Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

TEs Must Say the Explanation of an Illusion is Itself an Illusion as the Price of Admission to the “Cool Kids” Club

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Editors:  This was originally posted under a different title in May 2012.  We were inspired to repost it by Dr. Sewell’s post here

Bishop Ussher famously calculated that the universe was created on October 23, 4004 BC.  I do not hold this or any other young earth creationist (YEC) position.  The evidence that the universe is several billion years old seems fairly compelling to me.  In particular, certain celestial objects (stars, galaxies, supernovas, etc.) are billions of light years away.  From this fact I deduce that the light we see from these objects has been traveling billions of years to get to us, which leads to the conclusion that the objects emitted the light billions of years ago, which in turn means the objects are billions of years old.  This chain of inferences obviously leaves no room for an age of the universe measured in only thousands of years.

YEC proponents have the same evidence as the rest of us, and they admit the universe appears to be billions of years old.  Nevertheless, they persist in their YEC beliefs.  How can they do this?  There is an enormous body of literature on the subject that cannot be summarized adequately in the confines of a blog post, but the short answer is YECs have erected a series of plausible (to them) explanations for the apparent age of the universe.  For example, some YECs hold that just as God created Adam with apparent age (i.e, he started out as an adult; he was never an infant, a toddler, or a teenager), God also created the universe with apparent age.  This means that the light we see from those distant objects was not emitted billions of years ago.  Instead, God created that light “in route.”  Other YECs assert that the speed of light need not have been constant, and if light traveled in the past many times faster than it does now, our deductions about the age of the universe based on an assumption that the speed of light has always been the same would be wrong.

I do not reject YEC reasoning such as this as a logical impossibility.  By this I mean that while God cannot do logically impossible things (e.g., he cannot make a “square circle” or cause 2+2 to equal 73), he can perform miracles.  He can turn water into wine; he can make five loaves of bread and two fish feed thousands of people.  Indeed, the very act of creating the universe — no matter when he did it — was a miracle.  Therefore, I conclude that God, being God, could have created the universe on October 23, 4004 BC and made it look billions of years old just as the YECs say, even if that is not what I personally believe.  

The YEC position cannot, therefore, be refuted as a logical impossibility.  Nor can it be refuted by appealing to the evidence.  “Wait just a cotton picking minute Barry!” you might say.  “In the first paragraph you told us you believe the ‘evidence’ leads to the conclusion that the universe is billions of years old.”  And so I did.  Here is where we must distinguish between the evidence, which is the same for everyone, and an interpretive framework for that evidence, which can vary.  By “interpretive framework” I mean the set of unprovable assumptions each of us brings to bear when we analyze the evidence.  For example, the vast majority of scientists assume that the speed of light has been constant since the beginning of the universe.  As we have seen, some YEC scientists believe that light has slowed down significantly since the creation event.  Obviously, conclusions about the age of the universe from the “light evidence” will vary enormously depending upon which group is correct.  

Very interestingly, despite the fact that most people believe that it is a scientifically proven “fact” that the speed of light has always been the same as it is now, it most certainly is not.  The current speed of light is an observable scientific fact.  We cannot, however, know with certainty what the speed of light was before observations of the speed of light were made.  This assertion is not in the least controversial.  Mainstream scientists admit that their assumptions about the fixed nature of the speed of light in the remote past are just that, assumptions.  In philosophical terms, mainstream scientists subscribe to “uniformitarianism,” the assumption that physical processes operated in the past in the same way they are observed to operate now.  YEC scientists by and large reject uniformitarianism.  Which group is correct is beside my point.  The point is that uniformitarianism is an assumption of most scientists.  It has not been, and indeed as a matter of strict logic cannot be, demonstrated by science.  In other words, the uniformitarian assumption is part of the interpretive framework mainstream scientists bring to bear on the evidence.  The uniformitarian assumption is not part of the evidence itself.

This brings me to the point of this post.  I don’t usually argue with YEC’s, because no matter how long and hard you argue with them, you will never convince them based on appeals to logic and evidence.  There is, almost literally, nothing you can say that might change their mind, so arguing with them is usually pointless.  Yes, the YEC proponent has the same evidence that you do, but he interprets that evidence within a different interpretive framework.  You might think his interpretive framework is flawed, but you cannot say, as a matter of strict logic, that his interpretive framework must be necessarily flawed.  In other words, you must admit that as a matter of strict logic it is possible, for instance, for light to be slower now than it was in the past.  And given the premise of some YECs that light is in fact slower now than it was in the past, their conclusions might then follow.  

Why do YECs reject uniformitarianism?  Because they are devoted to a particular interpretation of the Biblical creation account.  They believe the Bible says the universe was created in six days a few thousand years ago, and if they are going to believe the Bible is true they must therefore believe the universe was created in six days a few thousand years ago.  It does no good to appeal to logic or evidence.  As I have demonstrated above, a young universe is not a logical impossibility and no matter what evidence you adduce that, to you, indicates the universe is very old, the YEC will have an answer (e.g., “light has slowed down”). 

I was thinking about this yesterday when we were discussing the theistic evolutionists (TEs) over at BioLogos.  TEs are like YECs in this respect — they cling to a scientific view that runs counter to the obvious evidence because of their prior commitments.  

Let me explain what I mean.  Just as it is “obvious” that the universe appears to be several billion years old, it is “obvious” that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  That statement is not based on my religious beliefs; even the atheists believe that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  Arch-atheist Richard Dawkins famously said that “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”  Surely our friends at BioLogos will go as far as atheist Dawkins and admit that living things “appear” to have been designed for a purpose.  

Now notice the similarity between TEs and YECs:  Everyone concedes that the universe appears to be billions of years old; everyone concedes that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  YECs say the first appearance is an illusion.  TEs  say the second appearance is an illusion.  

We have already seen how YECs come to the conclusion that the apparent age of the universe is an illusion.  How do TEs come to the conclusion that the appearance of design in living things is an illusion?  The same way Richard Dawkins does, by appealing to the marvelous creative powers of Darwinian processes that, he says, are able to mimic design through strictly natural means.  Darwinists say, as they must, that the appearance of design that they admit exists is not real but an illusion.  Indeed, the whole purpose of the Darwinian theory of origins is to account for the appearance of design without having to resort to a designer. 

YECs reject the “obvious” conclusion about the age of the universe because of their prior commitments.  Why do TEs reject the “obvious” conclusion about the design of living things?  Further, why do TEs reject that obvious conclusion in the very teeth of the Biblical injunction to regard the appearance of design as proof of God’s existence (Romans 1).  

The answer has to do with what I call the “cool kids” impulse that all humans have to one extent or another.  When I was in school all of the “cool kids” sat at a particular table at lunch, and everyone wanted to be in that group.  I was not a cool kid, and I figured out pretty early that, for better or ill, the streak of stubborn individualism that runs to my very core would probably prevent me from ever being a cool kid.  I refused to conform and in order to be a cool kid you have to conform to the other cool kids.  Don’t get me wrong.  I very much wanted to be a cool kid.  Everyone wants to be a cool kid, and believe me, my life would have been so much easier if I had been a cool kid.  This is sociology 101.  But I was unwilling (perhaps even unable) to pay the price of admission to the cool kids club – i.e., conformity.

The cool kids impulse does not go away when we are adults, and in the academic community all of the cool kids sit at the Darwinian table.  TEs want to be cool kids; they want to be respectable and accepted in the academic community.  Sadly for them, the price the academic cool kids club extracts for admission is denial of the obvious appearance of design in living things and acceptance of the patent absurdity that the accretion of random errors sorted by a fitness function can account for the stupendously complex nano-machines we call cells.  

This is not, however, the end of the story for TEs.  They know that to deny design in the universe is to deny the designer of the universe, which is to deny God, and what is the point of being a TE if you reject the “T” part?  In order to maintain their membership in the cool kids club TEs slam the front door in God’s face when they deny the reality underlying the apparent design of living things that even atheists admit.  But they are perfectly willing to let God in the backdoor just so long as he stays out of sight and doesn’t get them kicked out of the club.  

As I discussed yesterday, I am thinking of TEs like Stephen Barr.  Dr. Barr is perfectly happy to accept the Darwinian account of evolution.  Darwinism says that mechanical necessity (i.e., natural selection) plus random chance (mutation, drift, etc.) are sufficient to account for the apparent design of living things.  It is, in StephenB’s words, a “design-free random process.”  In his “Miracle of Evolution,” Dr. Barr slams the front door shut on God when he accepts the Darwinian account.  Then he cracks the backdoor open ever so slightly to let God slip in when he asserts that what we perceive as a “design-free random process” is really, at a deeper level of existence, directed by God in a way that is empirically undetectable at this level of existence.

Barr is saying that in order to maintain his membership in the cool kids club he must affirm that evolution is purely random and design free.  How is his position different from the atheist position espoused by Richard Dawkins?  At the level of existence in which we examine empirical data, Barr’s position is identical to Dawkins’ position.  But, says Barr, when he uses the word “random,” he really means “apparently random but really directed.”  Apparently, Barr believes that, in Einstein’s famous phrase, God really does play dice with the universe.  But according to Barr, God, has loaded the dice so that they rolled “life,” however improbable that might have been (like a thousand 7′s in a row with real dice), and God’s dice loading is so clever that the “fix” can never be detected empirically. 

In this way Barr maintains membership in the academic cool kids club by espousing a Darwinian account of origins that is indistinguishable from the account of origins that atheists like Dawkins and Dennnett espouse.  Yet he keeps the “T” in his “TE” by saying that at a wholly different level of existence God fixed the game so that “random” is not really random but “directed.”  He wants to have it both ways. 

Here again, the TE position is exactly the same as the YEC position.  As we have already seen, you cannot push a YEC off his position by appealing to logic or evidence.  Nor can you push Dr. Barr off his position by appealing to logic and evidence.  We cannot rule Barr’s position out on strictly logical grounds.  God, being God, can certainly fix the dice in an empirically undetectable way if that is how he wants to accomplish his purposes.  Nor, by definition, can one rule Barr’s position out empirically short of finding the proverbial “made by YHWH” inscription on a cell.  

Finally, there is a certain irony in Barr’s position.  The atheist says living things appear to be designed but the appearance of design is an illusion explained by random Darwinian processes.  The TE says that living things appear to be designed but the appearance of design is an illusion explained by random Darwinian processes, BUT the randomness of Darwinian process is itself an illusion, because those processes are really directed by God to produce living things.  Thus, according to the TEs, the explanation of one illusion (the randomness of underlying Darwinism), which is an explanation of another illusion (the apparent design of living things) is, you guessed it, design.  Another way of putting it is the TE says design is an illusion explained by random process which are in turn an illusion explained by design.  As the comedian says, “That’s funny.  I don’t care who you are.”

Comments
Flannery @54
Irrespective of what you may think of Ross’s analysis, why don’t you acknowledge that “Truth” as you draw it from divine revelation found in Scripture is simply one possible interpretation of the evidence from Genesis?
I do acknowledge that. What's being asserted in this thread is that YECs are qualitatively different than the cool kids who believe the earth is old. I'm only arguing that we are doing the same exact thing you are.tragic mishap
May 11, 2012
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Stephen @
You say that science is not inerrant and may produce error. Granted. Still, science sometimes gets it right (or comes close) and when it does, it will harmonize with Scripture properly interpreted, that is, Scripture understood as a faithful interpretation of what the author meant to convey.
So basically you're agreeing with creationists. You understand why creationists would have problems with different portions of science than you do because of their different interpretation of Scripture. So why do you pretend creationists are different qualitatively? Apparently you believe that your interpretation of Scripture is demonstrably correct. This ought to be fun. All we have to do is play for a draw and we win. Bad move Stephen.tragic mishap
May 11, 2012
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Stephen @48
I argued that scientific epistemology begins with assumptions, but that scientific methodology does not–and I explained why that is the case. If, as you say, scientific mmethodology depends on and begins with assumptions, how does one avoid circular reasoning and how is a scientific inference possible?
I don't think you understood what I was saying. I was not saying "scientific methodologies," if I have understood you correctly here, require assumptions. I was saying that our scientific epistemology directs when, where and to what problems we apply our scientific methodologies. Thus for creationists the "obvious" interpretation of some scientific evidence is a problem, so we apply various methodologies to try and solve it. For others it is not a problem, so they apply the same methodologies, broadly speaking, elsewhere. None of this means creationists are not doing the same exact thing as any other scientists are. We are not using different methodologies and we don't deny the validity of scientific methodology within the realm of science. Creationists wouldn't be working on the problem of the age of the earth if they didn't believe there was a problem for them in that area.tragic mishap
May 11, 2012
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StephenB The “literal” interpretation, which is the correct approach, tries to extract the meaning the author meant to convey when he wrote the passage. It also takes into account the genre of expression, the historical context, and other important factors that will help in that analysis. The “literalist” interpretation, which is sometimes (not always) misleading, simply analyzes the words without regard for context, metaphors, or other literary devices. Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience; ... Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know. ~ James Barr Regius Professor of Hebrew at Christ Church, Oxford 1978-1989 So far as the days of Genesis 1 are concerned, I am sure that Professor Barr was correct... I have not met any Hebrew professors who had the slightest doubt about this. ~ Hugh Williamson Regius Professor of Hebrew at Christ Church, Oxford 1992-Presentbevets
May 11, 2012
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For StephenB: Thanks for your response. I'd like to interact with what you said a bit.
The “literal” interpretation, which is the correct approach, tries to extract the meaning the author meant to convey when he wrote the passage. It also takes into account the genre of expression, the historical context, and other important factors that will help in that analysis. The “literalist” interpretation, which is sometimes (not always) misleading, simply analyzes the words without regard for context, metaphors, or other literary devices.
I completely agree with you. Unless you are insinuating that YECers follow what you call the literalist method of interpretation. I think all YECs would agree with what you wrote and would believe that they are following the literal approach. We know that Genesis is not a book of poetry or prophecy. The writing style is that of history and the other authors and characters of the Bible take it as history. Genesis is the foundation of the Bible and is quoted more than any other book of the Bible. The use of the waw consecutive in Hebrews supports this conclusion as well. You didn’t respond to either of my examples as to how Genesis can help us in doing science. I believe that the Bible is clear on the fact that the Garden of Eden was a perfect place. It is clear on the fact that Adam and Eve were literal historical figures. It is clear on the fact that the earth was cursed as a result of sin. It is clear on the fact that the stars, sun, and moon were not made until day 4. It is clear on the fact that Adam was created first directly from the dust of the ground and then later that day, Eve was created from one of his bones. It is clear on the fact of a worldwide flood. Using the interpreting principles you mentioned above – trying to extract the meaning of the author as opposed to reading into it what we want to see, then all of these things I just mentioned would certainly be the most common interpretation of the texts. And, these truths seem consistently clear throughout the Bible. Wouldn't you agree? Or do you feel the proper interpretation of the Bible is different than what I wrote? Assuming you agree, how might they affect us when we do science? Since no one was there to see the original creation, we do not know how it was created, but here we have the Creator’s testimony as to how it was created. The sun, moon and stars were not created until day 4. So, wouldn’t that affect the way we do cosmology? Or, should we start with the conclusions of modern cosmology that seeks to find a totally natural explanation for the origin of the universe and has come up with an old universe? In their scenario, our earth cannot possibly have been created before the sun and stars. None of us was around in history to witness a worldwide flood, but the Bible is clear on this – so this is a hugely important fact for geologists to consider when interpreting the rock record. Wouldn't this affect the way we do geologoy? Or, do we start with what science which means we start with uniformitarian assumptions, deny a worldwide flood, and find a way to read a local flood into the text in spite of the clear meaning of the text? What do you think the author of Genesis was trying to communicate to us when he wrote Genesis 6-9? Do you honestly think he meant that there was a local flood? I’d love to hear how you approach these chapters? In Genesis 1, we are told over and over again that there was morning, evening, and then given the day and it’s number. Wherever we find the word day used in Scripture in conjunction with a number, it always refers to a 24 hour period. There is one questionable use of day in a prophetic book, but that is not history. The use of the waw consecutive in Genesis one makes it plain that this was history and not poetry. Knowing about the result of the curse helps us better understand the Creator and avoid jumping to wrong conclusions about God – ie that He is a bad designer, that He is responsible for the suffering and disease in the world. We might jump to the conclusion as many atheists do that God is cruel because of the method He used to create the world. We might think He is not so smart because of certain things that do not work so well in the world today – or examples of bad design. Nature can tell us of God's existence, His greatness, power, creativity, and wisdom, but that's about it. Plus, we have to remember too that nature has been cursed as a result of sin. There were some big changes that took place at the curse. We don't know exactly what they were, but these changes could give us an inaccurate view of God and could even possibly affect our science. That is why the Bible is superior to science. For instance, if animals were vegetarians up until that time, that would affect how we view the fossil record. If there was no death in God's world up until that time, that would affect the way we look at the fossil record. Even if you claim there was animal death before that time, it is clear that physical death for humans was not a part of God's original creation. That would affect how we look at the fossil record, would it not? These are truths that science could not know and is not allowed to consider when investigation origins and coming up with theories. So nature itself is not an accurate teacher about God. If we looked at only nature to understand God, we might think God didn’t communicate His truth to us very accurately. We might think He mislead mankind for thousands of years until Charles Lyell, who wanted to free science from Moses, came along. And now thanks to his work, we now have the knowledge we need to correctly interpret Scripture and reject the YEC position as well as a worldwide flood. When Jesus says that God created them “male and female from the beginning of creation” in Mark 10:6, what do you think that means? Do we take Him at his word or do we go with the OEC position that puts man’s creation after 99.9% of the history of the universe took place. How do you approach such a passage from an OEC perspective?
When, for example, Jesus, who is also God, said that the Father “makes the sun rise,” He was not unaware that the earth revolves around the sun, rather he was using phenomenological language to make a point about God’s power with his uneducated listeners. When He says, “If any man thirsts,” He is speaking figuratively about spiritual deprivation, not an absence of water. On the other hand, when He speaks of “eternal life,” He means that literally. Still, when He tells us to forgive those who offend us seven times seventy seven, he doesn’t mean that we should quit on the fiftieth time–he means that we should keep on forgiving indefinitely. Can you imagine what a “literalist” would do with many of these passages.
Again, I am in complete agreement with you here. I have a question for you though. Do you think YECs do this with Scripture? Do you know any YECs who make the mistakes you are referring to above? I don't, but perhaps you do. I went to a YEC Bible school and was taught the exact same things you are saying here.
Yes, Scripture is a higher order of knowledge than science, but it can illuminate science only if the standards for sound interpretation are utilized. You say that science is not inerrant and may produce error. Granted. Still, science sometimes gets it right (or comes close) and when it does, it will harmonize with Scripture properly interpreted, that is, Scripture understood as a faithful interpretation of what the author meant to convey. That is all I am saying. Another question is looming, though: What happens when experts disagree on what is to be take literally and what is to be taken figuratively. I will comment on that if anyone has an interest.
I would rather have you comment on why you think you do not need to take a global flood into account when you do geology and on why you think you do not need to take the order of creation into account when you do cosmology and why you think you do not need to take the curse into account when you interpret the history of life. But, as you agreed, science can make mistakes. So, the problem is, how do we know when science has gotten it right and when it is in error. I think it is highly instructive to remember that most science is done using methodological naturalism. The assumption is that God had no role in anything. So, Scriptural references to the flood, order of creation, Tower of Babel and origin of language, etc are all ignored. However, YECs think that just as the Scriptures can help an archeologist properly interpret his find, so it can help scientists properly interpret their evidence. I agree that when science gets it right, it will harmonize with Scripture properly interpreted, but I highly doubt whether rejecting the flood can rightfully be called "proper interpretation". I highly doubt whether the old earth position which only came onto the scene and became popular in the last 150 years or so, can be really called the "proper interpretation" in light of the way Genesis is written. If the author meant to say that the days of Genesis are long periods of time, there were ways to say that. But God used the word day for a reason. In fact He clearly tells us that reason in Ex. 20:11. Don't you think that God knew how people would interpret what He wrote? In other words, don't you think He would have known that for thousands of years the truth of Scripture would have been hidden from humans if He used the word "day"? Don't you think He knew that thanks only to godless men who rejected Scripture, would we ever uncover the truth He was trying to communicate to us? I think He knew that. So I highly doubt that God would have chosen to use the word "day" if He didn't really mean a 24 hour period of time. How about you?tjguy
May 11, 2012
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Dear Tragic Mishap, In 43 you write:
YECs are in the business of Truth. As such, we acknowledge that divine revelation constitutes the highest possible level of truth available. As such, science is flawed if it doesn’t match divine revelation. So the goal of a creation scientist is to match science to divine revelation to make science better.
OK, so Hugh Ross does much the same and arrives at a very different conclusion. Irrespective of what you may think of Ross's analysis, why don't you acknowledge that "Truth" as you draw it from divine revelation found in Scripture is simply one possible interpretation of the evidence from Genesis? Irenaeus, Origen, Augustine, Bishop Basil didn't insist upon such a literal rendering. Augustine is an interesting example in this regard. While he believed the earth to be thousands of years old, he did so because he (like most early European scholars) believed it to be based upon the best reading of nature not necessarily Scripture. Augustine was convinced that quite apart from biblical revelation, ordinary people (including non-Christians) were perfectly capable of understanding the natural world. Augustine seems to default to an understanding of natural things based upon a reading of Natural Philosophy rather than Scripture and even suggests that interpretations that go in the other direction (from Scripture to nature) can do great harm:
Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of the world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons[emphasis added], about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?
Although Augustine is perhaps too harsh here, my point is hardly so strident. Why not simply admit that your reading of Genesis is just one possible interpretation. You think it "makes science better," but in what sense "better"? I seems to me that forcings of particular readings of Scripture upon the natural world can be extremely problematic. Why not admit that YE is "an" explanation not "the only" possible explanation of Creation from a reading of Genesis.Flannery
May 11, 2012
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tjguy, All your questions @49 are good ones. I certainly agree that Christian Theology, which is unchangeable, provides higher truths than any provisional finding which science may offer. Naturally, though, we want to know for sure if the biblical truth we think we have attained has been reliably ascertained. Since I have already indicated what I believe to be the "interpretive framework" for science, namely the first rules of right reason--to which I would now add the rules of evidence (and a few other things I will leave for now) I turn now to the the problem of Biblical exegesis, which I think is the more important problem because it pertains to a higher truth. This raises a vitally important question: What is the proper standard for interpreting Scripture? I submit that our Holy Book does not, in all cases, speak for itself. If it did, there would be no disagreements about meaning and only one Christian Church would exist. But let's return to the problem of exegesis and the ways humans study the Bible. First, we can speak of "liberals," those who interpret Scripture in self-serving ways, reading their own preferences INTO the passages (eisegesis) Next, we can speak of truth seekers, those who interpret Scripture honestly, reading OUT of the passages what is there rather than what they might wish is there (exegesis). Obviously, we can safely discount anything that liberals pass along to us because we know that they distort the truth and turn it into a lie. Still, even among those who sincerely try to read what is there, we still have a problem because there are two main approaches one can take, the "Literal" interpretation and the "literalist" interpretation. (We have to pay attention to these things because each book of the bible has two authors--God and the human author. Divine Inspiration does not mean Divine dictation--it means Divine guidance in the context of human style. St Paul, for example, doesn't write like St. Luke, or like Moses, but God is speaking through these men in every case). The "literal" interpretation, which is the correct approach, tries to extract the meaning the author meant to convey when he wrote the passage. It also takes into account the genre of expression, the historical context, and other important factors that will help in that analysis. The "literalist" interpretation, which is sometimes (not always) misleading, simply analyzes the words without regard for context, metaphors, or other literary devices. When, for example, Jesus, who is also God, said that the Father "makes the sun rise," He was not unaware that the earth revolves around the sun, rather he was using phenomenological language to make a point about God's power with his uneducated listeners. When He says, "If any man thirsts," He is speaking figuratively about spiritual deprivation, not an absence of water. On the other hand, when He speaks of "eternal life," He means that literally. Still, when He tells us to forgive those who offend us seven times seventy seven, he doesn't mean that we should quit on the fiftieth time--he means that we should keep on forgiving indefinitely. Can you imagine what a "literalist" would do with many of these passages. Yes, Scripture is a higher order of knowledge than science, but it can illuminate science only if the standards for sound interpretation are utilized. You say that science is not inerrant and may produce error. Granted. Still, science sometimes gets it right (or comes close) and when it does, it will harmonize with Scripture properly interpreted, that is, Scripture understood as a faithful interpretation of what the author meant to convey. That is all I am saying. Another question is looming, though: What happens when experts disagree on what is to be take literally and what is to be taken figuratively. I will comment on that if anyone has an interest.StephenB
May 10, 2012
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Genomicus, just my $0.02 here. Without debating endless particulars, it's well understood that YEC begins with a sacred text because there is very good reason to believe it has the goods with regard to truth; and by necessity, more so than historical inferences and assumptions of uniformitarianism. This isn't a difference which can be resolved with a worldview which rejects that the Bible is God's word, and that God validates this by foretelling the future and recording its fulfillment, and that it's origins are unmistakably from outside of time and space. The argument isn't over facts, it's over the interpretation of those facts, the framework in which they are interpreted, and the presumed highest authority in begetting truth; with YEC it's the word of God, and with mainstream science it's materialism. The world views are not compatible in the least, and so understandably neither are the conclusions.material.infantacy
May 10, 2012
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I'm curious if anyone else is aware of a science article I read over twenty-five years ago that discussed at length the original efforts to date the stars. The first attempts came back with the answer that the stars were younger than the earth, so the scientists adjusted their formula until they got the "right answer." The final answer didn't matter to me one way or the other, but, as an engineer, it bothered me how easily they gave up on their original formula, which they had expressed complete confidence in before the tests. It also bothered me that they adjusted the formula until they got the answer they were expecting. I know, I know, someone will say that other things led them to adjust, but the article was clear that the reason for the adjustment was because the stars could not be younger than the earth. Over the years, I've seen numerous cases of this approach of "adjusting things until you get what you expect or want" and can't help but wonder how often it's really warranted... and how often it keeps us from getting to the real answer. Anyway, it's been too long ago to remember the source of the article, but it was one of the major science publications during that time. If anyone else has ever run across it, please let me know.ChristBearer
May 10, 2012
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YECs are in the business of Truth. I'm probably going to regret getting into this YEC discussion, but no, I would disagree with the claim that YECs are in the business of truth. They may think they are, but we need to go where the evidence leads us - regardless of what you personally believe to be true. Truth is not subjective. And the evidence - from paleontology to astronomy to molecular data - indicates that the earth is far older than that allowed by YECs. You can't try to fit science to your own particular sacred text. You have to be objective about this.Genomicus
May 10, 2012
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StephenB said:
On the other hand, if, with its protocol, science corroborates truths found in Scripture, which has a different protocol, that would be far more impressive. Indeed, that is the case. Truths provided by God through his Divine revelation are consistent with truths apprehended through God’s revelation in nature. Faith and reason are perfectly compatible. TEs do not believe this, to their discredit.
StephenB, the problem is that “science”, in order to be said to corroborate or invalidate Scripture, has to arrive at conclusions based on the evidence. What principles or interpretive framework will you use to make these inferences/conclusions? In order to accurately discern the “truths” apprehended through nature, sometimes you need to start with a biblical worldview. If you don’t, you will not validate the Bible. Let’s take the Big Bang. YECers reject the Big Bang outright because it doesn’t fit with the Bible, but there is also scientific evidence to back up that rejection. Yes, it validates the Bible in the sense that the universe had a beginning like the Bible says, but it does not validate the Bible in terms of the history of the universe. The Bible tells us that the sun, moon, and stars were made on day 4. So, the question has to be, if it does not agree with the Bible, is it really a “truth apprehended through nature” or is it a misinterpretation of nature based on non-biblical assumptions? Although the Big Bang is accepted by a majority of scientists as the best current theory, it has many problems and fudge factors added to try and keep it afloat. There is a website - I think it is cosmologystatement.org - that gives a list of many scientists who question the Big Bang for various reasons so it is not quite as simple as you would make it out to be. ID too has a framework through which it interprets the evidence. The ID framework is to accept the basic assumptions and conclusions of science that come out of a uniformitarian framework of interpretation – even if it contradicts the Bible. Then they take those conclusions and go back to the Bible and find a way to read long ages into it. This is a new interpretation of the Bible since Charles Lyell and friends began spreading the uniformitarian doctrine. It also gives priority to scientific conclusions over the historical record of the Bible concerning the flood, tower of Babel, and for some even Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden. You said that truths provide by God in the Bible are consistent with truths apprehended through nature. We agree that they should be and that is why we use the interpretive framework that we do. Using your framework, biblical truths and the "truths" of nature are not consistent. The Bible is the inerrant Word of God, but nature is not inerrant. It was cursed after Adam and Eve sinned and now the once perfect creation is no longer perfect but filled with disease, suffering, and death. Weeds and thorns came into being, etc. so that now the whole creation groans waiting for it's redemption, - if you do not realize that, you will think that God created all these things and is responsible for the suffering and even "bad" design that we see. And since God clearly tells us what happened in His Word, I don't think this can be fairly called deceptive. What do you think?tjguy
May 10, 2012
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--tragic mishap: "In short, the questions you ask and the problems you see with current science depend entirely on a subjective lens through which all humans interpret reality." I argued that scientific epistemology begins with assumptions, but that scientific methodology does not--and I explained why that is the case. If, as you say, scientific mmethodology depends on and begins with assumptions, how does one avoid circular reasoning and how is a scientific inference possible?StephenB
May 10, 2012
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Why do you call the normal plain reading of Scripture that believers practiced for centuries a “hyperlexic interpretation” of the text?
And this in a conversation where those who don't take an "obvious" interpretation of the scientific evidence are ridiculed. Which standard is higher? Which one should the obvious interpretation be taken at the expense of the other? If your answers to these questions are different, then I say it's you who have the logical problem, not YECs.tragic mishap
May 10, 2012
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Flannery, in your post you said this:
My problem with the YEC position is two-fold: 1) The particular (one might say idiosyncratic) exegesis of Genesis to which YECs are committed is by no means demanded to retain orthodoxy, and a number of important church fathers have refused such a hyperlexic reading of the text; and 2) if so many features of nature are indeed illusory, where do we draw the epistemological line?
I have a question about each of your points. First point, are you aware that the vast majority of early Church Fathers and the OT Jewish scholars held to a YEC position?
“Let me concede that young earth creationism was largely the position of the church from the Church Fathers through the Reformers. (though there were exceptions, such as Origen and Augustine).” Dr. William Dembski
He mentions Augustine and Origen as exceptions, but actually both of them were YECers, although they used a symbolic interpretation of the days. Augustine thought it must have been an instantaneous creation, but he was a YECer as was Origen. And in fact, Augustine changed his views on allegory late in his life. His book “On Genesis Literally Interpreted” was written toward the end of his life and in it he renounces all allegorical and typological interpretation like he had used in his previous exegesis of Genesis. He believed in a literal Adam and Eve and a literal Garden of Eden. Just because someone recognizes some symbolism in the account does not mean they also do not believe it was literal. In fact, I think God is amazing. He uses things like the 6 days of creation on purpose to get His point across clearly. He created in 6 days for the very purpose of giving us humans the pattern for 6 days of work and one of rest in the 7 day week. And He told us as much in Exodus. Anyway, I’m just curious as to what evidence you have to back up that claim about the early church fathers, because I'm not aware of it. Why do you call the normal plain reading of Scripture that believers practiced for centuries a "hyperlexic interpretation" of the text? Jesus himself believed in Moses and even a young earth. Was He too practicing a "hyperlexic interpretation" of His own Word? Also, point number 2. “If so many features of nature are indeed illusory, where do we draw the epistemological line?” Why do you say that many features of nature are illusory? If God tells us in His Word how He did it and when, then why are they illusory? He is being very up front and clear about it. He is giving us hints as to how to interpret the evidence we see. If we reject those hints, how can He be accused of being illusory? Fossils look old? What if they were mostly formed during the flood along with most of the geologic rock record? Would they still look ancient then? I don’t know about you, but to me, this is not being illusory.
I hold no ill will for YECs, but some seem to use the age of the earth as a line-in-the-sand issue and a litmus test for fellowsip. That is unfortunate.
I agree. And, on the other hand, I hold no ill-will for OECs, but some seem to look down on us and ridicule us with disdain. That is unfortunate.tjguy
May 10, 2012
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Barry, Just out of curiosity, what are you warning Tragic for? His attitude? His posting a link? Are there rules I'm not familiar with? Thanks. tjtjguy
May 10, 2012
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Collin said he wants evidence that the speed of light is slowing down. Barry Setterfield is the original guy who first posited this idea I think. Do a search for his name and maybe you can find some of his research. However, I think his ideas have pretty much been found to be flawed even among YECs so you are probably right that you won't find any. However, the fact remains that we cannot PROVE that it did not change. We have good reason to believe it did not because it would contradict Einstein's theory of relativity as well as cause some other headaches for scientists, but it cannot be proven in the scientific sense of the word. In fact, if you do a search on the web for speed of light change or something like that, you will find that there are even non-creationist scientists who are open to the possibility of the speed of light having changed in the past, even on earth. I found one article that argues for an increase in the speed of light and was published in New Scientist back in 2004. Sure, the idea has problems, but it is not only creationists who are/were open to this idea.tjguy
May 10, 2012
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YECs are in the business of Truth. As such, we acknowledge that divine revelation constitutes the highest possible level of truth available. As such, science is flawed if it doesn't match divine revelation. So the goal of a creation scientist is to match science to divine revelation to make science better. I reject your idea of science as a process which is pure and free from subjectivity through the use of standardized protocols, especially when we're dealing with such highly theoretical models as modern physics is used to dealing with. For instance, is your belief in current astrophysical models so strong that you accept, solely on the basis of the theory, that large percentages of both its matter and energy are unobserved? Would that not be unacceptable according to your Example 3? There are many physicists who accept this and go looking for evidence of dark matter. There are others who reject it and go looking for a better theory. Both are doing science. Yet there is no methodology that dictates a scientist do one thing or another. One may prefer that a theory be "mathematically beautiful." What possible methodology could justify this? Others may prefer that a theory account for all observable evidence and not posit the unobservable. But again, what possible methodological protocols justify this? In short, the questions you ask and the problems you see with current science depend entirely on a subjective lens through which all humans interpret reality. The fact that creation scientists choose to accept Genesis as historical fact and divine revelation and view reality through that lens is no more or less legitimate than preferring string theory because it is "mathematically beautiful."tragic mishap
May 10, 2012
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--tragic mishap: "I do acknowledge that. (YEC methodology begins with faith). And so do yours. So does everybody’s." What do you think of my answer to that argument @41StephenB
May 10, 2012
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bevets, you raise some interesting and thoughtful points. I appreciate your comments very much. For my part, it helps to make a distinction between epistemology and methodology. epistemology: To be sure, all investigations, indeed, all thought, begins with certain epistemological assumptions, such as the law of non-contradiction,the law of causality, the principle of sufficient reason etc. We do not reason to these self-evident truths; we reason from them. In keeping with that point, it is only through them that we can interpret evidence in a reasonable manner methodology: On the other hand, a methodology is simply a step-by step protocol that is based on those principles. Let's consider a few of them from various disciplines. Example 1: Define problem, analyze alternatives, make a decision. Example 2 Take action, consult feedback, change approach, take new action. Example 3: Observe data, take notes, conduct experiment, etc. Science is, in large part, associated with the protocol of observing particulars through observation and then drawing inferences about the universal population That is what we do with statistics. We observe particulars in the form of a sample size and then draw inferences about the universal population. If we could not begin with the observation of a particular, as opposed to beginning with an assumption, then there could be no such thing as a statistical inference--no such thing as any inference. Our conclusions would be mere repetitions of our assumptions and our scientific reasoning would be totally circular. Under those circumstances, ID could not make an "inference to the best explanation," because there would be no such thing as an inference. YEC has a different protocol. It begins with an analysis of God's word and seeks to harmonize the data with it. Science, though, needs it own room to breathe. If science was simply the act of harmonizing the data to match God's word, it would not have the power to confirm God's word. On the other hand, if, with its protocol, science corroborates truths found in Scripture, which has a different protocol, that would be far more impressive. Indeed, that is the case. Truths provided by God through his Divine revelation are consistent with truths apprehended through God's revelation in nature. Faith and reason are perfectly compatible. TEs do not believe this, to their discredit.StephenB
May 10, 2012
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Thanks TMCollin
May 10, 2012
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Tragic Mishap, you are warned.Barry Arrington
May 10, 2012
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Collin, that would take a book. I suggest this one: http://www.amazon.com/The-New-Creationism-Scientific-Foundation/dp/0852346921tragic mishap
May 10, 2012
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Robert Sheldon, That which leads a man to pray is from God. Thank you.Collin
May 10, 2012
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Christbearer, I would really like it if a YEC did an article summarizing its best evidence and positions. I would be curious to read it.Collin
May 10, 2012
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Barry, I like your post, and while both you and ted are prickly opponents, I do think ted's response avoided the substance of your post and purposely took offense at an unimportant detail. You might have been gracious just so that he wouldn't have had an excuse to avoid your most insightful critique, or rather, that his avoidance would have been made more obvious. And while I think your analogy between YEC and TE is spot on, there is yet another way in which both err. That is, just because a disreputable source uses your favorite argument doesn't invalidate the argument. Any you say yourself that God *could* have done it that way. But what invalidates the argument is precisely that concession. There are many things that God cannot do. He cannot lie, he cannot change, he cannot make a mistake, etc. He is true to himself. But making fossils appear old isn't lying, is it? Yes and no. We do not have the authority to judge God, and tell him he is wrong, which is what accusing him of lying would be. God is truth. So what he makes is true. Rather, if he made it appear to be old when it wasn't, then there is a problem in our understanding of the truth that is God. It's a hermeneutics problem. But if you pick up a book on hermeneutics in the hopes of knowing whether making fossils look old violates some principle, you will run into the "hermeneutical circle" which says that our concepts of right and wrong inform our hermeneutical method, and our hermeneutical method informs our concepts of right and wrong. There is no way to know for certain that we are interpreting the Bible and Science correctly. All that effort and we are right back to saying that TE and YEC cannot be evaluated! Much use that diversion accomplished! But wait, there is a way out of the hermeneutical circle. It's called person. Once we insert ourselves into the hermeneutical circle, we are no longer talking about "God's truth" or "your truth" but we are talking about "my salvation" and "my hope" and "my responsibility". It isn't just that the Bible is right, but that it is the way of my salvation. It isn't just that the Bible is true, but that it is the power of God unto salvation. THen when we ask "Could God create fossils to look old?" the answer isn't "he has the power" or "he doesn't have the right", the answer is "Ask him. He'll tell you." What does Psalm 19 say, "Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge." The brother of Jesus writes "you have not because you ask not." And this is the real reason both TE and YEC err. Because they think they cannot ask, or perhaps because they think God cannot answer. For whenever we say, "we can never know X", where X might be "true age of fossil" or "true purpose to evolution" or "nature of the Trinity" we are de-personalizing God. We are judging him, we are limiting him, we are treating him as if he does not know what he is doing when he made us with brains to think and mouths to ask. A far more humble position in both hermeneutics and science is to say "I do not know, but I can ask."Robert Sheldon
May 10, 2012
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On the other hand, Barry’s YEC critics must acknowledge that their scientific methodology, like the TE methodology, begins with faith, not observation.
I do acknowledge that. And so do yours. So does everybody's.tragic mishap
May 10, 2012
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I tried very hard to be respectful while disagreeing.
So as long as you're respectful it's okay to have no clue what you're talking about?tragic mishap
May 10, 2012
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Barry, "TEs are like YECs in this respect — they cling to a scientific view that runs counter to the obvious evidence because of their prior commitments." I think some of the YECs are responding to the above sentence. That you didn't mean it to be condescending seems clear in your follow up responses, but it could come off that way in the original post. As a YEC, I know that I don't "cling to the scientific view that runs counter to the obvious evidence because of" my prior commitments. I just think the little evidence humans have at their disposal actually better supports the Biblical view. And this is coming from someone who actually accepted the old-age theory of the earth for several years. But, the more I studied the issue, the more I began to see how much opposing evidence one has to ignore in order to hold the old-age theory up, which makes me wonder: Wouldn't it be great to have a thread where everyone pulled up a chair and threw all the "known" evidence into the circle and see it where it all leads?ChristBearer
May 10, 2012
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As usual, StephenB said what I had in mind better than I did.Barry Arrington
May 10, 2012
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Creatoblepas, Can you please give me a citation that shows that the speed of light is decreasing. I would like to read it. I am uncomfortable with the rejection of uniformitarianism because it makes me wonder, what can we really know? Are we in a universe that tries to deceive us?Collin
May 10, 2012
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