Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

HeKS continues to suggest a way forward on the KS “bomb” argument

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Last week, one of my comments relating to the KS “bomb” argument was made the subject of an OP, which can be found here.

In that comment, I had offered a few preliminary thoughts on Keith’s argument (originally found here, and summarized by him here) and asked a few questions to better understand the assumptions informing his argument. Unfortunately, the issues raised in my OP comment, as far I can tell, were never actually addressed. Instead, the ‘responses’ in the ensuing conversation revolved almost entirely around what the participating ID proponents considered obviously false analogies, which invoked “Planetary Angels”, “Rain Fairies”, “Salt Leprechauns”, and “Toilet Whales”.

Regarding these analogies, Keith, Zachriel, and other ID opponents, seemed to be arguing as though ID claims a designing agent is necessary to explain the shape/pattern of the ‘Objective Nested Hierarchy’ (ONH) into which living organisms are claimed to fall, when the production of  an ONH can be explained by a natural, unguided process of branching descent.  Thus, they claimed, there is no difference between the ID position and one that claims planets are moving in elliptical orbits because angels are choosing to push them around in such orbits, or one that claims salt falls from a salt shaker into a pile on the table because the falling salt is being guided by invisible leprechauns who like making salt piles. The idea here is that in each case we have some superfluous explanatory entity being posited to directly guide some process that looks exactly like it is not being guided, does not need to be guided, and is explained perfectly well by law-based processes.

During the course of the thread it was pointed out to them innumerable times that, even granting the existence of an ONH for life, ID does not and would not cite the shape or production of such an ONH as being an example of something that requires an explanation by reference to an intelligent cause. Rather, in identifying the need for an intelligent cause to explain certain aspects of biology, ID points to the evident infusion of significant amounts of biological information into the world of life, as well as the novel introduction of complex, functionally-specified biological systems and molecular machines. In other words, for its evidence, ID points to aspects of life that do not seem obviously explicable by reference to purely natural processes, whether stochastic or law-based, but that do contain hallmarks that we habitually and uniquely associate with conscious, intelligent, intentional activity. In yet other words, the previously mentioned analogies to “Planetary Angels” and “Salt Leprechauns” are horribly and obviously misguided and entirely off the mark.

Unfortunately, the distinction never seemed to get through to them. And even more unfortunately, the thread was eventually derailed and shut down while a number of conversations were still in progress. Aspects of the discussion, however, continued here.

In that new thread, the Rain Fairies, the Salt Leprechauns, and their most recent common ancestor, the Plantary Angels, have again reared their head, being invoked in response to the objection from ID proponents to the description of microevolution as being “unguided”. The point of the ID proponents in this case relates quite closely to one of the claims in Keith’s so-called “bomb” argument, with which I myself took issue in the previously mentioned OP. In Keith’s summary of his argument, he says that even “the most rabid IDer” admits that “unguided evolution” exists, with the ultimate intention of extrapolating what ID proponents admit happens into what they say does not happen.

Now, when Keith refers to “unguided evolution” here, he is referring to the relatively minor microevolutionary changes that take place within a population, but on the view of ID proponents, these are not the kind of phenomena that could, even in principle, be extrapolated to account for the macroevolutionary innovations that would be necessary to account for the full content of the alleged ONH “Tree of Life”. And in taking issue with the characterization of microevolution as “unguided”, the ID proponent is taking issue with the fact that a phrase that might be uncontroversially applied to a subset of these phenomena is, within the context of Keith’s argument, being over-generalized in a way that implicitly suggests an acceptance by ID proponents of propositions they do not actually accept, and so is a case of illegitimately stealing ground en route to the argument’s conclusion.

In addition to my comments in the original OP, I expanded on them somewhat in a recent comment, which I’ll duplicate here to fill out the remainder of this post and hopefully spur further discussion.

From here:

Now, when it comes to this business of proving that microevolution is unguided, I think there needs to be an understanding of what it would even mean to suggest that it is “guided”. I’m reasonably certain that the majority of people who would dispute claims that microevolution is unguided do not mean that a designer is actively, in the moment, effecting a specific microevolutionary change. Nor would they dispute that random mutations happen. Rather, they would likely dispute that all mutations are random. And they would also likely argue (as I did in the previous thread) that the constrained allowance for – and even rapid increased initiation of – mutations and general genetic and epigenetic changes are a purposeful aspect of the design of organisms to allow for diversification and adaptation (which is sometimes very rapid). If the random variation or shuffling is too large, however, it kills the organism, makes it sterile, or at the very least reduces its reproductive potential, decreasing the chances that the significant defect will be passed on or largely affect subsequent generations of a population.

In other words, the argument is not that random mutations allowing microevolution look unguided but are actually being directly manipulated by some designer. Rather, the argument is that 1) the RM/NS mechanism is a constrained feature of organismal design, and that the Neo-Darwinists are looking at a design feature of a system that makes use of randomization and illegitimately extrapolating it to explain the entire system itself; and 2) that not all mutations/changes are random at all, but some are internally directed in a purposeful manner for the benefit of the organism.

So, it seems to me that, from an ID perspective, saying something like, ‘even IDists admit unguided evolution exists’, is either A) a case of making a trivial claim that cannot be legitimately extrapolated from the kinds of microevolutionary changes that are seen (overwhelmingly degrading genetic information and/or narrowing genetic variability; breaking or blunting existing biological function for a net fitness gain) to the kinds of macroevolutionary innovations that are theorized (the introduction of complex, functionally-specified systems and molecular machines), or B) a case of making an unwarranted and unsubstantiated claim that the system that allows for and makes use of the RM/NS mechanism for the benefit and diversification of the organism does so by fluke, in a way that is fully unconstrained, and is itself undesigned; or C) both.

Of course, as I’ve said numerous times before, I think this is only one of many issues with Keith’s argument, but it has become quite clear that it is difficult to get even just one criticism seriously addressed in a comment thread, so it would likely be useless to draw in any others at this point. I’m hoping that the nonsensical false analogies about Rain Fairies and Planetary Angels can be left to the side to allow for some kind of substantive discussion of the issues, but I’ve been given little reason to suspect that my hope is grounded.

 

Comments
Keith: No. What I’m saying is that at every point in time it is possible for the Designer to do something that would completely wreck the ONH signal.
Setting aside the fact that this is an unsupported assumption. I would like to know what would completely wreck the ONH signal. Please, provide an example. What would ruin Theobald's ONH?Box
November 24, 2014
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@Keith #1 I didn't ignore you. I had already addressed similar issues prior to you making that comment, though my prior comments were directed to someone else. Also, I actually responded to the comment you've quoted by asking you a question intended to show you the problem with your reasoning, and you offered an initial answer but the thread was shut before I had a chance to respond. From my comment #548 in the other thread:
Keith,
No. What I’m saying is that at every point in time it is possible for the Designer to do something that would completely wreck the ONH signal. The fact that we see the ONH thus means that the Designer continually decides (or is limited to) acting in a way that preserves the ONH.
If ID is true, then the designer is fully involved, by intent or by limitation, in the production of the ONH. Try to picture this, Keith… A process of branching descent is running in various lineages and a complex new trait, system or molecular machine is added to a lineage. What happens to the new addition?
You responded:
That depends. Does God the Designer add it to a single individual, to a few, to many, or to all? Is it beneficial, neutral, or deleterious? Homozygous or heterozygous? Does it go to fixation? How does drift impact it? Is it added to a subpopulation that’s on its way to reproductive isolation? How far along? Let’s assume that God the Designer “installs” it in all individuals of the population as a homozygous trait — instant fixation, in other words. In that case it will be passed down to all descendants along each subsequent branch until it is modified or it reverts.
So let me respond now. Yes, in other words, the unguided process of branching descent would distribute the innovation in a way that continued and conformed to an objective nested hierarchy. This is true whether we're talking about biology or just any generic process of branching descent with some form of primarily vertical inheritance. Content added to a line of descent within a process of branching descent would retain the objective nested hierarchy. So right off the bat a distinction needs to be made between the idea of fully instantiating a highly complex ONH and the idea of adding content to a process that naturally generates an ONH. To say that it seems intelligence is required to explain the infusion of content is not the same as saying that it seems intelligence is required to explain the bare fact of the claimed ONH. The fact that a natural process could account for the nature of the hierarchical relationships does not mean that a natural process could account for the content and features by which those hierarchical relationships are defined. Recognizing this distinction brings us to other issues that demonstrate a deeper and, it seems, all-encompassing problem with your argument. First, when you say...
at every point in time it is possible for the Designer to do something that would completely wreck the ONH signal
... it seems to me that you're making a claim that doesn't make any sense. You're arguing as though the claimed ONH is objective in an absolute sense rather than in a statistical sense. There are significant incongruities all over the place at every level of the tree and countless examples cited of extreme morphological and molecular convergence, but when an analysis is performed on the traits that give the best, most parsimonious signal of an ONH, it is claimed that various forms of analysis still give a strong ONH signal with a high degree of statistical correlation. Your comment that is quoted just above suggests that it would be incredibly easy to "completely wreck the ONH signal", but that is simply false. When you consider the number of organisms being classified, it would take an incredible amount to "completely wreck" an ONH signal that was derived by the distribution of traits primarily through a process of some sort of branching inheritance. In other words, it would basically require either an abandonment of using a form of branching descent to distribute traits and facilitate adaptation, or would require a concerted effort to specifically overcome the ONH pattern created by the branching descent process so that it was impossible to get an ONH signal with a high degree of statistical correlation even on an analysis of traits that gave the best, most parsimonious ONH signal. Second, your entire argument asking why a designer would choose an ONH pattern out of all possible relationships and claiming that it should be viewed as merely one of trillions of options that you can imagine being open to the designer is entirely wrong-headed. The question of why the designer would choose an ONH only makes sense if you assume the complete (and probably simultaneous) instantiation of the ONH of life, which ID does not assume. As soon as you allow that different forms of life appeared over a long period of time and that much of the diversity (though not necessarily the disparity) of life arose through the differential distribution of traits through branching descent, then you will immediately expect a powerful signal of an ONH as a byproduct of that process of branching descent. At that point, the question becomes, "Is there any reason why a designer would prefer to use a process of differential distribution of traits through branching descent in generating the diversity of life?" And that, obviously, becomes a very different question.HeKS
November 24, 2014
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Linnean Taxonomy, the observed ONH, reads like intelligent design plan. For example it says what is required for a basic animal- the basic animal design standard. Then with each level there are differing additions leading to differing organisms. And it turtles all the way down to the actual organisms.Joe
November 24, 2014
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The paper you were quoting from is Tulha et al 2012, PMID: 22617017 you say:
Study the entire paper, mutations to certain proteins, PCD kicks in and repairs, the moment any of the PCD proteins are mutated, it becomes dysregulated and necrosis happens.
I find zero support for your claim in the paper. I note that the authors happily grow up their gup1-deleted strain... Could you be a little bit more specific?DNA_Jock
November 24, 2014
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Zachriel:
The nested hierarchy strongly implies the existence of a tree,...
A nested hierarchy can be depicted as a tree. That is the only tree it "implies".Joe
November 24, 2014
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Zachriel:
Z: The argument that a designer is superfluous to explaining the nested hierarchy is correct.
Indeed! A designer is superfluous to explaining the nested hierarchy in the same way that salt leprechauns are superfluous to explaining a pile a salt! Well said. Of course, no one is arguing that the nested hierarchy is better explained by a designer, are they? Who is arguing this? Instead, as HeKS has put it:
HeKS: Rather, in identifying the need for an intelligent cause to explain certain aspects of biology, ID points to the evident infusion of significant amounts of biological information into the world of life, as well as the novel introduction of complex, functionally-specified biological systems and molecular machines.
And more insightful commentary from Zachriel:
Z: The argument that the nested hierarchy is sufficient to rule out design is incorrect.
Do you mean that it doesn't make design a trillion times less likely? If so, can you please tell keiths? Thanks in advance.Phinehas
November 24, 2014
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Well it is a given that unguided evolution cannot produce an objective nested hierarchy. An intelligent designer, using a common design, ie design standards, could easily produce a nested hierarchy of differing designs based on the same standards. Linnean Taxonomy, the observed ONH wrt higher organisms, is based on the hypothesis of a common design.Joe
November 24, 2014
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DNA_Jock Study the entire paper, mutations to certain proteins, PCD kicks in and repairs, the moment any of the PCD proteins are mutated, it becomes dysregulated and necrosis happens. You have the link study the paper, PCD is evolutionary conserved and any type of change to PCD is fatal to the organism. We experienced this process first hand, We buried a dear friend of mine's kid this month, from PCD breaking to the death of LK took a grand total of 4 days. RIP LK.Andre
November 24, 2014
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Andre says "PCD is tamper proof and experiments show any mutation of any kind to PCD initiates necrosis, a system self destruct mechanism that is not reversable." Strange that you should make this claim, Andre, when an abstract that you have quoted twice in the last three days from actually says
We demonstrate that gup1? mutant strain present a significantly reduced chronological lifespan comparing to Wt. Moreover, this mutant showed to be highly sensitive to acetic acid. Yet, while chronologically aged and acetic acid treated Wt cells die exhibiting apoptotic markers, gup1? mutant cells under the same conditions seems to be incapable of undergoing apoptosis. Instead, these cells appeared to be experiencing a necrotic cell death process.
They undergo necrosis when treated with acetic acid, Andre. Honorable?DNA_Jock
November 24, 2014
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HeKS: Regarding these analogies, Keith, Zachriel, and other ID opponents, seemed to be arguing as though ID claims a designing agent is necessary to explain the shape/pattern of the ‘Objective Nested Hierarchy’ (ONH) into which living organisms are claimed to fall, when the production of an ONH can be explained by a natural, unguided process of branching descent. The shape of the tree is a different issue from the existence of a branching pattern. Trees come in all sorts of shapes, both natural and artificial. The nested hierarchy strongly implies the existence of a tree, but doesn't tell us what mechanisms shaped the tree. The argument that a designer is superfluous to explaining the nested hierarchy is correct. The argument that the nested hierarchy is sufficient to rule out design is incorrect.
The formation of the ONH therefore cannot be teased apart from the production of features exhibiting CSI.
That is incorrect. The nested hierarchy is evident in non-adaptive features, such as synonymous substitutions.
If ID is true, then the designer is fully involved, by intent or by limitation, in the production of the ONH.
Planting a tree hardly constitutes being "fully involved".Zachriel
November 24, 2014
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keiths:
What I’m saying is that at every point in time it is possible for the Designer to do something that would completely wreck the ONH signal.
Really?! How is it that you know this about a designer that we know absolutely nothing about? Seriously. Please explain how you know that at every point in time it is possible for a designer that we know absolutely nothing about to do something that would completely wreck the OHN signal. WJM has it exactly right.
WJM: IMO, this is related to keith’s hidden, probably unconscious/unrealized assumption that the designer in question is an omnipotent, magical entity that can instantiate whatever keith can imagine into the world; which is why keith doesn’t understand he is confusing what he can imagine with what a designer can possibly do. In his mind, the two must necessarily be the same thing because – again, in his mind – that is what both sides mean when they use the term “desginer”.
Keiths continually tries to smuggle what he thinks he knows about the designer into his argument while at the same time pretending (because his argument rests on the pretension) that we know absolutely nothing about the designer. Surely, he must realize this by now.Phinehas
November 24, 2014
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I'm also currently writing a further response to Keith that I didn't have a chance to get to because the other thread got shut down.HeKS
November 24, 2014
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keiths: Who is ignoring whom? HeKS responded to what you just wrote. He even quoted it. Here is his response with the quote:
keiths: The formation of the ONH therefore cannot be teased apart from the production of features exhibiting CSI. So if the Designer is producing features with CSI, the Designer is also producing the ONH.
HeKS: The structure of the ONH, if it exists, and if we allow that it results naturalistically, derives from the inheritance of existing traits through branching descent. But even if we allow that the ultimate ONH distribution of traits can be explained by their inheritance through branching descent, it does not follow that the appearance of complex novel biological systems, molecular machines or traits can be explained by the inheritance of traits through branching descent. You are insisting that the same simple process that would ultimately give an ONH its final shape must also be able to explain the existence and introduction of all the content/data that it hierarchically organizes, which simply doesn’t make any sense.
Here, now, is a perfect opportunity for onlookers to see the character of keiths' debating tactics. He ignores his opponent's responses, acts as though they never happened, and then accuses his opponent of having ignored his original point. But the record shows otherwise and exposes keiths as worthy of the Black Knight comparison. So, keiths is either an unsophisticated troll, or his internal narrative likely does follow along rather closely to that of the Black Knight. [Arthur cuts off Black Knight's left arm] King Arthur: Now, stand aside, worthy adversary! Black Knight: ‘Tis but a scratch! King Arthur: A scratch? Your arm’s off! Black Knight: No, it isn’t! King Arthur: Well, what’s that then? Black Knight: I’ve had worse.Phinehas
November 24, 2014
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Heks One of those systems I argue is PCD. Keith S is welcome to claim that unguided evolution is the best explanation for the diversity of life, but in doing so he has to account how unguided procesess created an evolutionary conserved system that is highly regulated. This system has built in fault tolorance, redundancy, backup systems, coordination with other systems is responsible for cell development, cell repair and cell stability. In addition all cells have some form of CRC checksum known as self and non self. PCD is tamper proof and experiments show any mutation of any kind to PCD initiates necrosis, a system self destruct mechanism that is not reversable. I say fine Keith make your claim but back it up with observational evidence. The quistion really is can you show how unguided processes built PCD? I eagerly await your answer.Andre
November 24, 2014
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FYI: Do orthologous gene phylogenies really support tree-thinking? Heartlander
November 24, 2014
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>If ID is true, then the designer is fully involved, by intent or by limitation, in the production of the ONH. So what is wrong with that?? Perhaps the problem is that you are arguing with some people who DON'T accept ONH?? Is that the issue? Because if one DOES accept ONH, why can't he accept what you just said - which is what I was saying on the other thread the whole time.HD
November 24, 2014
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Keith et al seem to think that if an IDist agrees that natural selection exists, or that random mutation exists, they have committed to the agreement that unguided biological evolution exists. Since no ID proponent would agree that life exists at all without intelligent design, and thus biological evolution could not exist without design, how can Keith in good faith claim that IDists agree that unguided evolution exists at all - unless Keith is falsely extrapolating an agreement that natural selection and random mutation exist into an agreement that "unguided evolution" exists. If "evolution" = "all known biological features", then to use one of Keith's favorite terms, "falling" = "all known descent patterns". Natural selection and random mutation would be unguided forces (by definition) acting on evolution; they may or may not be causally sufficient to account for some biological features. In the same sense, gravity would be an unguided force acting on the descent pattern of any object, but that doesn't mean gravity gives a causally sufficient account of the descent pattern of everything that falls - such as, intelligently guided aircraft or skiers descending down a moutainside. Keith seems to think that a theory of "intelligent falling" is ludicrous on the face of it, but that is exactly the sort of thing we would require to account for the descent patterns of some things because gravity and all other natural forces would be insufficient explanations. Downhill skiers and snowboarders employ the equivalent of a theory of intelligent falling all the time, Keith. It's what keeps them alive and in one piece. Because gravity acts on them doesn't mean it can account for their descent pattern.William J Murray
November 24, 2014
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HeKS, Thank you for the new thread. You wrote:
During the course of the thread it was pointed out to them innumerable times that, even granting the existence of an ONH for life, ID does not and would not cite the shape or production of such an ONH as being an example of something that requires an explanation by reference to an intelligent cause.
I addressed that objection. I'm not sure why you're ignoring me:
In your ridiculous leprechaun argument, it is being invoked to explain the simple phenomenon of the salt falling into a pile, but with regard to your argument, nobody has claimed that the barriers relate to the shape of the tree. We’re not claiming that there’s something that prevents “unguided evolution” (setting aside the disputes over that term) from generally resulting in the shape of an ONH. And we’re not invoking design to account for the shape of the alleged tree.
But they [the barriers] do [relate to the ONH pattern]. Derived characters are not limited to simple ones that IDers would willingly attribute to unguided evolution. They include features chock full of “CSI”. The formation of the ONH therefore cannot be teased apart from the production of features exhibiting CSI. So if the Designer is producing features with CSI, the Designer is also producing the ONH.
Also here:
You wrote:
You also seem to be arguing that if a designer either adds to or produces any aspect or part of an ONH, he/she must therefore have directly and specifically instantiated every element present in the entire hierarchy and done so in a way that conforms to the alleged ONH, which is an obviously absurd all-or-nothing proposition.
No. What I’m saying is that at every point in time it is possible for the Designer to do something that would completely wreck the ONH signal. The fact that we see the ONH thus means that the Designer continually decides (or is limited to) acting in a way that preserves the ONH. If ID is true, then the designer is fully involved, by intent or by limitation, in the production of the ONH.
keith s
November 24, 2014
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