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Has The Skeptical Zone Finally Earned its Name

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Perhaps.  Its founder is preaching materialist heresy.

In a post over at The Skeptical Zone Elizabeth Liddle joins the ranks of our opponents who are finally admiting that biological design inferences are not invalid in principle.  She writes:

Has Barry finally realised that those of us who oppose the ideas of Intelligent Design proponents do not dispute that it is possible, in principle, to make a reasonable inference of design?  That rather our opposition is based on the evidence and argument advanced, not on some principled (or unprincipled!) objection to the entire project?

EL, welcome to the ranks of biological design theorists, by which I mean that group of people willing to follow the evidence for (or against) design in biology wherever it leads.

There is more good news.  EL quoted me when I set forth the following objection ID proponents often get:  “All scientific claims must employ methodological naturalism, and you violate the principle of methodological naturalism when you make a design inference in biology.”

EL writes:

Yes, indeed, Barry.  It is not a valid objection . . . There is nothing wrong with making a design inference in principle. We do it all the time, as IDists like to point out.  And there’s nothing wrong with making it in biology, at least in principle.  There is certainly nothing that violates the “principle of methodological naturalism when you make a design inference in biology”

There is even more good news.  EL rejects the idea that one most know who the designer is before one can infer design:

The objection to ID by people like me . . .  is not that it is impossible that terrestrial life was designed by an intelligent agent, nor that it would be necessarily impossible to discover that it was, nor even, I suggest, impossible to infer a designer even if we had no clue as to who the designer might be (although that might make it trickier).

She even agrees that biological design inferences can be made without invoking any supernatural agent:

If Barry means that we can only infer natural, not supernatural, design, he is absolutely correct

I have been saying biological ID infers merely “design” and not supernatural design for several years.  I am glad it has finally sunk it.

More good news.  EL quotes me again:  “You agree with us that it is the EVIDENCE that is important, and objections thrown up for the purpose of ruling that evidence out of court before it is even considered are invalid.”

And she agrees:

Yes, it is the EVIDENCE that is important,

Then she runs of the rails:

Of course, by the same token, nobody can claim that ID is false – it may well be true that life was designed by a supernatural designer

EL writes this sentence as if biological ID theory posits a supernatural designer.  Sigh.  Every prominent ID theorist has always (when speaking qua ID) said that it is a project to detect design, not supernatural design.

Then back to good news:

EL says she does not object to the broader ID project

. . . as stated in the UD FAQ:  In a broader sense, Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose. Design detection is used in a number of scientific fields, including anthropology, forensic sciences that seek to explain the cause of events such as a death or fire, cryptanalysis and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI). An inference that certain biological information may be the product of an intelligent cause can be tested or evaluated in the same manner as scientists daily test for design in other sciences.

Wow.  Yes, that is EL folks.  Don’t believe me, follow the link and check it out yourself.

As I write this her post has gotten over 750 comments, some of which are very interesting.

The first one is EL’s own:

And that’s my point, really – that it’s perfectly possible to test ID hypotheses (small case id I guess) because you can test specific predictions arising from specific hypothesised scenarios.

ID opponent Glen Davidson joins the bandwagon and even adds an area of biological design that has received too little attention:

It is done in biology in fact as well as in principle. Genetic engineering can often be detected, and certainly would be searched for in the case of any biologic warfare. I wouldn’t particularly disagree with Allan Miller so long as there is no context, but, within known context, we can find telltale evidence of genetic tampering or of domestication.

Our William J. Murray jumps in with this zinger:

REC and Moran say they can detect convincing indications of design by intelligence …. what are their definitions and methodology? I mean, isn’t that what you guys always ask ID advocates?

A heaping helping of hypocrisy anyone?  🙂

Our old foe Kantian Naturalist agrees with EL!

I concur with the general sentiments expressed here.

EL even comes up with a not-half-bad definition of “intelligence” for the “I” in ID.

an entity with a human-like type capacity to invent things

EL then writes:

I absolutely agree that inferring design does not require a supernatural hypothesis. That was one of the points I was making in the OP.

I am not quite sure how she squares that with what she wrote before (which seemed to imply that she believes the “D” in ID is always posited to be supernatural agent even though all ID proponents say otherwise):

Of course, by the same token, nobody can claim that ID is false – it may well be true that life was designed by a supernatural designer

KN makes an astute observation:

I also think, quite frankly, that Dembski and Behe are also methodological naturalists (on my suggestion of what that concept means), and this comes out in their refusal to identify the putative designer(s) with any deity or deities. ID is consistent with methodological naturalism — as well as consistent with metaphysical naturalism.

Comments
Zachriel is a young earth creationist taking the mickey out of everyone.Andre
November 23, 2015
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Speaking about griffins, has anyone seen what kind of mutants there were in the radioactively polluted area of Chernobyl?EugeneS
November 23, 2015
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@55 "Zachy is UD’s Pet Evolution Troll." Oh I know about that Andrew, Not only how he has carried on against me but with mike and others too. You would think there would be some better opposition but these kind of people seem to be mostly what the other side has to muster.Jack Jones
November 23, 2015
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Zach is one weird fellow
Zachy is UD's Pet Evolution Troll. Feed him if you feel like it. Andrewasauber
November 23, 2015
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Zachriel:
Evolutionary theory leads us to reject the physical existence of griffins,
That is incorrect. Evolutionism would be OK if there were Griffins.Virgil Cain
November 23, 2015
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Mr Cain, Zach is one weird fellow.Jack Jones
November 23, 2015
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Jack Jones- "Zachriel" refers to an angel- Zachriel's blog (the picture is of Kaiser Wilhem)- and from there we get to "we are legion"Virgil Cain
November 23, 2015
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"It has to do with the original post, design detection." What has it got to do with design detection? Since when did saying design is a better explanation than chance require positing the existence of a griffin?Jack Jones
November 23, 2015
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Jack Jones: What have griffins got to do with ... It has to do with the original post, design detection. Jack Jones: why don’t you go and look for one, seeing as you are obsessed with them? We're satisfied griffins are 'designed', for the reasons given. Do you disagree?Zachriel
November 23, 2015
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" Evolutionary theory" There is no "evolutionary theory" "leads us" You don't do anything other than post crap on the net. "If you found evidence of a griffin, you would be famous worldwide." What have griffins got to do with your faith of life originating by chance? "However, you are free to disagree. If you found evidence of a griffin, you would be famous worldwide. Why don’t you bother to look for one?" Where did I say anything about Griffins or believing in them? I see you going on and on about them, You are seriously weird. Are you on drugs?Jack Jones
November 23, 2015
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Fun Fun. I've seen first hand what TSZ does with observations they can't refute. Thousands upon thousands of comments going absolutely nowhere, as if just typing words in a combox will suffice.Upright BiPed
November 23, 2015
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Jack Jones: You are committing the fallacy of using arguments for the evolution of already living organisms as arguments against design, it is a false one. We're not arguing against design, but for design! Evolutionary theory leads us to reject the physical existence of griffins, and to look for their origin elsewhere. However, you are free to disagree. If you found evidence of a griffin, you would be famous worldwide. Why don’t you bother to look for one?Zachriel
November 23, 2015
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"For instance, if the organism is one that has no plausible evolutionary ancestors, such as a griffin, then it may indicate design." You are committing the fallacy of using arguments for the evolution of already living organisms as arguments against design, it is a false one. If you want to argue against design when it comes to biology then you have to tell me when was a living organism observed to originate by chance from non living matter in the outside world?Jack Jones
November 23, 2015
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It could be evidence
Well now, I think we have some evidence here that Zachy has a problem identifying what is evidence, and what isn't. Andrewasauber
November 23, 2015
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@42 Virgil, Do you have any understanding of why Zach refers to himself as "we"? Has he a cojoined twin that he speaks for or something?Jack Jones
November 23, 2015
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asauber: You didn’t answer my question. It could be evidence, albeit contradicted by a huge amount of contrary evidence. EugeneS: There are no known evolutionary antecedents. There are no plausible evolutionary antecedents. A griffin has six limbs, two of which are wings. Your best bet would be a hybrid between an eagle and a lion, but that is contrary to strongly supported science concerning hybridization.Zachriel
November 23, 2015
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Zachriel:
As we have a strongly supported theory of evolution,
The griffin of scientific theories :razz:Virgil Cain
November 23, 2015
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The criteria for inferring design in biology is, as Michael J. Behe, Professor of Biochemistry at Leheigh University, puts it in his book Darwin ' s Black Box: "Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.” Intelligent Design makes testable claims. And these claims are tested and can be potentially falsified via Newton's four rules of scientific investigation>, AKA Occam's Razor/ parsimony. ID is based on three premises and the inference that follows (DeWolf et al., Darwinism, Design and Public Education, pg. 92):
1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design.
2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity.
3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity.
4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.
This tells you not only what to look for- the positive case- but also follows Newton and Occam in that if you can slice off the designer by showing that mother nature, father time and their offspring, emergence are all that is required, the design inference is refuted. Both IC and CSI are examples of work and counterflow. Neither can exist without the intervention of an intelligent agency. What is irreducible complexity? Wm. Dembski in No Free Lunch, refined the definition as:
IC- A system performing a given basic function is irreducibly complex if it includes a set of well-matched, mutually interacting, non-arbitrarily individuated parts such that each part in the set is indispensable to maintaining the system’s basic, and therefore original, function. The set of these indispensable parts is known as the irreducible core of the system.
Numerous and Diverse Parts If the irreducible core of an IC system consists of one or only a few parts, there may be no insuperable obstacle to the Darwinian mechanism explaining how that system arose in one fell swoop. But as the number of indispensable well-fitted, mutually interacting,, non-arbitrarily individuated parts increases in number & diversity, there is no possibility of the Darwinian mechanism achieving that system in one fell swoop. Minimal Complexity and Function Given an IC system with numerous & diverse parts in its core, the Darwinian mechanism must produce it gradually. But if the system needs to operate at a certain minimal level of function before it can be of any use to the organism & if to achieve that level of function it requires a certain minimal level of complexity already possessed by the irreducible core, the Darwinian mechanism has no functional intermediates to exploit.
Virgil Cain
November 23, 2015
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" we have a strongly supported theory of evolution" Incorrect The Evolutionary community is divided over just what the theory is. Evolution exists as a philosophy.Jack Jones
November 23, 2015
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Zachriel, "We reject the existence of griffins because they have no plausible evolutionary antecedents." Nonsense. There are no known evolutionary antecedents. This may change owing to the essence of evolutionary theory (provided one exists). But there lies a big problem: if your theory predicts both A and NOT(A) in all cases, it is a worthless theory.EugeneS
November 23, 2015
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Zachy, You didn't answer my question. A simple yes or no will do. Andrewasauber
November 23, 2015
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asauber: Does a drawing of a Griffin count as evidence for a Griffin Good question. Such a drawing might lead us to ask whether such a creature ever existed, so we subject the initial speculation to hypothesis-testing. As we have a strongly supported theory of evolution, we know that such creatures have no plausible evolutionary antecedents. We might then look for evidence that they are a mixing-and-matching common to 'design', perhaps dreamed up in the fertile imagination of hominids known for their religious imagery that inhabit the same planet.Zachriel
November 23, 2015
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"Does a drawing of a Griffin count as evidence for a Griffin"
“We have all seen the canonical parade of apes, each one becoming more human. We know that, as a depiction of evolution, this line-up is tosh (i.e. nonsense). Yet we cling to it. Ideas of what human evolution ought to have been like still colour our debates.” Henry Gee, editor of Nature (478, 6 October 2011, page 34, doi:10.1038/478034a), Paleoanthropologist Exposes Shoddiness of “Early Man” Research - Feb. 6, 2013 Excerpt: The unilineal depiction of human evolution popularized by the familiar iconography of an evolutionary ‘march to modern man’ has been proven wrong for more than 60 years. However, the cartoon continues to provide a popular straw man for scientists, writers and editors alike. ,,, archaic species concepts and an inadequate fossil record continue to obscure the origins of our genus. http://crev.info/2013/02/paleoanthropologist-exposes-shoddiness/ New York Times Inherits the Spin, Republishes Darwinists’ Error-Filled “Answers” to Jonathan Wells’ – 2008 Excerpt: And all three of these textbooks include fanciful drawings of ape-like humans that help to convince students we are no exception to the rule of purposelessness. Some biology textbooks use other kinds of illustrations ,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/08/new_york_times_inherits010581.html "alleged restoration of ancient types of man have very little, if any, scientific value and are likely only to mislead the public" Earnest A. Hooton - physical anthropologist - Harvard University Paleoanthropology Excerpt: In regards to the pictures of the supposed ancestors of man featured in science journals and the news media Boyce Rensberger wrote in the journal Science the following regarding their highly speculative nature: "Unfortunately, the vast majority of artist's conceptions are based more on imagination than on evidence. But a handful of expert natural-history artists begin with the fossil bones of a hominid and work from there…. Much of the reconstruction, however, is guesswork. Bones say nothing about the fleshy parts of the nose, lips, or ears (or eyes). Artists must create something between an ape and a human being; the older the specimen is said to be, the more apelike they make it.... Hairiness is a matter of pure conjecture." http://conservapedia.com/Evolution#Paleoanthropology "National Geographic magazine commissioned four artists to reconstruct a female figure from casts of seven fossil bones thought to be from the same species as skull 1470. One artist drew a creature whose forehead is missing and whose jaws look vaguely like those of a beaked dinosaur. Another artist drew a rather good-looking modern African-American woman with unusually long arms. A third drew a somewhat scrawny female with arms like a gorilla and a face like a Hollywood werewolf. And a fourth drew a figure covered with body hair and climbing a tree, with beady eyes that glare out from under a heavy, gorilla-like brow." “Behind the Scenes,” National Geographic 197 (March, 2000): 140 picture - these artists "independently" produced the 4 very "different" ancestors you see here http://www.omniology.com/JackalopianArtists.html https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/human-evolution-skull-1470-it-turns-out-has-a-multiple-personality-disorder/ “There’s nothing so absurd that if you repeat it often enough, people will believe it.” William James (1842-1910) The father of modern Psychology One can see that 'artistic license' for human evolution being played out on the following site. 10 Transitional Ancestors of Human Evolution by Tyler G., March 18, 2013 http://listverse.com/2013/03/18/10-transitional-ancestors-of-human-evolution/ Please note, on the preceding site, how the sclera (white of the eye), a uniquely human characteristic, was brought in very early on, in the artists' reconstructions, to make the fossils appear much more human than they actually were, even though the artists making the reconstructions have no clue whatsoever as to what the colors of the eyes, of these supposed transitional fossils, actually were. Evolution of human eye as a device for communication - Hiromi Kobayashi - Kyoto University, Japan Excerpt: The uniqueness of human eye morphology among primates illustrates the remarkable difference between human and other primates in the ability to communicate using gaze signals. http://www.saga-jp.org/coe_abst/kobayashi.htm Are humans the only primates that cry? - 2003 Excerpt: In sum, if we define crying as tearful sobbing, then we know that humans are the only primates that cry. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=are-humans-the-only-prima
The actual evidence:
“Something extraordinary, if totally fortuitous, happened with the birth of our species….Homo sapiens is as distinctive an entity as exists on the face of the Earth, and should be dignified as such instead of being adulterated with every reasonably large-brained hominid fossil that happened to come along.” Anthropologist Ian Tattersall, The Fossil Trail: How We Know What We Think We Know about Human Evolution (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1996), 246. (emeritus curator at the American Museum of Natural History) "A number of hominid crania are known from sites in eastern and southern Africa in the 400- to 200-thousand-year range, but none of them looks like a close antecedent of the anatomically distinctive Homo sapiens…Even allowing for the poor record we have of our close extinct kin, Homo sapiens appears as distinctive and unprecedented…there is certainly no evidence to support the notion that we gradually became who we inherently are over an extended period, in either the physical or the intellectual sense." Dr. Ian Tattersall: - paleoanthropologist - emeritus curator of the American Museum of Natural History - (Masters of the Planet, 2012)
bornagain
November 23, 2015
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Zachriel:
We reject the existence of griffins because they have no plausible evolutionary antecedents.
How do you know "they have no plausible evolutionary antecedents"? And if we ever get to another planet and they have griffins, evolutionism is falsified? Really?Virgil Cain
November 23, 2015
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On the other hand, if you found evidence of a griffin, you would be famous worldwide.
Does a drawing of a Griffin count as evidence for a Griffin, Zachy? Andrewasauber
November 23, 2015
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EugeneS: True. We don’t know something did not exist. And we should not exclude the possibility a priori. That's right. We reject the existence of griffins because they have no plausible evolutionary antecedents. On the other hand, if you found evidence of a griffin, you would be famous worldwide. Why don't you bother to look for one? You know why: It's because, unlike other strange creatures like Tiktaalik or Archaeopteryx, griffins don't fit.Zachriel
November 23, 2015
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semi OT:
The Origin of Life and the Origin of Science Point to God Second in a two-part series on the growing evidence for intelligent design. By Jonathan Witt - November 13, 2015 Excerpt: 20th century scientists came to realize that the universe is not eternal but had a beginning, and that its laws and constants are so finely tuned for life that multiple Nobel laureates have concluded that these findings point to a creative intelligence as the source for this finely tuned beginning. That’s one cosmic-sized counterexample. A second important counterexample is physically small — microscopic really — but enormous in its significance: the origin of the first life.,,, Christians Invented Science Actually, the birth of science itself doesn’t fit comfortably with scientism’s grand progress narrative. Certainly, researchers continue to gain new insights into how material forces cause various things in nature, and that’s a good thing. But the insight that we live in a world with underlying laws and constants, which can be profitably investigated isn’t controversial. More than this, the idea was encouraged by the Christian belief that nature is the rational and orderly work of a divine mind. It spurred Christian theists such as Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler to go looking for the underlying order of nature. In the process of looking for that underlying order, those men launched the scientific revolution. The theistic commitments of those early men of science were crucial to the birth of modern science. It’s now well-established among historians of science that modern science is largely a Christian invention, and one substantially based on theological ideas. In this we have perhaps the most obvious contradiction to scientism’s cherished progress narrative, since on their telling, the early “theological stage” of science is supposed to be the most primitive and useless. https://stream.org/origin-of-life-of-science-point-to-god/
bornagain
November 23, 2015
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Zachriel, "How do we know...?" True. We don't know if something did not exist. And we should not exclude the possibility a priori. That is my point. Valid scientific claims of impossibility are very strong and rare claims.EugeneS
November 23, 2015
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William J Murray: No real scientists believe ID. When you capitalize "ID", it generally refers to specific claims about organisms that the vast majority of biologists reject. William J Murray: ”Darwinism” isn’t a term any real scientist uses. Darwinism has multiple, related meanings. Biologists generally use it to refer to evolution by natural selection, though sometimes it refers to branching descent. If there is confusion, it's best to avoid the term, as there are more precise terms available.Zachriel
November 23, 2015
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EugeneS: You are saying this only because you are sure there are no griffins. How do we know that griffins never existed, that the stories aren't memories of once extant organisms?Zachriel
November 23, 2015
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