Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Faith and Reason

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The comment threads to several recent posts have contained spirited discussions of faith, reason and the relationship between the two. This issue comes up quite often on this blog, so I decided it was time to devote a post to it. Many of the comments assume a dichotomy, namely that materialists operate solely within the sphere of reason, and theists operate solely within the sphere of faith. In this post I will demonstrate that this dichotomy is not only false, but obviously false. I will show that everyone operates in varying degrees in both spheres. I will then show that far from being a bastion of pure reason, materialism actually requires greater faith commitments than theism.

Everyone Has Faith.

Materialists can be insufferably smug when it comes to the faith/reason debate. They claim their knowledge is superior because they refuse to believe anything that cannot be confirmed by evidence. Therefore, the claim goes, their beliefs are more reliable than the beliefs of theists, whom, they say, base their beliefs on “leap in the dark” faith that is not confirmed by the evidence or, even worse flies in the face of the evidence. Just a moment’s thought will show, however, that not only is the materialist’s smug self-satisfaction unwarranted, his claim of epistemological superiority is obviously false. Materialists make leaps of faith just like the rest of us.

Materialist believe that a real world exists outside of themselves and that they have trustworthy perceptions of this real world from their senses. Surprise. Those two beliefs are not based upon any evidence. Materialists hold the beliefs based on pure faith, a frequently unacknowledged faith to be sure, but faith nevertheless. You might say, “That’s crazy talk Barry. Everyone knows the outside world exists and that we can perceive it through our senses.” Do we?

Philosophers have known for hundreds of years that data provided to us by sense impressions cannot be the basis of absolute knowledge. Renee Descartes, for example, famously demonstrated this with his “evil demon” thought experiment. In this experiment Descartes posited an evil demon “as clever and deceitful as he is powerful, who has directed his entire effort to misleading me.” The evil demon is so powerful he is capable of presenting an illusion of the entire world, including Descartes’ sense impressions of his own body, to Descartes’ mind. If such an evil demon actually existed, Descartes’ sense impressions would be misleading him, and the outside world, including Descartes’ own body, would not in fact exist even though Descartes’ sense impressions confirmed unequivocally that they did.

Here’s the fascinating part of the experiment. How do we know the evil demon does not exist? Answer. By definition, the data presented to our minds by our senses cannot demonstrate his non-existence. In fact, we cannot know with absolute certainty he does not exist. We take his non-existence purely as a matter of faith.

Or consider the movie “The Matrix.” Early on in the movie we learn the vast majority of humans live in containers filled with clear viscous goo, and all of their sense impressions of the world are fed directly to their brains by a massively powerful computer program. How do we know we do not actually live in the Matrix? Answer, just as we cannot prove the non-existence of Descartes’ evil demon, we cannot prove we are not in the Matrix.

Then there is the concept of the “Boltzman Brain,” which is a hypothetical brain that randomly forms out of the chaos of the universe with false memories of a life and false impressions of the world. Again, as a matter of pure logic, I cannot prove that I am not at this moment a Boltzman Brain.

All of these concepts are closely related and are perhaps epitomized by Bishop Berkeley’s idealism. Berkeley argued that we cannot really “know” an object outside of our mind, that the only reality we can really experience is our perception of things. Boswell records Dr. Johnson’s response to Berkeley:

After we came out of the church, we stood and spoke some time together of Bishop Berkeley’ sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it – ‘I refute it thus.’

This is is an amusing anecdote. We can imagine Johnson kicking the rock outside the church so hard that he bounced off of it. But consider this. Johnson most certainly did NOT refute Berkeley as a matter of pure logic. Boswell was correct. It is impossible to refute Berkeley’s idealism, just as it is impossible to refute Descartes’ demon, or the existence of the Matrix, or that at this moment I am a Boltzman Brain. The internal logic of these systems is seamless and flawless.

But in another very important sense Johnson did refute Berkeley. He refuted him as a practical matter. The point of Johnson’s exercise is that our senses are all we have. We have nothing else with which to perceive the universe, and, as a practical matter, we must rely on our senses or give up all hope of having any knowledge, even knowledge as basic as whether the large stone in front of me (and the foot I’m kicking it with) exists. We all have faith that the data related to us by our senses corresponds to an outside world that really exists and that can be apprehended by our senses.

In short, we are all rock kickers. Every materialist believes that when he kicks a large rock he has an actual foot with which he is kicking an actual rock. But as we have seen, the materialist must accept this conclusion as a matter of faith, not as a matter of pure reason based upon evidence.

Materialists’ faith commitments do not stop there. Consider the following statement: “The universe is subject to rationale inquiry.” This statement is a “rock kicking” statement. All scientific inquiry is based on the assumption that it is true. Nevertheless, the truth of the statement cannot be established to a logical certainty or confirmed absolutely by examination of physical evidence.

Finally, consider the very definitional presupposition of materialism, which can be reduced to the following statement: “The universe consists of space, matter and energy and nothing else.” Has this assertion been proven true? Not only has it not been proven to be true; it is incapable of such proof. The statement is what Karl Popper called a “universal statement,” of which he wrote in The Logic of Scientific Inquiry:

This is the reason why strictly existential statements are not falsifiable. We cannot search the whole world in order to establish that something does not exist [in our case, a non-material phenomenon], has never existed, and will never exist. It is for precisely the same reason that strictly universal statements are not verifiable. Again, we cannot search the whole world in order to make sure that nothing exists which the law forbids.

Do you mean to tell me that materialism is not in fact physical but metaphysical at its very foundation, and that the entire materialist enterprise rests on a faith commitment? Yes, that’s exactly what I mean to tell you, and we thus conclude that the materialist conceit that all of materialist knowledge is confirmed by evidence is not only false, but obviously false.

Reason has a limit, and at the end of reason are first principles, and first principles must be accepted on faith; they cannot be demonstrated. This is what C.S. Lewis meant when he wrote in The Abolition of Man:

But you cannot go on ‘explaining away’ for ever: you will find that you have explained explanation itself away. You cannot go on seeing through things for ever. The whole point of seeing through something is to see something through it. It is good that the window should be transparent, because the street or garden beyond it is opaque. How if you saw through the garden too? It is no use trying to ‘see through’ first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To ‘see through’ all things is the same as not to see.

Authentic Faith, For Both the Theist and the Materialist, is Consistent With Reason

Not only is the first materialist conceit – that they are immune to faith commitments –false, but their second conceit – that theists are immune to reason – is also false. Usually when a materialist argues against the epistemic status of faith, he does not argue against faith as most theists understand it and practice it. Instead, he erects the straw man of “fideism” and knocks it over, all the while pretending to have knocked over the real thing. “Fideism” is the blind leap in the dark even in the face of all of the evidence type of faith that the materialist so rightly deplores. But fideism is not the type of faith practiced by most theists. It is certainly not the faith of historic Christianity.

Authentic Christian faith is in fact faith; it is belief in something that cannot be proven absolutely by evidence. But it is not blind-leap-in-the-dark-in-the-face-of-the evidence fideism. Far from being a blind leap, authentic Christian faith is a reasoned faith. It does not fly in the face of the evidence; rather it goes one step further than the evidence. For example, Christians, by definition, believe in the existence of God. Is this belief a blind “the moon is made of green cheese” leap? Certainly not, because, in a manner of speaking, God’s existence has been proved.

Before I go on let me say a brief word about what it means to “prove” something. People mean many things when they use that word. There are many different “standards of proof.” One standard of proof is an “apodictic proof.” A is greater than B and B is greater than C. Therefore, A is greater than C. This conclusion is necessarily true as a matter of logical certainty. But there are other standards of proof, and unusually when we talk about something having been proved we mean some lesser standard than apodictic.

I am a lawyer, and when I take a case to trial my job is to “prove” my case to the jury. At the end of the evidence the judge will instruct the jury concerning the applicable burden of proof. In a civil case he will usually say I must have proved my case “by a preponderance of the evidence.” He will then tell the jury that to prove something by a preponderance of the evidence means to “prove that it is more probably true than not.” If it is a criminal case the judge will tell the jury the prosecution must have proved its case “beyond a reasonable doubt.” He will then explain that “reasonable doubt means a doubt based upon reason and common sense which arises from a fair and rational consideration of all of the evidence, or the lack of evidence, in the case. It is a doubt which is not a vague, speculative or imaginary doubt, but such a doubt as would cause reasonable people to hesitate to act in matters of importance to themselves.”

Certainly the existence of God has not been proven in the apodictic sense of the word, but it has been proven in every fair sense of the word “proven.” Wikipedia has a pretty good summary of the proofs of the existence of God (the cosmological proof, the ontological proof, the teleological proof, the moral proof, etc.) here.

Consider just one of these many proofs, the cosmological proof. We know that every finite thing has a cause. No finite thing can cause itself. The chain of cause and effect cannot be infinitely long. Therefore, an uncaused first cause must exist, and that uncaused first cause is God.

Is the cosmological proof an example of blind leap in the dark faith? Look at each step in the chain of reasoning.

1. Every effect has a cause. Who could argue with that?
2. No effect causes itself. This seems inarguable as a logical matter.
3. The chain of cause and effect is not infinite. This seems consistent with what we know about the universe; big bang theory especially supports this conclusion.
4. Therefore, there must have been an uncaused first cause. The conclusion follows inexorably from perfectly reasonable premises.

Remember, the cosmological proof is only one of many reasonable proofs of the existence of God. I encourage you to examine it and the others in more detail. If you do, I believe you will find that God’s existence has been proved. By this I mean that the existence of God has been proved beyond any “doubt based upon reason and common sense which arises from a fair and rational consideration of all of the evidence,” i.e., beyond a reasonable doubt. Certainly the evidence preponderates toward the existence of God.

This is not to say that there is no room for some doubt. When I go to trial my opponent puts on his evidence to counter mine. Similarly, many people believe that such things as the existence of evil or the suffering of innocents counts as evidence against the existence of God. It is beyond the scope of this post to answer these objections, but they have been answered.

More to the point of this post, the fact that many people believe there is evidence that points away from the existence of God does not undermine my original conclusion. Authentic Christian faith is not a leap in the dark. It is a rational faith based upon a reasoned consideration of the evidence.

Materialists often make the mistake of engaging in what I call “selective evidentialism.” Selective evidentialism is the practice of saying “unless I can touch it, see it, taste it, hear it or smell it, it must be the product of faith (the evidentialism part), but if it suits me I will accept its existence on faith (the selective part). Consider dark matter. The standard cosmological model rests on the assumption that 90% of the matter in the universe is “dark matter.” Yet no scientist has ever directly observed a single iota of the stuff. The existence of dark matter is rather inferred from certain gravitational effects on visible matter.

Isn’t this astounding! Scientists have so much faith (I use that word advisedly) in their observations, calculations and assumptions that they say that, for now at least, the existence of 90% of the matter in the universe must be accepted as a matter of faith based upon inferences. This is a reasoned faith, probably even a reasonable faith, but it is faith nevertheless. Moreover, there are competing explanations for the data that do not require dark matter. If these explanations turn out to be true, dark matter, like the ether of nineteenth century cosmology, will vanish in an instant.

What is so different about the materialist’s faith in the existence of dark matter and the Christian’s faith in the existence of God? Both beliefs are based upon a reasoned analysis of the evidence. Both beliefs are extensions from the known to the unknown. Both may be true or false.

The Materialists’ Faith Commitments Are More of a Leap in the Dark than the Theists’

In one of his debates with William Provine, Phil Johnson said, “I would love to be a Darwinist. I just can’t manage the faith commitments.”

Consider two instances of the materialist faith dilemma. First, how does the materialist answer the question: “Why is there something instead of nothing?” For the theist this is an easy question. God, the uncaused first cause, created all things that exist. But the materialist finds himself between the Scylla of an eternal universe and the Charybdis of a self-created universe. The eternal universe flies in the face of all we now know about the cosmos. There is practically universal agreement among cosmologists that the universe had a beginning. The self-created universe is a logical absurdity.

Secondly, consider biological origins. By definition the materialist must believe that particles of matter, starting as the detritus of the nuclear furnaces at the center of long burned out stars, organized themselves with absolutely no plan or guidance into first elements and then planets and then organic compounds and then into animals and plants and humans and computers and space stations. The phrase “mud to mind” does not even begin to encompass the absurdity of the proposition.

I call materialists’ belief in these two propositions “materialist fideism.” It really is amusing to listen to materialists blast leap-in-the-dark faith, when their faith commitments dwarf those of even the most fundamentalist believer.

Comments
I see the blockquote monster has bitten me as well. Only the first blockquoted paragraph belongs to StephenB - the latter three are mine - and missing completely is a paragraph that immediately followed StephenB's quote... *sigh*Tom MH
July 15, 2008
July
07
Jul
15
15
2008
06:32 AM
6
06
32
AM
PDT
StephenB @ 40: I'm glad we can agree on the epistemology of day-to-day living. Seems like fruitless sophistry to pursue the matter any further. However, I was intrigued by you last paragraph, and would like to add some comments (which will, hopefuly, bring us back to the topic of BarryA's original post). You said:
In addition to the logical factor, there is a psychological factor. All the great scientists of the past may well have known through the use of unaided reason, that the world is rational, but they needed the psychological boost that their faith provided. They needed to believe that God was responsible for the rationality, that he left the clues, and that he wanted scientists to find evidence of him in natural world. That is what they meant when they said that they were “thinking God’s thoughts after him.” It was both an act of faith and an act of reason. As Barry A has pointed out, faith and reason are fully compatible.isagreement from me, but may I restate it somewhat differently? The scientists you speak of made the assumption that God was responsible for the natural world, that the natural world obeyed underlying laws or symmetries (which were not immediately obvious; hence the need for hard work), and that those laws or symmetries could be apprehended by the mind of man. Fair enough? Now, those latter two assumptions (the natural world is governed by laws and symmetry, and they are knowable) are fundamentally axiomatic to the whole enterprise of 'science'. Theist, agnostic, or atheist, every scientist knowingly or unknowingly adheres to them. Which brings up BarryA's ultimate two points. In his first, he argues that the materialist faces a dilemna when posed with the question of origins. However, what BarryA does not mention is the option of undecideability. A good system of epistemology ought to have options for the provisional, the unknown, and the mysterious. Any scientist ought to be familiar with the state of mind that comes from working at the rock-face of the undecided proposition; in fact, if they are not wrestilng with undecided propositions, then they are probably not doing science! Furthermore, they ought to have learned early in their career, through education or experience, that the 'undecided' state of mind, vis a vis the proposition they are wrestling with, is a desirable place to be. Every great discovery in science is attended by a hundred slaps to the forehead, as the discoverer's contemporaries belatedly realize that their biases and pre-conceptions, and no other limitation, have kept that wonderful insight from their grasp. Finally, to BarryAs final comment regarding biological origins, I see no need for additional assumptions that materialists need to make other than the ones I have defined above: that the natural world is governed by laws or symmetry, and that those laws or symmetires can be grasped by the mind of man. If a theistic scientist assumes that the natural world obeys laws that represent the will of God, then what need or reason does he have to abandon that assumption now?Tom MH
July 15, 2008
July
07
Jul
15
15
2008
06:18 AM
6
06
18
AM
PDT
"Therefore, there must have been an uncaused first cause." What I don't understand is why this "uncaused first cause" needs to possess intelligence or will, let alone omni-this and omni-that. Why can we not reasonably assume, until evidence suggests otherwise, that this "uncaused first cause" was a not-yet-understood, possibly very weird, natural process?Skevos Mavros
July 15, 2008
July
07
Jul
15
15
2008
04:58 AM
4
04
58
AM
PDT
BarryA: Interesting isn't it what happens when you point out the obvious fact that we all start form first plausibles that define our point of faith: things accepted without further proof, and from which we think and live! I find JJ's remark at 17 especially revealing:
The belief of so-called materialists that the world exists is an axiom, a working postulate. The belief in a specific man-god is faith. You confuse an axiom with a faith-based belief. They are two very different things . . .
JJ, a glance at the online version of Am H dict will show this basic definition of "axiom": "3. A self-evident principle or one that is accepted as true without proof as the basis for argument; a postulate." In short, by shifting your vocabulary, you are inadvertently fostering the illusion that you are not exerting "faith" -- which MAY mean you are influenced by the idea that "faith" refers to something like "irrational belief or worldview level prejudice"; which is itself a regrettably common, contempt-driven loaded abuse of language. But, plainly, you are accepting and living by first plausibles for which you have no further proof. In a more reasonable sense of the term, "faith," -- confident trust in what is credible [often based on experience, introspection or evidence] but not proved in the logico-mathematical sense, nor is it subject to such proof -- you are in fact exerting faith. The attempts of others to dismiss the point that there are many logically possible, empirically equivalent [or "near-equivalent" . . . hence Nero's "discovery" in the Matrix that he was living in a modern form of a Plato's Cave world . . .] worlds, is equally -- and equally inadvertently -- revealing. The point, here, is that if many logically possible worlds are empirically equivalent, we must choose, and not on an empirical basis. That is, we are looking at the basic challenge of comparative difficulties analysis, the core of philosophy as praxis. We choose a worldview, perhaps under various environmental influences, but other views are possible, and simply pointing out that alternatives have difficulties fails to reckon with the fact that one's own worldview may -- and in fact does -- have difficulties, which may in fact be even worse. [Thus, we come to the classic philosophical maxim that the unexamined life is not worth living.] Maybe, this chain of argument, one that I have sometimes used to underscore the point that we all walk by faith so the issue is which one, why, will be helpful:
Perhaps the simplest way to pull these threads of thought together, is to start with an abstract example, say, claim A. Why should we accept it? Generally, because of B. But, why should we accept B? Thence, C, D, . . . etc. Thus, we face either an infinite regress of challenges, or else we stop at some point, say F -- our Faith-Point. At F, we may face the challenge of circularity vs proper basicality: are we simply begging the question, thus inevitably irrational in the end? In fact, no: 1. Reason embeds faith: We have seen above, that reason and belief -- indeed, faith -- are inextricably intertwined in our thought lives. In G K Chesterton's words, "It is idle to talk always of the alternatives reason and faith. Reason is itself a matter of faith." [cited, Clarke, p. 123.] For, if we must inevitably take some things on trust, we cannot escape exerting faith; i.e. the question is not whether we have faith, but: in what or in whom should we repose our trust? 2. Some beliefs are properly basic: Though of course, our trust in certain things is provisional, we plainly have a perfect right to believe a great many things non-inferentially. (Indeed, this is the largest single bloc of our beliefs -- consider for a moment how many sense impressions you had today, and how many of them you for very good reason took as accurate without even an instant's hesitation.) And, as James pointed out, in contexts where alternatives are forced, momentous and live, we not only have a further right to make a passional decision as to which alternative to accept, but we cannot avoid choosing some option or other. 3. We may compare alternative Worldviews: Worldviews are clusters of core beliefs about important things concerning ourselves, the world and ultimate reality. Notoriously, they bristle with difficulties and unresolved challenges. But, if we compare faith-points F1, F2, F3 . . . Fn, relative to (1) factual adequacy, (2) coherence and (3) simplicty/ad hocness, we can make a rational choice of our faith-points. Thus, we are not reduced to vicious circularity. 4.We may recognise appropriate degrees of warrant: When we assess arguments, we can recognise that there is a gradation in degree of warrant that is possible for given classes of cases, as Simon Greenleaf has pointed out -- as have many others all the way back to Aristotle. So, where logical or mathematical demonstration is possible, we can insit on that. Where only moral evidence is possible, i.e. on matters of fact, we can respect that. When we come to basic beliefs, we can evaluate whether or not the belief is properly basic -- at least on a case by case basis -- by comparing the new belief with others that are already credibly deemed so. [For instance, Plantinga has argued that believing in God requires a similar process to that which leads us to believe in other minds.] This approach can be properly termed, reasonable faith.
So, let us acknowledge that while we must live by faith, that faith can and should be a reasonable faith. [Of course as appendix 6 the always linked will show, I have certain reasons for believing that the commonly encountered worldview of evolutionary materialism, for all its vaunted appeal to "science" is precisely not a reasonable faith.] GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 15, 2008
July
07
Jul
15
15
2008
04:10 AM
4
04
10
AM
PDT
BarryA @7: I agree with the thrust of your post, i.e., that everyone, in order to live, must make certain indemonstrable assumptions, and that atheist materialists have, in addition, a set of their own special indemonstrable assumptions. If living by an indemonstrable assumption is living by “faith”, then indeed everyone lives by one faith or another, and hard-core atheists live by more faith than most. However, like others on this thread, I’d invite you to expand upon your thoughts in this section: “Paul (the apostle, not Maier) writes that if Christ has not been raised, our faith is in vain. If Jesus body were found, I would succumb to despair, because at that point I would know that materialists’ assertion that our existence is pointless would be true.” Assuming that you are speaking for yourself in the last sentence, and not simply restating the view of the apostle Paul, the question is: why do you think this? Even from a purely Hebraic standpoint, this would seem to be an over-reaction. If Jesus was not raised, then historical, orthodox Christianity would be false. But then Christians would still be free to embrace Judaism, which worships the same God that Jesus worshipped, and which possesses the same creation doctrine that Jesus endorsed. Isn’t it “over the top” to suggest that for believing Jews “existence is pointless”? And then, of course, as has been pointed out, you have other belief systems which are not materialistic, such as Hinduism and Islam and native forms of polytheism and pantheism. For believers in these things, existence is not “pointless”. For us Platonists, of course, it is not necessary for Jesus to have arisen from the dead. We would seek the Good, the True, and the Beautiful regardless of any historic events that happened in Israel, we would orient our souls to the superabundant Good via the pursuit of wisdom and the practice of justice, and we would see evidence of the Reason behind the world in the order of nature and in the imitative reason of the human mind. Your words imply that there is an either/or choice: either Christ or a hopeless form of atheism. If that isn’t what you meant, perhaps you can clarify. If it is what you meant, I for one cannot imagine why you would insist on such a limited range of possibilities for understanding The Whole. T.Timaeus
July 15, 2008
July
07
Jul
15
15
2008
01:47 AM
1
01
47
AM
PDT
Barry, "Paul (the apostle, not Maier) writes that if Christ has not been raised, our faith is in vain. If Jesus body were found, I would succumb to despair, because at that point I would know that materialists’ assertion that our existence is pointless would be true." With all due respect, I find this comment almost bizarre. Are there not many monotheists in the world who are not Christian? Does the Moslem or Hindu or American Indian who spoke so often of "The Creator" have no reason to believe in God? I admit that the loss of Jesus, or perhaps of his resurrection would be a confusing blow, but does that really touch your belief that this universe requires a God? Just asking!avocationist
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
08:58 PM
8
08
58
PM
PDT
Tom MH wrote:
Atom: perhaps. Do you think that is a common occurence worth worrying about?
You have faith it is not the case, so you don't worry about it. BarryA's point exactly. (I'm sure you would begin to worry if somehow you gained knowledge that your perceived world was an illusion, akin to Neo in the Matrix movies.)Atom
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
05:39 PM
5
05
39
PM
PDT
Tom MH, You said "From an evolutionary POV, a creature whose senses did not correspond well with the environment would face differentially poorer chances of survival than one whose senses did. I thought this would be obvious." Michael, this is basic ID. No one in ID really disagrees with this. The environment culls out ill fit organisms and eliminates them from a particular environment. The question is what is the origin of the species that can adapt. To believe that natural forces create them requires that one has to act on faith which is what the post is all about. The post is not about whether our senses perceive the world correctly or incorrectly despite the number of people that seemed to have gotten side tracked on that. It is about the faith that one has in one's world view and what that faith is based on.jerry
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
05:02 PM
5
05
02
PM
PDT
----Tom MH: "Every creature crawling on this planet is making sense out of it’s immediate neighborhood, or at least trying to. Hypocrites all?" I am agreeing with you for the most part. I think there are some things that we can know independent of faith. We can "know" the natural moral law, for example, at least ina primitive way, without taking any leap of faith at all. I think that I can know that you exist independent of me, because I can test the principle. Further, I think that we can know something about everything that we observe, meaning that we can apprehend facts even though we may not be able to assign meaning to them. We can know through observation that there is a certain order in the universe and that there must be an orderer behind it. Further still, I think that we can know that there is a rational principle in the universe, or to put it in Biblical terms, we can know that there is design in the universe, otherwise St. Paul would not have said that those who deny the obvious are "without excuse." So, I am not fully on board with those who would say that we can no nothing at all without faith. On the other hand, there is a point at which faith takes over and is indispensable. I'll put it this way: If we are in a matrix or in a dream, then we don't really know even though we think we do. If, on the other hand, if we are not in a matrix or a dream, then we really do know some things, at least at the primitive level. One can have knowledge (true belief) without certitude or certitude without true knowledge (delusion), however, to have certitude and knowledge, faith is required. In other words, you must believe that you are not in a matrix to have both knowledge and certitude. So, I am not really disagreeing with you, I am simply clarifying my own context. In addition to the logical factor, there is a psychological factor. All the great scientists of the past may well have known through the use of unaided reason, that the world is rational, but they needed the psychological boost that their faith provided. They needed to believe that God was responsible for the rationality, that he left the clues, and that he wanted scientists to find evidence of him in natural world. That is what they meant when they said that they were "thinking God's thoughts after him." It was both an act of faith and an act of reason. As Barry A has pointed out, faith and reason are fully compatible.StephenB
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
03:51 PM
3
03
51
PM
PDT
Atom: perhaps. Do you think that is a common occurence worth worrying about? bevets: *non-plussed* Sorry, I wasn't able to follow your link, unless I am supposed to register for something?? At any rate, your tiger situation fails to address my observation (that Natural Selection provides a mechanism for the good correlation of senses with reality) since it was based on an example of mis-understanding not mis-perception. (I did perceive the tiger, didn't I?) Nor are we going to get very far evaluating the survival possibilities of organisms bent on self-destruction. Gentlemen, I am afraid I must logoff for the evening. Thank you for the discussion!Tom MH
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
03:44 PM
3
03
44
PM
PDT
For the Christian layman, I highly recommend: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist.EndoplasmicMessenger
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
03:32 PM
3
03
32
PM
PDT
Tom MH From an evolutionary POV, a creature whose senses did not correspond well with the environment would face differentially poorer chances of survival than one whose senses did. I thought this would be obvious Think again. Suppose you come across a tiger and you wanted the tiger to eat you, but you thought the tiger would ignore you unless you ran away as fast as you could. This belief would save your life but would not correspond with Reality. Natural Selection 1 Reality 0bevets
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
03:12 PM
3
03
12
PM
PDT
Tom MH wrote:
[Pe]rhaps we can talk about it, agree on whether we mutually sense the same thing, and come up with some rules for how we might go about agreeing on what is true (or provisionally true, with meta-rules for difficult or undecideable propositions) and what is not..
And perhaps I don't exist. In which case, you are only agreeing on what "really" exists with an equivalent of your imaginary unicorn friend (who happens to have 100% corresponding sense experiences to you.)Atom
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
03:00 PM
3
03
00
PM
PDT
Atom,
In the same way, you have no idea whether or not the world your perceive and interact with exists only to you or if it exists in reality, apart from your perception. That was Berkely’s point and BarryA’s point. You take its objective existence on faith alone, without ANY evidence to support that belief. (Indeed, you can have none.) Belief without evidence of any kind is not only faith, but blind faith
Perhaps we can talk about it, agree on whether we mutually sense the same thing, and come up with some rules for how we might go about agreeing on what is true (or provisionally true, with meta-rules for difficult or undecideable propositions) and what is not. Isn't that what science is? Or are all ways of knowing just various forms of "faith"? (In which case we can economically snip off the "blind" part.)Tom MH
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
02:33 PM
2
02
33
PM
PDT
bevets:
Theists have ‘very GOOD reason’ to assume God has designed our senses to perceive Reality. Atheists have no corresponding reason. If you are going to be a consistent atheist, you have NO resaon to assume your senses correspond with Reality and not a Naturally Selected dream.
From an evolutionary POV, a creature whose senses did not correspond well with the environment would face differentially poorer chances of survival than one whose senses did. I thought this would be obvious. I am curious as to why you assume God would design your senses to perceive reality. Is this a testable proposition? Or is it, too, a matter of faith? To StephenB: You have me at a disadvantage, as you have clearly read both Aquinas and Kant more than I (and that was more years ago than I care to comtemplate just now). However, I am not convinced of the need to invoke God in order to make sense of the world surrounding me, or to make rationality itself possible. Every creature crawling on this planet is making sense out of it's immediate neighborhood, or at least trying to. Hypocrites all?Tom MH
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
02:17 PM
2
02
17
PM
PDT
Tom MH, You need to take a leap of faith in thinking your sense world really exists apart from your perception of it. If you want to call your impressions and sensations the "real world", you are free to do so, but that does not mean that it really exists. If you were insane and had an imaginary unicorn that talked to you, interacted with you and you acted upon, your "real unicorn" would not correspond with reality. In the same way, you have no idea whether or not the world your perceive and interact with exists only to you or if it exists in reality, apart from your perception. That was Berkely's point and BarryA's point. You take its objective existence on faith alone, without ANY evidence to support that belief. (Indeed, you can have none.) Belief without evidence of any kind is not only faith, but blind faith. In this case, as you point out, it is necessary faith, in order to get through our day. I won't disagree that faith is necessary in life.Atom
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
01:54 PM
1
01
54
PM
PDT
Tom MH: I do think that the comment sense argument you allude to is very powerful, and it should not be dismissed too abruptly. You are right on several counts: To deny the that there is another realm other than our own consciousness or to deny a correspondence between the two realms or to believe that someone or something is simply injecting phantom experiences into our brain goes against every experience every individual has ever had. After all, we don’t just respond to life events, we cause life events. First, our world acts on us, and in that sense the physical event precedes the mental event. The light excites the retina, and then we see; the sound waves find our ear, and then we hear. Second, we also act on the world, meaning that we cause events to happen just as events cause things to happen to us. It is almost as if the faith needed to acknowledge this common sense perspective is so negligible as to not really count for much. Indeed, it is the denial of that correspondence (Kantian idealism) that has caused the hyper-skepticism so rampant in today’s thought. The problem is, though, that we have to start somewhere. We have to begin with rudimentary principles of rationality that must be taken on faith. Example: Is the law of non-contradiction true with respect to the world? (A thing cannot be and not be at the same time). Is the law of non-contradiction true with respect to our minds (A thing cannot be true and false at the same time) What is truth? (Is it not the correspondence of the mind to reality?) We must begin all rational initiatives by assuming that the answer to those primary questions is yes. St Thomas understood this point and posited a realist epistemology; Kant did not understand it and mistakenly proposed a nominalist epistemology. Sooner or later, we have to bring God into the picture. Indeed, there are really only two approaches to this problem: [A] Theism: Assume that God set up a correspondence between our rational minds and the rational universe so that one makes sense with the other or [B] Materialism: Publically ignore the point that rationality is not possible without that correspondence and deny that the world makes sense, while privately conducting all your affairs as if the there really was a correspondence and act as if the world really did make sense. For me, this kind of hypocrisy is intolerable. I have much more respect for existentialists and the prophets of despair than for materialists who say that, even thought there is no rational principle, we can nevertheless create one (and an equally arbitrary system of ethics around it). That is totally illogical. At least existentialists, unreasonable thought they may be, face the consequences of their irrationality. Materialists want to have it both ways: They want to deny the reality of the rational principle (correspondence) and then try to squeeze some life out of it anyway. If there is no rational principle, then the existentialists are exactly right, and, to their credit, they are prepared to face the logical consequences of the anti-intellectualism. For them, the universe is absurd and the only real question is whether or not to commit suicide. That is the way materialists would feel if they had a brain. (They have already conceded that they do not have minds)StephenB
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
01:30 PM
1
01
30
PM
PDT
should be 'What is...' As an atheists your epistemological feet are planted firmly on thin air.bevets
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
01:28 PM
1
01
28
PM
PDT
I’m not sure that I would equate that assumption as “faith”, although I suppose if you or BarryA wish to define it so then there is little I can do to stop you. Except perhaps to point out that you at least agree that I have “very GOOD reason” to make that assumption. So is it really a leap of faith, or just garden variety rationality? Whs your 'very GOOD reason'? Theists have 'very GOOD reason' to assume God has designed our senses to perceive Reality. Atheists have no corresponding reason. If you are going to be a consistent atheist, you have NO resaon to assume your senses correspond with Reality and not a Naturally Selected dream.bevets
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
01:24 PM
1
01
24
PM
PDT
Atom:
Tom MH wrote:
I quite disagree. My senses gets me through the living room (and down the interstate) unharmed and intact; ergo, I have very GOOD reasons to believe they correspond reliably with the real world.
No, you only have very GOOD reasons to believe they correspond reliably with the WORLD YOU SENSE (your sense of touch may be in the Matrix as well.)
We can complete the circularity by admitting that the WORLD I SENSE is the "real world" I am speaking about. And if I am indeed embedded in the Matrix, and yet the "real world" responds predictably, follows laws reliably, and behaves rationally to my senses, then other than the provisionality that "this might only be a dream", I am safe to proceed with my assumption. As I do. And as you admit, we all do. It would be bewildering to try to stagger through the day thinking otherwise. I'm not sure that I would equate that assumption as "faith", although I suppose if you or BarryA wish to define it so then there is little I can do to stop you. Except perhaps to point out that you at least agree that I have "very GOOD reason" to make that assumption. So is it really a leap of faith, or just garden variety rationality?Tom MH
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
12:51 PM
12
12
51
PM
PDT
. Sorry for not closing my tags.todd
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
12:36 PM
12
12
36
PM
PDT
When I hear those who place great faith in the explanatory power of science to eventually fill in our current gaps of knowledge, I like to ask them if the definition what is science is discovered scientifically. This question opens the door (and sometimes eyes) to the philosophical frameworks which guide our interpretations of experience.todd
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
12:21 PM
12
12
21
PM
PDT
[quote] The belief of so-called materialists that the world exists is an axiom, a working postulate. [end quote] It stops being a "working postulate" when one insists that it is a true description of reality, and that all descriptions and hypothesis and theory must conform to that view. That is when it moves from postulate towards faith.William J. Murray
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
12:10 PM
12
12
10
PM
PDT
Tom MH wrote:
I quite disagree. My senses gets me through the living room (and down the interstate) unharmed and intact; ergo, I have very GOOD reasons to believe they correspond reliably with the real world.
No, you only have very GOOD reasons to believe they correspond reliably with the WORLD YOU SENSE (your sense of touch may be in the Matrix as well.) BarryA's point was that you lack any good evidence that your sense world (the world you see, feel, hear, taste, etc) is not a computer simulation or a demon induced delusion. You take it as the "real" world on faith, as we all do.Atom
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
12:07 PM
12
12
07
PM
PDT
But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind? ~ Charles Darwin see Exposition If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. ~ J.B.S. Haldanebevets
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
12:04 PM
12
12
04
PM
PDT
Excellent post, Even if ppl were to disagree with us on our faith, surely they can't say we don't have a well justified and rational belief in it? (well they prb do anyways...) Nice testimony and intellectually stimulating defense of Theism.jpark320
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
11:35 AM
11
11
35
AM
PDT
BarryA I quite disagree. My senses gets me through the living room (and down the interstate) unharmed and intact; ergo, I have very GOOD reasons to believe they correspond reliably with the real world. I ignore them - and the truck in the lane next to me - at my peril.Tom MH
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
11:22 AM
11
11
22
AM
PDT
StephenB: I hear you, once you cede that ground, all is lost. I'd side with Calvin [BOO!!! HISSS!! ;-)], or maybe John Frame's perspectival presuppositionalism -- in that knowledge of ourselves is intertwined with knowledge of God, etc. (I guess it's been said that Frame is trying to blend Van Til with Aquinas.)wnelson
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
11:13 AM
11
11
13
AM
PDT
-----wnelson: "Also, let’s not forget Hume’s observation about causality — or Kant’s need to save science from Hume, and so forth. Knowledge, knowing, etc. are loaded with presuppostions, each or which has it’s own pitfalls." Perhaps you would agree with me that Kant tried to solve a problem that wasn't really a problem. In that sense, both he and Hume militated against the principles of right reason. To abandon realist epistemology for Kantian idealism, Kantian nominalism, and, by extension, Kantian skepticism, is to forfeit the entire rational enterprise. I submit that St. Thomas had it right: the images in our mind really do reflect the essences of realities outside of our mind. If we don't start there, we end up going nowhere.StephenB
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
10:59 AM
10
10
59
AM
PDT
Barry, A great post. I've long said we all have faith, the difference is what we have faith in.todd
July 14, 2008
July
07
Jul
14
14
2008
10:44 AM
10
10
44
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply