Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Four fallacies evolutionists make when arguing about biological function (part 1)

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

First of all, I want to apologize for shamelessly copying the title and structure of a recent post by VJ Torley. VJ, I hope you will pardon me: imitators, after all, are an undeniable mark of true success! 🙂

That said, let’s go to the subject of this post. I have discussed a little bit about biological function in my previous posts, and I have received many comments about that topic, some of them from very good interlocutors (I would like to publicly thank here Piotr and wd400, in particular). From my general experience in this blog during the last few years, I would like to sum up some of the more questionable attitudes and arguments which I have witnessed most frequently from the “other side” about this concept. Indeed, my purpose here is to catch not so much the specific arguments, but rather the general perspectives which are behind them, and which I believe to be wrong (that’s why I call them “fallacies” in the title).

So, here we go. First the whole list, then we analyze each individual point.

1. The fallacy of denying the objectivity of function.

2.  The fallacy of overemphasizing the role of generic function.

3. The fallacy of downplaying the role of specific function.

4. The fallacy of completely ignoring the highest form of function: the procedures.

I will deal with the first three issue in this post, and with the fourth in a later post.

1. The fallacy of denying the objectivity of function.

This attitude takes the form of an obstinate resistance to the concept itself of function, as though it were something which does not exist. So it happens that, as soon as we IDists start talking about functional specification, there is always someone on the other side ready to question: “Yes, but how do you define function?”. Or to argue that function is just a subjective concept, and that it has no role in science.

Many times I have simply answered: “Hey, just look at some protein database, like Uniprot. You will easily find, for each protein listed there, the voice: “Molecular function”. And usually there is one or more functions listed there. Is that bad science? Are you going to write to the people who run Uniprot asking them what do they mean by that word?”

rusty-185531_640The truth is that practically everybody understands perfectly what function means, and the attitude of denying the concept is just that: simple denial, motivated by the (correct) conviction that the concept itself of function is definitely ID friendly. .

However, the more sophisticated among our interlocutors will not deny function in such a gross way, but they will probably try to argue that the concept is obscure, vague, ill defined, and therefore not reliable. Here we find objections such as: “What do you mean exactly with the word?” or “To what kind of function do you refer?” or “Function can change according to how we define the context”. There is some truth in these thoughts, but in no way such objections are a real problem if we treat the concept of function correctly.

For example, in my previous post “Functional information defined” I have given the following definitions:

I will try to begin introducing two slightly different, but connected, concepts:

a) A function (for an object)

b) A functionality (in a material object)

I define a function for an object as follows:

a) If a conscious observer connects some observed object to some possible desired result which can be obtained using the object in a context, then we say that the conscious observer conceives of a function for that object.

b) If an object can objectively be used by a conscious observer to obtain some specific desired result in a certain context, according to the conceived function, then we say that the object has objective functionality, referred to the specific conceived function.

I will stick to those definitions.

So, function can be objectively defined, even if some reference to a conscious observer conceiving and recognizing it is always necessary.

It is perfectly true that different functions can be defined for the same object. There is no problem there. It is also true that functions can be stratified at different levels. Uniprot correctly lists “molecular functions”. So, for example, hexokinase has the molecular function of binding ATP and phosphorylating glucose or other hexoses, That is what I call the “local function”, the immediate biochemical effect of the molecule. But we can also say that the role of hexokinase is to start the glycolysis process and therefore contribute to the extraction of energy from food in the form of ATP, a role which would not be immediately obvious from the local function (which, instead, consumes ATP). This is a meta-function, because it describes the role of the enzyme in a wider context. We can say that the local function contributes to the meta-function.

In ID theory, local functions are specially interesting when we try to compute the functional complexity of a single protein. For that, we must refer to its immediate biochemical effect. But the meta-function is specially interesting too, when we try to analyze the complexity of a whole system of molecules, such as a protein cascades. In this kind of analysis, the concept of irreducible complexity is very important.

The important point is: denying function, or denying that it can be treated objectively in a scientific context, is a fallacy.

2.  The fallacy of overemphasizing the role of generic function.

This is generally what I call the concept of “any possible function”, which is so often invoked by darwinists as a reason to believe in the power of natural selection and of the neo-darwinian RV + NS algorithm.

The reasoning is more or less the following: as NS is not looking for anything particular, it will detect everything possible which is “useful”. IOWs, NS has no prejudices, and therefore it is very powerful, much more powerful of old good intelligent design, which is confined to intelligent options. That was one of Petrushka’s favourite arguments, but in different ways it has been proposed by many darwinist commentators here.

Now, I hate quoting myself again, but if you look at the above definscrapyardition of “function”, you will see that everything can be functional in some context. Function is not a rare thing, because, as already said:

If a conscious observer connects some observed object to some possible desired result which can be obtained using the object in a context, then we say that the conscious observer conceives of a function for that object.”

Now, as we can conceive of a lot of desires (that is certainly a very human prerogative), functions are very easy to get. In any context, we can use practically anything to obtain some result. That’s why I rarely throw away anything because, you know, “it could be useful, sooner or later”.

Does that reinforce the darwinist concept that “any possible function” is relevant?

Not at all. Quite the contrary. Just because possible functions are everywhere, it is easy to see that only some specific functions are really relevant in a specific context.

home-office-336377_640So, if I go to my attic, I can maybe find some use for any kind of junk that I may find there. But, if I happen to find a forgotten working computer there, I can certainly use it in a very specific way.

So, I would say that there is a great difference between finding some piece of wood which could perhaps be adapted to some use, and finding a working computer. The piece of wood is an example of “any possible function”, while the computer is an example of specific, complex function.

And, as anyone should understand, even if I find 1000 pieces of wood in my attic, that will not give me a working computer. IOWs, simple generic functions do not naturally add to a complex specific function.

So, why am I saying that darwinists tend to overemphasize the role of generic function?  The reason is simple: generic function is all they have, all they can deal with. Their only “engine of variation”, which is RV, can only, at best, generate simple generic function, nothing more. So, what do we do when we have only such and such?   We overemphasize the importance of such and such. Not because it is important, but because it is the only thing we have. An old fallacy, but always a common one.

3. The fallacy of downplaying the role of specific function.

The simple truth is that, especially in a system which is already complex, functional changes usually require complex interventions. Indeed, the addition of a truly new function to an existing complex system requires not only the complexity implicit in the function itself, but also the complexity necessary to integrate the new function in the existing system.

As already said, in the biological context there are two different ways to look at functions: what I call the “local function”, IOWs, the immediate biochemical activity of the molecule, and the “meta-functions”, IOWs, the general results of the activity of that molecule in the whole system.

Let’s take a molecule as an example: ATP synthase. A classic.

It is a very good example, because:

a) It is a very old molecule, already present in LUCA, before the archaea-bacteria divergence, almost 4 billion years ago.

b) It is a very complex molecule: it is made of two different parts, F0 and F1, each of them made of many subunits, and each subunit is a complex protein.

c) It is a very functional protein, indeed a wonderful molecular machine which transforms a proton gradient into stored biochemical energy in the form of ATP, working very much like a mill.old-windmill-96688_640

d) It is a very conserved protein. Let’s take only the subunits alpha and beta, which make most of the F1 part. a multiple alignment between: the human protein, the archaea protein (methanosarcina barkeri) and the bacterial protein (E. coli) showed 176 identities for the alpha subunit and 202 identities for the beta subunit. A total of 378 perfectly conserved aminoacid positions in just two of the many subunits of the molecule, along the whole tree of life.

e) Its local function is very clear: it synthesizes ATP from the energy derived from a proton gradient, transforming the flow of H+ ions into a mechanical rotation which in turn couples the phosphate molecule to ADP.

f) Its meta-function is equally clear: it generates the energy substrate which makes all cellular life possible: ATP.

Now, 378 identities after about 4 billion years during which all possible neutral mutations had time to happen mean just one thing: those 378 AAs must be there, and they must be what they are for the molecule to work.

This is a very good example of a very specific and complex function. In a complex context (cellular life), where the function is useful because there are a lot of individual processes whic h depend on ATP to exist. It is not the piece of wood in the attic. It is a supercomputer, an amazing molecular machine.

Well, are darwinists  curious, concerned or worried because of such specific complex functions which can be found in the old attic of OOL? Not at all. They are confident that they can be readily dealt with. There is an appropriate tool, usually called “the just so story”. For a good example, just read the Wikipedia section about ATP synthase, the part under “Evolution of ATP synthase”. Have fun.

The problem is: complex functional proteins simply cannot be explained. So, why should we think that they must be explained? After all, we can find so many generic functions in our attic: small variations in a gene which can give antibiotic resistance through one or two AA mutations, small changes in the affinity of an existing esterase which confer a nylonase activity through a couple of mutations, the selective spread in specific populations of the heterozigote state of drepanocytosis (one mutation) which gives some resistance to malaria. With all those good pieces of wood which can be used to fix some old chair, who cares about those stunning supercomputers which crowd our attic? They are just there, let’s not be fastidious about the details.

Well, that’s enough for the moment. We will discuss the “procedures” fallacy in next post.

 

 

 

Comments
StephenB,
Good advice. I have no reason to believe that I have failed to meet that standard in this case. I am sure, however, that I have failed at other times and in other ways. Or, perhaps you can show me how it applies in the present argument. I am certainly open to any kind of fraternal correction.
I gave you two sets of examples. The first was mathematical concepts, concerning which you missed the significance. The second was far more important. Feser failed to make any exceptions, but God clearly should be one. The Ground of All Being does not need nor does He have, an explanation. Otherwise, the "who created God" objection would apply in full force. Think. Do you really want to give away that store? Let me quote Feser again:
In short, either everything has an explanation or we can have no justification for thinking that anything does.
He didn't say "everything that has a beginning", or even "everything that moves". He said "everything". He was not careful enough.Paul Giem
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
07:14 PM
7
07
14
PM
PDT
Mark Frank@363 heroically resisted with
I try to avoid personal comments but I would like to defend myself against charges of dishonesty (conscious or not).
No, they weren't charges. They were just my observations without malice.
Reading through your comments I think this is a misunderstanding.
That would be nice.
It all started with my comment #85 that was intended as light-hearted response to what you admit was a stupid analogy.
Light-hearted I didn't get. It seemed like you were engaging in a desperate, life-or-death struggle with a harmless little sock puppet, pounding on the cute little analogy, and Winning after twelve rounds by a split decision. But then all the little analogy was supposed to do is demonstrate the kind of slipshod reasoning and tortured logic that makes Darwinism what it is today. In this it was eminently successful.
I was not trying to conjecture as to the actual process.
Not true. Scroll up and read your post. The sock puppet pointed out that you accepted groundless speculation as to the "mystery" of the origin of heavier elements such as gold as proven fact.
I understand the difference, but as I was not even aware of the NASA research I can hardly have been propagandized by it.
Yet you uncritically accepted what you'd heard in school. Uncritical acceptance of speculation on the strength of authority rather than evidence is pretty much equivalent to being propagandized. Obviously, you're still blind to this effect.
My main point is that “most evolved” is fairly meaningless term.
Really? That was your main point? And what pray tell was the evidence that you marshalled in support of your main point? Sorry, but the sock puppet might have "won" after all. -QQuerius
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
07:13 PM
7
07
13
PM
PDT
Piotr, Your example is a fascinating one. I'm not sure it is really accurate. I read one definition of a square: "A 4-sided regular polygon with all sides equal and all internal angles 90°". another one is "a rectangle having all four sides of equal length". That source has as the definition of rectangle, "a parallelogram having four right angles." In that case, if reality has curvature, either two-dimensional or three-dimensional, there is no such thing as a square, as the angles vary in greater or lesser degree from 90 degrees. So your example would be kaput. But perhaps we could call it a square, as long as there are 4 equal angles. That's fudging the definition, but it would work until the moment it became a great circle, when you cannot pick out the 4 equal angles. At that point, any arbitrary point could be called an angle, there would be no reason to privilege any particular point as one of the four angles (and why not 3, or 5, or 7, or 342?). So, unless you are trying to form a complete mockery of the definition, a figure cannot be a square and a circle at the same time. The blurring of the distinction fails precisely where you make the final transition. Perhaps you can tell me your definition of square, and where you got it. That is, if you are still answering questions here.Paul Giem
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
07:03 PM
7
07
03
PM
PDT
Piotr
I gave the example of a legitimately defined “square circle” only to show that nothing is as obvious as it might seem. What happens in the Universe at various scales is so removed from our everyday experience (and whatever is dreamt of by your philosophers) we can’t really trust our intuitions and elevate them to the rank of universal rules of reason
This comment reflects a misunderstanding of both the example of the square/circle and the laws of logic. Even if a perfect square could be a perfect circle in a non-Euclidian sense, (not something approaching a perfect circle, which is what you seem to be describing) it would only mean that the definitions of the terms employed were be precise and complete enough to make the circumstantial distinction between them. In other words, it is not logically possible that a square can be a circle at the same time and under the same formal circumstances. Law of non-contradiction/identity. A thing cannot be true and false (or be and not be) at the same time and under the same formal circumstancesStephenB
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
06:39 PM
6
06
39
PM
PDT
Paul Giem@385 . . . Wonderfully described! The scientific resistance against the evidence of the Missoula mega-floods based solely on philosophical grounds is an excellent example of ideological contamination.
How do we avoid being on the wrong side of history? I think it starts with being humble. Science even today doesn’t know everything. But neither does philosophy. Perhaps the best way to operate is to keep both options open, and foreclose them only with appropriate evidence.
So true. A good scientist is observant, methodical, and patient, willing to learn and be taught. Not someone who forces facts into preconceived ideas. Actually, those sound a lot like Christian qualities. Just saying. -QQuerius
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
06:33 PM
6
06
33
PM
PDT
Feser:
In short, either everything has an explanation or we can have no justification for thinking that anything does.
Paul Giem
Almost.
I don't think the word "almost" is accurate. I think Feser's statement holds.
Either everything that has a beginning has an explanation or we can have no justification for thinking that anything does.
Why do you think that it applies to "everything that has a beginning" and not to "everything that requires an explanation," which would, by definition, include those things that have a beginning and many other things as well. The law of causality doesn't just apply to the beginning of existence. It also applies to movement and change--to every event without exception.
Math still requires axioms for which there is no explanation by invoking further axioms.
I don't understand why that is relevant? Math is not subject to or related to the law of causality in any way. Numbers don't cause things to happen nor can they be at the beginning, middle, or end of a causal chain. Meaning no disrespect, but I think you are confusing mathematics with philosophy. Philosophical first principles are not, as you seem to believe, arbitrary. They are grounded in self-evident truths, as we have been saying. Granted, many modern philosophers and scientists have lost touch with these truths, but that doesn't make them less true. It simply means that they are in error. Error changes; truth doesn't.
Be careful how you phrase things (that applies to Feser as well).
Good advice. I have no reason to believe that I have failed to meet that standard in this case. I am sure, however, that I have failed at other times and in other ways. Or, perhaps you can show me how it applies in the present argument. I am certainly open to any kind of fraternal correction.StephenB
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
06:33 PM
6
06
33
PM
PDT
StephenB (#389) (Quoting Feser)
In short, either everything has an explanation or we can have no justification for thinking that anything does.
Almost. Either everything that has a beginning has an explanation or we can have no justification for thinking that anything does. Math still requires axioms for which there is no explanation by invoking further axioms. See G¨odel. And one cannot find an explanation for God. He just is. Be careful how you phrase things (that applies to Feser as well).Paul Giem
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
04:45 PM
4
04
45
PM
PDT
Piotr: Very impressive, and interesting, discussion of spherical geometry. But you still didn't answer the direct question I was curious about: Are a circle and a square one and the same object in spherical geometry? If not, then your example fails. But even if your example were to hold in spherical geometry, the more important point is that KF is using the words as normally understood in Euclidean geometry. Of course if your point is simply that the same word can have different meanings depending on the context, then I'm sure you won't find any objectors here. Anyway, like you, I'll probably bow out, since this is a sidetrack to the more central issues. Cheers.Eric Anderson
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
04:40 PM
4
04
40
PM
PDT
F/N: As we are liable to see that talking point again, let's note the story of Feynmann and the Painter.
P: I can make yellow paint using white and red. F: Let's see. P: Here, we mix white and a tad of red . . . F: So far, that's Pink, as Physics predicts. P: But I'm not finished yet, let me add some yellow here to brighten it up. There, yellow!
Yes, by shifting contexts and playing games with definitions, you can talk a good talk about making yellow out of pink . . . but you have not changed the underlying facts. In this case, it is quite obvious that one uses ordinary spatial contexts in speaking about ordinary objects, and that does lead to the ordinary result. In this case, a square circle is in fact an impossible object. But, if we let someone play the brighten it up game, then we end up with a pretence that the ordinary is not correct. In this case, drastically shift the spatial context and substitute a very different shape for a square. Yes, a collection of arcs and nodes in the surface of a sphere can be called a square (with a different meaning), and that can be stretched to a special case where the arcs form a continuous circle. But that has been by equivocation -- where reading in explicit or implicit context has always been a primary rule of reading. As was pointed out from the outset. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
02:36 PM
2
02
36
PM
PDT
Piotr: I deliberately used a reference that shows the ordinary and relevant meanings. Which more than suffice to make the point. Side track fails. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
02:17 PM
2
02
17
PM
PDT
KF: If you want to supplement your mathematical education, I'm afraid the Collins English Dictionary may not suffice. I gave the example of a legitimately defined "square circle" only to show that nothing is as obvious as it might seem. What happens in the Universe at various scales is so removed from our everyday experience (and whatever is dreamt of by your philosophers) we can't really trust our intuitions and elevate them to the rank of universal rules of reason. Which said, I sign out of the discussion of causality etc. Enough is enough.Piotr
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
01:34 PM
1
01
34
PM
PDT
VJT, Your clip from Feser highlights what is at stake in the issues over deeper fallacies lurking in today's popular scientism, skepticism and Darwinism:
We suppose that our cognitive faculties track truth and standards of rational argumentation, and that it is because they do that we believe the things we do. But if PSR [the Principle of Sufficient Reason - VJT] is false, then we can have no justification for supposing that any of this is really the case. We may in fact believe what we do for no reason whatsoever, and yet it might also falsely seem, again for no reason whatsoever, that we believe things for reasons. And our cognitive faculties may have the deliverances they do for no reason whatsoever — rather than because they track objective truth and standards of logic — and yet it might also falsely seem, for no reason whatsoever, that they do track the latter. In short, either everything has an explanation or we can have no justification for thinking that anything does. No purported middle ground position, on which some things have genuine explanations while others are “brute facts,” can coherently be made out. If there really could be unintelligible “brute facts,” then even the things we think are not brute facts may in fact be brute facts, and the fact that it falsely seems otherwise to us may itself be yet another brute fact. We could have no reason to believe anything. Rejecting PSR entails the most radical skepticism — including skepticism about any reasoning that could make this skepticism itself intelligible</b. Again, the view simply cannot coherently be made out.
In short, believing in, expecting, hoping that the world is intelligible is a basis for science, empirical thought, and common sense. Tossing such overboard leads to some sobering consequences that we need to ponder. Indeed, it leads straight to . . . absurdity. (Which is very relevant to the concept of self evident truth.) KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
01:34 PM
1
01
34
PM
PDT
The fact that some arrangements of fields happen to correspond to the existence of particles and some don’t is not a whit more mysterious than the fact that some of the possible arrangements of my fingers happen to correspond to the existence of a fist and some don’t. And the fact that particles can pop in and out of existence, over time, as those fields rearrange themselves, is not a whit more mysterious than the fact that fists can pop in and out of existence, over time, as my fingers rearrange themselves. And none of these poppings — if you look at them aright — amount to anything even remotely in the neighborhood of a creation from nothing. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)
Yes, I have read Albert's report. He gets it exactly right. Thank you.
In short, either everything has an explanation or we can have no justification for thinking that anything does.
Of course. Professor Feser is correct. Thank you.StephenB
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
01:29 PM
1
01
29
PM
PDT
Piotr: I will simply note for record, that as anyone who has handled a ball knows, a sphere is a 3-d solid object bounded by a 3-d curved surface. Collins Dict:
sphere n 1. (Mathematics) maths a. a three-dimensional closed surface such that every point on the surface is equidistant from a given point, the centre b. the solid figure bounded by this surface or the space enclosed by it. Equation: (x-a)² + (y-b)² + (z-c)² = r², where r is the radius and (a, b, c) are the coordinates of the centre; surface area: 4?r²; volume: 4?r³/3 2. any object having approximately this shape; globe
Yes, if a sphere is large enough or the scale of what we do is small enough, the local surface seems flat enough to approximate to a flat planar surface. That's why it took some effort to conclude between c. 400 and 200 BC that our home is a sphere of a certain size. And yes, you can go off and do some exotic geometry tied to the idea of moving around in such a curved surface. That is useful in its own place but is patently simply irrelevant to and distractive from what a square properly is as described in an ordinary context with ordinary language, what a circle similarly properly is, and why a square circle is an impossible being. Namely, its core attributes stand in mutual contradiction. And, that reminds us of the business on the table you would distract us from:
It remains the case that wPSR is unobjectionable. Using it, we may look at some thing A, and ask why is it so. This leads to two successive dichotomies, first possible vs impossible, on the issue of coherence of core attributes of a candidate being. Second, among possible entities, we have those with and without dependence on an enabling factor. In the latter case we have necessary beings, in the former, contingent beings. Contingent beings will exist in at least one possible world, and will not exist in at least one possible world, depending on the enabling factor’s condition. Something which begins to exist is a classic case in point, as it is first so that we have a possible world without it, then thereafter, we have a possible world with it.
Back on track. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
01:21 PM
1
01
21
PM
PDT
If you think about it, neither Euclidean nor non-Euclidean geometry can exist in reality except as an approximation. The reason is that both assume that continuity (infinite divisibility) is a logical concept. The truth is that, on the face of it, continuity leads to an infinite regress and that's a no-no. The universe is discrete for this reason. Furthermore, given the discreteness of the universe, Euclidean geometry is the better macroscopic approximation for everyday use.Mapou
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
01:12 PM
1
01
12
PM
PDT
Actually, even this is not quite self-evident either but depends on the geometry of the space in question. A square circle can’t exist on a Euclidean plane with a normal Euclidean metric, but in a spherical geometry the largest possible square (say, one whose vertices are the two poles and two diametrically opposed equatorial points) is a perfect circle.
Great insight. Thanks for the comment. I've studied non-Euclidean geometry, and I was wondering (in passing) if that special case existed. I'm impressed you found it. Outstanding! It is for that reason, I've tried to add, in case I suspect there will be such an objection, "in Euclidean geometry..." But to be fair, the qualifier "in Eucledean geometry" is assumed to be the default geometry being described, and that is true even in most math textbooks, it usually is an unstated assumption. Nevertheless, thank you for the comment. That's a cool fact!scordova
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
12:26 PM
12
12
26
PM
PDT
Mark Frank (320), Let me distract you for a little while longer from the argument regarding universal causality. You said,
As I tried to explain before. You can’t assume that what is needed to solve a dramatically more difficult problem is more of what solved the easier problem i.e. more “smartness” whatever that is. For all we know it might turn out that the only way to solve this is through some kind of evolutionary/selection process.
Logically I might not have eliminated the possibility that an unguided process can create light, and it is reasonably certain that humans with their (our) present knowledge and technology are unable to create life, so it is logically possible that your scenario would work. But that is a little like saying that it is logically (and possibly even theoretically) possible that volcanic eruptions can get a piece of parchment with writing on it from earth to the moon, and that humans in their present stage (think 1860) are not capable of doing it, and therefore we should bet on the volcanic eruptions. After my comments that you might be more impressed with the strength of the argument if you knew more about the science of the subject, you said,
There is only time to become knowledgeable in a limited number of subjects. Some time ago I made a conscious decision not to concern myself too much with whether current science can explain evolution. Even if it doesn’t another explanation my be forthcoming the in the future. I am more interested in how this may or may not lead to the conclusion that there is a designer which is a philosophical/statistical issue.
I am confused as to why you refer to statistics. In order to calculate statistics correctly, one has to know the underlying odds, which are usually thought to be best calculated if one has a good handle on the underlying scientific issues. This should make you more, not less, interested, in the current science, and the trajectory of scientific opinion. The reference to philosophical issues is more understandable. If one always allows that a new unknown theory could explain what is presently inexplicable, one cannot prove that what appears to be the current weight of evidence in science will eventually turn out to be correct, so there are no absolute truths, or even absolute falsifications, in science. But that has been trivially known since the days of Einstein. And it hasn't stopped science from having opinions (even erroneous ones ;) ). And perhaps more importantly, you seem to be completely divorcing the issue of whether there is a designer from the science involved. That sounds like scientific know-nothingism. Briefly, the argument could be put, the difficulty of nature creating even relatively small polymers essential for life and the ease with which intelligent agents can produce much larger polymers that can be functional is not even involved in the question of whether an intelligent agent was responsible for the first life. The ultimate absurdity would be to take this reasoning to its logical conclusion: if we observe intelligent agents creating life itself, this would have no bearing on the question. To sustain this position requires some really robust philosophy! ;) You said,
I think the “God of the Gaps” problem goes a bit deeper.  The problem is that it usually amounts to little more than: “An explanation for problem X is that something exists which has the power and motive to solve  problem X”. I imagine you agree that this is a truly unsatisfactory explanation.  There needs to be more to the hypothesis. It needs to be tied to an identified force which has properties other than “has the power to solve this problem” and there has to be some kind of case for linking those other properties to the same force which solved the problem – which in turn implies some other source of evidence. The same thing applies to natural explanations. Ideally there should be some other predictions that can be tested. If Newton had proposed that the reason the apple fell was because there was a force that caused that apple to fall it would have been a joke.  What he proposed was a natural law that could be tested throughout the universe.  Science may invoke specific explanations instead of natural laws e.g. the extra-terrestrial impact explanation for the KT boundary, but these still have implications which can be predicted and tested e.g where was the crater from the impact.
In an ideal world, with ideal knowledge, I do agree with you. But in the real world, with our real limitations, I strongly disagree. You have concentrated on Newton's brilliant synthesis, that lasted for 300 years with minimal modification, gave structure to the modifications (such as electromagnetism and the wave theory of light), and finally, even though superseded, was accurate enough to get us to the moon. What you have forgotten is that Newton's theory was based on all kinds of "there is a force that caused the apple to fall" observations, the most specific of which was Galileo's observations on the speed of round objects rolling down ramps. That is precisely the kind of "there is a force that caused the apple to fall" kind of reasoning which you decry. Every observation can be the first of its kind. As long as there are different kinds of observation, some observation inevitably has to be the first of its kind. If one wants to, one can dispute any theory, even a correct one, by serially going around and disputing every piece of evidence that might lead to it, and thereby finishing with "no evidence" to support the theory. You may think that this is a theoretical scenario, and that no scientist would engage in such behavior (or "no true Scotsman" scientist). But the entire leadership in a particular in a field has been known to make this mistake. Take the case of J Harlan Bretz. He proposed, on the basis of several pieces of evidence, a massive flood that covered most of the eastern part of the state of Washington, along with a good share of Oregon. He had way more than one piece of evidence. But there were two considerations that stopped him. One was, Bretz didn't know where all the water came from. That is, he didn't have all the answers, so one could argue logically that perhaps his other conclusions were wrong too. The second consideration is even more fascinating. Bretz was proposing flooding on a hitherto unrecognized scale. It violated, at least in the minds of the detractors, the Lyellian principle that only causes known to be present now can be invoked, and only at rates comparable to those happening now. The present is the key to the past, and this flood would have been unprecedented. If one believes NOVA, some even thought his flood was too close to the Biblical one. Therefore, until he had proved his case, it must be wrong. Of course, history records that eventually the source for the water was found, and even more evidence for the massive flooding has come to light, and eventually the geologic community was won over. Thus we know (as much as we know in science) who was right. The problem is, what do we do before all the evidence is in? How do we avoid being on the wrong side of history? I think it starts with being humble. Science even today doesn't know everything. But neither does philosophy. Perhaps the best way to operate is to keep both options open, and foreclose them only with appropriate evidence. But finally, one thing Bretz's detractors did not do was to follow him into the field--they thought they knew without evidence. So make more observations, and do more experiments, and follow the results. Origins of life science is pertinent to the question of whether there is a designer. It is worthwhile to study it. When I look back at what appears to me to be the main thrust of your comments, it seems to be that ID hasn't proved its case. And I think that most ID advocates, certainly the more prominent ones, would agree that ID can never logically prove its case. That's why the reasoning is more properly described as adductive, or the inference to the best available explanation. But you seem to be requiring more; you need philosophical/mathematical/scientific proof. You can never get scientific proof. You really don't like it when someone tries philosophical proof. And mathematics may limit, but does not dictate, the shape of the material world (you can't show me why the moon is in the exact position it is in, or even that there is a moon, from mathematics alone). So there will be no proof for you. Awhile back, you said,
For me the search for truth is a matter of logic and evidence and nothing else.  I would like to believe in a deity, it is possible that I might be a happier, more moral and more healthy person if I did believe in a certain kind of deity, but I can’t just choose to believe something against the evidence.
Awhile back, I gave you evidence (long strings of DNA, including that for ATP synthase and the entire ATP metabolic chain, have been synthesized by (an) intelligent agent(s), that could well be God; unintelligent forces have not been seen to synthesize such long strings of DNA, nor is there any coherent theory how those forces should do so; so God might explain something that is currently unexplained). You may argue that the evidence is weak, but I think it is unfair to call it non-existent. That means, if I understand it correctly, that you believe that there is more evidence that counterbalances the evidence I have given. That is, if the description of your mental state is accurate, you would give a tie to God. We have more than a tie if all we have is what I have put on the table. You are still not a believer in God. That means, if I take you literally, that you believe that there is some evidence that outweighs what I pointed out above. What is it? Earlier I quoted you and said,
I have always found the maths stemming out of ID to be highly suspect so I would be interested to see the argument.
Which maths would you like to see first? We’ll see if we can present them. This could get really interesting.
I still think it could get interesting. Would you care to point us in the direction of which maths you would want better explicated?Paul Giem
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
12:02 PM
12
12
02
PM
PDT
MF Thanks for taking time out to respond. I too hope you are feeling better. I thought you did an excellent job in summarising your position. A few comments.
We continue to muddle two propositions. (A ) Everything that comes into existence has a cause. (B ) It is self-evident that (A ) is true. I think that at the QM level (A ) is false which would entail (B ) is false. The evidence for this being that QM scientists have built robust models without causes that account for what we observe. This is generally accepted as evidence for something not existing – think phlogiston or ether.
To say that A is false does not mean "something not existing" or that something comes from nothing. There indeed can be no evidence of nothing. Your examples of phlogiston or ether have the potential to be investigated as to whether they exist or do not exist, nothing cannot be investigated since it has no physical properties whatsoever.There can be no evidence of nothing. It is as I keep repeating beyond (meta) physics. Even if you are correct that QM models accurately reflect no causes that does not equate that something comes from nothing. No model can model nothing since there is nothing to model.
Several people have commented that (A ) is true and maybe (B ) because something can’t come from nothing or words to that effect. I can do no more than repeat what I written many times above. I contend that it is at least possible and maybe true at the QM level that things sometimes just appear. They don’t “come from” anything. There is no “coming from” taking place. They are just absent one moment and present the next. I don’t understand why this is so hard to accept.
I have no problem with the observation that "things sometimses just appear" The key word here is "appear" and if everyone just left it there I would have no problems with that. But you dont leave it there rather you take a meta physical leap that this means that things that are appearing exist from nothing. This is an unwarranted leap IMO.
If you can imagine something then it is logically possible.
And this has been one of my main points all along. Assuming you are correct about this( see VJT).If it is correct you have argued forcibly that it is not logically possible that something springs from nothing.Please imagine for all of us "nothing" Vividvividbleau
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
12:02 PM
12
12
02
PM
PDT
Eric Anderson:
BTW, just as a secondary question, in spherical geometry, are you saying that a square and a circle (of appropriate size) would trace out the same exact shape, or would the circle itself trace out a different shape than we are used to seeing? If the latter, then KF’s point holds, regardless of which geometry you are using.
A sphere is a 2-dimensional manifold, which means that locally, near each point, it resembles a Euclidean plane. In other words, sufficiently small squares are practically identical with Euclidean squares as to their shape and properties. We humans are very small compared to the size of the Earth, so a square we draw on flat ground is to all intents and purposes Euclidean; the difference is negligible. But if you draw a really large square (i.e., a regular polygon with four equal angles and four equal sides), for example one whose sides have a length of 10 km each, you will discover that each angle, if measured accurately, is slightly larger than a righ angle (and the area of the square is slightly larger than 100 km², by the way). The larger the square, the larger the difference. Cartographers, land surveyors and civil engineers can't ignore it. If the length of each side is about 10,000 km, each angle becomes a straight angle (180°), and the square becomes a great circle of the sphere (in this example, of the Earth). Circles in a spherical geometry are identical with Euclidean circles, as to their shape. The area surrounded by a circle and its circumference expressed as a function of the radius are locally given to a great accuracy by the normal formulas of planar geometry; but again the larger the radius, the larger the difference, since the curvature of the surface can no longer be ignored. If r = 10,000 km, the circumference equals 4r (not 2πr), and the area equals 2πr² (not πr²). Lest you should think this is merely an exercise in equivocation, we have very real problem of the same kind simply because we happen to live in a Universe whose geometry is not perfectly Euclidean, and whose spacial dimensions are interwoven with the dimension of time into a 4-dimensional manifold, only locally approximated by a "flat" Euclidean 3-space plus time as a separable dimension. Consider the composition of velocities. It might seem "self-evident" that they simply add (Galileo and Newton wouldn't have doubted it for a moment), but for large velocities the difference between real spacetime and its Galilean approximation begins to matter and we have to use the formulas od special relativity. If we ignored the non-classical geometry of spacetime, GPS systems would be useless.Piotr
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
11:44 AM
11
11
44
AM
PDT
vjt: #379 'My point here is that “logically possible” and “imaginable” are by no means equivalent: some logical possibilities may be unimaginable (quantum physics, anyone?), while some things we can imagine aren’t logically possible.' I'm puzzled by your assertion that 'some logical possibilities may be unimaginable', such as occur, for example, in quantum physics. Is it not the case, rather, that they are very abstruse mysteries which defy logic, and merely have to be accepted as 'brute facts, and duly incorporated to advantage in the otherwise logical analyses and calculations of the rest of the study? Of course, such 'brute facts' will invite study just the same, and logical inferences leading to greater mysteries, perhaps, uncovered. I believe this to be the case with the 'wave-particle' duality.Axel
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
10:01 AM
10
10
01
AM
PDT
VJT: Quite interesting as usual. The brute facts effectively from zip, is yet another spin on the general delusion problem, to me. Any world concept that boils down to a general delusion, is self-undermining. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
09:48 AM
9
09
48
AM
PDT
F/N: Let's lay out a couple of basic definitions to make the point even plainer, without going off on a red herring sidetrack led off to a convenient "there's a squirrel" strawman:
square n 1. (Mathematics) a plane geometric figure having four equal sides and four right angles. Compare rectangle, rhombus 2. any object, part, or arrangement having this or a similar shape: a square of carpet; a square on a chess board. [Collins Engl. Dict] circle n 1. (Mathematics) maths a closed plane curve every point of which is equidistant from a given fixed point, the centre. Equation: (x -h)² + (y -k)² = r² where r is the radius and (h, k) are the coordinates of the centre; area ?r²; circumference: 2?r 2. (Mathematics) the figure enclosed by such a curve [Collins English Dict.]
A planar figure cannot be both a square and a circle at the same time, as the requirements to be squarish and those to be circular contradict, e.g. straight vs curved perimeter lines, corners vs no corners. The logical point about impossible beings stands, and the example used to illustrate it stands. And, plainly, it is the one using the unusual sense who has a duty of explanation. Where a "square" in the surface of a sphere, will have curved not planar sides. It is possible to draw a circle on the surface of a sphere. Distraction from the meaning and significance of modes of being is over. It remains the case that wPSR is unobjectionable. Using it, we may look at some thing A, and ask why is it so. This leads to two successive dichotomies, first possible vs impossible, on the issue of coherence of core attributes of a candidate being. Second, among possible entities, we have those with and without dependence on an enabling factor. In the latter case we have necessary beings, in the former, contingent beings. Contingent beings will exist in at least one possible world, and will not exist in at least one possible world, depending on the enabling factor's condition. Something which begins to exist is a classic case in point, as it is first so that we have a possible world without it, then thereafter, we have a possible world with it. (I used my own existence above and things that might have happened in my family to draw this out.) Let's not reward distractive red herring side track and strawman set-up then knock over rhetorical games KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
09:36 AM
9
09
36
AM
PDT
Hi Mark Frank, kairosfocus and gpuccio, I'm very late to this discussion, but I'd just like to make a few remarks. I'd like to begin with Mark Frank's remark, "If you can imagine something then it is logically possible." This statement is profoundly wrong, for it confuses an image with a concept. Aristotle refuted the notion that a concept is a kind of image more than 2,300 years ago, in his De Anima, Book III. His example of the sun appearing to be a foot wide even though we understand it to be larger than the earth is well-known. But if you don't like that example, consider the example (often invoked by Professor Ed Feser, and building on an illustration used by Descartes) of the concept of a 999-sided figure vs. the concept of a chiliagon. We have the same mental image of both figures, yet our concepts of the two are quite distinct. My point here is that "logically possible" and "imaginable" are by no means equivalent: some logical possibilities may be unimaginable (quantum physics, anyone?), while some things we can imagine aren't logically possible. Think of Escher's paintings. Or think of a bird, flying in a vacuum: we can all picture it, but when we ask: "What would keep it up, and how would flapping its wings help it stay up in space?" we can see at once that the idea of a bird flying in a vacuum makes absolutely no logical sense. I'd now like to turn to the two propositions that have caused so much controversy: (A ) Everything that comes into existence has a cause. (B ) It is self-evident that (A ) is true. Regarding (A), I'd like to quote from physicist David Albert's review of Lawrence Krauss' book, A Universe from Nothing:
The particular, eternally persisting, elementary physical stuff of the world, according to the standard presentations of relativistic quantum field theories, consists (unsurprisingly) of relativistic quantum fields. And the fundamental laws of this theory take the form of rules concerning which arrangements of those fields are physically possible and which aren't, and rules connecting the arrangements of those fields at later times to their arrangements at earlier times, and so on — and they have nothing whatsoever to say on the subject of where those fields came from, or of why the world should have consisted of the particular kinds of fields it does, or of why it should have consisted of fields at all, or of why there should have been a world in the first place. Period. Case closed. End of story. What on earth, then, can Krauss have been thinking? Well, there is, as it happens, an interesting difference between relativistic quantum field theories and every previous serious candidate for a fundamental physical theory of the world. Every previous such theory counted material particles among the concrete, fundamental, eternally persisting elementary physical stuff of the world — and relativistic quantum field theories, interestingly and emphatically and unprecedentedly, do not. According to relativistic quantum field theories, particles are to be understood, rather, as specific arrangements of the fields. Certain ­arrangements of the fields, for instance, correspond to there being 14 particles in the universe, and certain other arrangements correspond to there being 276 particles, and certain other arrangements correspond to there being an infinite number of particles, and certain other arrangements correspond to there being no particles at all. And those last arrangements are referred to, in the jargon of quantum field theories, for obvious reasons, as “vacuum” states. Krauss seems to be thinking that these vacuum states amount to the relativistic-­quantum-field-theoretical version of there not being any physical stuff at all. And he has an argument — or thinks he does — that the laws of relativistic quantum field theories entail that vacuum states are unstable. And that, in a nutshell, is the account he proposes of why there should be something rather than nothing. But that's just not right. Relativistic-quantum-field-theoretical vacuum states — no less than giraffes or refrigerators or solar systems — are particular arrangements of elementary physical stuff. The true relativistic-quantum-field-­theoretical equivalent to there not being any physical stuff at all isn't this or that particular arrangement of the fields — what it is (obviously, and ineluctably, and on the contrary) is the simple absence of the fields! The fact that some arrangements of fields happen to correspond to the existence of particles and some don't is not a whit more mysterious than the fact that some of the possible arrangements of my fingers happen to correspond to the existence of a fist and some don't. And the fact that particles can pop in and out of existence, over time, as those fields rearrange themselves, is not a whit more mysterious than the fact that fists can pop in and out of existence, over time, as my fingers rearrange themselves. And none of these poppings — if you look at them aright — amount to anything even remotely in the neighborhood of a creation from nothing. (Emphasis mine - VJT.)
With regard to proposition (B), Mark Frank refutes his own argument, with an example he declares is logically possible: teleportation. Mark Frank claims he can imagine something coming into existence out of nothing. But how is this mental image of somthing coming into being ex nihilo any different from that of something being teleported from a faraway location? In both cases, an object suddenly appears, seemingly out of nowhere. So the real question we need to ask is: can we conceive of such a thing occurring? Professor Ed Feser argues that we cannot consistently do so, because the appearance of something out of nothing would constitute an event without an explanation, and this in turn would entail epistemic skepticism:
Consider that whenever we accept a claim as rationally justified, we suppose not only that we have a reason for accepting it (in the sense of a rational justification), but also that our having this reason is the reason why we accept it (in the sense of being the cause or explanation of our accepting it). We suppose that our cognitive faculties track truth and standards of rational argumentation, and that it is because they do that we believe the things we do. But if PSR [the Principle of Sufficient Reason - VJT] is false, then we can have no justification for supposing that any of this is really the case. We may in fact believe what we do for no reason whatsoever, and yet it might also falsely seem, again for no reason whatsoever, that we believe things for reasons. And our cognitive faculties may have the deliverances they do for no reason whatsoever -- rather than because they track objective truth and standards of logic -- and yet it might also falsely seem, for no reason whatsoever, that they do track the latter. In short, either everything has an explanation or we can have no justification for thinking that anything does. No purported middle ground position, on which some things have genuine explanations while others are “brute facts,” can coherently be made out. If there really could be unintelligible “brute facts,” then even the things we think are not brute facts may in fact be brute facts, and the fact that it falsely seems otherwise to us may itself be yet another brute fact. We could have no reason to believe anything. Rejecting PSR entails the most radical skepticism -- including skepticism about any reasoning that could make this skepticism itself intelligible. Again, the view simply cannot coherently be made out.
So there we have it. What do you all think of this argument by Professor Feser?vjtorley
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
09:19 AM
9
09
19
AM
PDT
Piotr w/r/t a "square circle": If your only point is that a word can mean different things in different contexts, then fine. Point taken. But also rather unhelpful and doesn't address KF's point. So just go back and read all of KF's statements with the added parenthetical "(in normal Euclidean geometry)" and you'll be all set. BTW, just as a secondary question, in spherical geometry, are you saying that a square and a circle (of appropriate size) would trace out the same exact shape, or would the circle itself trace out a different shape than we are used to seeing? If the latter, then KF's point holds, regardless of which geometry you are using.Eric Anderson
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
08:52 AM
8
08
52
AM
PDT
Mark
Mostly [causality matters] because of the argument from first cause or prime mover for the existence of God.
It goes a lot deeper than that. Causality matters because rationality depends on it. You have not explained why if one thing can come into existence without a cause, anything and everything could not also come into existence without a cause Challenge #1 left unanswered . Further, you have not been consistent: On the one hand, you acknowledge that a zebra CANNOT appear in my living room without a cause because the laws of physics prevent it. On the other hand, you insinuate that a zebra CAN appear in my living room without a cause because there is no law of causality that requires a zebra to respect the laws of physics. Which is it? Challenge #2 left unanswered
Stephenb also seems to think that the assault on causality as self-evident is part of a broader move to destroy all self-evident propositions and the foundations of reality
No, it is a strategy for destroying the foundations of reason, not the foundations of reality. Reason and reality are correlated, but they are not the same thing.
(Actually I accept that statements such the LEM are always true and we do not need empirical evidence to prove this.
Why?
I just want to avoid debating them because I have different ideas about why they are always true which would distract from the discussion about causality)
You don’t have to debate them. You can simply disclose them. You can also disclose your list of reason’s rules and tell us which ones are and are not negotiable--and why they should be counted as rules. Challenge #3 left unanswered
I think that at the QM level (A ) is false which would entail (B ) is false. The evidence for this being that QM scientists have built robust models without causes that account for what we observe.
Nonsense. Quantum theorists have not built robust models without causes that give a full account of what we observe. This is a bluff. Some atheist QM theorists) have simply made the faulty claim that unknown causes constitute non-existent causes. That is also your argument, and it fails for obvious reasons. Challenge #4 left unanswered Also, you seem not to realize that the same irrational quantum theorists who reject causality typically reject the law of non-contradiction on the same grounds. Since you accept their interpretations without question, why do you not follow them and reject the law of non-contradiction as well. Challenge #5 left unanswered
I can do no more than repeat what I written many times above. I contend that it is at least possible and maybe true at the QM level that things sometimes just appear.
Yet, in spite of my repeated requests, you have provided no argument to explain how evidence for unpredictability could logically lead to a conclusion of acausality---or why an unknown cause translates into a non-existent cause. You simply claim, with no warrant whatsoever, that some QM theorists have created models that bridge those two gaps. They have not. Challenge #6 left unanswered
That is it for causality! I am unlikely to respond to any further comments on this subject in this thread because I think we have flogged the dead horse long enough. I will pick up other subjects in separate comments.
Translation: I will never answer StephenB’s challenges—any of themStephenB
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
08:51 AM
8
08
51
AM
PDT
Piotr: you are trying to change a context that is known to all, to evade a plain point in plain language. That's called a strawman tactic. It speaks volumes. Game over. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
08:36 AM
8
08
36
AM
PDT
KF, Have you ever taken a course in topology?Piotr
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
06:38 AM
6
06
38
AM
PDT
Piotr, Further to this, there are standard, ordinary, well known commonplace meanings for circle and square of thousands of years standing. Locus of points in a plane equidistant from a fixed centre, and the enclosed surface. A rhombus with sides right angles, and that sort of stuff. It is those who take the terms out of that context who have duties to highlight shift in context and its import for understanding, not me. While I do not claim that the impossibility of a square circle is self evident, it is in fact a case of core characteristics standing in mutual contradiction -- a classic example. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
05:43 AM
5
05
43
AM
PDT
Piotr, nope it is a 3-dimensional object. We may move about within or on the surface as a curvilinear space, a subspace of the overall 3-d space, but again A is A. As in a locus in which x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = r^2, r a constant the radius and the origin being at its centre. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
05:19 AM
5
05
19
AM
PDT
BTW, cause is cause . . . A is A, we are back to LOI and its travelling companions. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2014
July
07
Jul
10
10
2014
05:16 AM
5
05
16
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6 17

Leave a Reply