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Four fallacies evolutionists make when arguing about biological function (part 1)

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First of all, I want to apologize for shamelessly copying the title and structure of a recent post by VJ Torley. VJ, I hope you will pardon me: imitators, after all, are an undeniable mark of true success! 🙂

That said, let’s go to the subject of this post. I have discussed a little bit about biological function in my previous posts, and I have received many comments about that topic, some of them from very good interlocutors (I would like to publicly thank here Piotr and wd400, in particular). From my general experience in this blog during the last few years, I would like to sum up some of the more questionable attitudes and arguments which I have witnessed most frequently from the “other side” about this concept. Indeed, my purpose here is to catch not so much the specific arguments, but rather the general perspectives which are behind them, and which I believe to be wrong (that’s why I call them “fallacies” in the title).

So, here we go. First the whole list, then we analyze each individual point.

1. The fallacy of denying the objectivity of function.

2.  The fallacy of overemphasizing the role of generic function.

3. The fallacy of downplaying the role of specific function.

4. The fallacy of completely ignoring the highest form of function: the procedures.

I will deal with the first three issue in this post, and with the fourth in a later post.

1. The fallacy of denying the objectivity of function.

This attitude takes the form of an obstinate resistance to the concept itself of function, as though it were something which does not exist. So it happens that, as soon as we IDists start talking about functional specification, there is always someone on the other side ready to question: “Yes, but how do you define function?”. Or to argue that function is just a subjective concept, and that it has no role in science.

Many times I have simply answered: “Hey, just look at some protein database, like Uniprot. You will easily find, for each protein listed there, the voice: “Molecular function”. And usually there is one or more functions listed there. Is that bad science? Are you going to write to the people who run Uniprot asking them what do they mean by that word?”

The truth is that practically everybody understands perfectly what function means, and the attitude of denying the concept is just that: simple denial, motivated by the (correct) conviction that the concept itself of function is definitely ID friendly. .

However, the more sophisticated among our interlocutors will not deny function in such a gross way, but they will probably try to argue that the concept is obscure, vague, ill defined, and therefore not reliable. Here we find objections such as: “What do you mean exactly with the word?” or “To what kind of function do you refer?” or “Function can change according to how we define the context”. There is some truth in these thoughts, but in no way such objections are a real problem if we treat the concept of function correctly.

For example, in my previous post “Functional information defined” I have given the following definitions:

I will try to begin introducing two slightly different, but connected, concepts:

a) A function (for an object)

b) A functionality (in a material object)

I define a function for an object as follows:

a) If a conscious observer connects some observed object to some possible desired result which can be obtained using the object in a context, then we say that the conscious observer conceives of a function for that object.

b) If an object can objectively be used by a conscious observer to obtain some specific desired result in a certain context, according to the conceived function, then we say that the object has objective functionality, referred to the specific conceived function.

I will stick to those definitions.

So, function can be objectively defined, even if some reference to a conscious observer conceiving and recognizing it is always necessary.

It is perfectly true that different functions can be defined for the same object. There is no problem there. It is also true that functions can be stratified at different levels. Uniprot correctly lists “molecular functions”. So, for example, hexokinase has the molecular function of binding ATP and phosphorylating glucose or other hexoses, That is what I call the “local function”, the immediate biochemical effect of the molecule. But we can also say that the role of hexokinase is to start the glycolysis process and therefore contribute to the extraction of energy from food in the form of ATP, a role which would not be immediately obvious from the local function (which, instead, consumes ATP). This is a meta-function, because it describes the role of the enzyme in a wider context. We can say that the local function contributes to the meta-function.

In ID theory, local functions are specially interesting when we try to compute the functional complexity of a single protein. For that, we must refer to its immediate biochemical effect. But the meta-function is specially interesting too, when we try to analyze the complexity of a whole system of molecules, such as a protein cascades. In this kind of analysis, the concept of irreducible complexity is very important.

The important point is: denying function, or denying that it can be treated objectively in a scientific context, is a fallacy.

2.  The fallacy of overemphasizing the role of generic function.

This is generally what I call the concept of “any possible function”, which is so often invoked by darwinists as a reason to believe in the power of natural selection and of the neo-darwinian RV + NS algorithm.

The reasoning is more or less the following: as NS is not looking for anything particular, it will detect everything possible which is “useful”. IOWs, NS has no prejudices, and therefore it is very powerful, much more powerful of old good intelligent design, which is confined to intelligent options. That was one of Petrushka’s favourite arguments, but in different ways it has been proposed by many darwinist commentators here.

Now, I hate quoting myself again, but if you look at the above definition of “function”, you will see that everything can be functional in some context. Function is not a rare thing, because, as already said:

If a conscious observer connects some observed object to some possible desired result which can be obtained using the object in a context, then we say that the conscious observer conceives of a function for that object.”

Now, as we can conceive of a lot of desires (that is certainly a very human prerogative), functions are very easy to get. In any context, we can use practically anything to obtain some result. That’s why I rarely throw away anything because, you know, “it could be useful, sooner or later”.

Does that reinforce the darwinist concept that “any possible function” is relevant?

Not at all. Quite the contrary. Just because possible functions are everywhere, it is easy to see that only some specific functions are really relevant in a specific context.

So, if I go to my attic, I can maybe find some use for any kind of junk that I may find there. But, if I happen to find a forgotten working computer there, I can certainly use it in a very specific way.

So, I would say that there is a great difference between finding some piece of wood which could perhaps be adapted to some use, and finding a working computer. The piece of wood is an example of “any possible function”, while the computer is an example of specific, complex function.

And, as anyone should understand, even if I find 1000 pieces of wood in my attic, that will not give me a working computer. IOWs, simple generic functions do not naturally add to a complex specific function.

So, why am I saying that darwinists tend to overemphasize the role of generic function?  The reason is simple: generic function is all they have, all they can deal with. Their only “engine of variation”, which is RV, can only, at best, generate simple generic function, nothing more. So, what do we do when we have only such and such?   We overemphasize the importance of such and such. Not because it is important, but because it is the only thing we have. An old fallacy, but always a common one.

3. The fallacy of downplaying the role of specific function.

The simple truth is that, especially in a system which is already complex, functional changes usually require complex interventions. Indeed, the addition of a truly new function to an existing complex system requires not only the complexity implicit in the function itself, but also the complexity necessary to integrate the new function in the existing system.

As already said, in the biological context there are two different ways to look at functions: what I call the “local function”, IOWs, the immediate biochemical activity of the molecule, and the “meta-functions”, IOWs, the general results of the activity of that molecule in the whole system.

Let’s take a molecule as an example: ATP synthase. A classic.

It is a very good example, because:

a) It is a very old molecule, already present in LUCA, before the archaea-bacteria divergence, almost 4 billion years ago.

b) It is a very complex molecule: it is made of two different parts, F0 and F1, each of them made of many subunits, and each subunit is a complex protein.

c) It is a very functional protein, indeed a wonderful molecular machine which transforms a proton gradient into stored biochemical energy in the form of ATP, working very much like a mill.

d) It is a very conserved protein. Let’s take only the subunits alpha and beta, which make most of the F1 part. a multiple alignment between: the human protein, the archaea protein (methanosarcina barkeri) and the bacterial protein (E. coli) showed 176 identities for the alpha subunit and 202 identities for the beta subunit. A total of 378 perfectly conserved aminoacid positions in just two of the many subunits of the molecule, along the whole tree of life.

e) Its local function is very clear: it synthesizes ATP from the energy derived from a proton gradient, transforming the flow of H+ ions into a mechanical rotation which in turn couples the phosphate molecule to ADP.

f) Its meta-function is equally clear: it generates the energy substrate which makes all cellular life possible: ATP.

Now, 378 identities after about 4 billion years during which all possible neutral mutations had time to happen mean just one thing: those 378 AAs must be there, and they must be what they are for the molecule to work.

This is a very good example of a very specific and complex function. In a complex context (cellular life), where the function is useful because there are a lot of individual processes whic h depend on ATP to exist. It is not the piece of wood in the attic. It is a supercomputer, an amazing molecular machine.

Well, are darwinists  curious, concerned or worried because of such specific complex functions which can be found in the old attic of OOL? Not at all. They are confident that they can be readily dealt with. There is an appropriate tool, usually called “the just so story”. For a good example, just read the Wikipedia section about ATP synthase, the part under “Evolution of ATP synthase”. Have fun.

The problem is: complex functional proteins simply cannot be explained. So, why should we think that they must be explained? After all, we can find so many generic functions in our attic: small variations in a gene which can give antibiotic resistance through one or two AA mutations, small changes in the affinity of an existing esterase which confer a nylonase activity through a couple of mutations, the selective spread in specific populations of the heterozigote state of drepanocytosis (one mutation) which gives some resistance to malaria. With all those good pieces of wood which can be used to fix some old chair, who cares about those stunning supercomputers which crowd our attic? They are just there, let’s not be fastidious about the details.

Well, that’s enough for the moment. We will discuss the “procedures” fallacy in next post.

Comments
F/N, FTR (cf 193): Take, as discussed so long ago, a bright red ball A on a table. Immediately, we have a world partition: W = { A | NOT-A } Immediately present in that act of recognising a world partition are the law of Identity, non-contradiction and excluded middle. Those are the core first principles of right reason and we cannot even communicate with text or words without recognising them. To refuse these, is in the profoundest way, is to be stubbornly irrational. Beyond, on seeing A, we may freely ask why A is, and find from that the expectation or at least hope of a good, sufficient reason. That is enough to recognise possible [unicorns] vs impossible [square circle] beings. It is enough to see of possible beings, contingent and necessary ones. Where contingent beings will have at least one on/off enabling factor (a key type of cause), which means they will not exist in all possible worlds, e.g. the flaming of a match. Something like the truth 2 + 3 = 5 is not dependent on such factors, never began, cannot cease, holds in any possible world. For MF, I would love to see his first principles that do not entail or implicitly rely on or use these three plus one principles. I know that so soon as he types text, he exerts world partitions that will instantly swing these into play. And that holds for Physicists trying to compose Q-mech too, so soon as they scratch their first expression on the proverbial chalk-board. Nope, as the WACs under the Refs tab long since laid out, Q-mech is no escape hatch. If you doubt me simply ponder Einstein’s desk as he left it, and the chalkboard. You are free to reason P => Q, I object to Q so I dismiss P, but the problem is NOT-Q is ALSO a commitment with entailments. And, at this level, you will need to examine what is implicit in assuming or asserting or implying that something A is, but without good and sufficient reason in one or more external factors or in and of itself in light of possibility vs impossibility of being and contingency vs necessity of possible beings, for which all that is needed is the weak form PSR that invites actual reflection rather than dismissal. Where, obviously, contingent possible beings have one or more on/off enabling factors, much like a flame. The case highlighted at 188 shows how much hot water that can get into how fast, cf. the May 2013 remarks here on trying to pull a cosmos out of a non-existent hat. KF PS: On the but quantum events are uncaused front, let us recognise that causal factors come in different forms. While we may not know the SUFFICIENT cluster of factors that lead to a pion decaying after x microseconds, or a nucleus after Y seconds, etc, we do know that absent certain enabling factors such events cannot occur. That is, we know there are (often, trivially simple) ENABLING factors that are NECESSARY for an event. The existence of a pi meson or an alpha-decay unstable nucleus is necessary for its decay is as basic as it comes, for instance. That's obvious and uninteresting, one is tempted to say. But, it reflects a lesson we need to learn from the ancients: multiple factors may interact in the course of an event, and if such antecedents are necessary, we do not have a case of a-causal events. In short, we do not have something from nothing. Which makes sense -- nothing (non-being . . . Try Schaeffer's mark a zero on a chalk board then erase it then the board and even the space in which it was . . . ) has no abilities and can have no consequences nor can it contribute to an event as a causal factor. Moreover, that something happens by one of a cluster of pathways and/or may follow a statistical distribution or pattern, does not entail want of causal factors. Where, to be without cause, there must be no antecedent causal factors. PPS: Wiki, on causality, gives a useful summary in its introduction . . . as usual cited as speaking against known ideological tendency, and I add remarks on the elephant standing in the middle of the room, Aristotle's four answers to why (with implications too as to "how") -- his four "be-causes." A further clip, on sufficiency, necessity and contributory factors seems to also be relevant:
Causality (also referred to as causation[1]) is the relation between an event (the cause) and a second event (the effect), where the second event is understood as a consequence of the first.[2] In common usage, causality is also the relation between a set of factors (causes) and a phenomenon (the effect). Anything that affects an effect is a factor of that effect. A direct factor is a factor that affects an effect directly, that is, without any intervening factors. (Intervening factors are sometimes called "intermediate factors".) The connection between a cause(s) and an effect in this way can also be referred to as a causal nexus. Though the causes and effects are typically related to changes or events, candidates include objects, processes, properties, variables, facts, and states of affairs . . . . Of Aristotle's four kinds or explanatory modes, only one, the 'efficient cause' is a cause as defined in the leading paragraph of this present article. The other three explanatory modes would now be called material composition, structure and dynamics, and, again, criterion of completion. The word that Aristotle used was ?????. For the present purpose, that Greek word would be better translated as "explanation" than as "cause" as those words are most often used in current English. Another translation of Aristotle is that he meant "the four Becauses" as four kinds of answer to "why" questions.[3] In some works of Aristotle, the four causes are listed as (1) the essential cause, (2) the logical ground, (3) the moving cause, and (4) the final cause. In this listing, a statement of essential cause is a demonstration that an indicated object conforms to a definition of the word that refers to it. A statement of logical ground is an argument as to why an object statement is true. These are further examples of the idea that a "cause" in general in the context of Aristotle's usage is an "explanation".[3] The word "efficient" used here can also be translated from Aristotle as "moving" or "initiating" . . . . Causes are often distinguished into two types: Necessary and sufficient.[13] A third type of causation, which requires neither necessity nor sufficiency in and of itself, but which contributes to the effect, is called a "contributory cause."[14] Necessary causes: If x is a necessary cause of y, then the presence of y necessarily implies the presence of x. The presence of x, however, does not imply that y will occur. [--> i.e. something else may be involved, cf factors for a flame . . . which to answer a rabbit trail is a doubly quantum process amplified to the macro-world, (i) a chain chemical reaction, and (ii) a linked photon emission process that often yields characteristic spectral lines that inform us as to just which elements etc are interacting] Sufficient causes: If x is a sufficient cause of y, then the presence of x necessarily implies the presence of y. However, another cause z may alternatively cause y. Thus the presence of y does not imply the presence of x. Contributory causes: A cause may be classified as a "contributory cause", if the presumed cause precedes the effect, and altering the cause alters the effect. [--> think, fire accelerants] It does not require that all those subjects which possess the contributory cause experience the effect. It does not require that all those subjects which are free of the contributory cause be free of the effect. In other words, a contributory cause may be neither necessary nor sufficient but it must be contributory.
. . . I think this helps us clarify what we are talking about. In UD debate contexts, for clarity, I have often spoken of necessary factors as enabling, on/off factors. Absence of X blocks Y, but presence of X does not force Y. And of course, a specific effect at a given location, time etc, has its specific set of causal factors which must include all enabling ones and must be sufficient for the result. This includes the possibility of things like creating a distribution of components that create a distribution and statistical effect with associated probabilities. As, we see with stochastic processes in which clusters of states are consistent with given macro conditions.kairosfocus
July 7, 2014
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Stephenb
However, that is not a good enough reason for me to abandon it. Its the core of what we are discussing. Everything turns on it. All reasoning, including scientific reasoning, begins with self-evident truths.
I am not asking you to abandon it. I am only disputing whether the law of causality is one of those self-evident truths.Mark Frank
July 7, 2014
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Stephenb
The second clause does not follow from the first.
I didn’t claim it did.  The two clauses were two related but different reasons.
Quantum physicists cannot decide on the philosophical question about whether causes exist. They simply don’t have the tools. Science assumes causality and conducts it investigations accordingly. Any quantum theorist who says otherwise is revealing his ignorance about philosophy and the rules of reason.
There you again – arguing from the assumption that the law of causality is a rule of right reason. These scientists did not assume causality and found a workable model that included the hypothesis that some events are uncaused.  I suspect they couldn’t care a damn about philosophy and the rules of reason – especially as philosophers themselves do not agree about it (or anything else come to that).
No argument can be made from evidence to the existence or non-existence of causality. If you believe that such an argument from evidence to the existence or non-existence of causality can be made, then go ahead and present it. You can present no such argument.
I did present the argument. I will repeat it. If we fail to find a cause and can build a theoretical model that matches the observed world that does not include causes – then that is evidence that some things do not have causes. It is exactly the same kind of evidence that is used to substantiate most of science. You only dismiss it because you assume that the law of causality is a rule of right reason and therefore any evidence that it is false must be in error.
But you haven’t presented an argument for that position. Your argument is that is it unlikely to happen because it hasn’t happened yet. That is not the same thing as saying that it “cannot happen.” How do you justify the claim that it cannot happen if your reject causality as a law.
My actual case was that is has not been observed and it would break established laws of physics.  This is as good evidence as we have for the law of gravity. I think I can reasonably say that the law of gravity will never be broken ( but of course you could imagine what it would be like if it were broken).  I could never prove that is logically impossible that an object could suddenly appear at a macro scale because it is logically possible. It is just that we have massive empirical evidence that it can’t happen.
Yes, but you have not told us, given your argument, how you can distinguish those things which were caused from those things which were not caused?
Yes I did. But let me try rephrasing it.  We distinguish those things that are caused by observing the cause and building theoretical models that account for what we observe that include a cause. We distinguish those things that are not caused by failing to find a cause and building theoretical models that account for what we observe that do not include a cause. This seems fairly straightforward!
That isn’t true at all. To characterize the laws of non-contradiction and causality as self-evident principles that are the foundations of reason is not to assume my conclusion. All reasoning begins with self-evident truths. It cannot begin, as you seem to think, from scientific evidence, which relies on reason’s principles. You have never addressed this point.
This is utterly bizarre. You are arguing that causality is a self-evident principle which is a the foundation of reason. You then write the sentence I have highlighted above.  What could be a clearer case of assuming the truth of what you are trying to prove?
Much less have you provided your list of reason’s principles and told us which ones are, in your judgment, negotiable. Are the laws of non-contradiction and identity now negotiable for you since some philosophically challenged quantum theorists reject them? That was, after all, your stated reason for rejecting causality as a law.
As I have said repeatedly the the laws of non-contradiction and identity are a more difficult subject and you will not draw me into that debate however hard you try.  It is quite bad enough dealing with the law of causality.Mark Frank
July 7, 2014
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What I said was statistics had nothing to do with cause and effect, so what are you trying to correct?
Well, you should take care to write more clearly then. You seem to imply in your comment that the reason for the specific half-life of a pion had to do with statistics. At the same time, you claim that there is no reason (cause) for it. Make up your mind.
So if a particle has several alternative modes of decay, what causes it to “choose” a particular mode and decay,
The particle does not choose a particular mode of decay. The type of decay depends on which force is unbalanced.
and what causes it to “choose” time t rather than a little earlier or a little later?
I think I know the answer to this: there is no such thing as a physical time dimension as Einstein claimed. Thus nature cannot calculate temporal intervals. It is forced to use probability in order to obey conservation principles in the long run. I am essentially arguing that, at every discrete step, nature chooses at random a fixed percentage of all pions in the universe to decay. The actual percentage depends on the energies involved.
And, please, don't tell other people they are ignorant or stupid just after you've said all that stuff about conservation laws.
Well, you should correct me if you think I'm wrong. I'm not one to hold on to erroneous views in the face of contrary evidence. I'm just reacting to your strange insistence that particle decay is uncaused. Of course, it's not so strange since we all know why you are making such a braindead claim: you got a religion to defend.Mapou
July 7, 2014
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Evidence does not inform reason's rules; reason's rules inform evidence. Mark
I don’t concede it because I think it is not as simple you present it.
It is, indeed, that simple.
I don’t want to deal with it here and now because I don’t have the time to address such a difficult subject.
I have no doubt that you don't want to deal with that subject matter. However, that is not a good enough reason for me to abandon it. Its the core of what we are discussing. Everything turns on it. All reasoning, including scientific reasoning, begins with self-evident truths.StephenB
July 7, 2014
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Mark:
I wrote: As I understand it, quantum physicists have been unable to identify anything that could be the cause of some quantum events and the best model they can produce is that these events have no cause.
The second clause does not follow from the first. Quantum physicists cannot decide on the philosophical question about whether causes exist. They simply don't have the tools. Science assumes causality and conducts it investigations accordingly. Any quantum theorist who says otherwise is revealing his ignorance about philosophy and the rules of reason. No argument can be made from evidence to the existence or non-existence of causality. If you believe that such an argument from evidence to the existence or non-existence of causality can be made, then go ahead and present it. You can present no such argument. SB: So, in your judgment, a horse could pop up in your living room without a cause? A brick wall could appear in front of your moving automobile without a cause?
It couldn’t in practice happen at our scale.
But you haven't presented an argument for that position. Your argument is that is it unlikely to happen because it hasn't happened yet. That is not the same thing as saying that it "cannot happen." How do you justify the claim that it cannot happen if your reject causality as a law.
You argue that everything that comes into existence must have a cause is a rule of right reason.
Of course.
I argue that it is just a contingent attribute and that some events including things coming into existence may not have causes.
Yes, but you have not told us, given your argument, how you can distinguish those things which were caused from those things which were not caused?
Some of your arguments assume what you are trying to prove.
That isn't true at all. To characterize the laws of non-contradiction and causality as self-evident principles that are the foundations of reason is not to assume my conclusion. All reasoning begins with self-evident truths. It cannot begin, as you seem to think, from scientific evidence, which relies on reason's principles. You have never addressed this point. Much less have you provided your list of reason's principles and told us which ones are, in your judgment, negotiable. Are the laws of non-contradiction and identity now negotiable for you since some philosophically challenged quantum theorists reject them? That was, after all, your stated reason for rejecting causality as a law.StephenB
July 7, 2014
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Stephenb   I just noticed this one.
Evidence does not inform reason’s rules; reason’s rules inform evidence. The process cannot be reversed. There is nothing complicated or abstruse about that proposition. The reason that I characterized it as an unassailable argument is because it is an unassailable argument. Why you refuse to concede it or even deal with it is a mystery. Or, maybe it isn’t such a mystery after all (another example of bending truth to desire?)
I don’t concede it because I think it is not as simple you present it. I don’t want to deal with it here and now because I don’t have the time to address such a difficult subject.  and I don't want to distract from the simpler (but still difficult) subject of the law of causality. I thought I already explained this in #215.  Mark Frank
July 7, 2014
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Mapou: I have no idea what you are reading into my post, bu I can assure you it's your imagination, not anything I have said.
Piotr, first off, statistics is just observation and causes nothing.
What I said was statistics had nothing to do with cause and effect, so what are you trying to correct?
If you don’t know why particle decay is probabilistic, then it’s obvious that you are prevaricating. We certainly are not going to let you tell us that it is caused by nothing. Your opinion is disqualified by virtue of your ignorance.
So if a particle has several alternative modes of decay, what causes it to "choose" a particular mode and decay, and what causes it to "choose" time t rather than a little earlier or a little later? And, please, don't tell other people they are ignorant or stupid just after you've said all that stuff about conservation laws.Piotr
July 6, 2014
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Stephenb  
As a logician, you should know that the statement “there is no cause” does not follow from the statement “we have not found the cause.” Thus, when you say that quantum events occur uncaused, you are making a faith-based statement that is not, nor can it be, grounded in empirical evidence.
Why did you edit my response? I wrote: As I understand it, quantum physicists have been unable to identify anything that could be the cause of some quantum events and the best model they can produce is that these events have no cause. This may not prove with logical certainty there is no cause (I never claimed that) but it is good evidence.
Whether or not a planet has a moon is not even remotely pertinent to the question. Never mind the unrelated problem of how one could discover a moon that doesn’t exist.
Why is it not related?  You made an argument of the form: “How can I know if A has attribute X if in principle A may not have X”. My example shows that this is easily done. I see you didn’t address all my other points about causality in #215. Let’s get to the real essence of this.  You argue that everything that comes into existence must have a cause is a rule of right reason. I argue that it is just a contingent attribute and that some events including things coming into existence may not have causes.  As far as I can see the only argument you have made for this is that if noting else causes something to come into existence then it must cause itself to come into existence.  As I said above this doesn’t follow. You didn’t respond. A couple of other points: * If the law of causality is a rule of right reason then it should be impossible to imagine something coming into existence without a cause. It may even be that everything does have a cause and it still not a rule of right reason.  There are lots of natural laws that are always true but they are not rules of right reason.  we have no problem imagining something popping into existence for no reason. Indeed you offer examples yourself.   * Some of your arguments assume what you are trying to prove. For example, when you write:
No amount of evidence could possibly lead to such a conclusion, as you yourself indicated by acknowledging that evidence cannot judge or evaluate reasons rules, which are the judges and evaluators of evidence. The thing being judged cannot also be the judge as the law of non-contradiction makes clear.
This argument would only work if the law of causality is a rule of right reason. To make your case you can’t assume it is true.Mark Frank
July 6, 2014
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Piotr: I don't want really to enter the "cause" debate here, for various reasons. But I would like to make a comment about QM and its probabilistic results. First of all, the main bulk of QM is strictly deterministic. The wave function evolves in a strictly deterministic way, and indeed QM is the most precise theory ever developed in physics. Obviously, there is the probabilistic aspects: the wave function itself can be interpreted as referring to the probability of some results, in particular conditions where, for reasons that are not yet really clear and which are the object of great debate, some very special event takes place, what is sometimes called the wave function collapse. Now, in some interpretations of QM (but not all), that collapse is expression of some intrinsic probability, which is different from the probabilistic approach we use to describe non quantum phenomena, where probability is only a way to describe a deterministic system whose variables are too complex to allow a detailed description. Quantum probability could be the expression of an intrinsic property of the world at quantum level. Now, certainly I don't pretend to understand QM. That would be silly. But I propose a couple of comments, on which I would appreciate your thoughts: 1) Even if quantum events, at the wave function collapse level, are intrinsically probabilistic (which in principle I believe), that does not mean that they don't obey a law. A probabilistic distribution is still a law, and has a very definite mathematical form. Again, I will not enter here the philosophical debate about "cause", but it seems to me that a system of events which strictly obeys a mathematical law is still very much constrained, although in a different way, and is still very much subject to understanding by reason (being mathematics the product of our reason). 2) That said, the fact remains that QM is still a field in constant evolution (non darwinian, I hope :) ), and that nobody in the world can probably suggest that everything is "finished" about its meaning and interpretation. Just for reference and possible discussion, I paste here some thoughts from Wikipedia, with the explicit statement that I can understand almost nothing of what I am quoting :) : From "Wave function collapse":
In quantum mechanics, wave function collapse is the phenomenon in which a wave function—initially in a superposition of several eigenstates—appears to reduce to a single eigenstate after interaction with a measuring apparatus.[1] It is the essence of measurement in quantum mechanics, and connects the wave function with classical observables like position and momentum. Collapse is one of two processes by which quantum systems evolve in time; the other is continuous evolution via the Schrödinger equation.[2] However in this role, collapse is merely a black box for thermodynamically irreversible interaction with a classical environment.[3] Calculations of quantum decoherence predict apparent wave function collapse when a superposition forms between the quantum system's states and the environment's states. Significantly, the combined wave function of the system and environment continue to obey the Schrödinger equation.[4] When the Copenhagen interpretation was first expressed, Niels Bohr postulated wave function collapse to cut the quantum world from the classical.[5] This tactical move allowed quantum theory to develop without distractions from interpretational worries. Nevertheless it was debated, for if collapse were a fundamental physical phenomenon, rather than just the epiphenomenon of some other process, it would mean nature was fundamentally stochastic, i.e. nondeterministic, an undesirable property for a theory.[3][6] This issue remained until quantum decoherence entered mainstream opinion after its reformulation in the 1980s.[3][4][7] Decoherence explains the perception of wave function collapse in terms of interacting large- and small-scale quantum systems, and is commonly taught at the graduate level (e.g. the Cohen-Tannoudji textbook).[8] The quantum filtering approach[9][10][11] and the introduction of quantum causality non-demolition principle[12] allows for a classical-environment derivation of wave function collapse from the stochastic Schrödinger equation.
From "Quantum decoherence":
In quantum mechanics, quantum decoherence is the loss of coherence or ordering of the phase angles between the components of a system in a quantum superposition. One consequence of this dephasing is classical or probabilistically additive behavior. Quantum decoherence gives the appearance of wave function collapse (the reduction of the physical possibilities into a single possibility as seen by an observer) and justifies the framework and intuition of classical physics as an acceptable approximation: decoherence is the mechanism by which the classical limit emerges from a quantum starting point and it determines the location of the quantum-classical boundary. Decoherence occurs when a system interacts with its environment in a thermodynamically irreversible way. This prevents different elements in the quantum superposition of the total system's wavefunction from interfering with each other. Decoherence has been a subject of active research since the 1980s.[1] Decoherence can be viewed as the loss of information from a system into the environment (often modeled as a heat bath),[2] since every system is loosely coupled with the energetic state of its surroundings. Viewed in isolation, the system's dynamics are non-unitary (although the combined system plus environment evolves in a unitary fashion).[3] Thus the dynamics of the system alone are irreversible. As with any coupling, entanglements are generated between the system and environment. These have the effect of sharing quantum information with—or transferring it to—the surroundings. Decoherence does not generate actual wave function collapse. It only provides an explanation for the observation of wave function collapse, as the quantum nature of the system "leaks" into the environment. That is, components of the wavefunction are decoupled from a coherent system, and acquire phases from their immediate surroundings. A total superposition of the global or universal wavefunction still exists (and remains coherent at the global level), but its ultimate fate remains an interpretational issue. Specifically, decoherence does not attempt to explain the measurement problem. Rather, decoherence provides an explanation for the transition of the system to a mixture of states that seem to correspond to those states observers perceive. Moreover, our observation tells us that this mixture looks like a proper quantum ensemble in a measurement situation, as we observe that measurements lead to the "realization" of precisely one state in the "ensemble". Decoherence represents a challenge for the practical realization of quantum computers, since such machines are expected to rely heavily on the undisturbed evolution of quantum coherences. Simply put, they require that coherent states be preserved and that decoherence is managed, in order to actually perform quantum computation.
Just as a curiosity: I noticed a couple of references to "information" in the last quote. Whatever they mean! :)gpuccio
July 6, 2014
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Let's try that link again: The Particle AdventureMapou
July 6, 2014
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Piotr, first off, statistics is just observation and causes nothing. If you don't know why particle decay is probabilistic, then it's obvious that you are prevaricating. We certainly are not going to let you tell us that it is caused by nothing. Your opinion is disqualified by virtue of your ignorance. Second, there are known forces (weak, electromagnetic, strong) at work within a particle. If the forces are not balanced (an unbalanced force is a violation of simple Newtonian conservation principle), the result is decay. IOW, decay can be caused by any interaction involving one of the three forces mentioned. Source: The Particle Adventure. To claim that particle decay is not caused is the result of either stupidity or an intransigent world view (meaning, you got religion). All phenomena are caused.Mapou
July 6, 2014
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This is not even wrong. First of all, a pion does not decay exactly at 28 nanoseconds. This is just the average half-life of the pion.
No, the average lifetime of a pion (which, for your information, is not the same as its half-life) is 26 nanosecods. In my example, a pion decays at 28 ns, a little later than the mean value. But the decay could happen at 19 ns, 25 ns, or even 100 ns (less likely, but not impossible). My point is that there is no external cause for any particular timing of the decay; no answer to the question, "Why at 28 ns (rather than some other time)"? We can answer questions like, "Why is the decay time of pions more often within the range of 20-30 ns than within 30-50 ns"? This, however, has nothing to do with cause and effect. It's a question about large-number statistics, not the behaviour of individual particles.
Second, every effect in nature is the result of a violation of a conservation principle. A pion decays because it is unstable. It is unstable because the energies and quantum properties at play within the pion are violating some conservation principle.
This is not even wrong. The "exact" conservation laws (such as the conservation of mass/energy) are not violated by any known physical phenomena.Piotr
July 6, 2014
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Piotr
As for the universe, I don’t know. We have no theory of the origin of universes yet.
OK. that's clear. You cannot, without a theory of origins, rule out the prospect that the universe and everything in it popped into existence without a cause or reason. Finally, I have my answer. Thank you.StephenB
July 6, 2014
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'As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.' How could anyone contest his inference there, Piotr? And to put the regularity of the quantum world's behaviour all down to chance - for all the subatomic particles in the universe - never mind, one - is surely an insanely tall order.Axel
July 6, 2014
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Piotr @225:
As for quantum events (like a pion decaying after 28 nanoseconds rather than 19 or 25), quantum mechanics is quite clear about there being no cause, as opposed to an unknown cause.
This is not even wrong. First of all, a pion does not decay exactly at 28 nanoseconds. This is just the average half-life of the pion. Second, every effect in nature is the result of a violation of a conservation principle. A pion decays because it is unstable. It is unstable because the energies and quantum properties at play within the pion are violating some conservation principle. It bears repeating. A cause in physics is a violation of a conservation principle. An effect is a correction of a violation. Let me add that I believe that one should take every pronouncement coming from the physics/cosmology community with a grain of salt. They know much less about the universe than they make believe. Ask any of them why particle decay is probabilistic or why two bodies in relative inertial motion remain in motion and you'll come face to face with abject ignorance and cluelessness.Mapou
July 6, 2014
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'These are only Planck’s personal opinions, reflecting his metaphysical preferences. They are not statements about physics.' Piotr, his metaphysical opinions were vindicated in his eyes by his science. And it should be borne in mind that the development of his metaphysical assumptions proved to be impeccable by the paramount scientific paradigm that ensued from them.Axel
July 6, 2014
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Not touting for a response, Mark, but I want to apologise for my needless quasi rancour in a personally-addressed post.Axel
July 6, 2014
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SB:Can an organism, a universe, a horse, or a brick wall appear from out of nowhere–without cause or reason? If not, why not? Either you allow for such a possibility or you don’t. You cannot have it both ways. Piotr
First of all, there is no formal definition of “cause” in the physical sciences.
I didn't ask you a scientific question. Science is not in the business of defining causality. I asked you a common sense philosophical question.
As for quantum events (like a pion decaying after 28 nanoseconds rather than 19 or 25), quantum mechanics is quite clear about there being no cause, as opposed to an unknown cause.
So, when I ask you if a horse can appear in your living room without a cause or reason, you don't know what the word "cause" or "reason" means, but when you claim that quantum events can occur uncaused, you suddenly discover what the word "cause" means. That's a neat trick.;
A massive objest can’t appear out of nowhere, at least not according to our current understanding of physics.
You mean you need the latest findings in physics to discern whether or not a horse can appear in your living room without a cause?
It’s prohibited by the empirically established laws of physics, not because of the law of causality, or the law of identity, or any other antiquarian aprioristic commandment telling the universe how it should behave.
You are begging the question and also avoiding the question. Can the laws of physics themselves appear without a cause or reason? Also, can those empirically-established laws of physics that you allude to be superseded by an event that cannot be explained by them? That's the question. Physics cannot deal with such problems because all science depends on the prior self-evident rules of right reason, which you deny. Thus, you cannot bring reason to your analysis. In terms of irrational quantum mechanics being quite clear on the matter of acausality, you probably ought to read something from rational quantum theorists who disagree with that proposition.StephenB
July 6, 2014
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Piotr
As for quantum events (like a pion decaying after 28 nanoseconds rather than 19 or 25), quantum mechanics is quite clear about there being no cause, as opposed to an unknown cause.
This is just metaphysics (beyond physical) disguised as science. Vividvividbleau
July 6, 2014
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Axel @229, 230 These are only Planck's personal opinions, reflecting his metaphysical preferences. They are not statements about physics.Piotr
July 6, 2014
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Not a lot of scope for materialism.Axel
July 6, 2014
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The uncertainty principle permitting a quantum fluctuation was presumably what led Planck to state: 'Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve;' and 'I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness.'Axel
July 6, 2014
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Mark
I think your argument is assailable (Reason's rules always take logical precedence over the facts in evidence)– I just don’t want to take on that rather complicated task at the same time as discussing the law of causality.
Evidence does not inform reason's rules; reason's rules inform evidence. The process cannot be reversed. There is nothing complicated or abstruse about that proposition. The reason that I characterized it as an unassailable argument is because it is an unassailable argument. Why you refuse to concede it or even deal with it is a mystery. Or, maybe it isn't such a mystery after all (another example of bending truth to desire?)StephenB
July 6, 2014
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'I don’t know for certain but it is not raw faith. As I understand it, quantum physicists have been unable to identify anything that could be the cause of some quantum events and the best model they can produce is that these events have no cause.' On the contrary, Mark. The problem lies in the failure of you atheists to admit to yourselves that non-locality necessarily entails a world you neither know nor can know anything about, other than its quantum incursions in our space-time universe. So, what do you do? Why, you always revert to your, 'Well, now, ifn Oi wuz a goin' to Whimpering Chutney, Oi'd not leave from here, d'yer see?' In other words, you'd prefer to leave from a spatio-temporal 'nowhere' locality, which is apparently the only place conceived by the human imagination, where one can witness nothing turn itself into everything. Or if not witness it, rationally(!) infer it!! And simply because you refuse to take on board the reality of non-locality, a reference-frame outside space-time.Axel
July 6, 2014
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gpuccio, Check this interesting research 'Made in Italy'!
We are interested in the molecular mechanisms governing asymmetric stem cell divisions, with emphasis on the role of the mitotic spindle orientation in determining daughter cells’ fate. The proper execution of asymmetric divisions is crucial in generating tissue diversity during development, as well as for tissue homeostasis and regeneration in adult organisms. An increasing body of literature supports the notion that certain human cancers arise from abnormalities in adult stem cells asymmetric divisions, able to alter cell fate and leading to over-proliferation (the so called cancer stem cell hypothesis). Indeed failures in asymmetric divisions occur when pathways controlling the position of the cytokinesis plane are compromised. They cause incorrect fate specification and abnormal proliferation during mammalian neurogenesis and skin development, and correlated with cancer progression. To make a cell division asymmetric, the position of the mitotic spindle has to be tightly coordinated to the cortical polarity, so that daughter cells will be properly positioned within the tissue, inherit unequal sets of fate determinants and follow differential fates. This observation sets the stage for our studies, aimed at gaining insight into the structural and functional organization of the molecular machines responsible for spindle coupling to polarity cues during stem cells asymmetric divisions. To address this biological problem, we use a combination of high-resolution X-ray crystallography, biochemical analyses on reconstituted protein complexes and stem cell biology. Using the detailed molecular information delivered by our structural studies, we formulate precise models of how intrinsic properties of individual protein relate to the behavior of the mitotic spindle during asymmetric cell divisions, that we challenge in living cells. An emerging concept in the cancer field is that cancer stem cells may be responsible for relapse and resistance to anticancer therapies. In this view, a clear molecular description of processes underlying asymmetric cell divisions will be instrumental in identifying new stem-cell specific drug targets for therapeutic intervention. https://www.ieo.it/it/RESEARCH/Basic-research/Department-of-Experimental-Oncology11/Molecular-basis-of-asymmetric-cell-division-Unit/
Dionisio
July 6, 2014
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StephenB
Can an organism, a universe, a horse, or a brick wall appear from out of nowhere–without cause or reason? If not, why not? Either you allow for such a possibility or you don’t. You cannot have it both ways.
First of all, there is no formal definition of "cause" in the physical sciences. Causality is typically distributed: lots of events in the past (or, to be more precise, in the past light cone) may contribute to the occurrence of X, so which of them is the cause? What causes a thuderstorm, or a rainfall, or the death of an old man who dies "of natural causes"? The relationships which we call "causal" form a complex network, not a chain. We can identify the major contributing factors and call them "causes", but in doing so we ignore countless minor factors (since we can't even hope to be able to identify them). That's ore of the reasons why the accuracy of weather forecasts is what it is. A massive objest can't appear out of nowhere, at least not according to our current understanding of physics. Laws of conservation are part of that understanding. They prohibit the spontaneous creation of things unless it happens in such a way that those laws are not violated. Thus, zero-point quantum fluctuations, creating virtual particles, are allowed, but the spontaneous creation of a horse or a brick is physically impossible. It's prohibited by the empirically established laws of physics, not because of the law of causality, or the law of identity, or any other antiquarian aprioristic commandment telling the universe how it should behave. As for quantum events (like a pion decaying after 28 nanoseconds rather than 19 or 25), quantum mechanics is quite clear about there being no cause, as opposed to an unknown cause. Hidden variables at best fall foul of Ockham's Razor (I mean non-local hidden variables; local ones are already ruled out by experiments). They don't increase the predictive or explanatory power of the theory; they only introduce unnecessary complications. As for the universe, I don't know. We have no theory of the origin of universes yet.Piotr
July 6, 2014
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SB: How can you know that you have discovered the cause of an event if, in principle, that same event could have occurred without a cause?
Why not? Just as I might discover a planet has a moon although in principle it might not.
Whether or not a planet has a moon is not even remotely pertinent to the question. Never mind the unrelated problem of how one could discover a moon that doesn't exist.StephenB
July 6, 2014
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Piotr
If you have an unstable elementary particle, there are only so many ways in which it can decay, but you can’t predict which type of decay will occur (although you know their probabilities), and you can’t predict when exactly the decay will happen (although you know the mean lifetime).
What does that have to do with the claim that the event occurred without a cause or in the absence of causal conditions?StephenB
July 6, 2014
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Mark
I don’t know for certain but it is not raw faith. As I understand it, quantum physicists have been unable to identify anything that could be the cause of some quantum events and the best model they can produce is that these events have no cause.
As a logician, you should know that the statement "there is no cause" does not follow from the statement "we have not found the cause." Thus, when you say that quantum events occur uncaused, you are making a faith-based statement that is not, nor can it be, grounded in empirical evidence.StephenB
July 6, 2014
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