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Four fallacies evolutionists make when arguing about biological function (part 1)

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First of all, I want to apologize for shamelessly copying the title and structure of a recent post by VJ Torley. VJ, I hope you will pardon me: imitators, after all, are an undeniable mark of true success! 🙂

That said, let’s go to the subject of this post. I have discussed a little bit about biological function in my previous posts, and I have received many comments about that topic, some of them from very good interlocutors (I would like to publicly thank here Piotr and wd400, in particular). From my general experience in this blog during the last few years, I would like to sum up some of the more questionable attitudes and arguments which I have witnessed most frequently from the “other side” about this concept. Indeed, my purpose here is to catch not so much the specific arguments, but rather the general perspectives which are behind them, and which I believe to be wrong (that’s why I call them “fallacies” in the title).

So, here we go. First the whole list, then we analyze each individual point.

1. The fallacy of denying the objectivity of function.

2.  The fallacy of overemphasizing the role of generic function.

3. The fallacy of downplaying the role of specific function.

4. The fallacy of completely ignoring the highest form of function: the procedures.

I will deal with the first three issue in this post, and with the fourth in a later post.

1. The fallacy of denying the objectivity of function.

This attitude takes the form of an obstinate resistance to the concept itself of function, as though it were something which does not exist. So it happens that, as soon as we IDists start talking about functional specification, there is always someone on the other side ready to question: “Yes, but how do you define function?”. Or to argue that function is just a subjective concept, and that it has no role in science.

Many times I have simply answered: “Hey, just look at some protein database, like Uniprot. You will easily find, for each protein listed there, the voice: “Molecular function”. And usually there is one or more functions listed there. Is that bad science? Are you going to write to the people who run Uniprot asking them what do they mean by that word?”

rusty-185531_640The truth is that practically everybody understands perfectly what function means, and the attitude of denying the concept is just that: simple denial, motivated by the (correct) conviction that the concept itself of function is definitely ID friendly. .

However, the more sophisticated among our interlocutors will not deny function in such a gross way, but they will probably try to argue that the concept is obscure, vague, ill defined, and therefore not reliable. Here we find objections such as: “What do you mean exactly with the word?” or “To what kind of function do you refer?” or “Function can change according to how we define the context”. There is some truth in these thoughts, but in no way such objections are a real problem if we treat the concept of function correctly.

For example, in my previous post “Functional information defined” I have given the following definitions:

I will try to begin introducing two slightly different, but connected, concepts:

a) A function (for an object)

b) A functionality (in a material object)

I define a function for an object as follows:

a) If a conscious observer connects some observed object to some possible desired result which can be obtained using the object in a context, then we say that the conscious observer conceives of a function for that object.

b) If an object can objectively be used by a conscious observer to obtain some specific desired result in a certain context, according to the conceived function, then we say that the object has objective functionality, referred to the specific conceived function.

I will stick to those definitions.

So, function can be objectively defined, even if some reference to a conscious observer conceiving and recognizing it is always necessary.

It is perfectly true that different functions can be defined for the same object. There is no problem there. It is also true that functions can be stratified at different levels. Uniprot correctly lists “molecular functions”. So, for example, hexokinase has the molecular function of binding ATP and phosphorylating glucose or other hexoses, That is what I call the “local function”, the immediate biochemical effect of the molecule. But we can also say that the role of hexokinase is to start the glycolysis process and therefore contribute to the extraction of energy from food in the form of ATP, a role which would not be immediately obvious from the local function (which, instead, consumes ATP). This is a meta-function, because it describes the role of the enzyme in a wider context. We can say that the local function contributes to the meta-function.

In ID theory, local functions are specially interesting when we try to compute the functional complexity of a single protein. For that, we must refer to its immediate biochemical effect. But the meta-function is specially interesting too, when we try to analyze the complexity of a whole system of molecules, such as a protein cascades. In this kind of analysis, the concept of irreducible complexity is very important.

The important point is: denying function, or denying that it can be treated objectively in a scientific context, is a fallacy.

2.  The fallacy of overemphasizing the role of generic function.

This is generally what I call the concept of “any possible function”, which is so often invoked by darwinists as a reason to believe in the power of natural selection and of the neo-darwinian RV + NS algorithm.

The reasoning is more or less the following: as NS is not looking for anything particular, it will detect everything possible which is “useful”. IOWs, NS has no prejudices, and therefore it is very powerful, much more powerful of old good intelligent design, which is confined to intelligent options. That was one of Petrushka’s favourite arguments, but in different ways it has been proposed by many darwinist commentators here.

Now, I hate quoting myself again, but if you look at the above definscrapyardition of “function”, you will see that everything can be functional in some context. Function is not a rare thing, because, as already said:

If a conscious observer connects some observed object to some possible desired result which can be obtained using the object in a context, then we say that the conscious observer conceives of a function for that object.”

Now, as we can conceive of a lot of desires (that is certainly a very human prerogative), functions are very easy to get. In any context, we can use practically anything to obtain some result. That’s why I rarely throw away anything because, you know, “it could be useful, sooner or later”.

Does that reinforce the darwinist concept that “any possible function” is relevant?

Not at all. Quite the contrary. Just because possible functions are everywhere, it is easy to see that only some specific functions are really relevant in a specific context.

home-office-336377_640So, if I go to my attic, I can maybe find some use for any kind of junk that I may find there. But, if I happen to find a forgotten working computer there, I can certainly use it in a very specific way.

So, I would say that there is a great difference between finding some piece of wood which could perhaps be adapted to some use, and finding a working computer. The piece of wood is an example of “any possible function”, while the computer is an example of specific, complex function.

And, as anyone should understand, even if I find 1000 pieces of wood in my attic, that will not give me a working computer. IOWs, simple generic functions do not naturally add to a complex specific function.

So, why am I saying that darwinists tend to overemphasize the role of generic function?  The reason is simple: generic function is all they have, all they can deal with. Their only “engine of variation”, which is RV, can only, at best, generate simple generic function, nothing more. So, what do we do when we have only such and such?   We overemphasize the importance of such and such. Not because it is important, but because it is the only thing we have. An old fallacy, but always a common one.

3. The fallacy of downplaying the role of specific function.

The simple truth is that, especially in a system which is already complex, functional changes usually require complex interventions. Indeed, the addition of a truly new function to an existing complex system requires not only the complexity implicit in the function itself, but also the complexity necessary to integrate the new function in the existing system.

As already said, in the biological context there are two different ways to look at functions: what I call the “local function”, IOWs, the immediate biochemical activity of the molecule, and the “meta-functions”, IOWs, the general results of the activity of that molecule in the whole system.

Let’s take a molecule as an example: ATP synthase. A classic.

It is a very good example, because:

a) It is a very old molecule, already present in LUCA, before the archaea-bacteria divergence, almost 4 billion years ago.

b) It is a very complex molecule: it is made of two different parts, F0 and F1, each of them made of many subunits, and each subunit is a complex protein.

c) It is a very functional protein, indeed a wonderful molecular machine which transforms a proton gradient into stored biochemical energy in the form of ATP, working very much like a mill.old-windmill-96688_640

d) It is a very conserved protein. Let’s take only the subunits alpha and beta, which make most of the F1 part. a multiple alignment between: the human protein, the archaea protein (methanosarcina barkeri) and the bacterial protein (E. coli) showed 176 identities for the alpha subunit and 202 identities for the beta subunit. A total of 378 perfectly conserved aminoacid positions in just two of the many subunits of the molecule, along the whole tree of life.

e) Its local function is very clear: it synthesizes ATP from the energy derived from a proton gradient, transforming the flow of H+ ions into a mechanical rotation which in turn couples the phosphate molecule to ADP.

f) Its meta-function is equally clear: it generates the energy substrate which makes all cellular life possible: ATP.

Now, 378 identities after about 4 billion years during which all possible neutral mutations had time to happen mean just one thing: those 378 AAs must be there, and they must be what they are for the molecule to work.

This is a very good example of a very specific and complex function. In a complex context (cellular life), where the function is useful because there are a lot of individual processes whic h depend on ATP to exist. It is not the piece of wood in the attic. It is a supercomputer, an amazing molecular machine.

Well, are darwinists  curious, concerned or worried because of such specific complex functions which can be found in the old attic of OOL? Not at all. They are confident that they can be readily dealt with. There is an appropriate tool, usually called “the just so story”. For a good example, just read the Wikipedia section about ATP synthase, the part under “Evolution of ATP synthase”. Have fun.

The problem is: complex functional proteins simply cannot be explained. So, why should we think that they must be explained? After all, we can find so many generic functions in our attic: small variations in a gene which can give antibiotic resistance through one or two AA mutations, small changes in the affinity of an existing esterase which confer a nylonase activity through a couple of mutations, the selective spread in specific populations of the heterozigote state of drepanocytosis (one mutation) which gives some resistance to malaria. With all those good pieces of wood which can be used to fix some old chair, who cares about those stunning supercomputers which crowd our attic? They are just there, let’s not be fastidious about the details.

Well, that’s enough for the moment. We will discuss the “procedures” fallacy in next post.

 

 

 

Comments
KF
Piotr, you have unfortunately equivocated. Square and circle have a meaning and context and a 3-d shape on a sphere’s surface does not meet that test. Kindly cf here on the broader problem, noting esp. the point made by Wolfram.
The surface of a sphere is two-dimensional, and it's perfectly possible to define squares and circles on it (since angles, geodesics and distances are all definable). If you say that a special context is required for square circles to be impossible, you in fact admit that their self-contradictory character is not obvious.Piotr
July 10, 2014
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F/N: Let me add that having a beginning points to a possible world without an entity say X and another possible world with it, i.e to have a beginning is positive demonstration of contingency. To be made of parts, i.e. be composite is another, as is by consequence to be made of matter in aggregate. Where also mass-energy conversions and the credible origin of the observed material cosmos point to contingency of matter as we observe it. Finally, non-being -- a proper nothing -- has no causal properties. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2014
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F/N: MF -- a moment, nope, cause is cause. For something to occur without cause there can be no enabling, necessary, potentially blocking factors. And on sufficiency, it is reasonable to mark a difference between what we know, what we can know and what obtains. Where, it seems to me rather tendentious to suggest that if we know of circumstances sufficiently enabling to allow a distribution of possible events though we may not know just which will happen just where or when, we have established lack of sufficiency sufficient to dismiss causality as not present. In short rejection of A on your part turns on something highly questionable. As to the part B, I repeat that what is unquestionable is wPSR, and in that light we can familiarise ourselves with modes of being. On doing so, causality especially enabling factors, arises as a corollary of contingent possible being. In that context of familiarity, it is indeed self-evident. But in our day, familiarity with modes of being is a definite pons asinorum. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2014
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Piotr, you have unfortunately equivocated. Square and circle have a meaning and context and a 3-d shape on a sphere's surface does not meet that test. Kindly cf here on the broader problem, noting esp. the point made by Wolfram. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2014
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MF: Pardon, but I must beg to differ here, and note again for record:
We continue to muddle two propositions. (A ) Everything that comes into existence has a cause. (B ) It is self-evident that (A ) is true. I think that at the QM level (A ) is false which would entail (B ) is false. The evidence for this being that QM scientists have built robust models without causes that account for what we observe.
As a matter of analysis of modes of being, we must never forget that enabling, on/off factors are also causes. Whether or no we know or can know SUFFICIENT clusters of causal factors for cases, I can say with confidence that I have never yet seen a quantum mechanical case here enabling actors with necessary causal impact were not present. Never. Not on photoelectric effects, not on chemical reactions, not on spectroscopy, not on radioactive decay or particle phenomena, not on even the idea of a cosmos popping up from a quantum field. Not on electron beam double-slit interference events. Not even with Schroedinger's unfortunate cat. And so forth. And of course, the case you posed at the beginning, to try to dismiss as a macro-event irrelevant to the quantum case, the fire, in fact fires are rapid oxidation reactions which are therefore quantum processes. They are made visible by another quantum process emission of photons, which often tell us on atoms involved through characteristic spectra, especially line spectra. The issue, I find, pivots on failure to fully appreciate that necessary causal factors are causal factors. We may not know sufficient factors that force an outcome just so just now just here, but we do know factors sufficient to establish stochastic patterns that are pretty definite, e.g. for alpha decay with the definite relationship and constraint dN/dt = - LAMBDA* N, N the current population of atoms. For something to actually be without cause, it must not have reflexive influence, it must not have causal influences from something in time and space, it must not be made of matter, it must not use energy or exhibit effects of energy, it must not come from or be influenced by information, design or mind or physically instantiated stochastic processes, etc etc. In short, this would be a case of something from nothing. Yes, many physicists speak loosely and ill advisedly along the lines you just raised, but that is a demonstrable error on their part. (Cf. the discussion and vid here.) Please rethink. KF PS: Getting late, later.kairosfocus
July 10, 2014
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So for example you cannot imagine a square circle...
Actually, even this is not quite self-evident either but depends on the geometry of the space in question. A square circle can't exist on a Euclidean plane with a normal Euclidean metric, but in a spherical geometry the largest possible square (say, one whose vertices are the two poles and two diametrically opposed equatorial points) is a perfect circle.Piotr
July 10, 2014
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MF: Good morning, I trust you continue to do well. I see your summary. I think we differ materially, e.g.
Why causality matters Mostly it is because of the argument from first cause or prime mover for the existence of God . . .
For me, causality primarily matters as it is a part of rational insight that makes ours an intelligible world. Understanding, help me, was a major motivation for my choice of field of study; if you will, my lifelong addiction. And so, to me it is all of a piece to seek to frame the process of reason in light of its roots. And, starting with that bright red ball A on the table and the resulting recognition of world partition, W = { A | NOT_A } thence seeing LOI, LNC and LEM as direct corollaries of that first act of rational perception, is pivotal to my thought. Thus, too, to see that there are plumbline, self-evident principles that are true -- accurately describe reality -- are necessarily true once understood, and are necessary on pain of patent absurdity, is foundational. In that context, it is a further rational step to ask, why A and seek, expect or at least hope for a good and sufficient reason in answer. This is a weak form Principle of Sufficient Reason [wPSR], it is enough to inquire into modes of being. And, it is unobjectionable. That, on examination one sees possible vs impossible beings pivoting on coherence of core attributes becomes significant, in answer to longstanding intellectual puzzles such as square circles. There is a reason why something CANNOT be like that, a powerful issue that ties back to LOI, LNC and LEM. Then, as one who studied a discipline where across the 1920's to the 1960's there was a revolution in astrophysics regarding moving from a steady state world in continual slow self creation (so that conservation of energy and matter is only a first approximation) to one with an expansion indicated by Hubble's red shift pointing to a singularity and beginning some 10 - 20 BYA, generally now 13.7 BYA or thereabouts, that was bound to have an impact. For me necessary and contingent beings are directly relevant to the nature of the observed cosmos, one of the objects of interest for my discipline. So, to think on this for myself seems a reasonable part of my intellectual duty. You will understand the impact of pondering a simple microcosm experiment, the burning of a match. And, BTW it is not coincidental that this example is used in Copi's Logic. Nor, that fire triangles and tetrahedrons [to deal with Halon extinguishers] are actually part of fire safety instruction for lab work and technology courses. So, causality is on the table, in the context of a discipline that has an almost endless supply of "effects" to study. It was logical to focus the distinction between sufficient and necessary causal factors, and to recognise the fundamental importance of necessary factors. The fire tetrahedron factors are each necessary for and together are jointly sufficient to start or sustain a fire. So, causally necessary, enabling, ON/OFF factors are pivotal. And in digital circuit contexts such conditions and factors are a commonplace. Set one input to a NAND gate low and it locks the output high. To enable signal passage, trip the input high. That's causal, and pivotal to the extremely puzzling behaviour of the RS latch, which only finite state machine analysis gave me a satisfactory answer to. Digital feedback and memory as a result leads to very strange things, especially with forbidden states. And, this is pivotal to sequential logic -- the logic that drives computers etc. Pulling back, I pondered, what of a thing that has no causal dependence on enabling factors? Impossible being, or if possible, no beginning nor end. Things like the construction of natural numbers on the empty set and a successive collection of sets assignable cardinalities 0, 1, 2 . . . as such beings, and the status of truths such as 2 + 3 = 5, fit in here. So also, how by using place value notation and sequences we can go continuum, also, by introducing complex numbers and the linked ijk vectors with time we can have trajectories etc. Thence a reason to see the deep embedding of the logic of mathematics in empirical reality. Coming back, I could see that causality is a corollary of wPSR in the context of modes of being, particularly possible, contingent beings present in some possible worlds but not others. So, for me, I find unifying insights that help make sense of reality. Which is more than sufficient motive in itself. Now, yes, I am a theist, indeed a Christian theist. But that itself has been an intellectual and life-impact journey, not a binding, blinding a priori. (Things like the miracle of guidance that saved my life as a child suffering a major chronic disease, count. That there are literally millions with life experiences pivoting on positively transforming living encounter with God also counts. So does the sort of historical grounding I have found, cf. here on.) I find, in that context, that it is very satisfying to view the eternal world of numbers etc as eternally contemplated by mind, a necessary being. And though I do not regard it as any ultimate proof, but instead a powerful articulation the concept of God as maximally great, necessary being is powerfully integrative . . . and just happens to make a lot of sense of ideas in theological traditions. Now, separately, I am a design thinker. One, profoundly impressed by the significance of functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information [FSCO/I], whether in text or computers or Thomson integrators or neural networks, or the world of life or the organisation of the physics of a credibly fine tuned cosmos. So was one of my intellectual heroes, the lifelong agnostic, Nobel equivalent prize holding astrophysicist Sir Fred Hoyle. The same who spoke so boldly at Caltech. So, let us come to reasonable terms, in understanding why we think as we do. And no, as you can see, the First Cause issue is not a primary concern on my part when I ponder first principles of right reason and linked themes. I find an infinite causal regress utterly unimpressive given the challenge to traverse a countable transfinite in succession implied on that. I find that it is self-evident at least to me that non-being . . . a proper nothing . . . can have no causal properties. It is not even the empty set, that's not nothing. In that context I see that a credibly contingent and fine tuned observable cosmos -- even through a multiverse [per Leslie's lone fly on the wall section swatted by a bullet] -- points to a designing mind and to a necessary being as root cause. Something with the power, knowledge, skill and purpose to build a universe. That, is satisfying intellectually on worldview level inference to best explanation, it is not a matter of fallacious question begging to prop up dubious notions held for other reasons. Likewise, I find that we, individually and collectively, are morally governed, with moral yardstick 1 . . . the kidnapped, raped murdered child who comes back to me again and again . . . as a patently self-evident case that shows the reality of OUGHT. So, we live in a world with a foundational IS that can bear the weight of OUGHT. That points, on inference to best explanation, to exactly one serious candidate: the inherently good Creator-God, a maximally great and necessary being. And so forth. Not, some imaginary perfect deductive chain, but a rope of many mutually reinforcing strands, so that the performance of the whole builds on the strengths of the parts, and compensates their limitations. I hope this helps building a bridge of understanding. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2014
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Mark: Thank you for trying to clarify your points. I really appreciate your goodwill. I can probably agree with some of the things that you say, not all, but again I don't want to go too much into the details. Just another comment about QM which can maybe contribute to the discussion. At quantum level, one of the problems could be that we should not necessarily reason in terms of "objects" or "things". We know how QM deals with more abstract mathematical entities, like the wave function. Moreover, entanglement and other aspects of QM pose serious difficulties to a conception of "objects" as isolated component of reality. That's why I say that probabilistic reasonings in QM are well defined laws. They may not describe each individual event, but they describe families of events quite well. And maybe families of events are more "real" than single events. The final point is, if reality takes specific forms, it is according to specific laws. Those laws may even include, in my view, the free choice of free agents. But there are laws which can explain how that free choice can be integrated in the existing laws. The argument for a prime cause of phenomenic reality is, IMO, a good argument, but it is mainly a philosophic argument. So, anyone can accept it or not, and science has not much to say beyond what is known of phenomenic reality. Deriving from QM the idea that the whole universe could come out of a quantum fluctuation is not, IMO, a good argument. Even if there were truth in that idea, we should just the same explain the existence of quantum laws in phenomenic reality, and how and why they can allow the emergence of an universe. The emergence of a functional and ordered universe is something more, it is a form of the ID argument applied to the whole universe. I have argued many times that IMO it is a good argument, but not as strong as the ID argument for biological information. The difference is that any discussion about the origin of the whole universe has inevitably some philosophical nature, while a discussion about the origin of specific objects in time and space is definitely and purely scientific in nature, even if it has philosophical implications.gpuccio
July 10, 2014
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Querius #357   You finish this comment:
All of this is to demonstrate your (likely unconscious) prejudice and dishonesty. No, I don’t care at all about my stupid alchemy analogy. It’s completely fulfilled its purpose.
I try to avoid personal comments but I would like to defend myself against charges of dishonesty (conscious or not). Reading through your comments I think this is a misunderstanding. It all started with my comment #85  that was intended as light-hearted response to what you admit was a stupid analogy. My concern was simply to point out that there must have been some natural process that created gold given that there was no gold at the beginning of the universe.  I was not trying to conjecture as to the actual process.  As far as I can tell from your comments you agree with this. I never was even aware of the NASA research until you linked to it.  I am sorry I didn’t express interest in the research. No doubt it is fascinating but one cannot take an interest in everything and it was not relevant to my argument.
No, what I actually said was, “Do you see how easy it is to be propagandized by authoritative speculation? Everyone’s susceptible, myself included.”Let me explain the difference. The spectral red-shift in the sodium D lines of stars is directly measurable. It is not speculation. The idea that gold formed as a result of supernovae is speculation. To not know the difference is a problem. It means that you’re way too trusting of the hopeful announcements from the scientific community.
I understand the difference, but as I was not even aware of the NASA research I can hardly have been propagandized by it. 
This is a massive mischaracterization of what I said. As anyone can confirm from querius@105, I said, “Speaking of evolution, would it be wrong to say that bacteria, and possibly viruses are actually the most evolved organisms on the planet? Think about it.”Notice that I didn’t say equally evolved, nor does it involve any “rights” granted by some constitution, court, or clown.
This is making an awful lot of what appears to be very little.  My main point is that “most evolved” is fairly meaningless term.  If you disagree that’s fine.  Explain what you mean and why you believe bacteria and viruses are the most evolved organisms on the planet.Mark Frank
July 10, 2014
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There have been so many comments overnight – many directed to me – that I cannot respond to them all.  I apologise if I miss anyone’s devastating debating point. It doesn’t mean I am trying to evade it. I will start with Gpuccio’s sensible comment:
So, I am not interested if it is “possible” that “a zebra suddenly appears in the living room for no reason”. I just want to know if it happens. In this world, in another world, anywhere.
Fair enough.  But it gives me an opportunity to summarise the debate as I see it and thus address some of the other comments. Why causality matters Mostly it is because of the argument from first cause or prime mover for the existence of God. If every contingent thing must have a cause then reality (being contingent) must have had a cause. That cannot be a contingent cause or it would itself need a cause. Therefore it is a necessary being and the best candidate for that is God.  Stephenb also seems to think that the assault on causality as self-evident is part of a broader move to destroy all self-evident propositions and the foundations of reality. (Actually I accept that statements such the LEM are always  true and we do not need empirical evidence to prove this. I just want to avoid debating them because I have different ideas about why they are always true which would distract from the discussion about causality) The Debate About Causality We continue to muddle two propositions.  (A )  Everything that comes into existence has a cause. (B ) It is self-evident that (A ) is true. I think that at the QM level (A ) is false which would entail (B ) is false. The evidence for this being  that QM scientists have built robust models without causes that account for what we observe. This is generally accepted as evidence for something not existing – think phlogiston or ether. However, Stephenb will not accept this as evidence because  he believes (B ) is true and therefore (A ) is axiomatic and there cannot be any evidence falsifying  it. So we were led on to discussing whether (B ) is true. One way to disprove (B ) is to show that it is possible that ( A ) is false even if there some doubt as to whether it is actually false.  KF likes to describe possibility in terms of possible worlds so for his sake I can phrase this as there are some possible worlds where (A ) is false. We never clarified what kind of possibility we are talking about but it seems pretty clear we are talking about logical possibility. If you can imagine something then it is logically possible. So for example you cannot imagine a square circle but you can imagine being transported instantly to a planet on another galaxy even though it is physically impossible.  Stephenb had already imagined the zebra appearing in the living room so I used that example to show it is possible (A ) is false and therefore (B ) is false. Phew! A few other points about causality. Several people have commented that (A ) is true and maybe (B ) because something can’t come from nothing or words to that effect.  I can do no more than repeat what I written many times above.  I contend that it is at least possible and maybe true at the QM level that things sometimes just appear.  They don’t “come from” anything. There is no “coming from” taking place. They are just absent one moment and present the next. I don’t understand why this is so hard to accept. This one is mainly for KF. KF has pointed out quite correctly that every event, including things coming into existence, has necessary conditions. Even the appearance of a particle at the QM level requires certain conditions to be in place before it can happen. I don’t dispute that (although I don’t think  it is self-evidently true). However, I think (A ) implies more than that. It implies that there are sufficient conditions for everything that comes into existence. If there were only necessary conditions for object X to come into existence that would imply that there were some possible worlds where object X existed and others where it didn’t and no enabling or blocking difference between the two possible worlds.  Returning to the argument from first cause, it makes no sense to talk of the conditions under which reality is caused because all conditions are part of reality. That is it for causality! I am unlikely to respond to any further comments on this subject in this thread because I think we have flogged the dead horse long enough. I will pick up other subjects in separate comments.Mark Frank
July 10, 2014
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Querius: Well, ATP synthase is being discussed after all. At least by us IDists! :) Thank you for your good contributions (as usual). #360 was specially funny and gratifying. I never had so many posts in one of my threads! So, a shameful self-contribution: here is #361. :)gpuccio
July 9, 2014
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I wonder who will post number 360? -QQuerius
July 9, 2014
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But Eric, don't you know that the ATP cycle coming about through scientific-sounding miraculous/magical means is far and away more credible than any other miraculous/magical means? ;-) -QQuerius
July 9, 2014
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Mark: Just noticed this gem from your earlier comment (H/T Vivid and KF):
May I be a bit sceptical about the hypothesis that the very first living thing had the whole ATP mechanism inserted by an undefined process?
There you go, focusing on the purely mechanistic aspect again. :) Furthermore, I thought it was particularly amusing that you would be critical of the ATP mechanism coming about by an "undefined process." That is pretty rich, given the naturalistic "explanation" (cough-cough) for the existence of the ATP mechanism.Eric Anderson
July 9, 2014
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Mark Frank@109 - It's been a while since I looked at this thread. Since you've been providing such a "target rich" environment, I thought I'd give you a glimpse of how some other folks here perceive your posts.
Querius #105 The supernovae theory is not the point.
This is what you posted after I demonstrated to you that you were not aware of what NASA recently published regarding the mystery of how gold came into existence. You were so sure, but apparently so wrong. How did you respond? Did you say, "Wow, I wasn't aware of this research and some important discoveries. This is really interesting!" No. You simply waved your hand and declared that it wasn't important. So much for your claims to be a seeker after truth.
It is accepted cosmology that at the beginning of the universe there weren’t even elements much less gold. Then hydrogen formed and gradually other elements were created.
Actually, it is accepted cosmology that we really don't have a clue how the universe or the "dark energy" required to stretch the fabric of the universe at an accelerating rate started. Give me some evidence why gold couldn't be one of the first elements to form in the small, finely tuned, super-dense early universe, and that extremely rapid inflation subsequently ripped the nuclei into the lighter elements.
So gold must have been created by some process, even it wasn’t the supernovae theory.
Oh wow, an epic retreat into the protective shell of a logical tautology! Really? You're bravely arguing that gold must have been created "by some process?" Be still my beating heart! LOL
Or are you saying all of current cosmology is propaganda?
No, what I actually said was, "Do you see how easy it is to be propagandized by authoritative speculation? Everyone’s susceptible, myself included." Let me explain the difference. The spectral red-shift in the sodium D lines of stars is directly measurable. It is not speculation. The idea that gold formed as a result of supernovae is speculation. To not know the difference is a problem. It means that you're way too trusting of the hopeful announcements from the scientific community.
I absolutely accept that some bacteria and certainly some viruses have as much right to be labelled highly evolved as we do.
This is a massive mischaracterization of what I said. As anyone can confirm from querius@105, I said, "Speaking of evolution, would it be wrong to say that bacteria, and possibly viruses are actually the most evolved organisms on the planet? Think about it." Notice that I didn't say equally evolved, nor does it involve any "rights" granted by some constitution, court, or clown. You revised what I said, and then responded to what was left with the following:
Basically “highly evolved” doesn’t mean much. So what?
No, not after you've mutilated my statement beyond all recognition. LOL All of this is to demonstrate your (likely unconscious) prejudice and dishonesty. No, I don't care at all about my stupid alchemy analogy. It's completely fulfilled its purpose. -QQuerius
July 9, 2014
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PS: I went on to observe: >> . . . First, standing by itself a SET has an objective character and is a first principle, a point of certain knowledge. But, that brings up the second aspect: we need to understand it, that we may grasp it. And, that may well fail, primarily by way of ignorance, secondarily by way of commitment to a contrary ideology that makes it difficult or even nearly impossible to acknowledge that which on the actual merits is self-evident. How can we address the problem? By understanding the significance of how rejecting a SET ends in absurdity. Which may be by outright obvious logical contradiction, or by undermining rationality or by being chaotically destructive and/or senseless. Moral SETs are usually seen as self evident in this latter sense. >>kairosfocus
July 9, 2014
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F/N: Let's clip the Angelic Doctor:
Now a thing is said to be self-evident in two ways: first, in itself; secondly, in relation to us. Any proposition is said to be self-evident in itself, if its predicate is contained in the notion of the subject: although, to one who knows not the definition of the subject, it happens that such a proposition is not self-evident. For instance, this proposition, “Man is a rational being,” is, in its very nature, self-evident, since who says “man,” says “a rational being”: and yet to one who knows not what a man is, this proposition is not self-evident. Hence it is that, as Boethius says (De Hebdom.), certain axioms or propositions are universally self-evident to all; and such are those propositions whose terms are known to all, as, “Every whole is greater than its part,” and, “Things equal to one and the same are equal to one another.” But some propositions are self-evident only to the wise, who understand the meaning of the terms of such propositions . . . . Now a certain order is to be found in those things that are apprehended universally. For that which, before aught else, falls under apprehension, is “being,” the notion of which is included in all things whatsoever a man apprehends. Wherefore the first indemonstrable principle is that “the same thing cannot be affirmed and denied at the same time,” which is based on the notion of “being” and “not-being”: and on this principle all others are based, as is stated in Metaph. iv, text. 9.
Worth a thought or two. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2014
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F/N: Sir Fred Hoyle speaks: ___________________ >> Once we see that life is cosmic it is sensible to suppose that intelligence is cosmic. Now problems of order, such as the sequences of amino acids in the chains which constitute the enzymes and other proteins, are precisely the problems that become easy once a directed intelligence enters the picture, as was recognised long ago by James Clerk Maxwell in his invention of what is known in physics as the Maxwell demon. The difference between an intelligent ordering, whether of words, fruit boxes, amino acids, or the Rubik cube, and merely random shufflings can be fantastically large, even as large as a number that would fill the whole volume of Shakespeare’s plays with its zeros. So if one proceeds directly and straightforwardly in this matter, without being deflected by a fear of incurring the wrath of scientific opinion, one arrives at the conclusion that biomaterials with their amazing measure or order must be the outcome of intelligent design. No other possibility I have been able to think of in pondering this issue over quite a long time seems to me to have anything like as high a possibility of being true.” [[Evolution from Space (The Omni Lecture[ --> Jan 12th 1982]), Enslow Publishers, 1982, pg. 28.] From 1953 onward, Willy Fowler and I have always been intrigued by the remarkable relation of the 7.65 MeV energy level in the nucleus of 12 C to the 7.12 MeV level in 16 O. If you wanted to produce carbon and oxygen in roughly equal quantities by stellar nucleosynthesis, these are the two levels you would have to fix, and your fixing would have to be just where these levels are actually found to be. Another put-up job? . . . I am inclined to think so. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has “monkeyed” with the physics as well as the chemistry and biology, and there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. [F. Hoyle, Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20 (1982): 16] The big problem in biology, as I see it, is to understand the origin of the information carried by the explicit structures of biomolecules. The issue isn’t so much the rather crude fact that a protein consists of a chain of amino acids linked together in a certain way, but that the explicit ordering of the amino acids endows the chain with remarkable properties, which other orderings wouldn’t give. The case of the enzymes is well known . . . If amino acids were linked at random, there would be a vast number of arrange-ments that would be useless in serving the pur-poses of a living cell. When you consider that a typical enzyme has a chain of perhaps 200 links and that there are 20 possibilities for each link,it’s easy to see that the number of useless arrangements is enormous, more than the number of atoms in all the galaxies visible in the largest telescopes. This is for one enzyme, and there are upwards of 2000 of them, mainly serving very different purposes. So how did the situation get to where we find it to be? This is, as I see it, the biological problem – the information problem . . . . I was constantly plagued by the thought that the number of ways in which even a single enzyme could be wrongly constructed was greater than the number of all the atoms in the universe. So try as I would, I couldn’t convince myself that even the whole universe would be sufficient to find life by random processes – by what are called the blind forces of nature . . . . By far the simplest way to arrive at the correct sequences of amino acids in the enzymes would be by thought, not by random processes . . . . Now imagine yourself as a superintellect working through possibilities in polymer chemistry. Would you not be astonished that polymers based on the carbon atom turned out in your calculations to have the remarkable properties of the enzymes and other biomolecules? Would you not be bowled over in surprise to find that a living cell was a feasible construct? Would you not say to yourself, in whatever language supercalculating intellects use: Some supercalculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule. Of course you would, and if you were a sensible superintellect you would conclude that the carbon atom is a fix . . . . I do not believe that any physicist who examined the evidence could fail to draw the inference that the laws of nuclear physics have been deliberately designed with regard to the consequences they produce within stars. [["The Universe: Past and Present Reflections." Engineering and Science, November, 1981. pp. 8–12] >> __________________ For reminder. KF PS: A discussion of what self=evidence means, from last year -- with a spot of help from the Angelic Doctor.kairosfocus
July 9, 2014
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Vivid: remember, ever since 1984 with Thaxton et al in TMLO -- the very first technical ID book -- it has been explicitly, specifically and repeatedly acknowledged that the evidence on the world of life is relevant to inferring design, but that it does not in and of itself suffice to infer to the nature of the relevant designer as being within or beyond the cosmos. I have put it this way, that the evidence regarding FSCO/I in life on earth could be adequately explained by a molecular nanotech lab some generations beyond Venter et al. So, what is going on there is the insistent but insistently unacknowledged fallacious setting up and knocking down of a strawman caricature, "Creationist in a cheap tuxedo" target. In language both MF and I will understand the subtle depths of, that's not Cricket. Then, it is on the evidence of a fine tuned cosmos set up in ways that facilitate C-chemistry cell based life, from the first four most abundant elements that so impressed lifelong agnostic and Nobel-equivalent prize holding astrophysicist, Sir Fred Hoyle: H, He, O, C. From core physics we get stars, gateway to the periodic table, water with all its unusual even strange properties, the connector block world of organic Chemistry. N is close by, IIRC 5th for our galaxy. That gives us the -NH2 group and thus amino acids and the chaining core of proteins. All, showing all the signs you would want, of a put-up job. Therefore also putting firmly at the table the question of mind before matter and the shaper not only of matter but the physics of matter -- which was just the subject of a bitterly fought retreat by those heavily invested in not accepting that blind, cause-effect chain GIGO constrained computation is qualitatively different from self-aware, insightful, meaning based rational contemplation. And yet, it's all of a piece, now that self-evident first principles of right reason are on the table including an unobjectionable weak-form Principle of Sufficient Reason and linked clarification of modes of being, that let us see how causality is a corollary to the wPSR. And so, that lends considerable force to your point:
Mark goes on to say.
For me the search for truth is a matter of logic and evidence and nothing else.
What Mark means by logic and what he means by evidence must be explored and clarified so that the various participants can be on the same page.
3. Skepticism is certainly an appropriate stance towards any specific hypothesis – Darwinian or otherwise. May I be a bit sceptical about the hypothesis that the very first living thing had the whole ATP mechanism inserted by an undefined process?,
Yet Mark seems to be not skeptical when it comes to things “springing” into existence from nothing, indeed maybe the whole universe! What can be a more undefined process than this????
Food for thought on what is really going on "at depth" as the volcanologists a few miles south of here are fond of saying in discussing the invisible things that drive surface phenomena. (And BTW, our old friend is still up to tricks at depth.) KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2014
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GPuccio, thanks for your forbearance. I suspect that the trajectory of the thread may not be exactly what you had hoped for. I will, therefore, make one final comment about causality, which will likely be my final word on the subject (at least on this thread). The point of fussing over first principles is not to displace evidence-based arguments with purely logical arguments, which would be an exercise in futility. It is to differentiate between evidence-based arguments that are rational and evidence-based arguments that are not rational. In my opinion, the conflict is less about the nature of the evidence and more about what can reasonably inferred from the evidence. Almost always, our adversaries assume, perhaps without realizing it--and certainly without disclosing it--that an effect can occur in the absence of a proportional cause. Maybe it’s the hope that minimum resources and limited tine can produce biodiversity; maybe it’s the claim that empty space can provide a quantum particle; maybe it’s the notion that matter can generate information; maybe it’s the idea that nothingness can create a universe. Whatever form it takes, it constitutes an assault on a self-evident truth: A cause cannot give what it does not have to give. If we take such an idea seriously and give it even the smallest amount of credence, we have lost the debate even before we enter the arena. Or, to paraphrase G. K. Chesterton's description of this phenomenon, "just grant me this one thing and the rest will be easy." Yes, we do well to respect the person who denies causality, but we should not respect the idea itself because it isn't respectable. Indeed, it is destructive. To be sure, human beings deserve to be treated mercifully and I strive to meet that standard daily. Bad ideas, on the other hand, deserve no mercy at all, and I show them no mercy.StephenB
July 9, 2014
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GP
I think there are two aspects here. One is really logical and terminological. I appreciate all the contributions about that, but still I am not sure of how much it is relevant to the empirical discussions about ID. No problem, however, in discussing it at large. This is probably where Mark is more concerned.
Understood however for Mark nothing less than the appearance of a designer will suffice as evidence. For Mark to invoke ID as the best explanation for ATP synthase is tantamount to saying a miracle occurred.
Why does it make sense to assume this? It is of course impossible to disprove but it is tantamount to saying a miracle occurred.
Basically you believe miracles happen from time to time and large chunks of genome are inserted into life by some undefined process. You are right. It is impossible to argue against this. This doesn’t mean that there is much from an ID point of view to be gained from studying the development of complex proteins. If you get into any difficulty you just assume a miracle happened at that point. This is not a fruitful approach to science. It is a practical necessity for anyone who is not assuming miracles to ignore the development of large proteins. There just isn’t sufficient data.
Mark goes on to say.
For me the search for truth is a matter of logic and evidence and nothing else.
What Mark means by logic and what he means by evidence must be explored and clarified so that the various participants can be on the same page.
3. Skepticism is certainly an appropriate stance towards any specific hypothesis – Darwinian or otherwise. May I be a bit sceptical about the hypothesis that the very first living thing had the whole ATP mechanism inserted by an undefined process?,
Yet Mark seems to be not skeptical when it comes to things "springing" into existence from nothing, indeed maybe the whole universe! What can be a more undefined process than this???? Vividvividbleau
July 9, 2014
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GP: The QM issue is one reason I point out the three common types of causes -- necessary, sufficient, contributory. For something to be non-caused, it cannot be affected by any of the three. And in fact it is fairly easy to see that there are generally speaking enabling, necessary causal factors involved in QM phenomena. Such, then are hardly a-causal. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2014
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EA: In fact, the exchange began way above, when I suggested that an excellent way to understand cause and effect would be to go get a box of matches and experiment with it in the context of the fire triangle or tetrahedron. That was objected to and the issue of quantum cases was raised. I have several times pointed out that a fire is a quantum case doubly, the rapid oxidation and the emission of light (including oftentimes interesting line spectra and what fireworks folks do). The issue of roots of causality came up and thus first principles of right reason which via issues of good and sufficient reason and modes of being possible/impossible and contingent/necessary, land us where we are. Even nothingness and non-being, where some would pull a cosmos out of a quantum field relabelled as nothing . . . as a way to dismiss the cosmological design inference and the significance of evidence pointing to a fine tuned cosmos of finite past duration. These are the underlying issues and categories that frame what empirical, scientific discussions and thought can do. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2014
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vividbleau: I think there are two aspects here. One is really logical and terminological. I appreciate all the contributions about that, but still I am not sure of how much it is relevant to the empirical discussions about ID. No problem, however, in discussing it at large. This is probably where Mark is more concerned. The other is more empirical, because it refers to real events in the phenomenic world. If I understand well, the basis for denying traditional causality here comes especially from some intepretations of QM. I think that Piotr made some statements in that sense, if I understand well his positions. I have tried to object to this second type of argument. Quantum events are not "non causal". Not at all. They obey a different type of causality, which we still do not understand completely (see all the debates still going on about the real meaning of QM). That is certainly interesting, because the type of causality in QM is the best suited to act as interface to consciousness and free will, as discussed many times. But it is in no way a negation of law and reason and order in the state of things. The application of some quantum ideas to the generation of the whole universe (popping out of nothing, or popping out of multiverses, or popping out of multi-nothings, or just not popping out at all) is IMO bad philosophy. There is some aspect in the multiverse hypothesis that can be of interest, as far as it can be supported by scientific aspects of the QM theory, but the use of the idea to deny causality and law and to support ridiculous scenarios where everything can and will happen somewhere is really bad philosophy and nothing else.gpuccio
July 9, 2014
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GP
Why apologize? I appreciate the discussion here, and it is certainly of great value. I just try to contribute as I can, and from my personal point of view. Please, don’t “go back to lurker status”! I love your interventions.
As you can see I cant help myself :) On a serious note and to circle back to trying to keep things on the empirical. There can never be any empirical evidence of nothing since nothing has no physical substance of any kind.This means that to propose nothing as the cause of something or that something springs into existence from nothing is not an empirical observation. It is beyond (meta) physics. It is a metaphysical position passed of as physics. Vividvividbleau
July 9, 2014
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MF: Pardon me for my aside to the thread owner, but he pretty directly addressed us. I believed I needed to show a connexion of the exchange that has developed to the thematic focus of this thread. At this point, I am highlighting again, that the sorts of entities that would be even considerable as candidates for the contingent but uncaused beings you suggest have to face rather stringent constraints:
Such a being is not material or energy [thus is not a quantum phenomenon . . . and Q-mech cannot be called up in empirical support], cannot be made of components, is not a proposition or number or mental construct of any type. Is not even a ghost as a ghost comes from a living being if such exist.
Such a candidate being is not conceptual or empirical. How is it different from nothing? What would be even possible as evidence that such exists? Let's consider your remarks: >> it is conceivable that there is something that does not need anything to “pop it up”.>> 1 --> Nope, we may make a form of words to that effect, but we may also make a form of words to the effect square circle and may form some vague ghostly mental image. 2 --> That makes no difference to the fact that it is easily seen that a square circle is an impossible being. >> It just appears – without anything popping it up – not an external force, not itself, not “nothing”.>> 3 --> Again, assertions making up forms of words rather than good reasons. 4 --> Recall, nothing implies non-being. If something that begins is not causally influenced by anything, that only leaves nothing . . . which can indeed have no causal influence, so the issue is that you are implying something coming from nothing with no reason and appearing in space and time. >> As Stephenb puts it a zebra suddenly appears in the living room for no reason.>> 5 --> Just so, a something from nothing case. 6 --> But also a problem, cause is not just antecedent to something, it can be contemporaneous with it. 7 --> A zebra in particular is a being based on a body with involved matter, energy, organisation etc etc. All of this is a range of relevant enabling causal factors. 8 --> So, you have cited as an example that which cannot be an example of what you want. >> In some possible worlds it pops up. In others it doesn’t.>> 9 --> But, such an example even if one were to pop up would not be without enabling cause. >> I know its absurd and it will not happen in our possible world, but that is not the point.>> 10 --> You have specified a being that begins without enabling causal influences, but the case in point is just the opposite. >> It is imaginable and therefore there is a possible world where it does happen and therefore it is not self-evident that it cannot happen. >> 11 --> No, this case is imaginable by overlooking a material consideration only. It is not in fact an example of what is suggested. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2014
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vividbleau: Why apologize? I appreciate the discussion here, and it is certainly of great value. I just try to contribute as I can, and from my personal point of view. Please, don't "go back to lurker status"! I love your interventions. :)gpuccio
July 9, 2014
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GP <Just to say something, I would like to know if it is possible to move a little the discussion to the empirical level, without renouncing to debate the problem of cause or not cause. Actually I tried to apply it to the empirical level.MF stated that to say there is no cause is to say that nothing caused it. I asked MF for empirical evidence for "nothing" which he claims is the cause.
but we imagine some kind of state of nothing.,
Silver just picking at nits but nothing has no state :)
In short, the problems we face begin far, far before the issue of living in a world that is orderly and shows stable empirical patterns that may legitimately be understood as causal.
KF Exactly!!! Vividvividbleau
July 9, 2014
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gpuccio @337:
So, I am not interested if it is “possible” that “a zebra suddenly appears in the living room for no reason”. I just want to know if it happens. In this world, in another world, anywhere. The fact that we can “imagine” that “a zebra suddenly appears in the living room for no reason” is no evidence that such a thing happens. It is just evidence that we can imagine it. It’s not the same thing. So, does “a zebra suddenly appears in the living room for no reason”, any where? I don’t think so.
Well said. It is important to think in terms of practical possibilities, not pure logical possibilities. The latter may serve as an occasional thought experiment, but is not very useful in understanding reality. I am reminded of Bill Dembski's excellent essay from several years ago: http://www.designinference.com/documents/2002.12.Unfettered_Resp_to_Orr.htmEric Anderson
July 9, 2014
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KF @340: The observation you make is particularly poignant when we notice on so many occasions that such hyperskepticism seems to be applied only in those instances in which the subject matter impacts a foundational philosophical/worldview. It is unlikely such individuals would adhere to such tactics if the discussion were about, say, the best way to engineer a new piece of computer equipment or the way to approach a discovery from SETI or the way to interpret a new archaeological dig. The hyperskepticism is less a rational argument than it is a last-ditch refuge from the obvious facts at hand.Eric Anderson
July 9, 2014
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