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Fixing a Confusion

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I have often noticed something of a confusion on one of the major points of the Intelligent Design movement – whether or not the design inference is primarily based on the failure of Darwinism and/or mechanism.

This is expressed in a recent thread by a commenter saying, “The arguments for this view [Intelligent Design] are largely based on the improbability of other mechanisms (e.g. evolution) producing the world we observe.” I’m not going to name the commenter because this is a common confusion that a lot of people have.

The reason for this is largely historical. It used to be that the arguments for design were very plain. Biology proceeded according to a holistic plan both in the organism and the environment. This plan indicated a clear teleology – that the organism did things that were *for* something. These organisms exhibited a unity of being. This is evidence of design. It has no reference to probabilities or improbabilities of any mechanism. It is just evidence on its own.

Then, in the 19th century, Darwin suggested that there was another possibility for the reason for this cohesion – natural selection. Unity of plan and teleological design, according to Darwin, could also happen due to selection.

Thus, the original argument is:

X, Y, and Z indicate design

Darwin’s argument is:

X, Y, and Z could also indicate natural selection

So, therefore, we simply show that Darwin is wrong in this assertion. If Darwin is wrong, then the original evidence for design (which was not based on any probability) goes back to being evidence for design. The only reason for probabilities in the modern design argument is because Darwinites have said, “you can get that without design”, so we modeled NotDesign as well, to show that it can’t be done that way.

So, the *only* reason we are talking about probabilities is to answer an objection. The original evidence *remains* the primary evidence that it was based on. Answering the objection simply removes the objection.

As a case in point, CSI is based on the fact that designed things have a holistic unity. Thus, they follow a specification that is simpler than their overall arrangement. CSI is the quest to quantify this point. It does involve a chance rejection region as well, but the main point is that the design must operate on principles simpler than their realization (which provides the reduced Kolmogorov complexity for the specificational complexity).

Comments
KF and SA: Here’s a case where UD did really bad. Searched both sites for the term “genomics” this year only: UD: 0 (zero, null, nada, nesuno, nic, nichevó) TSZ: 3 Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome!Dionisio
December 16, 2016
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KF and SA: Here's a case where TSZ got more posts than UD: Searched both sites for the term “chromosome” this year only: UD: 3 TSZ: 4 Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome!Dionisio
December 16, 2016
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Silver Asiatic,
But it’s probably true also that TSZ took some activity away from here.
If they took some activity away from UD, then looking at the results posted @180-188 one could say they took non-scientific whining away from UD, which is healthy. I really don't miss those politely dissenting interlocutors. GP and you were the main players in the "heated" discussion that took place here a short while ago. The discussion was very serious and productive. The "harsh" critics were not needed at all. Actually, most probably they would have taken some seriousness away from the discussion. And most certainly they would have distracted GP's and your attention away from the central topic. Maybe I would not ban them, but prefer they voluntarily go away somewhere else with their nonsensical whining. Their site seems to be open to all views, because I saw a few posts by ID-friendly folks. Perhaps those ID-friendly posts are the best they can read in their site. The anti-ID posts I saw in that site looked like the hogwash comments they used to post here. If that's the case, then this site not only didn't lose anything of value, but this site has gained seriousness after the politely-dissenting interlocutors moved away.Dionisio
December 16, 2016
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Interesting research, Dionisio. I would guess they're just trying to be skeptical about things, and not necessarily scientific. ?
Just wanted to add some ‘spice’ in this discussion thread that seems overwhelmingly disproportionate on ID comments. ???? The politely dissenting interlocutors kept off this discussion. Perhaps that’s a healthy sign? Maybe they’re running out of arguments or even seriously considering switching sides?
I like your optimism. But it's probably true also that TSZ took some activity away from here. I, for one, would welcome more opposition here. But I also think anti-ID hatred has died down somewhat and that's a good thing. Perhaps we should invite more thoughtful ID critics to join us -- or open a thread with that intent.Silver Asiatic
December 16, 2016
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KF, Yes, agree on that. Glad you have brought up this topic here. Well, they brought it up there, but you pointed at it. Actually, that's one thing that has gone ridiculously wrong in the area of morphogen gradient formation and interpretation, which by the way was the topic of the simple question professor Larry Moran failed to answer correctly in another thread in UD. For quite long time it was generally assumed that diffusion alone was responsible for the morphogen gradient formation. Lately new research has discovered that in a substantial number of cases diffusion alone does not resolves the conundrum. A few of those recent papers are referenced in another thread in UD. Now, one question is why would highly educated thinking people accept that obviously incomplete idea as the solution to the problem? A 7-year-old child would have realized something else was missing in that picture. I think it is related to the pebble story you pointed at too, isn't it? Now, aside from that, did you see (posted @180-187) how poorly that other site did in the comparisons of biology-related OPs? And some of the few OPs that were counted were actually written by ID-friendly folks. What does that tell us? Which site is more serious about science-related discussions? Just guess. :) PD. I would not pay much attention to what they write somewhere else, unless it's serious. In this case it doesn't seem so.Dionisio
December 16, 2016
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D, Chesil beach was at the top of TSZ, and it is a subject where the owner there was corrected here at UD years ago. The hydrodynamic sorting that grades pebble size along that beach -- smugglers used to tell where they were in the dark by feeling pebble size -- is not equal to functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated rich information. It does not exhibit high resistance to algorithmic compression. and so forth. KFkairosfocus
December 16, 2016
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KF: After a few comparisons it looks like comparing USA and Poland on their total medal counts at the last Olympics in Rio. Basically two different categories. Now I forgot what was it that you asked me to look at? :)Dionisio
December 15, 2016
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KF: Searched both sites for the term “centrosome” this year only: UD: 1 TSZ: 0 (zero, null, nada, nesuno, nic, nichevó) Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome!Dionisio
December 15, 2016
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KF: Searched both sites for the term “meiosis” this year only: UD: 2 TSZ: 0 (zero, null, nada, nesuno, nic, nichevó) Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome!Dionisio
December 15, 2016
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KF: Searched both sites for the term “mitosis” this year only: UD: 1 TSZ: 0 (zero, null, nada, nesuno, nic, nichevó) Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome!Dionisio
December 15, 2016
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KF: Searched both sites for the term “proteomics” this year only: UD: 1 TSZ: 0 (zero, null, nada, nesuno, nic, nichevó) Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome!Dionisio
December 15, 2016
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KF: Searched both sites for the term “epigenetics” this year only: UD: 22 TSZ: 5 Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome!Dionisio
December 15, 2016
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KF: Searched both sites for the term "gastrulation" this year only: UD: 1 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/homologies-differences-and-information-jumps/ TSZ: 0 (zero, null, nada, nesuno, nic, nichevó) Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome!Dionisio
December 15, 2016
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KF: Searched both sites for the term "tRNA" this year only: UD: 6 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/antibiotic-resistance-evolution-at-work/ https://uncommondescent.com/junk-dna/junk-dna-back-with-a-vengeance/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/here-we-report-a-new-cell/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/an-encounter-with-a-critic-of-biological-semiosis/ https://uncommondescent.com/physics/roger-highfield-on-walking-by-faith-and-not-by-sight-in-science/ https://uncommondescent.com/chemistry/alicia-cartelli-on-agiogenesis/ TSZ: 0 (zero, null, nada, nesuno, nic, nichevó) Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome!Dionisio
December 15, 2016
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KF, I took a quick look at the web site you pointed at. I did it because you referred to it. Looking at UD takes most of my spare time. Here's a minor observation: Morphogenesis is one of the many interesting areas in biology. Morphogens are signal molecules involved in the morphogenesis. I've been trying to learn a little of that stuff lately. Have to humbly admit that reading biology papers is very difficult for me. It's a challenge. Also, the amount of research information coming out of wet and dry labs is quite large and it seems to increase. Out of curiosity I found how many OPs mentioned the term "morphogen" in those two web sites, just this year. Here are the results: UD = 5 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-highly-engineered-transition-to-vertebrates-an-example-of-functional-information-analysis/ https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/my-thoughts-on-the-krauss-meyer-lamoureux-debate/ https://uncommondescent.com/news/cells-poll-their-neighbours-before-moving-around/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/bipedalism-regulatory-area-missing-in-humans/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/two-quick-questions-for-professor-coyne/ TSZ = 2 http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/non-dna-structural-inheritance/ http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/the-reasonableness-of-atheism-and-black-swans/ However, it seems like most of the above linked articles (if not all) were written by ID-friendly folks.Dionisio
December 15, 2016
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KF, Please, you may disregard my previous comment @178. You referred to another web site, right? I'll take a look at it to see what you pointed at.Dionisio
December 15, 2016
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KF @177: Perhaps that topic is well above my pay grade: http://www.bing.com/search?q=tsz&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IENTSR&pc=EUPP_ Sorry, I don't use other search engines. I'm loyal to MSFT. Most of my software development work has been on top of their framework. No iOS or Android, except through Xamarin. :) Please, remember I'm just a student wannabe. Still highly appreciate your insightful OPs and comments, but not all are at my level. The same with gpuccio's explanations. You guys are too technical for me sometimes. Would you lower the bar a little for me this time? Thank you.Dionisio
December 15, 2016
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D, just popped by TSZ for the first time in many Moons. Chesil beach -- pebbles grade per position along the beach --exhibiting high algorithmic complexity? hydrodynamic sorting is law, with statistical underpinning. Thus, in principle highly compressible even if we do not know how to write the code well. Where, too, there is no identifiable functionality from the pebbles that is critically dependent on particular organised arrangements and couplings of pebbles, as opposed to say D/RNA or protein molecules. Remember, the Mandelbrot set is in fact highly compressed by a relatively simple criterion in z. KFkairosfocus
December 15, 2016
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KF @173: [regarding the comment @165] Yes, your persuasive argument convinced me. Strong teleology seems visible in those bad fake label knock-offs too. BTW, @165 i kind of misbehaved like a troll, didn't i? Just wanted to add some 'spice' in this discussion thread that seems overwhelmingly disproportionate on ID comments. :) The politely dissenting interlocutors kept off this discussion. Perhaps that's a healthy sign? Maybe they're running out of arguments or even seriously considering switching sides? :) PS. Enjoyed reading 174,175 too. Valid points. Thank you.Dionisio
December 15, 2016
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Origines, 160:
I would like to propose another additional premise: Q explains the presence of A, B, C and D. IOWs the presence of Q makes logical sense, given the presence of A, B, C and D.
I adapt, Q1, Q2, Q3 . . . Qn are possible alternatives, and of these Qi is the best by certain criteria. In short, I argue that there is an implicit inference to the best current explanation in a lot of inductive reasoning. One form of such is, There is a case of examples A, B ,C . . . M. They seem to share a common genus, never mind differences D1, . . . Dm. We now see candidate T, which shares the relevant core characteristics G1, . . . Gk. We argue, this is best explained by T being in the same genus, and thus the same core, never mind differentia Dt. Therefore, our provisional assignment is that T is in G, and we infer on this that it will exhibit the range of characteristics and behaviours {G} as presently understood and as may be further elaborated. We then predict and may test future observations. This also shows the underlying premise of stable order in the cosmos, leading to coherence, consistency and predictability. But, given that we are imperfect in knowledge, such is inherently provisional and open-ended. In the case of the design inference, the points here are fairly obvious. KF PS: Notice how fruitful this no-trolls discussion is? (Responsible critics welcome. Trolls, we got some reserved tickets to Norway. [HYP: Agitated dysfunctional behaviour of trolls reflects over-heating addling brains; proposed test, ship 'em to Norway and see how their behaviour moderates in their temperature zone of origin.])kairosfocus
December 15, 2016
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UB, you are right, specification takes functional organisation and implied intelligence and agency in my view. Then, back to our Celestron 8-inchers (or bigger! [All I want for Christmas is a 20" reflector 'scope and mini observatory, Santa!). Cell based life uses C-chemistry, aqueous medium, terrestrial planets and Nitrogen, to get us to proteins. It turns out that the physics and circumstances of a cosmos to get us to the operating point we observe, are very fine tuned. Specification on steroids, in fact. The full force of design theory comes out when the world of life and the fine tuned universe are bridged through the chemistry of life and getting to the chemistry of life. KF PS: As in, what is the role of information in the world of life and the cosmos? Where does that point to?kairosfocus
December 14, 2016
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D, even bad fake label knock-offs made in sweat shops somewhere, are designed. And, believe you me, they meet someone's design goal! (That mocking laughter and chinking you hear is someone laughing and shaking his money-bags as he dances devilishly all the way to the bank. [Gaol for he!]) KFkairosfocus
December 14, 2016
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Origenes: "Philo and Cleanthus: “Whaat??”" Strange people, philosophers! :)gpuccio
December 14, 2016
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KF: "I note that analogies are involved in a lot of induction as well, the root reasoning involved in science. " Absolutely! :)gpuccio
December 14, 2016
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Origines and GP: Excellent point. I note that analogies are involved in a lot of induction as well, the root reasoning involved in science. It is ill advised to saw off branches on which we must all sit. KFkairosfocus
December 14, 2016
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GPuccio @167, Again, profound insight, which requires reflection.
GPuccio: Therefore, we infer that others, too, have those conscious representations accompanying their outer behaviour.
Without this particular inference from analogy there would be neither a basis, nor a reason to engage in rational debate with one another. It’s therefore amusing that Hume chose to present his criticism by depicting three philosophers named Demea, Philo, and Cleanthes debating the inference from analogy. It would have been great if Demea had said: “Well guys, I do hope that we are all aware of the fact that our trust in the inference from analogy is prerequisite to this debate.” Philo and Cleanthus: “Whaat??”Origenes
December 14, 2016
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gpuccio @167: Excellent points. Thank you.Dionisio
December 14, 2016
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Origenes: "I find this an extremely interesting insight. Really. Thank you very much." Thanks to you. I am happy that you appreciate that point, because I think it is very important, and often misunderstood. :) Indeed, consciousness is a strange epistemologic object. We can say that our consciousness has cognition of consciousness itself in two different ways: a) We have direct cognition of what consciousness is in ourselves, because we directly perceive our consciousness. So, we can say that for us our consciousness is a fact, a fact which is the foundation of any other knowledge. b) We have indirect cognition of the consciousness of other beings, and that cognition is only an inference, and it is based on analogy: that's why it is strongest for other human beings, because their appearance, physical body, behaviour, language, cognitive activities, manifestations of feeling and emotion, and so on, have the highest similarity with our own. And the important point is: we know directly that, in us, those behaviours etc. are strictly linked to conscious representations: our conscious representation, our precious basic facts. Therefore, we infer that others, too, have those conscious representations accompanying their outer behaviour. So, the important point is: one of the most basic convictions of each of us (because who, among us, really doubts that his friends and fellow human beings are conscious?) is based on an inference from analogy. Not on pure logic and deduction, not on mathematics or sophisticated forms of reasoning. Juts an analogy, but so strong, so obvious to the mind and to feeling and to intuition, that nobody can really doubt it.gpuccio
December 14, 2016
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Bartlett: It used to be that the arguments for design were very plain. Biology proceeded according to a holistic plan both in the organism and the environment. This plan indicated a clear teleology – that the organism did things that were *for* something. These organisms exhibited a unity of being. This is evidence of design. It has no reference to probabilities or improbabilities of any mechanism. It is just evidence on its own.
I like this paragraph. All the same, we found a mechanism, and it might even be obvious that we would. It takes two things to specify something in a material world. Why? Because nothing specifies anything. To specify something takes an organizational device, whereby one thing serves as a medium of information and another thing establishes what is being represented. And if nothing is ever specified, then life isn't going to happen. It would have no way to become or remain organized. We can look through a telescope and see what 15 billion years of no specification looks like. But to get life going you have to have enough of these irreducible two-part relationships formalized in the system in order to have the informational capacity you'll need to describe the system -- and of course, they are all formalized simultaneously by being encoded in the very memory they make possible. The life-cycle of the cell requires it. Howard Pattee asks the question "How do we know when a measurement has been made?" The answer he gives is "When there's a record of it".Upright BiPed
December 13, 2016
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gpuccio @162:
As for me, if I find a watch in a field, I have absolutely no doubt that it is designed.
Well, if it's Swiss then most probably it's designed, otherwise it could be a copy, and sometimes a bad imitation. :)Dionisio
December 13, 2016
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