community such a statement would obtain the derision it rightly deserves. But at UD it seems I'm the only one calling you on your nonsense.Moseph
September 22, 2009
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Joseph
True. However every instance of apparent design needs to be investigated to see what caused it.
Great, now we're getting somewhere. Presumably you can give me an example of a biological entity that is A) Designed B) Not-Designed Can you do so? I have to assume you can otherwise you'd have made no differentiation between apparent and actual design. And what would you say the ratio of designed to not-designed organisms be? 100:1? 1:100? If I look at a random biological entity will I probably see design or no-design?
That HIV is like a prion- leftovers from a once living organism with a full genome.
I'm afraid I simply don't understand what you mean. HIV is very unlike a prion. And what do you mean by "once living organism with a full genome"? Are there organisms out there without full genomes? And how do you know that in any case, that HIV is a leftover? Where are you getting that information from?
I don’t deny the possibility but I don’t see any evidence for it.
You don't see any evidence for what? The designer being active now?Moseph
September 22, 2009
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Moseph:
But you’d agree that not every instance of apparent design is in fact an example of explicit design right?
True. However every instance of apparent design needs to be investigated to see what caused it.
Joseph, the thing is that if I agree with you there then it means that things like HIV have been recently designed and introduced into humans.
Nope.
What alternative position is there?
That HIV is like a prion- leftovers from a once living organism with a full genome.
Still, at least you think the designer is active today and not restricted to a role in the background billions of years ago like so many people.
I don't deny the possibility but I don't see any evidence for it.Joseph
September 22, 2009
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Joseph
However it can also be traced back to Darwin- that is that the observed design in nature is “apparent” or “illusory” and not real design.
But you'd agree that not every instance of apparent design is in fact an example of explicit design right? Joseph, the thing is that if I agree with you there then it means that things like HIV have been recently designed and introduced into humans. What alternative position is there? Still, at least you think the designer is active today and not restricted to a role in the background billions of years ago like so many people.Moseph
September 22, 2009
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Thanks Canadian Yankee: Supporting Intelligent Design- a small sampleJoseph
September 22, 2009
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Seversky, Read Dawkins. However it can also be traced back to Darwin- that is that the observed design in nature is "apparent" or "illusory" and not real design.Joseph
September 22, 2009
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In the original post, Barry Arrington states: "The fuss and the disagreement are not about whether evolution occurred. Obviously evolution occurred if by “evolution” one means, “things are different now than they were in the past.” I don’t know anyone who disagrees with that. That bare fact is uninteresting, even trivial. The important question is not WHETHER things are different now than they were in the past. They obviously are. The important question is “WHY are things different now than they were in the past?” I disagree, at least in part. I think that ID folks give the evolution that life has obviously (from the fossil record) undergone somewhat short shrift. Evolution in general usually includes some notion of progress, of increasing sophistication, complexity, capability, or some such (although not always, I admit) and I think it is important to note that the fossil record confirms that the evolution of living things has not only changed, it has substantially increased in complexity and variety over its history. "Things" are not only different than they were, they are noticeably more complex, and I think that this fact is very interesting. Why? Because if you believe that life was designed, as I do, then one has to ask the question, "Why did the designer(s) of living things choose to evolve life rather than simply create all the species he/she/they is/were interested in in one go?" The answer to such a question is of course outside of the realm of scientific inquiry, but it is extremely important to the philosophical/religious inquiry that the conclusion of design evokes. If you believe that the designer was God, then your theology better include an answer to that question. Personally, I don't believe that the question can be answered until one has a clear idea of the purpose of creation in the first place. And in my humble opinion, it is one of the failures of Christianity (and of all religions with which I am familiar) that the ultimate purpose of the created Universe is never really addressed.Bruce David
September 21, 2009
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#38 True, a supernatural designer would not have a physical modus operandi and hence we could never describe how it did what it did. But the modus operandi of a natural designer who was, say, 1,000 years ahead of us technologically, would also be totally incomprehensible to us, so in practical terms, what’s the difference? I am not sure that natural/supernatural is a useful distinction in this context - although I 99% agree with Meganc. Leave design for the moment and consider any other unexplained phenomenon e.g. a new type of comet that behaves in a theoretically impossible way. Scientists studying this might come up with various hypotheses. What would you think of the hypothesis that this was caused by an intelligence so advanced that is used methods we cannot comprehend? It would be rightly dismissed unless there was some other way of exploring the hypothesis e.g. communicating with this intelligence or specifying where it came from. Proposing a solution which explains exactly what we observe and nothing else and has undefined powers and motives is to make no progress. It doesn't really matter whether it is supernatural or a very advanced civilisation of which we know nothing.Mark Frank
September 21, 2009
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MeganC, “Only supernatural design/intervention is excluded from ‘explaining’ evolution & abiogenesis since it makes no predictions and can't be tested.” A designer is a designer is a designer. What mnakes you think a supernatural designer would be so different from a natural one in its aims? True, a supernatural designer would not have a physical modus operandi and hence we could never describe how it did what it did. But the modus operandi of a natural designer who was, say, 1,000 years ahead of us technologically, would also be totally incomprehensible to us, so in practical terms, what's the difference?vjtorley
September 21, 2009
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MeganC, "Only supernatural design/intervention is excluded from ‘explaining’ evolution & abiogenesis since it makes no predictions and can’t be tested." First of all design/interventions are not necessarily supernatural. The only ones making this assertion are Darwinists. Second: evolution does not work without an intervening designer. Fitness scenarios are counterproductive to the theory, because they imply a target, which implies purpose, which implies design. Third: Name a Darwinian prediction that can only be explained exclusively through Darwinian theory. Fourth: Darwinian theory started as a counter to design inferences. If design inferences cannot be tested, why then do we have a Darwinian theory that attempts to counter them? Furthermore, why are you even here arguing your point if our point can't be tested?CannuckianYankee
September 21, 2009
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DonaldM: "The one question I can never get a materialist to answer is this: how do you know scientifically that the properties of Nature are such that any apparent design we observe in biological systems can not be actual design, even in principle?" Seversky: "Name a materialist who has actually claimed precisely that. otherwise your question is a strawman and not worth the answering." Well, Seversky, I find myself agreeing with you to a point. Let's use Dawkins as an example, because his observations are very relevant here. He doesn't state that the appearance of design cannot be design "even in principle." He states something a little less dogmatic - that the appearance of design is along the lines of a mirage. In fact, Dawkins stated that the appearance of design could be actual design, but not by a supernatural entity. My disagreement is with your strawman contention. There are many naturalists who are not as kind as Dawkins on this point (Kind and Dawkins together in one sentence?) :) Methodological naturalims IS the driving force behind the Darwinian rationalization on descent. Therefore, it's not a strawman to observe that by meth/nat we cannot infer design. There are other Darwinists who have stated as much. Now do you want me to name them, or are you satisfied?CannuckianYankee
September 21, 2009
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Mapou, "I am a staunch Christian and I agree with common descent. My understanding is that man was the last creature to be designed. It makes sense that the designer would reuse a mountain of code that had already been perfected. A little addition here, cut a few things over there, modify those in the middle and Bingo! The first human is designed! It makes sense that an intelligent designer would use a compositional model to create new designs." I don't know where this "free Mapou campaign" all got started. Could it be in reference to your reply above to my little observation on Dr. Behe's religious beliefs? Anyway, that's neither here nor there. What I want to point out is that your statement makes sense, but it wouldn't be the designer as depicted in scripture, and this is a crucial distinction. Your scenario paints God as a tinkerer with His creation in order to acquire optimization. I don't think scripture supports such a picture. I think the various species were designed with optimal characteristics, which were maligned due to the fall. My own view about evolution - and this can change with better evidence - and perhaps a clearer understanding, is that God created humans as humans. I'm not certain if the soul was present immediately, although Genesis could be interpreted as though it did. Scripture seems to suggest that the human body and soul while living are one - and became so when God 'breathed' into them. Evolution in my view, then is merely adaptation and malignant mutation. We have different races due to adaptation to different environments. We also have modifications in different species for the same reason. Overall, species have devolved from the optimal design they once had, but evolution - which is designed into the system, compensates for many of these malignant mutations, but not always. Observations about fitness, the fossil record, and all of the other Darwinian icons, which are viewed to support common descent and random natural processes are irrelevant to evolution. While some of these observations may be valid, they have better explanations by design than by random natural processes. Unlike Behe, I don't currently accept common descent, and I haven't found a rigorous scientific explanation for why I should. So common descent really is counter to my own and most other Christians' understandings of Creation. I can see why some Christians accept common descent, but I don't see that it fits with a scriptural understanding. On the other hand, I have problems with scientific creationism. I don't think the Bible should nor needs to be viewed as a scientific text. Ultimately I don't think science and scripture are incompatible, but to use scripture in guiding science is a mistake - since scripture needs to be interpreted within a certain social context and understanding, which are far removed from our own. Science is the study of God's general revelation - nature. We should be able to learn something about God through science, but the more specifics, which nature can't tell us - through the special revelation of scripture.CannuckianYankee
September 21, 2009
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DonaldM @ 33
The one question I can never get a materialist to answer is this: how do you know scientifically that the properties of Nature are such that any apparent design we observe in biological systems can not be actual design, even in principle?
Name a materialist who has actually claimed precisely that. otherwise your question is a strawman and not worth the answering. Seversky
September 21, 2009
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Excellent post, Barry. The one question I can never get a materialist to answer is this: how do you know scientifically that the properties of Nature are such that any apparent design we observe in biological systems can not be actual design, even in principle? I'm the least bit interested in their philosophical, metaphysical or theological speculations on this question. I want to see the science! How has this been confirmed by scientific experiment? Where has it been reported in the relevant peer reviewed science research journals? How might it be falsified? Unless and until the materialists answer this question with actual science rather than philosophy, all their whinining and moaning that ID isn't science, or that nothing in nature gives evidence of actual design, is nothing but bluff and bluster. There's not a single materialist who has EVER provided a scientific explanation for materialism. Philosophical arguments abound...but who cares...we want to see the science!DonaldM
September 21, 2009
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Ritchie, "For my money it strikes me that the only ‘evidence’ (and it isn’t really that) for ID is the flaws it tries to find with the theory of evolution." In addition to what Joseph has stated, you must understand that ID is concerned with design inferences. Darwinism started as a counter to design inferences. Therefore, your money and mine, should be invested in determining which argument is best infered by the evidence. Part of that determination involves pointing out the weaknesses of a theory that counters ID. But that's not all. The weaknesses in ToE actually help the design inference that ToE drove to replace. Furthermore, Darwinists continue to this day to claim that ID is not falsifiable, yet the whole theory of Darwinian evolution is concerned with falsifying a design inference. That's a rather peculiar position. There are many flaws in Darwinism, which strengthen ID. I think we showed you at least one in pointing out (in another thread) that Dawkins' demonstration of cumulative selection actually supports ID rather than blind evolutionary processes. But ID's main focus is on the positive evidences in support of a design inference. You state: "You cannot prove one theory by disproving a competing one. Because perhaps NEITHER are true." First of all, nobody's trying to PROVE anything here. What we are attempting to do is show which theory is the best inference by the evidence. This involves comparing ID to the counter theory, explaining why that theory (which started as a counter to design inferences) doesn't work, and offering positive alternatives as to why the design inference was the correct position all along. That's how it works with historical scientific theories. Neither ID or ToE are like physics and chemistry, which can be tested in the laboratory. We rely on inferences to the best explanation. You can't show that your theory is the best explanation without comparing it to the alternative theory. You also state: "Because perhaps NEITHER are true." I don't think there is an alternative between blind unguided forces at work in arriving at the complexity in nature, and intelligent design at work. It's really an either/or equation - except that ID allows for some naturalistic processes as well. So it's the Darwinian ToE that is the more dogmatic here, in insisting that it is only blind natural processes at work.CannuckianYankee
September 21, 2009
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Joseph, Your link "Supporting Intelligent Design" isn't working.CannuckianYankee
September 21, 2009
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All right. I tried posting a response to absolutist and, apparently, it was censored by the moderators. So be it. I guess that's the clue for me to bid adieu to all. It's been fun.Mapou
September 21, 2009
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For my money it strikes me that the only ‘evidence’ (and it isn’t really that) for ID is the flaws it tries to find with the theory of evolution.
Your money is blind, deaf and dumb. IDists have presented the positive evidence. Here is a small sample: Supporting Intelligent DesignJoseph
September 21, 2009
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For my money it strikes me that the only 'evidence' (and it isn't really that) for ID is the flaws it tries to find with the theory of evolution. Which is absurd. You cannot prove one theory by disproving a competing one. Because perhaps NEITHER are true. So could someone please prove me wrong and offer some positive, testable evidence for ID which does not amount to a half-baked attempt to criticise evolution?Ritchie
September 21, 2009
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Mapou, I agree with Alan. Are you rebelling against Christian scripture? I ask in a loving way because: (1) Being a Christian means to follow Jesus Christ who claims there is only one way to God, not mythical "Gods." (John 14:6) (2) Scripture says Man is made in God's image not from a modified ape design, so Sumerian myths are just that - myths. (Genesis 1:26-27; 5:1; 9:6; 1 Corinthians 11:7; James 3:9) Be good and be free.absolutist
September 21, 2009
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How could a fossil record be correct or incorrect? What do you have in mind that they would be “correct” about?
No, that there is change in species over time, at that happened over millions of years.Heinrich
September 21, 2009
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Mapou - I would point out to you that Biblically you are NOT a staunch Christian. Otherwise you would amend your position to something like this: The Creator created with information in the code to allow for slight modifications in order to preserve the thing/species made and that ability would be multiplied due to the effects of the fall as stated clearly in Romans Chapter one & eight. Perhaps you might want to read these passages in their entirety being concerned as you are I'm sure that you are not subject to Matthew 25:2. I join the "free" Mapou campaign.alan
September 21, 2009
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Cabal "We are even in a better position than the designer when we attempt recreation of life: We know what life is, how it looks, how it works!" and if that wasn't enough "Be that as it may. Interestingly enough, ‘blind watchmaker-type processes’ are just the type of processes that from a single cell builds a complete human body. Isn’t that marvellous, magical? A thought experiment: If we succeed in creating a living cell in the laboratory, are there any reasons why that cell could not replicate, multiply and be a species of its own, subject to the same evolutionary forces (microevolution?) that characterize all life that we know? WHAT!!!!! - Hey Barry - this I think is a good example of one inference of your post - thinking becomes a problem for such minded / wired types. They are doing well mentally IF assumption = fact. A legal dictum: "A thing similar is not that same thing."alan
September 21, 2009
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The OoL is relevant because if living organisms did not arise from non-living matter via blind watchmaker-type processes then there wouldn’t be any reason to infer said processes rule over evolution.
“Non-living matter” strike me as a rather odd term.
It doesn't strike me as such. Actually it flows naturally- without supernatural intervention. To me, matter is matter, period. If we leave metaphysics aside for a moment, then from a ‘life’ point of view, it is just chemistry. That is teh assertion anyway- that living organisms are so reducible. And if someone ever demonstrates that is the case ID would fall.
The ‘life’ component is rather opaque and hard to find under the microscope.
The computer code on a disc is hard to see under a microscope. Does that mean it doesn't exist?
Interestingly enough, ‘blind watchmaker-type processes’ are just the type of processes that from a single cell builds a complete human body.
Too bad there isn't any data that supports that assertion.
A thought experiment: If we succeed in creating a living cell in the laboratory, are there any reasons why that cell could not replicate, multiply and be a species of its own, subject to the same evolutionary forces (microevolution?) that characterize all life that we know?
Not if that is how we designed it.
IMHO, it is irrelevant for evolution how the first cell came into existence.
I told you why it matters.
Are you saying that if the first cell was not created by natural processes, then natural processes are not present in evolution?
Design is natural. A targeted search is natural. I was very clear so please stop misrepresenting what I say.Joseph
September 21, 2009
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pk4_paul,
squat
I believe ‘squat’ may be a little exaggerated. As far as I can tell, science already has done plenty of experimental and theoretical work on the study of OOL chemistry. With rich observational evidence of organic chemistry in places where nobody had expected we would find any. Joseph,
The OoL is relevant because if living organisms did not arise from non-living matter via blind watchmaker-type processes then there wouldn’t be any reason to infer said processes rule over evolution.
“Non-living matter” strike me as a rather odd term. To me, matter is matter, period. If we leave metaphysics aside for a moment, then from a ‘life’ point of view, it is just chemistry. The ‘life’ component is rather opaque and hard to find under the microscope. There, we see only chemistry. Be that as it may. Interestingly enough, ‘blind watchmaker-type processes’ are just the type of processes that from a single cell builds a complete human body. Isn’t that marvellous, magical? A thought experiment: If we succeed in creating a living cell in the laboratory, are there any reasons why that cell could not replicate, multiply and be a species of its own, subject to the same evolutionary forces (microevolution?) that characterize all life that we know? IMHO, it is irrelevant for evolution how the first cell came into existence. Are you saying that if the first cell was not created by natural processes, then natural processes are not present in evolution? (“rule over evolution”)Cabal
September 21, 2009
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Heinrich,
Ah good. Then everyone agrees that the earth is about 4.5bn years old, and the fossil record is correct, no?
How could a fossil record be correct or incorrect? What do you have in mind that they would be "correct" about? Do you mean, are the fossils really fossils or are they fakes?Clive Hayden
September 21, 2009
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Mapou, just so you know, I support the "Free Mapou" campaign.Oramus
September 20, 2009
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The fuss and the disagreement are not about whether evolution occurred.
Ah good. Then everyone agrees that the earth is about 4.5bn years old, and the fossil record is correct, no?Heinrich
September 20, 2009
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Finally, I note the presence of a bloody club near the body, and on that club are the fingerprints of the dead person’s worst enemy who swore to kill him only two days ago How it helps when you have a theory as to who, how and when. To me it is more like this. An old body is found at the bottom of a quarry. C: looks like an accident. The victim fell into the quarry. H: - ah but what are the chances that it should fall in exactly this position so near the bottom of the quarry when there are a billion other positions it might have fallen in. This outcome is so implausible as to be negligible. Therefore, it was not natural. Therefore it must have been murder. C: I think the accident is more plausible. H: Plausible! Tell me exactly when and how the victim fell, the path it took in its descent to this spot, and the probability of each point on that path. C: Well no - that would be difficult. But tell me who do you think did it? How? And why? H: Ah that is for future enquiry. The important thing is we have overwhelming evidence of murder.Mark Frank
September 20, 2009
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