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Guest Post: Constancy of Self in Light of Near Death Experiences – A Disproof of Materialism

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The following is a guest post be nkendall:

One of the striking things about our experience as conscious, thinking humans is how constant our sense of self–our identity–is. Never in my life has there been any suspension or change of my conscious sense of who I am other than during sleep. Throughout our lives our brains change considerably. A myriad of new synaptic connections are formed especially in the early years. Yet one’s identity is immutable. Aside from these ongoing modifications of the brain, there are catastrophic changes as well. Those who have experienced surgery under general anesthesia or suffered cardiac arrest have had their brains shut down and consciousness suspended even if only briefly. Near death experiences represent a more profound disruption of consciousness often involving complete cessation of detectable brain activity. Yet we know from countless surgeries conducted under general anesthesia and near death experiences that one’s consciousness, sense of self and mental faculties, i.e. memories, knowledge, beliefs, etc. are usually fully restored even in extreme cases following the event. Why is it that our sense of self is so constant even when the brain is subjected to change and catastrophic effects? What material causal processes in the brain could account for this constancy of self?

Near death experiences are dismissed by materialists as hallucinations resulting from a brain in distress; this despite the fact that many near death type experiences occur when the subject is not near death and even cases where multiple persons witness the events, i.e. “shared death experiences”. Nevertheless, materialists believe that by dismissing near death experiences as hallucinations they are safeguarding their materialist world view. The reality is that when materialists make this claim they are unwittingly embracing an explanation that disproves materialism. If the near death experiences are hallucinations, they cannot be hallucinations of a material brain, they can only be hallucinations of an immaterial mind. The reason is simple: the brain, being an electro-chemical computer in a sense, cannot possibly generate vast quantities of novel, continuous, unique, complex specified information spontaneously especially when it involves unearthly and ineffable visual and abstract mental content which accompany near death experiences. The brain cannot even account for the complex specified information we experience in our nightly dreams. It requires a callous disregard of reason to believe that a brain in distress could spontaneously produce an interactive audio-video experience, with the most real, unearthly and spectacular mental phenomena one has ever experienced. There are no material process that could account for this even in principle. Furthermore, out of body experiences associated with near death experiences, also dismissed as hallucinations by materialists, cannot be hallucinations if what the subject is experiencing is real and can be corroborated as such. And in fact several, and perhaps many, out of body experiences have been corroborated to some extent.

The last refuge of materialism is simply to dismiss near death experiences as a bunch of unverifiable anecdotes. The subjective nature of near death experiences and the timing as to when they actually occur, make it difficult to disprove materialism based on human testimony alone. Therefore, I want to take a different approach in order to disprove materialism with respect to near death experiences. I want to focus on the materialist claim that consciousness, one’s sense of self, along with memories, knowledge and beliefs could be restored by material processes unaided by an immaterial mind following a near death experience. First lets take a brief look at materialist claims about the brain.

Although it is not known or even imaginable how our mental experiences could be reducible to physical phenomena in the brain; nevertheless, that is what materialists believe. According to materialism, consciousness and all mental phenomena we experience are the result of complex molecular interactions in the brain. Since all mental phenomena involve time, there is a dynamic quality to them. If materialism is true then it has to be the case that precise and specific neural sequences of events underlie these mental phenomena. These sequences of events have to be precise and specific because there is an incalculable number of ways in which various thoughts, memories, beliefs and knowledge can be modified in just the slightest and nuanced ways. Imagine a memory, belief, insight, or bit of knowledge that you possess. Then think of the innumerable ways in which it can be slightly modified even in very subtle ways. Each version of these mental phenomena would have–must have if materialism is true–a slightly different underlying neural signature otherwise they would not be distinguishable from thoughts which were slightly different.

What would happen–what should happen–under a materialist accounting of mental phenomena, if the precise and specific causal sequences of events in the brain, from which all mental phenomena are purported to be derived, were disrupted in a catastrophic way? Many such cases have occurred. I want to focus on one well-known case involving a women named Pam Reynolds.

Pam Reynolds had a large aneurysm deep in the base of her brain. In order to remove the aneurysm, the medical team would have to use a procedure referred to as “standstill” whereby all molecular activity in her brain would be halted. To achieve this the doctors would have to chill her body and drain all the blood out of her brain. The surgery was a success. The surgeon removed the aneurysm, the medical staff warmed the blood and re-infused it back into her brain. They then resuscitated her which required a defibrillator. During the operation Pam Reynolds had many of the classic elements of a near death experience, including two out of body experiences, an trip through a dark tunnel with a bright light, a visit with deceased relatives and it appears a brief life review. Pam’s near death experience began while she was under deep general anesthesia and ended just prior to her resuscitation. She is reported to have said that her experience was continuous–uninterrupted–from the time of her first out of body experience in the operating room prior to “standstill” to her second out of body experience, also in the operating room, just prior to her resuscitation. This time period would include the time she was in “standstill.” Much of what she claims to have witnessed in the operating room during her first out of body experience, has been corroborated by the medical staff who were present in the operating room. I suppose skeptics can nitpick about a few things here and there. But in any case, if she was correct that the experience was continuous, then materialism and atheism can be relegated to the ash heap of history once and for all where they belong.

For the primary point I am making in this post, it really does not matter whether or not Pam Reynolds had the subjective experiences associated with near death experiences that she claims. Personally I have little doubt that she experienced what she claimed. What matters here is that her brain was entirely shut down with no molecular activity for about 45 minutes. She was effectively brain dead throughout “standstill.” This is known with certainty based on medical records. Yet when she was resuscitated, her consciousness, sense of self, memories and presumable all, or most all, mental capabilities were restored. That her sense of self and all other complex mental phenomena were restored, is an inference that can be made by watching interviews with her on Youtube and reading accounts of interviews with her. Just to cite one example, shortly after she regained consciousness, she recognized the Eagle’s song “Hotel California” and commented about a particular line in the song in a clever way to the attending physician. In order to do this, she would have to have been conscious, cognizant as to who she was and what had happened to her, recognized the song, understood the meaning of the lyrics and applied the meaning differently in a metaphorical way. All these mental phenomena are extraordinarily complex and would necessarily have extraordinarily complex material process underlying them if materialism is true.

In order to re-establish one’s consciousness, sense of self, beliefs, knowledge and memories and all associated mental capabilities following complete cessation of the brain, some prior set of conditions would have to have been re-established and resynchronized throughout the brain. But by what set of complex material causes could a prior set of conditions been preserved and re-established? And how could such a marvelous function have evolved in the first place? There could have been nothing like an orderly shutdown of her brain given the nature of the general anesthesia and the “standstill” process. There must have been countless molecular reactions interrupted, neuro-transmitters half built, aborted synapse firings, synaptic connections partially constructed as she transitioned through deep general anesthesia to “standstill” without any blood in her brain. The delicate balance of inter-dependencies that must have existed during her prior set of neural sequences of events would have been irreparably lost. There would be no conceivable way to restore the prior conditions to any sort of “known-good” state. Rather, a new set of “initial conditions” would have asserted themselves upon resuscitation and, given materialism’s strict bottom up causation, the sequence of molecular activity would continue to act in accordance with this new set of local causal sequences of events. But it would have been totally random as to which synapses within which neuron’s within which area of her brain would have come up first and begun operating. To gain just a hint of the complexity involved, imagine if you stored a computer’s boot loader, operating system and application programs in volatile memory and then pulled the power plug. What would you expect to happen when you plugged the power cord back in?

To think that the precise, specific set of complex brain processes that materialism alleges give rise to consciousness, one’s sense of self, memories, knowledge and beliefs could re-establish themselves, strictly through material causation following complete cessation of brain function, is an appeal to miracles but without any human testimony or empirical evidence to support them. Calculating the probabilities for the material causation required to bring about the necessary causal sequence of events to restore the same person cannot be done and is utterly pointless. The only reasonable conclusion is that there is some sort of immaterial quality we are endowed with–mind–that orchestrates the resumption of all the necessary brain functions to re-establish the person and all their accompanying mental faculties.

Comments
If you wanna see a complete annihilation of an atheist/materialist you need to listen to the skeptiko interview with atheist oxford educated ucsd professor of the philosophy of neuroscience patricia churchland . She got destroyed so bad that instead of answering the assertions aboit Nde's she ended up making a fool out of herself and hanging up on the interviewer not once but 3 times. This interview shows how blatantly ignorant and dishonest these people are at the academic level. Nde's are a major thorn in the atheist/materialists side http://youtu.be/7a6ZaivvCnEwallstreeter43
April 30, 2015
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as to this claim: "the disconnections of the hemispheres can result in the creation of separate selves (KeithS at TSZ has discussed this at length.)" actually that claim is false. There are not 'two selves' in split brain patients. Here is a personal testimony
Excerpt: BTW, with regards to your citation of the split-brain experiments (and people who suffer from that due to injury, etc). I was involved in one of those split-brain experiments myself. (Which is possible by temporarily numbing the corpus callosum.) And believe me, it was the damnedest thing. The thing is, even though different parts of my brain were acting as if they had no knowledge of “each other”, behind it all was still “me”, consciously experiencing the strange disconnection. https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/holy-rollers-pascals-wager-if-id-is-wrong-it-was-an-honest-mistake/#comment-460565
a more detailed refutation of the atheistic claim of 'two selves' in split brain patients is in the following video
The Case for the Soul: Refuting Physicalist Objections - video Computers vs. Qualia, Libet and 'Free won't', Split Brain (unified attention of brain despite split hemispheres, visual and motion information is shared between the two hemispheres despite the hemispheres being split), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB5TNrtu9Pk
of related interest is the first video from InspiringPhilosophy in which 'dual aspect' Idealism, instead of substance dualism, is established as true:
The Case for the Soul - InspiringPhilosophy - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70 The Mind is able to modify the brain. Moreover, ‘dual aspect’ Idealism explains all anomalous evidence of personality changes due to brain injury, whereas physicalism does not, indeed CAN NOT, explain mind.
also of related interest: If the mind of a person were merely the brain, as materialists hold, then if half of a brain were removed then a 'person' should only be ‘half the person’, or at least somewhat less of a 'person', as they were before, but that is not the case. The ‘whole person’ stays intact even though the brain suffers severe impairment:
Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies - Dr. Ben Carson - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zBrY77mBNg Dr. Gary Mathern - What Can You Do With Half A Brain? - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrKijBx_hAw Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics' Lives: - 1997 Excerpt: "We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child's personality and sense of humor,'' Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining,, Dr. John Freeman, the director of the Johns Hopkins Pediatric Epilepsy Center, said he was dumbfounded at the ability of children to regain speech after losing the half of the brain that is supposedly central to language processing. ''It's fascinating,'' Dr. Freeman said. ''The classic lore is that you can't change language after the age of 2 or 3.'' But Dr. Freeman's group has now removed diseased left hemispheres in more than 20 patients, including three 13-year-olds whose ability to speak transferred to the right side of the brain in much the way that Alex's did.,,, http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.html
In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study:
"Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications." Strange but True: When Half a Brain Is Better than a Whole One - May 2007 Excerpt: Most Hopkins hemispherectomy patients are five to 10 years old. Neurosurgeons have performed the operation on children as young as three months old. Astonishingly, memory and personality develop normally. ,,, Another study found that children that underwent hemispherectomies often improved academically once their seizures stopped. "One was champion bowler of her class, one was chess champion of his state, and others are in college doing very nicely," Freeman says. Of course, the operation has its downside: "You can walk, run—some dance or skip—but you lose use of the hand opposite of the hemisphere that was removed. You have little function in that arm and vision on that side is lost," Freeman says. Remarkably, few other impacts are seen. ,,, http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but-true-when-half-brain-better-than-whole
bornagain77
April 30, 2015
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NKendall:
Regarding cause and effect – The thought must arise first, correct?
No - I don’t think this is correct.
New thoughts arise all the time without the aid of a prior structural change in the brain facilitating it.
Again, I don’t think this is correct.
If this were not the case then no new thoughts would ever arise except by chance.
I disagree with this statement as well. Quite the reverse: rapid successions of complex, reentrant brain states, very likely involving the simultaneous operation of Broca’s and Wernicke’s areas, accompany and in part determine the creation of thoughts in a verbal modality. The temporal lobes mediate conceptual representations that become increasingly abstract as we move anteriorly. Activation of parietal and visual cortex accompany imagined body states and visual experiences. Limbic activation mediates fundamental emotional states (fear, attachment) and underwrites motivation and interest. And so forth.
If physical changes in the brain were required for learning, then how could you explain that we can learn so quickly?
Learning and memory are hierarchical and multifaceted. Some elements (sustaining the contents of working memory, acquiring and updating an immediate spatial map) are sustained by rapid functional activities, such as reentrant neural activity within the hippocampus and 40 hz synchronization/desynchronization within the cortex. Because they require active maintenance these functions are vulnerable to disruption. Hence the retro- and anterograde amnesia that can accompany traumatic brain injury. Others elements of memory, such as long term biographical memory - including the foundational representation of self and identity to which you refer - are thoroughly baked into the structure and networks of the cerebral cortex and persist despite interruptions brain function. Even at that level, profound structural disruptions, such as severing the corpus callosum, result in equally profound disruptions of the experience of a unitary self - the disconnections of the hemispheres can result in the creation of separate selves (KeithS at TSZ has discussed this at length.) As if that weren't enough, positing a further immaterial author of those activities has zero explanatory power.Reciprocating Bill
April 30, 2015
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I am YEC but disagree that there are near death experiences. the bible is clear that abscent from the body means present with the lord for Christians. It is not the brain that shuts down. There is no brain. Thats just a interpretation of complex things in the skull. it is the memory that is the important thing. The memory is the brain I say. these people simply use their memory, awake or not, and create these floating over the body things. Pete townscend, THE who, had it during a drug experience. Not deadish at all. its no big deal. The memory would not be affected by any operation. its powerful and doesn't shut down by mans efforts. By the way in order to see ones body laying there requires all the memories of what things look like and spave and distance. Yes I believe the soul takes its memories with it to the afterlife BUT there is no evidence the soul has memorized the material world as we know it. Tes we have souls but NOPE its not floating about. god doesn't let it. in fact it must separate from the memory machine called the brain. its just the glory of the human ,memory. sorry folks.Robert Byers
April 30, 2015
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Thank you so much Mr. Bornagain77 for the information. You are a source of great insight and resources. I am familiar with much of what you have provided but not all. I will take a look when I have a chance.nkendall
April 30, 2015
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Thus Vicky Noratuk’s testimony that she was ”a body of energy, or of light’ during her NDE finds strong support from our present scientific evidence for biophotonics in our material bodies. Of related interest: Regardless of how much energy we pour into a particle of matter, we can never ‘push’ the particle of matter to the higher dimension of the speed of light:
Question: If a particle with rest-mass were to, in theory, travel at the speed of light, would its mass actually be infinite, or just very, very, very, large, just like it would supposedly take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate the particle to the speed of light in the first place? How can you calculate this? Answer 4: A particle with non-zero rest-mass cannot be accelerated to the speed of light. Put in other terms, the energy of a moving particle with rest-mass m equals E=(r-1)mc2, where the factor r=1/sqrt(1-(v/c)2), with v the speed of the particle and c the speed of light. You can use this formula in an Excel sheet to try different values of rest-mass m and speed v. This equation tells you that you need an infinite amount of energy to accelerate a particle to (exactly) the speed of light, however, you can always take it to, say 99.99999% the speed of light with a finite (but huge) amount of energy. http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=1571 “By special relativity, the energy needed to accelerate a particle (with mass) grow super-quadratically when the speed is close to c, and is infinite when it is c. Since you can’t supply infinite energy to the particle, it is not possible to get (a particle with mass) to 100% c.”
Verse and Music:
Mark 8:36-37 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? The Police – Spirits in the Material World http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq0KW-_48Cc&feature=player_detailpage#t=62s
bornagain77
April 30, 2015
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This higher dimension, ‘eternal’, inference for the time framework of light is also warranted, by logic, because light is not ‘frozen within time’, i.e. light appears to move to us in our temporal framework of time, yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light. The only way this is possible is if light is indeed of a higher dimensional value of time than our temporal time is otherwise it would simply be ‘frozen in time’. Another line of evidence that supports the inference that ‘tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday’, at the ‘eternal’ speed of light, is visualizing what would happen if a hypothetical observer were to approach the speed of light. Please note, at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, (Of note: This following video was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer.).
Approaching The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQnHTKZBTI4
And we have testimonies from Near Death Experiences testifying to these ‘higher dimensional attributes’ that are witnessed in Special Relativity. Specifically, we have testimony for both the ‘eternal’ attribute and the ‘tunnel’ attribute of Special Relativity. Here is testimony from Near Death Experiencers experiencing the ‘eternal’ attribute of special relativity:
‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’ - Kimberly Clark Sharp – NDE Experiencer ‘There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.’ - John Star – NDE Experiencer ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’ In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video https://vimeo.com/92172680
And here is testimony from Near Death Experiencers experiencing the ‘tunnel’ attribute of special relativity:
“Very often as they’re moving through the tunnel, there’s a very bright mystical light … not like a light we’re used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns…” - Jeffrey Long M.D. – has studied NDE’s extensively “I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.” Barbara Springer – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel – video https://vimeo.com/79072924 Life After Life – Raymond Moody – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z56u4wMxNlg
Vicky Noratuk's, who is physically blind, ‘tunnel’ testimony is interesting to look at because her testimony also includes testimony of her being ‘a body of energy, or of light’:
“I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact. I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!” – Vicki’s NDE – Blind since birth – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KhcCS5-Y
Many other NDEers also testify to being a 'body of light'. But do we have scientific evidence that humans can be ”a body of energy, or of light’? The answer to that question is, surprisingly, yes! Yes, we do now have scientific evidence that humans can be ‘beings of light’:
Are humans really beings of light? Excerpt: “We now know, today, that man is essentially a being of light.”,,, “There are about 100,000 chemical reactions happening in every cell each second. The chemical reaction can only happen if the molecule which is reacting is excited by a photon… Once the photon has excited a reaction it returns to the field and is available for more reactions… We are swimming in an ocean of light.” http://viewzone2.com/dna.html The Real Bioinformatics Revolution – Proteins and Nucleic Acids ‘Singing’ to One Another? Excerpt: the molecules send out specific frequencies of electromagnetic waves which not only enable them to ‘see’ and ‘hear’ each other, as both photon and phonon modes exist for electromagnetic waves, but also to influence each other at a distance and become ineluctably drawn to each other if vibrating out of phase (in a complementary way).,,, More than 1 000 proteins from over 30 functional groups have been analysed. Remarkably, the results showed that proteins with the same biological function share a single frequency peak while there is no significant peak in common for proteins with different functions; furthermore the characteristic peak frequency differs for different biological functions. ,,, The same results were obtained when regulatory DNA sequences were analysed. http://www.i-sis.org.uk/TheRealBioinformaticsRevolution.php
You can see an actual picture of humans emitting the weak ‘biophotonic’ light here:
Strange! Humans Glow in Visible Light – Charles Q. Choi – July 22, 2009 Schematic illustration of experimental setup that found the human body, especially the face, emits visible light in small quantities that vary during the day. B is one of the test subjects. The other images show the weak emissions of visible light during totally dark conditions. The chart corresponds to the images and shows how the emissions varied during the day. The last image (I) is an infrared image of the subject showing heat emissions. http://i.livescience.com/images/i/000/006/481/original/090722-body-glow-02.jpg?1296086873
Moreover, this light coming from the human body is found to a emitted by a quantum process, it is not emitted by a classical process:
Photocount distribution of photons emitted from three sites of a human body – 2006 Excerpt: Signals from three representative sites of low, intermediate and high intensities are selected for further analysis. Fluctuations in these signals are measured by the probabilities of detecting different numbers of photons in a bin. The probabilities have non-classical features and are well described by the signal in a quantum squeezed state of photons. Measurements with bins of three sizes yield same values of three parameters of the squeezed state. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16520060
bornagain77
April 30, 2015
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,,, zero time lag neuronal synchrony despite long conduction delays - 2008 Excerpt: Multielectrode recordings have revealed zero time lag synchronization among remote cerebral cortical areas. However, the axonal conduction delays among such distant regions can amount to several tens of milliseconds. It is still unclear which mechanism is giving rise to isochronous discharge of widely distributed neurons, despite such latencies,,, Remarkably, synchrony of neuronal activity is not limited to short-range interactions within a cortical patch. Interareal synchronization across cortical regions including interhemispheric areas has been observed in several tasks (7, 9, 11–14).,,, Beyond its functional relevance, the zero time lag synchrony among such distant neuronal ensembles must be established by mechanisms that are able to compensate for the delays involved in the neuronal communication. Latencies in conducting nerve impulses down axonal processes can amount to delays of several tens of milliseconds between the generation of a spike in a presynaptic cell and the elicitation of a postsynaptic potential (16). The question is how, despite such temporal delays, the reciprocal interactions between two brain regions can lead to the associated neural populations to fire in unison (i.e. zero time lag).,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2575223/
The following paper appeals to a ‘non-local’, (i.e. beyond space and time), cause to try to explain the synchronization in neural circuits,,,
Nonlocal mechanism for cluster synchronization in neural circuits – 2011 Excerpt: The findings,,, call for reexamining sources of correlated activity in cortex,,, http://arxiv.org/abs/1103.3634
Materialists would hold that this 'non-local', beyond space and time, quantum entanglement/information would simply disappear from our material body upon the death of our temporal/material bodies. But, contrary to what atheists would prefer to believe beforehand, it is found that quantum entanglement/information is, in fact, 'conservered':
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_no-deleting_theorem#Consequence
But where does this 'conserved' quantum information that cannot be destroyed, and that is in our material bodies, go upon the death of our material bodies? Well Theists hold that your soul either goes to the higher, eternal, dimension of heaven or to hell. Some people may think we have no evidence for higher dimensions above this one. They would be wrong in that presupposition. Although higher dimensions are invisible to our 3-dimensional sight,,,
This following video gets this ‘we are blind to higher dimensions’ point across quite clearly: Dr. Quantum in Flatland – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5yxZ5I-zsE&feature=player_detailpage#t=25 of note: The preceding video is the lead off video on the outreach page of Dr. Anton Zeilinger’s quantum group in Vienna: https://vcq.quantum.at/outreach/multimedia/videos.html
Although higher dimensions are invisible to a 3-dimensional sight, we have far more evidence for a higher dimension(s) above this one than we have for the infinite universes that are conjectured by materialists to try to get around the theistic implications of the fine-tuning for this universe. In physics we find two very different higher dimensional ‘eternities’ just as Theism has held for millennia. An orderly eternity associated with Special Relativity and a destructive eternity associated with General Relativity. In the following, I will focus on the eternity associated with Special Relativity. One higher dimensional eternity in physics is found ‘if’ a hypothetical observer were to accelerate to the speed of light. In this scenario, time, as we understand it, would come to a complete stop for the hypothetical observer. To grasp the whole ‘time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2.
Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity – ‘thought experiment’ – video https://vimeo.com/93101738 “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.” Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest – 2005
Some may think that time, as we understand it, coming to a complete stop at the speed of light is pure science fiction, but, as incredible as it sounds, Einstein’s famous thought experiment has many lines of evidence now supporting it.
Velocity time dilation tests http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Velocity_time_dilation_tests “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.” Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12
This following confirmation of time dilation is my favorite since they have actually caught time dilation on film: (of note: light travels approximately 1 foot in a nanosecond (billionth of a second) whilst the camera used in the experiment takes a trillion pictures a second):
Amazing — light filmed at 1,000,000,000,000 Frames/Second! – video (so fast that at 9:00 Minute mark of video you can briefly see the time dilation effect of relativity caught on film!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_9vd4HWlVA
bornagain77
April 30, 2015
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nkendall, in regards to 'Constancy of Self', it might interest to know that that there are at least six “conditions of mind”, including 'Persistence of Self-Identity', that are irreconcilable with materialism:
The Mind and Materialist Superstition – Six “conditions of mind” that are irreconcilable with materialism: Michael Egnor, professor of neurosurgery at SUNY, Stony Brook Excerpt: Intentionality,,, Qualia,,, Persistence of Self-Identity,,, Restricted Access,,, Incorrigibility,,, Free Will,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/the_mind_and_materialist_super.html
Detective J. Warner Wallace, author of the best-selling book 'Cold Case Christianity', uses these six properties of mind, in conjunction with the law of identity, to prove that the mind is not the same thing as the brain:
podcast and summary - Six reasons why you should believe in non-physical minds – podcast and summary (Law of Identity: 6 properties of mind that are not identical to properties of the brain, thus the mind is not the brain) http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2014/01/30/six-reasons-why-you-should-believe-in-non-physical-minds/
Alvin Plantinga, using the 'modal argument', and by imagining that his body could possibly be a 'beetle body', has a humorous way of getting this ‘Law of Identity’ point across:
Alvin Plantinga and the Modal Argument (for the existence of the mind/soul) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOTn_wRwDE0
Moreover, besides airtight philosophical arguments for the reality of mind, due to advances in science, we now also have excellent empirical evidence for the reality of mind and soul. The following video shows, completely contrary to 'bottom up' materialistic thought, that the mind is able to have pronounced effects on the structure of the brain (i.e. brain plasticity).
The Case for the Soul - InspiringPhilosophy - (4:03 minute mark, Brain Plasticity including Schwartz's work) - Oct. 2014 - video The Mind is able to modify the brain (brain plasticity). Moreover, Idealism explains all anomalous evidence of personality changes due to brain injury, whereas physicalism cannot explain mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70
Moreover, besides effecting the structure of the brain, i.e. to effect brain plasticity, the mind is also, through a technique the researchers term 'mindfulness', now shown to have the ability to reach all the way down to the molecular level of our temporal/material bodies and effect the expression of our genes:
Scientists Finally Show How Your Thoughts Can Cause Specific Molecular Changes To Your Genes, - December 10, 2013 Excerpt: “To the best of our knowledge, this is the first paper that shows rapid alterations in gene expression within subjects associated with mindfulness meditation practice,” says study author Richard J. Davidson, founder of the Center for Investigating Healthy Minds and the William James and Vilas Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. “Most interestingly, the changes were observed in genes that are the current targets of anti-inflammatory and analgesic drugs,” says Perla Kaliman, first author of the article and a researcher at the Institute of Biomedical Research of Barcelona, Spain (IIBB-CSIC-IDIBAPS), where the molecular analyses were conducted.,,, the researchers say, there was no difference in the tested genes between the two groups of people at the start of the study. The observed effects were seen only in the meditators following mindfulness practice. In addition, several other DNA-modifying genes showed no differences between groups, suggesting that the mindfulness practice specifically affected certain regulatory pathways. http://www.tunedbody.com/scientists-finally-show-thoughts-can-cause-specific-molecular-changes-genes/
Needless to say, this is NOT what materialism would expect or predict whereas in Theism it is expected for mind to have such deep causal power. Also of related interest to empirical evidence for the soul/mind, it is now found that transcendent, and ‘conserved’, (cannot be created or destroyed), ‘non-local’, (beyond space-time matter-energy), quantum entanglement/information, which is not reducible to matter-energy space-time, is now found in our material bodies on a massive scale (in every DNA and protein molecule).
Quantum entanglement holds together life’s blueprint – 2010 Excerpt: When the researchers analysed the DNA without its helical structure, they found that the electron clouds were not entangled. But when they incorporated DNA’s helical structure into the model, they saw that the electron clouds of each base pair became entangled with those of its neighbours. “If you didn’t have entanglement, then DNA would have a simple flat structure, and you would never get the twist that seems to be important to the functioning of DNA,” says team member Vlatko Vedral of the University of Oxford. http://neshealthblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/15/quantum-entanglement-holds-together-lifes-blueprint/ Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA – short video https://vimeo.com/92405752 Classical and Quantum Information Channels in Protein Chain - Dj. Koruga, A. Tomi?, Z. Ratkaj, L. Matija - 2006 Abstract: Investigation of the properties of peptide plane in protein chain from both classical and quantum approach is presented. We calculated interatomic force constants for peptide plane and hydrogen bonds between peptide planes in protein chain. On the basis of force constants, displacements of each atom in peptide plane, and time of action we found that the value of the peptide plane action is close to the Planck constant. This indicates that peptide plane from the energy viewpoint possesses synergetic classical/quantum properties. Consideration of peptide planes in protein chain from information viewpoint also shows that protein chain possesses classical and quantum properties. So, it appears that protein chain behaves as a triple dual system: (1) structural - amino acids and peptide planes, (2) energy - classical and quantum state, and (3) information - classical and quantum coding. Based on experimental facts of protein chain, we proposed from the structure-energy-information viewpoint its synergetic code system. http://www.scientific.net/MSF.518.491
Moreover, the quantum entanglement is found to be in the brain. Yet, in contrast to the material/temporal body, the quantum entanglement in the brain is found to be much more 'spread out' that it is in the material body:
Quantum Entangled Consciousness – Life After Death – Stuart Hameroff – video http://vimeo.com/39982578
bornagain77
April 30, 2015
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News @ 22 People who have NDEs sometimes report verifiable information when there is no electrical activity in their brain and some of these verifiable reports are of things they could not perceive with their normal senses even if they were conscious. How can you copy that from someone else? Materialist explanation of NDE's do not explain the anomalies of the phenomenon. To fully understand the phenomenon you have to read the full accounts of what people experience: http://www.near-death.com/notable.html It is much harder to explain away the phenomenon if you understand exactly what people are experiencing. This is why so many of the doctors who study NDEs, after initial skepticism, become convinced NDEs are evidence of the afterlife because of what they hear when interviewing patients.Jim Smith
April 30, 2015
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Some years ago, I was a guest at a wedding in western Canada. I live some thousands of kilometres east of the venue. A guest seated beside me asked what I did for a living. I said I wrote popular science; a recent book of which I was co-author argued for the existence of the soul. Somehow, we got talking about near-death experiences. He, a middle-aged man, commented that he had had one. He said he had had a heart attack, and suddenly became aware of himself looking *down* at the paramedics trying to revive him. He heard them say, "He's going, he's going ..." but they persisted anyway. He ended up - he says - back in his body, and at that time, waiting with me for our turn at the beef n' beans. Apparently, the paramedics HAD said that. They had thought they would lose him. Well, I don't know. I hear stories. Do they sound similar because people are copying each other or because, as great physicists have said, consciousness is immaterial? In which case, we might expect such things.News
April 30, 2015
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Hello drc466, Regarding your Comments in #10, Yes it is "technically possible to design and build a computer that has the characteristics you cite in your article" with a few important caveats. Computers do in fact store data and preserve it through non-volatile memory as I stated. That decision and all others related to the creation of computers was accomplished by humans. Humans are intelligent, they can design things from the top down in a thoughtful way. But the brain is suppose to have evolved by chance processes according to materialism so it would have not way of designing any complex feature that would seem to require foresight. That the brain stores things in non-volatile memory is an inference you are making because you know that things like resumption of memories and thought occurs following near death experiences, cardiac arrest, etc. So in a sense I think at least some of what you are saying is begging the question. I do not agree that the brain alone can do these things; that was the point of my post. Secondly, computers do not think in the sense that we do. Only by greatly diminishing the meaning of the term "think" could you claim that computers think. They store data, crunch through algorithms and for the most part produce a deterministic output which could always have been predicted by the programmer in theory. Computers store words and can search through text to match things but they do not understand the words they store. People understand things and store knowledge through thought and memory. But humans do much more than just store symbolic things like words. The demonstration of this is that the same words whether in poem, prayer or prose, mean different things to different people but are treated identically by a computer. If symbolic things like words were all that was necessary to comprehend then learning would be reduced to rote. Computers store pictures and video as well but they have no clue about the content. Notice that a human is always required to interpret the meaning of the symbolic content that computers store. The fact that a computer (programmed by humans) can beat humans in chess is unimpressive. I am surprised it took a team of programmers and chess champions as consultants, as long as it did to beat the best humanity has to offer. I know there is a lot of buzz about a "singularity" from people who should know better, e.g. Bill Gates, Steven Hawking. This just reveals one of two things: 1) how strong the grip of materialism has become through the brain washing one is subjected to in the university environment or 2) that there is a fine line between genius and idiocy. Noam Chomsky calls the singularity "science fiction." I agree with him, and that might be the only thing I agree with Noam Chomsky on. The other aspect to all this is that you have to account for the origin of all this marvelous abstract thought that we humans are endowed with. Invoking evolutionary explanations that go back to the Cambrian are not valid--and would not help anyway. You have very few hominids to amortize the necessary magical mystery mutations that are presumed by materialists to give rise to higher abstract thought. We may be talking about a couple billion individuals over 5 million years leading to the advent of Cro-Magnon man. That is the blink of an eye given the capabilities of human thought. Just to wrap up, your questions: "what part of your (my) description of an NDE event (and I can add, any human thought for that matter) above do you feel could NOT be duplicated by a machine?" My response is: thinking, loving, wishing, caring, sacrificing, worrying, hoping, longing, despairing, entreaty, consoling, sympathizing, contentedness, certainty, anger, jealously, envy, selfishness, hatred, analysis, imagining, creating, composing, writing poetry and novels, sculpting, painting, drawing, lusting after and...well it would be easy to cite the things that both humans and computers have in common: both humans and computers can add numbers; computers can do it much faster but they know not what they do.nkendall
April 30, 2015
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Hello Mr. Frank, (comment #6) nice to meet you. The purpose of my post was not to rehash the Pam Reynolds case. I was primarily asking how person-hood, and all that goes with it, could have persisted though a complete shut down of the brain and then a resuscitation. Mr. Bornagain77 has adequately responded to much of this, so I will make my response at least somewhat brief. I have read the critique by Woerlee of course. Pam was in fact taken to standstill where all the blood was drained out of her head unless all other accounts that I have read are part of a vast urban myth. They had to do this because of the size and location of the aneurysm. So all molecular activity was halted. The point Mr. Woerlee is trying hard to make through tortured logic is that, perhaps she could have had the entire near death experience before she was put into standstill. The near death experience did start when she was under general anesthesia, prior to standstill. That is known (assuming you believe her story) because she described what was going on as she watched from above and her statements correlated with the medical records. I think Woerlee, like others who dismiss out of body experiences and near death experiences as hallucinations, are confusing out of body illusions with what are (this is the question) real time out of body experiences that many hundreds of near death experiencers have testified to. The mind (not the brain) can produce some marvelously creative motion video; dreams for example. I think it is impossible that a physical brain could produce these (see my previous post). But these come from the mind's imagination; people do not dream about something that is really happening at that moment in time. And if they did, it would be another demonstration that materialism was false. I do not see how, without positing an immaterial mind, one's eyes could be disembodied then render, in the distant physical brain, a real time view of what was really going on. Furthermore, as I mentioned in the post, Ms. Reynolds indicated that her experience was continuous from the first out of body experience during anesthesia to her second out of body experience just prior to being resuscitated. This would of course include the time she was in standstill. There is a time anchor during her second out of body experience as well as the first out of body experience (where her statements and descriptions were corroborated). The second time anchor was that she is reported to have said she saw her body jump just before she was instructed to jump back into it. The most likely and consistent explanation for this is that her body jumped as a result of the defibrillation attempts during resuscitation. So one would have to explain how on earth it is possible to have very similar types out of body experiences involving the same people both prior to standstill and after standstill, (unless the claim is that the non-out of body experience portion of the near death experience occurred after standstill, but then the explanation gets further muddied). I am not sure what your view on this is but I suppose if you really want to be a materialist you could believe that the body jumping could have been something else and not the defibrillation. In this case maybe the near death experience ended prior to standstill. Even that is not that clear cut though. The accounts of this in the various books are not clear. I suppose that she could have been lucky and guessed what the saw used to cut her skull looked like and the way the operating room looked. I suppose with 100dB clicks in her tapped shut ears she could somehow have heard a women speak. I suppose that the out of body experiences that so many others have experienced could be hallucinations where the imagination just happens to correspond with reality. I suppose she and many hundreds if not thousands of persons who have related similar accounts during a close encounter with death (and even not when close to death such as shared death experiences) are all just making this stuff up. But boy, that is a very fragile set of denials to hang one's ideological hat on, especially if one fancies themselves as a skeptic. In that case, I would simply tip my hat and say God Bless and best regards.nkendall
April 30, 2015
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Carp:"At death, there would be no power to run the physical and logical processes required to break connections between neurons and so I think it would be possible to be clinically dead for a period shorter than the time required for cell death and come back with an intact self." This is excellent what you have written but there is one problem, I think. What if, and I think some individuals very keen on OOL may suspect it, there is energy undetectable to us that sustains and provides life? Why can't supposedly intelligent scientists recreate life or even sustain it? Why?KevNick
April 30, 2015
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Hi Bill, Regarding your comment #4 I may not fully understand your point so correct me if I have misunderstood. I think it is possible that there is some confusion between cause and effect, between structure and function and between necessary causation and sufficient causation. Regarding cause and effect - The thought must arise first, correct? New thoughts arise all the time without the aid of a prior structural change in the brain facilitating it. If this were not the case then no new thoughts would ever arise except by chance--maybe that is what you believe? New insights occur on the fly, then they are stored and then perhaps the physiological connections are made or existing connections strengthened through neuro-plasticity to reinforce or to allow for a more expeditious recall. If physical changes in the brain were required for learning, then how could you explain that we can learn so quickly? I coach girls softball. I explain something to them and they get it right away. No time for any new connections to be built in the brain. Sometimes I use analogies. Analogies make associations to other knowledge and memories which have associations with other knowledge and memories. Therefore, almost immediately there are a vast number of new "virtual" hyperlinks to other memories created when we learn. How could it be the case that structural changes--physical hyperlinks in the brain--are required for all these new mental "virtual" hyperlinks between knowledge and memories? Regarding structure and function - Thought is dynamic. Thoughts have a temporal quality; they take time to unfold. So thinking must involve events not just structure. I understand that the structures are left intact even following standstill but it is the events, these precise patterns of neurons firing--a process--that needs to be explained. The software not the hardware. Neuron firings are caused by a complex cascade of events--a chain of antecedent causation. Disruption of that chain of causation should produce a different result if materialism is true. Yet we know that all one's mental capabilities including consciousness itself, sense of self, ability to think, one's knowledge, behavior, memories, beliefs are restored following massive, catastrophic disruption to a vast set of causative chains of events in the brain. There is no magic reset button to re-establish the initial conditions across 100 billion neurons and there synapses. Regarding necessary and sufficient causation - The fact that we witness events in the brain when we acquire knowledge does not mean that these events cause the acquisition of knowledge or are required for the acquisition of knowledge. Sorry for the hasty response, I am out of time...I hope I did not misunderstand you. Before I go though, although I won't ask you to explain how all this marvelous abstract thought could have evolved throughout the brief tenure of hominids, I will ask you how thought and especially abstract thought and memories are represented in brain and how they are registered in one's consciousness.nkendall
April 30, 2015
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Barry:
So when you say “we know . . .” do you mean we actually know? Or, as is so often the case with materialists, do you mean, “we assume because it is the only assumption consonant with our metaphysics”? If the former, how exactly do we know such a thing?
It's the former, knowledge derived from decades of empirical neuroscience stimulated by Donald Hebb's 1949 book, extending through the discovery of long term potentiation in the 1960s, the development of techniques such as single unit recording, and so on.Reciprocating Bill
April 30, 2015
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Here's how Grof puts it and it should be apparent why the NDE's and similar experiences of non-ordinary states are normal, beneficial aspect of existence and perceived as threats to materialists and their worldview: "The individual comes to realize, through these [perinatal] experiences, that no matter what he does in his life, he cannot escape the inevitable; he will have to leave this world bereft of everything that he has accumulated and achieved and to which he has been emotionally attached. The similarity between birth and death-the startling realization that the beginning of life is the same as its end-is the major philosophical issue that accompanies the perinatal experiences. The other important consequence of the shocking emotional and physical encounter with the phenomenon of death is the opening up of areas of spiritual and religious experiences that appear to be an intrinsic part of the human personality and are independent of the individual's cultural and religious background and programming. In my experience, everyone who has reached these levels develops convincing insights into the utmost relevance of the spiritual and religious dimensions in the universal scheme of things. Even hard-core materialists, positively oriented scientists, skeptics and cynics, and uncompromising Marxist philosophers suddenly became interested in a spiritual search after they confronted these levels in themselves. "groovamos
April 30, 2015
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KN: Or that humans can hallucinate .... There are drugs out there that have similar if not the same effect. Since the use of psychotropic substances for the study of mental health and mental illness is a serious study topic of yours truly since 1977 with my first reading of Grof and others, trust me, the quoted assertions are quite naive. If the contributor knew anything about the topic, he would know that the terms "hallucination" and "same effect" are slippery terms that lose explanatory utility when the clinical use of psychedelics is explored. When misuse of the psychedelics is undertaken, in other words in inappropriate settings, the aesthetic prelude to the normal psychic unfolding process is corrupted. And so the subject can interpret that which makes sense in the proper setting as that which has no utility and no sense in improper settings. Sometimes it can be misinterpreted as insanity and the subject can even remain with this interpretation and be imprisoned by it for the long term. The above contributor's words indicate naivete in the sense of psychedelics having a psychological effect, when in truth these substances are content neutral. And so they do not bring content to the awareness, and as such are not content specific, having no psychic content. And the fact of their utility in obliterating mental illness should further cement my argument, as the subjects who experience the so induced mental progress do not identify their experiences as "hallucinations". This even as what they report in many cases is parallel to the NDE reports. This is all made plain by extensive study of the literature on these substances, which most materialists do not undertake for obvious reasons unless they are in a position to jettison their worldview which can be difficult, even painful. But it is what they have created, such is the power of the mind to create even delusions.groovamos
April 30, 2015
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I see this post as very valid. I say only this -- I take a pill that gives me a very active dream life. My experience as a dreamer is that I never loose my sense of self even in my dreams.bFast
April 30, 2015
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Frank at 6 cites Woerlee to try question the credibility of Reynold's NDE account.
Near death, explained - New science is shedding light on what really happens during out-of-body experiences — with shocking results. - (defence of Pam Reynolds's NDE) - Mario Beauregard – 2012 http://www.salon.com/2012/04/21/near_death_explained/
An atheist named Woerlee tried to attack the credibility of Dr. Beauregard's timeline of events for Pam Reynold's NDE. Here is a technical defence of Dr. Beauregard's timeline from that attack:
Reply to Woerlee’s Rejoinder on the Pam Reynolds Case – Chris Carter (2012 or 2013) Excerpt: In summary, I agree with the assessment of this case by neuroscientist Mario Beauregard,, http://www.merkawah.nl/public_html/images/stories/ccvsgwrepr.pdf Response to “Could Pam Reynolds Hear?” Stuart Hameroff, M.D. Response to “Could Pam Reynolds Hear?” Chris Carter, P.P.E., M.A.
For those who cannot afford the $16, here is a brief outline of the main points of the debate between Woerlee and Carter in the IANDs magazine: http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2012/05/click-on-this.html Judge for yourself whether Woerlee was overly dogmatic Here is a short defence of Pam's NDE https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/stephen-hawking-says-intelligent-design-of-the-universe-is-highly-probable/#comment-553744 Moreover, Woerlee, the atheist who attacked the credibility of Pam Reynold's NDE, is shown to be grasping for straws in trying to 'explain away' NDEs:
Near-Death Experience Skeptics Running Out of Excuses Excerpt: As to her amazing near-death experience during which she left her body and was able to look down on medical stuff during their frantic attempt to revive her, Woerlee offered this explanation, “…she hears the conversations. She feels the sensations. And she also is a woman who also has seen films and she knows how these things go. She hears the conversations, why? Because she is awake. That does not surprise me.” Dr. Woerlee’s claims contradict the accounts of medical staff on the scene. They indicated she was clinically dead, “what we call sheet-faced”, and under heavy anesthesia making it medically impossible for her to have a consciousness memory of the experience. http://www.salon.com/2012/04/21/near_death_explained/ Alex and Dr. Jeffrey Long debunks Woerlee’s anesthesia awareness hypothesis here: Excerpt: ”Dr. Jeffrey Long: That’s a really good point. I agree with everything you said, Alex, and there’s even more. In fact, if you look at the book, Evidence of the Afterlife, on pages 103 to 104, I talk directly about this so-called anesthetic-awareness that Dr. Woerlee discusses. As an overview, let me say that these anesthetic-awareness experiences are so very, very rare that I hope this never dissuades anybody from having medically appropriate general anesthesia. Please don’t let any of the discussion here be an issue in preventing appropriate medical care. As I say in the book, and this is a direct quote, “Rather than the type of coherent NDEs you read here, anesthetic-awareness results in a totally different experience.” And I provide a number of references on that, by the way, for interested listeners. I go on to say, “Those who experience anesthetic-awareness often report very unpleasant, painful and frightening experiences. Unlike NDEs which are predominantly visual experiences, this partial awakening during anesthesia more often involves brief and fragmented experiences that may involve hearing but usually not vision.” Again, I emphasize that anesthetic-awareness is very rare under anesthesia. By the way, I’m not aware of any near-death experiences that occurred under general anesthesia on the NDERF website that described the typical content of anesthetic-awareness experiences. Dr. Woerlee brings up a few anecdotal discussions about anesthetic-awareness but I have a number of references. These are the scholarly people that have actually studied a number of anesthetic-awareness experiences and published them in peer-reviewed journals in the past. That’s my source of that. As all of your listeners can easily see, you just don’t have near-death experiences that are predominantly hearing but no vision. You don’t essentially ever have near-death experiences that involve brief, fragmented experiences that are painful or frightening. In fact, none of the general anesthesia near-death experiences that I reviewed had any of those components of them. Really, there’s no doubt about that. These are completely different experiences. That being anesthetic-awareness and near-death experiences. I don’t think Dr. Woerlee quite got that point how clear that was; how crystal clear the distinction between those two types of experiences is.”” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/stephen-hawking-says-intelligent-design-of-the-universe-is-highly-probable/#comment-553792
bornagain77
April 30, 2015
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Brains are effectively behaving like FLASH memory in computers. In order to program or erase FLASH, power is used. If it is not explicitly erased, ( with a cost in energy ), the FLASH preserves its bit configuration. That's why turning off a computer for days does not change the software code and data in the FLASH. When the computer is turned on again, the FLASH will be intact and will reboot the OS which is then loaded and run from RAM memory which does get mangled when the power is removed and thus needs to be re-initialized. The brain seems to mimic the workings of FLASH memory and not RAM and therefore it should retain its configuration. At death, there would be no power to run the physical and logical processes required to break connections between neurons and so I think it would be possible to be clinically dead for a period shorter than the time required for cell death and come back with an intact self.Carpathian
April 30, 2015
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I'm not exactly sure what near death experiences actually reveal or prove? That there is life after death? That humans have a soul that survives after death? Or that humans can hallucinate as their body functions--especially brain functions--subside? There are drugs out there that have similar if not the same effect.KevNick
April 30, 2015
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So, I tried to post this earlier, and it apparently didn't go through - my apologies if this ends up a double post. Quoting myself:
So, as a disclaimer, I am not a materialist. However, I am always willing to play devil's advocate (oops, materialists don't believe in the devil - Dawkin's advocate maybe?), so I'm curious - how would you deal with this response: It is technically possible to design and build a computer that has the characteristics you cite in your article. In your computer example, you are careful to state that all functions exist in "volatile" memory, but a materialist description of the brain would certainly include sections of non-volatile memory. So - we could build a computer (brain) that runs a simple program (thinks), and while it does so captures its state real-time in non-volatile memory (remembers). If we pull the plug on the computer (anesthesia, sleep, cessation of brain activity), the on-going process (thinking) is killed, but the state-capture (memory) still retains an image of where the computer was (last thoughts). Upon plugging the computer back in (brain activity restarts), the computer checks its volatile instruction pointer (last thought position), recognizes that it has been reset (stopped thinking), and dynamically reloads its last state image (resets the brain to where it was before it went to sleep). It then continues on its way (thinks) as if nothing had happened. There is also some new data (memories) in the volatile ram (short-term memory) that get auto-generated as part of the reboot process (brain reset), to fill in empty spaces that are based on previous data storage (old memories, life experiences), which gradually and partially gets integrated into the on-going state machine (long-term memory and realtime thought mapping). So - it is certainly possible to design and build a computer that would mimic the NDE behavior of a brain. And we clearly don't impart any type of "soul" or "self" to such a device. So what are the weaknesses of this materialist response? IOW - what part of your description of an NDE event above do you feel could NOT be duplicated by a machine? Or what capabilities exist in computers that you feel could NOT exist in the brain? Again, let me clarify strongly that I am not a materialist, and have my own ideas about a response - but I would definitely be interested in hearing yours and others.
Update: Re Andre - the brain obviously has self-repairing RAID drives holding the memory and in-process state backup. As cells die and are replaced, a self-repairing process repopulates the correct data to the cells from the live backup (again - a materialist response). Update 2: If any materialists feel I am mis-representing their position, feel free to chime in.drc466
April 30, 2015
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The rest ion of mental states is not Bill's only worry. He needs to explain the replacement of all atoms over a period of time and why we don't lose self. After all the atoms have been replaced we are still who we have been mentally but not physically.Andre
April 30, 2015
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Hi Bill, I am aware of this (comment #4). But it cannot possibly be the entire story and cannot account for the resumption of mental phenomena. I will respond in detail in a few hours once I clear my current work load. Thanks for the comment. Mark Frank (Comment #6) Ditto. Well be back at you. Thanksnkendall
April 30, 2015
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Pam Reynolds is not the only case. What does brain dead mean to a materialist? Dead but not really? It is a very good thing to be sceptical, but that is not what you lot are.Andre
April 30, 2015
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This took a bit of research but it is worth reading a bit of background. Pam Reynolds brain was taken to a state called "Burst Suppression" a distinctive EEG pattern. This is not the same as "no molecular activity".Mark Frank
April 30, 2015
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RB @ 4. I confess that I don't know much about this area. But I do know about materialist claims to knowledge. So when you say "we know . . ." do you mean we actually know? Or, as is so often the case with materialists, do you mean, "we assume because it is the only assumption consonant with our metaphysics"? If the former, how exactly do we know such a thing?Barry Arrington
April 30, 2015
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Problem is, we've known for 60+ years (since Donald Hebb) that learning and memory are mediated by synaptic plasticity, whereby the strength of synaptic connections between neurons change in response to coordinated neural activity, given the correct timing. Roughly, "neurons that fire together wire together" (although the required timing is more nuanced than suggested by this phrase). This is ultimately a physical change. Those connection strengths, and hence the learning (and memory) they mediate, endure even in brains at “stand-still.” Hence it is no surprise that learning, memory, a sense of self etc. persist through such a stand-still. Indeed, it is the physical persistence of those connections that account for pre- to post-standstill continuity - which works against the argument that nonmaterial factors are at work.Reciprocating Bill
April 30, 2015
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Materialism busted again.... I swear materialists are like piñata ' they just can't help getting beaten over and over and over again.Andre
April 30, 2015
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