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TEs Must Say the Explanation of an Illusion is Itself an Illusion as the Price of Admission to the “Cool Kids” Club

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Editors:  This was originally posted under a different title in May 2012.  We were inspired to repost it by Dr. Sewell’s post here

Bishop Ussher famously calculated that the universe was created on October 23, 4004 BC.  I do not hold this or any other young earth creationist (YEC) position.  The evidence that the universe is several billion years old seems fairly compelling to me.  In particular, certain celestial objects (stars, galaxies, supernovas, etc.) are billions of light years away.  From this fact I deduce that the light we see from these objects has been traveling billions of years to get to us, which leads to the conclusion that the objects emitted the light billions of years ago, which in turn means the objects are billions of years old.  This chain of inferences obviously leaves no room for an age of the universe measured in only thousands of years.

YEC proponents have the same evidence as the rest of us, and they admit the universe appears to be billions of years old.  Nevertheless, they persist in their YEC beliefs.  How can they do this?  There is an enormous body of literature on the subject that cannot be summarized adequately in the confines of a blog post, but the short answer is YECs have erected a series of plausible (to them) explanations for the apparent age of the universe.  For example, some YECs hold that just as God created Adam with apparent age (i.e, he started out as an adult; he was never an infant, a toddler, or a teenager), God also created the universe with apparent age.  This means that the light we see from those distant objects was not emitted billions of years ago.  Instead, God created that light “in route.”  Other YECs assert that the speed of light need not have been constant, and if light traveled in the past many times faster than it does now, our deductions about the age of the universe based on an assumption that the speed of light has always been the same would be wrong.

I do not reject YEC reasoning such as this as a logical impossibility.  By this I mean that while God cannot do logically impossible things (e.g., he cannot make a “square circle” or cause 2+2 to equal 73), he can perform miracles.  He can turn water into wine; he can make five loaves of bread and two fish feed thousands of people.  Indeed, the very act of creating the universe — no matter when he did it — was a miracle.  Therefore, I conclude that God, being God, could have created the universe on October 23, 4004 BC and made it look billions of years old just as the YECs say, even if that is not what I personally believe.  

The YEC position cannot, therefore, be refuted as a logical impossibility.  Nor can it be refuted by appealing to the evidence.  “Wait just a cotton picking minute Barry!” you might say.  “In the first paragraph you told us you believe the ‘evidence’ leads to the conclusion that the universe is billions of years old.”  And so I did.  Here is where we must distinguish between the evidence, which is the same for everyone, and an interpretive framework for that evidence, which can vary.  By “interpretive framework” I mean the set of unprovable assumptions each of us brings to bear when we analyze the evidence.  For example, the vast majority of scientists assume that the speed of light has been constant since the beginning of the universe.  As we have seen, some YEC scientists believe that light has slowed down significantly since the creation event.  Obviously, conclusions about the age of the universe from the “light evidence” will vary enormously depending upon which group is correct.  

Very interestingly, despite the fact that most people believe that it is a scientifically proven “fact” that the speed of light has always been the same as it is now, it most certainly is not.  The current speed of light is an observable scientific fact.  We cannot, however, know with certainty what the speed of light was before observations of the speed of light were made.  This assertion is not in the least controversial.  Mainstream scientists admit that their assumptions about the fixed nature of the speed of light in the remote past are just that, assumptions.  In philosophical terms, mainstream scientists subscribe to “uniformitarianism,” the assumption that physical processes operated in the past in the same way they are observed to operate now.  YEC scientists by and large reject uniformitarianism.  Which group is correct is beside my point.  The point is that uniformitarianism is an assumption of most scientists.  It has not been, and indeed as a matter of strict logic cannot be, demonstrated by science.  In other words, the uniformitarian assumption is part of the interpretive framework mainstream scientists bring to bear on the evidence.  The uniformitarian assumption is not part of the evidence itself.

This brings me to the point of this post.  I don’t usually argue with YEC’s, because no matter how long and hard you argue with them, you will never convince them based on appeals to logic and evidence.  There is, almost literally, nothing you can say that might change their mind, so arguing with them is usually pointless.  Yes, the YEC proponent has the same evidence that you do, but he interprets that evidence within a different interpretive framework.  You might think his interpretive framework is flawed, but you cannot say, as a matter of strict logic, that his interpretive framework must be necessarily flawed.  In other words, you must admit that as a matter of strict logic it is possible, for instance, for light to be slower now than it was in the past.  And given the premise of some YECs that light is in fact slower now than it was in the past, their conclusions might then follow.  

Why do YECs reject uniformitarianism?  Because they are devoted to a particular interpretation of the Biblical creation account.  They believe the Bible says the universe was created in six days a few thousand years ago, and if they are going to believe the Bible is true they must therefore believe the universe was created in six days a few thousand years ago.  It does no good to appeal to logic or evidence.  As I have demonstrated above, a young universe is not a logical impossibility and no matter what evidence you adduce that, to you, indicates the universe is very old, the YEC will have an answer (e.g., “light has slowed down”). 

I was thinking about this yesterday when we were discussing the theistic evolutionists (TEs) over at BioLogos.  TEs are like YECs in this respect — they cling to a scientific view that runs counter to the obvious evidence because of their prior commitments.  

Let me explain what I mean.  Just as it is “obvious” that the universe appears to be several billion years old, it is “obvious” that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  That statement is not based on my religious beliefs; even the atheists believe that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  Arch-atheist Richard Dawkins famously said that “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”  Surely our friends at BioLogos will go as far as atheist Dawkins and admit that living things “appear” to have been designed for a purpose.  

Now notice the similarity between TEs and YECs:  Everyone concedes that the universe appears to be billions of years old; everyone concedes that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  YECs say the first appearance is an illusion.  TEs  say the second appearance is an illusion.  

We have already seen how YECs come to the conclusion that the apparent age of the universe is an illusion.  How do TEs come to the conclusion that the appearance of design in living things is an illusion?  The same way Richard Dawkins does, by appealing to the marvelous creative powers of Darwinian processes that, he says, are able to mimic design through strictly natural means.  Darwinists say, as they must, that the appearance of design that they admit exists is not real but an illusion.  Indeed, the whole purpose of the Darwinian theory of origins is to account for the appearance of design without having to resort to a designer. 

YECs reject the “obvious” conclusion about the age of the universe because of their prior commitments.  Why do TEs reject the “obvious” conclusion about the design of living things?  Further, why do TEs reject that obvious conclusion in the very teeth of the Biblical injunction to regard the appearance of design as proof of God’s existence (Romans 1).  

The answer has to do with what I call the “cool kids” impulse that all humans have to one extent or another.  When I was in school all of the “cool kids” sat at a particular table at lunch, and everyone wanted to be in that group.  I was not a cool kid, and I figured out pretty early that, for better or ill, the streak of stubborn individualism that runs to my very core would probably prevent me from ever being a cool kid.  I refused to conform and in order to be a cool kid you have to conform to the other cool kids.  Don’t get me wrong.  I very much wanted to be a cool kid.  Everyone wants to be a cool kid, and believe me, my life would have been so much easier if I had been a cool kid.  This is sociology 101.  But I was unwilling (perhaps even unable) to pay the price of admission to the cool kids club – i.e., conformity.

The cool kids impulse does not go away when we are adults, and in the academic community all of the cool kids sit at the Darwinian table.  TEs want to be cool kids; they want to be respectable and accepted in the academic community.  Sadly for them, the price the academic cool kids club extracts for admission is denial of the obvious appearance of design in living things and acceptance of the patent absurdity that the accretion of random errors sorted by a fitness function can account for the stupendously complex nano-machines we call cells.  

This is not, however, the end of the story for TEs.  They know that to deny design in the universe is to deny the designer of the universe, which is to deny God, and what is the point of being a TE if you reject the “T” part?  In order to maintain their membership in the cool kids club TEs slam the front door in God’s face when they deny the reality underlying the apparent design of living things that even atheists admit.  But they are perfectly willing to let God in the backdoor just so long as he stays out of sight and doesn’t get them kicked out of the club.  

As I discussed yesterday, I am thinking of TEs like Stephen Barr.  Dr. Barr is perfectly happy to accept the Darwinian account of evolution.  Darwinism says that mechanical necessity (i.e., natural selection) plus random chance (mutation, drift, etc.) are sufficient to account for the apparent design of living things.  It is, in StephenB’s words, a “design-free random process.”  In his “Miracle of Evolution,” Dr. Barr slams the front door shut on God when he accepts the Darwinian account.  Then he cracks the backdoor open ever so slightly to let God slip in when he asserts that what we perceive as a “design-free random process” is really, at a deeper level of existence, directed by God in a way that is empirically undetectable at this level of existence.

Barr is saying that in order to maintain his membership in the cool kids club he must affirm that evolution is purely random and design free.  How is his position different from the atheist position espoused by Richard Dawkins?  At the level of existence in which we examine empirical data, Barr’s position is identical to Dawkins’ position.  But, says Barr, when he uses the word “random,” he really means “apparently random but really directed.”  Apparently, Barr believes that, in Einstein’s famous phrase, God really does play dice with the universe.  But according to Barr, God, has loaded the dice so that they rolled “life,” however improbable that might have been (like a thousand 7′s in a row with real dice), and God’s dice loading is so clever that the “fix” can never be detected empirically. 

In this way Barr maintains membership in the academic cool kids club by espousing a Darwinian account of origins that is indistinguishable from the account of origins that atheists like Dawkins and Dennnett espouse.  Yet he keeps the “T” in his “TE” by saying that at a wholly different level of existence God fixed the game so that “random” is not really random but “directed.”  He wants to have it both ways. 

Here again, the TE position is exactly the same as the YEC position.  As we have already seen, you cannot push a YEC off his position by appealing to logic or evidence.  Nor can you push Dr. Barr off his position by appealing to logic and evidence.  We cannot rule Barr’s position out on strictly logical grounds.  God, being God, can certainly fix the dice in an empirically undetectable way if that is how he wants to accomplish his purposes.  Nor, by definition, can one rule Barr’s position out empirically short of finding the proverbial “made by YHWH” inscription on a cell.  

Finally, there is a certain irony in Barr’s position.  The atheist says living things appear to be designed but the appearance of design is an illusion explained by random Darwinian processes.  The TE says that living things appear to be designed but the appearance of design is an illusion explained by random Darwinian processes, BUT the randomness of Darwinian process is itself an illusion, because those processes are really directed by God to produce living things.  Thus, according to the TEs, the explanation of one illusion (the randomness of underlying Darwinism), which is an explanation of another illusion (the apparent design of living things) is, you guessed it, design.  Another way of putting it is the TE says design is an illusion explained by random process which are in turn an illusion explained by design.  As the comedian says, “That’s funny.  I don’t care who you are.”

Comments
StephenB 28 If uniformatarianism is false, as Barry pointed out, then the YEC position is a sensible solution. While some of the details of the YEC argument may change over time, the foundational principle does not change. Barry just happens to believe that uniformatarianism is true and he agrees that this is only an operating assumption. Well put. On the other hand, Barry’s YEC critics must acknowledge that their scientific methodology, like the TE methodology, begins with faith, not observation... Still, the fact remains that scientific methodology begins with an analysis of data, not a confession of faith. YECs would point out that 'faith' in the Word of God is more reasonable (and epistemologically solid) than faith in uniformitarianism. There can be no observations without an immense apparatus of preexisting theory. Before sense experiences become "observations" we need a theoretical question, and what counts as a relevant observation depends upon a theoretical frame into which it is to be placed. Repeatable observations that do not fit into an existing frame have a way of disappearing from view, and the experiments that produced them are not revisited. ~ Richard Lewontin People only see what they are prepared to see. ~ Ralph Waldo Emersonbevets
May 10, 2012
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I, too, am disappointed with the reaction of some (not all) YEC advocates. Personally, I have much sympathy for the YEC position because it is, in my opinion, grounded in an earnest search for truth. If uniformatarianism is false, as Barry pointed out, then the YEC position is a sensible solution. While some of the details of the YEC argument may change over time, the foundational principle does not change. Barry just happens to believe that uniformatarianism is true and he agrees that this is only an operating assumption. On the other hand, Barry's YEC critics must acknowledge that their scientific methodology, like the TE methodology, begins with faith, not observation. The difference is that YEC proponents begin their scientific investigation with unshakable faith in the Bible and the TEs begin their scientific investigation with unshakable faith in Darwin. Personally, I accept the Bible and reject Darwin, so my choice between those two options certainly goes with the YECs. Still, the fact remains that scientific methodology begins with an analysis of data, not a confession of faith. For my part, I think there is some chance that the YEC position could be the correct one, but I don't think it is the best bet. On the other hand, there is no chance at all that the TE position could be true as it is currently conceived. A purposeful, mindful God does not use a purposeless, mindless process to attain a purposeful end. There is no reason for anyone to open up their minds to that kind of nonsense. As Chesterton says, "the purpose of opening the mind is to close it on something solid--truth." That also means closing out error.StephenB
May 10, 2012
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Deuce @21, I am wondering if Barr doesn't flit back and forth from subjectivity to objectivity. When justifying his notion that God can "use contingency to create," for example, he seems to be writing in the objective mode. In his essay, "The Design of Evolution," he writes this: “,,,even the outcome of a purely contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God's providential plan." Isn't this basically the same as Collin's position: Evolution doesn't know where it is going (non-teleological Darwinism), but not to worry, because God knows where it will end--as if God's omniscience could compensate for what God's omniscience failed to provide, namely, an end-directed process.StephenB
May 10, 2012
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I am astounded at the intemperate tone of some of the responses from our YEC friends. Did you not read this sentence? “Therefore, I conclude that God, being God, could have created the universe on October 23, 4004 BC and made it look billions of years old just as the YECs say, even if that is not what I personally believe.” I tried very hard to be respectful while disagreeing. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. An “if you disagree with me about anything you must be wrong about everything” attitude seems to go hand in glove with the fundamentalist mindset. Nevertheless, the uncharitable tone of some of the responses is disappointing.Barry Arrington
May 10, 2012
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This is as cogent a post as I've read in a long time, Barry. Well done! My problem with the YEC position is two-fold: 1) The particular (one might say idiosyncratic) exegesis of Genesis to which YECs are committed is by no means demanded to retain orthodoxy, and a number of important church fathers have refused such a hyperlexic reading of the text; and 2) if so many features of nature are indeed illusory, where do we draw the epistemological line? I hold no ill will for YECs, but some seem to use the age of the earth as a line-in-the-sand issue and a litmus test for fellowsip. That is unfortunate.Flannery
May 10, 2012
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For example, some YECs hold that just as God created Adam with apparent age (i.e, he started out as an adult; he was never an infant, a toddler, or a teenager), God also created the universe with apparent age. This means that the light we see from those distant objects was not emitted billions of years ago. Instead, God created that light “in route.” Other YECs assert that the speed of light need not have been constant, and if light traveled in the past many times faster than it does now, our deductions about the age of the universe based on an assumption that the speed of light has always been the same would be wrong.
I would have to agree with butifnot and tjguy. Your description of YEC is horribly out-of-date. I suppose you still think YECs accept the vapor canopy theory of the Flood as well?
TEs are like YECs in this respect — they cling to a scientific view that runs counter to the obvious evidence because of their prior commitments.
Are you claiming not to have any prior commitments Barry?tragic mishap
May 10, 2012
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Barry, I think you gave a reasonably balanced presentation of YEC, however I would suggest two minor points. 1) "Illusion" of age reveals bias 2) You did not mention Russell Humphreys Gravitational Time Dilation. (I also suspect there are a few unknown unknowns)bevets
May 10, 2012
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Barry, You make a good point about the disadvantage we humans are all at when it comes to doing historical science. I am a YEC and I thought your comparison between YECs and TEs is probably fairly accurate. In fact, YECers have been making this point for a long time! No one observed what happened in the past. We can see the results, but not the actual event. We can't do experiments to repeat it, test it, or verify it. We all have the same evidence and interpret it based on our worldview or through our own interpretive framework. This is why there are so many just so stories in evolution. We can't prove them wrong and they can't prove them right. This is not really science at all, but they want us to believe it is science. Knowing the difference between real science and historical science is of utmost importance for all of us because evolutionists so often use the word "science" dishonestly. They refer to regular operational science that uses the scientific method and can be observed in real time as being trustworthy(which we all agree with) and then ridicule us creationists for being anti-science because we question evolution. But the catch is, evolution is historical science, not regular or operational science. One is quite trustworthy and the other is supported with lots of assumptions and just so stories. But Barry, I guess I would have preferred you use a different YEC argument on distant starlight as very few believe YEC groups propose that type of solution anymore, but this was an idea put forth by some in the past. I'll agree though that it makes for an easy to understand illustration. The appearance of age idea is also not really held by many reputable creationist organizations, although it probably is more popular on the lay level. But yes, we take God's Word as truth and interpret nature through the lens of God's Word. We view His Word as an eyewitness account. We can't see what happened, but we have the eyewitness account of someone who did. Plus, a young earth was the overwhelming interpretation of the Jews themselves and of the early church, all the way up until Lyell et al began spreading their ideas of uniformitarianism, which is now known to be false. Lyell's ideas have had to be modified since his time. We believe the literal approach to Scripture is the interpretation that is most faithful to the text. It makes the most sense of Scripture. Jesus himself seems to have believed in a young earth because He says that God created them male and female at the "beginning of creation". Plus, belief in an old earth virtually requires you to reject a worldwide flood in favor of a local flood. But this requires unbelievable mental gymnastics to interpret the flood as a local flood and again is a modern reinterpretation of the text seemingly done simply to fit better with evolutionary science. When you start playing so loosely with the text, after a while, you wonder which texts are trustworthy and which are not. To an unbiased person, it would seem like Christians are just trying to save their religion from falsification and the obvious conclusions of "science" just like evolutionists keep modifying their views to account for new evidence. I think it needs to be pointed out that although there is evidence for an old universe, there is also scientific evidence that points to a young earth/universe as well. Anyway, we YECers feel that, just as archeologists go to the Bible for helpful hints, scientists should also go to the Bible for helpful hints as to how to interpret the evidence. For instance, how do you interpret the geological column? Was if formed through slow and gradual processes throughout billions of years of history, or was it formed through the global flood like the Bible teaches? No one saw it being formed and the processes we see at work in the world now are not necessarily the same processes that formed the rocks in the beginning. This is simply an assumption of uniformitarianism. Knowing that a worldwide flood occurred, would make a huge difference in how we interpret the rock record and fossil record! Also, knowing how languages came into being gives us important knowledge that we can use as we study the origin of languages. And so forth. So we YECs believe we should take God at His word when He clearly tells us that He created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th as a pattern for our week. Rejecting that knowledge will necessarily result in wrong conclusions and interpretations of the evidence which is the same for everyone. Someone told me that if that view is right, then God is guilty of deceiving us. My answer to that is "You only feel that way because you have chosen to believe the clear testimony of His Word." If He told us how He did it, then how can that be purposeful deception? This worldview problem, interpretive framework problem is a problem that all scientists have. Even IDers have their own interpretive framework through which they view and interpret the evidence. For instance, Hugh Ross's interpretive framework is that nature is the 67th book of the Bible and this allows him to use science to reinterpret the plain meaning of the Bible and still feel like he is remaining true to God's Word. Thank you for making this point on the board, Barry!tjguy
May 10, 2012
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Thus, according to the TEs, the explanation of the illusion of the explanation of the illusion of design is, you guessed it, design. Of course, if it's an illusion that design is an illusion, then design isn't an illusion after all, so the above statement simply reduces to "design is not an illusion." Btw, I don't think that all TEs think that randomness is an illusion. Most, unfortunately, don't. Barr, to his credit, really means it when he says that it's directed by God. To be fair to Barr, I *don't* think he shuts the door in God's face as you said. In fact, he takes the opposite track from most TEs. He actually shuts the door in Darwin's face without realizing it. Most TEs employ theological, teleological language while draining it of its meaning and replacing it with anti-teleological concepts. Barr, on the other hand, does the opposite: he empties non-teleological words like "random" of their meaning and replaces them with teleological concepts. The crucial difference is, other TEs don't really mean it when they say that God used evolution to create man, whereas Barr does. By redefining random to mean "only subjectively random but objectively directed", he pulls the carpet out from under the entire logic of the Darwinian argument that is supposed to explain the appearance of design without a designer. He's using the word "Darwinism" but he means something else by it than actual Darwinists do (whereas other TEs mean something else by "freedom", "created", "providence", etc than Christian theists do). I'm not sure why he does it. Quite a lot of TEs are clearly driven by the "cool club", but I'm not so sure that Barr is one of them. I don't think he quite understands that, as you said, "the whole purpose of the Darwinian theory of origins is to account for the appearance of design without having to resort to a designer." He keeps insisting that in science, "random" only refers to our subjective inability to see a correlation, which suggests to me that he doesn't quite understand the logic of the Darwinian argument, the way it employs the concept of randomness, and why it employs it that way. Or, possibly, he may want to remove stumbling blocks to Christianity from people who would balk at rejecting "Darwin's theory." Quite a lot of people see "Darwin" as a fuzzy term that is interchangeable with "evolution" and "common descent" and don't really get what Darwin was trying to achieve and what his argument was regarding design and intentionality. That was definitely me for a good long while. They may balk if they think they have to "reject science" to be Christians, and Barr may just find it easier to present a defanged, defined-down "Darwinism" rather get into the philosophical weeds of explaining just what Darwin's theory means, what it's philosophical argument is that must be rejected, etc. As for the idea that design is not empirically detectable, I'm not sure that accurately describes what Barr thinks, though again it certainly describes the majority of TEs that define theism down. From what I've read of his, Barr appears to be a Thomist, which would mean that he thinks living things have intrinsic, irreducible telos that can't be reduced to mechanistic causes, and that we can learn this by observing them and grasping their form. But the fact that something can be grasped via empirical observation doesn't necessarily mean that it's quantifiable for scientific purposes. Consider the case when you learn to speak in a new language. You see and hear new words, and you figure out their meanings through experience. But it's impossible to examine the meanings of words with science, because meaning is not physical, measurable, or quantifiable. The same goes for the contents of our thoughts, for qualia, etc. We experience these things, and we know they exist, but they aren't open to scientific examination. It's possible to hold the same for the telos of living things I think: that it's something we can learn by observing them, but that it's not open to quantification by the tools of modern, mechanistic science. In summary, I think that Barr is guilty only of abusing the language a bit, and I doubt it's intentional. I don't think he has made a mockery of Christian theology like most TEs have.Deuce
May 10, 2012
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It´s a scientific fact that the speed of light is decreasing ever since it´s known how to measure it, and the magnetic field is decreasing (and even if it´s possible that a reversal compensate the measures, it exists entropy) . And many more scientific facts are matching with a young earth. Everything is a fact even for doubters in Genesis, 1 like me.creatoblepas
May 10, 2012
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this yEC says its fair to press the light issue about time and fair for us to see it created instantly as God doesn't need time. he's not controlled by his own mechanisms surely. i have no interest in cosmology stuff and since we already see the sun/moon created in a day we see no problem with anything else in the universe. If you were God what would you do if on a time schedule.? then also this light thing could be more complicated then realized even in present mechanisms. Some details might not be figured out. The thread was gracious to YEC folks as I witness.Robert Byers
May 9, 2012
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@ Barry and [8] Very persuasive. Maybe I'll rethink my policy. Following your example, maybe I should allow the term, "useful IDiots," as an intelligently designed variant of the historically significant term, "useful idiots." Good night, Barry. Make sure you always type that final letter to your name. Don't want to be taken for a useful idiot.Ted Davis
May 9, 2012
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--Ted: "If that’s really his motivation for holding the specific views you mention here, then why in the world would he set himself apart from the genuine atheists by writing a book like “Modern Physics and Ancient Faith?” There once was a little boy who studied hard at the Darwinist Academy. On his graduation, he said to his teachers, "I must confess, I no longer believe in materialist monism, but I still think Darwin got it right." His teachers, somewhat disappointed, patted him on the head and lowered his grade from A to A- There was a second little boy who studied hard at the Darwinist Academy. On his graduation, he said to his teachers, "I am now persuaded that the universe if finely tuned and I have come to accept the first cause argument. Still, I think Darwin got it right. His teachers, partly amused and partly irked, lowered his grade from A to B+ There was a third little boy who studied hard at the Darwinist Academy. On his graduation, he said to his teachers, "I have remained faithful to everything you have taught me except for one thing: I think Darwin may have been wrong. His teachers burned all his records, expelled him from school, and had him brought up on charges of treason.StephenB
May 9, 2012
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Thx StephenBarry Arrington
May 9, 2012
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Barry, you have written an eminently "cool" post. It was a joy to read from start to finish. The extent to which the TE's will go to link a purposeful, mindful God with a purposeless, mindless process is truly remarkable.StephenB
May 9, 2012
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Mr. Arrington makes a good point here when he states, "Here is where we must distinguish between the evidence, which is the same for everyone, and an interpretive framework for that evidence, which can vary. By “interpretive framework” I mean the set of unprovable assumptions each of us brings to bear when we analyze the evidence." Whenever I've examined debates about ID or evolution, I've noticed that it's not the evidence that's being questioned, but rather the interpretation of the evidence. Interpretations aren't always based on logic, facts, or evidence.Barb
May 9, 2012
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I'm a six day creationist, and am agnostic about earth/universe age for pragmatic reasons, but very sympathetic to a young earth. I read Genesis 1-11 about as literally as anyone I've encountered. I took no particular offense at the OP.material.infantacy
May 9, 2012
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Really the point is everyone operates from a framework- period. Everyone interprets evidence from their framework. The question is who's is the most consistent. Barry your very incomplete and outdated about YEC evidence and 'interpretations' - multitudes of evidence consistent with short timespans, contradictory to long ages, and serious fundamental flaws in a cosmology full of 'epicycles'. And in seriousness it was a little condescending.butifnot
May 9, 2012
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Well, I'm proud to be a YEC and while I respect Mr Arrington's ability to believe as he chooses, I don't appreciate the condescending and, dare I say insulting nature of his post. I believe God IS truth, so if it were ever shown the universe is billions of years, I would have no problem accepting that. I would also have no problem accepting evolution because my faith in GOD is not dependent on whether it's true or not. In fact, the age of the universe does not hold much importance for me overall. If it's 20 billion years of age - fine, if it's approx 6000 - fine. At this time, I see no conclusive evidence to change my beliefs about it and could argue there's evidence for it being young. There's so much more to be discovered about the universe that I'm actually quite surprised Mr Arrington would assume a young universe is illogical while an older one, is. It reminds me of how darwinists like to jump the gun and proclaim something as true (junk dna) only to learn later that that alleged 'junk' serves an important purpose.Blue_Savannah
May 9, 2012
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Bruce, you put your finger exactly on the problem, nay tragedy, of the TE position.Barry Arrington
May 9, 2012
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butifnot, I am surprised that you characterize my discussion of YECs as somewhat malicious and a caricature. It was not meant to be.Barry Arrington
May 9, 2012
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@ Ted and [5] “IDiot” is nothing but a malicious slur. “Useful idiot” is a historical term that is exactly descriptive of the concept I am aiming to express. So I will decline your invitation.Barry Arrington
May 9, 2012
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There is a difference between the YEC and TE positions as described in the OP: The YEC position is a metaphysical stance that allows all the actual evidence to be explained in a way that is not logically contradictory. The TE position, however, ignores the abundant and overwhelming evidence against the Darwinian explanation. I am referring of course to the astronomically improbable amounts of CFSI in living things, the irreducible complexity of myriad biological structures and processes, J. Sanford's concept of genetic entropy, etc.Bruce David
May 9, 2012
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The TE says that living things appear to be designed but the appearance of design is an illusion explained by random Darwinian processes, BUT the randomness of Darwinian process is itself an illusion, because those processes are really directed by God to produce living things. Thus, according to the TEs, the explanation of the illusion of the explanation of the illusion of design is, you guessed it, design.
So, isn't that tantamount to the TE saying design is NOT an illusion? CheersCLAVDIVS
May 9, 2012
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Well, Barry, in my columns for BioLogos (a new venture for me), I've banned the term "IDiot," b/c it's simply nasty name calling that reflects poorly on those who use it: they're usually just grasping at straws, and it doesn't help their credibility one bit. As you probably know, my action was greeted with applause here at UD. (https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/new-biologos-series-vows-to-get-rid-of-nasty-name-callingagainst-id/) Let me suggest that you ban the term, "useful idiot," in your columns here. Same reasons as above.Ted Davis
May 9, 2012
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And evolutionists of all persuasions have a greater a-priori commitment to an age of the universe. Any contradictory or inconsistent evidence will be explained away. Of which there is an enormous amount. The parallels to evolution are striking. 'These galaxies are not moving the way our theory says they should' - there must be some un-predicted (soon to be a knew it all along ) matter that keeps our (religion) theory intact (dark matter). How can there be methane left on this moon when we know it's 4 bya - magic methane source I meticulously logged contradictory red shift data, literally disproving red shift=distance - NO MORE TELESCOPE TIME FOR YOU etc etc etc etcbutifnot
May 9, 2012
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Ted Davis, Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented. ~ William Provine Can there be any doubt that Provine is correct, that the rise of atheism and the advent of Darwinian evolution are not merely correlated but causally related? In case you are wondering, that is a rhetorical question. Stephen Barr (paraphrase of course): “I’m OK with Darwinian evolution.” The communists had a term for people like Barr: “useful idiot.” See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot The fact that Barr has written apologetic works in other fields makes the damage he does worse, not better. And yes, I really do believe that people like Barr crave academic respectability above all things. And yes, I really do believe that the influence of Barr and people like him at First Things has transformed that once great journal into a collection of boring, not-worth-reading drivel. That is why, after being a subscriber almost from the beginning more than 20 years ago, I am letting my subscription lapse.Barry Arrington
May 9, 2012
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As when mankind first peered into and beheld the living cell in detail, darwinism should have ended and a sea-change swept over science, so too when the heavens were revealed in all spectrums. This is relevant to all cosmology and it's implications. Much is incorrect and of course much is unknown. Many YEC's came to that position *because* of the 'evidence' in much the same way that ID'ers came to that position. I'm saying your somewhat (not too malicious) charicature of YEC's is inaccurate.butifnot
May 9, 2012
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This is pretty low, Barry. Steve Barr just wants to be "cool"? This is like the old, tired claim that TEs are spineless jellyfish who never engage Dawkins and company--a ridiculous charge that I've refuted here several times. Give Barr the right to come to his conclusions on the same basis that you do: he looks at the evidence, thinks about it, and decides what makes the most sense. Do you like to attack Barr just to look "cool" in front of StephenB, Denyse, and other Catholic culture warriors who no longer like "First Things" b/c they give Steve a prominent role? If that's really his motivation for holding the specific views you mention here, then why in the world would he set himself apart from the genuine atheists by writing a book like "Modern Physics and Ancient Faith?" How exactly does a book like that make him look "cool"? Stephen Weldon, the non-theist who reviewed Barr's book for "Isis," the leading American journal in my field (History of Science), said this (his review is the one that is usually quoted all over the internet): Barr's book is "an extended attack on what he calls scientific materialism. ... Religion and science are not really in conflict, Barr claims; they only appear to be so because many people have conflated science with philosophical materialism. His overarching historical framework is the view that developments in the physical sciences in the twentieth century have demonstrated principles that have made science more, rather than less, compatible with theistic ideas." (Isis, Dec 2004, p. 742) I must say, Barry, this is not how one becomes "cool" in academic circles. Have you ever read Barr's book? Your objections apparently are to his article on the miracle of evolution, and not to his book. If so, why not stick with that and leave his alleged motives out of this? Or, if you want to speculate about his motives, why not just follow the evidence wherever it leads and give him credit for having the courage of his convictions, despite this difference of opinion?Ted Davis
May 9, 2012
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