Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

TEs Must Say the Explanation of an Illusion is Itself an Illusion as the Price of Admission to the “Cool Kids” Club

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Editors:  This was originally posted under a different title in May 2012.  We were inspired to repost it by Dr. Sewell’s post here

Bishop Ussher famously calculated that the universe was created on October 23, 4004 BC.  I do not hold this or any other young earth creationist (YEC) position.  The evidence that the universe is several billion years old seems fairly compelling to me.  In particular, certain celestial objects (stars, galaxies, supernovas, etc.) are billions of light years away.  From this fact I deduce that the light we see from these objects has been traveling billions of years to get to us, which leads to the conclusion that the objects emitted the light billions of years ago, which in turn means the objects are billions of years old.  This chain of inferences obviously leaves no room for an age of the universe measured in only thousands of years.

YEC proponents have the same evidence as the rest of us, and they admit the universe appears to be billions of years old.  Nevertheless, they persist in their YEC beliefs.  How can they do this?  There is an enormous body of literature on the subject that cannot be summarized adequately in the confines of a blog post, but the short answer is YECs have erected a series of plausible (to them) explanations for the apparent age of the universe.  For example, some YECs hold that just as God created Adam with apparent age (i.e, he started out as an adult; he was never an infant, a toddler, or a teenager), God also created the universe with apparent age.  This means that the light we see from those distant objects was not emitted billions of years ago.  Instead, God created that light “in route.”  Other YECs assert that the speed of light need not have been constant, and if light traveled in the past many times faster than it does now, our deductions about the age of the universe based on an assumption that the speed of light has always been the same would be wrong.

I do not reject YEC reasoning such as this as a logical impossibility.  By this I mean that while God cannot do logically impossible things (e.g., he cannot make a “square circle” or cause 2+2 to equal 73), he can perform miracles.  He can turn water into wine; he can make five loaves of bread and two fish feed thousands of people.  Indeed, the very act of creating the universe — no matter when he did it — was a miracle.  Therefore, I conclude that God, being God, could have created the universe on October 23, 4004 BC and made it look billions of years old just as the YECs say, even if that is not what I personally believe.  

The YEC position cannot, therefore, be refuted as a logical impossibility.  Nor can it be refuted by appealing to the evidence.  “Wait just a cotton picking minute Barry!” you might say.  “In the first paragraph you told us you believe the ‘evidence’ leads to the conclusion that the universe is billions of years old.”  And so I did.  Here is where we must distinguish between the evidence, which is the same for everyone, and an interpretive framework for that evidence, which can vary.  By “interpretive framework” I mean the set of unprovable assumptions each of us brings to bear when we analyze the evidence.  For example, the vast majority of scientists assume that the speed of light has been constant since the beginning of the universe.  As we have seen, some YEC scientists believe that light has slowed down significantly since the creation event.  Obviously, conclusions about the age of the universe from the “light evidence” will vary enormously depending upon which group is correct.  

Very interestingly, despite the fact that most people believe that it is a scientifically proven “fact” that the speed of light has always been the same as it is now, it most certainly is not.  The current speed of light is an observable scientific fact.  We cannot, however, know with certainty what the speed of light was before observations of the speed of light were made.  This assertion is not in the least controversial.  Mainstream scientists admit that their assumptions about the fixed nature of the speed of light in the remote past are just that, assumptions.  In philosophical terms, mainstream scientists subscribe to “uniformitarianism,” the assumption that physical processes operated in the past in the same way they are observed to operate now.  YEC scientists by and large reject uniformitarianism.  Which group is correct is beside my point.  The point is that uniformitarianism is an assumption of most scientists.  It has not been, and indeed as a matter of strict logic cannot be, demonstrated by science.  In other words, the uniformitarian assumption is part of the interpretive framework mainstream scientists bring to bear on the evidence.  The uniformitarian assumption is not part of the evidence itself.

This brings me to the point of this post.  I don’t usually argue with YEC’s, because no matter how long and hard you argue with them, you will never convince them based on appeals to logic and evidence.  There is, almost literally, nothing you can say that might change their mind, so arguing with them is usually pointless.  Yes, the YEC proponent has the same evidence that you do, but he interprets that evidence within a different interpretive framework.  You might think his interpretive framework is flawed, but you cannot say, as a matter of strict logic, that his interpretive framework must be necessarily flawed.  In other words, you must admit that as a matter of strict logic it is possible, for instance, for light to be slower now than it was in the past.  And given the premise of some YECs that light is in fact slower now than it was in the past, their conclusions might then follow.  

Why do YECs reject uniformitarianism?  Because they are devoted to a particular interpretation of the Biblical creation account.  They believe the Bible says the universe was created in six days a few thousand years ago, and if they are going to believe the Bible is true they must therefore believe the universe was created in six days a few thousand years ago.  It does no good to appeal to logic or evidence.  As I have demonstrated above, a young universe is not a logical impossibility and no matter what evidence you adduce that, to you, indicates the universe is very old, the YEC will have an answer (e.g., “light has slowed down”). 

I was thinking about this yesterday when we were discussing the theistic evolutionists (TEs) over at BioLogos.  TEs are like YECs in this respect — they cling to a scientific view that runs counter to the obvious evidence because of their prior commitments.  

Let me explain what I mean.  Just as it is “obvious” that the universe appears to be several billion years old, it is “obvious” that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  That statement is not based on my religious beliefs; even the atheists believe that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  Arch-atheist Richard Dawkins famously said that “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”  Surely our friends at BioLogos will go as far as atheist Dawkins and admit that living things “appear” to have been designed for a purpose.  

Now notice the similarity between TEs and YECs:  Everyone concedes that the universe appears to be billions of years old; everyone concedes that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  YECs say the first appearance is an illusion.  TEs  say the second appearance is an illusion.  

We have already seen how YECs come to the conclusion that the apparent age of the universe is an illusion.  How do TEs come to the conclusion that the appearance of design in living things is an illusion?  The same way Richard Dawkins does, by appealing to the marvelous creative powers of Darwinian processes that, he says, are able to mimic design through strictly natural means.  Darwinists say, as they must, that the appearance of design that they admit exists is not real but an illusion.  Indeed, the whole purpose of the Darwinian theory of origins is to account for the appearance of design without having to resort to a designer. 

YECs reject the “obvious” conclusion about the age of the universe because of their prior commitments.  Why do TEs reject the “obvious” conclusion about the design of living things?  Further, why do TEs reject that obvious conclusion in the very teeth of the Biblical injunction to regard the appearance of design as proof of God’s existence (Romans 1).  

The answer has to do with what I call the “cool kids” impulse that all humans have to one extent or another.  When I was in school all of the “cool kids” sat at a particular table at lunch, and everyone wanted to be in that group.  I was not a cool kid, and I figured out pretty early that, for better or ill, the streak of stubborn individualism that runs to my very core would probably prevent me from ever being a cool kid.  I refused to conform and in order to be a cool kid you have to conform to the other cool kids.  Don’t get me wrong.  I very much wanted to be a cool kid.  Everyone wants to be a cool kid, and believe me, my life would have been so much easier if I had been a cool kid.  This is sociology 101.  But I was unwilling (perhaps even unable) to pay the price of admission to the cool kids club – i.e., conformity.

The cool kids impulse does not go away when we are adults, and in the academic community all of the cool kids sit at the Darwinian table.  TEs want to be cool kids; they want to be respectable and accepted in the academic community.  Sadly for them, the price the academic cool kids club extracts for admission is denial of the obvious appearance of design in living things and acceptance of the patent absurdity that the accretion of random errors sorted by a fitness function can account for the stupendously complex nano-machines we call cells.  

This is not, however, the end of the story for TEs.  They know that to deny design in the universe is to deny the designer of the universe, which is to deny God, and what is the point of being a TE if you reject the “T” part?  In order to maintain their membership in the cool kids club TEs slam the front door in God’s face when they deny the reality underlying the apparent design of living things that even atheists admit.  But they are perfectly willing to let God in the backdoor just so long as he stays out of sight and doesn’t get them kicked out of the club.  

As I discussed yesterday, I am thinking of TEs like Stephen Barr.  Dr. Barr is perfectly happy to accept the Darwinian account of evolution.  Darwinism says that mechanical necessity (i.e., natural selection) plus random chance (mutation, drift, etc.) are sufficient to account for the apparent design of living things.  It is, in StephenB’s words, a “design-free random process.”  In his “Miracle of Evolution,” Dr. Barr slams the front door shut on God when he accepts the Darwinian account.  Then he cracks the backdoor open ever so slightly to let God slip in when he asserts that what we perceive as a “design-free random process” is really, at a deeper level of existence, directed by God in a way that is empirically undetectable at this level of existence.

Barr is saying that in order to maintain his membership in the cool kids club he must affirm that evolution is purely random and design free.  How is his position different from the atheist position espoused by Richard Dawkins?  At the level of existence in which we examine empirical data, Barr’s position is identical to Dawkins’ position.  But, says Barr, when he uses the word “random,” he really means “apparently random but really directed.”  Apparently, Barr believes that, in Einstein’s famous phrase, God really does play dice with the universe.  But according to Barr, God, has loaded the dice so that they rolled “life,” however improbable that might have been (like a thousand 7′s in a row with real dice), and God’s dice loading is so clever that the “fix” can never be detected empirically. 

In this way Barr maintains membership in the academic cool kids club by espousing a Darwinian account of origins that is indistinguishable from the account of origins that atheists like Dawkins and Dennnett espouse.  Yet he keeps the “T” in his “TE” by saying that at a wholly different level of existence God fixed the game so that “random” is not really random but “directed.”  He wants to have it both ways. 

Here again, the TE position is exactly the same as the YEC position.  As we have already seen, you cannot push a YEC off his position by appealing to logic or evidence.  Nor can you push Dr. Barr off his position by appealing to logic and evidence.  We cannot rule Barr’s position out on strictly logical grounds.  God, being God, can certainly fix the dice in an empirically undetectable way if that is how he wants to accomplish his purposes.  Nor, by definition, can one rule Barr’s position out empirically short of finding the proverbial “made by YHWH” inscription on a cell.  

Finally, there is a certain irony in Barr’s position.  The atheist says living things appear to be designed but the appearance of design is an illusion explained by random Darwinian processes.  The TE says that living things appear to be designed but the appearance of design is an illusion explained by random Darwinian processes, BUT the randomness of Darwinian process is itself an illusion, because those processes are really directed by God to produce living things.  Thus, according to the TEs, the explanation of one illusion (the randomness of underlying Darwinism), which is an explanation of another illusion (the apparent design of living things) is, you guessed it, design.  Another way of putting it is the TE says design is an illusion explained by random process which are in turn an illusion explained by design.  As the comedian says, “That’s funny.  I don’t care who you are.”

Comments
Mung: 116: From what scholarly works on the history and philosophy of science have you derived the equation of "repeating processes" and "teleology"? It's ludicrous to say that erosion is teleological. If an aimless mechanical phenomenon such as erosion is teleological, then all natural processes must be teleological; but this is to rob "teleological" of all meaning. One must be able to distinguish between end-driven action, and non-end-driven action, or the notion of end-driven action is unintelligible. A tornado that wipes out a Kansas farm is not end-driven; erosion is in the same category. Embryonic development, on the other hand, is end-driven. Any discussion of the nature of science that can't get such basic distinctions clear will only serve to confuse people. 118: What is end-directed about the evolutionary "process" I described? Nothing. Neither "mutation" nor "selection" is "aiming" at anything. Mutation is -- in the neo-Darwinian view -- without regard for future utility, and "selection" is simply a shorthand way of talking about a result (what survives, survives), which should not be personified as aiming to sculpt or shape or produce anything. As for what Darwin said, why don't you read his writings and find out? I've read them extensively, and it's clear he didn't think the process was teleological, but I'm not going to research him again in order to be able to quote you chapter and verse, especially since I think you are probably using the word "teleological" in an idiosyncratic way, so that my quotations wouldn't prove anything to you. Darwin's view was the same as that of Dawkins; there is no real design in the production of new species, but variation and natural selection together produce a very effective substitute for design. In other words, there is no teleology in nature, but it looks as if there is. The job of the evolutionary biologist -- for both Darwin and Dawkins -- is to disabuse the common person of his illusions on this front. Thus, the anti-teleology is no later add-on; it's at the heart of the argument of The Origin of Species. And it runs through The Descent of Man. This is what creates the problem in discussions of evolution and divine purpose. This is why BioLogos is being hammered for clarity on this question.Timaeus
May 12, 2012
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Timaeus: But if you object to such usage, then tell me what we should call the sequence: random mutation, natural selection, another random mutation, more natural selection, etc. Presumably you would not call it the Darwinian “process,” since it’s not end-directed.
Sounds like a process to me. Also sounds Darwinian. Also sounds end-directed. Did Darwin deny his "process" was teleological? Or did that come later?Mung
May 12, 2012
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I’m objecting to the distinction between “external teleology” and “internal teleology.” I don’t think internal teleology exists.
Implying that you do think "external teleology" exists? The acts that you engage in, internal or external teleology? Who or what is pulling your strings?Mung
May 12, 2012
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So either erosion is teleological or it isn’t a process…
Absolutely. Science is all about repeating processes. Science is inherently about teleology. In what sense is a non-repeatable process a process? In what sense is the study of non-repeatable events science?Mung
May 12, 2012
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tragic mishap (112): The action of natural laws is not "external input" in the sense of "input from beyond nature." And that was the kind of input you implied in the original comment that I objected to, that led to this long discussion. You said: "Intelligent design counts as efficient cause if the designer “moves the particles,” which is exactly what IDists are arguing." But in Denton's scenario the designer (who is beyond nature, not part of it) doesn't lift a finger to "move the particles." The designer establishes the natural laws, and presumably creates the original mass that underwent the Big Bang. After that, the only thing that "moves the particles" is the laws of nature, which in Denton's scenario are part and parcel of the cosmic computer program whose output is man. You wouldn't say that the computer programmer steps inside the computer and manipulates all the 0's and 1's, would you? (He's lying on the beach, while his program does all the manipulating.) So why would you say that the designer moves the particles? (He's off contemplating the eternal Ideas, while natural laws are doing all the manipulating.) I would agree with you that Dembski, Meyer, Wells, Nelson and others all insist that God "moves the particles". Even Behe may privately believe (though he has never made it part of the definition of ID, and to my knowledge has never explicitly argued it in his books or articles) that God has done a bit of "moving the particles." But the case of Denton proves that "IDists" is too general. And probably -- though it's not certain -- Sternberg would fall in with Denton on this point. And Dave Scot. And others who have posted here and at Telic Thoughts. God doesn't have to move any particles for ID to be true -- unless you count producing the initial arrangement of the particles -- which are brought into being out of nothing -- as "moving" them. But is bringing something into being out of nothing a "movement"? Where did the particle "move" from, when it wasn't in a previous "position," since it didn't yet exist? So the suggestion that God "moved" any particles at the beginning, even to establish their arrangement, is debatable. It is more economical to suppose that that they came into being *in* their initial arrangement, with no "movement," in the normal sense, at all. Be that as it may, I was merely trying to make sure that other readers did not infer from your words that "ID requires intervention" -- which is the most natural sense that your expression (about the designer moving particles) will bear for the casual reader, even if you did not intend to convey that meaning. I think we have pretty well covered all the idea-content here, so I will exit. You can speak again, but I don't guarantee a reply. (But hey, the "Providential" God of BioLogos doesn't even guarantee the evolution of man, so I'm in good company.)Timaeus
May 12, 2012
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Their internal properties may be necessary for certain types of design. For instance, in order for our particular kind of biological life to be designed carbon may need to be tetrahedral (this is just a poor example, carbon is tetrahedral because by necessity), but these types of properties are not necessary in theory for design. Or maybe at least one property is required: that matter be separable into discrete units. If it was uniform it's hard to see how it could carry information.tragic mishap
May 12, 2012
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Mung: I think the word "process," through frequently implying an end (industrial processes, embryonic process, etc.), can still be used in a looser and more general way, to mean "sequence of events." But if you object to such usage, then tell me what we should call the sequence: random mutation, natural selection, another random mutation, more natural selection, etc. Presumably you would not call it the Darwinian "process," since it's not end-directed. So what is it? The Darwinian "meander"? The Darwinian "blind walk"? Or, less prejudicially, how about the Darwinian "schtick"? Or perhaps, the Darwinian "shuffle"? ("Doin' the Dar-win shuffle [nyuk nyuk nyuk nyuk!]") ... Let me know.Timaeus
May 12, 2012
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Timaeus, All agreed except for one minor thing. I'm not objecting to the distinction between "teleological" and "non-teleological." I'm objecting to the distinction between "external teleology" and "internal teleology." I don't think internal teleology exists.
The point is that, whatever you call the process, the end or goal of the process is achieved as a necessary, logical result of the initial conditions, and requires no external input after t=0.
It most certainly requires external input: the influence of all natural law (necessity). The initial conditions are also imposed externally. There is nothing in the particles, or whatever is the most basic unit of matter/energy, that constitutes necessity other than those two things which are externally imposed. They may be a certain kind of thing, which necessitates how the natural laws treat them, but whatever properties they have internally are not necessary or sufficient for teleological design.tragic mishap
May 12, 2012
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So either erosion is teleological or it isn't a process...Joe
May 12, 2012
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--"GRR… NON-TELEOLOGICAL PROCESS is an OXYMORON." I think a good philosophical case can be made for that point.StephenB
May 12, 2012
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1. A non-teleological process, such as the Darwinian, might be allowed to stumble along mostly on its own, with occasional miracles/interventions/insertions of new information supplementing it, keeping it on course for God’s desired ends, etc.
GRR... NON-TELEOLOGICAL PROCESS is an OXYMORON. But then, you probably already know that.Mung
May 12, 2012
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---tjguy: "If you can show me that God’s Word teaches an old earth using sound methods of biblical interpretation, then I’m all ears. I would be happy to believe that, but until I can be convinced from God’s Word, I prefer to trust God who saw what happened as opposed to the naturalistic interpretations of history by modern day scientists who did not see what happened." You would have to be open to the fact that the Bible contains many genres, including poetry, allegory, argument, and. get this, incomplete history. I don't think you are open to that fact. Yes, much of the Old Testament is historical, as are the Gospels in the New Testament, but some of it is not. You are assuming, I gather, that only one Biblical genre exists, namely the historical and you interpret everything in that context. So we are back to what I think the author had in mind. Genesis is arguing for an ex-nilio (out of nothing) origin of the universe and a transcendent (as opposed to immanent) God. In keeping with that point, it describes the relationship between God and man (creator, creature), teaching that the universe was made for man and the glory of God, providing the proper theological orientation by which man may save his soul. How much time was involved in the process is a far less important point and you can't expect the author, who had one intention, namely an argument supplemented by an incomplete historical account, to provide a time-table description that would be reminiscent of another kind of intention. What do you think the author had in mind and what were his priorities? Please be specific as I was specific.StephenB
May 12, 2012
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--tjguy: "It seems like whenever I bring up the flood, the dialog stops." I don't appreciate the insinuation, since don't run away from any topic. If Scripture says the flood was world-wide, and if it closes the door on the possibility of a local flood, then I accept the teaching as is. If geologists are unwilling to consider that hypothesis, then that is their error. However, I have a question for you: Jesus says that the "Father causes the sun to rise..." Why do you not accept his teaching and choose to follow scientists who say that the earth revolves around the sun?StephenB
May 12, 2012
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tragic @ 105: We are not disagreeing about the basic facts here; we are disagreeing over vocabulary and emphasis. Regarding the computer program, it doesn't matter where the design "resides" -- in the computer or in the mind of the programmer. That's a metaphysical question that has no practical answer. Does the "design" for the oak tree "reside" in the acorn? Or only in the mind of the God who created the acorn? It could be either; it could be both. We can let philosophers argue about that. The practical point is that once the process is started, then, barring some physical accident which interrupts it, or barring direct miraculous intervention by God, nothing in the universe can stop it. It is self-unfolding. It isn't steered by any little nudges or interventions. The program, unassisted by any additional input from the programmer, will give you pi to 500 decimal places; the acorn, unassisted by the direct finger of God, will become the oak; and in Denton's scheme the Big Bang, unassisted by any later special divine actions, will produce man. If you don't wish to speak of such processes as having an "internal teleology," that is fine. Say that they are "automated" or that they are "self-unfolding"; use whatever words you like. The point is that, whatever you call the process, the end or goal of the process is achieved as a necessary, logical result of the initial conditions, and requires no external input after t=0. I took you to be saying, in your earlier post, that the notion of ID *necessarily* involves God pushing particles (atoms, genes, etc.) around. In other words, that it *necessarily* involves "intervention" or "miracles" or "tinkering" or whatever else one may want to call it. I gave you Denton as a counter-example -- an ID theorist who denies that any intervention is required after t=0. And Denton has many admirers in the ID world. If you are saying: "I think Denton is wrong, and Dembski is right; I think that programmed evolution would never work, and that therefore intervention would be necessary" -- that's fine. But you were not merely expressing an opinion about what was scientifically possible; you were insisting on a particular definition of ID. It was that definition that I was challenging. It doesn't represent ID as the ID proponents themselves -- when they speak collectively rather than as individuals -- represent it. Look on the Discovery website. All the formal definitions of ID you will find there speak of "intelligent cause"; none of them make "intervention" a requirement. Now, I want to address your broader philosophical point, as made in your last paragraph. We can imagine "design within an evolutionary context" being delivered in two broad ways: 1. A non-teleological process, such as the Darwinian, might be allowed to stumble along mostly on its own, with occasional miracles/interventions/insertions of new information supplementing it, keeping it on course for God's desired ends, etc. 2. A teleological (or if you want to cavil over the term, substitute "automated" or "self-unfolding") process, such as Denton proposes, might be initiated, without God laying a finger on it once it starts. If you say, both of these possibilities are really just one possibility, because God is still manipulating things in both cases, but in the second one he does the physical manipulating all at the beginning of the universe, whereas in the first he spreads the manipulation over time -- I agree that one can look at it that way. But even if one does look at it that way, it doesn't invalidate the distinction between "interventionist" and "non-interventionist" delivery schemes. The latter never violate "natural laws" once the process starts, and the former do. That's a real difference, even if it's not a difference that you think is very important. In fact it's a difference that's very important for ID, because it allows ID to bluntly deny all "God of the Gaps" charges. ID is compatible with *no gaps in natural causation at all from the moment of the Big Bang to the emergence of man*. The TEs and the New Atheists are thus disarmed of one of their biggest "killer" arguments against ID.Timaeus
May 12, 2012
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Stephen @95:
Do you believe that faith and reason are compatible? If not, what is the role of reason?
See 90. Or you could read chapter 19 of my book: http://www.amazon.com/A-Mishmash-Paddywhack-ebook/dp/B007Z7OWKU/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1336842923&sr=1-1 Timaeus @98: I have not read Nature's Destiny, though I have read Evolution. Shame on anyone here who hasn't.
But it’s still teleological — the entire evolutionary process is effectively the running of a cosmic computer program designed to produce man. And while God is the programmer, he doesn’t manipulate anything to make it happen.
I prefer to view programs as chains of efficient causes and effects rather than "teleology," and any purpose or direction to the program is not actually in the program. Instead it is in the mind of the programmer. The program is only doing what it was designed to do. It has no internal purpose other than proceeding from its initial position, which was manipulated, according to necessity, also manipulated. In this way the whole distinction between internal and external teleology falls apart. It is no distinction at all. Why should we call a program a thing and insist that anything inside it is internal when we can at least theoretically break it down completely into a chain of cause and effect? Anything internal then would have to be internal only to subatomic particles, or energy, or whatever, all of which we today view as following externally imposed laws of nature. If we don't mean Aristotelian teleology than there really isn't any internal teleology. Denton and Behe can believe what they want, but I don't think internal or Aristotelian teleology is coherent.tragic mishap
May 12, 2012
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StephenB, I appreciate your time in dialoguing with me. No problem if you don't respond for a week or two. Anyway, thank you for taking time to discuss this with me. I have interacted with your response below, but perhaps you are not interested in continuing the dialog any further I don't know. Wouldn't be the first time that has happened to me on this topic on this board. It seems like whenever I bring up the flood, the dialog stops. So, if you only answer one more question, I would love to hear how you can say that Scripture is a higher order of knowledge than science and yet allow "science" to force you to believe in a local flood.(I took the liberty of assuming you are consistent in your OEC views and so do not believe in a worldwide flood.) If I am right, I would love to know your reasoning for interpreting the flood passages of the Bible as a local flood. If however, you believe in a global flood, don’t you think that historical fact would have / should have a big impact on how we interpret the geological record? Even if you believe in a local flood, can you see how important it would be for a scientist who takes the Scripture at face value to allow that fact to inform his interpretation of the geological record? This is true for cosmology, biology, anthropology, archeology, geology, paleontology, etc. because the Bible touches on all of these sciences.
You seem to believe that all truth is found in the bible.
No, but I do believe the Bible is true and more dependable than other sources of truth.
Further, you think that a day in Genesis is 24 hours, the chronology of the Creation account is inviolate, and uniformatarianism is a fraud. You may be right about all of these things, and I may be wrong in doubting them. Or perhaps it is the other way around. Beyond that, what else is there to say about historical cosmology. Like you say, we were not there. Why spend hours debating assumptions?
Well, what gives you the idea that the author is trying to communicate something different than a 24 hour day? What textual reasons you have for that view? And, on what Scriptural basis do you reject the order of creation listed in Genesis? How can uniformitarianism be correct if a global flood took place that would have played havoc with the geology of the earth? Is God's Word dependable or do we have to bow to science and twist and tweak and twirk until we can find some way, no matter how unnatural it may seem, to read a local flood into the flood passages of the Bible? You say that faith/revelation is always superior to reason – that faith informs reason. So how does revelation inform reason in Genesis 1? Since we were not there, isn’t the safest thing to take the Creator at his word rather than the conclusions of scientists interpreting the facts through a uniformitarian naturalistic framework that cannot be proven?
I am with you on the problem of methodological naturalism, but I don’t think the answer is to compare data with Scriptural teaching. To me the solution is to simply open up science to study any possible cause.
Then you would propose to ignore the global flood when doing geology? And, in spite of ignoring the flood, you think your naturalistic uniformitarian interpretations of the geological record would be accurate?
Do our attitudes about Scripture influence science? Only if we consult Scripture for input? If we do that, then we would have to face the question of how much weight to give the Scriptural passage and how much weight to give the empirical evidence. That doesn’t sound very rigorous to me.
How can you get an accurate interpretation of the geological record or of the fossils if you don't do that?
My attitude is simple. Whenever my personal interpretation of the Bible conflicts with my scientific speculations, I go with the Bible every time. However, when my personal interpretation conflicts with something I know to be a slam dunk fact, I re-evaluate my biblical interpretation, knowing that I made a mistake in reading it.
So you are saying that people for thousands of years have been mislead by God – that God inspired the text in a way that He knew would mislead people for thousands of years? I guess I would like to know how you know the age of the earth to be a slam dunk fact when it seems that the Scripture teaches something different, when it seems that Jesus taught something different, and when the Bible clearly says in Ex. 20 that God created in 6 24 hour days. So, in the end, you do not allow Scripture to inform your reason when you feel your reason is validated by science.
How do I know that? I know it because the Bible will never contravene a fact, therefore, if it appears to, I am misreading it. How do I know that the Bible will never contravene a fact? Because the Bible is inerrant.
Agreed, but you are saying it is only inerrant in regard to matters science has not made clear. But we all know science is not inerrant.
What kind of check and balance system to you use to guard yourself against those kinds of errors. What about the law of non-contradiction or the rule of sufficient reason. They are not found in the Bible. Do you, nevertheless, accept them, or do you discount them because they are not found in Scripture?
Good questions! The law of non-contradiction is a logical deduction from the character of God Himself, as are all the laws of logic. I don’t think I would subscribe to the “rule of sufficient reason” if it means contradicting God’s Word, but for other issues, yes, I would have no problem with that. It is the best we can do in those situations. How do I guard against errors? By using good principles of interpretation - what the original author intended to say, what other sections of Scripture say about it, how the early Church understood it, etc. It is not foolproof, but not to take Genesis 1-11 as literal history just requires too many unnatural interpretations for me. It requires too much reinterpretation of other Scriptures that touch on Genesis. It requires that one believe God presented His Word in such a way that deceived people for thousands of years. Besides, we're not talking total blind faith here. There is evidence for a young earth if you have eyes to see it, but it is not the evidence that convinces me the most, but the clear record of God's Word. When God has given us hints, when God has given us a record of history to help us make proper interpretation of our observations, I believe we should trust His Word even if the interpretations of historical science using a uniformiatarian framework does not back it up. Remember, God has clearly told us in Scripture that things have not always continued the same from the beginning.
Have you ever read II Peter 3:3-7? “knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? FOR EVER SINCE THE FATHERS FELL ASLEEP, ALL THINGS ARE CONTINUING AS THEY WERE FROM THE BEGINNING OF CREATION.” 5 FOR THEY DELIBERATELY OVERLOOK THIS FACT, THAT THE HEAVENS EXISTED LONG AGO, AND THE EARTH WAS FORMED OUT OF WATER AND THROUGH WATER BY THE WORD OF GOD 6AND THAT BY MEANS OF THESE THE WORLD THAT THEN EXISTED WAS DELUGED WITH WATER AND PERISHED. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.”
The scoffers claim that all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation(sounds like uniformitarianism to me) but Peter says "No. You are deliberately forgetting this fact." He calls it a fact! The fact of God’s creation of the heavens and the earth out of water and the fact of the flood that destroyed the whole world.
–”So nature itself is not an accurate teacher about God. If we looked at only nature to understand God, we might think God didn’t communicate His truth to us very accurately.”
You seem to think that I am equating natural revelation with Divine revelation. Since I am not doing that, I won’t try to deal with all your comments suggesting that I am. With respect to the scientific method, I can only repeat that science begins with observation, not faith. If you have another scientific method in mind, I have no objections. Perhaps you can develop something better than science, with my blessings.
Yes, I understand that science done from the YEC perspective does not count as science any more. It used to, but no more. I’m glad you are not equating natural revelation with Divine revelation. I was mainly trying to point out that if we don’t take God at His Word when He says that He created the world perfect in the beginning and then later death, disease, and suffering entered it because of the curse, then we would have a tendency to misunderstand God because we would be forced to conclude that these things were a part of His original creation and a part of His method of creation. He would be directly responsible for them and that would reflect negatively on Him. So if you believe that divine revelation is superior to natural revelation, then I assume you would believe in the global flood. But if you reject/ignore the global flood when you do geology, how is it that you can really say that Divine revelation is superior to natural revelation? Yes, science begins with observation, but Stephen, then you have to interpret those observations. What framework do you use to interpret your observations? Uniformitarian naturalistic assumptions that cannot be verified or the inerrant written historical record of God's Word? When it is something that occurred in the past that you cannot observe, obviously we are limited as to what we can really "know". That is why the Bible’s record of history is so helpful and important even for scientists if we are really in search of the truth.
–”Do you think YECs do this with Scripture?” (misplacing metaphors as facts and general explanations as chronological accounts)
Yes. I think that it is entirely possible that you may be doing it with Genesis.
In post 55, you gave some examples of when we should not use a literal interpretation and I said that I agreed with each one of your examples. Now you say that I am misplacing metaphors as facts and taking general explanations as chronological accounts in Genesis 1. I’m just curious but what metaphors do you think we are interpreting as facts in Genesis 1? Do you think that Genesis one is NOT a chronological account of creation - if so, why? (Since God Himself numbered the days as 1 through 7, it is hard to understand how we could be wrong in reading that as a chronological account.) This is where it seems that you are taking science and using it to correct God’s Word.
You also said "Scripture is a higher order of knowledge than science, but it can illuminate science only if the standards for sound interpretation are utilized."
What are the standards for sound interpretation that you are using to come up with an allegorical approach to Genesis 1? What is it about the text that leads you to this conclusion? You also said the “literal” method of interpretation takes into account what the original author meant to communicate. I wholeheartedly agree. Do you really think Moses did not mean for people to take chapter one as a chronological account? What basis do you have for saying that outside of what modern day evolutionary science tells us? If you can show me that God’s Word teaches an old earth using sound methods of biblical interpretation, then I’m all ears. I would be happy to believe that, but until I can be convinced from God’s Word, I prefer to trust God who saw what happened as opposed to the naturalistic interpretations of history by modern day scientists who did not see what happened.tjguy
May 12, 2012
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tjguy@104 I was speaking with tongue firmly in cheek as a confused orthodox evolutionist. Re-read my post from that perspective to see how well I unconfuse myself.Jon Garvey
May 11, 2012
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tjguy: Sorry, but time is becoming an issue, so I can only respond in an abbreviated way. With respect to our recent interchange, much turns on our premises. You seem to believe that all truth is found in the bible. Further, you think that a day in Genesis is 24 hours, the chronology of the Creation account is inviolate, and uniformatarianism is a fraud. You may be right about all of these things, and I may be wrong in doubting them. Or perhaps it is the other way around. Beyond that, what else is there to say about historical cosmology. Like you say, we were not there. Why spend hours debating assumptions? I am with you on the problem of methodological naturalism, but I don't think the answer is to compare data with Scriptural teaching. To me the solution is to simply open up science to study any possible cause. Do our attitudes about Scripture influence science? Only if we consult Scripture for input? If we do that, then we would have to face the question of how much weight to give the Scriptural passage and how much weight to give the empirical evidence. That doesn't sound very rigorous to me. My attitude is simple. Whenever my personal interpretation of the Bible conflicts with my scientific speculations, I go with the Bible every time. However, when my personal interpretation conflicts with something I know to be a slam dunk fact, I re-evaluate my biblical interpretation, knowing that I made a mistake in reading it. How do I know that? I know it because the Bible will never contravene a fact, therefore, if it appears to, I am misreading it. How do I know that the Bible will never contravene a fact? Because the Bible is inerrant. What kind of check and balance system to you use to guard yourself against those kinds of errors. What about the law of non-contradiction or the rule of sufficient reason. They are not found in the Bible. Do you, nevertheless, accept them, or do you discount them because they are not found in Scripture? You write, --"Nature can tell us of God’s existence, His greatness, power, creativity, and wisdom, but that’s about it." That's a lot. You have just eliminated atheism and agnosticism without any appeal to Scripture. --"So nature itself is not an accurate teacher about God. If we looked at only nature to understand God, we might think God didn’t communicate His truth to us very accurately." You seem to think that I am equating natural revelation with Divine revelation. Since I am not doing that, I won't try to deal with all your comments suggesting that I am. With respect to the scientific method, I can only repeat that science begins with observation, not faith. If you have another scientific method in mind, I have no objections. Perhaps you can develop something better than science, with my blessings. --"Do you think YECs do this with Scripture?" (misplacing metaphors as facts and general explanations as chronological accounts) Yes. I think that it is entirely possible that you may be doing it with Genesis.StephenB
May 11, 2012
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To Jon Garvey @82
It’s certainly a tough question: “Is the universally acknowledged illusion of design a scientific illusion or only a philosophical or psychological one?”
Jon, isn't this a loaded question? Isn't the whole question whether the design is real or just an illusion? Wouldn't a better question be "Is universally prevalent design that we see wherever we look an illusion or is it real? I certainly do not think that it is universally acknowledged that the design that we see all around us is universally acknowledged to be nothing more than an illusion.
Presumably not a scientific one, because science can see through it to the unguided mechanism beneath.
Nor do I agree with your conclusion that scientifically speaking the design is simply an illusion of design. "Science" (meaning evolutionary science) does not have it all figured out. Given the fact that they are prevented from positing an intelligent cause for the undeniable design they see all around them, sure universally, they claim it was all produced naturally, but that is what ID and creationism challenges. Biologos may think there is no evidence of God's handiwork in the natural world, but that is not a biblical view. The Bible is clear that God's hand is visible and that as a result all men are without excuse. God reveals Himself to us through natural revelation - not in a way that we cannot detect Him, but quite the opposite - in a way that we can detect Him.
1The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. 2 Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. 3 There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. 4 Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. Psalm 19:1-4
The Bible teaches that God is worthy to be praised for His creative works. But how can we praise Him if we can't even see His fingerprints in His creation? Doesn't it make sense that if the world was made with His power and wisdom that there would be evidence of this? Isn't that why the Bible says that people who deny God's existence are without excuse? BioLogos wants to steal the glory of the Creator, to hide it so to speak, and say that we can't really see His hand in nature. This is clearly against the whole tenor of Scripture from the beginning to the end. They would have us believe that science can give no evidence whatsoever for the Creator, but we disagree with that. Sure, science as defined by them, maybe. Historical science that uses their uniformitarian framework to interpret the observations, science that disallows any role for intelligence a priori, but not true science. In the past, the great Christian scientists sought to find God's design in nature and they were excellent scientists!
Lord Kelvin said this: "If you think strongly enough you will be forced by science to the belief in God, which is the foundation of all religion. You will find science not antagonistic but helpful to religion." Johann Kepler, stated, as he was involved in his research, that he was merely thinking God's thoughts after Him.
Now however, these great scientists would not even be able to get a job at a secular university because of their worldview and approach to science! Their approach is outlawed and I doubt Biologos folks would even consider them to be true scientists. Kind of ironic, isn't it? The idea that we could find God's design in nature spurred science on in the West and led to many great discoveries, many by YEC scientists, but now, we are turning our back on that idea and claiming that design is only illusional and that God cannot be discovered through science. It just doesn't sit right with me. History seems to indicate the opposite.tjguy
May 11, 2012
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Flannery @89
...whereas the evidence at least backs the currency of OEC now in hand.
Yes, there is evidence for the OEC point of view provided you use your Christian uniformitarian framework to interpret the scientific observations.(I'm sure there is also evidence outside of that as well...) But this entails rejecting the biblical record of a global flood, the order of creation, the effects of the fall on the universe, Jesus' words that Adam and Eve were created at the beginning of creation, etc. This is where the biblical record can help inform how we should interpret the scientific observations that we have. YEC doesn't have all the answers either, but using a Scriptural framework of interpretation, at least some of the evidence for long ages disappears. So while you put the emphasis on the scientific observations interpreted using uniformitarian assumptions, we put the emphasis on the biblical record interpreted in a literal sense that uses the normal plain reading & meaning of the words and has been the overwhelmingly majority view of Christians and Jews throughout history until uniformitarianism hit the scene. We use fundamentally different lenses to interpret the things we observe in nature.tjguy
May 11, 2012
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StephenB, Would you please respond to my post @55? I answered a previous post of yours and I have some specific questions that I would like to dialog about. Thanks. tjjtjguy
May 11, 2012
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tragic @94: Have you read Michael Denton's book, *Nature's Destiny*? There's an example of internal teleology. It's not what Aristotle meant -- Aristotle dealt only with the telos of individual beings or substances. But it's still teleological -- the entire evolutionary process is effectively the running of a cosmic computer program designed to produce man. And while God is the programmer, he doesn't manipulate anything to make it happen. There is no external interference in the process once the program starts running (at the Big Bang). I consider Denton an ID theorist. And he still hangs out with the ID theorists -- he was at one of their conferences in Italy last year. I am sure that Bill Dembski doesn't think that Denton's account tells us what actually *happened* in earth's past, but I don't think he would deny that Denton is an ID theorist. For Denton the whole process of evolution is intelligently designed. It doesn't depend on randomness, and it isn't driven by blind necessity. It's set up by an intelligent mind which established the initial conditions so that all the subsequent events (at least, all the major ones -- there is room for trivial variations) would occur as planned. The only Discovery fellow who is theoretically close to Denton is Michael Behe, who praised Denton's book and doesn't rule out such a scenario. But if you look outside Discovery, to places like UD and Telic Thoughts and elsewhere, you will find that many of the minor players in the ID movement are sympathetic to Denton. I don't remember clearly enough to say for sure, but it seems to me that Dave Scot, former moderator here, supported a "front-loaded" scheme something like Denton's. In sum, this sort of internal teleology, the teleology of a self-unfolding universe, is clearly within the realm of ID theorizing, even if it doesn't have big support among the Discovery folks. Interestingly, Denton is *not* popular among TEs. You would think he would be, as he goes along with them completely on (a) macroevolution and (b) exclusively natural causes. I can't account for their almost complete lack of interest in the man's thought, unless the objection is theological. And I suspect that is it. For Denton, the outcome of the process is, at least in broad outlines, inevitable. And the TEs, especially the BioLogos folk, don't like fixed outcomes. They want a God who gives nature its "freedom" -- whatever that means. Asked if God steered, guided, or otherwise determined the evolutionary process, they answer obscurely, or not at all. The idea of a God who is completely Sovereign scares them all to death. An odd reaction for Christians, to be sure. Best wishes.Timaeus
May 11, 2012
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"these effects are natural causes or not." -> should probably be something like -> "these effects have natural causes or not."material.infantacy
May 11, 2012
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"YEC isn’t even testable because any evidence against that position can be easily waved away by ad hoc explanations. It’s not science." I don't think YEC is uniquely vulnerable to ad hoc explanations; and I would say that if it can make falsifiable predictions within its own model, there's no reason to to label it as unscientific. I realize that this is very contentious, and I'm not looking to launch a world view war; but Darwinian evolution in its modern form looks to wave away all sorts of observations with ad hoc explanations. It has no verifiable mechanism; and not only does it make metaphysical assumptions, but arguments made in its favor are often theological. I can't see faulting YEC for its preconceptions when all of modern science is now purportedly resting upon a foundation which proclaims that natural processes are the only valid causes of material effects. This is simply absurd, when we can see intelligence performing a unique category of causal effects; and science can't seem to judge as to whether these effects are natural causes or not. Best, m.i.material.infantacy
May 11, 2012
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--"tragic mishap: "Yes, but the key here is “without error.” When I look at two sources of knowledge which ought to be compatible and see that they are not, that is a problem." In all honesty, I don't understand the problem that you are having. Of course, science badly done or science that yields false conclusions is incompatible with the Bible, just as science well done or science that leads to true conclusions is compatible with the Bible. Let's look at a specific example: Scientific conclusion: Certain patterns in nature indicate the presence of a designer. That is a true statement. Biblical truth: An infinite, powerful God created the universe. Those two truthful affirmations are compatible. Anyone who learns about those two truths can believe both points without any intellectual conflict--each is compatible with the other. At this point, I need to ask a pertinent question: Do you believe that faith and reason are compatible? If not, what is the role of reason?StephenB
May 11, 2012
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Timaeus @87 I also see your point. However I don't believe internally driven teleology really exists in the Aristotelian sense. If it does, it's only in the form of natural laws sustained by God, and I have a hard time calling that "internal." Aristotle was trying to explain things that we now have a much better explanation for, not unlike many other areas of science upon which he commented. In the end, I don't think intelligent design theory is really about internally driven teleology, especially if all that means is natural laws. Dembski would call that "necessity." I think Dembski would agree with me if pressed on that point. He is only trying to keep ID a big tent.tragic mishap
May 11, 2012
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Without debating endless particulars, it’s well understood that YEC begins with a sacred text because there is very good reason to believe it has the goods with regard to truth; and by necessity, more so than historical inferences and assumptions of uniformitarianism.
Understood, but see here's the problem with that YEC position: you can't start with your own preconceptions and try to fit the evidence to it. Or, if you do, that isn't science. YEC isn't even testable because any evidence against that position can be easily waved away by ad hoc explanations. It's not science.Genomicus
May 11, 2012
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--Collin: "I am glad that you believe that Christianity passes the test of reason. So do I. But I hope your faith is not only based on reason. I hope you have had the confirmation of the Holy Spirit. --When I read the New Testament, I got down on my knees and asked God if it was true. I got a spiritual witness, a strong feeling that it is true. I think that this is important for every believer. Not to replace reason, but in addition to it." For my part, faith and reason are mutually reinforcing, though faith is, of course, the superior component. Indeed, I don't think anyone can completely embrace the true faith in the absence of reason. Can I, for example, appreciate the range of Christ's infinite mercy and humility without also understanding his majesty as God and his role as my ultimate judge? Can I discern that He has two natures, or that He is the third person of the Blessed Trinity, in the absence of reason-based exegesis. Clearly, there are no such descriptions about Him in the Bible. Yet, I believe it because I stand on the shoulders of faith-filled and sincere theologians who figured it out. My feelings, on the other hand, tell me to avoid all emotional conflict, remain as I am, and live a life of luxury and pleasure. My reason, on the other hand, tells me that, as Christ's disciple, I am not greater than my master, and I must, therefore, accept the suffering that comes from the process of being transforms into his likeness and the persecution that come from being an enemy of the world. My feelings want no part of any of that.StephenB
May 11, 2012
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Flannery @89
Neither you nor Nelson know that decades of “fully funded” research would even allow you to cash in on that note...
No we don't. And neither did any other scientists in history developing new and untried theories. Once again this is more a comparison between creation and the normal operation of science, not a contrast. Pursuing new theories requires faith and always has. I wish you well as well. Don't take our disagreements as prohibiting fellowship. Isn't this conversation an example of fellowship?tragic mishap
May 11, 2012
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Stephen @86: "I am not sure that I understand your language, but I do know that faith and reason must be compatible or else there is no such thing as truth." I think you and I may have different views about what "faith" and "reason" are. Both are required in the practice of science. Both are also required in the practice of theology, Christianity and life in general. The idea of them being "incompatible" is nonsensical to me. Reason must flow from first principles, which can only be taken on faith. It doesn't matter what field of endeavor one is engaging in at the time. It sounds to me like you are using "faith" as a placeholder for "theology" and "reason" as a placeholder for "science," or even "scientific methodology." "So, when that investigation is conducted, through philosophy or science, it will, if undertaken without error, lead to truth–not the kind of truth that will save us, to be sure, but the kind of truth that will confirm the saving truth and show us that it is not contrary to reason." Yes, but the key here is "without error." When I look at two sources of knowledge which ought to be compatible and see that they are not, that is a problem. (If I didn't believe they ought to be compatible, than I wouldn't see a problem here would I?) So I must decide which one I trust more than the other. Even allowing for different interpretations of Genesis, I believe I'm on firmer ground trusting the obvious interpretation of a divinely inspired Genesis, one which Christians accepted almost without exception for 1700+ years, and Jews for longer, than trusting in the human knowledge of the last couple hundred years, knowledge which doesn't even claim to be divinely inspired. That is what my reason tells me.tragic mishap
May 11, 2012
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