Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

From David DeWitt at Liberty U: Contemplating Bill Nye’s 51 skulls slide

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

David A. DeWitt, Biology & Chemistry chair at Liberty, knows a thing or two about skulls, and writes to say,

This afternoon and evening I tracked down 46 of the 51 skulls that were on the slide Nye showed in the Ken Ham debate (at about 1:05 on the Youtube video).

This was a challenge because some of them are not very well analyzed, partial skulls, etc. While some of them are well known, others are rarely discussed. I believe only a well-trained anthropologist would have been able to address that slide in the very brief time that it was visible. It was especially confusing because the skulls are in different orientations (including one that is viewed from the bottom and one that is just a jaw). They were not shown with the same scale so the relative sizes are wrong, and they are not grouped or lined up in any clear order. They are mixed up by type of skull and by date, and the only label is the name of the individual skull. I suspect that this was deliberate. I am also curious whether Nye knows very much about those skulls at all, and this may be why he didn’t say which ones were humans or how many were represented on the slide.

Some of the comments Bill Nye made: 

“I assure you not any of them is a gorilla.”

That is actually true. There is no gorilla skull on the page.

He said the fossils were found “all over the place.” That is true if you mean in a variety of locations. It is not true if you mean that they are common.

===============================================

They are mixed up by type of skull and by date, and the only label is the name of the individual skull. I suspect that this was deliberate.

===============================================

He asked where would you put modern humans/us. The technical definition of modern human would be Cro-magnon which is the last one, but you should probably include the whole bottom row and the last 2 in the row above it since these are all homo sapien. Some of those homo sapiens are called ‘archaic’ because of their age and that is the distinction to ‘modern human.’

There are issues with Dali however because it is difficult to say whether it is homo sapien or homo erectus. However, if we accept the recent analysis (by Lorkipanidze et al) of the Dmanisi skull variation, then we would start humans with the last one on the top row which is H. habilis. Personally, I would not do that, I would start 2 in from the second row because I think the 1470 skull H rudolfensis has reconstruction issues and I would classify this with K. platyops which is not on the chart.

Bill insisted that there were more than 2 kinds represented on the chart, and perhaps he is right. It may be 3, but that depends on whether you include the australopithecines with paranthropus or not. It would be a max of 4 if rudolfensis is a distinct kind from the other two apes. I conclude that most of the skulls are in fact human, and there are likely up to 3 different kinds of extinct apes depending on how those are grouped. The Smithsonian website shows the Australopithcus group as distinct from the Paranthropus group, which is probably reasonable especially since they show both of them and not being direct human ancestors. I was surprised that Nye’s slide did not show the more recent fossils from the last few years such as ardipithecus, Australopithecus sediba, and Sahelanthropus.

===============================================

I am also curious whether Nye knows very much about those skulls at all, and this may be why he didn’t say which ones were humans or how many were represented on the slide.

===============================================

It is important to remember that some of these fossils are of extinct types of apes that were different from chimps and gorillas. Due to variation within the type as well as sexual dimorphism (along with partial and fragmented skulls) it can be challenging to distinguish the fossil apes.

The entire first row is messed up because it is:

Australopithecus afarensis (~3 million)

Paranthropus aethioopicus (~2.5 million)

3 Pranthropus Boisei (1.8-1.7 million)

2 Australopithecus Africanus (2.5-2.1 million and then 2.8-2.4 million)

Homo habilis 1.7 million

Overall there is a general trend to the fossils shown, but there are Neanderthals, H. heidelbergensis and H. erectus skulls that are out of order and out of a time sequence. I can only conclude that the sole purpose of showing such a slide was to confuse and obfuscate, not educate.

Oh, not to worry, when Darwin’s followers run the world, confusion and obfuscation will be education, and there will be no one left who knows the difference.

Heck, the other night we noted a science writer reviewing books in a prominent publication who  thinks there is little or no difference between humans and other animals. If you can get published saying things that are as clearly un-evidence-based  as that, you needn’t bother confusing people.

The multiversers are right: Science doesn’t have to make sense any more. It just has to support the right causes.

See also: Science-Fictions-square.gif The Science Fictions series at your fingertips

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
Are you saying there wouldn’t be any mammal-like reprtiles and reptile-like mammals? No transitional forms? Or perhaps you are just confused and don’t know what you are talking about. CLAVDIVS:
I am saying that blending inheritance and particulate inheritance are different concepts with different predicted observable consequences.
Non-sequitur. And Mendel was a Creationist so he did NOT posit universal common descent.Joe
February 12, 2014
February
02
Feb
12
12
2014
04:11 AM
4
04
11
AM
PDT
CLVDIVS:
Under Darwin’s and Mendel’s model, smooth blending of characters that overlap lineages is not predicted.
Reference please. Transitional forms seem to refute you so you need to reference your claim (and I know that you can't).Joe
February 12, 2014
February
02
Feb
12
12
2014
04:05 AM
4
04
05
AM
PDT
sixthbook: You are perfectly correct. The concept of convergent evolution is completely unwarranted, and it is supported by no independent facts, except those for which it was invented, those facts which do not support the conventional evolutionary theory. So, while the classical concept of neo darwinian evolution is wrong but potentially scientific (in the sense of falsifiable), the concept of convergent evolution has the only purpose of denying some of its falsifications. It is a concept that has no scientific status at all, because there is no independent evidence or logical reason at all that a neo darwinian mechanism can generate convergent evolution (even if we admit for the sake of discussion that it can generate evolution at all, which is obviously not true).gpuccio
February 12, 2014
February
02
Feb
12
12
2014
12:29 AM
12
12
29
AM
PDT
If something isn't within plausible recent common ancestor evolution it's within plausible convergent evolution! It's convenient how well this type of thinking works for keeping an idealogy from being falsified.sixthbook
February 11, 2014
February
02
Feb
11
11
2014
08:30 PM
8
08
30
PM
PDT
Joe @ 27
Darwin’s model would be OK if life didn’t get any further than prokaryotes.
Under Darwin's and Mendel's model, smooth blending of characters that overlap lineages is not predicted. What part of this don't you agree with?CLAVDIVS
February 11, 2014
February
02
Feb
11
11
2014
06:05 PM
6
06
05
PM
PDT
CLAVDIVS, Darwin's model would be OK if life didn't get any further than prokaryotes.Joe
February 11, 2014
February
02
Feb
11
11
2014
03:52 PM
3
03
52
PM
PDT
Lenoxus- A Summary of the Principles of Hierarchy Theory
The Hierarchy theory is a dialect of general systems theory. It has emerged as part of a movement toward a general science of complexity. Rooted in the work of economist, Herbert Simon, chemist, Ilya Prigogine, and psychologist, Jean Piaget, hierarchy theory focuses upon levels of organization and issues of scale. There is significant emphasis upon the observer in the system. Hierarchies occur in social systems, biological structures, and in the biological taxonomies. Since scholars and laypersons use hierarchy and hierarchical concepts commonly, it would seem reasonable to have a theory of hierarchies. Hierarchy theory uses a relatively small set of principles to keep track of the complex structure and a behavior of systems with multiple levels. A set of definitions and principles follows immediately: Hierarchy: in mathematical terms, it is a partially ordered set. In less austere terms, a hierarchy is a collection of parts with ordered asymmetric relationships inside a whole. That is to say, upper levels are above lower levels, and the relationship upwards is asymmetric with the relationships downwards. Hierarchical levels: levels are populated by entities whose properties characterize the level in question. A given entity may belong to any number of levels, depending on the criteria used to link levels above and below. For example, an individual human being may be a member of the level i) human, ii) primate, iii) organism or iv) host of a parasite, depending on the relationship of the level in question to those above and below. Level of organization: this type of level fits into its hierarchy by virtue of set of definitions that lock the level in question to those above and below. For example, a biological population level is an aggregate of entities from the organism level of organization, but it is only so by definition. There is no particular scale involved in the population level of organization, in that some organisms are larger than some populations, as in the case of skin parasites. Level of observation: this type of level fits into its hierarchy by virtue of relative scaling considerations. For example, the host of a skin parasite represents the context for the population of parasites; it is a landscape, even though the host may be seen as belonging to a level of organization, organism, that is lower than the collection of parasites, a population. The criterion for observation: when a system is observed, there are two separate considerations. One is the spatiotemporal scale at which the observations are made. The other is the criterion for observation, which defines the system in the foreground away from all the rest in the background. The criterion for observation uses the types of parts and their relationships to each other to characterize the system in the foreground. If criteria for observation are linked together in an asymmetric fashion, then the criteria lead to levels of organization. Otherwise, criteria for observation merely generate isolated classes. The ordering of levels: there are several criteria whereby other levels reside above lower levels. These criteria often run in parallel, but sometimes only one or a few of them apply. Upper levels are above lower levels by virtue of: 1) being the context of, 2) offering constraint to, 3) behaving more slowly at a lower frequency than, 4) being populated by entities with greater integrity and higher bond strength than, and 5), containing and being made of - lower levels. Nested and non-nested hierarchies: nested hierarchies involve levels which consist of, and contain, lower levels. Non-nested hierarchies are more general in that the requirement of containment of lower levels is relaxed. For example, an army consists of a collection of soldiers and is made up of them. Thus an army is a nested hierarchy. On the other hand, the general at the top of a military command does not consist of his soldiers and so the military command is a non-nested hierarchy with regard to the soldiers in the army. Pecking orders and a food chains are also non-nested hierarchies.
Did you catch that last part? And yes that is me getting insulted. And yet I am the one who supported my claims with actual references and Andy ended up agreeing with me, yet still sed I was wrong. Nested hierarchies are manmade constructs. The main criteria is summativity. With evolution defining characteristics can be lost, gained or they can stay the same. Dr. Denton goes over this in "Evolution: A Theoy in Crisis". Transitional forms, by their very nature, violate objective nested hierarchies. However they do not violate non-nested hierarchies. But a nested hierarchy is a specific case and it has specific criteria that must be met.Joe
February 11, 2014
February
02
Feb
11
11
2014
03:49 PM
3
03
49
PM
PDT
Oh, I just noticed I'm also conversing with you on Cornelius Hunter's blog (I think?), about Linnaeus. Heh. Nothing wrong with multiple conversations of course.Lenoxus
February 11, 2014
February
02
Feb
11
11
2014
03:24 PM
3
03
24
PM
PDT
Joe:
The US Army forms a nested hierarchy. And guess what? The Army didn’t originate via descent with modification of the original troops.
The Army is a hierarchy, and "nested" in the sense that each member reports to only one commanding officer, who oversees multiple soldiers. But it's not a nested hierarchy in a cladistic sense whereby the relationships are not just of "subservience", but identity. Privates are not a subset of captains in the way that primates are a subset of mammals, all of whome. If a private insisted on being called a captain and a corporal and a general, he'd be wrong, but a human is not wrong to consider herself an australopithecine, an ape by extension, a simian by extension of that, and so on, all the way to "a living thing." Better examples than the Army would have been classic ID examples: cell phones and cars can, if you wish, be organized into a nested hierarchy, where the relationships are a matter of identity. The big difference beteween those designed things and life is that any such hierarchy will be arbitrary; nearly all cars gain the same features (such as air bags) at the same time, and generally borrow features from one another much more freely than evolution allows, so you can choose different . Evolution, meanwhile, has an objective hierarchy -- features that one wouldn't expect to correlate (if not they weren't the result of descent) consistently do. But I believe you've heard all this before, because I'm pretty sure you're the Joe G who is repeatedly insulted in this blog post. Seqenenre:
Me, my mother, her mother, het mother etc 110 million times. Each and every mother and daughter are of the same species. Yet number 50 million and 49.999.999 certainly are not human. I find this puzzling.
Eubulides of Miletus wondered exactly how many grains of sand should be removed from a heap of 1,000,000 grains before it was no longer a heap. One might also wonder about the cutoff, in number of pennies of net worth, between rich and not-rich (you can only be one or the other, right?), or the number of minutes between old and not-old. After all, surely two people who are apart in wealth by a single penny and apart in age by a single minute are of the same class (poor, middle, rich, or whatever in-between gradation you care to name) and the same age-group (young, old, etc), right? The answer to all these is that we humans label continuous phenomena (wealth, age, evolutionary change, etc) for convenience, and sometimes for our laws (such as tax codes and citizenship rights). But reality doesn't go out of its way to correspond to our labels. Don't go crazy thinking about something like "the birth of the first human"; just recognize that species essentialism (alongside many other essentialisms) is incorrect. The change is continuous, and each mother and daughter indeed look as alike as to be expected. The phenomenon of "A is the same species as B, which is C, which is D, which is E, which is not A" is observed mong entirely-extant species. This phenomenon is called "ring species" and the most famous example is seagulls.Lenoxus
February 11, 2014
February
02
Feb
11
11
2014
02:56 PM
2
02
56
PM
PDT
Joe @ 16
JOE: Also with gradual evolution we would expect to see a smooth blending of characteristics which causes overlapping. CLAVDIVS: Not with particulate inheritance, as Mendel discovered. JOE: Are you saying there wouldn’t be any mammal-like reprtiles and reptile-like mammals? No transitional forms? Or perhaps you are just confused and don’t know what you are talking about.
I am saying that blending inheritance and particulate inheritance are different concepts with different predicted observable consequences. Gregor Mendel discredited blending inheritance in favour of particulate inheritance in Versuche über Pflanzen-Hybriden in 1865. So this is not a new idea. Also, with gradual evolution under Darwin's and Mendel's models we would expect anagenesis (transitions along a single lineage) and cladogenesis (splitting of lineages) neither of which predict overlapping of characters across separate lineages.CLAVDIVS
February 11, 2014
February
02
Feb
11
11
2014
12:40 PM
12
12
40
PM
PDT
Me, my mother, her mother, het mother etc 110 million times. Each and every mother and daughter are of the same species. Yet number 50 million and 49.999.999 certainly are not human. I find this puzzling.Seqenenre
February 11, 2014
February
02
Feb
11
11
2014
10:03 AM
10
10
03
AM
PDT
A smooth transition with a blending of traits would produce overlapping of defined characteristics. Nested hierarchies do not allow for overlapping. But then again you don't seem to understand nested hierarchies. The US Army forms a nested hierarchy. And guess what? The Army didn't originate via descent with modification of the original troops. See Knox "The use of hierarchies as organizational models of systematics" Biological Journal of the Linnean Society (1998), 63:1-49Joe
February 11, 2014
February
02
Feb
11
11
2014
07:54 AM
7
07
54
AM
PDT
Joe: CLAVDIVS was thinking you had a problem with the apparent discontinuities of certain traits. For example, one blond-haired parent and one black-haired parent will have a black-haired child. This isn't a problem for evolution. Of course being "mammal-like" isn't an allele but the result of many alleles. And unsurprisingly, we see an extremely well-attested fossil record of reptile-to-mammal intermediates. You are under the impression that smooth transition (if it existed, which you think it doesn't) somehow contradicts nested hierarchy, so evolutionists should pick one or the other, not both. (And to you, the nested hierarchy is the true one, and only as a consequence of the human imposition of taxonomy on the biosphere.) I don't think I grasp how that works. Smooth transitions can make precise classification difficult for closely related groups (example: creationist disagreement over which fossils are "fully human" or "fully ape"!), but that doesn't make parentage (in a general sense) ambiguous. It's a matter of paleontological debate whether Archaeopteryx is "truly" a bird, or a dinosaur, or a dinobird, but that doesn't mean it just might be a mammal or an insect because the blending of traits between various groups is so smooth. The smoothness goes from parent to child; over the separation of millions of generations (either by descent, as between ourselves and the fishapods, or by cousinhood, as between ourselves and sharks), the differences can be quite stark. The parentage of Archaeopteryx is obviously therapod dinosaur, and that's where is put in the nested hierarchy.Lenoxus
February 11, 2014
February
02
Feb
11
11
2014
07:44 AM
7
07
44
AM
PDT
CLAVDIVS- Are you saying there wouldn't be any mammal-like reprtiles and reptile-like mammals? No transitional forms? Or perhaps you are just confused and don't know what you are talking about.Joe
February 11, 2014
February
02
Feb
11
11
2014
04:47 AM
4
04
47
AM
PDT
Joe @ 17
Also with gradual evolution we would expect to see a smooth blending of characteristics which causes overlapping.
Not with particulate inheritance, as Mendel discovered.CLAVDIVS
February 11, 2014
February
02
Feb
11
11
2014
04:36 AM
4
04
36
AM
PDT
Nested hierarchies again! Geez- Evos cannot grasp the fact that nested hierarchies are purely manmade constructs. Nature does not create them- only we do. And we do so because it helps us organize things. Also with gradual evolution we would expect to see a smooth blending of characteristics which causes overlapping. That is fine for a Venn diagram but against the rules of a nested hierarchy.Joe
February 11, 2014
February
02
Feb
11
11
2014
04:24 AM
4
04
24
AM
PDT
Here is a YEC answer. lets try it with a collection of LIVERS. Those things in all of us. If one had livers from some thirty animals could one tell which is the human one? No. its a liver. they all look the same. its a option that a creator, as in physics, would make a common blueprint for livers and everyone get the same. yet its not logically demanding it shows common descent. Likeness in livers or skulls is not scientific evidence for common descent. its JUST lines of reasoning based on a presumption. We look like apes because we were given the best body on earth while remaining within a common blueprint spectrum for nature.Robert Byers
February 10, 2014
February
02
Feb
10
10
2014
09:07 PM
9
09
07
PM
PDT
Nye has said that if we could find “just one” fossil that was out of place that we could change the world. Paleontologist Jerry MacDonald has found a number of fossilized tracks that do not conform to accepted evolutionary theory.mjazzguitar
February 10, 2014
February
02
Feb
10
10
2014
08:04 PM
8
08
04
PM
PDT
JoeCoder, well I don't know if it is fair to say I am advancing any particular position so much as to say that I am showing the Darwinist's position to be severely lacking in robustness as to its claim for gradualness. As to my personal position, I think the fossil record is extremely poor to build any case upon by itself, but given what we can make out from the fossil record (abruptness and overall stasis), coupled with information theory, distinct developmental Gene Regulatory Networks for humans, a large percentage of newly discovered ORFan genes in humans, and the observational data we have in hand from genetics that shows Darwinian processes to continually reduce functional information, and never create it, then I think all the evidence, taken together, builds a very solid case that modern humans, more genetically fit than humans of today, were created sometime in the not too distant past. If I were forced to guess when, given the extremely poor state of the fossil evidence, I would not venture any more than very rough ballpark figure of anywhere from 30,000 to 200,000 years ago. The evidence, as far as I can tell, simply does not allow one to nail it down any closer than that. And I have heard good arguments for both the younger and older dates. That is why I much prefer the direct empirical evidence we have in hand that show Darwinian processes to be grossly inadequate as to the claims atheists make for it.bornagain77
February 10, 2014
February
02
Feb
10
10
2014
08:00 PM
8
08
00
PM
PDT
@BA77: Several of your sources cast doubt that sapiens and neanderthals/erectus didn't share a common ancestor while several others say the opposite. Which position are you advancing?JoeCoder
February 10, 2014
February
02
Feb
10
10
2014
06:55 PM
6
06
55
PM
PDT
Great post by News and BA77(as usual) exposing the truth(or lack thereof)behind Darwinism. :)Chalciss
February 10, 2014
February
02
Feb
10
10
2014
05:07 PM
5
05
07
PM
PDT
correction "Whatever Darwinists are doing, WITHOUT any empirical basis, what they are doing is certainly NOT science!bornagain77
February 10, 2014
February
02
Feb
10
10
2014
04:53 PM
4
04
53
PM
PDT
Moreover, why do Darwinists get a free pass on ever experimentally demonstrating that Darwinism is remotely feasible?
Scant search for the Maker Excerpt: But where is the experimental evidence? None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another. Bacteria, the simplest form of independent life, are ideal for this kind of study, with generation times of 20 to 30 minutes, and populations achieved after 18 hours. But throughout 150 years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another, in spite of the fact that populations have been exposed to potent chemical and physical mutagens and that, uniquely, bacteria possess extrachromosomal, transmissible plasmids. Since there is no evidence for species changes between the simplest forms of unicellular life, it is not surprising that there is no evidence for evolution from prokaryotic to eukaryotic cells, let alone throughout the whole array of higher multicellular organisms. - Alan H. Linton - emeritus professor of bacteriology, University of Bristol. http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=159282
All the while, despite such poverty of evidence, Darwinists claim that generating the human brain by unguided processes is beyond all doubt:
Human brain has more switches than all computers on Earth - November 2010 Excerpt: They found that the brain's complexity is beyond anything they'd imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study: ...One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor--with both memory-storage and information-processing elements--than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20023112-247.html
Whatever Darwinists are doing, what any empirical basis, what they are doing is certainly NOT science!
Mind and Cosmos - Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False - Thomas Nagel Excerpt: If materialism cannot accommodate consciousness and other mind-related aspects of reality, then we must abandon a purely materialist understanding of nature in general, extending to biology, evolutionary theory, and cosmology. Since minds are features of biological systems that have developed through evolution, the standard materialist version of evolutionary biology is fundamentally incomplete. And the cosmological history that led to the origin of life and the coming into existence of the conditions for evolution cannot be a merely materialist history. http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199919758.do "I have argued patiently against the prevailing form of naturalism, a reductive materialism that purports to capture life and mind through its neo-Darwinian extension." "..., I find this view antecedently unbelievable---a heroic triumph of ideological theory over common sense". Thomas Nagel - "Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False" - pg.128
Verse and Music:
Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. Alter Bridge – Rise Today http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYG3BPvFOgs
bornagain77
February 10, 2014
February
02
Feb
10
10
2014
04:52 PM
4
04
52
PM
PDT
A few notes:
Evolution of the Genus Homo - Annual Review of Earth and Planetary Sciences - Tattersall, Schwartz, May 2009 Excerpt: "Definition of the genus Homo is almost as fraught as the definition of Homo sapiens. We look at the evidence for “early Homo,” finding little morphological basis for extending our genus to any of the 2.5–1.6-myr-old fossil forms assigned to “early Homo” or Homo habilis/rudolfensis." http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.earth.031208.100202 "A number of hominid crania are known from sites in eastern and southern Africa in the 400- to 200-thousand-year range, but none of them looks like a close antecedent of the anatomically distinctive Homo sapiens…Even allowing for the poor record we have of our close extinct kin, Homo sapiens appears as distinctive and unprecedented…there is certainly no evidence to support the notion that we gradually became who we inherently are over an extended period, in either the physical or the intellectual sense." Dr. Ian Tattersall: - paleoanthropologist - emeritus curator of the American Museum of Natural History - (Masters of the Planet, 2012) Has Science Shown That We Evolved from Ape-like Creatures? by Casey Luskin - Fall 2013 (useful references at the end of the article) Excerpt: A closer look at the literature shows that hominin fossils generally fall into one of two categories—ape-like species or human-like species (of the genus Homo)—and that there is a large, unbridged gap between them. Despite the claims of many evolutionary paleoanthropologists, the fragmented hominin fossil record does not document the evolution of humans from ape-like precursors. In fact, scientists are quite sharply divided over who or what our human ancestors even were. Newly discovered fossils are often initially presented to the public with great enthusiasm and fanfare, but once cooler heads prevail, their status as human evolutionary ancestors is invariably called into question. - http://salvomag.com/new/articles/salvo26-science-faith/has-science-shown-that-we-evolved-from-ape-like-creatures.php
The gap in skull sizes is gone over at the 29:11 minute mark in the following video, in an extremely fair and even even-handed manner, by Dr. Geim.
Science and Human Origins--Objections (Part 3) 7-27-2013 by Paul Giem - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07eo83l_yMQ&list=UUaBAwmf0uZeTYejbXpXV7VQ
at the 32:44 minute mark of the preceding video, Dr. Geim states,
“You’ve got a pretty clear division point (for skull sizes)” Skull "Rewrites" Story of Human Evolution -- Again - Casey Luskin - October 22, 2013 Excerpt: "There is a big gap in the fossil record," Zollikofer told NBC News. "I would put a question mark there. Of course it would be nice to say this was the last common ancestor of Neanderthals and us, but we simply don't know." - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/10/skull_rewrites_078221.html Human/Ape Common Ancestry: Following the Evidence - Casey Luskin - June 2011 Excerpt: So the researchers constructed an evolutionary tree based on 129 skull and tooth measurements for living hominoids, including gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans and humans, and did the same with 62 measurements recorded on Old World monkeys, including baboons, mangabeys and macaques. They also drew upon published molecular phylogenies. At the outset, Wood and Collard assumed the molecular evidence was correct. “There were so many different lines of genetic evidence pointing in one direction,” Collard explains. But no matter how the computer analysis was run, the molecular and morphological trees could not be made to match15 (see figure, below). Collard says this casts grave doubt on the reliability of using morphological evidence to determine the fine details of evolutionary trees for higher primates. “It is saying it is positively misleading,” he says. The abstract of the pair’s paper stated provocatively that “existing phylogenetic hypotheses about human evolution are unlikely to be reliable”.[10] http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/following_the_evidence_where_i047161.html#comment-9266481 No Known Hominin Is Common Ancestor of Neanderthals and Modern Humans, Study Suggests - Oct. 21, 2013 Excerpt: The article, "No known hominin species matches the expected dental morphology of the last common ancestor of Neanderthals and modern humans," relies on fossils of approximately 1,200 molars and premolars from 13 species or types of hominins -- humans and human relatives and ancestors. Fossils from the well-known Atapuerca sites have a crucial role in this research, accounting for more than 15 percent of the complete studied fossil collection.,,, They conclude with high statistical confidence that none of the hominins usually proposed as a common ancestor, such as Homo heidelbergensis, H. erectus and H. antecessor, is a satisfactory match. "None of the species that have been previously suggested as the last common ancestor of Neanderthals and modern humans has a dental morphology that is fully compatible with the expected morphology of this ancestor," Gómez-Robles said. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131021153202.htm
Footnote to skull sizes:
If Modern Humans Are So Smart, Why Are Our Brains Shrinking? - January 20, 2011 Excerpt: John Hawks is in the middle of explaining his research on human evolution when he drops a bombshell. Running down a list of changes that have occurred in our skeleton and skull since the Stone Age, the University of Wisconsin anthropologist nonchalantly adds, “And it’s also clear the brain has been shrinking.” “Shrinking?” I ask. “I thought it was getting larger.” The whole ascent-of-man thing.,,, He rattles off some dismaying numbers: Over the past 20,000 years, the average volume of the human male brain has decreased from 1,500 cubic centimeters to 1,350 cc, losing a chunk the size of a tennis ball. The female brain has shrunk by about the same proportion. “I’d call that major downsizing in an evolutionary eyeblink,” he says. “This happened in China, Europe, Africa—everywhere we look.” http://discovermagazine.com/2010/sep/25-modern-humans-smart-why-brain-shrinking
Moreover genetic evidence has now shown 'Humans and Neanderthals Are One'
Humans and Neanderthals Are One - May 2010 Excerpt: In short, the evidence has brought humans and Neanderthals together as mere varieties of the same species, while simultaneously increasing the genetic distance between humans and the great apes. http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201005.htm#20100508a
Genetic Evidence has also now overturned the 99% genetic similarity myth:
Comprehensive Analysis of Chimpanzee and Human Chromosomes Reveals Average DNA Similarity of 70% - by Jeffrey P. Tomkins - February 20, 2013 Excerpt: For the chimp autosomes, the amount of optimally aligned DNA sequence provided similarities between 66 and 76%, depending on the chromosome. In general, the smaller and more gene-dense the chromosomes, the higher the DNA similarity—although there were several notable exceptions defying this trend. Only 69% of the chimpanzee X chromosome was similar to human and only 43% of the Y chromosome. Genome-wide, only 70% of the chimpanzee DNA was similar to human under the most optimal sequence-slice conditions. While, chimpanzees and humans share many localized protein-coding regions of high similarity, the overall extreme discontinuity between the two genomes defies evolutionary timescales and dogmatic presuppositions about a common ancestor. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v6/n1/human-chimp-chromosome
bornagain77
February 10, 2014
February
02
Feb
10
10
2014
04:51 PM
4
04
51
PM
PDT
Kinda puts a damper in the reliability of your mystical nested hierarchy doesn’t it?
No need to be condescending.JoeCoder
February 10, 2014
February
02
Feb
10
10
2014
04:14 PM
4
04
14
PM
PDT
Lenoxus:
But (among plenty of other traits) the teeth are totally different in number and function, and this is important; dental patterns are one of the characters that follows the nested hierarchy quite well, so you can’t pretend that they are scattered arbitrarily throughout the tree.
Actually similar teeth patterns in diverse lineages are frequently attributed to convergent evolution, so it's a bit hard to see how dentition (among other traits) "follows the nested hierarchy", when it's actually predicted to do the opposite. It is commonly believed that there are differences in the evolutionary lability of the crania, dentition, and postcrania of mammals, the latter two being more prone to homoplasy because of strong selective pressures for feeding and locomotion, respectively.... Differences in homoplasy within data sets with two or three kinds of data were not statistically significant. These findings suggest that dental, cranial, and postcranial characters can be equally prone to homoplasy and none should be automatically dismissed, disregarded, or systematically weighted in phylogenetic analyses. Levels of Homoplasy in the Evolution of the Mammalian Skeleton - Journal of Mammalian Evolution 1998 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1020549505177 Even the infamous complex mammalian middle ear-bones are said to have independently evolved twice. The separation of the middle ear bones from the mandible is considered a defining feature of all modern mammals. But did this event happen once in a primitive mammalian ancestor or independently in the monotreme lineage and therian (marsupial and placental) lineage? As Martin and Luo discuss in their Perspective, a new fossil-the dentary bone of an ancient toothed monotreme-suggests that the middle ear bones formed independently in these two mammalian lineages, providing a remarkable example of homoplastic evolution. Homoplasy in the Mammalian Ear Science 2005 http://www.sciencemag.org/content/307/5711/861 Kinda puts a damper in the reliability of your mystical nested hierarchy doesn't it?lifepsy
February 10, 2014
February
02
Feb
10
10
2014
03:30 PM
3
03
30
PM
PDT
And that should have been "thylacines have marsupial teeth" above.JoeCoder
February 10, 2014
February
02
Feb
10
10
2014
03:05 PM
3
03
05
PM
PDT
Off topic: Is there a way to edit a post on UD? My grammar is atrocious.JoeCoder
February 10, 2014
February
02
Feb
10
10
2014
03:04 PM
3
03
04
PM
PDT
That leaves one with simple incredulity that a marsupial could evolve to be so seemingly-canine in general form
I'm incredulous of evolution much beyond the genus level to begin with. :P Genome sequencing has shown that such evolution would have to be accompanied by a large number of new genes, with 10-30% of those genes showing no evolutionary history or homology to anything, as if they appeared from nowhere:
Orphan genes are defined as genes that lack detectable similarity to genes in other species and therefore no clear signals of common descent (i.e., homology) can be inferred. Orphans are an enigmatic portion of the genome because their origin and function are mostly unknown and they typically make up 10% to 30% of all genes in a genome
Even humans have hundreds of such genes not found in any other primates. Yet among many microbial populations of up to 10^20 in number (10 million times more than there would've been us since a chimp divergence) we see them accomplish almost nothing. Almost a trillion e coli just to duplicate their citrate gene. 10^20 malaria (p. falciparum) to flip two nucleotides for chloroquine resistance, and so on. If there were anything more impressive we would've heard about it by now. But instead we've watched the microbes have bought ten million times more tickets in the evolution lottery and all won almost nothing. Because of this I reason that most claimed evolutionary adaptations are beyond what mutational search could uncover.JoeCoder
February 10, 2014
February
02
Feb
10
10
2014
02:44 PM
2
02
44
PM
PDT
The teeth always get brought up when I mention this argument. Is there a selective or biochemical reason why dental evolution should be closer to a "true tree" than other characteristics, or is it picking one that matches expectations from among many others? If the teeth were the same would you bring up one its other more obscure marsupial traits like the two holes in the palate bone? How is "canines have marsupial teeth" different than saying "cetaceans can't be closely related to mammals because their nose is unlike any other mammals?" I've read that among primates dental-trees can lead to false relationships with high confidence:
"the bootstrap-based tests indicate that craniodental data can return impressive levels of statistical support (e.g., 97%) for patterns of phylogenetic relationship that are most likely incorrect. In other words, cladistic analyses of higher primate craniodental morphology may yield not only 'false-positive' results, but false-positive results that pass, by a substantial margin, the statistical test favored by many researchers."
So I don't think teeth can be a universal test anyway.JoeCoder
February 10, 2014
February
02
Feb
10
10
2014
02:36 PM
2
02
36
PM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply