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Fuller vs. Ruse: some thoughts on the controversy

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I have just been reading two articles on Intelligent Design which appeared in The Guardian recently: Science in God’s image (May 3, 2010) and
Intelligent design is an oxymoron (May 5, 2010). After reading the articles, I decided to write a detailed commentary on them both.

The first article is by Professor Steve Fuller and represents his personal view. Although his personal “take” on intelligent design is a controversial one in ID circles, Professor Fuller certainly has a clear grasp of what ID is and where it is heading.

The second article is by Professor Michael Ruse. Professor Ruse has previously debated ID proponents, including Professor William Dembski, so one might reasonably expect him to write a well-informed critique. However, after reading his latest article, I regret to say that Professor Ruse never seems to have understood the nature of the Intelligent Design project in the first place.

1. My comments on Professor Steve Fuller’s article

The most interesting paragraph of Professor Fuller’s article is also the most controversial one. It warrants careful analysis.

The most basic formulation of ID is that biology is divine technology. In other words, God is no less – and possibly no more – than an infinitely better version of the ideal Homo sapiens, whose distinctive species calling card is art, science and technology. Thus, when ID supporters claim that a cell is as intelligently designed as a mousetrap, they mean it literally. The difference between God and us is simply that God is the one being in whom all of our virtues are concentrated perfectly, whereas for our own part those virtues are distributed imperfectly amongst many individuals.

Before I comment on this paragraph, I’d like to recall what I wrote in a post entitled In Praise of Subtlety (22 April 2010), on the philosophy of John Duns Scotus, a medieval theologian known as the Subtle Doctor:

Scotus held that since intelligence and goodness were pure perfections, not limited by their very nature to a finite mode of realization, they could be predicated univocally of God and human beings. To be sure, God’s way of knowing and loving is altogether different from ours: it belongs to God’s very essence to know and love perfectly, whereas we can only know and love by participating in God’s knowledge and love. Also, God’s knowledge and goodness are essentially infinite, while our knowledge and goodness are finite. However, what it means for God to know and love is exactly the same as what it means for human beings to know and love.

However, God is not a Superman. Speaking as a Christian who professes the Catholic faith, and who happens to admire certain aspects of Duns Scotus’ philosophy, I would reverse Professor Fuller’s statement that God is an infinitely better version of the ideal Homo sapiens, for two reasons: first, it exposes believers to the charge of anthropomorphism, and of making God in our own image; second, the ideal Homo sapiens is still an embodied being, whereas God is a spirit. What I would say instead is that human beings possess intelligence and moral goodness to a finite degree, precisely because they are made in the image and likeness of the infinite God. But whereas God is Intelligence and Goodness personified, humans can only know and love by participating in God’s intelligence and love.

What about Professor Fuller’s statement that “biology is divine technology”? This is a statement which no scientist or theologian needs to fear, if by “technology” we simply mean the generation of things whose creation requires skill. By “skill” I mean an activity performed by an intelligent agent acting intentionally, and resulting in information that generates a specific pattern or form. Skill, as I define it here, does not have to include the physical activity of assembling the parts of a thing, piece by piece. God is perfectly free to create as He chooses, using either natural or supernatural means. The term “divine technology” therefore refers to God’s intentional activity of creating certain patterns in nature which embody a very specific kind of information.

As I see it, the main point of the ID program is that certain identifiable features of living things had to have been explicitly specified by the Creator of the biosphere – whether directly (through an act of intervention), or indirectly (either by fine-tuning the initial conditions of the universe, or by building highly specific laws into the fabric of the cosmos, in order to generate the desired features). How God specified these features is unimportant; the question ID attempts to answer is: which features of the biosphere can be shown to be specified? Did God specify the design of the okapi? I have no idea. But ID proponents can confidently claim that the design of the first living cell, the body plans of the 30+ phyla of animals living today, and numerous irreducibly complex systems found in the cells of organisms (including the bacterial flagellum and the blood clotting system) were explicitly specified by the Creator of the biosphere. And the list of specifications is likely to keep growing.

Of course, religious believers are right to point out that even in the absence of any identifiable specifications, the cosmos, and every thing in it, would still need to be kept in being by God. For the cosmos is contingent; it cannot explain its own existence. This is a metaphysical fact, which believers (including many in the ID camp) will assent to. But ID itself is not a metaphysical project, but a scientific one. The question it seeks to answer in the biological arena is: are there any empirically identifiable features of living things that had to have been explicitly specified by their Creator, and if so, which ones?

The other paragraph I’d like to highlight from Steve Fuller’s essay is the following:

But the basic point that remains radical to this day is that, in important ways, the divine and the human are comparable. Notwithstanding Adam’s fall, we are still created “in the image and likeness of God”. From this biblical claim it follows that we might be capable of deploying the powers that distinguish us from the other animals to come closer to God. Such is the theological template on which the secular idea of progress was forged during the scientific revolution.

I agree with the theological point Fuller is making here. Of course the divine and human are comparable, despite the vast differences that separate them: even to say that God’s intelligence is infinite while that of humans is finite is to make a comparison, as it involves predicating intelligence of both God and human beings. The human intellect, which scientists use whenever they do science, is made in God’s image. Fuller’s modest statement that we “might be capable” (emphasis mine) of coming closer to God by using our intellects, which distinguish us from the other animals, is a worthy and pious hope. It is an historical fact that the pioneers of the scientific revolution thought they were thinking God’s thoughts after Him, and the contemporary scientific quest for a mathematically elegant “theory of everything” has a strong mystical streak: at heart, it reflects an endeavor to second-guess the way in which God, the Supreme Intelligence, would have designed the fundamental parameters of the cosmos.

This mysticism at the heart of science explains why Albert Einstein, although not a believer in a personal God, felt impelled to make declarations such as these: “I maintain that the cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research,” and “What I am really interested in is knowing whether God could have created the world in a different way; in other words, whether the requirement of logical simplicity admits a margin of freedom.”

Not being an historian of science, I do not wish to take issue with Professor Fuller’s assertion, which he makes later on his article, that ID “is no more anti-science than the original Protestant reformers were atheists,” or with his view that the Scientific Revolution was to a large degree inspired by Protestant thinking. I will simply point out in passing that the scientific revolution is commonly considered to have begun with the publication of two ground-breaking works in 1543: Nicolaus Copernicus’s De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres) and Andreas Vesalius’s De humani corporis fabrica (On the Fabric of the Human body). Both of these works were written by Catholics. On the whole, I believe Christianity – whether Catholic or Protestant – to be a science-friendly religion.

In my opinion, however, Fuller’s observation that people today are taking science into their own hands, just as they took religion into their hands in the 16th and 17th centuries, is sociologically accurate, and he is surely right to draw parallels between the role of the Internet as the means by which people are now calling into question assertions made by experts in various scientific fields (think of global warming, for instance), and the role of the printing press in the 16th and 17th centuries as the vehicle through which statements by authority figures in the religious domain were brought into question.

2. My comments on Professor Michael Ruse’s article

I am very sorry to say that Professor Ruse’s article, Intelligent design is an oxymoron, contains about as many factual and logical inaccuracies as it contains statements. These inaccuracies relate to science, philosophy and religion. To illustrate my point, I shall quote excerpts from the article and briefly comment on each.

At the heart of Steve Fuller’s defense of intelligent design theory (ID) is a false analogy. He compares the struggles of the ID supporters to the travails of the Protestant Reformers. Just as they stood against the established Catholic church, so the ID supporters stand against establishment science, specifically Darwinian evolutionary theory. Where this comparison breaks down is that the Protestants were no less Christians than the Catholics. It was rather that they differed over the right way to get to heaven. For the Protestants it was justification through faith, believing in the Lord, whereas for Catholics, it was good works. Given that Saint Augustine, some thousand years before, had labeled the Catholic position the heresy of Pelagianism, the reformers had a good point.

The first paragraph of Professor Ruse’s article is riddled with factual errors. Where to begin?

(1) Full marks to Professor Ruse for acknowledging that Protestants and Catholics are both Christians. At least he got that right.

(2) Professor Ruse is quite wrong in claiming that Catholics believe good works will get you to Heaven. Indeed, the Catechism of the Catholic Church declares the contrary: “We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved” (paragraph 2005). Paragraphs 1987-2029 of the Catechism explain what the Catholic Church actually teaches on grace and justification. Readers will be pleasantly surprised to learn that Catholics and Protestants are a lot closer on these issues than is popularly assumed.

(3) Pelagius, according to the same catechism, “held that man could by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God’s grace, lead a morally good life” (paragraph 406). As the catechism mentions in a footnote, Pelagius’s teachings (including a watered-down version of his views, called Semipelagianism) were officially condemned by the Catholic Church at the Second Council of Orange in 529 A.D.

(4) Saint Augustine did not label the Catholic position “Pelagianism.” On the contrary, he did everything in his power (including lobbying two Popes) to get the Catholic Church to condemn Pelagius’ errors – an endeavor in which he was finally successful.

(5) The Catechism of the Catholic Church approvingly cites St. Augustine no less than six times in its article on Grace and Justification (paragraphs 1987-2029). Which is a pretty odd thing to do if St. Augustine said the Catholic Church was in “heresy,” don’t you think?

Not a good start. And I’m afraid it doesn’t get better. Here’s another excerpt:

In the ID case, whatever its supporters may say publicly for political purposes – in the USA thanks to the First Amendment you cannot teach religion in state-funded schools – the intention is to bring God into the causal process. ID claims that there are some phenomena (like the bacterial flagellum and the blood-clotting cascade) are so “irreducibly complex,” that to explain them we must invoke an “intelligent designer.” As they admit among themselves – the philosopher-mathematician William Dembski is quite clear on this – the designer is none other than our old friend the God of Christianity.

(1) “Bring God into the causal process”?? The notion makes absolutely no sense. According to religious believers, no causal process could exist without God in the first place. God sustains the universe in being; it would not exist, even for a second, without Him.

(2) Irreducibly complexity doesn’t come in degrees; either a system is irreducibly complex or it isn’t. Professor Ruse’s phrase “so irreducibly complex” (emphasis mine) betrays a misunderstanding of this point.

(3) Professor Dembski’s views on the identity of the intelligent designer form no part of Intelligent Design theory, as contained in ID textbooks. Intelligent Design as such is a scientific project.

(4) Professor Dembski’s religious views and motives are no more germane to the scientific merits of Intelligent Design theory than the atheistic views and motives of most neo-Darwinists are of relevance to the scientific merits of neo-Darwinism.

Professor Ruse opens his third paragraph with the following jaw-dropper:

The trouble for the Fuller analogy is that science simply does not allow God as a causal factor.

Now, if Professor Ruse had claimed that science does not explicitly invoke God as a causal factor, he would have been on strong argumentative ground. But to say that science does not allow God as a causal factor is patently absurd. Or does Ruse really think that scientists can legislate God out of existence?

Professor Ruse goes on to cite a nineteenth-century Anglican divine, William Whewell, on the limits of science:

“The mystery of creation is not within the range of her [science’s] legitimate territory; she says nothing, but she points upwards.”

Three points in reply:

(1) Whewell’s view on the limits of science is a venerable and respected one; but that does not make it right. In the end, science is the quest for the best explanations of the phenomena we observe. In the last few decades, modern science has encountered certain highly specified phenomena, within the domains of both physics (finely tuned constants of nature) and biology (specified complexity within the cell). Maybe methodological naturalism needs to be questioned.

(2) Intelligent Design theory does not specify the identity of the Designer, as Professor Ruse is well aware.

(3) Even if ID proponents were to reason like Professor Fuller would like them to do, and try to reverse-engineer the cell, assuming it to have been designed by an infinitely intelligent Being (God), the modus operandi of the Creator would still remain a mystery. Thus even if scientists were to abandon methodological naturalism and embrace theism, creation would retain an aura of mystery for them.

Professor Ruse continues:

In the 20th century, two of the most important Darwinian biologists – Ronald Fisher in England and the Russian-born Theodosius Dobzhansky in America – were deeply committed Christians.

Now, Fisher was indeed a devout Anglican, despite his rather Darwinian views on eugenics; but Dobzhansky’s religious views were anything but Christian, according to this interesting article by Denyse O’Leary. A eulogy published by Dobzhansky’s pupil Francisco Ayala in 1977 described the content of his religion thus: “Dobzhansky was a religious man, although he apparently rejected fundamental beliefs of traditional religion, such as the existence of a personal God and of life beyond physical death. His religiosity was grounded on the conviction that there is meaning in the universe. He saw that meaning in the fact that evolution has produced the stupendous diversity of the living world and has progressed from primitive forms of life to mankind. Dobzhansky held that, in man, biological evolution has transcended itself into the realm of self-awareness and culture. He believed that somehow mankind would eventually evolve into higher levels of harmony and creativity.” [Ayala, F.J., “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution,” Journal of Heredity, Vol. 68, January-February 1977, p. 9.]

Professor Ruse goes on to accuse ID proponents of being defeatists, and hence no true scientists:

As Thomas Kuhn pointed out repeatedly, when scientists cannot find solutions, they don’t blame the world. They blame themselves. You don’t give up in the face of disappointments. You try again. Imagine if Watson and Crick had thrown in the towel when their first model of the DNA molecule proved fallacious. The very essence of ID is admitting defeat and invoking inexplicable miracles. The bacterial flagellum is complex. Turn to God! The blood clotting cascade is long and involved. Turn to God! That is simply not the way to do science.

(1) Contrary to what Ruse claims, ID proponents are eternally grateful to Watson and Crick for persevering in their quest to identify the structure of DNA. Without their persistence, scientists would never have known that DNA is a digital code, which contains a large amount of specified information. It was precisely this feature of DNA that Dr. Stephen Meyer highlighted in his recent book, Signature in the Cell, in which he argued that only the intentional activity of an intelligent agent could adequately explain the occurrence of DNA.

(2) ID proponents would never urge a scientist to give up trying to understand a process that is already known to occur, such as heredity. We should never give up trying to understand what things are; that’s science. The question that preoccupies ID is where they came from, or what process generated them in the first place.

(3) ID invokes an Intelligent Designer only when it has established that the probability of a specified biological feature arising as a result of the laws of nature coupled with random processes, falls below a well-defined threshold. Thus if evolutionary naturalism is true, then the emergence of this feature would be astronomically improbable. In a situation like this, invoking an Intelligent Designer is not “giving up”; on the contrary, it simply amounts to a rational decision to stop flogging a dead horse (evolutionary naturalism).

(4) As a scientific project, Intelligent Design does not equate the Designer with God, even if many ID proponents happen to believe that the Designer is in fact God.

In any case, there’s no need to worry, Professor Ruse assures us: science has succeeded in explaining away the very phenomena that gave rise to ID theory.

And as it happens, both the flagellum and the cascade have revealed their very natural, law-bound mysteries to regular scientists who keep plugging away and wouldn’t take “no” for an answer.

(1) Regarding the flagellum: curious readers may like to click here to hear Professor Michael Behe explain why, in his view, the flagellum is irreducibly complex, on Intelligent Design the Future. Behe also examines the two currently proposed evolutionary explanations for the assembly of the flagellum, co-option and homology, showing why both proposals fall short in uncovering the origins of this molecular machine. See also Behe’s recent blog post, “Reducible complexity’ in PNAS, which debunks claims that the evolution of the flagellum has now been explained in naturalistic terms, without the need for a Designer.

(2) As regards the blood clotting cascade, readers might like to begin with In Defense of the Irreducibility of the Blood Clotting Cascade: Response to Russell Doolittle, Ken Miller and Keith Robison (July 31, 2000), by Professor Michael Behe, as well as Casey Luskin’s recent recap, Kenneth Miller, Michael Behe and the Irreducible Complexity of the Blood Clotting Cascade Saga (January 1, 2010), which has links to eleven follow-up articles on the blood clotting cascade.

I am not a scientist; but my impression is that Professor Behe acquits himself well in this dispute.

Professor Ruse has argued robustly, if erroneously, up to this point. But suddenly his tone changes from aggressive to wounded:

ID is theology – very bad theology. As soon as you bring God into the world on a daily creative basis, then the theodicy problem – the problem of evil – rears its ugly head. If God works away miraculously to do the very complex, presumably in the name of goodness, then why on earth does God not occasionally get involved miraculously to prevent the very simple with horrendous consequences? Some very, very minor genetic changes have truly dreadful effects, causing people life-long pain and despair. If God thought it worth His time to make the blood clot, then why was it not worth His time to prevent Huntingdon’s Chorea?

(1) ID as such does not claim that God interacts with the world on a daily basis. Another possibility, for those who accept ID, is that God fine-tuned the initial conditions of the cosmos at the beginning of time, so as to bring about the eventual emergence of irreducibly complex systems, such as the blood clotting cascade. No supernatural intervention is required on this scenario.

(2) Repairing mutations which occur in millions of individuals, and relate to thousands of different diseases, would demand a lot more Divine intervention than the single act of creating an irreducibly complex system.

(3) “What about preventing these mutations from happening in the first place?” I hear you ask. Easier said than done, and until we know the biological cost associated with doing that, it’s premature to complain about God not doing so. Some of these mutations might be beneficial in certain circumstances; removing them might not be a good idea.

(4) Religious believers would add that the Fall of our first parents might well have prevented God from intervening to prevent human suffering as often as He would have liked, during human history. Perhaps God’s hands are tied to some extent, by His promise to respect our freedom.

(5) The rhetorical argument proves too much, and could be used against any kind of personal religion: “If God thought it worth His time to [answer a prayer or work a miracle], then why was it not worth His time to prevent Huntingdon’s Chorea?”

Professor Ruse concludes:

Keep God out of the day-to-day functioning of things. If, like the archbishop of Canterbury, you absolutely must have God do law-breaking miracles – apparently he would give up and become a Quaker if the tomb had not been empty on the third day – then at least restrict His activities to the cause of our salvation.

Three short comments in reply:

(1) God conserves everything in being. Like it or not, God is involved in the “day-to-day functioning of things.”

(2) As the Creator of the cosmos, God is entitled to work miracles as rarely or as often as He wishes, and for whatever reason He wishes.

(3) Professor Ruse should not try to tell God what to do.

Comments
Clive Hayden @108, Let me change some of the bolding. That means that if there is a designer, it’s probably LIKELY that the universe is not fine-tuned. If there is no designer at all, then for SURE the universe is not fine-tuned.Toronto
May 10, 2010
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madbat089 (#96) Thank you for your post. I only have time for a few quick responses. (1) Regarding the eye: ID makes no assumptions about the identity of the Designer, but for the purposes of doing science, I think it is fair to assume that at the very least, the Designer would have wanted to a good job, whatever constraints He/She/It may have been working under. (Of course, the exact nature of those constraints would depend on whether the Designer is a transcendent Creator, a Demiurge or a visiting alien.) So the question we need to ask is: how bad is the eye? (a) "I can imagine a better one," says the village skeptic. But being able to imagine something doesn't make it possible. I can imagine a winged horse, or a horse that turns into a purple triangle. That doesn't make them possible. (b) "I can build a better one," says a more sophisticated skeptic. Fine; well, by all means do. Let's see your better eye and test it out in the lab. Can you engineer one genetically, in a vertebrate? Now that would impress me. Looking at the "New Scientist" articles on the eye (see https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-blind-leading-the-blind/ ), it is remarkable that they contradict each other. One says, "It looks wrong, but the strange, 'backwards' structure of the vertebrate retina actually improves vision." The other says, "It still creates a blind spot. It would make much more sense to put Muller-like cells in front of the sensors, with the wiring behind." Well, get your story straight! For me, the first question I'd want to answer is: starting with the genes of a vertebrate ancestor living 530 million years ago, and taking into account its biological (anatomical and habitat-related) constraints, what could a hypothetical engineer have done better, when designing the vertebrate eye? The second question I'd want to answer is: starting with the first living thing 4 billion years ago, how could a hypothetical engineer have designed its genes better, to make a better vertebrate eye, given the habitat-related and anatomical constraints imposed by the vertebrate lifestyle? One totally unintelligent question that I would NOT attempt to address is: how could a magician have built a better vertebrate eye, while neglecting the other biological constraints that vertebrates live under? That's just fairyland stuff, not science. "But a transcendent God could wish away those constraints," say the village skeptics. Yes, He could, but then what you'd be left with wouldn't be a vertebrate. It would be something else. (2) Regarding the blog by Avise: I don't care whether you agree or disagree with its argument; what concerns me more is that Avise took the claims of ID seriously enough to examine the question of how the genome could have been better designed. By doing so, he implicitly agreed that the claims of ID are falsifiable, which is precisely my point. (3) If you don't like kairosfocus' style, you are perfectly free not to respond to his posts, but please don't resort to personal criticisms.vjtorley
May 10, 2010
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Toronto: you bring up a really important point in the fine-tuning discussion: why should the presumed existence of a designer necessitate fine-tuning in the universe? In other words: why should fine-tuning be an argument FOR ID? I already argued in #88 that it is not a particularly useful argument AGAINST any theories on the origin of life by naturalistic means (and there are several), because it is not a scientific, but a philosophical argument...madbat089
May 10, 2010
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Toronto,
That means that if there is a designer, it’s probably likely that the universe is NOT fine-tuned.
ummmmm....... :)Clive Hayden
May 10, 2010
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bornagain77 @104, Why are you getting angry with me? kairosfocus, myself and many others on this site can design an electronic circuit that biases itself to specified values despite temperature or input power changes. Why can't the universe be like that? If there is an intelligent designer, he's at least as good as we are at designing self-adjusting systems. That means that if there is a designer, it's probably likely that the universe is NOT fine-tuned. If there is no designer at all, then for sure the universe is NOT fine-tuned.Toronto
May 10, 2010
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kairofocus: "You know full well that you are not talking about review by the publisher or publishing committee when you talk about peer review in eh relevant sense." I recall to have said the following: peer review in Einstein's day was not the same thing as it is today; so it's basically meaningless to compare the review process that his publications received to the current process. According to the standards of his day, Einstein's publications were reviewed by his peers. "By the standard you just cited, all the ID papers and books you and your ilk were previously so dismissive of were reviewed at the same level, by knowledgeable peers." Which papers and books are you referring to? And no, because that standard is the standard of 1905, which does not apply today. Which should be obvious. "And in fact you know full well that the modern secret panel of three review system — what I obviously contrasted Einstein’s 1905 papers to — is largely a post WW 2 phenomenon; and largely grew out of the US Govt’s desire for a criterion of funding science projects and scientists. It was not just a matter of oh, there were too many papers." and how is this a bad thing? "And, we have the ongoing Climate scandal that shows a key defect of the system: once ideologised, it can be used to lock in an orthodoxy and lock out those who challenge it." sources, please (and no, I don't mean somebody's blog...)? "Indeed, looking back over the past few days, I am more and more suspecting that your evident intent is to derail, not to seriously address serious centrally important matters on the merits, then to try to drag discussion down into the fever swamp of distortions and personalities." the merits of what? distortions of what? whose personalities? you are getting more and more agitated in what is obviously an attempt to avoid making any clear, precise statements that anyone actually COULD have a discussion about. "I take great offense to your citing facts that amount to the same thing as I have said, then twisting them to try to pretend that somehow this justifies you in a contemptuous dismissal;" that's a really cute way of stomping off hurt, which appears to be a strategy to hide the fact that you have nothing to offer in response to my questions on the matter of 1) why the curious inside-out structure of the eye would provide a better performance (balanced or optimized or anything) than any other structure. 2) if ID provides any kind of model for constraints imposed on morphological structures. "after without evidence you tried to cast aspersions against fairly simple calculations on fairly accessible data; and after you pounced on me over a matter that is minor at best. All you have managed to do in the end is to inadvertently draw attention tot he fact that you and your ilk have nothing to say on the merits to the origin of complex, algorithmically functional digital information and associated processing systems in the heart of cell based life." wow - apparently we don't speak the same language. Again, my questions were an attempt to get clarification on what kind of "data" you are talking about, what kind of data you are applying these calculations to. The term "algorithmically functional digital information" is not data. Math cannot be applied to it. An actual algorithm is data. you got one that we can discuss? like one on the evolution of wings? or on the evolution of whatever you like??? I am getting the impression that you are running out of things to discuss, and are retreating into the realm of gratuitous mud-tossing. If I am wrong, it would be really awesome if you (or anyone else lurking about, for that matter), would care to address any of the many very precise questions I have been trying to discuss throughout.madbat089
May 10, 2010
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Toronto the point I want you to clearly realize is that the material basis of this universe, energy, is constrained on several sides by "invisible walls" of transcendent information constants. Yet this fact of reality should not be so if materialism were true. i.e. if the basis of reality, from which everything else "emerges", truly is material particles why should the foundational particle of all particles, the photon, be subject to non-varying constraints at all. Clearly transcendent information, as postulated by Theism, is demonstrating dominion of the foundational material particle of the universe. i.e. this is further confirmed in quantum teleportation experiments.bornagain77
May 10, 2010
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Toronto #87: So you think we can play around with the universal constants and still have a universe suitable for life? well these experts beg to differ: "If we modify the value of one of the fundamental constants, something invariably goes wrong, leading to a universe that is inhospitable to life as we know it. When we adjust a second constant in an attempt to fix the problem(s), the result, generally, is to create three new problems for every one that we “solve.” The conditions in our universe really do seem to be uniquely suitable for life forms like ourselves, and perhaps even for any form of organic complexity. Gribbin and Rees, “Cosmic Coincidences”, p. 269" If you would have watched this video you would not have made that mistake of reasoning toronto: (The quote is at the 6:24 min. mark) Anthropic Principle – God Created The Universe – Michael Strauss PhD. – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4323661 But then again toronto it doesn't seem you are much interested in the truth judging from your garbled attempt to refute the constancy of the speed of light by appealing to energy levels only to have you throw up obfuscation when you realized I has already addressed that. Don't you find that reprehensible toronto?bornagain77
May 10, 2010
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MB: You know full well that you are not talking about review by the publisher or publishing committee when you talk about peer review in eh relevant sense. By the standard you just cited, all the ID papers and books you and your ilk were previously so dismissive of were reviewed at the same level, by knowledgeable peers. And in fact you know full well that the modern secret panel of three review system -- what I obviously contrasted Einstein's 1905 papers to -- is largely a post WW 2 phenomenon; and largely grew out of the US Govt's desire for a criterion of funding science projects and scientists. It was not just a matter of oh, there were too many papers. And, we have the ongoing Climate scandal that shows a key defect of the system: once ideologised, it can be used to lock in an orthodoxy and lock out those who challenge it. You are beginning to sound like you need to look seriously at your attitude, which plainly assumes that those who come from the other side of disputes in which you are a party, are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. Indeed, looking back over the past few days, I am more and more suspecting that your evident intent is to derail, not to seriously address serious centrally important matters on the merits, then to try to drag discussion down into the fever swamp of distortions and personalities. I take great offense to your citing facts that amount to the same thing as I have said, then twisting them to try to pretend that somehow this justifies you in a contemptuous dismissal; after without evidence you tried to cast aspersions against fairly simple calculations on fairly accessible data; and after you pounced on me over a matter that is minor at best. Shame on you! All you have managed to do in the end is to inadvertently draw attention tot he fact that you and your ilk have nothing to say on the merits to the origin of complex, algorithmically functional digital information and associated processing systems in the heart of cell based life. Especially, to the known fact that such digital information systems have one observed commonly known source: intelligence. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 10, 2010
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another sidenote for kairofocus: just to make this clear, since you make such a big deal out of it: I don't give a hoot about typos. Typos happen to everybody, me included. However, what I am trying to address are typos and grammatical errors to the extent where they obscure the meaning of a sentence. And I did so by asking you to repeat garbled statements in a generally intelligible manner. I really don't get why you call this a "dismissal" of your statements, when it was simply a question to repeat them?madbat089
May 10, 2010
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kairofocus: hmmm, I guess I should know better than to take your word at face-value: I just checked your claim that Einstein's publication of the theory of relativity in "Annalen der Physik" was not peer-reviewed. Well, here are the facts: as was the practice for any scientific publication in 1905, the article was indeed reviewed by the publishers of the journal, in this case by Max Planck and Wilhelm Wien (two extremely prominent scientists in his field, in case anyone didn't know), undoubtedly Einstein's peers. The practice of having an article reviewed by scientists other than the publishers came into practice after WWII, because the sheer volume of submitted publications made the old practice of publisher-review impractical.madbat089
May 10, 2010
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kairofocus: "Pardon, your attempt to dismiss ID thought on appeal to the authority of the same sort of magisterium that has been cooking the books on climate science, is telling." authority of some sort of magisterium? Looks like we are aptly gliding into the realm of mythology here, which shouldn't surprise me, since we are talking about ID. And wow, I'd love you show me a publication of a climatologist on evolution! "Kindly observe, again, Lewontin’s admission on the imposition of a priori materialism. (And BTW, it took just one powerful but non-peer reviewed article to found relativity; in Annalen der Physik.)" not sure what's supposed to be wrong with a priori materialism - ID after all works on a priori theology; and yeah - the first article on relativity was indeed published in Annalen der Physik - I kindly suggest to do a search on a scientific search engine to witness the landslide of peer-reviewed publications on relatitivity that followed... "On the eye, you need to reflect on design trade-offs across various factors, and in particular on flexible robustness vs optimisation. Balanced performance is far more important than peak performance under one set of defined circumstances. Worse, we may only properly judge sub-optimality when we know the objective function and constraints acting. (Cf. here for a few insights posted by Cirus.)" Guess what, 'reflection' is the business of philosophy, whereas science is in the business of hyphothesis-testing. And I absolutely agree with you on the point of balanced performance - which is exactly what ID has failed to produce any useful hyptheses, tests and results about: why the curious inside-out structure of the eye would provide a better performance (balanced or optimized or anything) than any other structure. And I concur even more strongly with you on the point that we need to know the constraints on a mechanism to judge it's performance. Which is exactly what the suggested evolutionary pathway of phylogenetic development does! If you have any suggestions on the constraints imposed by an all-powerful designer, I would be absolutely delighted to hear them!!! "As to your attempts to question and dismiss basic mathematics of digital elements in chains, and the implied configuration spaces of n p-state elements, with onward import on search on the gamut of our observed cosmos;" It seems I have to repeat myself: I am NOT questioning basic mathematics, I am trying to figure out WHAT it is you are calculating? Are you calculating the likelyhood of a wing emerging by chance? of a wing evolving out of a dinosaur-forelimb? of a protein changing it's function? of a base-pair being replaced? The likleyhood of what EVENT are you calulating? And why is the amount of states that the atoms in the universe can take on important for any of this? You seem to use that number as some sort of upper probability bound if an event can or cannot objectively happen? So maybe you can enlighten me to the actual purpose of your calculations before you keep accusing me in cryptic and non-helpful ways of "dismissing" any alleged truths. And a referral to some other blog of yours is utterly useless, since you surely do not suggest to use that as an original, reliable source for anything. "And, my earlier remarks on cosmological issues and the import of the von Neumann replicator in cell based life were a compressed summary. though I do admit that on occasion I will miss typos or miss a grammatical feature." mhm, well, if you are so sure any of those issues are relevant to the discussion, I am sure you don't mind repeating them in a style that has helpful spelling and grammatical features that make them into intelligible statements. By the way, on the risk of repeating myself: evolutionary theory falls into the realm of biological science. Cosmology falls into the realm of physical science. Evolutionary theory is not relevant in the science of cosmology.madbat089
May 10, 2010
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kairosfocus @93,
And with Toronto, IT IS NOT CALCULATIONS BUT UNDERLYING LOGIC AND MODELS THAT HAVE PROBLEMS.
Agreed. The model you use for evolution is not the model evolutionists use.Toronto
May 10, 2010
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MB: Pardon, your attempt to dismiss ID thought on appeal to the authority of the same sort of magisterium that has been cooking the books on climate science, is telling. Kindly observe, again, Lewontin's admission on the imposition of a priori materialism. (And BTW, it took just one powerful but non-peer reviewed article to found relativity; in Annalen der Physik.) On the eye, you need to reflect on design trade-offs across various factors, and in particular on flexible robustness vs optimisation. Balanced performance is far more important than peak performance under one set of defined circumstances. Worse, we may only properly judge sub-optimality when we know the objective function and constraints acting. (Cf. here for a few insights posted by Cirus.) As to your attempts to question and dismiss basic mathematics of digital elements in chains, and the implied configuration spaces of n p-state elements, with onward import on search on the gamut of our observed cosmos; what is on display - sadly - is selective hyperskepticism, rather than any serious examination of the matter on the merits. If you have identified an error, correct it. As to the fact that 8 bits enfold 2^8 = 256 configs and extensions thereof, that is a commonplace, based on 2 x 2 x . . . x 2 possibilities eight times over, etc. My linked presentation of basic information theory is standard. The basic thermodynamics I have summarised can be cross checked in standard works. My summary of Jaynes and Robertson can be examined on the terms that I have pointed out: this is one school of thought with a significant view. That you might not like where such analyses point does not give you a right to sneer and dismiss without doing the spade work to detect and correct error. Mathematics does not rest on the vote or views of the individual or the school of thought, but on the substance of eh analysis. And, my earlier remarks on cosmological issues and the import of the von Neumann replicator in cell based life were a compressed summary. You have to date shown no signs that you have the relevant basic familiarity to address seriously on the merits; though I do admit that on occasion I will miss typos or miss a grammatical feature. The bottomline, however, is all too sadly plain: attacking the man or the style to dismiss the argument; rather than addressing serious issue seriously. G'day GEM of TKI PS: FYI, I happen to be dyslexic, and will (esp. if tired) miss typos and things like subject-verb agreement.kairosfocus
May 10, 2010
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side note on the whopping 11 published articles supporting ID: for the 6 articles I looked at more closely even a very brief and superficial search on scientific search engines produced a minimum of roughly 100-200 articles each, contradicting the evidence for the alleged explanatory shortcomings of evolutionary theory presented in those 6 articles. Moreover, the most prominently celebrated article (Meyer, 2004) was retracted by the journal that originally published it because it turned out that it actually didn't pass peer-review after all.madbat089
May 9, 2010
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Vjtorley: “evolution gave flawed eye better vision” – well the title of this article already suggests what you then admit yourself: the recent finding is a discovery of a coping mechanism with an inherently suboptimal structure. That’s exactly what the article goes on to talk about, so I really don’t know why anyone would chalk this as a point in the ID court. But, to start a lot earlier in that entire discussion: evolutionary theory suggests a scenario, supported by evidence from eye- and eye-like structures in living and fossil organisms, how and why the human eye came to be what it is today through a gradual process. Is there any useful scientific hypothesis from an ID perspective that addresses the same how and why? Or the phenomenon that there SEEM to be gradual improvements through phylogenetic history to structures such as eyes? Or why, just as a random example, any creature that needs to see would have anything less than the supposed “optimal” structure of the human eye to accomplish that task with? The “human genome” example you link is not a scientific article, it is a blog commenting on a scientific article that is strongly in agreement with evolutionary theory as it pertains to the origin and structure of the human genome. So I don’t see any points for ID here either, and a blogged opinion certainly does not constitute science. To your point that Dr. Avise must think that ID is falsifiable: as becomes evident from the blog opinion-piece, the only clearly formulated arguments against ID (as opposed to evidence presented in support of evolutionary theory) made by Avise are pertaining to a merciful god as the designer, which the blogger accurately assigns to the realm of theology/philosophy, not science. That’s because there is no clear concept or hypothesis of what structures/organisms produced by ID would look like if you take the designer out of the discussion. Whether the designer is Zeus or Loki or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Christian God has profoundly different implications on the idea of design we expect to detect… And no one can make clear arguments about an unspecified hypothesis. Taking up the suggested trail of scientific evidence, I followed the “weak arguments” link to the Discovery Institute website and found a “complete list of peer-reviewed scientific publications”. Out of this list, there is an entirety of 11 articles published in reputable scientific journals. I read 6 of them, and scanned the remaining 5, which were concerned with mathematical problems at a level that is beyond me to adequately address (that have in most cases, however, been addressed and criticized by mathematicians). Each single one of these articles are concerned with problems that evolutionary theory has NOT YET adequately addressed. Which brings us back to the negative arguments, which are insufficient to make any case FOR ID. Not a single article actually presents any kind of model or hypothesis of how and why things are what they are in the natural world. On top of that, all these articles distinguish themselves by a remarkable amount of self-referencing, which is the benchmark of either poor knowledge or intentional omission of relevant literature. Kairofocus: I apologize for imprecision in the formulation of my question. I am not questioning the accuracy of the numbers or calculations you presented. I am interested if your application of these numbers and calculations to the processes you apply them to is based on scientific publications legitimizing these applications. To adequately address this, however, I need to also return to the issue of garbled language, which leaves it somewhat foggy what exactly you are actually calculating. Statements like: “Per observation of genomes and the progress towards von Neumann replicators, we see that this implies information origin at a level that chance processes – all that is available for high contingency once agency is ruled out ex hypothesi – is a credible source on.” or “SWo, now, wher eis your explanation how, on chance plus necessity only we get to body plans stwrting weiththe first?” do not qualify as English sentences where I come from. And as a published scientist I might have little bit of an edge on you when it comes to familiarity with the issues discussed. So, maybe, if you are interested in a real discussion, you could type a little slower and clearly state what and why you are calculating what you are calculating. If not, that’s fine by me too.madbat089
May 9, 2010
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MB: Following up on another point, if 76 sounds garbled to you you lack familiarity with the issues being discussed. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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PS: If you do find real errors of calculation or logic, I would welcome correction. To err is human. But, looking back I think much of what you may object to is numbers, the sources of which are in the linked, or else in fairly standard works, like the Planck time or number of atoms [I am being slightly generous], etc.kairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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MB: FYI, math is math. One of the beautiful things about it is that it is either right or wrong, and being right is a matter of the logic and calculations;not whodunit. (And as one with an undergrad major in math, and p/g in applied physics, I will be usually able to read and understand more or less basic college level math.) If you think I am wrong [here or in my always linked], go check. But since the math in this thread you are challenging is of the order of for n p-state elements, there are p^n possible configs, and that log a/log b = logb(a), I think you may need a refresher on basic scientific notation and the like. And with Toronto, IT IS NOT CALCULATIONS BUT UNDERLYING LOGIC AND MODELS THAT HAVE PROBLEMS. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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kairosfocus @90,
[Toronto], 61: The Evo position is that evolution is a process that works by transitioning from (state_N) to (state_N+1). [kairosfocus]1 –> Out the starting gate, you are ignoring the questions of complexity and body function and the need to originate an initial von Neumann replicator, then preserve a viable replicator from generation to generation. [Cf the remarks in the next thread as just linked.]
I am not ignoring anything at my layer of abstraction. You however have claimed that I have not satisfied detail at a layer I have never claimed my example requires. That sir, is a strawman.Toronto
May 9, 2010
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short question for kairofocus: is all the math you present your math, or are there other sources?madbat089
May 9, 2010
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Onlookers: Since ET propagated a slander against me in another thread, I have given a more detailed response on natural selectionism there. Toronto: I see your 61, now you draw my attention to it. For simplicity I insert comments on arrow points: __________________ T, 61: The Evo position is that evolution is a process that works by transitioning from (state_N) to (state_N+1). 1 --> Out the starting gate, you are ignoring the questions of complexity and body function and the need to originate an initial von Neumann replicator, then preserve a viable replicator from generation to generation. [Cf the remarks in the next thread as just linked.] Here is an example: StateN = 10110010 StateN + 1 = 10110011 If ony one bit mutates every generation, how many generations might it take to get to StateN + 1? 2 --> You are implicitly assuming that every variation is functional. 3 --> Do you have evidence that every variation of every base in a DNA organism creates viable function, and that simply extending DNA at random creates viable novel function, not in a simulation but in the real world? I calculate the likely amount of generations to be 8. 4 --> In the real world, a novel body plan would have to sufficiently emerge to be functional, starting with the first, and then with complexification on the order of 10's or more of megabits to get to novel body plans [where 1 base pr = 2 bits basic info storage capacity] 5 --> Worse, on evidence the initial range of viable body plans for biological von Neumann replicators is of order 100's of k bits. The ID side usually responds with 2^8 or 256. 6 --> 8 bits or even 256 bits or even 1,000 bite would be far too small to have a viable von Neumann replicator, so the answer is infinity; i.e. it will never happen. Your 1000 bits, would likely take only 1000 (lifeforms or generations) to transition from StateN to StateN + 1, not 2^1000 (lifeforms or generations). 7 --> A 1,000 bit functional change will be immediately beyond the resources of our observed cosmos, once we recognise that the vast majority of possible configs are going to be non-functional; that is why it was chosen 8 --> This is because, a cosmos of ~ 10^80 atoms, changing state every Planck time, for 10^25 s will yield but 10^150 states, i.e.effectively no search of the config space 9 --> This gets far worse for DNA of realistic length, 100,000 bases or more. (And I am ignoring the thermodynamically unfavourable reactions needed to chain DNA of required length, as well as associated working machine molecules and the protective sac.) 10 --> Even granting an initial life form, to get to major novel body plans similar to those seen in say the Cambrian fossil revolution, would take in credibly 10's of millions of new functional bases. 11 --> Observe my comments and excerpts in the other thread on what it takes to get tot he sort of coordinated, embryologically early mutations and coordination to get to novel body plans. 12 --> And, observe my note on the Blythian as opposed to Darwinian character of natural selection in light of the problem of say a forelimb becoming a wing: we get a bad forelimb long before we get a good enough wing, and the variation would be selected against. 13 --> In short, Darwin's tree of life is not just unconfirmed by an almost unmanageably rich fossil record, but is refuted by it: sudden appearance, stasis and disappearance predominate, not gradual shading off from one body form to the next, each and every variation being incrementally advantageous. 14 --> And, that error is what is implicitly assumed in your simplified model. So, I must beg to disagree. Are we in agreement? 15 --> Not at all. You have assumed the answers to the real questions and so have inadvertently begged the question. ___________________________ I trust this helps. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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I myself consider it polite to hold a discussion with polite language...for my part.Apollos
May 9, 2010
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yes, call me acronym-challenged, if you wish, I for my part consider it polite to hold a discussion in a widely discernible language. Which also pertains to kairofocus' post #76; despite all the garbled mumbling therein, I discern mostly what Toronto already pointed out: you, and as it turns out, most everybody on this discussion thread, seems to accept evolution as the mechanisms that lead from an earliest living ancestor to the variety of species we observe today, but dispute particular theories on the origin of life. It seems necessary to point out again: Evolutionary theory is not concerned with the origin of life itself, so, discussing it in that context makes no sense. Now, with that confusion hopefully cleared, it is important to establish: Which particular scientific theory of the origin of life are any of you discussing/disputing? vjtorley: "Surely you jest. Ancestral life-forms with genetic coding for functions that won’t appear in their descendants for hundreds of millions of years are not evidence for ID? “Ah, but the code may have served some other function in the past,” I hear you say. Well: there’s your testable prediction, isn’t it? ID would predict: no, not in all cases. Neo-Darwinian evolution would predict: yes, in all cases." this is exactly the kind of pervasive reliance on negative evidence, on gaps in current knowledge, that I have pointed out earlier: let's go with your so-called testable prediction: the only part of that prediction that is provable is the one that supports evolution: if, bit by bit, over continuous research, an alternative function for each single one of the pieces of code is discovered; however, the current (or future - how far in the future shall we go? none of the theories make predictions on when something shall be discovered - which, I hope we can agree on that, would be absurd) absence of evidence for an alternative function for one or more of such pieces of code is far from proof that it doesn't exist - it just as likely means we haven't found it yet... from an evolutionary perspective, it is actually an amazing and exciting feat to discover any significant number of such likely alternative functions. We are talking here about organisms that have lived millions of years in the past, had no skeletal structures and are therefore practically absent in the fossil record, and any currently living organisms, that we can make inferences from is a distant relative at best... And could anybody explain to me why ID should be compatible with the idea that ANY of those pieces of code would fulfill alternative functions in ancestral organisms, when it rejects evolutionary theory, and thus the idea of an ancestral organisms? F2XL: This would be an example of what I mean by positive evidence: if ID had an actual hypothesis why there would be alternative functions in a genetic code that HASN'T evolved... or, to use a simple and general one: why there are groups of organisms that are more similar to each other than to organisms in other groups. back to vjtorley: the argument of the fine-tuned universe is not really a scientific argument either, it is actually a philosophical one, but let's adress it briefly. It is basically an argument from an upside-down point of view, as has been pointed out by a number of scholars. The universe appears fine-tuned to us as the observers, because no other kind of universe could have produced us as we are. Well, that's the point: if the universe were different, we would either not be here at all to observe anything, or we would be different. Our universe as it is has SHAPED the emergence and evolution of life to its current point. Life has adapted to the universe as it is, not the other way around. As the beings we currently are, carbon-based life is the only one we know and can make any measurements/hypotheses/predictions about. We can't experience and thus not fathom or make any kind of scientific inferences about life different from our own kind of life, that might have been the product of a different universe. There actually are some interesting theories in current astro-physics that black holes might be the origin points of "budding" universes on the other end, and that each one of those universes is likely to have its very own set of physical and chemical rules... while this illustrates the misled nature of the fine-tuning argument, it's going a little far off track in the ID / evolution discussion, so I'll stop here for now.madbat089
May 9, 2010
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bornagain77 @85,
toronto to draw your attention to this; “GRBs Expand Astronomers’ Toolbox – Nov. 2009 Excerpt: a detailed analysis of the GRB (Gamma Ray Burst) in question demonstrated that photons of all energies arrived at essentially the same time.”
If the speed of light was different, the photons should probably all still arrive at the same time. That again, is my point, that you can change one value but that does not drastically alter everything else. See my reply to Clive @84.Toronto
May 9, 2010
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bornagain77 @83, I don't understand what your reply is supposed to address. If the total amount of energy is identical, what has changed? While you haven't mentioned it, the speed of light is actually particle speed so the fabric of matter would change, but that means so would the matter that filters light. As far as the particular wave-lengths that are friendly to our lifeforms, there is nothing that says if it were a different bandwidth that was most prevalent, we might have a different type of life on Earth. My point is that these issues are never addressed when making the fine-tuning argument.Toronto
May 9, 2010
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toronto to draw your attention to this; "GRBs Expand Astronomers’ Toolbox – Nov. 2009 Excerpt: a detailed analysis of the GRB (Gamma Ray Burst) in question demonstrated that photons of all energies arrived at essentially the same time." Please explain to me exactly why the transcendent information constant of the speed of light should always remain steady even though the ultimate material basis of the universe (the photon) varies greatly in energy level? Tell me exactly why should a transcendent information constant exercise universal dominion of energy if materialism were actually true toronto?bornagain77
May 9, 2010
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Clive Hayden @82, In one way you are correct. Consider an NPN transistor in a circuit. The base is biased to 5V so the emitter will be 4.4V. You could put a wide range of resistors from the emitter to ground and you will always have 4.4V, but the current through the resistor will change. That was my point, that changing one constant, (the resistor), may change current but it will not change the voltage. The fine-tuning claim is that changing any of the universal constants changes everything, and this circuit is an example that this is not necessarily the case. As kairosfocus and many others here have done, we design circuits that tend to be stable and self-bias themselves to a narrow range of values that we wish to hold constant. If there is a designer of the universe he may have done the same. The fine-tuning argument is not valid since we ourselves manage to design systems that can accept a wide amount of leeway.Toronto
May 9, 2010
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toronto states: ;'For instance, a 1% drop in the speed of light might result in photons striking matter on Earth with less energy, but may also result in photons packed closer together in streams of particles, resulting in a larger amount of them striking their targets resulting in absolutely no change in energy transfer at all." And yet Dr Bradley directly addresses the fine tuning of light here: Fine Tuning Of Universal Constants, Particularly Light - Walter Bradley - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4491552 Visible light is also incredibly fine-tuned for life to exist. Though visible light is only a tiny fraction of the total electromagnetic spectrum coming from the sun, it happens to be the "most permitted" portion of the sun's spectrum allowed to filter through the our atmosphere. All the other bands of electromagnetic radiation, directly surrounding visible light, happen to be harmful to organic molecules, and are almost completely absorbed by the atmosphere. The tiny amount of harmful UV radiation, which is not visible light, allowed to filter through the atmosphere is needed to keep various populations of single cell bacteria from over-populating the world (Ross; reasons.org). The size of light's wavelengths and the constraints on the size allowable for the protein molecules of organic life, also seem to be tailor-made for each other. This "tailor-made fit" allows photosynthesis, the miracle of sight, and many other things that are necessary for human life. These specific frequencies of light (that enable plants to manufacture food and astronomers to observe the cosmos) represent less than 1 trillionth of a trillionth (10^-24) of the universe's entire range of electromagnetic emissions. Like water, visible light also appears to be of optimal biological utility (Denton; Nature's Destiny). Fine Tuning Of Light, Atmosphere, Biological Life, and Water - illustrations http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMTljaGh4MmdnOQ Further notes: GRBs Expand Astronomers' Toolbox - Nov. 2009 Excerpt: a detailed analysis of the GRB (Gamma Ray Burst) in question demonstrated that photons of all energies arrived at essentially the same time. Consequently, these results falsify any quantum gravity models requiring the simplest form of a frothy space. http://www.reasons.org/GRBsExpandAstronomersToolbox Anthropic Principle - God Created The Universe - Michael Strauss PhD. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4323661bornagain77
May 9, 2010
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Toronto,
Systems such as the universe are dynamic. We can’t treat it as a collection of static relationships between objects. If you change one characteristic, you have indirectly changed another.
Then the universe is static, not dynamic. For by your assessment, they wouldn't be called "constants" if they were dynamic, but they are indeed constant in reality, not dynamic. Which is part of the point, that they are how they are, and that they do not swing radically. Clive Hayden
May 9, 2010
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