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Four fallacies evolutionists make when arguing about biological function (part 1)

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First of all, I want to apologize for shamelessly copying the title and structure of a recent post by VJ Torley. VJ, I hope you will pardon me: imitators, after all, are an undeniable mark of true success! 🙂

That said, let’s go to the subject of this post. I have discussed a little bit about biological function in my previous posts, and I have received many comments about that topic, some of them from very good interlocutors (I would like to publicly thank here Piotr and wd400, in particular). From my general experience in this blog during the last few years, I would like to sum up some of the more questionable attitudes and arguments which I have witnessed most frequently from the “other side” about this concept. Indeed, my purpose here is to catch not so much the specific arguments, but rather the general perspectives which are behind them, and which I believe to be wrong (that’s why I call them “fallacies” in the title).

So, here we go. First the whole list, then we analyze each individual point.

1. The fallacy of denying the objectivity of function.

2.  The fallacy of overemphasizing the role of generic function.

3. The fallacy of downplaying the role of specific function.

4. The fallacy of completely ignoring the highest form of function: the procedures.

I will deal with the first three issue in this post, and with the fourth in a later post.

1. The fallacy of denying the objectivity of function.

This attitude takes the form of an obstinate resistance to the concept itself of function, as though it were something which does not exist. So it happens that, as soon as we IDists start talking about functional specification, there is always someone on the other side ready to question: “Yes, but how do you define function?”. Or to argue that function is just a subjective concept, and that it has no role in science.

Many times I have simply answered: “Hey, just look at some protein database, like Uniprot. You will easily find, for each protein listed there, the voice: “Molecular function”. And usually there is one or more functions listed there. Is that bad science? Are you going to write to the people who run Uniprot asking them what do they mean by that word?”

rusty-185531_640The truth is that practically everybody understands perfectly what function means, and the attitude of denying the concept is just that: simple denial, motivated by the (correct) conviction that the concept itself of function is definitely ID friendly. .

However, the more sophisticated among our interlocutors will not deny function in such a gross way, but they will probably try to argue that the concept is obscure, vague, ill defined, and therefore not reliable. Here we find objections such as: “What do you mean exactly with the word?” or “To what kind of function do you refer?” or “Function can change according to how we define the context”. There is some truth in these thoughts, but in no way such objections are a real problem if we treat the concept of function correctly.

For example, in my previous post “Functional information defined” I have given the following definitions:

I will try to begin introducing two slightly different, but connected, concepts:

a) A function (for an object)

b) A functionality (in a material object)

I define a function for an object as follows:

a) If a conscious observer connects some observed object to some possible desired result which can be obtained using the object in a context, then we say that the conscious observer conceives of a function for that object.

b) If an object can objectively be used by a conscious observer to obtain some specific desired result in a certain context, according to the conceived function, then we say that the object has objective functionality, referred to the specific conceived function.

I will stick to those definitions.

So, function can be objectively defined, even if some reference to a conscious observer conceiving and recognizing it is always necessary.

It is perfectly true that different functions can be defined for the same object. There is no problem there. It is also true that functions can be stratified at different levels. Uniprot correctly lists “molecular functions”. So, for example, hexokinase has the molecular function of binding ATP and phosphorylating glucose or other hexoses, That is what I call the “local function”, the immediate biochemical effect of the molecule. But we can also say that the role of hexokinase is to start the glycolysis process and therefore contribute to the extraction of energy from food in the form of ATP, a role which would not be immediately obvious from the local function (which, instead, consumes ATP). This is a meta-function, because it describes the role of the enzyme in a wider context. We can say that the local function contributes to the meta-function.

In ID theory, local functions are specially interesting when we try to compute the functional complexity of a single protein. For that, we must refer to its immediate biochemical effect. But the meta-function is specially interesting too, when we try to analyze the complexity of a whole system of molecules, such as a protein cascades. In this kind of analysis, the concept of irreducible complexity is very important.

The important point is: denying function, or denying that it can be treated objectively in a scientific context, is a fallacy.

2.  The fallacy of overemphasizing the role of generic function.

This is generally what I call the concept of “any possible function”, which is so often invoked by darwinists as a reason to believe in the power of natural selection and of the neo-darwinian RV + NS algorithm.

The reasoning is more or less the following: as NS is not looking for anything particular, it will detect everything possible which is “useful”. IOWs, NS has no prejudices, and therefore it is very powerful, much more powerful of old good intelligent design, which is confined to intelligent options. That was one of Petrushka’s favourite arguments, but in different ways it has been proposed by many darwinist commentators here.

Now, I hate quoting myself again, but if you look at the above definscrapyardition of “function”, you will see that everything can be functional in some context. Function is not a rare thing, because, as already said:

If a conscious observer connects some observed object to some possible desired result which can be obtained using the object in a context, then we say that the conscious observer conceives of a function for that object.”

Now, as we can conceive of a lot of desires (that is certainly a very human prerogative), functions are very easy to get. In any context, we can use practically anything to obtain some result. That’s why I rarely throw away anything because, you know, “it could be useful, sooner or later”.

Does that reinforce the darwinist concept that “any possible function” is relevant?

Not at all. Quite the contrary. Just because possible functions are everywhere, it is easy to see that only some specific functions are really relevant in a specific context.

home-office-336377_640So, if I go to my attic, I can maybe find some use for any kind of junk that I may find there. But, if I happen to find a forgotten working computer there, I can certainly use it in a very specific way.

So, I would say that there is a great difference between finding some piece of wood which could perhaps be adapted to some use, and finding a working computer. The piece of wood is an example of “any possible function”, while the computer is an example of specific, complex function.

And, as anyone should understand, even if I find 1000 pieces of wood in my attic, that will not give me a working computer. IOWs, simple generic functions do not naturally add to a complex specific function.

So, why am I saying that darwinists tend to overemphasize the role of generic function?  The reason is simple: generic function is all they have, all they can deal with. Their only “engine of variation”, which is RV, can only, at best, generate simple generic function, nothing more. So, what do we do when we have only such and such?   We overemphasize the importance of such and such. Not because it is important, but because it is the only thing we have. An old fallacy, but always a common one.

3. The fallacy of downplaying the role of specific function.

The simple truth is that, especially in a system which is already complex, functional changes usually require complex interventions. Indeed, the addition of a truly new function to an existing complex system requires not only the complexity implicit in the function itself, but also the complexity necessary to integrate the new function in the existing system.

As already said, in the biological context there are two different ways to look at functions: what I call the “local function”, IOWs, the immediate biochemical activity of the molecule, and the “meta-functions”, IOWs, the general results of the activity of that molecule in the whole system.

Let’s take a molecule as an example: ATP synthase. A classic.

It is a very good example, because:

a) It is a very old molecule, already present in LUCA, before the archaea-bacteria divergence, almost 4 billion years ago.

b) It is a very complex molecule: it is made of two different parts, F0 and F1, each of them made of many subunits, and each subunit is a complex protein.

c) It is a very functional protein, indeed a wonderful molecular machine which transforms a proton gradient into stored biochemical energy in the form of ATP, working very much like a mill.old-windmill-96688_640

d) It is a very conserved protein. Let’s take only the subunits alpha and beta, which make most of the F1 part. a multiple alignment between: the human protein, the archaea protein (methanosarcina barkeri) and the bacterial protein (E. coli) showed 176 identities for the alpha subunit and 202 identities for the beta subunit. A total of 378 perfectly conserved aminoacid positions in just two of the many subunits of the molecule, along the whole tree of life.

e) Its local function is very clear: it synthesizes ATP from the energy derived from a proton gradient, transforming the flow of H+ ions into a mechanical rotation which in turn couples the phosphate molecule to ADP.

f) Its meta-function is equally clear: it generates the energy substrate which makes all cellular life possible: ATP.

Now, 378 identities after about 4 billion years during which all possible neutral mutations had time to happen mean just one thing: those 378 AAs must be there, and they must be what they are for the molecule to work.

This is a very good example of a very specific and complex function. In a complex context (cellular life), where the function is useful because there are a lot of individual processes whic h depend on ATP to exist. It is not the piece of wood in the attic. It is a supercomputer, an amazing molecular machine.

Well, are darwinists  curious, concerned or worried because of such specific complex functions which can be found in the old attic of OOL? Not at all. They are confident that they can be readily dealt with. There is an appropriate tool, usually called “the just so story”. For a good example, just read the Wikipedia section about ATP synthase, the part under “Evolution of ATP synthase”. Have fun.

The problem is: complex functional proteins simply cannot be explained. So, why should we think that they must be explained? After all, we can find so many generic functions in our attic: small variations in a gene which can give antibiotic resistance through one or two AA mutations, small changes in the affinity of an existing esterase which confer a nylonase activity through a couple of mutations, the selective spread in specific populations of the heterozigote state of drepanocytosis (one mutation) which gives some resistance to malaria. With all those good pieces of wood which can be used to fix some old chair, who cares about those stunning supercomputers which crowd our attic? They are just there, let’s not be fastidious about the details.

Well, that’s enough for the moment. We will discuss the “procedures” fallacy in next post.

 

 

 

Comments
Mark Frank- We don't ask anything of evolutionism that it doesn't claim to have or claims to be able to explain. Again yours is the mechanistic stepwise position, ie it is a bottom->up paradigm. OTOH it is a given that we have to determine design exists before we can determine how that design was implemented. That means design is a top-> down paradigm, meaning design detection comes first and then we answer all the questions we can in order of their relevance. And guess what? That is how it works with archaeology, forensic science and SETI.Joe
July 2, 2014
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Gpuccio I am sorry. I didn't realise that you accepted a gradual approach. Then let's have a hypothesis about the steps in this gradual process which we can discuss. After all that is what you ask of non-design hypotheses. Whether those steps are in living creatures or non-living is not critical. After all every OOL theory starts off with a non-living state and most non-ID theories hypothesise some non-living processes before life begins (and the boundary between life and non-life is fuzzy). Of course I am asking too much of you to put forward such a hypothesis. But this is what I mean when I say ID and non-ID are both unlikely to make any progress with OOL or the creation of ancient complex molecules. There just isn't the data for either.Mark Frank
July 2, 2014
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This seems relevant: Peering into Darwin's Black Box: The cell division processes required for bacterial life? The irreducible complexity and functional specification of living organisms "turtles all the way down". It would be a miracle for materialistic processes to produce that. Oh wait, is that what is meant by "the miracle of life"?Joe
July 2, 2014
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"This is simply untrue." This should say, it is irrelevant. What is required at the OoL is the rise of informational constraint and control from a non-information environment. Such a thing has never been witnessed, so he has no "advantage" as he wishes to suggest.Upright BiPed
July 2, 2014
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Mark: OK, let's leave aside the question of functional information here. We have debated it enough. First of all, I have never dismissed gradualism. I said: "I cannot realistically conceive of any gradual “generation” of a prokaryotic life from simpler “forms” of life of which we have no track, no example, no cognition" Emphasis added. The generation of the first life by intelligent engineering can have been as gradual as you like, in the window of time we have. As I said: "I have no idea of the details of the implementation (like anybody else). I don’t know if it happened in one day, in a million years or in 300 million years. I don’t know if it happened in a single small pond or everywhere in the planet. If it was unicentric or multicentric." So, it did not happen in one billion years (there was not the time), but maybe in 300 million. The point is, I don't think it happened through simpler forms of biological life. You ask: " What could it have looked like to an observer on that magic day? Did all the necessary elements rush from in from where ever they happened to be and combine themselves into the correct molecules (while remaining stable) and then place themselves in the correct positions and then magically start working?" Maybe it was something like that, but not necessarily "suddenly". To an observer, it could have looked as a special modification of a natural environment, where very special things slowly happened under some apparent outer control. New molecules, new conditions. More or less, what OOL theorists think happened unguided. :) I admit, the final step must have been rather sudden and impressing. Impressing because we have never witnessed anything like that. We always see life coming from life. Even if we have everything that is needed in a test tube, the genome, the membrane, the proteins, we have no idea of how to combine that into a living prokaryote. It's what Sal Cordova calls the "humpty dumpty" argument. That must have been really something. Of course, I am just speculating. But you asked me to speculate, and I always try to follow your promptings.gpuccio
July 2, 2014
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I have the advantage that gradual change has been observed in current life...
This is simply untrue. Mark asks "Did all the necessary elements rush from in from where ever they happened to be and combine themselves into the correct molecules". He asks this question, even though it is absolutely certain (within any rational, evidence-based evaluation of the material facts) that the only physical condition suitable to organize original life on earth was through informational constraint. So has Mark (or anyone else) ever seen a gradual process whereby information-based constraint and control rises from a non-information environment? Of course he hasn't. The only examples that Mark can provide, whereby de novo informational constraint appears, are the direct products of intelligent agency. So it would seem, if Mark wishes to understand the empirical support for an unguided rise of information-based control, perhaps he should be asking what material conditions are required for that phenomenon to occur - but these are topics he has specifically pointed out as being ones his wishes to avoid discussing.Upright BiPed
July 2, 2014
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Sir Francis Crick talked about biological information in his "Central Dogma". For example:
Information means here the precise determination of sequence, either of bases in the nucleic acid or on amino acid residues in the protein.
Each protein consists of a specific sequence of amino acid residues which is encoded by a specific sequence of processed mRNA. Each mRNA is encoded by a specific sequence of DNA. The point being is biological information refers to the macromolecules that are involved in some process, be that transcription, editing, splicing, translation and functioning proteins. No one measures the biological information in a random sequence of DNA nor any DNA sequence not directly observed in some process. The best one can do with any given random DNA sequence is figure out its information carrying capacity. You couldn't tell if it was biological information without a reference library. And Leslie Orgel first talked about specified complexity wrt biology:
In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity.
As far as I can tell IDists use the terms in the same way. Dembski and Meyer make it clear that it is sequence specificity that is central to their claims. That is the whole point- if sequence specificity matters the tighter the specification the less likely blind physical processes could find it.Joe
July 2, 2014
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Mark Frank:
As you know I think “functional information” is just a way of saying “improbable according to known natural processes” and dressing it up in fancy maths.
And that is just crazy talk as functional information exists regardless of its origin and the math has been done in peer-reviewed papers.
If you can show the outcome is probable according to a natural process then suddenly it is no longer a significant amount of information.
That is incorrect. The amount of functional information does not depend on its origin. It only has to do with its specificity- as in how many different sequences can account for the same functionality- again all in peer-review.
You dismiss gradualist ideas because you cannot conceive how they could work.
We dismiss them because they are untestable.
I have the advantage that gradual change has been observed in current life while nothing remotely like what you suggest has been observed.
LoL! Yes gradual change has been observed and the observed gradual change does not lead us to the inference that it can actually construct multi-protein machinery. There isn't any microevolutionary even that would lead us to infer the same processes can lead to macroevolution.Joe
July 2, 2014
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Gpuccio I have tried to avoid our old dispute. As you know I think "functional information" is just a way of saying "improbable according to known natural processes" and dressing it up in fancy maths. The proof is simple. If you can show the outcome is probable according to a natural process then suddenly it is no longer a significant amount of information. So I am not impressed by the ability of ID theory to legitimately explain the appearance of complex functional information. All it is saying to me is that if we can't find a convincing natural explanation then we should assume a designer did it. But let's get to the main point. You write:
When I say that I believe that LUCA, or something not too different, must have been the first form of life on our planet, it’s because I cannot realistically conceive of any gradual “generation” of a prokaryotic life from simpler “forms” of life of which we have no track, no example, no cognition.
But can you really conceive of a process that creates LUCA with all the complications you mention without any gradual build-up? As you say no one knows anything much about how life started. You dismiss gradualist ideas because you cannot conceive how they could work. Well I dismiss big bang ideas because I cannot conceive how they could work. What could it have looked like to an observer on that magic day? Did all the necessary elements rush from in from where ever they happened to be and combine themselves into the correct molecules (while remaining stable) and then place themselves in the correct positions and then magically start working? I have the advantage that gradual change has been observed in current life while nothing remotely like what you suggest has been observed.Mark Frank
July 2, 2014
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Mark: Let's try to see things objectively. As you know, I am not in favour of a "miracle" perspective for ID. ID is not an easy way of answering any possible question invoking some omnipotent designer. The only "miracle" which ID theory can legitimately explain if the appearance of complex functional information: we do know that conscious intelligent designers can generate that kind of arrangement of matter, while everything else cannot. This is a perspective derived from our experience of design, and not a religious form of faith. Now, we have these huge quantities of complex functional information in biological beings. ATP synthase is only a small example. We in ID believe that the first scientific duty of any unbiased scientist is to consider a design paradigm for the explanation of this huge problem, which cannot be reasonably explained with the current non design paradigms. Design is the only known source of complex functional information, and it is therefore the natural candidate to explain biologic function. Now, there is no need to assume an omnipotent designer to explain impossible miracles. But we do have to explain what certainly happened. Here, again, we have top be realistic. As I have said, many cases of appearance of new biological information. like the gradual appearance of new protein domains, can be explained by some "smooth" form of design. Even in that case, however, the design hypothesis has definite formal advantages versus the neo darwinian hypothesis, as I have tried to explain: not only the real power to overcome probabilistic barriers, as design always does, but also the realistic possibility of happening in limited populations, of not requiring functional intermediaries which in the neo-darwinian scenario have to be fixed before the following steps can realistically take place, and so on. These are in no way "miracles": they are properties of the design process, the properties which make design, even in its human form, much more powerful than the RV + NS hypothesis. But there is more. As I have said, there are special events in natural history which are "exceptions" to the general, gradual trend that we can hypothesize for the rest of it. There are probably many, but I would definitely sort out OOL and the Cambrian explosion (maybe also the Ediacara) as very strong examples. OOL is definitely the strongest problem. Now, it's not that I, or we IDists in general, are inventing or emphasizing the problems inherent in OOL to defend our theory. The problems inherent in OOL are already big enough, and there is really no need to emphasize them. May I remind some of them? a) The relatively "small" temporal window between OOL and LUCA b) The simple observation that all life that we know is based on the contemporary cooperation of (at least) DNA, RNA and proteins, in a basic chicken-egg relationship one with the others. c) That all life as we know it is based on metabolism, to extract energy from the environment and create an absolutely unlikely entropic scenario. d) That all life as we know it is based on far from equilibrium processes, much more than any other system in reality. e) That all life as we know it is based on active membranes, and the active separation and differentiation of an inner environment and an outer environment. f) That the simplest forms of autonomous life that we know are prokaryotes, and that even the simplest prokaryotes fully implements all the above properties. h) That LUCA was, to all effects, practically a full prokaryote. And so on. Now, those are not inventions of ID. When I say that I believe that LUCA, or something not too different, must have been the first form of life on our planet, it's because I cannot realistically conceive of any gradual "generation" of a prokaryotic life from simpler "forms" of life of which we have no track, no example, no cognition. So, if I have to hypothesize some form of "massive" design at the beginning, to explain the engineering of the first forms of life, it's not because ID theory requires it, or because I like miracles. It's because it seems to have happened that way, and I have no reason to change facts to adapt them to my theories. Design can explain even such a "sudden" transition. It can. It's not that it is an "omnipotent" explanation for anything. The simple fact is that the true difficulty, even for OOL, is not how it happened, but how such a huge quantity of intelligent information could be generated. I have no idea of the details of the implementation (like anybody else). I don't know if it happened in one day, in a million years or in 300 million years. I don't know if it happened in a single small pond or everywhere in the planet. If it was unicentric or multicentric. I know nothing of that, even if I really hope that we will know, one day, and that facts will become available to answer those questions. The only thing I know is that, in some way, a lot of all the functional information that we still observe in the living kingdom came into existence in a few hundred million years, on a planet where no life existed before, and in the final form of prokaryotes. A form which still remains probably the most successful form of life we know. This is a miracle, but it's not my fault. For a design paradigm, it is almost a miracle, but can still be understood and explained. For a non design paradigm, it is a complete impossibility, a paradox, a defeat of reason and of knowledge.gpuccio
July 2, 2014
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It would be a miracle if natural selection produced ATP synthase.Joe
July 2, 2014
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Paul Giem #58
Given the ubiquity of ATP synthase, and the centrality of ATP for energy metabolism, I think gpuccio and VJTorley are right; assuming a LUCA, the code for ATP synthase must have been part of its genome.
This seems reasonable. It certainly goes back a long way.
And I agree that it makes sense from this perspective to assume that LUCA very closely approximates FUCA, which means that ATP synthase must have had its code inserted into the very first cell; which means that the code must have arisen de novo.
Why does it make sense to assume this?  It is of course impossible to disprove but it is tantamount to saying a miracle occurred. 
I don’t see, nor have I seen someone who claimed to see, a Darwinian path to ATP synthase, let alone one that does not involve living organisms. Now, I could be wrong. There might be a Darwinian pathway that simply hasn’t been discovered. But it doesn’t seem that way, and I see no reason to exercise faith against the presently available evidence that a Darwinian pathway will eventually be found. When I was taught science, skepticism was supposed to be the appropriate stance, not faith.
Skepticism is certainly an appropriate stance towards any specific hypothesis – Darwinian or otherwise. May I be a bit sceptical about the hypothesis that the very first living thing had the whole ATP mechanism inserted by an undefined process? 
Part (a) is just plain wrong. I have it on reliable authority that yeast has suddenly (within 1 generation) developed the ability to produce not only natural human proteins like insulin and tissue plasminogen activator, but brand new (or at least modified) enzymes such as Glargine insulin and Retevase. In fact,Mycoplasma capricolum has been transformed into Mycoplasma mycoides in 1 generation. It is true that we have not seen this happen at present in nature not assisted by known intelligent agents (as opposed to conjecture in the distant past). But for intelligent design, at least some of the time the changes can be sudden.
I should have added the clause – “in nature”. Clearly we can do all sorts of things with genetic engineering.
Part (b) is almost as unconvincing. Suppose that an intelligence were to discover that adding 500 genes with appropriate promoters and repressors could transform a Spriggina egg into a trilobite. Unfortunately, the trilobite is male, and without female genes, it will die. However, the intelligence can save the knowledge, and continue experiments until it discovers that if it changes 30 of the proteins and adds 20 new ones, and removes 10, with appropriate adjustments in the promoters and repressors, it can make a female. It can now repeat the experiment with the male, and as long as their fertile life spans overlap, the species can take off on its own. Male and female is a huge problem for Darwinism; for intelligent design, not so much.
There is a bit more to the environment that having a member of the opposite sex. But I will go with the argument (a ). If you assume a designer with sufficient powers it can make the environment be whatever it wants. That’s the advantage of ID. It can handle anything.
Two problems: 1. Dawkin’s Weasel program can be used by an intelligent designer to vastly speed up the process, as an intelligent designer can select for genotype and not just phenotype.
In the line above I said: However, without a method of measuring the speed of change that we would expect under each hypothesis this is meaningless.  Sure an ID can do anything including moving the process along much faster. But unless we know how fast NS can go this means nothing.
2. Your conditions may very well not apply to an intelligent designer, as noted above.
We dealt with that above.
It is not a practical necessity for intelligent design to ignore complex steps. It is a practical necessity for Darwinian evolution to ignore complex steps. But that may be to the disadvantage of Darwinian evolution compared to intelligent design. And admitting that, while honest, would be quite awkward for one arguing against ID. As gpuccio has said, I’m glad I don’t have to argue against ID.
I said this was true if you accepted my two conditions. You don’t accept the conditions.  Basically you believe miracles happen from time to time and large chunks of genome are inserted into life by some undefined process. You are right. It is impossible to argue against this. This doesn’t mean that there is much from an ID point of view to be gained from studying the development of complex proteins.  If you get into any difficulty you just assume a miracle happened at that point. This is not a fruitful approach to science. It is a practical necessity for anyone who is not assuming miracles to ignore the development of large proteins.  There just isn’t sufficient data.Mark Frank
July 2, 2014
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Paul: Thank you for your wonderful contributions. When I said that you are one of my favourite commenters, I really meant it. And everybody can see why! :)gpuccio
July 1, 2014
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Mark Frank, Given the ubiquity of ATP synthase, and the centrality of ATP for energy metabolism, I think gpuccio and VJTorley are right; assuming a LUCA, the code for ATP synthase must have been part of its genome. And I agree that it makes sense from this perspective to assume that LUCA very closely approximates FUCA, which means that ATP synthase must have had its code inserted into the very first cell; which means that the code must have arisen de novo. I don't see, nor have I seen someone who claimed to see, a Darwinian path to ATP synthase, let alone one that does not involve living organisms. Now, I could be wrong. There might be a Darwinian pathway that simply hasn't been discovered. But it doesn't seem that way, and I see no reason to exercise faith against the presently available evidence that a Darwinian pathway will eventually be found. When I was taught science, skepticism was supposed to be the appropriate stance, not faith. Now, of course, if one finds universal common descent problematic, and I do, then your comments (#44 and #36) do not make ID as problematic as you may think is the case. But even if one accepts common descent, as long as ID is allowed, I don't think #44 quite makes the case that there is no difference in difficulty between ID and Darwinian evolution for ATP synthase. Let's look at the reasoning again:
2) Viable organism do not differ greatly from their immediate parent(s ). I am not sure if you accept this so I will add a justification. (a ) We never observe viable organisms that do differ greatly from their parents. (b ) It is hard to see how an organism that did differ greatly from its parents could be viable as the environment has to change with it – it needs mates, food, shelter etc
Part (a) is just plain wrong. I have it on reliable authority that yeast has suddenly (within 1 generation) developed the ability to produce not only natural human proteins like insulin and tissue plasminogen activator, but brand new (or at least modified) enzymes such as Glargine insulin and Retevase. In fact, Mycoplasma capricolum has been transformed into Mycoplasma mycoides in 1 generation. It is true that we have not seen this happen at present in nature not assisted by known intelligent agents (as opposed to conjecture in the distant past). But for intelligent design, at least some of the time the changes can be sudden. Part (b) is almost as unconvincing. Suppose that an intelligence were to discover that adding 500 genes with appropriate promoters and repressors could transform a Spriggina egg into a trilobite. Unfortunately, the trilobite is male, and without female genes, it will die. However, the intelligence can save the knowledge, and continue experiments until it discovers that if it changes 30 of the proteins and adds 20 new ones, and removes 10, with appropriate adjustments in the promoters and repressors, it can make a female. It can now repeat the experiment with the male, and as long as their fertile life spans overlap, the species can take off on its own. Male and female is a huge problem for Darwinism; for intelligent design, not so much. You go on to say,
If you accept (1 ) and (2 ) then what would an explanation of the origin of a complex protein look like? It would be a sequence of small changes from some ancestor to the protein – each step of which was viable. The only difference between an ID explanation and a NS explanation would be that you propose it would happen more quickly under ID – presumably in the sense that there would be less time where no changes happened. However, without a method of measuring the speed of change that we would expect under each hypothesis this is meaningless. In any case it is almost impossible for either theory to provide evidence for such a sequence.
Two problems: 1. Dawkin's Weasel program can be used by an intelligent designer to vastly speed up the process, as an intelligent designer can select for genotype and not just phenotype. 2. Your conditions may very well not apply to an intelligent designer, as noted above. So your conclusion
So far being a fallacy ignoring complex proteins I suggest it is a practical necessity for both camps (and indeed any other theory of evolution that shares assumptions (1 ) and (2 ).
is inaccurate; It is not a practical necessity for intelligent design to ignore complex steps. It is a practical necessity for Darwinian evolution to ignore complex steps. But that may be to the disadvantage of Darwinian evolution compared to intelligent design. And admitting that, while honest, would be quite awkward for one arguing against ID. As gpuccio has said, I'm glad I don't have to argue against ID.Paul Giem
July 1, 2014
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Piotr (#30),
But it apparently only took 2 mutations to evolve it
Two crucial mutations (among a number of others), assuming — simplistically — that nylB’ is the “parent” of nylB rather then its “sister”. They actually differ at 46 residues, though most of the differences, even the non-synonymous ones, don’t seem to make any appreciable functional difference. Even one of the two crucial substitutions would boost the nylon-degrading activity of nylB’ 20-fold on its own. So yeah, a small modification can make a lot of difference. It can give the protein a new function: the ability to attack a new type of bond not known in nature before the advent of the nylon industry
Thank you for the concession. I agree that what looks like random mutation and natural selection (and could well be, apparently pace Joe, although Joe is right that it could have been designed), was responsible for the two new mutations in NylB' that apparently produced NylB. But the change in function, or, if you like, the new function, is really "a small modification." Some Darwinists have been making a mountain out of a molehill. BTW, What gpuccio did is the best kind of science. If you work on the Higgs boson, there is, IIUC, only one machine in all of the world that can produce the data, and in order to interpret the data, one must be well versed in subatomic theory, the geometry of wires and exact timing of signals, and statistical theory, to name just a few areas of expertise. The results, although theoretically reproducible, in practice can only be reproduced in one place, and will not be repeated unless some government funds them. Most of us have to rely on the word of the investigators, which is the near polar opposite of science. Gpuccio's experiment on Ohno's proposition, on the other hand, can be reproduced by any intelligent 17 year old with a standard computer using the internet. It is science for the masses. Three cheers for gpuccio!Paul Giem
July 1, 2014
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Thank you gpuccio
This is, IMO, the best argument for common descent: for that to happen, there must be a physical “continuity” between species.
To me that same physical "continuity" is a common design. No need to reinvent proteins when modified versions of the original design work just fine.Joe
July 1, 2014
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vjtorley: Thank you for pardoning me! I was a little worried... :) Yes, that post of yours was very good. You say: "For what it’s worth, I personally have no trouble with the idea of ATP synthase having been created along with the first living thing, as it seems to be a very old enzyme, which is found in all domains of organisms." As you can see in my post #54 to Mark, I do agree with you on that point.gpuccio
July 1, 2014
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Mark at #48: The question was not for me, but I would answer: yes. I think that OOL must have been rather "sudden". Why do I think that? Because everything we know points to that. All existing theories about OOL are really bad myths. The simple fact is, we know no example of autonomous life simpler than prokaryotes. I have said many times, here, that I believe that LUCA was also FUCA. So, IMO, the desing of OOL must have been "special": not essentially different, but extremely "concentrated" and "massive". That's what I think. I can well change my mind, is and when facts will point to something different.gpuccio
July 1, 2014
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Mark at #44: Yes and no. I certainly agree that studying small changes is easier, and it must be done. But explaining big changes, even by correctly observing what we see for small changes, is equally important and an absolute priority. There are some other points which I would like to make. It is not only a question of time. NS, to work, requires the fixation of each small functional step. Design does not require that. It can happen, more or less gradually, in a very small population, and a new species could expand (be fixed) only when it is well engineered. That can explain the lack of intermediaries, while in NS intermediaries should in part leave tracks, because by definition each step should more or less be fixed and expanded. Another important difference is that designed engineering can happen in non coding, non functional sequences, and be "released" only when the new protein is ready to be translated and used. while again NS cannot act in that way. By the way, such engineering in non functional sequences corresponds very well to many recent observations, as you certainly know. The neo darwinian model can explain those observations only by pure random "luck". My point is: the design model and the neo darwinian model make very different predictions about what can or should be observed. They are both scientific theories, because they are both falsifiable. So, let's look at facts. To all facts, and with an open mind.gpuccio
July 1, 2014
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Joe: I have explained a few times here why I accept common descent and what I mean by that. But I will do that gladly again for you, who are a good friend. I don't know if you will agree or not, but I will try to be clear about what I think. First of all, I must say that I completely agree with Sermonti about the point that we don't understand "what makes an organism what it is". Indeed, that will be the main point of the second part of this discussion, the one about "the procedures". That said, my main reason for accepting CD is that I think it is at present the best explanation for many observations which it would be difficult to explain differently. I must also say that I am not really interested in fossils and morphological aspects. As those who read my posts certainly know, my interest is in molecular complexity. That's why Sermonti's point, certainly true, has not much bearing to the reasons why I accept CD. The main reason, indeed, is exactly the same reason why I fully embrace ID: the proteins. As I see it, the best scenario we can build for the general proteome as we can observe it today is the following: a) About 2000 protein superfamilies make the existing functional proteome. Each superfamily is unrelated to all the others at sequence level, structure level, and function level. For simplicity, let's stick to this very high level of classification in the following discussion. b) About half of those superfamilies originate very early, let's say between OOL and LUCA. The rest originates at different times during the rest of our planet's life. c) The best way we can describe the proteome as we observe it is by the so called "big bang theory of protein evolution". That means that a new protein (a new superfamily) appears at some time in some being, and then it is found in many other species which appear after, including often mammals and humans. But the point is, as time goes on, the protein usually remains the same at the structure and function level, but gradually changes at the sequence level. That means that, in general, the more two species are distant, the more the same protein is different at sequence level. You need not believe that by faith. I have verified that concept many times by blasting a lot of different proteins. There are certainly exceptions, but the general pattern is very clear. I give you an example here: Human myoglobin (154 AAs) has the following alignments with different vertebrate species: a) Lethenteron camtschaticum (Lamprey, a jawless fish): Identities: 36 Positives: 70 e value: 5e-15 b) Callorhinchus milii (a shark, cartilagineous fish): Identities: 62 Positives: 91 e value: 1e-35 c) Sarda chiliensis (a bony fish): Identities: 71 Positives: 90 e value: 3e-37 d) Iguana iguana (a reptile): Identities: 113 Positives: 132 e value: 3e-80 e) Gallus gallus (a bird): Identities: 118 Positives: 132 e value: 1e-81 f) Mouse (mammal): Identities: 129 Positives: 141 e value: 1e-89 g) Chimp (primate): Identities: 153 Positives: 153 e value: 2e-108 Now, I am not trying to validate any tree of life, I have just followed the trivial classification of vertebrates. And there are exceptions. For example, amphibia score less than fish, with only 46 identities and 79 positives for cytoglobin (myoglobin was apparently lost in amphibians). However, can you see how strong the pattern is? And it is the same for most known proteins. Now, the important point is: myoglobin is more or less the same protein in all these species. It has similar structure, it binds heme, it carries oxygen. There are certainly some differences, but the molecule is essentially similar. So, the best explanation for the observed "gradient" of differences at sequence level, with conservation of structure and function, is: neutral mutations. That is the big bang theory of proteins: a new protein appears already functional, and retains its structure and function throughout evolution, but it changes through time at sequence level because it can tolerate some mutations which do not affect its structure and function. IOWs, it "traverses" its functional island, without going out of it (because negative selection would prevent that). This is, IMO, the best argument for common descent: for that to happen, there must be a physical "continuity" between species. The protein changes and is passed from species to species with its changes. Now, I am not saying that CD is necessarily the only possible explanation for that, but it is, as far as I understand, the best explanation available. Exactly like ID is the best explanation for the functional conservation of protein sequence, CD is the best explanation for the neutral divergence of the same proteins. I am not saying that CD is necessarily universal, or that I know how it happened, if gradually or in sudden steps. I simply don't know. Facts will tell. I am only sure that it happened by design. Fact have already told that, in abundance.gpuccio
July 1, 2014
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Hi guys, catching up after a busy day! I see I owe a few answers here. Let's go in order.gpuccio
July 1, 2014
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Hi gpuccio, Thanks for a fascinating post, and by the way, I'm perfectly happy about you borrowing the title of one of mine. I briefly blogged about ATP synthase back in 2010, here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-video-that-proves-intelligent-design/ For what it's worth, I personally have no trouble with the idea of ATP synthase having been created along with the first living thing, as it seems to be a very old enzyme, which is found in all domains of organisms.vjtorley
July 1, 2014
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Mark Frank:
So you think that life sprang into being from nothing already equipped with the whole ATP system?
No and that doesn't follow from my comment. The starting point for biological evolution is living organisms- regardless of the paradigm.Joe
July 1, 2014
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Jo #45 So you think that life sprang into being from nothing already equipped with the whole ATP system?Mark Frank
July 1, 2014
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Mark Frank:
I am not quite sure how you prove or disprove ID except by disproving alternatives...
That is good enough for science.Joe
July 1, 2014
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Mark Frank:
I am not quite sure how you prove or disprove ID except by disproving alternatives...
That is good enough for science.Joe
July 1, 2014
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Mark's assumptions 1 + 2 do not address ATP synthase as ATP synthase is ubiquitous and there isn't any evidence that a living organism can live without it. That means the starting point for evolution already includes it. ATP synthase is not a complex protein. It is a complex multi-protein machine that performs a specific function. And it is only evolutionism that has to provide a step-by-step explanation for it as theirs is the position that says there was one. OTOH ATP synthase is a perfect example for Intelligent Design as it meets Dr Behe's criteria and flows very easily through the EF to the design inference. So far from being ignored by ID ATP synthase is a poster child for it. Evolutionism has to ignore it because no one will ever come up with a method for accumulations of accidents producing one.Joe
July 1, 2014
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Gpuccio The more I think about it – I believe that given two assumptions  the origin of complex proteins such as ATP Synthase is not fruitful when deciding between ID and NS or other non-teological explanations.   I have outlined the two assumptions above but I will repeat them here for greater clarity.   1) Common Descent – this you accept 2) Viable organism do not differ greatly from their immediate parent(s ). I am not sure if you accept this so I will add a  justification. (a ) We never observe viable organisms that do differ greatly from their parents. (b ) It is hard to see how an organism that did differ greatly from its parents could be viable as the environment has to change with it – it needs mates, food, shelter etc If you accept (1 ) and (2 ) then what would an explanation of the origin of a complex protein look like?  It would be a sequence of small changes from some ancestor to the protein – each step of which was viable. The only difference between an ID explanation and a NS explanation would be that you propose it would happen more quickly under ID – presumably in the sense that there would be less time where no changes happened. However, without a method of measuring the speed of change that we would expect under each hypothesis this is meaningless. In any case it is almost impossible for either theory to provide evidence for such a sequence. When we turn to small simple changes there is some hope – at least for proving or disproving NS.  We can observe such changes actually happening and we can determine or even control the selective advantage. I am not quite sure how you prove or disprove ID except by disproving alternatives but I guess you could do that disproving for small changes. So far being a fallacy ignoring complex proteins I suggest it is a practical necessity for both camps (and indeed any other theory of evolution that shares assumptions (1 ) and (2 ).Mark Frank
July 1, 2014
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Mark- gpuccio can read my comments and respond to them if he so chooses. But OK- gpuccio, why do you accept Common Descent (as in living organisms are descendants of some unknown starting populations of prokaryotes)?Joe
July 1, 2014
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#41 Joe Why not ask Gpuccio directly?Mark Frank
July 1, 2014
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