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Guest Post: Continuity of Thought – A Disproof of Materialism

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Today’s guest post is from nkendall:

We have looked at the phenomena of dreams LINK: Are Dreams Incompatible With Materialism? and constancy of self through near death experiences LINK: Constancy of Self in Light of Near Death Experiences – A Disproof of Materialism as disproofs of materialism. Now I want to look at continuity of thought as a disproof of materialism.

 

Have you ever noticed that your mind is always presented with a continuous stream of related thoughts? There are seldom, if ever, any gaps where your mind is blank. There always seems to be a single, whole, intact thought present in our conscious awareness. I suppose there are exceptions such as seizures. Remarkably, barring interruption, each distinct thought in a sequence of thoughts is related to the adjacent thoughts in time; those before and after and in the context of one’s experiences. This is true whether we are rehashing a similar set of thoughts from memory, or when we are daydreaming or when our imaginations are heightened and presenting us with a novel, sequence of thoughts. Even more astounding is when these streams of thought are found to be creative and unique in human history and contribute to the advancement of human knowledge, human artifacts, artistic renderings and expressions of goodness in fundamental ways. Can these marvelous qualities of mind be reconciled with materialism which posits only the physical brain to account for human consciousness and intellect? No, they cannot; not even in principle.

 

Let’s first look briefly at materialist claims regarding consciousness and human intellect and then examine them in light of the qualities of mind that we all experience each moment of our lives.

 

MATERIALISM

It is not known how thoughts could arise in the brain, how they could be represented in the brain or how they could be rendered in our consciousness much less what consciousness is. For many people these intractable problems are enough to dismiss materialism from the start. But materialism’s grip on Western thought has conditioned the educated class into thinking that there are no plausible alternatives to a brain-only hypothesis of human consciousness and intellect. Only by thinking about the details of our conscious thoughts and about what would have to be the case for materialism to be true, does materialism’s brain-only theory fall apart.

 

Materialism’s reductionist accounting of human intellect requires strict adherence to bottom up causation. Bottom up causation means that it is the sequences of molecular neural events that give rise to one’s thoughts and directs them to our conscious awareness for rendering–somehow. Therefore, the thoughts that appear in our conscious awareness are entirely determined by the prior local causal chain of molecular neural events. But if our thoughts are produced and determined by the prior causal chain of neural events in the brain then they would not be expected or necessitated in any way to produce a coherent, continuous sequences of related thoughts that were recognizable to our conscious experience. There would be no expectation that adjacent brain states (similar configurations) would result in “adjacent” (tightly related) mental states. This decoupling of local causation at the physical level and information and meaning at the mental experience level is a fundamental fact that materialism is bound by. Simply put, physical processes in the brain cannot possibly have any way of knowing what set of physical sequences in the brain would give rise to coherent mental sequences of thought. Therefore, materialism is left with either blind chance or determinism neither of which could possibly produce the rich mental lives we all experience.

 

COMPLEX, SPECIFIED INFORMATION

The sequences of molecular neural events that materialism claims give rise to our thoughts would have to be precise and they would have to be specific. They would have to be precise and specific because there are an incalculable array of thoughts that can arise in our minds and these must then have an incalculable number of physical arrangements to underlie them. Imagine an insight that you have had or bit of knowledge that you have acquired. Then think of the innumerable ways in which it could be slightly modified even in very subtle ways. Each version of this insight would have–must have if materialism is true–a slightly different underlying neural signature otherwise they would not be distinguishable from thoughts which were slightly different. Also, since these physical processes–these sequences of molecular neural events–would have to interface with other putative physical processes, a predictable outcome could only result if the processes themselves, and the interface between them, were precise and specific.

 

Because thoughts and insights unfold over time, they would have underlying sequences of arrangements, not just static arrangements. Once the first thought in a stream of related thoughts were brought forth in our conscious awareness, the subsequent thoughts would be constrained by the content (the meaning) of the initial thought and increasingly so with each new thought as this collection of emerging thoughts matured into a complete insight. The underlying physical processes which materialism claims give rise to these thoughts would, therefore, also be increasingly constrained and more tightly specified as more thoughts were brought forth just as the configurations in my brain causing the movements of my hands and fingers would have to be increasingly constrained as I type out this sentence.

 

Therefore, under a materialist assumption, in order for a continuous, coherent stream of related thoughts to occur, an enormous number of molecular components in the brain would have to be continuously arranged in increasingly very precise and specific ways. The sheer number of molecular components involved betrays a very high degree of complexity. These streams of thought would exhibit extraordinary quantities of complex, specified information and constitute irreducibly complex configurations.

 

Especially noteworthy are the spontaneous emergence of unique and novel thoughts that lead to an expansion of human knowledge in profound and important ways. Although each of us have unique and novel thought streams each day, most are not significant in this regard. If materialism is true, its account of such unique and novel phenomena would entail that the underlying local causation in the brain results in a unique sequence of arrangements of components in the brain–arrangements that these components would have never assumed before. In and of itself that is not significant. By chance, local physical causation of components in the brain will almost always result in unique configurations. But what is special about the complexity here is the types of unique, complex sequences of arrangements of neural molecular components. These arrangements would be highly specified and convey information at the mental level that has meaning–important meaning–in human discourse. These sequences of arrangements would comprise an infinitesimally small set of possible dynamic configurations of the brain’s molecular components, the vast majority of which would convey absolutely no useful information at all in human discourse. (This all of course assumes that a sequence of arrangements of molecules can produce any thing at the mental level at all as materialism claims.)

 

FOREKNOWLEDGE

In addition to a material mechanism to account for the generation of continuous sequences of novel, complex, specified arrangements of physical brain components, there would have to be a physical process in the brain that would somehow know in advance either where those specific neural circuits were that were incubating a spontaneous emerging thought or whether the outcome of a physical process is producing a thought that is useful in an existing sequence of related thoughts. This physical process would also have to know how these thoughts were structured and how they were bounded within the neural circuits such that a whole, distinct, coherent thought could be captured, sequestered, transmitted and presented to our consciousness in a timely fashion. These physical processes in the brain would have to pass these distinct thoughts to another unknown physical process which would serialize them properly with other emerging thoughts and prepare them for rendering in our conscious experience. How these physical processes would know where and when these useful related thoughts were emerging, how they were structured and bounded, how they should be sequence and rendered in our consciousness are intractable mysteries.

 

These seemingly omniscient and clairvoyant physical processes of engendering coherent, contextually relevant thoughts, locating and identifying them as they emerge, sequencing them and preparing them for rendering in our consciousness would have to be repeated continuously and unerringly throughout the entire life of a human such that our conscious awareness was continuously presented with a coherent stream of related thoughts. These putative physical processes of the brain would have to account for the seamless rendering of a continuous stream of thoughts despite interruptions from our senses. They would have to be able to continuously reassert prior thought streams and integrate them with our memories and with any new information presented through the senses.

 

PROBABILITIES

Despite the intuitive implausibility of materialist claims given the foregoing, it is not possible to adequately quantify the probabilities. There are at least two reasons for this. First, we cannot know the scope of the possible alternative brain states, within which any coherent continuous thought stream would reside, because materialism cannot tell us how thoughts are, or could be, generated in the brain or how many physical components would be required to produce them and represent them. But we do know that the super set of possible brain states is vast and the probabilities of landing on a specific sequence of brain states that might produce a specific series of coherent mental states would be very unkind to materialism’s brain-only hypothesis, if it could be done at all. Secondly, thoughts have no obvious material qualities at all and therefore cannot be quantified except by using a proxy calculation using symbolic language which would grossly understate the complexity involved and therefore be excessively charitable to materialism. But materialism would fail miserably nonetheless

 

NEO-DARWINISM

Absent an immaterial mind, materialism is left with the physical brain. The brain then has to account for everything we experience in our mental lives. This is an enormous burden. According to materialism, each quality of mind is underwritten by a physical process in the brain. The only explanation materialism has to offer as to how all these marvelous qualities of mind could have arisen (and arisen so quickly), is evolutionary theory–neo-darwinism. According to neo-darwinism each of these processes would have had to have been assembled piecemeal using the tandem mechanism of random mutation and natural selection. But there are serious problems with this that cannot be overcome, even in principle.

 

One obvious problem with an evolutionary accounting for the brain is that so many of the features and qualities of mind exhibit the signature of modern humanity. It is hard to accept that the brain could have been configured by evolution in the distant past to harbor a vast set of latent capabilities which when manifested would just happen to be useful in the context of 21st century humans. It is one thing to have the general capability for something but quite another thing to explain the specific causes that could bring forth vast quantities of novel, complex specified information spontaneously, continuously and near instantaneously and that offer value to modern humanity!

 

Secondly, in order for evolution to have produced a brain with the capabilities and qualities of mind we all experience, the physical processes which materialism purports gives rise to them in the brain would have to be encoded and stored in the DNA. These configurations might then be subject to “random mutational” changes such that they could be selected. However, the configurations for these processes cannot be identified or even inferred from the DNA. So where does all this complexity come from? And where is it stored? Think of it this way: If materialism is true and if science is the only pathway to truth, then it is reasonable to say that nature and in fact all reality is transparent to human reason. In effect, then, the brain could be said to have the capability of subsuming the complexity of all reality. Yet the complexity of the DNA–especially those more limited segments that produce the brain–is hopelessly insufficient to account for the total complexity of reality. Furthermore, this complexity would have had to have arisen throughout the lives of far too few individuals throughout the brief evolutionary period during which the descent of modern man is believed to have occurred.

 

SUMMARY

I have briefly sketched out the intractable difficulties of a materialist account involving the continuity of human thought. If any of this sounds at all plausible to you then let me suggest that you have been irreparably brainwashed by the scientism which has come to dominate Western academia.

 

If it is unreasonable to believe that these marvelous qualities of mind that we all experience continuously cannot be explained by an electro-chemical “machine” of sorts i.e. the brain, then we have to consider alternatives such as mind/brain dualism and dismiss materialism as a false hypothesis. And in fact it is unreasonable to believe that material processes in the brain could account for these qualities of mind. Setting aside the intractable difficulties in explaining how abstract thoughts are represented in the brain and rendered in consciousness or even what consciousness is, there is no reason to suspect that physical processes would have the foreknowledge to identify specific areas in the vastness of the brain that just happened to be readying themselves to produce a specific, coherent stream of thoughts that have meaning in human discourse. And there is also no reason to believe that it is likely or even possible for the brain–unaided by an immaterial mind–to arrange its components in such a way that it would generate a succession of complex, specified configurations continuously and unerringly throughout one’s life. These problems are fundamental and will not surrender to an entreaty to promissory materialism because foreknowledge and spontaneous generation of novel, continuous, complex, specified information is required and these cannot be accounted for by physical processes in the brain.

 

Let me close with a supreme example of human thought. To believe that the streams of thought Einstein must have experienced, as he sought the solution to the problems whose eventual resolution became a fundamental truth about reality–Relativity, happened as a result of continuous sequences of chance arrangements of molecular neural events, is such a draft on common sense that one would have to conclude–given the general acceptance of materialism–that any belief, no matter how foolish and no matter how contrary to direct human experience, could come to be accepted if wrapped in the sophistication of intellectualism and delivered with the full authority of science. One has to wonder at the irony as to how a method of inquiry–science–which has been spectacularly successful, with its intention to seek truth empirically through open rational inquiry, could lead us down a dead end path and become like that which it sought to counter–the tyranny of an overbearing institutional religion which itself had departed from its own charter.

 

Comments
Hello Mr. RDFish, (and others who have commented) I have a busy weekend but will get back to you with some additional comments at some point. Thanks for the dialog. Best regards to all.nkendall
May 23, 2015
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F/N, FTR/FYI: UD Weak Argument Correctives, appendix on ID glossary (cf. resources tab, top of every UD page for quite some years now . . . as in, if in doubt, kindly check here for clarification):
>>Chance, contingency, necessity, and design Chance – undirected contingency. That is, events that come from a cluster of possible outcomes, but for which there is no decisive evidence that they are directed; especially where sampled or observed outcomes follow mathematical distributions tied to statistical models of randomness. (E.g. which side of a fair die is uppermost on tossing and tumbling then settling.) Contingency – here, possible outcomes that (by contrast with those of necessity) may vary significantly from case to case under reasonably similar initial conditions. (E.g. which side of a die is uppermost, whether it has been loaded or not, upon tossing, tumbling and settling.). Contingent [as opposed to necessary] beings begin to exist (and so are caused), need not exist in all possible worlds, and may/do go out of existence. Necessity — here, events that are triggered and controlled by mechanical forces that (together with initial conditions) reliably lead to given – sometimes simple (an unsupported heavy object falls) but also perhaps complicated — outcomes. (Newtonian dynamics is the classical model of such necessity.) In some cases, sensitive dependence on [or, “to”] initial conditions may leads to unpredictability of outcomes, due to cumulative amplification of the effects of noise or small, random/ accidental differences between initial and intervening conditions, or simply inevitable rounding errors in calculation. This is called “chaos.” Design — purposefully directed contingency. That is, the intelligent, creative manipulation of possible outcomes (and usually of objects, forces, materials, processes and trends) towards goals. (E.g. 1: writing a meaningful sentence or a functional computer program. E.g. 2: loading of a die to produce biased, often advantageous, outcomes. E.g. 3: the creation of a complex object such as a statue, or a stone arrow-head, or a computer, or a pocket knife.) [ . . . . ] Information Information — Wikipedia, with some reorganization, is apt: “ . . that which would be communicated by a message if it were sent from a sender to a receiver capable of understanding the message . . . . In terms of data, it can be defined as a collection of facts [i.e. as represented or sensed in some format] from which conclusions may be drawn [and on which decisions and actions may be taken].” Intelligence Intelligence – Wikipedia aptly and succinctly defines: “capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn.” ID, Intelligent Design Intelligent design [ID] – Dr William A Dembski, a leading design theorist, has defined ID as “the science that studies signs of intelligence.” That is, as we ourselves instantiate [thus exemplify as opposed to “exhaust”], intelligent designers act into the world, and create artifacts. When such argents act, there are certain characteristics that commonly appear, and that – per massive experience — reliably mark such artifacts. It it therefore a reasonable and useful scientific project to study such signs and identify how we may credibly reliably infer from empirical sign to the signified causal factor: purposefully directed contingency or intelligent design. Among the signs of intelligence of current interest for research are: [a] FSCI — function-specifying complex information [e.g. blog posts in English text that take in more than 143 ASCII characters, and/or — as was highlighted by Yockey and Wickens by the mid-1980s — as a distinguishing marker of the macromolecules in the heart of cell-based life forms], or more broadly [b] CSI — complex, independently specified information [e.g. Mt Rushmore vs New Hampshire’s former Old Man of the mountain, or — as was highlighted by Orgel in 1973 — a distinguishing feature of the cell’s information-rich organized aperiodic macromolecules that are neither simply orderly like crystals nor random like chance-polymerized peptide chains], or [c] IC — multi-part functionality that relies on an irreducible core of mutually co-adapted, interacting components. [e.g. the hardware parts of a PC or more simply of a mousetrap; or – as was highlighted by Behe in the mid 1990’s — the bacterial flagellum and many other cell-based bodily features and functions.], or [d] “Oracular” active information – in some cases, e.g. many Genetic Algorithms, successful performance of a system traces to built-in information or organisation that guides algorithmicsearch processes and/or performance so that the system significantly outperforms random search. Such guidance may include oracles that, step by step, inform a search process that the iterations are “warmer/ colder” relative to a performance target zone. (A classic example is the Weasel phrase search program.) Also, [e] Complex, algorithmically active, coded information – the complex information used in systems and processes is symbolically coded in ways that are not preset by underlying physical or chemical forces, but by encoding and decoding dynamically inert but algorithmically active information that guides step by step execution sequences, i.e. algorithms. (For instance, in hard disk drives, the stored information in bits is coded based a conventional, symbolic assignment of the N/S poles, forces and fields involved, and is impressed and used algorithmically. The physics of forces and fields does not determine or control the bit-pattern of the information – or, the drive would be useless. Similarly, in DNA, the polymer chaining chemistry is effectively unrelated to the information stored in the sequence and reading frames of the A/ G/ C/ T side-groups. It is the coded genetic information in the successive three-letter D/RNA codons that is used by the cell’s molecular nano- machines in the step by step creation of proteins. Such DNA sets from observed living organisms starts at 100,000 – 500,000 four-state elements [200 k – 1 M bits], abundantly meriting the description: function- specifying, complex information, or FSCI.) IC, Irreducible Complexity Irreducible Complexity, IC — A system performing a given basic function is irreducibly complex if it includes a set of well-matched, mutually interacting, nonarbitrarily individuated parts such that each part in the set is indispensable to maintaining the system’s basic, and therefore original, function. The set of these indispensable parts is known as the irreducible core of the system. (Dembski, No Free Lunch, p. 285 [HT: D O’L]) Materialism Materialism — the philosophical premise that all that is, is “material.” In practice, that means that our observed universe is held to be “nothing but” the result of blind forces of nature acting on matter-energy in space-time, in light of chance circumstances across time. Thus, the resulting evolutionary materialism assumes or asserts – and this (on pain of the old “No True Scotsman” fallacy) is not at all simply the general consensus of “all” informed and responsible thinkers – that: (a) through undirected cosmological evolutionary processes, our cosmos came into existence and evolved into the complex of stars, galaxies and planetary systems we observe. Similarly, (b) life originated by fortuitous synthesis and juxtaposition of required chemicals such that self-replicating entities came into existence. Once life originated, (c) chance variation of various sorts, and competition for food and for reproduction allowed diverse life forms to originate by chance and necessity only, and to fill the niches in ecosystems, leading to body-plan level biodiversity as observed in the fossil record and in our current world. Also, (d) at a certain point, some ape-like animals — having a superabundance of neurons, relative to what was needed to survive on the plains of East Africa several million years ago — became conscious, intelligent hominids; who eventually became modern man. Such philosophically premised evolutionary materialism is then often enforced institutionally through the recently imposed “rule” of science known as methodological naturalism: in effect, only causal patterns and stories fitting into the origins model (a) through (d) as just summarized are permitted in scientific discourse, on pain of “expulsion.”>>
Note, the use of a generic, performance based approach to defining and recognising intelligent behaviour. This, strictly does not mandate consciousness but understanding ideas etc point in that general direction. Design, is then understood in a nutshell, as intelligently directed configuration. Configurations that reflect purposeful contingency manifested in explicit or implicit plans, with ourselves as paradigm cases but with no implication of being confined to such. There is nothing vague or mysterious, the descriptions are anchored to paradigm cases and it is understood that the reasonable person will extend by family resemblance and will not try to twist words into their opposites or into self-serving or agenda-serving confusion. Unfortunately, this seems to be a problem with at least some objectors to design thought. KFkairosfocus
May 23, 2015
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Box, with the mod that stochastic chance processes are also relevant and equally non-rational, yup. KFkairosfocus
May 23, 2015
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// Argument against materialism // 1. If materialism is true, then determinism is true. 2. If determinism is true, then all our actions and thoughts are consequences of events and laws of nature in the remote past before we were born. 3. We have no control over circumstances that existed in the remote past before we were born, nor do we have any control over the laws of nature. 4. If A causes B, and we have no control over A, and A is sufficient for B, then we have no control over B. Therefore 5. If determinism is true, then we have no control over our own actions and thoughts. Therefore, assuming that rationality requires control, 6. If determinism is true, we are not rational. 7. We are rational. Therefore 8. Determinism is false. 9. If determinism is false, then materialism is false. Conclusion: MATERIALISM IS FALSE.Box
May 23, 2015
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Hi RDFish, How are you doing?
Box: One thing is for sure, you are not addressing my argument.
RDFish: I’ve demolished it.
All you have done is misrepresenting my argument. You are delusional. Cheers, Box.Box
May 23, 2015
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RDFish expects us to believe that while he is thinking of nothing at all, he is in fact thinking of something. Is bizarre too strong a word?Mung
May 23, 2015
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Meanwhile, RDFish avoids the question of how it is possible to think of nothing at all.Mung
May 23, 2015
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Plantinga argues that since P(R) is low given N&E, N&E are self-refuting (you know, like KF likes to say). My counter-argument shows this is not a defeater for N&E.RDFish
May 22, 2015
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Hi bFast, No, it's a different argument by Plantinga, about reliability of minds undermining belief in naturalism: N as naturalism, which he defined as "the idea that there is no such person as God or anything like God; we might think of it as high-octane atheism or perhaps atheism-plus."[12] E as the belief that human beings have evolved in conformity with current evolutionary theory R as the proposition that our faculties are "reliable", where, roughly, a cognitive faculty is "reliable" if the great bulk of its deliverances are true. He specifically cited the example of a thermometer stuck at 72 °F (22 °C) placed in an environment which happened to be at 72 °F as an example of something that is not "reliable" in this sense[9] and suggested that the conditional probability of R given N and E, or P(R|N&E), is low or inscrutable.RDFish
May 22, 2015
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Hi bFast,
I agree with you on your frustration at your inability to get concrete definitions for “intelligent” and “designed”.
Ah, at long last! Thank you! Would you please explain this to StephenB?
That said, hard as I try, I cannot buy your theory that conscious activity is not continuous. My conscious mind is always about something.
I trust you take my point that we have no way of ascertaining whether or not our conscious activity is continuous that does not involve memory. We could not report a stream of conscious thoughts unless we recorded memories of these thoughts and then recalled them. The reason you cannot remember having gaps in your consciousness is simple: You form memories of thoughts when you think about something consciously, and you form no memories when you don't. So, when you think back about your stream of consciousness, you remember a string of thoughts - not the gaps in between. As I pointed out above, there's lots of research showing that our conscious experience as we remember it does not reflect sequences as they actually happen. One area this can be seen involves the time-shifting that the brain does (rearranging in memory of the points in time that we hear, see, or feel stimuli) in order to match our psychological expections. Here is a bit about that - and here's just one example:
The cohesiveness of consciousness is essential to our judgments about cause and effect—and, therefore, to our sense of self. In one particularly sneaky experiment, Eagleman and his team asked volunteers to press a button to make a light blink—with a slight delay. After 10 or so presses, people cottoned onto the delay and began to see the blink happen as soon as they pressed the button. Then the experimenters reduced the delay, and people reported that the blink happened before they pressed the button.
All this is very interesting stuff, but to be honest I never saw the connection between this and what nkendall is trying to argue - against materialism. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 22, 2015
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RDfish, I have been looking into Plantinga's argument, and your refutation of it. The first struggle I had was in finding a compact definition of his argument. (It is nice to see what it is you are refuting, but figuring that out required our good friend google.) Plantinga's argument: 1. Our beliefs about the world can only have evolutionary consequences if they affect our behaviors (otherwise they are invisible to natural selection); 2. Natural selection favors advantageous behaviors, not directly the ability to form true beliefs; 3. Natural selection has no way to favor true non-adaptive beliefs over false but adaptive beliefs. Your refutation: 1) Either our minds are reliable or they are not 2) If our minds are reliable, then they are reliable no matter how minds came to exist, and no matter what is true of ontology. In this case Plantinga’s argument does not apply. 3) Otherwise, if our minds are unreliable, then we can’t rely on anything we think, including Plantinga’s argument. So Plantinga’s argument does not apply in this case either. 4) Therefore, we cannot use the reliability of minds to argue against materialism, and we cannot conclude that materialism entails (or makes likely) that our minds are unreliable. Your logic is impeccable. It does not, however, seem to mesh with the impeccable logic of Plantinga. Plantinga's argument restated: "natural selection" doesn't care that our minds are reliable, so how could it have produce a reliable mind. I don't find Plantinga’s argument to be very compelling. However, I question whether reliability of mind is just a natural byproduct of optimal survival. Certainly, the cockroach that remembers where he found his last source of food has a certain survival advantage over the forgetful cockroach. Therefore, I don't find your refutation of Plantinga’s argument to be all that good because what it is refuting isn't exactly what Plantinga has argued. I also don't find Plantinga’s argument compelling.bFast
May 22, 2015
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RDFish:
As an inventor, I would often work for days on a difficult problem, only to find that the solution would come to me “unbidden” while I was thinking about something else, or about nothing at all. This is a very common experience – people report this all the time. The reason it happens is because most of our thinking occurs without conscious awareness. Our brain is working away on the problem, but we become conscious of our thoughts only at certain times.
Funny how "unbidden" appears in scare quotes. Still unanswered is the question, how does one think about nothing at all? Meanwhile, while the foreground process is thinking about nothing at all, the background process continues to think about something that is not nothing. Why doesn't the background process likewise think about nothing at all?Mung
May 22, 2015
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RDfish, I have not noticed your dialog before. However you are interesting. I, like you, am a software engineer. I have not studied AI nearly as deeply as you have, but I have poked my nose into it far beyond the experience of (most of) the others here. You make valid points. I agree with you on your frustration at your inability to get concrete definitions for "intelligent" and "designed". On the direct topic of the consciousness, well, I had not weighed into this topic yet because I don't see it as a good case for ID -- I think it just a good case for ignorance. Ie, we have a "conscious awareness" that is really cool, but we simply find it hard to even describe what it is. I, like you, am also a patented inventor. I well understand your "out of the blue" experience. I have made it a habit of "putting it on the back burner", "chewing my cud on a problem" etc. These are all, as I call them, communication with the quiet side of my brain. The quiet side is very powerful. It is from this side that every brilliant thought I have ever had has come. (Some thoughts from the quiet side have not been all that brilliant.) That said, hard as I try, I cannot buy your theory that conscious activity is not continuous. My conscious mind is always about something. Sometimes it seems that my mind hasn't latched onto something to think about, but even then I seem to have a conscious awareness of my drifting. My felt experience is that consciousness is continuous. Just sayin.bFast
May 22, 2015
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If our minds were not impaired, everyone could sit as a juror. If all our minds are impaired, no one could sit as a juror. Yet we still seat jurors. RDFish is unimpressed.Mung
May 22, 2015
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RDFish:
Now, can anyone find a problem with my refutation of Plantinga’s argument?
Yes. It does not address the argument. I bet RDFish wonders why there are laws against impaired driving. One wonders why.Mung
May 22, 2015
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Hi jerry,
I would not cross any bridges then or take any medicines or fly on any plane or… Because they are not reliable because they are the product of minds that are not reliable.
Why don't you people get it? If our minds were not reliable, then the reasoning we used to decide that we should stay off of airplanes would not be reliable. Duh! We all assume our minds are reliable, but we can't prove it. Now, can anyone find a problem with my refutation of Plantinga's argument? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 22, 2015
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Hi Silver Asiatic
RDF: No, I don’t THINK our minds are reliable … SA: Ok, you don’t think your mind is reliable.
Stop quote mining - include the rest of the quote. Really, you so desperate to prove me wrong that you start cheating! Good grief, man - everybody can read what I said on this very page!! Anyway, you've indicated you have no valid counter-argument, thanks. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 22, 2015
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According to Darwinian evolution, the evolutionary process preceded the design (the illusion of design).
Depends on what you mean by terms. If you just look at the term, Darwinian process, as strictly a biological process where variation produced by several different processes, along with differential fertility and then differential survival that there then will be differences in gene pools over time. Nothing controversial about that. What is controversial is the origin of the machinery that allows for this biological process to happen. It is extremely complex. And the second controversy is that over time this process explains the differences in life forms we see over 3 billion years. The first, the origin of the cellular machinery, is not explained by the Darwinian process and the second, large scale changes in life forms, is unlikely to have happened by this Darwinian process. But the process exists. So what do we call it. I just referred to it as the Darwinian process. I am calling Darwinism the claim that this complex machinery just arose out of basic chemical reactions and the environment and then this complex machinery accounted for all life we see. Neither claim is justifiable. But there is a process, and its origin is unknown that produces changes in life forms. But they are all minor. Could an omnipotent creator have designed a process that flowed from the initial conditions of the universe that then produced the machinery in a cell that leads to the Darwinian process? I would think the answer is yes. However, it looks like it was not done that way. Could this process have been more robust than it actually is so as to account for all the changes in life forms we see since the first life appeared? Again we can assume that such a robust process could have been a consequence of the initial conditions of the universe if the designer of universe wanted. But it appears again that this is not the case. Which forces us to look elsewhere for why and how it happened. One of the mysteries of life.jerry
May 22, 2015
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F/N 2: Plato in The Laws Bk X, c 360 BC: >> Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [[ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [[ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly. Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler? [[ . . . . ] Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.] >> KFkairosfocus
May 22, 2015
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F/N: Garvey, Nova Scotia, 1937:
We are going to emancipate ourselves from mental slavery because whilst others might free the body, none but ourselves can free the mind. Mind is your only ruler, sovereign. The man who is not able to develop and use his mind is bound to be the slave of the other man who uses his mind . . .
The mystery of the soul speaks. But, who is listening? KF PS: The speech: https://henriettavintondavis.wordpress.com/2010/03/24/redemption-song/kairosfocus
May 22, 2015
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No, I don’t THINK our minds are reliable …
I would not cross any bridges then or take any medicines or fly on any plane or... Because they are not reliable because they are the product of minds that are not reliable.jerry
May 22, 2015
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RDFish
No, I don’t THINK our minds are reliable ...
Ok, you don't think your mind is reliable. 1. In order to make and communicate a sound argument, you need a mind that is reliable. 2. You don't think your mind is reliable. 3. Therefore, your argument is not sound. In fact, none of your arguments are sound and there's no point in you trying to discuss anything.Silver Asiatic
May 22, 2015
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Hi StephenB, Read what I said I meant by "design" and "intelligence". The sort of intelligence implemented by evolutionary mechanisms is strictly trial-and-error, with no backtracking or lookahead. So when I say evo bio believes organisms were designed by an intelligent process, that is exactly what I mean. It doesn't mean that evolution makes plans - it doesn't, of course, which is what I meant when I said "no lookahead". This isn't that hard - are you really incapable of understanding this sense of the word? Or is it that you just can't stop yourself from insisting that you get to be the one who picks definitions for words and nobody else is authorized to? Fine - instead of "design" and "intelligence" I'll pick some other words, like "creating" and "problem solving". Happy? In any case, you missed the whole point of what I was saying to Mr. Kendall (who, in contrast with yourself, communicates quite clearly, civilly, and with good humor!), which was that evo biologists already expect (wrongly, as it happens) evolution to come up with all sorts of amazing engineering solutions because of what they (wrongly) think evolution can do. This is the case, StephenB, and I would think you would be in wholehearted agreement with everything I just said! Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 22, 2015
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Hi Mung,
Mung: How dose Plantinga define reliable?
Have you heard of "Google.com"? Plantinga defines a cognitive faculty as "reliable" if "the great bulk of its deliverances are true."
Already declared yourself the victor, and we’re not even past the first premise yet. Must be nice.
If you had an argument you'd have said so by now. You haven't, because you don't. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 22, 2015
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RDFish
You shouldn’t have, because you are completely wrong.
I am completely right, as is clear from your inability to respond to the point. What you should have said is this: "I agree, but I would prefer not to dwell on that particular aspect."StephenB
May 22, 2015
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Mung: Let’s start with your first premise. How are you defining reliable. Completely without error in all things at all times? RDFish: No, I’m defining it the same way Plantinga does. Mung: How dose Plantinga define reliable? RDFish: Every time I win an argument you get angrier. It’s pretty fun for me though Already declared yourself the victor, and we're not even past the first premise yet. Must be nice. I don't get angry with you. I find you immensely entertaining. A constant source of amusement, not anger. CheersMung
May 22, 2015
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RDF, I have pointed out in outline that any system that reduces to deterministic control and/or to mechanical control plus chance is inherently incompatible with responsible, rational freedom; thence self-referential absurdity and utter irrationality. I have excellent reason to hold that we are responsible, rational and genuinely free so I have no need to accept questionable, argumentative and ultimately incoherent definitions that boil down to freedom equals slavery so here's to who can best manipulate, brainwash and program -- and, I have dealt with victims of mind control sects, recognising that a key step in such is built in irrationality, confusion, absurdity and polarisation leading to clinging to the controllers. I then took time to cite longstanding, well thought through definitions that not only break the hoped for mind-lock of the compatibilist definition but are actually eye opening. Compatibilism fails the absurdity test. How we are free is currently a mystery, but free we indubitably are so long as we are reasoning, self-moved, responsible, reflexive, self-reflecting beings. The price tag of compatibilism is just too high: surrendering responsible freedom and clinging to incoherent absurdities. KF PS: I clip a former neighbour from his most famous song, in which he cited Margus Mosiah Garvey:
Bob Marley – Redemption Song Lyrics Old pirates, yes, they rob I, Sold I to the merchant ships, Minutes after they took I From the bottomless pit. But my hand was made strong By the 'and of the Almighty. We forward in this generation Triumphantly. Won't you help to sing These songs of freedom? 'Cause all I ever have, Redemption songs, Redemption songs. Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, None but ourselves can free our minds. Have no fear for atomic energy, 'Cause none of them can stop the time. How long shall they kill our prophets, While we stand aside and look? Some say it's just a part of it, We've got to fulfill de book. Won't you help to sing These songs of freedom? 'Cause all I ever have, Redemption songs, Redemption songs, Redemption songs. Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, None but ourselves can free our mind. Have no fear for atomic energy, 'Cause none of them can stop the time. How long shall they kill our prophets, While we stand aside and look? Some say it's just a part of it, We've got to fulfill the book. Won't you help to sing, These songs of freedom? 'Cause all I ever had, Redemption songs. All I ever had, Redemption songs These songs of freedom Songs of freedom
vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFGgbT_VasIkairosfocus
May 22, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
I didn’t want to get involved in the discussion, but this is a very serious error.
You shouldn't have, because you are completely wrong. You are just going off on definitions again instead of paying attention to what is being argued. You folks all seem to think that you get to own the definitions of all these words, like "freedom" and "design", but you don't. As long as people are clear about how they are using these words (and I have been very clear - read #57 again), they can use any definition they'd like. Read what I say, understand it, and if you have some sort of counter-argument then present it. Stop arguing about definitions and start arguing about minds and brains, which is what this thread is about. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 22, 2015
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Hi Mung,
Let’s start with your first premise. How are you defining reliable. Completely without error in all things at all times?
No, I'm defining it the same way Plantinga does.
Now what happens to your argument?
It refutes Plantinga's argument.
Since RDFish’s mind is completely unreliable at all times I think we should ignore anything he says.
Every time I win an argument you get angrier. It's pretty fun for me though :-) Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 22, 2015
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Hi KF, As usual you didn't respond to a single thing I wrote. That is why I don't debate with you. That is also why you are incapable of learning anything, and end up sounding like a lunatic. Really, you do. You're just bizarre. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 22, 2015
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