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Evolutionary biology rewrites the American Declaration of Independence

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I am currently reading a thought-provoking book titled, Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Dr. Yuval Noah Harari, who has a Ph.D. in History from Oxford University and who now lectures at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Dr. Harari is no friend of religion, but he is quite frank in acknowledging that liberal humanism is founded on monotheistic beliefs, and that the current scientific consensus among evolutionary biologists is increasingly at odds with the tenets of liberal humanism.

In chapter 6 of his book, Dr. Harari contrasts two documents: Hammurabi’s Code (written in 1776 B.C.) and the American Declaration of Independence (written in 1776 A.D.). Under Hammurabi’s Code, society was viewed as a hierarchy: people were divided into two genders and three classes (superior people, commoners and slaves), each of differing monetary values. Children were the property of their parents, and could be killed as punishment for crimes committed by their parents, such as murder. Now, it is easy for us to recognize that the Babylonian division of people into superior and inferior classes was not based on any objective reality, but on a social myth that was widely accepted by people living at that time. But Dr. Harari argues that the belief, enshrined in the American Declaration of Independence, that all human beings are equal, is also a myth with no basis in reality. He writes:

Is there any objective reality, outside the human imagination, in which we are truly equal? Are all humans equal to one another biologically? Let us try to translate the most famous line of the American Declaration of Independence into biological terms:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

According to the science of biology, people were not ‘created’. They have evolved. And they certainly did not evolve to be ‘equal’. The idea of equality is inextricably intertwined with the idea of creation. The Americans got the idea of equality from Christianity, which argues that every person has a divinely created soul, and that all souls are equal before God. However, if we do not believe in the Christian myths about God, creation and souls, what does it mean that all people are ‘equal’? Evolution is based on difference, not on equality. Every person carries a somewhat different genetic code, and is exposed from birth to different environmental influences. This leads to the development of different qualities that carry with them different chances of survival. ‘Created equal’ should therefore be translated into ‘evolved differently’.

Just as people were never created, neither, according to the science of biology, is there a ‘Creator’ who ‘endows’ them with anything. There is only a blind evolutionary process, devoid of any purpose, leading to the birth of individuals. ‘Endowed by their creator’ should be translated simply into ‘born’.

Equally, there is no such thing as rights in biology. There are only organs, abilities and characteristics. Birds fly not because they have a right to fly, but because they have wings. And it’s not true that these organs, abilities and characteristics are ‘unalienable’. Many of them undergo constant mutations, and may well be completely lost over time. The ostrich is a bird that has lost its ability to fly. So ‘unalienable’ rights should be translated into ‘mutable characteristics’.

And what are the characteristics that evolved in humans? ‘Life’, certainly. But ‘liberty’? There is no such thing in biology. Just like equality, rights and limited liability companies, liberty is something that people invented and that exists only in their imagination. From a biological standpoint, it is meaningless to say that humans in democratic societies are free, whereas humans in dictatorships are unfree. And what about ‘happiness’? So far biological research has failed to come up with a clear definition of happiness or a way to measure it objectively. Most biological studies acknowledge only the existence of pleasure, which is more easily defined and measured. So ‘life, libery and the pursuit of happiness’ should be translated into ‘life and the pursuit of pleasure’.

So here is that line from the American Declaration of Independence translated into biological terms:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men evolved differently, that they are born with certain mutable characteristics, and that among these are life and the pursuit of pleasure.

Dr. Harari goes on to say that he has no argument with those who would contend that encouraging people to believe in the myth of equality will help create a stable and prosperous society, thereby creating an imagined order, which is neither a subjective mirage nor an objective fact, but rather, a publicly accepted fiction residing in the consciousness of many individuals, which enables large numbers of humans to co-operate effectively. He goes on to note, however, that Hammurabi’s Code, in which the social order was based on a shared belief in hierarchy, could be justified by the same line of reasoning.

Dr. Harari also notes that any social order requires what he calls ‘true believers’: in order for it to work, a large number of people – including people in the elite class and in the security forces – have to actually believe that the myth is true. “American democracy,” he writes, “would not have lasted 250 years if the majority of presidents and congressmen failed to believe in human rights.”

Dr. Harari also makes the interesting point that in order to change an imagined order, which is collectively held by the vast majority of citizens, we need to simultaneously changes the beliefs of millions of citizens. But since these citizens still need to function as a society, they will need to replace the myth they discarded with a new myth.

In a later chapter, Dr. Harari explores the disturbing social implications of evolutionary biology, whose findings do not support liberal humanism, but a radically different kind of humanism – evolutionary humanism – in which the ultimate goal of society is to encourage the evolution of human beings into a race of superhumans:

At the dawn of the third millennium, the future of evlutionary humanism is unclear. For sixty years after the end of the war against Hitler it was taboo to link humanism with evolution and to advocate using biological methods to ‘upgrade’ Homo sapiens. But today such projects are back in vogue. No one speaks openly about exterminating lower races or inferior people, but many contemplate using our increasing knowledge of human biology to create superhumans.

At the same time, a huge gulf is opening between the tentes of liberal humanism and the latest findings of the life sciences, a pull we cannot ignore much longer. Our liberal political and judicial systems are founded on the belief that every individual has a sacred inner nature, indivisible and immutable, which gives meaning to the world, and which is the source of all ethical and political authority. This is a reincarnation of the traditional Christian belief in a free and eternal soul that resides within each individual. Yet over the last 200 years, the life sciences have thoroughly undermined this belief. Scientists studying the inner workings of the human organism have found no sould there. They increasingly argue that human behavior is determined by hormones, genes and synapses, rather than by free will – the same forces that determine the behavior of chimpanzees, wolves, and ants. Our judicial and political systems largely try to sweep such inconvenient discoveries under the carpet. But in all frankness, how long can we maintain the wall separating the department of biology from the departments of law and political science?
(Emphases mine – VJT.)

How long, indeed?

Dr. Harari and I disagree profoundly on the human soul, and on the sufficiency of blind processes to explain the course of human evolution. Nevertheless, Dr. Harari is to be commended for his clearsightedness and frankness, in expounding the logic of evolutionary biology with perfect clarity. You cannot believe in the values enshrined in the American Declaration of Independence and at the same time, call yourself an evolutionary biologist. Which raises an interesting sociological question: why are American schools teaching a doctrine in their science classrooms which undermines the founding principles of their own society?

Thoughts?

Comments
Z, why have you tried to conflate the US Founders with a later generation, nearly 100 years later? That speaks volumes. KF PS: So does conflating conscious perception as a subject (a person) with subjectivity as opposed to objectivity. I perceive two limes in a bowl, and add three more, then perceive five therein. That raises the issue of whether the perception of an external world is accurate, or that the operation symbolised by 2 + 3 = 5 is self evident and more, but it does not cast perception or experience or observation against reality. The dilemma of the perception of conscience remains: if objective, we are under OUGHT, if merely subjective, i.e. delusional, then mind is under serious doubt.kairosfocus
January 7, 2015
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William J Murray: If conscience is considered nothing more than a subjective feeling (albeit a strong one), then what “right” does one have to hold to their conscience if, by the same token, I feel strongly enough, and had the power to do so, I force my strong feelings on others about any number of things? That seems to be the human condition. William J Murray: Unless one is implicitly assuming their conscience to be objectively binding on others, society, and obligatory, what principle do we invoke when acting on conscience, other than “I feel like it.”? "This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs." — Charles James Napier William J Murray: Why not simply ignore the dictates of conscience? The same reason you don't ignore your hunger or thirst. It's in your nature. William J Murray: The very fact that you expect a rational explanation for behaviors/beliefs that conforms to a mutual conscience directly implies that one considers conscience more than irrational feelings, and must be justified as more than that. Ethics is based on shared assumptions concerning morality. If we agree that everyone has an equal right to life and liberty, then we can reason as to the best way to accomplish this goal, including when revolution may be justified. On the other hand, if you believe in the divine right of kings, and that duty to your liege is paramount, then the argument will fall flat, as it presumably did for George III.Zachriel
January 7, 2015
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The one thing that doesn’t abide by majority rule is a person’s conscience.
If conscience is considered nothing more than a subjective feeling (albeit a strong one), then what "right" does one have to hold to their conscience if, by the same token, I feel strongly enough, and had the power to do so, I force my strong feelings on others about any number of things? If conscience is not considered something above subjective feelings, one cannot justify defying society and putting others in danger in matters of conscience and not in other matters of personal taste. Unless one is implicitly assuming their conscience to be objectively binding on others, society, and obligatory, what principle do we invoke when acting on conscience, other than "I feel like it."? Similarly, unless one implicitly assumes an obligation to act on matters of conscience that go beyond mere subjective feelings, why bother, especially when it puts yourself and others in danger? Why not simply ignore the dictates of conscience? Why bother asking others to justify their unconscionable actions, or some unconscionable aspect of their beliefs or doctrine? The very fact that you expect a rational explanation for behaviors/beliefs that conforms to a mutual conscience directly implies that one considers conscience more than irrational feelings, and must be justified as more than that.William J Murray
January 7, 2015
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Me_Think said:
We don’t need to worry that moral values will breakdown without religious edict.
I didn't say that they would break down without religious edict. I said that without a rationally sufficient basis for moral views, rights, and obligations, there's no reason to believe they can be sustained over time. Without an inviolable premise for individual rights and freedoms, I think we can look to China to see our future. Without an objective, necessary morality that is considered superior to the state and society, I think that country serves as a good example of what to expect. When one's rights and morality are considered products of the state and not inviolable aspects of existence itself, the state becomes all-powerful and without the need to justify itself according to anything at all. If the state itself decides what "best interest" means, what good does it do to say it works in the "best interest" of the people? Unless rooted to something objective, that can mean anything. A morality that can mean "anything" means nothing. Subjective morality can mean anything. Again, I don't claim all theisms are good models - certainly not "divine command" theism - but theism is the only model that can provide the necessary grounds for individual rights, liberty and morality that is something other than "might makes right".William J Murray
January 7, 2015
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Mark Frank said:
You seem to have missed out the dialogue with the Thiest father when the child responds: “So if I found it was God’s purpose for me to bully others and take their stuff, then it wouldn’t be wrong?”
Mark, the answer would be that no "discovered purpose" trumps conscience and reason; there is no justification for that which clearly violates conscience and reason. This is what gives even atheists the right (and even obligation) to refer to conscience and reason when challenging religious doctrine that asserts "divine purpose", and why Apologists must explain divine orders/actions in the Bible; they too are bound by a conscience and reason which is assumed as an objective grounds for determinations of the morality of even that which is in the Bible - or issued from any religion or even Humanist ethics. However, under subjectivism, there is no principle by which the atheist can challenge asserted divine purpose; if "divine purpose" is the subjective arbiter (even if considered objective by the adherent) of morality by an individual, how can the moral subjectivist object? By what grounds that are not the same that support his/her own morality?William J Murray
January 7, 2015
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President Barry proclaiming his personal objective truths:
When one accepts materialism, in addition to design, one is compelled to deny other glaringly obvious truths. Here are a few: (...) A man’s body is designed to be complementary with a woman’s body and vice versa. All of the confusion about whether same-sex relations are licit would be swept away in an instant if everyone acknowledged this obvious truth.
JWTruthInLove
January 7, 2015
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kairosfocus: For, if conscience testifies as to the law that governs us, then that points strongly to the objectivity of OUGHT, i.e. to our being under moral government. That's the very definition of subjective.Zachriel
January 7, 2015
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kairosfocus (quoting): No charge of insincerity or hypocrisy can be fairly laid to their charge. Never from their lips was heard one syllable of attempt to justify the institution of slavery. They must have got over it by 1861.
Mississippi Declaration of Causes of Secession: Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery.
Texas created this strange perversion of the original Declaration of Independence.
Texas Declaration of Causes of Secession: We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.
It's about white supremacy.
Speech of Confederate Vice President Alexander H. Stephens: Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition.
Zachriel
January 7, 2015
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#105 WJM You seem to have missed out the dialogue with the Thiest father when the child responds: "So if I found it was God's purpose for me to bully others and take their stuff, then it wouldn’t be wrong?”Mark Frank
January 7, 2015
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William J Murray, Morality is something a person decides by observing, imbibing and internalizing. No one can force morality on anybody. The fear of law may dissuade many from serious immoral acts, but ultimately morality has to come from within, you can't impose it. Our society and law today are mature enough to act as a moral guide. We don't need to worry that moral values will breakdown without religious edict.Me_Think
January 7, 2015
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The one thing that doesn’t abide by majority rule is a person’s conscience.
But unguided evolution cannot explain a person's conscience.Joe
January 7, 2015
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Z, I have spent time here today that I did not really have to spare, but I should say, you may be closer to the key point than you realise, if you really mean what you just said regarding conscience as a major and non-delusional faculty of our conscious, minded lives. For, if conscience testifies as to the law that governs us, then that points strongly to the objectivity of OUGHT, i.e. to our being under moral government. And if so major an aspect of our conscious, minded lives is delusional, it points to the utter unreliability of the human faculty of reason and also of our conscious awareness of the world. Please have a read at the second linked, here. KFkairosfocus
January 7, 2015
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How Richard Dawkins' Evolution Justifies Racism and Genocide Enjoy!Joe
January 7, 2015
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VS, BTW, did you read 27 above where inter alia I took time to cite John Quincy Adams as a very relevant eyewitness tot he thought and actions of the US founders? KFkairosfocus
January 7, 2015
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kairosfocus: it has not dawned on you that Christians are not obligated to view every opinion of Luther etc as correct. Luther thought the presence of Jews was undermining Christian society. Jews wouldn't convert to the one true religion, so action had to be taken so that God could see that Christians would not countenance such disrespect. You haven't argued as to why Luther was wrong based on objective criteria, rather than simply contrary to modern sentiments concerning justice. William J Murray: Child: "If society says that it’s okay to own slaves, or that it’s okay to treat women and children like possessions, then those things would be good?" “before I can live with other folks I've got to live with myself. The one thing that doesn't abide by majority rule is a person's conscience.” — Harper LeeZachriel
January 7, 2015
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VS, I would suggest to you that simple reading of the actual history will show that in the name of science, darwinist thought led many to accept the notions of superiority of certain races and classes, and to the rise of a eugenics movement keyed to even the Darwin family in successive generations (including of course Galton), much less the ideas that we may find stressed in the infamous logos of the International conferences, cf here. Note, the theme: Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution. It was not for nothing, that a chief spokesman against the movement when it was in its heyday, was precisely Christian thinker G K Chesterton. Time for a serious rethink. KFkairosfocus
January 7, 2015
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Zachriel said:
Luther wasn’t just some person, but the founder of the Christian Reformation, before which, the Church was the arbiter of religious morality. In any case, Luther claimed to be acting for the glory of God. If morality is objective, then, well, you saw the results.
Again, I don't see how this relates to anything I have said. Claiming to be acting for God and claiming that a particular theism is the objective root of morality is not the same as an argument based on the arguendo premises of morality actually being objective or actually being subjective and the necessary, distinct logical consequences thereof. I'm not arguing for any particular version of theism; the point is that only theism can offer a philosophically sufficient grounding for a significant morality worth concerning oneself with; I'm certainly not trying to make the case that every form of theism offers such a basis.William J Murray
January 7, 2015
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How about this:
Father: “I heard about what you did in school today. It’s wrong to take things from other children just because you want those things and you’re bigger and stronger.” Child: “Why is it wrong?” Atheist father: “Well, in the first place it’s illegal, and second, society says it’s wrong to bully others and steal their stuff.” Theist father: “There is a design to things created by God; what is moral is in line with God’s purpose; what is immoral good detracts from that purpose. We can often discern the difference between the two using our conscience and reasoning. Child: “So, if it was legal, and if society said it was okay to bully others and take their stuff, then it wouldn’t be wrong?” Theist/Atheist father: “Societies have permitted and even endorsed all sorts of immoral activities; ultimately, your essential guides in determining what is moral and immoral is conscience and logic, which is why you should strive to develop and maintain those capacities as much as possible.” Child: “If society says that it’s okay to own slaves, or that it’s okay to treat women and children like possessions, then those things would be good?” Theist/Atheist father: “Certainly not. What is good is not determined by any individual, group or society, nor decreed by law, nor made so by holy edict; it is an essential aspect of existence which we interact with through our conscience and examine using reasoning.” Child: “Why does society get to say what is right and what is wrong?” Theist/Atheist father:“It doesn’t.” Child: “What if I don’t agree with what society says? If what society says is what makes a thing moral or immoral, then isn’t the fact that I disagree by definition an immoral position?” Theist/Atheist father: “On the contrary, it is your moral obligation to stand up to society and work for change when society is clearly wrong according to your conscience, even to the point of putting yourself in danger. What is more important, society, or the fundamental good purpose of existence itself?
hrun0815
January 7, 2015
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Z, that a king may be anointed by oil and even anointed spiritually, did not come from within him, rendering him inherently superior. Indeed, that is a major part of the debate in 1 Sam 8 regarding the request of the Israelites for a king, and the onward playout of the history of Saul and David. Forever, David, man after God's heart and the better king than Saul, must face the pointed words of Nathan the prophet: thou art the man. So, there is no innate superiority of a king rooted in the Judaeo-Christian, hebraically rooted tradition. Utterly by contrast with pagans who were led to worship kings as gods. Indeed, 1 Samuel 8 is a plain a rebuke to kings and their tendencies as we will ever see in ancient history:
8 When Samuel became old, he made his sons judges over Israel. 2 The name of his firstborn son was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. 3 Yet his sons did not walk in his ways but turned aside after gain. They took bribes and perverted justice. 4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah 5 and said to him, “Behold, you are old and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations.” 6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord said to Samuel, “Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them. 8 According to all the deeds that they have done, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt even to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are also doing to you. 9 Now then, obey their voice; only you shall solemnly warn them and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them.” Samuel's Warning Against Kings 10 So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking for a king from him. 11 He said, “These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen and to run before his chariots. 12 And he will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and some to plow his ground and to reap his harvest, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive orchards and give them to his servants. 15 He will take the tenth of your grain and of your vineyards and give it to his officers and to his servants. 16 He will take your male servants and female servants and the best of your young men[a] and your donkeys, and put them to his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your flocks, and you shall be his slaves. 18 And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”
It is time for a rethink. The issue was justice in government, and when one regime failed, the people -- notice the democratic impulse that int eh text is respected by God, but warned against because of the inherent dangers of monarchy -- asked for what seemed to be a workable solution. They were warned but insisted. They got a warning, but they got what they asked for. And the consequences they were warned against. At no point does it enter that kings hold any special innate status, and it is clear that kings are subject to the same premise, of justice. Which is exactly what the notion of innate superiority undermines, and not just with a king or a noble. With a class or a "race," too. Likewise, here are the words of Paul before the Areopagus in Athens, c. 50 AD, which forever undermine any attempt to ground racial superiority on some imagined spiritual or natural superiority of certain races:
Ac 17:22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,[c] 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’;[d] as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’[e] 29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
And, I repeat, any notion of inherent superiority of individual people or classes of people, leads straight to absurdities. Such is not to be found in the Judaeo-Christian framework, but instead the concept that we are all made in the image of God, which endows us with a common dignity from which stem our duties of neighbour love and therefore rights, starting with life etc. Again, time for a rethink. One that starts with the intuition that we have, that we stand with a common dignity and equality of personhood. Thence, the duties and rights that flow from such. Thus, OUGHT as a real, governing moral premise of human existence. Thence the issue that OUGHT is grounded in an IS capable of bearing that weight. An IS that must be at world foundation level and thus points to the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being. KFkairosfocus
January 7, 2015
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Father: "I heard about what you did in school today. It's wrong to take things from other children just because you want those things and you're bigger and stronger." Child: "Why is it wrong?" Atheist father: "Well, in the first place it's illegal, and second, society says it's wrong to bully others and steal their stuff." Theist father: "There is a design to things created by God; what is moral is in line with God's purpose; what is immoral good detracts from that purpose. We can often discern the difference between the two using our conscience and reasoning. Child: "So, if it was legal, and if society said it was okay to bully others and take their stuff, then it wouldn't be wrong?" Atheist father: (atheists invited to fill in the blank) Theist father: "Societies have permitted and even endorsed all sorts of immoral activities; ultimately, your essential guides in determining what is moral and immoral is conscience and logic, which is why you should strive to develop and maintain those capacities as much as possible." Child: "If society says that it's okay to own slaves, or that it's okay to treat women and children like possessions, then those things would be good?" Atheist father: (atheists invited to fill in the blank) Theist father: "Certainly not. What is good is not determined by any individual, group or society, nor decreed by law, nor made so by holy edict; it is an essential aspect of existence which we interact with through our conscience and examine using reasoning." Child: "Why does society get to say what is right and what is wrong?" Atheist father: (atheists invited to fill in the blank) Theist father: "It doesn't." Child: "What if I don't agree with what society says? If what society says is what makes a thing moral or immoral, then isn't the fact that I disagree by definition an immoral position?" Atheist father: (atheists invited to fill in the blank) Theist father: "On the contrary, it is your moral obligation to stand up to society and work for change when society is clearly wrong according to your conscience, even to the point of putting yourself in danger. What is more important, society, or the fundamental good purpose of existence itself?William J Murray
January 7, 2015
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Kf, We have 150 years worth of evolutionary biology that speaks to things such as “scientific” eugenics, and linked racism etc. Is this the eugenics that was passed into law by creation believing state legislatures? Or the racism which creation believers inflicted on their " moral equals" by kidnapping and enslaving them? Cause needs to precede effect,KF. With Darwin providing a material part of the support. In effect, human variation was held to be reflective of evolutionary processes with emerging superior/inferior varieties Is your contention that this did not occur before Darwin or are you saying that racism will use any framework to justify its existence, just as southerners used biblical text to justify slavery. Perhaps your argument is that human life was more valuable before Darwin? . . the latter being on the way to extinction. Like the creationists did with the indigenous people who stood in their way? And, a worldview that traces to matter and energy in space and time acting by purposeless, blind chance and mechanical necessity Design does not preclude such a system, for instance if the designer who wished to maximize free will , a designer who knew that such a system would by necessity result in that which he choose to design. You seem to be under the assumption that a designer is limited in his choices to those which are comprehensible to you.Certainly human designers are not so limited Perhaps the designer's purpose was for man to find purpose in what appears to be purposeless.The myth of Sisyphus. To do that would show both courage and faith. Less faith than a design which leaves obvious evidence. is inherently incapable of grounding ought save as a manifestation of might and manipulation making ‘right.’ Unless the diety is governed by the same moral system as humans, your system boils down to might makes right On ought, let’s start with something specific: we ought not to kidnap, rape and murder a young child. If one has the power to prevent the rape kidnapping or murder of a young child is one not responsible to some degree for that immorality? Thomas Jefferson who wrote that the Creator endowed men with certain inalienable rights was certainly was guilty of two of those. Why limit it to young children? Is it less wrong to murder or rape old people,young men? Or is morality just an emotional argument?velikovskys
January 7, 2015
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Hrun, kindly cf 97 just above — and the long since onward linked that you seem not to have taken reckoning of. KF
KF, kindly support your actual statement, rather than point to peripherally related material. To make it easy for you, here again is your claim: "… the attempt to deny that we are under the government of OUGHT [ends in patent, immediate absurdity]." The reality is that none of us are under the government of OUGHT. We are under man-made government with man-made rules, man-made enforcement, and man-made punishment.hrun0815
January 7, 2015
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Z, perhaps, it has not dawned on you that Christians are not obligated to view every opinion of Luther etc as correct. Luther did and said many intemperate things, and had feet of clay; nevertheless he did do some great things for which we would be well advised to remember his positive achievements. I am sure, never mind intemperate words and deeds, that he would have been utterly horrified to see where others would take such notions or words. Just as, Darwin and Galton would have been horrified to see where social darwinism and eugenics, etc would end up. KFkairosfocus
January 7, 2015
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kairosfocus: The absurdity is, that kings have no inherent superiority that makes the core rights of others subject to their rule, alienable. Kings, of course, would disagree. They are anointed by God. Monarchists also point to the necessity of social order, and that democracy had been proven to be unstable, to inevitably result in anarchy, then even worse tyrannies.Zachriel
January 7, 2015
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Hrun, kindly cf 97 just above -- and the long since onward linked that you seem not to have taken reckoning of. KFkairosfocus
January 7, 2015
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William J Murray: People claiming that some acts are condoned or ordered by God is not the same as the logical necessity that any objective, significant morality must be rooted in God (meaning, a primary being that is the ground of existence and the definitional, objective basis of “good”). Luther wasn't just some person, but the founder of the Christian Reformation, before which, the Church was the arbiter of religious morality. In any case, Luther claimed to be acting for the glory of God. If morality is objective, then, well, you saw the results.Zachriel
January 7, 2015
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WJM, Thanks. KFkairosfocus
January 7, 2015
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Z, I will pause and point out that the underlying political calvinism behind the US DOI of 1776, pivoted on the challenge of addressing the absolutist claims of nobility and more particularly monarchy, as can be seen most directly in the title for Lex Rex. The absurdity is, that kings have no inherent superiority that makes the core rights of others subject to their rule, alienable. That same basic, superiority/inferiority view of people, articulated on Social Darwinism and/or on the sort of thoughts that underlay eugenics and worse, did much harm between the late C19 and the C20. I only outline this, as any reasonably informed person commenting on this topic should be quite familiar. Let me remind of the clip from Hooker Locke used in Ch 2 Sect 5 of his 2nd essay on civil govt, as I have already cited in this thread:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80. Emphasis added.]
This is of course, in already linked material; as well as citation above. KFkairosfocus
January 7, 2015
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hrun0815 said:
And neither can anybody else.
Perhaps you mean: "... and neither can any other system of thought." However, that would be incorrect. While subjective morality can entail no necessary consequences (and thus, no substantive reason to be "moral" in the first place), nor any moral "rights" or "obligations", objective morality can entail necessary, unavoidable consequences, providing a morality worth concerning oneself with, replete with rights and obligations that provide an essential framework for deliberate, concerned, judicious behavior.William J Murray
January 7, 2015
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Zachriel said:
The second and fifth are rather interesting in juxtaposition.
I don't see how that is responsive to my post. People claiming that some acts are condoned or ordered by God is not the same as the logical necessity that any objective, significant morality must be rooted in God (meaning, a primary being that is the ground of existence and the definitional, objective basis of "good"). Me_think said:
My question is, do we need any foundation in morality?
Depends on what you ask of morality. If you wish it to be something more than subjective feelings and "because I feel like it", you need something more substantive than subjectivism to base it on.
Our society is enough to guide us through what is moral and immoral.
So, social consensus determines what is moral? If society says it's good to burn witches, then it is by definition good? One wonders, if "society" decides what is moral, how can one be moral and defy society in order to change social views? To be sure, it's quite common to have vague, poorly-thought-out references to "society" and "feelings" and such things in order to provide adequate cover for ones insistence that morality is subjective or can be attained from atheistic/materialist foundations, but upon examination such vague hand-waving falls apart.
Even theist don’t get their moral grounding from their religious texts, they imbibe it from their parents and the society.
The question is not where one gets their particular moral views from, but rather whether or not their fundamental premises actually support their conclusions and is reconcilable with how they actually live. Outside of sociopaths, we all live as if morality is an objective commodity; we cannot actually live as if it is a subjective commodity. If we follow the logic of subjective morality, it necessarily leads to the maxim: "because I feel like it", which only a sociopath could think is a valid moral maxim.
Moral foundations may have been useful during the initial period of society’s formation, we don’t need it now.
Then what fundamental principles will guide the future of moral values, what are they based on, and why should future generations care? If you can offer nothing more, fundamentally, than "because I feel like it", or "because we say so", what do you expect to happen to society as a result over time?William J Murray
January 7, 2015
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