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Four fallacies evolutionists make when arguing about biological function (part 1)

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First of all, I want to apologize for shamelessly copying the title and structure of a recent post by VJ Torley. VJ, I hope you will pardon me: imitators, after all, are an undeniable mark of true success! 🙂

That said, let’s go to the subject of this post. I have discussed a little bit about biological function in my previous posts, and I have received many comments about that topic, some of them from very good interlocutors (I would like to publicly thank here Piotr and wd400, in particular). From my general experience in this blog during the last few years, I would like to sum up some of the more questionable attitudes and arguments which I have witnessed most frequently from the “other side” about this concept. Indeed, my purpose here is to catch not so much the specific arguments, but rather the general perspectives which are behind them, and which I believe to be wrong (that’s why I call them “fallacies” in the title).

So, here we go. First the whole list, then we analyze each individual point.

1. The fallacy of denying the objectivity of function.

2.  The fallacy of overemphasizing the role of generic function.

3. The fallacy of downplaying the role of specific function.

4. The fallacy of completely ignoring the highest form of function: the procedures.

I will deal with the first three issue in this post, and with the fourth in a later post.

1. The fallacy of denying the objectivity of function.

This attitude takes the form of an obstinate resistance to the concept itself of function, as though it were something which does not exist. So it happens that, as soon as we IDists start talking about functional specification, there is always someone on the other side ready to question: “Yes, but how do you define function?”. Or to argue that function is just a subjective concept, and that it has no role in science.

Many times I have simply answered: “Hey, just look at some protein database, like Uniprot. You will easily find, for each protein listed there, the voice: “Molecular function”. And usually there is one or more functions listed there. Is that bad science? Are you going to write to the people who run Uniprot asking them what do they mean by that word?”

rusty-185531_640The truth is that practically everybody understands perfectly what function means, and the attitude of denying the concept is just that: simple denial, motivated by the (correct) conviction that the concept itself of function is definitely ID friendly. .

However, the more sophisticated among our interlocutors will not deny function in such a gross way, but they will probably try to argue that the concept is obscure, vague, ill defined, and therefore not reliable. Here we find objections such as: “What do you mean exactly with the word?” or “To what kind of function do you refer?” or “Function can change according to how we define the context”. There is some truth in these thoughts, but in no way such objections are a real problem if we treat the concept of function correctly.

For example, in my previous post “Functional information defined” I have given the following definitions:

I will try to begin introducing two slightly different, but connected, concepts:

a) A function (for an object)

b) A functionality (in a material object)

I define a function for an object as follows:

a) If a conscious observer connects some observed object to some possible desired result which can be obtained using the object in a context, then we say that the conscious observer conceives of a function for that object.

b) If an object can objectively be used by a conscious observer to obtain some specific desired result in a certain context, according to the conceived function, then we say that the object has objective functionality, referred to the specific conceived function.

I will stick to those definitions.

So, function can be objectively defined, even if some reference to a conscious observer conceiving and recognizing it is always necessary.

It is perfectly true that different functions can be defined for the same object. There is no problem there. It is also true that functions can be stratified at different levels. Uniprot correctly lists “molecular functions”. So, for example, hexokinase has the molecular function of binding ATP and phosphorylating glucose or other hexoses, That is what I call the “local function”, the immediate biochemical effect of the molecule. But we can also say that the role of hexokinase is to start the glycolysis process and therefore contribute to the extraction of energy from food in the form of ATP, a role which would not be immediately obvious from the local function (which, instead, consumes ATP). This is a meta-function, because it describes the role of the enzyme in a wider context. We can say that the local function contributes to the meta-function.

In ID theory, local functions are specially interesting when we try to compute the functional complexity of a single protein. For that, we must refer to its immediate biochemical effect. But the meta-function is specially interesting too, when we try to analyze the complexity of a whole system of molecules, such as a protein cascades. In this kind of analysis, the concept of irreducible complexity is very important.

The important point is: denying function, or denying that it can be treated objectively in a scientific context, is a fallacy.

2.  The fallacy of overemphasizing the role of generic function.

This is generally what I call the concept of “any possible function”, which is so often invoked by darwinists as a reason to believe in the power of natural selection and of the neo-darwinian RV + NS algorithm.

The reasoning is more or less the following: as NS is not looking for anything particular, it will detect everything possible which is “useful”. IOWs, NS has no prejudices, and therefore it is very powerful, much more powerful of old good intelligent design, which is confined to intelligent options. That was one of Petrushka’s favourite arguments, but in different ways it has been proposed by many darwinist commentators here.

Now, I hate quoting myself again, but if you look at the above definscrapyardition of “function”, you will see that everything can be functional in some context. Function is not a rare thing, because, as already said:

If a conscious observer connects some observed object to some possible desired result which can be obtained using the object in a context, then we say that the conscious observer conceives of a function for that object.”

Now, as we can conceive of a lot of desires (that is certainly a very human prerogative), functions are very easy to get. In any context, we can use practically anything to obtain some result. That’s why I rarely throw away anything because, you know, “it could be useful, sooner or later”.

Does that reinforce the darwinist concept that “any possible function” is relevant?

Not at all. Quite the contrary. Just because possible functions are everywhere, it is easy to see that only some specific functions are really relevant in a specific context.

home-office-336377_640So, if I go to my attic, I can maybe find some use for any kind of junk that I may find there. But, if I happen to find a forgotten working computer there, I can certainly use it in a very specific way.

So, I would say that there is a great difference between finding some piece of wood which could perhaps be adapted to some use, and finding a working computer. The piece of wood is an example of “any possible function”, while the computer is an example of specific, complex function.

And, as anyone should understand, even if I find 1000 pieces of wood in my attic, that will not give me a working computer. IOWs, simple generic functions do not naturally add to a complex specific function.

So, why am I saying that darwinists tend to overemphasize the role of generic function?  The reason is simple: generic function is all they have, all they can deal with. Their only “engine of variation”, which is RV, can only, at best, generate simple generic function, nothing more. So, what do we do when we have only such and such?   We overemphasize the importance of such and such. Not because it is important, but because it is the only thing we have. An old fallacy, but always a common one.

3. The fallacy of downplaying the role of specific function.

The simple truth is that, especially in a system which is already complex, functional changes usually require complex interventions. Indeed, the addition of a truly new function to an existing complex system requires not only the complexity implicit in the function itself, but also the complexity necessary to integrate the new function in the existing system.

As already said, in the biological context there are two different ways to look at functions: what I call the “local function”, IOWs, the immediate biochemical activity of the molecule, and the “meta-functions”, IOWs, the general results of the activity of that molecule in the whole system.

Let’s take a molecule as an example: ATP synthase. A classic.

It is a very good example, because:

a) It is a very old molecule, already present in LUCA, before the archaea-bacteria divergence, almost 4 billion years ago.

b) It is a very complex molecule: it is made of two different parts, F0 and F1, each of them made of many subunits, and each subunit is a complex protein.

c) It is a very functional protein, indeed a wonderful molecular machine which transforms a proton gradient into stored biochemical energy in the form of ATP, working very much like a mill.old-windmill-96688_640

d) It is a very conserved protein. Let’s take only the subunits alpha and beta, which make most of the F1 part. a multiple alignment between: the human protein, the archaea protein (methanosarcina barkeri) and the bacterial protein (E. coli) showed 176 identities for the alpha subunit and 202 identities for the beta subunit. A total of 378 perfectly conserved aminoacid positions in just two of the many subunits of the molecule, along the whole tree of life.

e) Its local function is very clear: it synthesizes ATP from the energy derived from a proton gradient, transforming the flow of H+ ions into a mechanical rotation which in turn couples the phosphate molecule to ADP.

f) Its meta-function is equally clear: it generates the energy substrate which makes all cellular life possible: ATP.

Now, 378 identities after about 4 billion years during which all possible neutral mutations had time to happen mean just one thing: those 378 AAs must be there, and they must be what they are for the molecule to work.

This is a very good example of a very specific and complex function. In a complex context (cellular life), where the function is useful because there are a lot of individual processes whic h depend on ATP to exist. It is not the piece of wood in the attic. It is a supercomputer, an amazing molecular machine.

Well, are darwinists  curious, concerned or worried because of such specific complex functions which can be found in the old attic of OOL? Not at all. They are confident that they can be readily dealt with. There is an appropriate tool, usually called “the just so story”. For a good example, just read the Wikipedia section about ATP synthase, the part under “Evolution of ATP synthase”. Have fun.

The problem is: complex functional proteins simply cannot be explained. So, why should we think that they must be explained? After all, we can find so many generic functions in our attic: small variations in a gene which can give antibiotic resistance through one or two AA mutations, small changes in the affinity of an existing esterase which confer a nylonase activity through a couple of mutations, the selective spread in specific populations of the heterozigote state of drepanocytosis (one mutation) which gives some resistance to malaria. With all those good pieces of wood which can be used to fix some old chair, who cares about those stunning supercomputers which crowd our attic? They are just there, let’s not be fastidious about the details.

Well, that’s enough for the moment. We will discuss the “procedures” fallacy in next post.

 

 

 

Comments
Gpuccio:
And about “peer-reviewed stuff”: is that a joke?
From a DI page to which KF provided a link: In 2011, the ID movement counted its 50th peer-reviewed scientific paper and new publications continue to appear. http://www.discovery.org/a/2640 Never mind the question how many of those papers were actually published in journals generaly considered to be peer-reviewed. But they boast of having produced 50 papers in twenty-odd years. Say, two papers yearly (for the whole ID movement). I work in the humanities. For obvious reasons we publish fewer research articles than our colleagues from the faculties of physics, chemistry or biology. The faculty where I work is one of the smaller ones at our university. In 2013 people from my faculty published 18 papers in JCR journals (Thomson Reuters Journal Citation Reports), 16 papers in ERIH journals (the European Reference Index for Humanities), 8 monographs, and more than 100 articles in collections, conference proceedings, etc.). At least the first two categories are guaranteed to be peer-reviewed. It's one year's output of one rather small faculty, in the area of humanities, at one university in Poland.Piotr
July 13, 2014
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Mark: The hypothesis is simple, it's you who seem not to understand it. Let's rethink the interpretation of all that we know from natural history and molecular biology, and let's throw away the dogma that what cannot be explained by RV and NS must be explained by RV and NS. Let's identify those inputs of functional information which are certainly beyond current interpretations. Let's consider those transitions as designed, or at least unexplained, and see if they build up some interesting scenario, which can be explained in terms of a project rather than in terms of fitness advantage. Let's quantify the true functional information in proteins, in protein systems, in general systems. Let's apply Durston's method, or find better methods if they can be found. But reasoning in terms of functional space. Let's face the problem of the procedures (I am working at that aspect for the next post) in terms of functional programming. IOWs, if we admit that it is possible that biological systems are designed, and if in the end that were the case, the best way to understand them is certainly to acknowledge that possibility. You will never understand a designed system if you obstinately go on thinking that it came into existence by some non existing non design process. Therefore, excluding a priori the hypothesis of design means excluding the only true explanation in the perfectly possible case that what we observe was really designed. Can that be a scientific attitude? Obviously not. You should at least admit that, but probably you won't. Which is exactly the problem.gpuccio
July 13, 2014
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Piotr: "Gpuccio, how about contributing an article or two to Bio-Complexity before it dwindles away?" Well, what about: I have my work as a medical doctor, and I, like you, have to fight with my personal life to write what I write here... Problems of choices, problems of resources. And about "peer-reviewed stuff": is that a joke? Again I find your statements deeply unfair, but again that's the common trend. At least, you come here and discuss with respect, so I suppose you are a good exception at least for that.gpuccio
July 13, 2014
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Dionisio
When some text appears confusing, it might help to read it more carefully another time. Also, it might help to try asking specific questions about whatever seems confusing. Perhaps someone will try to answer the specific questions to clarify any specific subject that might seem confusing. Or the allegedly confusing text could be rewritten for clarification.
I am sorry. I didn't mean the text was confusing. I am confused because I got the impression that you were criticising something I had written and yet what you wrote seemed to support what I was saying. That is all.Mark Frank
July 13, 2014
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#456 Error correction:
I did not produced...
I did not produce...
Dionisio
July 13, 2014
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Mark Frank @448
Dionisio #440 I am confused. The point of my #433 was that there is lots of active and published reseach that is not neo-darwinism.
When some text appears confusing, it might help to read it more carefully another time. Also, it might help to try asking specific questions about whatever seems confusing. Perhaps someone will try to answer the specific questions to clarify any specific subject that might seem confusing. Or the allegedly confusing text could be rewritten for clarification.
You have produced a nice web site that supports that. I would imagine the lack of comments is because these are quite heavy science and are best discussed in the technical literature by experts. Certainly I don’t feel qualified to comment on them.
Clarification: I did not produced that web site, someone else did it. As you well stated, most of my over 130 posts in the referred thread deal with heavy-duty science issues. They demand serious precise coherent comprehensive comments. I appreciate your honest admission to lack of knowledge on the subject of the referred posts. FYI - most of my over 130 posts in the referred thread are linked to technical literature and raise questions that have no serious precise coherent comprehensive scientific answer at this moment. That's why not even the experts can comment on these posts. I expect more answers to come from the analysis of the data gathered by the researchers and published in the technical literature. As more light will be shed on those heavy science subjects, more and more outstanding questions will be answered, but new questions will be raised. That process should take us closer to the understanding of the biological systems. Then the ID paradigm should get stronger and more obvious to many out there who still don't see it this way. That's why I look with much anticipation to reading newer research reports on the subject I'm studying: cell fate determination, differentiation and migration, during the first weeks of development, which includes, among other things, the detailed mechanisms associated with the precise centrosomes segregation timing, spindle apparatus, checkpoints, centrioles, kinetochores, and all that stuff involved in a magnificent choreography. Certainly these are exciting times for biology-related researchers and science fans in general.Dionisio
July 13, 2014
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Shiftingfocus Kairosfocus:
I guess this activity and this activity — note publications or the work of this man on Y pestis that showed that the bacterial flagellum is in fact irreducibly complex
You are changing the subject. I didn't say people connected with the ID movement never published anything in peer-reviewed journals. But since you've raised the subject, it should be noted that the stuff they do publish is pretty orthodox as a rule (like Marcus Ross's PhD thesis on mosasaurs, in which he pretends to accept geological time scales). In which journal article does Scott Minnich mention, define or demonstrate "irreducible complexity"? Can you quote it? (I mean an article, not his Kitzmiller trial testimony). What I did say was that the DI's own flagship journal had shown only some symbolic activity all these years. Where are the ID researchers when you need them? A single university department, no matter how underfunded, typically publishes more peer-reviewed stuff in a year than the whole movement has produced since its inception. Gpuccio, how about contributing an article or two to Bio-Complexity before it dwindles away?
— as well as this activity specifically sponsored by DI from its resources — note research description here — don’t count?
I can't see much actual publishable research there. It looks more like informal blogging plus some propaganda.
Similar to how a straight line is no longer straight, a polygon is no more a planar figure and so forth, all without acknowledgement of context switching that is material?
Don't bait me: I think I have already rested my case. Let me only quote my own post (#366), the one that started that exchange:
Actually, even this is not quite self-evident either but depends on the geometry of the space in question. A square circle can’t exist on a Euclidean plane with a normal Euclidean metric, but in a spherical geometry the largest possible square (say, one whose vertices are the two poles and two diametrically opposed equatorial points) is a perfect circle.
I explained the role of changing context in the very first post. So much for your accusations; EOT on my part.Piotr
July 13, 2014
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GP
ID is a general paradigm, not a specific hypothesis for some rare event. You are completely missing the point.
This exactly the point. Unless that paradigm produces a specific hypothesis then it is barren. And, whatever the opposition to it, the ID community has the resources to produce a hypothesis if the paradigm is capable of doing it. I have to admit I can't imagine what an ID hypothesis would look like - but that is exactly the point.Mark Frank
July 13, 2014
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F/N: The core design hypothesis of course is that functionally specific complex organisation and associated information in its various guises, is per inductive investigation and linked analysis of search space challenges, a characteristic, reliable sign of intelligent design as key causal factor. This proposition or hypothesis if you will, is subject to empirical testing and is in fact tested every time you infer from a coherent English text or test in another language to an author and not noise on the internet. That such tests are informal does not mean they are not in fact tests. So is the point that in communications we routinely distinguish between signals or messages and noise to the point where a key concept and metric is signal to noise ratio -- based on characteristics of genuine signals that are maximally implausible to arise by chance. In the biological world we not only encounter FSCO/I in the complex functional organisation, but in codes and algorithms shown by the use of string data structures and information in D/RNA and the use of this in the synthesis of proteins. For instance cf VJT here currently, showing the case of protein synthesis. KF PS: Observe the discussion of FSCO/I here recently, and note the studious silence of the critics.kairosfocus
July 13, 2014
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Piotr: I guess this activity and this activity -- note publications or the work of this man on Y pestis that showed that the bacterial flagellum is in fact irreducibly complex -- as well as this activity specifically sponsored by DI from its resources -- note research description here -- don't count? Similar to how a straight line is no longer straight, a polygon is no more a planar figure and so forth, all without acknowledgement of context switching that is material? KFkairosfocus
July 13, 2014
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Mark and Piotr: If you really believe that ID is only a "controversial theory" which lacks "recognition", you have really lost contact with reality. I would expect something better from intelligent and honest people as you are. ID is not "controversial". It is banned. There is quite a difference. The DI does what it can. Dembski does what he can. Behe does what he can, with explicit disclaimers, both of his university and of his fellow colleagues, on the university public site. Durston has proposed a methodology which has great cognitive power and which could be extremely useful in investigating the peculiarities of protein functional space, and he has been utterly ignored. Lenski, on the other hand, is acclaimed as a hero of neo darwinism, while all that he has done is to support ID. And so on, and so on. Now, I am not a conspiracy theory fan. What I am saying is that there is a very heavy cognitive bias against any design paradigm, and a complete dogmatic support of any interpretation which does not disturb "methodological naturalism" (IOWs, the defence of the current theory). Mark, you equivocate when you say: "The Discovery Institute has enough resources to produce at least one paper putting forward a hypothesis about how something evolved along with evidence. " ID hypothesis is clear and simple: there are sudden inputs of functional information in natural history, and they cannot be explained by any existing theory, least of all neo darwinism. Design is the best explanation for those events. So, the first priority is to rethink all that we know in those terms, and see how it makes sense. ID is a general paradigm, not a specific hypothesis for some rare event. You are completely missing the point. And Piotr, you are really unfair in "remarking" about the scarce but precious activity of a few people who have comparatively no resources and no voice in the scientific world, but who believe in what they are doing and are methodologically much more correct in their work than most of those who deal with the same aspects in official science.gpuccio
July 13, 2014
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It isn’t lack of recognition or resources that is stopping them.
Indeed, the Discovery Institure's own online journal, Bio-Complexity, is hardly teeming with activity.Piotr
July 13, 2014
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MF: DI and its fellows have published on topics regarding evolution and its limits in appropriate professional literature, for quite some years now; as a bare matter of fact that should be faced. It is an important service to science and knowledge (not to mention the progress of a civilisation that tends to look to science as a guide to truth) to show that a proposed family of mechanisms -- the blind chance and mechanical necessity ones favoured by various evolutionary materialist schools of thought -- are grossly inadequate. It is not an intellectual virtue to teach or hold the adequacy and superiority of a grossly inadequate mechanism, on grounds that within our sandbox, we can build such wonderful castles. Moreover, there are fields of study of technological evolution by design in light of core principles (e.g. TRIZ), and there is the door of reverse engineering that is relevant to automation studies, computer architectures, and much more. The notion that the design view of nature is unfruitful and a science stopper was dead in the water as of Newton's General Scholium to Principia, and should have long since been retired. Of course, while it is your privilege to ignore or dismiss such considerations, it is equally our privilege to take due note of the further gaps in reasoning thereby exposed. KFkairosfocus
July 13, 2014
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Dionisio #440 I am confused. The point of my #433 was that there is lots of active and published reseach that is not neo-darwinism. You have produced a nice web site that supports that. I would imagine the lack of comments is because these are quite heavy science and are best discussed in the technical literature by experts. Certainly I don't feel qualified to comment on them.Mark Frank
July 13, 2014
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GP 439 There are always vastly more resources allocated to currently accepted science than the new boy on the block.  Controversial theories have often struggled. But they have gone ahead and done real research which is more than knocking all the alternatives and, if they are on to something, eventually the establishment has recognised them. It is possible for ID enthusiasts to get published, the Discovery Institute provides a list: http://www.discovery.org/a/2640. The Discovery Institute has enough resources to produce at least one paper putting forward a hypothesis about how something evolved along with evidence.  It isn’t lack of recognition or resources that is stopping them.Mark Frank
July 12, 2014
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F/N: Did you know that all of the following are true?
a: 0 + 1 = 1 b: 1 + 1 = 0 c: 1 + 1 = 2
What? You didn't know that! You need to learn more and better Mathematics! Of course, what is happening is that the meaning of the symbols is changing. In case a, 1 is a binary logic value and + means INCLUSIVE OR. In case b, + means EXCLUSIVE OR. In case c, 1 is the numeral and + represents ordinary addition. Interestingly enough, to create an adder circuit, one approach is to use an EX-OR gate. This brings out the issue of implicit context and resort to equivocation above. By the time we were finished, it was clear that a straight line wasn't straight anymore -- an apt summary for pretzel-twisting arguments. Not to mention, a flat plane wasn't flat anymore, a polygon's "straight" sides were bent, and so forth. You can make yellow paint from red and white, in short. Sure, if you first make pale pink then "brighten it up" with yellow paint. Let us therefore understand how equivocation, unannounced context and subject switching, injection of unannounced a prioris and the like work to distract, distort and obfuscate. Then, let us understand that if we are to think straight about FSCO/I and its significance, we have to think straight. Starting with first principles of right reason. Which, for good reason, are seen as self-evident. Including, not only the identity cluster that is immediately present when we see a distinct thing, A . . . LOI, LNC, LEM (as in A is A, not NOT_A and not some weird blend with NOT-A or some thing outside of W in W = { A | NOT-A } ) . . . but also that if A is, we have a perfect right to ask why A and to seek and expect a good and sufficient reason. Which points to modes of being, possible vs impossible, dependent on external enabling factors vs not so dependent. Thus, we see how contingent beings depend on causal factors, particularly enabling ones. Where, too, nothing properly denotes non-being. So, let us note where the flak barrage is heaviest. That's the target that is being defended. Which is therefore where we need to hit hard. Which tells us, we are seeing a fundamental hostility to right reason informed by first principles that are independent of our opinions or wishes, in our day. That is itself revealing. Beyond, let us note that sufficient reason, modes of being and cause-effect patterns are foundational to science. Including, firm adherence to the point that things do not unintelligibly poof into existence without rhyme or reason, from nothing, or by inexplicable emergence. Including, in quantum mechanics: to not know the necessary and sufficient causal factors for an event E here, now with this material basis and those circumstances, beyond knowing what sets up a distribution in which E is possible, is not the same as, there is no sufficient cluster of causal factors or there are no enabling factors so E is without cause. KFkairosfocus
July 12, 2014
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F/N: Angus Menuge gives a warning on the practical import of so-called methodological naturalism as an underlying problem with current scientific thought:
It is possible that a materialistic explanation of consciousness might be found, but that does not make the claim that consciousness is non-physical an argument from ignorance… At any given time, scientists should infer the best current explanation of the available evidence, and right now, the best evidence from both neuroscience and rigorous philosophical analysis is that consciousness is not reducible to the physical. Churchland’s refusal to draw this inference is based not on evidence, but on what Karl Popper called "promissory materialism," a reliance on the mere speculative possibility of a materialistic explanation. Since this attitude can be maintained indefinitely, it means that even if a non-materialist account is correct (and supported by overwhelming evidence), that inconvenient truth can always be ignored. Surely the project of science should be one of following the evidence wherever it leads, not of protecting a preconceived materialist philosophy. Isn’t it that philosophy — the one that constantly changes its shape to avoid engagement with troublesome evidence, either ignoring the data or simply declaring it materialistic — that most resembles a virus?
kairosfocus
July 12, 2014
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KF
At root, there is much evidence of a materialist reigning orthodoxy that locks out such heretical notions as that design is a serious possibility.
Yes, and there are three strategies to "lock it out." 1) Outright suppression. The Academy declares that you simply may not argue on behalf of Intelligent Design. ("Expelled, No Intelligence Allowed.") For those who refuse to be intimidated, the second obstacle is waiting: 2) Methodological Naturalism. The Academy changes the rules of empirical investigation and declares that science must study nature as if nature is all there is. ("ID is not science.") For those who escape this trap, the most deadly land mine of all has been set. 3) Anti-Intellectualism. The Academy militates against the tool of argumentation and declares that there can be no such formulation as "If A is true, then B must true, meaning that anything at all can follow from A. ("The Laws of Causality and Non-Contraction are negotiable").StephenB
July 12, 2014
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SB: How you reason, on what ground rules controls how you conclude. That is why it is pivotal to start right and stay right. It seems there is a horror of the notion that we are accountable for truth and right reason in light of self-evident -- thus undeniable -- first principles. It is sad to see that those who would object are forced to depend on distinct visual, oral and written verbal symbols that set up the very world-partitions that lead straight to the LOI, LNC and LEM they would undermine. The attempts to suggest that Quantum Mechanics undermines these would be amusing if it were not sad . . . newsflash, physicists routinely depend on first principles of right reason to do Q-Mech. (Cf. the WAC 38 in the resource tab if you need help here.) Likewise it is unobjectionable that one may ask, on noticing A, why A? Such as: FSCO/I, so why FSCO/I? Then, expecting or hoping, one may investigate modes of being; this will show impossible vs possible being . . . FSCO/I is possible as this post exemplifies. Dependence on enabling factors/ Independence? FSCO/I is dependent -- it is informational and deeply contingent, not necessary. So, it is caused. By what? Empirical observation and analysis of search challenges of config spaces concur: intelligent design. Onward inference: FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design, and points to design as cause. Routine, but when origins comes up there is a refusal to accept the blind search challenge and the challenge to incrementally fix a new body plan within "reasonable" time, mutation rates, population scales and burden of incrementally deleterious mutations. At root, there is much evidence of a materialist reigning orthodoxy that locks out such heretical notions as that design is a serious possibility. We need to think again about what is going on. KFkairosfocus
July 12, 2014
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kairosfocus:
SB: Recall, the injection of non-Euclidean geometries was used rhetorically to distract attention from the point that there are impossible beings — entities that are infeasible as core attributes contradict, by coming up with equivocated redefinitions and contexts that twist all into pretzels.
I remember it well. This business of circles becoming squares didn't just come out of nowhere. Its all about attacking reason's rules and replacing them with ideology and a new set of standards for interpreting scientific evidence. Most here do not understand the relevance of this topic. I can't be concerned about that.StephenB
July 12, 2014
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Piotr
I’m not going to stretch this off-topic thread ad infinitum.
Why is it than when my dialogue partners think they have the edge, they have time to enter into a discussion and consider the subject matter is relevant, but when I begin to expose their errors and faulty reasoning, they run out of time and play the "Off topic" card. It is the second time it has happened on this thread.
If you want to educate yourself, I recommend an excellent, pretty elementary and reader-friendly introduction to non-Euclidean geometry by Stefan Kulczycki (originally written in Polish in the 1950s but still re-published in English):
Actually, there are some books you should read about the logical precedence of first principles over mathematics.StephenB
July 12, 2014
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MF, My 437 was in reference to your 433. Later in 436 you wrote:
I missed the bit where you told me about the experiments, field trials and testable hypotheses about specific situations coming out of ID.
As far as I know, most serious scientists are doing their research on real issues that have little (or nothing) to do with 'n-D evo' - my wife and I just had lunch with two dedicated Scandinavian biologists, who are not ID proponents, but didn't seem to care much about 'n-D evo' when doing their intensive and extensive research work on allergies and diabetes. If you really care about heavy-duty science research, you may want to try suggesting ideas on the over 130 links to research reports I have posted here:
https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/a-third-way-of-evolution/#comments
Note that over 1,100 visits to that thread have not left any comment on the over 130 links to research reports I have posted there so far. Where have the real science lovers gone? Wanna take the challenge and answer detailed bottom line questions? I can start posting them anytime upon request. Just let me know. But please, don't complain about 'unfair interrogation' later. Real questions, down to the bottom, no compromises. BTW, I'm not a medical doctor or a scientist. Hence my questions come from a humble admission of ignorance. But I require real answer that can hold water. Not philosophical chat. Ready?Dionisio
July 12, 2014
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Mark: 1) Are ID scientists freely allowed to publish their work, even if it were only criticism of the current theories, on the main scientific and biological journals? Do you really believe that Dembski, Axe, Durston and anyone else would be allowed to publish data or interpretations which directly are meant to support a design view of biology? 2) Have you noticed that the few "official" papes which deal with the concept of functional information, or with any ID related concept, have to explicitly declare that they have nothing to do with ID? 3) Are you aware of how many resources, both in terms of money or academic representation, are allowed to the ID point of view, in comparison to the neo darwinian point of view? 4) Have you noticed that even those who are so enthusiast of neutral drift and similar, suddenly backpedal to RV + NS as soon as they have to "explain" any functional complexity? 5) Are you aware of the emphasis which is given to experiments like Lenski's, and how difficult it is for one single individual (Behe) to explain the real meaning of the so called miraculous evolutions? And so on, and so on. People like you and Piotr, who come here to discuss with us "peer to peer", are true exceptions. The discussion about ID as a scientific perspective is very actively banned from all scientific contexts. A lot of very good research could be done from an ID perspective, starting from research about the protein functional space. Done without prejudice and without tricks, I mean. But, if even the concept of functional information is ostracized, what can we hope?gpuccio
July 12, 2014
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MF: Every field trial or test that explores the capabilities and limits of evolution by the various mechanisms is automatically a test of design theory. Every exploration of proteins and Amino acid space is the same . . . that stuff Axe was squeezed out of Oxbridge over but completed and published anyway. The tests of gene knockout mechanisms are tests of irreducible complexity. The studies on the sources and spread of resistance to Malarial drugs are field tests and lab tests -- and have underscored the limits to evolution by blind chance. The genetic engineering work is a direct field demonstration of intelligent design in the world of life. Studies on active information are studies of ID, though computer based. Evolutionary Informatics and computing is ID work. Linked hypotheses are all ID linked. Then, there are all the explorations on the fine tuning of cosmos, galaxies and solar systems and planets for life. Studies on cosmological and stellar nucleosynthesis are connected -- most recently you were reminded on how there is a development on origin of Gold etc in context of collisions of neutron stars. And more. I think there is an issue of being in denial of something that is live and ongoing, despite all the attempts to squash, squeeze out, discredit, deny and dismiss. KFkairosfocus
July 12, 2014
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You write as though researchers into evolution were all unable to think beyond or present critical alternatives to RM+NS. In fact, as you know, there is active research based on alternatives such as neutral drift, epigenetics, and endosymbiosis to name just a few. Scientists do work in these areas and come up with experiments, field trials and testable hypotheses about specific situations.
Didn't GP write this @ 432?
I can still accept a position where someone recognizes the inadequacy of the neo darwinian explanation, but cannot accept the design approach.
Actually, here in this blog they posted a very respectful link to 'the third way'. It seems like GP implicitly referred to that OP too. Probably some of us were not aware of that '3rd way' initiative before the OP by News. At least I wasn't. BTW, in that same thread there are a few comments with links to recent research publications that raise many new questions while trying to answer outstanding ones. One possible reason why the third way is more palatable than ID to many folks out there may have to do with the fact that it's on the same side as 'n-D evo' in the ongoing worldview confrontation. But again, it's been in this blog UD where I saw the third way's web page for the first time. Doesn't that tell how open this blog is up to discussion? Regarding GP, if I didn't know he is a medical doctor, I would have thought he is a career diplomat, because he is very polite and nice when dealing with confrontational individuals. Definitely something for me to learn from. Can't wait to see the second part of this OP!Dionisio
July 12, 2014
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KF - I missed the bit where you told me about the experiments, field trials and testable hypotheses about specific situations coming out of ID.Mark Frank
July 12, 2014
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MF: With all due respect, there is a definite a priori materialism that has become an ideological imposition on current origins science, much as Johnson warned against. It matters not whether there is a dominant school and there are variants of diverse kinds, that all must line up with this frame, by institutional imposition and some pretty ugly tactics that have come out in recent years against dissenters. That's a first concern that must be fairly and frankly faced. In that context it must be fairly and frankly faced, too, that here is a serious challenge as to whether blind chance and mechanical necessity can reasonably account for the origin of life and the body plan level biodiversity we see. Tht surfaces the next concern. Science made its reputation not merely for creating empirically useful models, but as a means of seeking the truth about our world, based on the strengths and limitations of empirical, inductive, observation and measurement based methods. So, if in fact there is good evidence that functionally specific complex organisation and associated information is only observed to come from intelligent design, and there is associated good reason to see that the search space challenges are such that blind chance and necessity are maximally implausible as sources, then that is a significant finding worth facing -- cf. here. (And of course, all of this is directly subject to empirical test.) One that hen brings the vera causa test to bear on causal explanations of origins: only such causal factors as are seen to be capable based on actual observation, should be used in explaining the deep unobserved past. That directly challenges the various chance variation and blind environmental culling on differential reproductive success models out there. And so, we are right back at issues of soundness in scientific thought. KFkairosfocus
July 12, 2014
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Glad to see the discussion is back into biological functionality.Dionisio
July 12, 2014
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GP You write as though researchers into evolution were all unable to think beyond or present critical alternatives to RM+NS. In fact, as you know, there is active research based on alternatives such as neutral drift, epigenetics, and endosymbiosis to name just a few. Scientists do work in these areas and come up with experiments, field trials and testable hypotheses about specific situations. As far as I can see the only "science" ever done by ID is to criticize naturalistic hypotheses (if I am wrong please direct me to the source). There is nothing wrong with this but it could equally be done by someone who did not believe in ID. Where are the hypotheses coming out of ID?Mark Frank
July 12, 2014
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KF: I would say that the bias that has been established in scientific thought in the last decades is no more tolerable. It cannot be accepted that, after all the new discoveries about molecular biology and cell functions, a molecular explanation like neo darwinism may be still considered not only valid, but absolutely undisputable. I can still accept a position where someone recognizes the inadequacy of the neo darwinian explanation, but cannot accept the design approach. Still, it would be fair to recognize that the design approach is scientific and legitimate. There is no reason that different scientific approaches should not coexist. The abundance of new information about biological realities can and should be analyzed from all points of view, including design and neo darwinism, or anything else if anything else exists. Scientific debate must go back to what it must be: a debate. ID must be allowed its role in scientific interpretation, and then it will be able to contribute more actively to scientific research. The current dominion of neo darwinian thought is unwarranted: it is a shame and a waste of scientific and intellectual resources.gpuccio
July 12, 2014
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