Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

TEs Must Say the Explanation of an Illusion is Itself an Illusion as the Price of Admission to the “Cool Kids” Club

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Editors:  This was originally posted under a different title in May 2012.  We were inspired to repost it by Dr. Sewell’s post here

Bishop Ussher famously calculated that the universe was created on October 23, 4004 BC.  I do not hold this or any other young earth creationist (YEC) position.  The evidence that the universe is several billion years old seems fairly compelling to me.  In particular, certain celestial objects (stars, galaxies, supernovas, etc.) are billions of light years away.  From this fact I deduce that the light we see from these objects has been traveling billions of years to get to us, which leads to the conclusion that the objects emitted the light billions of years ago, which in turn means the objects are billions of years old.  This chain of inferences obviously leaves no room for an age of the universe measured in only thousands of years.

YEC proponents have the same evidence as the rest of us, and they admit the universe appears to be billions of years old.  Nevertheless, they persist in their YEC beliefs.  How can they do this?  There is an enormous body of literature on the subject that cannot be summarized adequately in the confines of a blog post, but the short answer is YECs have erected a series of plausible (to them) explanations for the apparent age of the universe.  For example, some YECs hold that just as God created Adam with apparent age (i.e, he started out as an adult; he was never an infant, a toddler, or a teenager), God also created the universe with apparent age.  This means that the light we see from those distant objects was not emitted billions of years ago.  Instead, God created that light “in route.”  Other YECs assert that the speed of light need not have been constant, and if light traveled in the past many times faster than it does now, our deductions about the age of the universe based on an assumption that the speed of light has always been the same would be wrong.

I do not reject YEC reasoning such as this as a logical impossibility.  By this I mean that while God cannot do logically impossible things (e.g., he cannot make a “square circle” or cause 2+2 to equal 73), he can perform miracles.  He can turn water into wine; he can make five loaves of bread and two fish feed thousands of people.  Indeed, the very act of creating the universe — no matter when he did it — was a miracle.  Therefore, I conclude that God, being God, could have created the universe on October 23, 4004 BC and made it look billions of years old just as the YECs say, even if that is not what I personally believe.  

The YEC position cannot, therefore, be refuted as a logical impossibility.  Nor can it be refuted by appealing to the evidence.  “Wait just a cotton picking minute Barry!” you might say.  “In the first paragraph you told us you believe the ‘evidence’ leads to the conclusion that the universe is billions of years old.”  And so I did.  Here is where we must distinguish between the evidence, which is the same for everyone, and an interpretive framework for that evidence, which can vary.  By “interpretive framework” I mean the set of unprovable assumptions each of us brings to bear when we analyze the evidence.  For example, the vast majority of scientists assume that the speed of light has been constant since the beginning of the universe.  As we have seen, some YEC scientists believe that light has slowed down significantly since the creation event.  Obviously, conclusions about the age of the universe from the “light evidence” will vary enormously depending upon which group is correct.  

Very interestingly, despite the fact that most people believe that it is a scientifically proven “fact” that the speed of light has always been the same as it is now, it most certainly is not.  The current speed of light is an observable scientific fact.  We cannot, however, know with certainty what the speed of light was before observations of the speed of light were made.  This assertion is not in the least controversial.  Mainstream scientists admit that their assumptions about the fixed nature of the speed of light in the remote past are just that, assumptions.  In philosophical terms, mainstream scientists subscribe to “uniformitarianism,” the assumption that physical processes operated in the past in the same way they are observed to operate now.  YEC scientists by and large reject uniformitarianism.  Which group is correct is beside my point.  The point is that uniformitarianism is an assumption of most scientists.  It has not been, and indeed as a matter of strict logic cannot be, demonstrated by science.  In other words, the uniformitarian assumption is part of the interpretive framework mainstream scientists bring to bear on the evidence.  The uniformitarian assumption is not part of the evidence itself.

This brings me to the point of this post.  I don’t usually argue with YEC’s, because no matter how long and hard you argue with them, you will never convince them based on appeals to logic and evidence.  There is, almost literally, nothing you can say that might change their mind, so arguing with them is usually pointless.  Yes, the YEC proponent has the same evidence that you do, but he interprets that evidence within a different interpretive framework.  You might think his interpretive framework is flawed, but you cannot say, as a matter of strict logic, that his interpretive framework must be necessarily flawed.  In other words, you must admit that as a matter of strict logic it is possible, for instance, for light to be slower now than it was in the past.  And given the premise of some YECs that light is in fact slower now than it was in the past, their conclusions might then follow.  

Why do YECs reject uniformitarianism?  Because they are devoted to a particular interpretation of the Biblical creation account.  They believe the Bible says the universe was created in six days a few thousand years ago, and if they are going to believe the Bible is true they must therefore believe the universe was created in six days a few thousand years ago.  It does no good to appeal to logic or evidence.  As I have demonstrated above, a young universe is not a logical impossibility and no matter what evidence you adduce that, to you, indicates the universe is very old, the YEC will have an answer (e.g., “light has slowed down”). 

I was thinking about this yesterday when we were discussing the theistic evolutionists (TEs) over at BioLogos.  TEs are like YECs in this respect — they cling to a scientific view that runs counter to the obvious evidence because of their prior commitments.  

Let me explain what I mean.  Just as it is “obvious” that the universe appears to be several billion years old, it is “obvious” that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  That statement is not based on my religious beliefs; even the atheists believe that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  Arch-atheist Richard Dawkins famously said that “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”  Surely our friends at BioLogos will go as far as atheist Dawkins and admit that living things “appear” to have been designed for a purpose.  

Now notice the similarity between TEs and YECs:  Everyone concedes that the universe appears to be billions of years old; everyone concedes that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  YECs say the first appearance is an illusion.  TEs  say the second appearance is an illusion.  

We have already seen how YECs come to the conclusion that the apparent age of the universe is an illusion.  How do TEs come to the conclusion that the appearance of design in living things is an illusion?  The same way Richard Dawkins does, by appealing to the marvelous creative powers of Darwinian processes that, he says, are able to mimic design through strictly natural means.  Darwinists say, as they must, that the appearance of design that they admit exists is not real but an illusion.  Indeed, the whole purpose of the Darwinian theory of origins is to account for the appearance of design without having to resort to a designer. 

YECs reject the “obvious” conclusion about the age of the universe because of their prior commitments.  Why do TEs reject the “obvious” conclusion about the design of living things?  Further, why do TEs reject that obvious conclusion in the very teeth of the Biblical injunction to regard the appearance of design as proof of God’s existence (Romans 1).  

The answer has to do with what I call the “cool kids” impulse that all humans have to one extent or another.  When I was in school all of the “cool kids” sat at a particular table at lunch, and everyone wanted to be in that group.  I was not a cool kid, and I figured out pretty early that, for better or ill, the streak of stubborn individualism that runs to my very core would probably prevent me from ever being a cool kid.  I refused to conform and in order to be a cool kid you have to conform to the other cool kids.  Don’t get me wrong.  I very much wanted to be a cool kid.  Everyone wants to be a cool kid, and believe me, my life would have been so much easier if I had been a cool kid.  This is sociology 101.  But I was unwilling (perhaps even unable) to pay the price of admission to the cool kids club – i.e., conformity.

The cool kids impulse does not go away when we are adults, and in the academic community all of the cool kids sit at the Darwinian table.  TEs want to be cool kids; they want to be respectable and accepted in the academic community.  Sadly for them, the price the academic cool kids club extracts for admission is denial of the obvious appearance of design in living things and acceptance of the patent absurdity that the accretion of random errors sorted by a fitness function can account for the stupendously complex nano-machines we call cells.  

This is not, however, the end of the story for TEs.  They know that to deny design in the universe is to deny the designer of the universe, which is to deny God, and what is the point of being a TE if you reject the “T” part?  In order to maintain their membership in the cool kids club TEs slam the front door in God’s face when they deny the reality underlying the apparent design of living things that even atheists admit.  But they are perfectly willing to let God in the backdoor just so long as he stays out of sight and doesn’t get them kicked out of the club.  

As I discussed yesterday, I am thinking of TEs like Stephen Barr.  Dr. Barr is perfectly happy to accept the Darwinian account of evolution.  Darwinism says that mechanical necessity (i.e., natural selection) plus random chance (mutation, drift, etc.) are sufficient to account for the apparent design of living things.  It is, in StephenB’s words, a “design-free random process.”  In his “Miracle of Evolution,” Dr. Barr slams the front door shut on God when he accepts the Darwinian account.  Then he cracks the backdoor open ever so slightly to let God slip in when he asserts that what we perceive as a “design-free random process” is really, at a deeper level of existence, directed by God in a way that is empirically undetectable at this level of existence.

Barr is saying that in order to maintain his membership in the cool kids club he must affirm that evolution is purely random and design free.  How is his position different from the atheist position espoused by Richard Dawkins?  At the level of existence in which we examine empirical data, Barr’s position is identical to Dawkins’ position.  But, says Barr, when he uses the word “random,” he really means “apparently random but really directed.”  Apparently, Barr believes that, in Einstein’s famous phrase, God really does play dice with the universe.  But according to Barr, God, has loaded the dice so that they rolled “life,” however improbable that might have been (like a thousand 7′s in a row with real dice), and God’s dice loading is so clever that the “fix” can never be detected empirically. 

In this way Barr maintains membership in the academic cool kids club by espousing a Darwinian account of origins that is indistinguishable from the account of origins that atheists like Dawkins and Dennnett espouse.  Yet he keeps the “T” in his “TE” by saying that at a wholly different level of existence God fixed the game so that “random” is not really random but “directed.”  He wants to have it both ways. 

Here again, the TE position is exactly the same as the YEC position.  As we have already seen, you cannot push a YEC off his position by appealing to logic or evidence.  Nor can you push Dr. Barr off his position by appealing to logic and evidence.  We cannot rule Barr’s position out on strictly logical grounds.  God, being God, can certainly fix the dice in an empirically undetectable way if that is how he wants to accomplish his purposes.  Nor, by definition, can one rule Barr’s position out empirically short of finding the proverbial “made by YHWH” inscription on a cell.  

Finally, there is a certain irony in Barr’s position.  The atheist says living things appear to be designed but the appearance of design is an illusion explained by random Darwinian processes.  The TE says that living things appear to be designed but the appearance of design is an illusion explained by random Darwinian processes, BUT the randomness of Darwinian process is itself an illusion, because those processes are really directed by God to produce living things.  Thus, according to the TEs, the explanation of one illusion (the randomness of underlying Darwinism), which is an explanation of another illusion (the apparent design of living things) is, you guessed it, design.  Another way of putting it is the TE says design is an illusion explained by random process which are in turn an illusion explained by design.  As the comedian says, “That’s funny.  I don’t care who you are.”

Comments
tragic mishap, No, you (and presumably Nelson) assumes the promissory note is cashable "paid in full." Neither you nor Nelson know that decades of "fully funded" research would even allow you to cash in on that note whereas the evidence at least backs the currency of OEC now in hand. I think the analogy holds. The differences are indeed quantitative and qualitative. But as often happens in these kinds of discussions we reach a point at which it ceases to be meaningful or productive. We're at that "is so" "is not" point. I leave you with this: Whatever our disagreements we share much more as fellow believers who BOTH agree that creationists have not been given a fair and equitable place by the powerbrokers of modern science. Let's leave it at that. I wish you well . . .Flannery
May 11, 2012
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StephenB, I am glad that you believe that Christianity passes the test of reason. So do I. But I hope your faith is not only based on reason. I hope you have had the confirmation of the Holy Spirit. When I read the New Testament, I got down on my knees and asked God if it was true. I got a spiritual witness, a strong feeling that it is true. I think that this is important for every believer. Not to replace reason, but in addition to it.Collin
May 11, 2012
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tragic: I understand your point. Yes, then one would think of the intelligent designer as an efficient cause. No argument. But I'm looking at the bigger picture. Why is he causing this mutation rather than that one? Or rearranging the genome this way rather than that way? Obviously, because he has an end in mind. You have given an example of what Dembski calls an externally imposed teleology, rather than an internally driven teleology (where the universe is naturally striving in a certain direction, to reach an inbuilt natural goal). Both are possible understandings within the ID camp. Note, however, that as far as design *detection* is concerned, the method is the same for either external or internal teleology. If we can show that it is wildly improbable that undirected processes would produce result X, we say that there was a plan of some kind. (Whether that plan was executed by someone pushing particles around, or by some sort of pre-programming causing a process to unfold into its natural end, the design inference itself can't determine. Another line of investigation would be required to settle which of the two possibilities was in play.) My point was that "science," understood as "natural cause explanations only," and where "natural cause" means "no one tinkered with anything, and no one rigged anything," can't allow either internal or external forms of teleology. But if we change the definition of "science" and/or the definition of "natural cause," then ID explanations could be scientific. And what stops us from changing the definition of science? (Or for that matter, of "natural cause"?) As far as I can see, nothing but a 400-year-old habit. But the habits of civilizations change, in the long run. Maybe 100 years from now, design explanations will be considered a legitimate part of natural science. That could easily happen, if our understanding of "science" and "nature" and "explanation" all change.Timaeus
May 11, 2012
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--tragic: "No reason why science can’t have its own domain. But science is not an entity. People practice science for various reasons, and therefore they enter into the “domain” of science in pursuit of various goals. The goal of showing the scientific plausibility of the Genesis account is not qualitatively different than, for instance, attempting to find a vaccine for HIV. The goal cannot be decided by science, since science isn’t an agent." I am not sure that I understand your language, but I do know that faith and reason must be compatible or else there is no such thing as truth. The Bible contains both theology and philosophy. Romans 1:20, for example, is a philosophical statement as much as a theological statement, maybe more. In effect, it tells us that God created a rational universe ripe for investigation and, that God speaks through nature in a fashion consistent with that kind of investigation. So, when that investigation is conducted, through philosophy or science, it will, if undertaken without error, lead to truth--not the kind of truth that will save us, to be sure, but the kind of truth that will confirm the saving truth and show us that it is not contrary to reason. Indeed, faith illuminates reason, as I am sure you would agree. Still, institutional expressions of faith must first pass the test of reason before presuming to ask reason to submit to them. When a Muslim, for example, says that I should take the Koran on faith, or when a Christian tells me that I should take the bible on faith, I point out that I must first discern which belief system deserves to be believed, that is, which belief system passes the test of reason. I must accept one and reject the other and only reason can help me make that calculation. Admonitions to faith are useless at that point. For me, Christianity passes the test of reason so I allow that belief system to illuminate my reason.StephenB
May 11, 2012
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Collin @ 79 Agreed on all counts. Thought I think current circumstances require a narrower definition of science, I wish it didn't.tragic mishap
May 11, 2012
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Well, Flannery, why don't you ask Nelson? If the only difference is the amount of time and money spent on each activity, that's quantitative. That is, after all, exactly what Nelson said:
In many cases, young earth creationists would need decades of fully funded research just to begin to get a grasp on a new way of looking at the mountain of current data.
I don't know where your accounting analogy came from, but it's a poor one.tragic mishap
May 11, 2012
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Timaeus @ 73
If we define “science” as a mode of investigation which in principle cannot speak of teleology but only of efficient causes, then by definition intelligent design cannot be science.
I wouldn't even go that far. Intelligent design counts as efficient cause if the designer "moves the particles," which is exactly what IDists are arguing. Sounds like efficient cause to me, even if you insist on using Aristotle.tragic mishap
May 11, 2012
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It's certainly a tough question: "Is the universally acknowledged illusion of design a scientific illusion or only a philosophical or psychological one?" Presumably not a scientific one, because science can see through it to the unguided mechanism beneath. But suppose there were a dramatic miraculous intervention (much along the lines of what Darrel Falk was giving slight elbow room to on BioLogos)? Would science be able to detect it, or would it then suffer the illusion of non-design?Jon Garvey
May 11, 2012
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tragic mishap @ 71 Actually, now that you mention it, it is a quantitative AND a qualitative difference. Trust me, an accounts receivable ledger regards cash in hand versus a promissory note as a difference of both kinds. I think that's what we have here.Flannery
May 11, 2012
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Collin: The word "faith" is very elastic in meaning, and I don't insist on any one definition as the only correct one, but if you read enough BioLogos columns, you will find that at least some of the time, the writers use the word "faith" as I have used it. I was probably unconsciously reproducing that usage. I think their idea, put into coherent form, is that "faith" is the spiritual capacity that enables us to hear the extra-scientific truths that God makes known to us. It is "the eye of faith," they would say, that enables us to look at a wild array of random mutations and see, without any scientific evidence, that God is behind them all. I'm not *defending* this understanding of the relationship between what we know by science and what we know by faith (or if you prefer, by revelation); I'm merely reporting it as commonly held by the TEs at BioLogos.Timaeus
May 11, 2012
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tragic mishap, The big problem here is that "science" is so poorly defined. A long time ago, science just meant "knowledge" or some kind of research. AFter all, that's why its "Political Science" even though its not really a "science" as most would define the word. I prefer to take a very broad view of the word "science." To me "science" means any scholarly endeavor that is strongly informed by systematic observation and logical reasoning. Even if that includes history, theology, astrology etc.Collin
May 11, 2012
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StephenB: My problem is that I don't know Barr's thought on neo-Darwinism that well. His podcast debate with Behe was on more general features of "science" as such, not the particulars of neo-Darwinism. I also read something he wrote a year or two ago on First Things. But I don't recall much detailed discussion of biological details. Is Barr saying that mutations are *truly* random yet also directed? Or is he saying that mutations are only *apparently* random, and actually directed? If he is saying the latter, his position would be like that of Russell, and comprehensible; if he is saying the former, his position would be like that of Falk, Venema, and Applegate, and incomprehensible.Timaeus
May 11, 2012
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Timmaeus, Forgive me, but it drives me nuts when people use the word "faith" as a form of knowing. I much prefer the term "revelation." When a non-believer hears "faith" they think, "oh, like in the tooth fairy?" or "you just gotta believe, even though there's no evidence or warrant?" To me, the only way of knowing that the Bible is true is either through historical analysis or personal revelation from the Holy Spirit. Then you have faith when you remember the personal revelation you have had and don't abandon it when faced with temptation from the world. Faith is not the source of knowledge; faith is being confident in the knowledge you got from a trustworthy source.Collin
May 11, 2012
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Stephen @72, No reason why science can't have its own domain. But science is not an entity. People practice science for various reasons, and therefore they enter into the "domain" of science in pursuit of various goals. The goal of showing the scientific plausibility of the Genesis account is not qualitatively different than, for instance, attempting to find a vaccine for HIV. The goal cannot be decided by science, since science isn't an agent.tragic mishap
May 11, 2012
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Timaeus @62. For my part, I am less concerned with Barr's motivations and more concerned with his linguistic violence: Non-teleological Darwinism becomes "teleological" and yet remains Darwinism, by name; Ramdomness becomes directed and yet remains randomness by name. Oh, but wait, the -non-teleology that morphed into teleology swings back to non-teleology quietly, and just long enough, to reduce biological design to an "illusion" and away we go again. Don't you have a problem with any of that?StephenB
May 11, 2012
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Barry Arrington: Good point about Gonzalez. But of course Gonzalez's particular teleological heresy was in astrophysics, not biology. He was punished by astrophysicists for intruding teleology into their field, not for making any comments about teleology in biology. But that's a fine distinction. I agree with you that there is a general pressure on scientists to exclude teleology from their explanations. I think I was trying to say that the details of *a particular theory* in biology are not a matter of professional pride for a physicist. So, for example, if it turned out that Shapiro's biology, or Denton's biology, or some other, crushed neo-Darwinism, Barr could easily shift his allegiance away from neo-Darwinism to whatever biological alternative the biologists shift to. It's not his field, and none of his career ambitions as a physicist are at stake, no matter which view of evolution wins out. Falk and Venema, on the other hand, perceive (wrongly) that neo-Darwinism is the future of evolutionary biology, and they perceive (wrongly) that there is advantage to be gained by siding with neo-Darwinists like Coyne, Orr, Dawkins, Lewontin, etc. And as it is biology that they very much want to be respected in, they have a motive to toady up to the neo-Darwinists. A physicist has only an indirect concern with the details of current evolutionary theory. So Barr is relatively freer than the others I mentioned. Not entirely free of the pressure to conform to "scientific opinion," but free of the pressure to conform specifically to "random mutations plus natural selection." He might personally accept the Darwinian account, but I think he only experiences about 1/3 of the peer pressure that Falk and Venema do. So we are disagreeing only in emphasis.Timaeus
May 11, 2012
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Ted Davis: Your recent return to active duty at BioLogos is a welcome development. I did not have you in mind when I was characterizing BioLogos TEs. Of course, now that you are back, I will have to watch my generalizations in the future. A number of statements have been made on BioLogos to the effect that atheists and TEs do science exactly the same way, but that TEs, unlike atheists, see design in nature, not due to their science, *and not based on any philosophical reasoning*, but because they look at nature with the eyes of faith. Barr (and presumably you and Polkinghorne) would differ from that stance, in that you all would grant the possibility of philosophical arguments for design, not scientific in themselves, but based on the results of modern science. That is not a view that is very often voiced on BioLogos. BioLogos tends to enforce a sharp cleavage between faith and science as two alien and incommensurate ways of knowing, not in contradiction but not logically related to each other. This goes hand-in-hand with a hostility to natural theology, which has been evident in a number of comments by columnists. Catholics and Anglicans tend to be less hostile to natural theology; thus, it is not surprising to me that Barr and Polkinghorne take the positions that they do. As far as "science" goes, it's all a matter of definitions. If we define "science" as a mode of investigation which in principle cannot speak of teleology but only of efficient causes, then by definition intelligent design cannot be science. But victories won by mere definition are vacuous. The question in natural science ought to be, not, "What explanations will our arbitrary, historically-determined epistemological and methodological rules allow?" but "What rational explanation best accords with the phenomena?" If the best rational explanation involves design, then, in a broader understanding of natural science, design explanations would be perfectly scientific. There is no doubt that restricting science to purely efficient causes made science very productive. The question is whether that restriction does not -- in some cases -- put blinders on science in certain areas which will make it miss the truth about nature. Darwin's understanding of "scientific" explanation required excluding teleological explanation; hence, if it should turn out that teleology *was* involved in the origin of species, Darwin's theory, however methodologically correct by NCSE standards, will cause the world to believe what is not true. And how can what is not true be counted as "science"? Science means "knowledge", and a falsehood cannot be knowledge, no matter how rigorous the method through which it was arrived at. The debate launched by Steve Meyer over the origin of life shows exactly the same problem; it's clear from the objections to his argument that the BioLogos biologists, just as much as the atheist biologists, will accept only efficient-cause explanations, and would wait ten thousand years for one to come along sooner than grant that design is the best explanation. For such "scientists" the only two explanatory options are: (1) We now have an efficient-cause explanation, rendering design explanations redundant; (2) We haven't got an efficient-cause answer YET, but someday we will, so design inferences are premature and unscientific. The artificial ruling-out of what might, in the final reckoning, be *the correct description of what actually happened*, is quite obvious. Method is ranked higher than truth on the order of priorities. This is philosophically questionable, to say the very least. Thus, Barr is completely correct to say that science *as typically defined* excludes design explanations, and he logically has to move all such explanations over to philosophy or theology. But a broader conception of science could embrace design explanations. We know from the history of science that such broader conceptions have existed (in pre-modern Europe, India, etc.). The modern West made a social choice to restrict the meaning of the term. But all social choices are revisable.Timaeus
May 11, 2012
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--tragic mishap: "I never said that. If I’m reading you right, I think I can tacitly agree with the distinction and accept that scientific methodologies do not require assumptions." In that case, it would seem that we agree on the essentials. Scientific methodology and analysis does not necessarily begin with an assumption, although scientific epistemology does. How, then, does it follow that scientific reasoning, i.e. scientific protocol, "depends" on (a belief in?)( truths found in?) Genesis. Why cannot science have its own domain, albeit one which is intimately related with and compatible with) Theology?StephenB
May 11, 2012
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Flannery @60
It seems to me the difference is OECs say the verdict is in, the data suggests an OE; YEC is still in its promissory note phase. Now that seems a qualitative difference to me.
That's not a "qualitative" difference. That's the definition of quantitative. You're trying to take Nelson's quote and turn it into the idea that there's something fundamentally different about creationism versus other scientific theories. That's not even close to what Nelson was saying.tragic mishap
May 11, 2012
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“Truths provided by God through his Divine revelation are consistent with truths apprehended through God’s revelation in nature. Faith and reason are perfectly compatible. TEs do not believe this, to their discredit.” --Ted Davis "Anyone inclined to believe this is invited to read about my work at http://biologos.org/blog/introducing-ted-davis." Ted, you are too funny. You can disabuse me of that posture anytime by confessing that God's designs are evident in all of nature, just as it says in Romans 1:20. Biology, I hasten to remind you, is part of nature. --"Why not listen to it yourself, Stephen, before discrediting anyone and everyone you may disagree with?" Why not answer my follow up questions from past discussions and earn the right to be read?StephenB
May 11, 2012
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Again you are not understanding me, Stephen. I was responding to 41 with 43, after which you asked me that question. I do not agree with your interpretation of 43, because you are assuming that I believe "scientific methodologies" require assumptions. I never said that. If I'm reading you right, I think I can tacitly agree with the distinction and accept that scientific methodologies do not require assumptions.tragic mishap
May 11, 2012
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--tragic mishap: "I don’t think you understood what I was saying. I was not saying “scientific methodologies,” if I have understood you correctly here, require assumptions. I was saying that our scientific epistemology directs when, where and to what problems we apply our scientific methodologies." If you will recall, I am the one who made the distinction between epistemology and methodology. Scientific methodology uses a protocol that begins with observation. If you disagree with me, then pleases answer my questions: If scientific methodology requires assumptions, how is a scientific inference possible and how is circular reasoning avoided.StephenB
May 11, 2012
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Timaeus: “Keep in mind that all of these guys are physicists/astronomers, and that they have no need to worry about what neo-Darwinian biologists think of them.” Your focus is too narrow. It is not just neo-Darwinian biologists that scholars need to worry about when they would dare question academic orthodoxy, because neo-Darwinism is part of the larger materialist hegemony in academia. A scholar bucks that orthodoxy at his own risk, even an astro-physicist. Just ask Guillermo Gonzalez.Barry Arrington
May 11, 2012
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Ted, Would you say that there are other sources of truth than empiricism and revelation? If so, what are they? I mean, there is philosophy, but that is making inferences and deductions based on what is observed or revealed, imho. So to give an example, is SETI a religion? Do they know that extraterrestrials exist without having seen or heard from them (or received revelation that they exist)? If so, how could they?Collin
May 11, 2012
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Timaeus @62 discusses Barr (thank you for defending him) and points to differences he perceives with TEs at BioLogos. I'm presently one of the TEs at BioLogos, and I view design arguments pretty much as Barr does--they can be rationally defended, but they aren't scientific (per se). That has been my view for a long time; I've aired it here and elsewhere many times. It's not simply a matter of private faith--that is a caricature of my views (for example), although I don't think that belief in God is something that arises *without* faith. IMO, the main distinction between ID and TE appears to be exactly this: whether or not design arguments (which I and many other TEs will make) are "scientific." Polkinghorne would perhaps be the person most associated with such an attitude. His book, "Belief in God in an Age of Science," is a pertinent example; see the title essay.Ted Davis
May 11, 2012
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Stephen writes: "Truths provided by God through his Divine revelation are consistent with truths apprehended through God’s revelation in nature. Faith and reason are perfectly compatible. TEs do not believe this, to their discredit." Anyone inclined to believe this is invited to read about my work at http://biologos.org/blog/introducing-ted-davis. BE SURE TO LISTEN TO THE INTERVIEW that you can download there. It takes about an hour, and it constitutes the best introduction to the ideas of this particular TE (yours truly) that is available anywhere. Why not listen to it yourself, Stephen, before discrediting anyone and everyone you may disagree with?Ted Davis
May 11, 2012
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Flannery 60 The arguments are qualitatively different. You are forcing a particular rendering of historical science upon the Word of God regardless of what the prepondance of the evidence of biblical hermeneutics suggests. General Revelation has more ambiguity than Special Revelation. If we read the text "Brutus stabbed Caesar" we have a clear idea of what happened REGARDLESS of how the evidence may appear. or Suppose there is a team of BRILLIANT scientists in China and they have a system of telescopes and mirrors that allows them to watch George Bush every time he is outside or near a window. A couple minor points: No one on this team can understand English (and they do not have access to an interpreter). The telescopes and mirrors have only been operational for 3 weeks, but they have a video record of EVERY sighting since the system launched. This gives them the advantage of being able to rewind the video and verify any theories they come up with. You have been told that you will win 29 million yuan if you are able to answer one question correctly: 'What grade did George receive in 8th grade Math?'. You are given the opportunity to consult the BRILLIANT scientists (through an interpreter) and they inform you that they are quite confident George received an 'A'. They have some BRILLIANT and FASCINATING observations that explain how they arrived at this conclusion. They also ALL agree. (All 7,342,326 of them) You also have George's 8th grade report card. It has been authenticated by George's 8th grade teacher, principal, and superintendent. The report card says that George's grade was actually a 'C+'. Now you have a quandary: How will you answer the 29 Million Yuan Question? Will you throw caution to the wind and disagree with the 7,342,326 BRILLIANT Chinese scientists? Suppose they send a delegation of handwriting experts and that delegation tells you 'That may look like a 'C+', but if you hold the report card at an angle and squint, you will have to agree that the grade is actually an 'A''bevets
May 11, 2012
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I have limited acquaintance with the arguments of Barr, but based on what I have read, and heard, I'm inclined to interpret Barr somewhat along the lines that Deuce sets forth above. In Barr's podcast debate with Behe of about a year or two ago -- a debate which was a model of civility -- Barr seemed to argue as follows: 1. Natural science is not the only source of truth. 2. Intelligent design arguments are not scientific arguments. 3. Intelligent design arguments are philosophical arguments, or theological arguments. 4. But philosophical or theological arguments can be just as true as scientific arguments, because, as already argued, natural science is not the only source of truth. 5. The public has too high an expectation of scientists; it expects them not only to be good at identifying natural causes, but at making grand pronouncements about reality. I thinks they must have deep philosophical or theological wisdom. In fact, scientists are no wiser philosophically or theologically than the man on the street, and on the big questions they are very unsafe guides. The question whether or not there is design in nature is one of those big questions. 6. By lowering our expectations of scientists, we protect religious belief from damaging claims by over-reaching, unwise scientists. From scientists we should expect efficient-cause explanations for things. That will keep their hands off religion and theology. 7. We are perfectly free, no matter what certain aggressive atheist scientists may say, to infer design in nature, based on philosophical or theological grounds. 8. Intelligent design arguments can therefore be rational, persuasive, and even true; they just aren't scientific. Now I found much of what Barr argued to be reasonable. I liked his criticism of the over-reaching of the scientists, and I liked his warning to the public that scientists -- his colleagues -- are no wiser on deep issues than the man in the street. I also liked his admission that ID arguments could be both rational and true. Barr was basically accepting the modern understanding of natural science as a limited endeavor aimed at accounting for efficient causes, and he was pushing questions of teleology into the areas of philosophy and theology. This division, while it may be unsatisfactory to many of us here (it's unsatisfactory to me), has a long pedigree, going back to Bacon and Descartes, two of the spiritual founders of modern science. It's true that the TEs over at BioLogos also make a distinction between natural science, with its emphasis on efficient causes, and theology, which can talk about design or purpose. So there is a superficial resemblance with the view of Barr. But I think there is a big difference. I think that for the BioLogos TEs, reason cannot infer design in nature. For BioLogos, design in nature is something that we can see only through the eye of faith. For Barr, design in nature can be perceived by the reason. I think that Barr's Catholicism -- which allows for a limited natural theology -- gives him a different perspective, one in some ways compatible with ID. The fideism of the TEs at BioLogos, however, makes any imputation of design purely a private religious truth, a matter of religious taste, so to speak. Thus, on BioLogos there have been many slurs, direct and indirect, against the tradition of natural theology. These slurs are made by people (scientists dabbling in theology) who don't know the primary texts of the Christian tradition in which natural theology is discussed, and clearly proceed from Protestant, especially Barthian and Pietist, prejudices. You don't get that from Barr. I thus see Barr as offering a more nuanced form of TE than that offered by the BioLogos-TEs. I cannot speak for Barr's personal motives. I don't know the man. I would therefore hesitate to say that he is animated by the desire to be one of the cool people. I don't have enough personal insight into him to say that. I think that at BioLogos, however, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest that this is strong motivation. We know, as a matter of biographical fact, that many regular and occasional posters on BioLogos -- Falk, Giberson, Venema, Lamoureux, Isaac -- used to be fundamentalist creationists of various sorts, often of the YEC variety. When they were of this persuasion, their science was ridiculed by their teachers and/or colleagues as primitive, ignorant, etc. Many of them have indicated the "crisis of faith" that evolutionary theory put them through. They fought the spiritual battle of their lives to come to acceptance of evolution, and they never want to go back to where there were -- being ridiculed by both secular and Christian scientific colleagues for rejecting evolution. We see evidence of this in Darrel Falk's public overtures to Dawkins and Coyne of a couple of years ago, which amounted to: "Don't confuse us with those ID and YEC people; we accept good science, too! Please accept us as your biological colleagues!" Of course, the pleas fell on deaf ears; Dawkins and Coyne continued to treat BioLogos with contempt, and soon Coyne was savagely (and unjustly) attacking the appointment of Francis Collins to the NIH. (As any excluded teenager knows, flattering the cool kids will usually not get you into their inner circle; once you are stereotyped as a nerd, geek, or sissy, you stay that way.) In assessing motivation, we also have to keep in mind the scientific track record of Barr vs. the BioLogos TEs. As I understand it -- correct me if I'm wrong -- Barr is a published physicist who is respected among his secular colleagues. He doesn't need to prove himself. But as far as I have discovered via internet search, the only biological publication Falk ever had was his doctoral dissertation, and that is "published" only as a copy in the library of the university that granted him his Ph.D. Possibly he published a few articles during his 8 or 9 years at a real university, but if so, I can find no record of them. And it certainly appears that he has not published a single scientific article since his "transition to Christian higher education" nearly 30 years ago. Giberson's track record is similarly invisible. Possibly he published a few articles in physics soon after graduating, but he seems to have settled in very quickly at a Nazarene College, and to have adopted the life of an undergraduate teacher rather than a physics researcher. I can't find any scientific articles of his on the internet, and his web site, which trumpets all his popular publications, lists not a single peer-reviewed technical article. Applegate graduated with her Ph.D. only a couple of years ago. Her mini-biography on BioLogos mentions no publications at all. She apparently does not have either a permanent academic position with any university, or any post-doctoral fellowships. Dennis Venema has, according to the web site at his university, about half a dozen publications, but at least one of those is in the ASA journal, and that doesn't count as a peer-reviewed technical publication. So, in short, the "big guns" of BioLogos, the ones who preach about what "good science" requires, have, among the whole lot of them, far fewer peer-reviewed scientific articles than Mike Behe does alone. So we are dealing with a group of people who have very little confirmation from the secular scientific world of their scientific talents. Such people are very likely to be motivated by the need for approval from mainstream scientists -- from the "cool kids" who accept neo-Darwinism. I think that Barr is not like that. I think also that Polkinghorne, Gingerich (Harvard astronomer), Russell (scholar in theology and science), and Murphy (accomplished physicist prior to becoming a pastor) are not like that. I think they are all secure in their own skins, knowing that they are or were good scientists, and don't have to seek the approval of anyone. Keep in mind that all of these guys are physicists/astronomers, and that they have no need to worry about what neo-Darwinian biologists think of them. They could thumb their noses at neo-Darwinian biology if they wanted to, and get away with it; their status in physics would protect them. (Remember that biology is still considered a junior and inferior and less rigorous science by most physicists.) So if they accept Darwinian biology, presumably they are persuaded by the arguments for it, not cowed into it by pressure from the biologists. So I think that Barr disagrees with us, not out of any desire to win the favor of biologists, but because he is persuaded (for good reasons or bad) that there is a lot of evidence for Darwinian biology, and because he has a different understanding of the division between science and philosophy and theology. We can try to educate him on the gross scientific defects of neo-Darwinian theory, and we can dispute his division of the branches of knowledge which excludes design arguments from natural science; but I suspect that he is wholly sincere and not motivated (not very much, anyway) by the desire for the approval of Coyne, Dawkins, Lewontin, etc.Timaeus
May 11, 2012
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Barry- There is one version of YEC that has an old universe and a young earth- Dr Humphrey's "Starlight and Time"- God created the universe using relativity, ie time dilation caused by the gravity well of the white hole.Joe
May 11, 2012
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The arguments are qualitatively different. You are forcing a particular rendering of Scripture upon the natural world regardless of what the prepondance of the evidence of the natural world suggests. Instead, you prefer to shoehorn your reading of Genesis into anfractuous arguments about the speed of light, geological strata, etc. If an alternative view of Genesis does not a) fly in the face of natural evidence, and b) has little bearing upon orthodoxy (i.e. the resurrection, the Trinity, accountability and Divine judgement, etc.), why insist upon what seems to be a more difficult if not idiosyncratic rendering of Scripture? I think Augustine would have agreed. But if you acknowledge that an OE interpretation is a possible alternative to a YE interpretation, then really the issue is rather moot. You'd have to admit, however, that there are qualitative differences in the respective positions. Even Paul Nelson and John Mark Reynolds admit as much, stating "young earth creationism is generally underdeveloped. It is not ready for a for such a specific interchange [with critics]. . . . In many cases, young earth creationists would need decades of fully funded research just to begin to get a grasp on a new way of looking at the mountain of current data." That was more than ten years ago and the situation has changed little, bearing out the comment just quoted. It seems to me the difference is OECs say the verdict is in, the data suggests an OE; YEC is still in its promissory note phase. Now that seems a qualitative difference to me. Now in fairness OE could be shown to be wrong (that's always a possibility), but at present that just doesn't seem likely. And that's a qualitative difference.Flannery
May 11, 2012
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