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Guest Post: Continuity of Thought – A Disproof of Materialism

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Today’s guest post is from nkendall:

We have looked at the phenomena of dreams LINK: Are Dreams Incompatible With Materialism? and constancy of self through near death experiences LINK: Constancy of Self in Light of Near Death Experiences – A Disproof of Materialism as disproofs of materialism. Now I want to look at continuity of thought as a disproof of materialism.

 

Have you ever noticed that your mind is always presented with a continuous stream of related thoughts? There are seldom, if ever, any gaps where your mind is blank. There always seems to be a single, whole, intact thought present in our conscious awareness. I suppose there are exceptions such as seizures. Remarkably, barring interruption, each distinct thought in a sequence of thoughts is related to the adjacent thoughts in time; those before and after and in the context of one’s experiences. This is true whether we are rehashing a similar set of thoughts from memory, or when we are daydreaming or when our imaginations are heightened and presenting us with a novel, sequence of thoughts. Even more astounding is when these streams of thought are found to be creative and unique in human history and contribute to the advancement of human knowledge, human artifacts, artistic renderings and expressions of goodness in fundamental ways. Can these marvelous qualities of mind be reconciled with materialism which posits only the physical brain to account for human consciousness and intellect? No, they cannot; not even in principle.

 

Let’s first look briefly at materialist claims regarding consciousness and human intellect and then examine them in light of the qualities of mind that we all experience each moment of our lives.

 

MATERIALISM

It is not known how thoughts could arise in the brain, how they could be represented in the brain or how they could be rendered in our consciousness much less what consciousness is. For many people these intractable problems are enough to dismiss materialism from the start. But materialism’s grip on Western thought has conditioned the educated class into thinking that there are no plausible alternatives to a brain-only hypothesis of human consciousness and intellect. Only by thinking about the details of our conscious thoughts and about what would have to be the case for materialism to be true, does materialism’s brain-only theory fall apart.

 

Materialism’s reductionist accounting of human intellect requires strict adherence to bottom up causation. Bottom up causation means that it is the sequences of molecular neural events that give rise to one’s thoughts and directs them to our conscious awareness for rendering–somehow. Therefore, the thoughts that appear in our conscious awareness are entirely determined by the prior local causal chain of molecular neural events. But if our thoughts are produced and determined by the prior causal chain of neural events in the brain then they would not be expected or necessitated in any way to produce a coherent, continuous sequences of related thoughts that were recognizable to our conscious experience. There would be no expectation that adjacent brain states (similar configurations) would result in “adjacent” (tightly related) mental states. This decoupling of local causation at the physical level and information and meaning at the mental experience level is a fundamental fact that materialism is bound by. Simply put, physical processes in the brain cannot possibly have any way of knowing what set of physical sequences in the brain would give rise to coherent mental sequences of thought. Therefore, materialism is left with either blind chance or determinism neither of which could possibly produce the rich mental lives we all experience.

 

COMPLEX, SPECIFIED INFORMATION

The sequences of molecular neural events that materialism claims give rise to our thoughts would have to be precise and they would have to be specific. They would have to be precise and specific because there are an incalculable array of thoughts that can arise in our minds and these must then have an incalculable number of physical arrangements to underlie them. Imagine an insight that you have had or bit of knowledge that you have acquired. Then think of the innumerable ways in which it could be slightly modified even in very subtle ways. Each version of this insight would have–must have if materialism is true–a slightly different underlying neural signature otherwise they would not be distinguishable from thoughts which were slightly different. Also, since these physical processes–these sequences of molecular neural events–would have to interface with other putative physical processes, a predictable outcome could only result if the processes themselves, and the interface between them, were precise and specific.

 

Because thoughts and insights unfold over time, they would have underlying sequences of arrangements, not just static arrangements. Once the first thought in a stream of related thoughts were brought forth in our conscious awareness, the subsequent thoughts would be constrained by the content (the meaning) of the initial thought and increasingly so with each new thought as this collection of emerging thoughts matured into a complete insight. The underlying physical processes which materialism claims give rise to these thoughts would, therefore, also be increasingly constrained and more tightly specified as more thoughts were brought forth just as the configurations in my brain causing the movements of my hands and fingers would have to be increasingly constrained as I type out this sentence.

 

Therefore, under a materialist assumption, in order for a continuous, coherent stream of related thoughts to occur, an enormous number of molecular components in the brain would have to be continuously arranged in increasingly very precise and specific ways. The sheer number of molecular components involved betrays a very high degree of complexity. These streams of thought would exhibit extraordinary quantities of complex, specified information and constitute irreducibly complex configurations.

 

Especially noteworthy are the spontaneous emergence of unique and novel thoughts that lead to an expansion of human knowledge in profound and important ways. Although each of us have unique and novel thought streams each day, most are not significant in this regard. If materialism is true, its account of such unique and novel phenomena would entail that the underlying local causation in the brain results in a unique sequence of arrangements of components in the brain–arrangements that these components would have never assumed before. In and of itself that is not significant. By chance, local physical causation of components in the brain will almost always result in unique configurations. But what is special about the complexity here is the types of unique, complex sequences of arrangements of neural molecular components. These arrangements would be highly specified and convey information at the mental level that has meaning–important meaning–in human discourse. These sequences of arrangements would comprise an infinitesimally small set of possible dynamic configurations of the brain’s molecular components, the vast majority of which would convey absolutely no useful information at all in human discourse. (This all of course assumes that a sequence of arrangements of molecules can produce any thing at the mental level at all as materialism claims.)

 

FOREKNOWLEDGE

In addition to a material mechanism to account for the generation of continuous sequences of novel, complex, specified arrangements of physical brain components, there would have to be a physical process in the brain that would somehow know in advance either where those specific neural circuits were that were incubating a spontaneous emerging thought or whether the outcome of a physical process is producing a thought that is useful in an existing sequence of related thoughts. This physical process would also have to know how these thoughts were structured and how they were bounded within the neural circuits such that a whole, distinct, coherent thought could be captured, sequestered, transmitted and presented to our consciousness in a timely fashion. These physical processes in the brain would have to pass these distinct thoughts to another unknown physical process which would serialize them properly with other emerging thoughts and prepare them for rendering in our conscious experience. How these physical processes would know where and when these useful related thoughts were emerging, how they were structured and bounded, how they should be sequence and rendered in our consciousness are intractable mysteries.

 

These seemingly omniscient and clairvoyant physical processes of engendering coherent, contextually relevant thoughts, locating and identifying them as they emerge, sequencing them and preparing them for rendering in our consciousness would have to be repeated continuously and unerringly throughout the entire life of a human such that our conscious awareness was continuously presented with a coherent stream of related thoughts. These putative physical processes of the brain would have to account for the seamless rendering of a continuous stream of thoughts despite interruptions from our senses. They would have to be able to continuously reassert prior thought streams and integrate them with our memories and with any new information presented through the senses.

 

PROBABILITIES

Despite the intuitive implausibility of materialist claims given the foregoing, it is not possible to adequately quantify the probabilities. There are at least two reasons for this. First, we cannot know the scope of the possible alternative brain states, within which any coherent continuous thought stream would reside, because materialism cannot tell us how thoughts are, or could be, generated in the brain or how many physical components would be required to produce them and represent them. But we do know that the super set of possible brain states is vast and the probabilities of landing on a specific sequence of brain states that might produce a specific series of coherent mental states would be very unkind to materialism’s brain-only hypothesis, if it could be done at all. Secondly, thoughts have no obvious material qualities at all and therefore cannot be quantified except by using a proxy calculation using symbolic language which would grossly understate the complexity involved and therefore be excessively charitable to materialism. But materialism would fail miserably nonetheless

 

NEO-DARWINISM

Absent an immaterial mind, materialism is left with the physical brain. The brain then has to account for everything we experience in our mental lives. This is an enormous burden. According to materialism, each quality of mind is underwritten by a physical process in the brain. The only explanation materialism has to offer as to how all these marvelous qualities of mind could have arisen (and arisen so quickly), is evolutionary theory–neo-darwinism. According to neo-darwinism each of these processes would have had to have been assembled piecemeal using the tandem mechanism of random mutation and natural selection. But there are serious problems with this that cannot be overcome, even in principle.

 

One obvious problem with an evolutionary accounting for the brain is that so many of the features and qualities of mind exhibit the signature of modern humanity. It is hard to accept that the brain could have been configured by evolution in the distant past to harbor a vast set of latent capabilities which when manifested would just happen to be useful in the context of 21st century humans. It is one thing to have the general capability for something but quite another thing to explain the specific causes that could bring forth vast quantities of novel, complex specified information spontaneously, continuously and near instantaneously and that offer value to modern humanity!

 

Secondly, in order for evolution to have produced a brain with the capabilities and qualities of mind we all experience, the physical processes which materialism purports gives rise to them in the brain would have to be encoded and stored in the DNA. These configurations might then be subject to “random mutational” changes such that they could be selected. However, the configurations for these processes cannot be identified or even inferred from the DNA. So where does all this complexity come from? And where is it stored? Think of it this way: If materialism is true and if science is the only pathway to truth, then it is reasonable to say that nature and in fact all reality is transparent to human reason. In effect, then, the brain could be said to have the capability of subsuming the complexity of all reality. Yet the complexity of the DNA–especially those more limited segments that produce the brain–is hopelessly insufficient to account for the total complexity of reality. Furthermore, this complexity would have had to have arisen throughout the lives of far too few individuals throughout the brief evolutionary period during which the descent of modern man is believed to have occurred.

 

SUMMARY

I have briefly sketched out the intractable difficulties of a materialist account involving the continuity of human thought. If any of this sounds at all plausible to you then let me suggest that you have been irreparably brainwashed by the scientism which has come to dominate Western academia.

 

If it is unreasonable to believe that these marvelous qualities of mind that we all experience continuously cannot be explained by an electro-chemical “machine” of sorts i.e. the brain, then we have to consider alternatives such as mind/brain dualism and dismiss materialism as a false hypothesis. And in fact it is unreasonable to believe that material processes in the brain could account for these qualities of mind. Setting aside the intractable difficulties in explaining how abstract thoughts are represented in the brain and rendered in consciousness or even what consciousness is, there is no reason to suspect that physical processes would have the foreknowledge to identify specific areas in the vastness of the brain that just happened to be readying themselves to produce a specific, coherent stream of thoughts that have meaning in human discourse. And there is also no reason to believe that it is likely or even possible for the brain–unaided by an immaterial mind–to arrange its components in such a way that it would generate a succession of complex, specified configurations continuously and unerringly throughout one’s life. These problems are fundamental and will not surrender to an entreaty to promissory materialism because foreknowledge and spontaneous generation of novel, continuous, complex, specified information is required and these cannot be accounted for by physical processes in the brain.

 

Let me close with a supreme example of human thought. To believe that the streams of thought Einstein must have experienced, as he sought the solution to the problems whose eventual resolution became a fundamental truth about reality–Relativity, happened as a result of continuous sequences of chance arrangements of molecular neural events, is such a draft on common sense that one would have to conclude–given the general acceptance of materialism–that any belief, no matter how foolish and no matter how contrary to direct human experience, could come to be accepted if wrapped in the sophistication of intellectualism and delivered with the full authority of science. One has to wonder at the irony as to how a method of inquiry–science–which has been spectacularly successful, with its intention to seek truth empirically through open rational inquiry, could lead us down a dead end path and become like that which it sought to counter–the tyranny of an overbearing institutional religion which itself had departed from its own charter.

 

Comments
nkendall @ 18,
You mention that memories fade, however, I am certain that if I were to view an old year book photo of a friend I had in second grade who had moved way and not seen since, I would still recognize them immediately. In fact even if he photo were badly faded I would still recognize this person immediately...
Yes, as would I under a similar test. Our memories are conditioned by seeing a face in hundreds of poses, lighting conditions, over long periods of time, etc. Our brains have a learning and pattern recognition capability that tolerates noise and varying inputs for the same face. We learn a range of possibilities, not a single, perfectly precise image. That's what allows us to recognize the face in the presence of fading, or even a new pose or angle that we never saw before and so on. And so such memories degrade gracefully--retaining the ability to associate the face with the name and all the other memories. As evidence that our memories are not perfectly precise is something that happens to me quite often. I will be shopping, and a song starts running through my head. I was not aware of what was being played over the store's sound system, but when I stop and focus on it, it turns out to be the exact song that began running through my head a minute earlier. The music entering my ears, although clouded by noise from other shoppers, was enough to trigger the memory of the right song. Importantly, on other occasions, the song turns out to be a more recent song that I'm unfamiliar with. Yet it triggered the memory of a familiar song. Upon listening more closely, I will pick out a bar or two with notes that are very similar or identical to the song I knew. The similarities were sufficient to trigger a false association. If that were to happen with a faded memory and a faded picture of a different child who merely resembled your friend, you could be fooled into thinking it was him. False memory syndrome works similarly. Perhaps this understanding of mine comes from having studied and used artificial neural networks, where one can witness the mathematical structures "learning" to classify patterns, with a definite ability to tolerate noise, slightly different inputs, etc., but to still recognize the intended target--most of the time. So along this line, it seems that a concept or idea could flow though my head with some less-than-perfect level of precision, varying slightly from one trip to the next, and changing as other thoughts are interwoven with it. So I'm thinking of thought as a fuzzy process, not a discrete one. (Hence the idea of one-to-one or one-to-many mappings never arises.) I'm not saying that any thought persists in our heads immutably with great precision, but that it is always a fuzzy process, from the first occurrence of the thought to a later recall. I.e., a general idea remains with us, but mixing with other thoughts and noise as time goes on. Returning to the neural aspect, a general thought or memory would be encoded somehow, but over time synaptic weights could vary slightly, but the overall thought and any associations it had could still be present. Thanks for your posts; they were thought-provoking.EDTA
May 20, 2015
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Hello RDFish @15 Let's step back. Instead of trading insults which has been fun, let me try and zero in on the differences we appear to have. First I will restate my view more broadly. Then approach the important differences we may have and then do a bit of clean up. I won't have time to address every point or comment you made. Approaching the important differences is a bit difficult because I cannot determine what you believe. You seldom seem to take a position. Maybe I have not had enough of an exchange. You are skeptical of everything except that Intelligent Design is ridiculous. Oddly, about that you are emphatic. I suppose when it comes right down to it, how do we know anything especially from a materialists perspective? From that perspective we have a brain which is purported to have been cobbled together by material processes; why would that be reliable? And I suppose there are reasons for being cautious about what we might discover in the future. But if you take skepticism to an extreme, which you might appear to, then any discussion is pointless. I made the assumption you were a materialist since you branded yourself as the "AIGuy" and made other comments which I often associate with materialism. Honest mistake. So I now understand that you are in the "undecided camp." What aspects of nature do you feel might involve immaterial causes? GENERAL RESTATEMENT Living systems are complex. I don't think anyone denies that. Complexity requires a cause. There are two broad categories proposed: 1) Teleology (Design), 2) Material or naturalistic causes. Materialists claim the design argument has been falsified because they feel they have discovered a mechanism to account for "apparent" design (complexity) in living systems--neo-Darwinism. A key point of their endeavor is to show that complexity can arise given enough opportunity (time and population size) and with a mechanism to filter out what is useful. I don't not except the commonly held view that you have to start from the materialist assumption. You should start with neither assumption; don't rule either one out. But that is what science has done. It is a method of inquiry that has transformed into an ideology and thereby excluded immaterial causation a priori. If a naturalistic explanation which purports to account for complexity of life fails; then materialism fails. If materialism fails then some other category of cause has to be invoked. I believe that the primary naturalistic account for the complexity of life--neo-Darwinism has failed. The more we learn the more untenable it has become. Virtually every key assumption of neo-Darwinism which their advocates have been telling us with the highest level of assurance for decades is true, has either been proven wrong or is in the process of being proven wrong. What I am doing is extending the design type arguments to include human thought, meaning that I am looking at my inner conscious experience and noting that thought processes are complex. They mirror reality. These thought processes--the qualities of mind--are the phenotype in a sense. I am making the claim that the human "mind"--primarily thought for now--exhibits massive amounts of complex specified information. It exhibits that in a few ways only two of which I am addressing. One way is the continuous stream of complex related thoughts that we experience daily. You sort of nitpick a bit about whether or not thought streams are continuous and related. If there were gaps in my consciousness and thoughts, I would notice them and remember them and I would notice them in other people during interactions and observation especially for example musicians and race car drivers, etc. Also, if it were the case that I had gaps in my conscious thought streams other people would notice them and they would have brought it to my attention. If gaps in conscious thoughts were common, it would be common knowledge. In any case even if there were a few gaps here or there it doesn't diminish my point. Similarly, although there are interruptions from our senses and internally from our inner thoughts that arise, generally our streams of thoughts are related in a coherent sequence. I used an example that once one sets out to think about a problem, after a few false starts and nudging, the mind brings forth a continuous stream of related thoughts. Do you deny this? Often these thoughts are novel, unique such as your ideas for inventions. If you have difficulty accepting the complexity of abstract thought streams during waking consciousness then read my piece on dreams which deals with imagery. Either way, that we experience a continuous stream of related thoughts (and images) (barring a few caveats and trivial exceptions) is remarkable--and exhibits a high degree of specified complexity. Do you deny this? This kind of thing doesn't just happen. It cries out for an explanation--a cause. Do you agree? Generally two things need to be explained: 1) Whether or not the phenomena of coherent, continuous thought streams can be explained purely through material causes, 2) Could this capability of the mind have arisen through neo-Darwinian (naturalistic) processes. (This is why the evolutionary arguments are not irrelevant as you seem to suggest.) I can only approach the first, for now. Regarding the the first of these, i.e. the possibility that the phenomena of continuous streams of complex, coherent thoughts can be explained purely through material causes, it seems one could either propose that the molecular interactions in the brain are entirely determined by physics and chemistry and follow strict local causation which just happen by chance to produce these marvelous qualities of mind. Or the molecular interactions in the brain are following some programmatic top-down set of material causes while still adhering to the local causal forces of physics and chemistry--the emergent model. Do you agree that these are the two material causal possibilities? If so which one do you advocate? If neither then please present an alternative. I need to know before I go any further. I don't want to make any more assumptions about what you believe. I don't have the time for that sort of treasure hunt. I think much of this might boil down to the following challenge which you presented in response to my statement: "My case is based on an in-principle argument related to complexity. In other words, regardless of how the brain might work, the spontaneous, instantaneous appearance of complex specified information is impossible in principle when limited to material causation." To which you responded with the reasonable challenge: "That isn’t an argument, it is a claim. In order to make an argument, you have to say why CSI is impossible in principle when limited to material causation. Start by explaining exactly what “material causation” is supposed to mean – does it mean, for example, “according to physical processes that we already understand”?" Yes of course I mean physical processes that we already understand. But in order to respond to your challenge I need you to answer the questions immediately above. ### MISCELLANEOUS CLEAN UP CHARACTER STRINGS When I ask you to show "how material processes can put together complex string of characters–continuously–that are comprehensible in human discourse" you say that, "I (you) am at this moment typing on a purely physical machine that can do this." Are you suggesting that by typing out a string of characters to a monitor that my point is negated? Be specific; what are you saying? AI AND INCREDULOUSNESS I stated, "A computer or a physical brain–unaided by any immaterial cause–could (not) have stitched together my sarcastic rant spontaneously and instantaneously." Then you list several functions that computers may or may not be able to do without saying which ones you believe they can or cannot. Please don't be coy. What are you saying? Are you saying that those functions you list that computers cannot current do, will some day be supported? Which ones? You then cite two reasons for not discounting the power of computers and presumably AI: "There are two problems with this sort of argument. First, they are nothing but arguments from incredulity (I don’t see how it could happen, therefore it can’t possibly happen). Second, they are often proven wrong (computers can currently do half of the things I’ve just listed, even though skeptics initially predicted otherwise, and progress in AI continues)." Incredulous arguments are usually correct. My guess is that for every prediction made by AI skeptics as to the limits of computer achievement that have been achieved by AI, there is at least one case where AI predictions have not come to pass and probably never will. The fact that AI skeptics are sometimes wrong is not an open invitation to accept every foolish thought that pops out of AI. Although it may be the case the people never would have thought that humans could run a 4 minute mile; nevertheless, this does not mean humans will be able to run a 1 minute mile. Aside from all that, any AI achievement is actually a human achievement. INTELLIGENT DESIGN I didn't say that you said Intelligent Design advocates should be given tenure; I said the opposite. You now have made it clear that you believe Intelligent Design is ridiculous and those advocating it should not be given tenure. Do I understand you correctly? Why not? You seem to deny that science only deals with material causes and further that, "Darwinian evolutionary processes (cannot) fully account for speciation and OOL" I am paraphrasing. And given that you claim you are not a materialist, which would imply that you feel it is possible that there are immaterial causes at work, then why make the statement that Intelligent Design is ridiculous? I am guessing that you believe that Intelligent Design is not science. But the scientific method requires falsification. Intelligent Design among other things seeks to falsify neo-Darwinism using mathematical probabilities and knowledge of biochemistry. If that is not science then what is it? To my knowledge there has never been a serious attempt to falsify neo-Darwinism except perhaps using population genetics which deals primarily with natural selection. But natural selection is a tautology and cannot be falsified. Since science has abdicated its role insofar it has not attempted to falsify neo-Darwinism, Intelligent Design has stepped up. For that they have received derision and scorn, except from folks like Thomas Nagel who correctly points out that Intelligent Design is serving an important purpose. DEEP BLUE When talking about thoughts you seem to be implying that Deep Blue thinks. Then you compare birds and airplanes in the context of flight. What are you saying? Are you saying that Deep Blue thinks in the same way humans do? CREATIVE THINKING When you said your brain incubates and provides creative thoughts, I said you were "ascribing top down, mind causation to a physical entity". You replied saying that "I have not given any reason to reject top-down causation in a physical mechanism"...and then referred me to the cognitive science Wiki article on incubation. Yes I have read that. But these factors they cite are simply labels to describe things we experience and know to be true without the aid of cognitive science telling us about them. They do not demonstrate that the top down causation is material. In fact it seems impossible that they could be material. Aside from that, there are cases where creative thoughts are entirely spontaneous such as in conversation and could not have been incubating. Please propose a possible material explanation for these even in principle using any possible assumption you want about how the brain might work. Use my "sarcastic rant" as an example. How could material causes in the brain possibly have produced that wonderful insult to Mr. RDFish?;-) Do you believe AI could achieve this and understand it? DUALISM I made the statement that, "Evolutionary theory, which posits purely naturalistic causation, i.e. random mutation and natural selection, is not at all compatible with dualism." You replied, "That is utter nonsense, and yet again you simply make a declaration without even an attempt to substantiate your position. Dualism does not deny physical causation of course!!!! Dualism allows that all sorts of phenomena are purely physical! Someone can very well hold dualism to be true, but at the same time consider that evolution accounts for complex biological systems via purely physical means. (They call some of these people “theological evolutionists” of course)." I did not say dualism denied physical causation. But it might have been better to have left out the words "at all." Let me clarify some terms and add a caveat. "Theistic" evolutionists, typically do not believe in the dualism in the sense that an immaterial mind interacts with the physical brain which is what I am advocating. Read Neuroscience and the Person for example. Theistic evolutionists generally believe that a physical mind emerges from the physical brain--supervenes on the physical brain. If you are referring to property dualism then, yes, neo-Darwinism would be compatible with that. One of the important points of Nagel's book is that if consciousness cannot be explained through material causes then the entire Darwinian edifice collapses and with it materialism. By inference then some other category of cause would have to be invoked--dualism would be one such inference. ### I said, "The explanatory power of an immaterial mind is nearly infinite" and you replied, "Another groundless claim. Please describe one single empirical test that will demonstrate the truth of dualism. No, dualism is not science because it cannot make testable predictions for anything at all." A single verified near death experience with an out of body experience would disprove materialism and confirm dualism. There are hundreds if not thousands of such cases. Have they been verified? Hard to tell. They are subjective but there are objective aspects to them that are the basis of empirical verification especially related to out of body experiences and shared death experiences. Many think they have several confirmed cases with time anchors and corroborated evidence that person were observing their own resuscitation while their brains were completely flat lined. I have read many of them. At some point you have would have to accept the testimony of another unless you had one yourself. But there are many of them, and these folks are not crackpots; it is worth the investigation. The hallucination theory does not seem to wash and even if they are hallucinations (some cannot be) they go a long way toward disproving materialism for the same reason dreams do. MEMORY I made the statement: "You say it is really not the case that our minds are always filled and then busy yourself talking about memory." You responded by saying, "...How can you possibly know what you were thinking about a moment ago without remembering it?" You have a point here; I should not have included that last clause. But I am certain that my thoughts are continuous. Have you ever experienced any gaps in your thoughts? FREE WILL Do you believe we have free will?nkendall
May 20, 2015
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Hello EDTA @3 Regarding your first paragraph, I don't think I was not clear enough. I was not referring to real space but rather metaphorically to name or character space. Think of synonyms such as "inclination" and "propensity", both have similar meanings ("adjacent" in meaning) but are not "adjacent" in name/character space. Regarding your second set of comments, you are agreeing that thoughts (let's say a concept) is highly specific but you appear to be saying that they could be represented physically in different ways in the brain. On the surface that appears to be at odds with materialism. How could one claim that the overall concept persisted immutably yet the underlying neural sequence changed? This would be a many to one relationship between the physical level and the mental level. It would not therefore conform the predictability or falsification which are requirements of materialism and therefore science. Or are you saying there is a many to many relationship where there are several renditions of the concept at the mental level with each represented by a distinct underlying physical arrangement of components in the brain? If this is what you are saying, then under materialism, there would have to be a cause as to how the physical brain could magically transform the underlying neural signature while keeping the overall concept intact albeit rendered in slightly different ways. There are a host of other problems related to that but I will have to leave it at that for now. You mention that memories fade, however, I am certain that if I were to view an old year book photo of a friend I had in second grade who had moved way and not seen since, I would still recognize them immediately. In fact even if he photo were badly faded I would still recognize this person immediately even were it the case that I had never seen the photo before. But if materialists are correct and the brain is computational then one would think that the putative "recognition" program would have to achieve an exact match or nearly exact. Aside from the obvious difficulties with that in terms of achieving a match for something which might not even be in memory and computational time and propagation delay etc, it does seem to suggest that memories must persist intact over long periods of time. Sorry I am bit short on time. I hope I addressed your questions.nkendall
May 20, 2015
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Everyone who engages in rational inquiry assumes to be a free person who is in control of her/his thoughts and to be responsible for the outcome. Everyone assumes rationality to be a process during which data and thoughts are ordered in an overarching context under supervision and control of an agent. Everyone assumes to be a person who controls, weighs and orders data and thoughts—top-down. This axiomatic concept of rationality is foundational to any rational inquiry—science included. Please note that “free person”, “thoughts” and “top-down control” are non-materialistic concepts. Some self-proclaimed materialists don’t realize that—given materialistic premises—incorporation of aforementioned theistic concept of rationality is not an option. It’s not an option for a materialist to say: “I agree with the theist that there is a responsible free person in control of his thoughts, we just disagree on what things are made of.” If materialism is true then rationality as we understand it—in which we have put our hopes and trust—can only be an illusion. If materialism is true, then rationality is not a top-down process, but a bottom-up process determined by natural law. If chemicals, instead of persons, are behind the steering wheel of reason, we have to arrive at a fully revised understanding of rationality, that is, if we are to assume that such an attempt to revise understanding makes sense under materialism.Box
May 20, 2015
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RDFish @15 Be back at you some time today. A lot to cover.nkendall
May 20, 2015
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Hi nkendall,
In a sense it is like asking you to show how material processes can put together complex string of characters–continuously–that are comprehensible in human discourse.
I am at this moment typing on a purely physical machine that can do this.
You have nipped around the edges and really not addressed that point. You need to be specific on how it is possible making some assumptions about how the brain might do this.
Need I explain how computers can construct novel, grammatical, meaningful sentences in response to novel input? I can explain it to you at any level of abstraction you'd like, from how natural language understanding programs are constructed to how logic gates operate inside processor chips.
Well done Mr Fish! Clever and I appreciate the smiley face.
Thank you indeed. I really wasn't trying to be disrespectful; I just couldn't resist.
They are going to start with the big shots, Hawking, Gates, Wozniak, Fish…
Of the people you mentioned, I am the only one who has done research in AI. Hawking is a physicist, Gates an operating systems programmer and businessman, and Wozniak an electrical engineer. It appears you have never read a single thing by anyone in the field of artificial intelligence - is that the case? And how about philosophy of mind, the topic of your OP here? Have you ever read dualist arguments? Physicalist arguments? Idealist arguments? Anyone? Ever?
Tell me how a computer or a physical brain–unaided by any immaterial cause–could have stitched together my sarcastic rant spontaneously and instantaneously. It is flat out impossible my friend.
This argument against AI is the first that naive critics usually come up with: AI is impossible because a computer could never do X, where "X" may be 1) understand a joke 2) write a poem 3) fall in love 4) design a novel machine 5) experience consciousness 6) compose a symphony 7) do something it wasn't programmed to do 8) do something "spontaneously and instantaneously" 9) invent a mathematical theorem and prove it 10) make a moral judgement 11) diagnose diseases 12) beat human beings at Jeopardy and chess and so on. There are two problems with this sort of argument. First, they are nothing but arguments from incredulity (I don't see how it could happen, therefore it can't possibly happen). Second, they are often proven wrong (computers can currently do half of the things I've just listed, even though skeptics initially predicted otherwise, and progress in AI continues).
You claim it is not true that thoughts are always or generally related to one another in a stream. Mine are.
How do you know? Because that is how you remember it? :-)
A physical brain cannot do that.
Declarations are not arguments - you actually have to say why you think this is true. Otherwise, the rebuttal is simply "Says who?".
How does a new thought come “out of the blue” given your postulate that there is only a physical brain? Mr Fish that is impossible!
No, it is not impossible. Psychologists have long recognized that a great deal of cognition occurs without conscious awareness. We are only conscious of certain things that are going on in our brain, not everything. While we are consciously thinking about riding our bike or cooking a meal, our brain is busy searching for answers to problems that we had set out to work on previously, and this mental processing occurs "in the background", without our conscious awareness. "Out of the blue" here does not suggest they come from the sky, or from another dimension, or from the spirit world. Rather, it means that ideas come into our conscious awareness without immediate conscious precursor - precisely opposite of what you claim. See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incubation_%28psychology%29
The mind has this marvelous ability to queue up thoughts that are related to what one is interested in and produce an internal interrupt of sorts to shove it up into your consciousness.
Funny that you are using computer jargon to describe mental phenomena, no?
How on earth could a material mechanism just happen to produce that unique, creative, coherent, complex thought which was of interest to you in the time frame of your need?
Again, you are expressing amazement and incredulity. This is not an argument.
How many neurons would have had to have fired at just the right time and just the right place to create that thought (under the rather dubious assumption that neurons firing could produce a thought in the first place). Do you have any idea of how complex something like that would be?
Again, you are expressing amazement and incredulity. This is not an argument. By the way, do you have any idea how complex brains are? If they aren't used for thinking, what exactly are they used for?
You are waving a magic materialist wand.
I am not a materialist, and I have already told you very explicitly that nobody knows how brains work, how thought occurs, or if brains are sufficient to support cognition and/or conscious awareness. I am not waving any magic wands. On the contrary, I object to those who wave the magic wand of dualism, which purports to "explain" thought and consciousness but never does any such thing. And I object to your unsupported claim that you have some principled reason to deny that physical processes can be sufficient for thought. And by the way, let's please define what "thought" means. We can agree on what we mean by "consciousness" - we each experience this subjectively. But "thought" can mean all sorts of things. When human grandmasters play chess they talk about thinking about their strategy. Now that computers outplay people, why don't you think computers think about their strategy too - even if they are not consciously aware that they are thinking? As my friend Drew McDermott famously said, "Saying that [the chess-playing computer] Deep Blue can't think about chess is like saying airplanes can't fly because they don't flap their wings".
There is no cause that you could cite involving an evolutionary explanation; nothing that could have been queued up or cooked up by some evolutionary method.
Irrelevant - I'm not talking about evolutionary explanations of anything.
So you are left with spontaneous appearance of creative complexity.
Again, creativity is not spontaneous - it just often feels like that because all of the heavy lifting is accomplished by mental processes of which we are not consciously aware.
Explain the material causation for that. Be specific please, no hand waving, no “well we don’t know how the brain works,” explain how it is even possible in principle.
What do you mean? My point is that we have no explanation of how thought occurs. I am not waving hands.
By the way…how does the brain “work away” on a problem?
For the Nth time: Nobody knows how brains work. We know at the most abstract level that it processes information and solves problems, and at the most fundamental level we know a lot about basic neurophysiology, brain anatomy, localization of function, mechanisms for neural synchrony and integration, and so on. It's been a bit like if we didn't understand how a computer works and trying to figure it out by opening up the box and poking at the chips with a screwdriver.
You are ascribing top down, mind causation to a physical entity.
No I'm not - I just said you haven't given any reason to reject the possibility of top-down causation in a physical mechanism.
Mr Fish, Your comparison with computers shows that you are very confused. I don’t think you understand what I am saying. The states of a computer are all predetermined by the human programmer from the top down.
Don't call me confused, especially when you are so confused, and the next thing you say is so ridiculous - for not one but two different reasons: 1) There is no inconsistency between determinism and outputing coherent text strings. 2) Computer states are certinaly not predetermined by programmers, since they can be affected both both external input and internal stochastic components.
You have disqualified yourself.
Clearly only one of us is qualified to discuss AI, and it isn't you.
Explain to me how a computer without any software...
???? What???? First, it makes no difference to this discussion what is implemented in software, hardware, or firmware. Second, what are you trying to say when you "without any software"? I think what you are trying to get at is that the coherent text strings must be written by a human programmer instead of by the computer itself. I'm sorry, but you have no clue as to what you are talking about - you just don't understand the first thing about computers. Computers that output natural language text are not merely pre-programmed with specific sentences. There are no chatbots that can pass the Turing test, but that doesn't mean you have some principled reason to imagine there will never be.
For that matter show me how a programmed computer could produce a complex sequence of coherent novel string of characters.
Fine - but if I explain this to you, will you concede that you were wrong about everything in your post and admit that nobody has any empirical reason to say that materialism is false?
You say it is really not the case that our minds are always filled and then busy yourself talking about memory.
You also haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about when it comes to cognitive science. How can you possibly know what you were thinking about a moment ago without remembering it?
Well what can I say, in my many years I have never had a case where my mind was blank.
How do you know? Perhaps because you remember that your mind is always occupied? And you think memory has nothing to do with this discussion? :-) Perhaps you should read an introductory book on cognitive psychology. It is a fascinating field, and I think you'd enjoy it, and afterward you wouldn't say these silly things.
All I have to do is find one brain (mind) that can produce any simple coherent sequence of thoughts and that far exceeds the probabilistic resources of the known universe.
Utter nonsense. Sorry, but it really is. It's like saying cars can't possibly drive themselves because it defies the laws of physics.
No, people that believe consciousness is an intractable problem are not necessarily poor philosophers.
That isn't what I said!! I myself happen to believe that consciousness is an intractable problem!! What I said was that those who believe that the fact that consciousness has not yet been (or may never be) explained and understood somehow disproves materialism are poor philosophers. You are a very poor philosopher. But people who think consciousness is intractable (such as Colin McGinn) are very good philosophers.
It always amazes me that materialists like yourself are so sure that materialism is true...
Read everything I've said - nothing I ever say implies that I am a materialist, because I am not a materialist. I am not arguing that materialism is true - I am rebutting your claim that we can show materialism is false. My position is that the mind/body problem is unsolved.
My case is based on an in-principle argument related to complexity. In other words, regardless of how the brain might work, the spontaneous, instantaneous appearance of complex specified information is impossible in principle when limited to material causation.
That isn't an argument, it is a claim. In order to make an argument, you have to say why CSI is impossible in principle when limited to material causation. Start by explaining exactly what "material causation" is supposed to mean - does it mean, for example, "according to physical processes that we already understand"?
That’s why goofs like Dawkins go to great pains to talk about gradualism and climbing the gentle slope and other nonsense that has already been disproven.
This is completely irrelevant to our discussion.
You guys...
Excuse me? Us guys? Now you assume I believe that Darwinian evolutionary processes fully account for speciation and OOL? Wrong again I'm afraid - I believe nothing of the sort.
Regarding proteins…okay explain how the folding of proteins could have evolved as quickly as it has.
You want to change the subject to evolution, but that was not the topic of your OP, nor have I ever mentioned a single thing about it, nor do I believe that Darwinian evolution accounts for biological systems. How about we set that aside, huh?
You claim it is “silly” and conspiratorial to think that, “materialism’s grip on Western thought has conditioned the educated class into thinking that there are no plausible alternatives to a brain-only hypothesis of human consciousness and intellect.”
Yes, very silly - I gave you counter-examples.
Try getting tenure as an ID guy...
I didn't say philosophers and scientists who advocate ID as a science should be given tenure - they shouldn't, because ID is not at all scientific - it is ridiculous.
You argument is circular: Science is the only way to truth;
Do you ever get tired of building strawmen? I never said this either. If you continue to make up both sides of this debate it will become even more pointless. Why don't you try responding to what I actually say instead?
...science deals only with material causation;
I never said this either, and it is not true a priori.
...dualism posits non material causation;
Well yes, this is true.
... therefore dualism is not science because it cannot make testable predictions for material causation.
No, dualism is not science because it cannot make testable predictions for anything at all.
The explanatory power of an immaterial mind is nearly infinite.
Another groundless claim. Please describe one single empirical test that will demonstrate the truth of dualism.
Your claim that, “Evolutionary theory is completely compatible with mind/body dualism OR physicalism, but ID is only compatible with dualism” shows that you are very confused again.
Only if by "confused" you mean "obviously correct".
Evolutionary theory, which posits purely naturalistic causation, i.e. random mutation and natural selection, is not at all compatible with dualism.
That is utter nonsense, and yet again you simply make a declaration without even an attempt to substantiate your position. Dualism does not deny physical causation of course!!!! Dualism allows that all sorts of phenomena are purely physical! Someone can very well hold dualism to be true, but at the same time consider that evolution accounts for complex biological systems via purely physical means. (They call some of these people "theological evolutionists" of course).
There is no point in responding to the rest of your paragraph except: No support for free will? Really! Explain the causation involved that resulted in your responding to this post. It was preprogrammed, random…?
You have obviously not studied a single argument either for or against libertarianism, so let's not start on that, OK?
Best regards Mr Fish. I hope you take this in the spirit it was offered.
Likewise, Mr. Kendall. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 19, 2015
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mahuna All that happens to you is a minor interference with the triggering mechanism fort the memory. Not the memory but the triggering mechanism. since you post here it must be very minor. Lord bless.Robert Byers
May 19, 2015
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EDTA @3, Thanks for your questions and insights. I hope to get back to you by the end of the day. Best regards.nkendall
May 19, 2015
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RDFish @ 7 I will make some general comments and then address some of your key specific points. I do not have time to respond in detail to every thing you said nor is it necessary. My claim is that material processes cannot account for the continuous sequence of complex, coherent related thoughts. (I don't believe that brain only can account for thoughts or consciousness either but that is not the case I am making now). You need to show that this very small set of specific arrangements that would produce useful thoughts could occur even in principle given all the other arrangements possible. In a sense it is like asking you to show how material processes can put together complex string of characters--continuously--that are comprehensible in human discourse. You have nipped around the edges and really not addressed that point. You need to be specific on how it is possible making some assumptions about how the brain might do this. Here are some specific comments in no particular order. You find my comment: "Simply put, physical processes in the brain cannot possibly have any way of knowing what set of physical sequences in the brain would give rise to coherent mental sequences of thought" amusing and say: "I’d have to say this particular sentence is evidence that sometimes, some brains fail to give rise to coherent mental sequences of thought." Well done Mr Fish! Clever and I appreciate the smiley face. Something just occurred to me. I think your other point about the gaps in one's thoughts (which I will get to) may have some validity. I think there could be gaps. I have a new theory. The gaps in one's thoughts are the times when some nefarious computer in a distant lab has hacked into someone's brain and planted the extraordinarily foolish idea that computers will one day achieve consciousness and human like thought and gain control of humanity. They are going to start with the big shots, Hawking, Gates, Wozniak, Fish...and work there way down to dim bulbs like Kendall. I have no other explanation as to how an otherwise intelligent person could believe such a canard and why I have not experienced any gaps in my thoughts. Tell me how a computer or a physical brain--unaided by any immaterial cause--could have stitched together my sarcastic rant spontaneously and instantaneously. It is flat out impossible my friend. ### You claim it is not true that thoughts are always or generally related to one another in a stream. Mine are. Of course there are interruptions but I want to ask you if when trying to solve a problem while driving for example, if it is not the case that your brain (I say mind) produces a string of thoughts related to that problem? Does it not? That's what I am saying. A physical brain cannot do that. You comment that: "We often get new thoughts “out of the blue”. As an inventor, I would often work for days on a difficult problem, only to find that the solution would come to me “unbidden” while I was thinking about something else, or about nothing at all. This is a very common experience – people report this all the time. The reason it happens is because most of our thinking occurs without conscious awareness. Our brain is working away on the problem, but we become conscious of our thoughts only at certain times." Your response has proven my point. I could not have asked for a better demonstration. How does a new thought come "out of the blue" given your postulate that there is only a physical brain? Mr Fish that is impossible! That is a part of my point. The mind has this marvelous ability to queue up thoughts that are related to what one is interested in and produce an internal interrupt of sorts to shove it up into your consciousness. How on earth could a material mechanism just happen to produce that unique, creative, coherent, complex thought which was of interest to you in the time frame of your need? How many neurons would have had to have fired at just the right time and just the right place to create that thought (under the rather dubious assumption that neurons firing could produce a thought in the first place). Do you have any idea of how complex something like that would be? You are waving a magic materialist wand. If you are an inventor then this thought that came out of the blue is something entirely new. There is no cause that you could cite involving an evolutionary explanation; nothing that could have been queued up or cooked up by some evolutionary method. So you are left with spontaneous appearance of creative complexity. Explain the material causation for that. Be specific please, no hand waving, no "well we don't know how the brain works," explain how it is even possible in principle. By the way...how does the brain "work away" on a problem? You are ascribing top down, mind causation to a physical entity. How would it know to work on a problem that you have and arrive at a creative solution for it? Impossible Mr Fish. Thanks for proving my point. ### You ask "why in the world not" could our brain not "be expected or necessitated in any way to produce a coherent, continuous sequences of related thoughts that were recognizable to our conscious experience." You then cite computers: "Take a process that we all agree is strictly material: the running of a computer program. The states of the computer are determined by the prior causal chain of electronic events, and they produce a coherent, continuous sequence of related processes that can perform all sorts of tasks – not a jumble of unrelated actions." Mr Fish, Your comparison with computers shows that you are very confused. I don't think you understand what I am saying. The states of a computer are all predetermined by the human programmer from the top down. You have disqualified yourself. Explain to me how a computer without any software could put together a continuous sequence of coherent text strings. For that matter show me how a programmed computer could produce a complex sequence of coherent novel string of characters. ### You say it is really not the case that our minds are always filled and then busy yourself talking about memory. Well what can I say, in my many years I have never had a case where my mind was blank. Others I have asked say the same. Those few who say their mind was blank on further reflection indicate that there minds were really not blank but there were between thought streams--a transition. But that there was always something going on. Doesn't matter that much. The threshold of failure in this case for me is very low for. All I have to do is find one brain (mind) that can produce any simple coherent sequence of thoughts and that far exceeds the probabilistic resources of the known universe. Material causation unaided by mind cannot do that. Again, find a computer that can produce a complex, coherent sequence of words using purely random or deterministic methods. Or assemble your team of monkeys. I will give you all the time in the universe to reproduce that creative thought of yours that came "out of the blue" even just the characters for it. I would not dream of asking you to produce the thought itself although as an inventor, why not give it the old college try. ### You disagree that "materialism’s reductionist accounting of human intellect requires strict adherence to bottom up causation" because you say, "we don’t know how brains work." Materialism, you say...simply holds that whatever downward causality exists does not involve non-physical processes (although the physical processes may in fact be unlike any that we currently understand)." Yes it does. Even if we assume a material mind arises from the brain, the causation is bottom up--then top down. Let me humor you, go ahead and put together a coherent theory of an emergent material mind. Post it here as a guest post. It will be like running through the woods naked. ### No, people that believe consciousness is an intractable problem are not necessarily poor philosophers. They just have an open mind and a realistic assessment about physical causation. Why don't you get us started on a theory of how it is even possible in principle for a physical process to produce consciousness and complex thought. Include it as part of my suggestion for your guest post. It always amazes me that materialists like yourself are so sure that materialism is true but then claim we have no idea how the brain works. Which is it? My case is based on an in-principle argument related to complexity. In other words, regardless of how the brain might work, the spontaneous, instantaneous appearance of complex specified information is impossible in principle when limited to material causation. That's why goofs like Dawkins go to great pains to talk about gradualism and climbing the gentle slope and other nonsense that has already been disproven. You guys used to understand that material process require chance and lots and lots of time to produce complex things. I guess as the fact that the complexity of life has increased dramatically and the time over which it would have had to have occurred has shrunk, has caused you to re-evaluate and your position which now appears to be: "Hey you know what?...maybe very complex things (like out of the blue solutions for inventions) can arise instantaneously...why were we restricting ourselves to slow, chance, piecemeal, ponderous causation? How exhilarating!" Regarding proteins...okay explain how the folding of proteins could have evolved as quickly as it has. Explain how life seems to have hit on a very small set of proteins that just happen to fold up and do anything useful given the vast number that would not fold up to do anything at all. Can you point me to a paper that shows that is possible? ### You claim it is "silly" and conspiratorial to think that, "materialism’s grip on Western thought has conditioned the educated class into thinking that there are no plausible alternatives to a brain-only hypothesis of human consciousness and intellect." Try getting tenure as an ID guy or openly promoting dualism and theism these days. Nagel has probably been harboring these thoughts for years. So now that he is older it is safe to disclose what he really believes and what is plainly obvious--materialism is bunk. Then you claim that: "...dualism isn’t popular is because (1) it makes no testable predictions, (2) it doesn’t really help explain anything. We don’t learn anything by positing that something beyond what we understand is involvedunless we have something specific and consequential to say about what it is that is involved! Dualism fails to provide this." You argument is circular: Science is the only way to truth; science deals only with material causation; dualism posits non material causation; therefore dualism is not science because it cannot make testable predictions for material causation. I have been subjected to this circular reasoning carousel so many times before that I use an ear patch in preparation for responding to posts. The explanatory power of an immaterial mind is nearly infinite. ### Your claim that, "Evolutionary theory is completely compatible with mind/body dualism OR physicalism, but ID is only compatible with dualism" shows that you are very confused again. Evolutionary theory, which posits purely naturalistic causation, i.e. random mutation and natural selection, is not at all compatible with dualism. There is no point in responding to the rest of your paragraph except: No support for free will? Really! Explain the causation involved that resulted in your responding to this post. It was preprogrammed, random...? ### Asking my why I did not start with "Therefore, materialism is left with either blind chance or determinism neither of which could possibly produce the rich mental lives we all experience" indicates that you did not fully understand what I am saying. There is nothing left to say. Best regards Mr Fish. I hope you take this in the spirit it was offered.nkendall
May 19, 2015
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RDFish @ 7 Will get you a response at lunch. Good day.nkendall
May 19, 2015
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RDFish: ID is only compatible with dualism. False.Mung
May 19, 2015
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BA77 @ 5 Great find - thank you!Silver Asiatic
May 19, 2015
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Yeah, well, don't get old. Old Timer's Disease is scary. Several years back, I started having the problem that in the middle of a sentence I would simply forget what point I was trying to make. And when I looked inside my head (probably the Conscious one, to look at the physical one you need a drill and a couple mirrors...) I saw only empty black. Couldn't remember ANY of the conversation. This still happens only occasionally, but I regularly find myself in the kitchen with NO IDEA what I was going to do when I got there. So, as with cars, Continuity of Thought simply begins to wear out after you hit 100,000 miles. And the more miles you rack up, the more Discontinuity you have. Stare at a photo and have no idea who the people in it are. Or where it was taken. Or why...mahuna
May 19, 2015
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From the OP:
Have you ever noticed that your mind is always presented with a continuous stream of related thoughts? There are seldom, if ever, any gaps where your mind is blank.
This isn't really the case; rather, we form memories only when we think of something, so in our memory there are no gaps. The timing and sequence of events in our memory is demonstrably not the same as we experience them. Temporal synchrony is one example: When you think an event has occurred, it has already happened around 80 milliseconds in the past... except when your memory rearranges itself to make reality more sensible. Think of how when you stamp your foot on the floor you see, hear, and feel your foot hit the floor at the exact same moment. But it takes an appreciable amount more time for the nerve impulses carrying the touch sensation to reach your brain than input from your optic nerves, so why don't we experience a lag in the touch sense? Because our memory alters the timing of what we experience. There are many clever experiments that reveal this and other, different sorts of mis-remembering we do as part of perception and thought.
Remarkably, barring interruption, each distinct thought in a sequence of thoughts is related to the adjacent thoughts in time; those before and after and in the context of one’s experiences.
Not true in the least! We often get new thoughts "out of the blue". As an inventor, I would often work for days on a difficult problem, only to find that the solution would come to me "unbidden" while I was thinking about something else, or about nothing at all. This is a very common experience - people report this all the time. The reason it happens is because most of our thinking occurs without conscious awareness. Our brain is working away on the problem, but we become conscious of our thoughts only at certain times.
It is not known how thoughts could arise in the brain, how they could be represented in the brain or how they could be rendered in our consciousness much less what consciousness is.
Yes, this is all true. Nor is it known if conscious awareness is what causes our thoughts or if it is merely our perception of (some of) our thoughts. Again, it is clear that a great deal of our thinking, and a great deal of our behavior, all happens without our conscious awareness.
For many people these intractable problems are enough to dismiss materialism from the start.
These people you speak of are certainly not good philosophers. We don't know how brains work, but that doesn't provide any argument against materialism of course - it doesn't mean that something besides the operation of the brain is involved. We don't know how proteins fold into functional 3D conformations, but that doesn't mean that some immaterial spirit infuses our cells and arranges our polypeptides.
But materialism’s grip on Western thought has conditioned the educated class into thinking that there are no plausible alternatives to a brain-only hypothesis of human consciousness and intellect.
This is silly. There is no conspiracy afoot, and nobody prohibits anyone from trying out any sort of hypothesis they would like of course. Roger Penrose is an esteemed physicist, and he believes that something outside of the brain is involved in our conscious thought. He just hasn't gotten very far providing evidence that such is the case. As for the philosophers and theologians who argue for dualistic ontologies, there's no problem with that at all, and nobody kicks you out of the university for that (cf. Chalmers, Fesser, Nagel, Jackson, and so on). The reason dualism isn't popular is because (1) it makes no testable predictions, (2) it doesn't really help explain anything. We don't learn anything by positing that something beyond what we understand is involved unless we have something specific and consequential to say about what it is that is involved! Dualism fails to provide this.
Materialism’s reductionist accounting of human intellect requires strict adherence to bottom up causation.
No, it doesn't. Again, we don't know how brains work. Materialism by your own definition is merely a negative hypothesis, that nothing but the brain is involved in thought. Materialism isn't a theory of cognition, nor does it rule out processes that that are not "strictly bottom up". It simply holds that whatever downward causality exists does not involve non-physical processes (although the physical processes may in fact be unlike any that we currently understand).
But if our thoughts are produced and determined by the prior causal chain of neural events in the brain then they would not be expected or necessitated in any way to produce a coherent, continuous sequences of related thoughts that were recognizable to our conscious experience.
Why in the world not? Take a process that we all agree is strictly material: the running of a computer program. The states of the computer are determined by the prior causal chain of electronic events, and they produce a coherent, continuous sequence of related processes that can perform all sorts of tasks - not a jumble of unrelated actions.
Simply put, physical processes in the brain cannot possibly have any way of knowing what set of physical sequences in the brain would give rise to coherent mental sequences of thought.
I'd have to say this particular sentence is evidence that sometimes, some brains fail to give rise to coherent mental sequences of thought :-)
Therefore, materialism is left with either blind chance or determinism neither of which could possibly produce the rich mental lives we all experience.
And here you decide to simply assume your conclusion. Why didn't you just write this single sentence instead of this long post, which is obviated by this single question-begging declaration? I think I'll stop here, having given ample reason to discard the arguments presented here. Going any further would just be piling on. The interesting question here is this: What is the relevance of dualism to theories of origins? Evolutionary theory is completely compatible with mind/body dualism OR physicalism, but ID is only compatible with dualism. This is why ID proponents go to such extraordinary lengths to convince themselves and others that there is somehow empirical support for mind/body dualism and libertarian free will. There is no such empirical support, of course, and so these questions remain in the domain of philosophical speculation. Since ID is predicated on the truth of these metaphysical claims, ID is itself a theory of metaphysics and not empirical science. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 18, 2015
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A good thread on how it seems impossible that we are anything but a soul and not a chemical reaction engine. In all thedse things I would caution that we are meshed to a great memory machine. in fact i would say the bible says the MIND is just a memory organ. its the soul/heart that does the thinking and this is immaterial. The memory is material and is exclusively what is affected by any issues in human thought. Like drugs/illness, etc. Our thoughts are always connected to our memories.Robert Byers
May 18, 2015
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Tim as to strong AI, you may find this interesting: Consciousness Does Not Compute (and Never Will), Says Korean Scientist - May 05, 2015 Excerpt: "Non-computability of Consciousness" documents Song's quantum computer research into TS (technological singularity (TS) or strong artificial intelligence). Song was able to show that in certain situations, a conscious state can be precisely and fully represented in mathematical terms, in much the same manner as an atom or electron can be fully described mathematically. That's important, because the neurobiological and computational approaches to brain research have only ever been able to provide approximations at best. In representing consciousness mathematically, Song shows that consciousness is not compatible with a machine. Song's work also shows consciousness is not like other physical systems like neurons, atoms or galaxies. "If consciousness cannot be represented in the same way all other physical systems are represented, it may not be something that arises out of a physical system like the brain," said Song. "The brain and consciousness are linked together, but the brain does not produce consciousness. Consciousness is something altogether different and separate. The math doesn't lie." Of note: Daegene Song obtained his Ph.D. in physics from the University of Oxford http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/consciousness-does-not-compute-and-never-will-says-korean-scientist-300077306.htmlbornagain77
May 18, 2015
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EDTA@3, I appreciate your measured criticisms; however, it is important to take a close look at precisely what you have written. You make use of the idea of underlying neural firing sequences (from encoded neurons) which call to mind thoughts of your cousins. But then immediately following that, you write of conceiv(ing) the insight and how it was determined by the neural firing. On strict materialism, though, how can you say that these thoughts are in any meaningful way "yours" in the same way that you are self-consciously you? "You" did not direct or control the firings, although some other neural net may have, again on materialism, but this just pushes down the determinism. To have written that more precisely, it should be put: I couldn't have possibly experienced what seemed to be my insights . . . However, as long as we are truly conceiving ideas, materialism should be rejected. I do not wish to bore everybody with my fascination with the theoretical underpinnings of universal Turing machines, suffice to say, much of the OP tangos with it. On materialism, neural nets = reader/marker brain states = marked tape discrete thoughts = movement along tape, inexorably linear, inexorably reactive. self, absent. Our experience, see OP. self, see OP. nkendall@2, nice work on the necessary, but not sufficient cause clause. I am of the belief that on materialism ALL computers including our brains are physical embodiments of utms and can be nothing more. One of our critics here, eigenstate, says that even on materialism, this is not true. I found his arguments referencing strong AI and other ideas completely unpersuasive. Do you have any thoughts on this? thanks in advance, I enjoyed your original post.Tim
May 18, 2015
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Very interesting, as was your post on dreams.
Therefore, the thoughts that appear in our conscious awareness are entirely determined by the prior local causal chain of molecular neural events. But if our thoughts are produced and determined by the prior causal chain of neural events in the brain then they would not be expected or necessitated in any way to produce a coherent, continuous sequences of related thoughts that were recognizable to our conscious experience. There would be no expectation that adjacent brain states (similar configurations) would result in “adjacent” (tightly related) mental states.
This doesn't seem quite right. Is it not possible that most of our thoughts are in fact spatially localized? So a chain of thoughts might be a series of neural activations that proceed spatially through some part of my brain. For instance, as I sit here, I can see a photo of some cousins. As I dwell on that, I think of the sound of their voices, and things we have done together. Why couldn't those memories be encoded into neurons that are spatially near each other? This would give these thoughts continuity and consistency as I remember these things on separate occasions.
Imagine an insight that you have had or bit of knowledge that you have acquired. Then think of the innumerable ways in which it could be slightly modified even in very subtle ways. Each version of this insight would have–must have if materialism is true–a slightly different underlying neural signature otherwise they would not be distinguishable from thoughts which were slightly different.
True, but each of those slight modifications might indeed be caused by a slightly different underlying neural firing sequence, and cause slightly different subsequent firings. When I have a particular insight, I don't imagine that it has any particular amount of specificity, in the sense that I couldn't have possibly conceived the insight any differently than I did. And when I encounter that thought again tomorrow, the sequence of neural firings will surely differ from today's in subtle ways. And tomorrow, I won't be able to quantify how different that conception is from today's. In other words, although my exact thoughts at this moment do have very high specificity (in terms of ion concentrations, synaptic weightings and so on), the very flexibility and malleability of the brain implies that lots of nearby brain states would do just as well. Tomorrow, the specificity will have degraded, and it won't matter. Memories that we have not recalled in years are in fact fading (whether we want to admit that as we age or not), as the brain repurposes those neurons for new memories. I don't claim to know how my soul interacts with my physical mind; I'm just not sure that materialism can be rejected with the particular line of reasoning here.EDTA
May 18, 2015
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Hi Jim @1 Regarding your question in the first paragraph: Yes the brain can affect the mind. The brain is a necessary but not sufficient cause for mental phenomena--that is my view. I am always surprise that materialists continuously bring this up as an unassailable and decisive factor in the mind/brain debate. The only caveat to this are the near death experiences where the brain appears to be neither sufficient or necessary. But these are subjective and until I have one, there will always be some doubt in my mind about what they are. As to how brain physiology can affect thoughts, one could propose all sorts of analogies, software/hardware, musician/musical instrument, radio signal/radio receiver. Damage or perturb the hardware and the software suffers or is effected. Regarding your second and third paragraphs: If, because of the information generation problems that I have outlined here and in my post on dreams, one agrees that it is implausible to accept that continuous, coherent streams of thought could be generated in real time by the brain, then why believe that the brain generates any thoughts at all? Theoretically I suppose the brain is capable of representing concrete things like color, but as you say the rendering of them subjectively in consciousness is a different thing. However, I cannot conceive of any way that the brain could represent abstract thoughts let alone render them in consciousness, nor have I read any plausible proposals, at all. I suppose human language--the "data"--could somehow be encoded in the brain but mapping that to abstract thoughts is an intractable problem. Beyond all that there are a whole host of really difficult problems that I have not even discussed related to how all these putative physical programs would have to interact with one another. Be well.nkendall
May 18, 2015
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We know that the brain can influence the mind because we are aware of what we see, hear, feel, taste, etc. Physical processes in the brain seem to affect emotions like depression or anxiety or euphoria. Psychedelic drugs seem to produce experiences. Mental illnesses can seem to cause paranoid thoughts, and auditory hallucinations, voices, which are extremely similar to thoughts. Puberty seems to cause sexual thoughts. How do you suppose these types of effects on thoughts are caused by the brain? It seems impossible to me for materialism to explain the subjective experience of awareness of thoughts. Just as it is impossible for materialism to explain why blue looks blue it is impossible for materialism to explain how awareness of a thought can be experienced subjectively. But it seems possible to me that the brain might produce data that we experience as thoughts in the same way the brain produces data that we experience as sensations, sight, or sound, or taste. Do you think the brain never produces any type of "data" that is experienced as a thought? ThanksJim Smith
May 18, 2015
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