Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Human Consciousness

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(From In the Beginning … ):

For the layman, it is the last step in evolution that is the most difficult to explain. You may be able to convince him that natural selection can explain the appearance of complicated robots, who walk the Earth and write books and build computers, but you will have a harder time convincing him that a mechanical process such as natural selection could cause those robots to become conscious. Human consciousness is in fact the biggest problem of all for Darwinism, but it is hard to say anything “scientific” about consciousness, since we don’t really know what it is, so it is also perhaps the least discussed.

Nevertheless, one way to appreciate the problem it poses for Darwinism or any other mechanical theory of evolution is to ask the question: is it possible that computers will someday experience consciousness? If you believe that a mechanical process such as natural selection could have produced consciousness once, it seems you can’t say it could never happen again, and it might happen faster now, with intelligent designers helping this time. In fact, most Darwinists probably do believe it could and will happen—not because they have a higher opinion of computers than I do: everyone knows that in their most impressive displays of “intelligence,” computers are just doing exactly what they are told to do, nothing more or less. They believe it will happen because they have a lower opinion of humans: they simply dumb down the definition of consciousness, and say that if a computer can pass a “Turing test,” and fool a human at the keyboard in the next room into thinking he is chatting with another human, then the computer has to be considered to be intelligent, or conscious. With the right software, my laptop may already be able to pass a Turing test, and convince me that I am Instant Messaging another human. If I type in “My cat died last week” and the computer responds “I am saddened by the death of your cat,” I’m pretty gullible, that might convince me that I’m talking to another human. But if I look at the software, I might find something like this:

if (verb == ‘died’)
fprintf(1,’I am saddened by the death of your %s’,noun)
end

I’m pretty sure there is more to human consciousness than this, and even if my laptop answers all my questions intelligently, I will still doubt there is “someone” inside my Intel processor who experiences the same consciousness that I do, and who is really saddened by the death of my cat, though I admit I can’t prove that there isn’t.

I really don’t know how to argue with people who believe computers could be conscious. About all I can say is: what about typewriters? Typewriters also do exactly what they are told to do, and have produced some magnificent works of literature. Do you believe that typewriters can also be conscious?

And if you don’t believe that intelligent engineers could ever cause machines to attain consciousness, how can you believe that random mutations could accomplish this?

Comments
Clocks work on mod 12 (or 24 here in the UK or the Navy). So . . . 8:00 + 9:00 = 17:00 (in the UK) but 5:00 in the US. and 3:00 pm (or 15:00) + 12:00 = 3:00 in both. 9:00 + 48:00 = 9:00 Crazy arithmetic. But it worksellazimm
September 19, 2010
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Might be worth mentioning modular arithmetic too. 1 + 1 = 2 (mod 4) 1 + 2 = 3 (mod 4) 2 + 2 = 0 (mod 4) 2 + 3 = 1 (mod 4) 3 + 3 = 2 (mod 4) You should see some of the 'systems' you can create in group theory. It's the non-abelian stuff that gets me. Bizarre.ellazimm
September 19, 2010
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PS: What happens when you don't understand that 2 + 2 = 4 is self-evident, and instead think that the explanatory construct from axioms (useful as axiomatisation is . . . ) is the "real" foundation of 2 + 2 = 4.kairosfocus
September 19, 2010
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O/T^2 F/N: For those interested in reading up on floating point stuff, this may be a useful read. Also, this. (Observe the real world cases.)kairosfocus
September 19, 2010
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Onlookers (& BR): Yet more side tracks and evasions. Sad. Ever so sad. Scientific notation and its extension into floating point arithmetic, are of course BASED on ordinary arithmetic. [I suspect, originally, the underlying notation was devised to permit use of logarithms in calculation, e.g. the bar-notation technique for negative powers of ten.] Including, the self-evident truths of that basic arithmetic. Which include: || + || --> |||| 2 + 2 = 4 In short, such extensions build on the basic principles of arithmetic, inclduing the first facts of addition. They do not contradict them. They are thus consistent with the fact that, for instance, 2 + 2 = 4 is not only true, but MUST be true [and is not merely true by definition or saying the same thing twice over in different words: 2 + 2 is a binary operation, and 4 is its RESULT, not a mere definition, never mind the equivalence of cardinalities involved], once on our experience of the world [here acquired by about age 5], we understand the symbols and operations involved. That is, 2 + 2 = 4 is indeed self-evident. (Cf 187 - 191 above.)) Again, for the reason why self-evident truths are being so stoutly resisted, at the price of evasions, irrelevancies [the history of citations????!!!!], side-tracks, attempts to blind with science, contradictions and adherence to other absurdities triggered by rejection of self-evident truth, cf 362 above. As well, CH, in 361 above, amply shows how radical relativism becomes self-referentially absurd by asserting universal claims to try to reject such claims. The issue on the merits is plainly long since over. And, maybe we need to highlight what is in the end at stake on evolutionary materialism, including its commitment to radical relativism and where it leads through its impact on the ideology and agendas of the bright but ill-advised young minds that it corrupts. So, again, Plato, c. 360 BC (yes, evo mat is over 2,300 years old, and is [ill-founded] philosophy at root, not science); in his The Laws, Bk X: ____________________ >> Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view!] . . . . [[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new.] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might, and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions, these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others, and not in legal subjection to them. >> _____________________ More is at stake, at a higher potential cost to our common civilisation and world, than we might think at first. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 19, 2010
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I will be offline for the next few days, as there are many experiments to run and a conference deadline is looming. I'm happy to rejoin later if the discussion will involve something more than repeating myself. Otherwise, it's been quite educational, and I thank you for your close attention. Best, BarryBarryR
September 19, 2010
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CY@386
But then you haven’t concluded that it is indeed useless, and you have done exactly what I expected you would – redefined the terms
As you didn't define your terms, I hardly think it's fair to accuse me of redefining them. If you had put the question in a context of cosmology, the answer would be been an obvious "no". If you had put the answer in the context of quantum physics, the answer would have been "maybe, but probably not". If you decline to specify a context, I'm happy to do so for you, and that's what I did.
You have the knowledge, yet you deny from whence it came, you seem to deny that it is knowledge (because you can’t be certain), and you also appear to deny that you acquired the knowledge because of your previous denial that you could be certain.
There have been many studies done on how students' thinking matures as they go through college. There's a definite phase in the teenage years where everything is seen as black and white, and trying to teach concepts that aren't black and white tends to be pretty futile. That's my best explanation as to what's happening here. Or maybe it's something simpler: once you've done science for a living, you realize that "model" is a incredibly powerful metaphor that allows you to do some really amazing things. (Quoting Box) all models are wrong, but some are useful. Because all models are wrong, we're free to make models that are still wrong but progressively more useful. If a model was right, there would be no reason to try to improve it. But once you get outside of academia and the sciences, the continuum disappears and you're either certain or you don't know anything. I suppose that's a comforting thought, but you can do better.
You’d make a terrible judge. You couldn’t convict anyone. You’d always find a way out of a situation for the accused by changing the context, and making all the arguments irrelevant. You’d say things like: Prosecutor, the “evidence,” which you presented may not be evidence because of such and such a context in which it might not be so.”
And yet, a juror is never asked to return a verdict of absolutely guilty or absolutely innocent. It's always "beyond reasonable doubt" or "a preponderance of the evidence". So the juror is presented with the same set of facts and two contexts, and then the jury does exactly what I do as a scientists: evaluate the models, not to determine which one is True, but simply to determine which one is better. There is no certainty expected anywhere in the process. (This is even more evident when you move beyond juries and on up the appeals process. I've had a long habit of listening to US Supreme Court oral arguments on long car drives. They're fascinating. If a case has gotten all the way to the Supreme Court, then you can be guaranteed both that it's not obvious or easy and that counsel will be making a very good argument. Definitely worth a listen.)BarryR
September 19, 2010
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VB@384 I'm taking "universal" to mean "applies to every context". Demonstrating a single context that allows contradictory statements is sufficient to show that non-contradiction does not apply to all systems, and thus I do not consider it to be universal.BarryR
September 19, 2010
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Do you concede then that this is contradictory, because you’re tacitly claiming that one logical truth, that is, the context dependency of truth, is supposed to be true regardless of context,
As I'm not claiming that, the question is moot. There's no difficulty at all in creating a context where all contexts are ruled by overarching universal truths. Simply state it and it comes into being. I can examine that context critically like any other context. I can measure its utility. And I'm not impressed. You're trying for something much grander --- not only do there exists contexts defined by universal rules, but there cannot exist any contexts not defined by these universal rules, and any imagined context not defined by these universal rules must somehow be in error. I can step out of that system, evaluate the utility with regard to other systems and decide to discard it like any other non-useful system. I'm not arguing for any universal rule, especially the absence of universal rules. There may be contexts that it's impossible for me to step out of. There may be contexts where I cannot measure the utility. And, of course, the whole approach may be wrong. But it's worked better than anything else I've examined so far, so until something better comes along I'm going to stick with it.
“no one can tell anyone else what they can or cannot do”
As a command, that's contradictory. As an observation, it's fine. I'm making observations on how different contexts interrelate. If I wanted to say something (with certainty) about all contexts, then yes, I'd be in danger of contradicting myself. Again, this is a very scientific way of thinking. By looking at a handful of hydrogen atoms, I have a good idea about how hydrogen atoms a the other end of the universe behaved near the beginning of time. Am I certain about this? No, and indeed those models have been corrected over the years. But I can be near-certain (modulo Descartes malevolent demon) that this is the best explanation I currently have.
You presuppose it even in determining whether something is logical or not for goodness sakes.
What's "it"? What's logical for a deterministic finite state machine isn't logical for a non-deterministic finite state machine. What's logical for Euclidean geometry isn't logical for non-Euclidean geometry. What's logical for systems based on Peano axioms isn't logical for lambda calculus. Why would I think there was some overarching logic common to all of them?
If we were in a blank slate, tabula rasa, in a logical void, we could never compare any system to logic in order to even call it logical, all determinations as such would be like the arbitrary wishes of a partisan.
Evolution guarantees that we don't start out on a blank slate, and we model our initial systems of logic from abstractions of the world around us. Evolution has also given us a brain that allows us to make abstractions of those abstractions and, to some limited extent, reason about them. But yes, I agree with you: a tabula rosa state would not give rise to logic (at least not until there had been significant interaction with the environment --- depends on how rosa you allow your tabula to be.)
I once read a story about a guy who claimed that there was no truth (or at least, that we couldn’t know it if there were), and didn’t see the contradiction in his own claim, but I have to admit this is the first time I’ve actually ever met one.
Who was it? I don't know of a reliable way to ascertain universal truth. I've never met anyone with a reliable way of ascertaining universal truth. I don't see how it can be done. Stating that it cannot be done in principle is an argument from ignorance and a fallacy. Stating that it's so extraordinarily unlikely that we can dismiss it as a possibility is good scientific thinking. In still other words: I can't be certain that we cannot access universal laws. But I can be near-certain, and I am.
It’s called thinking.
And thinking is notoriously unreliable. (That's on of the reasons we have peer-reviewed journals to hash these things out.)
You’re going to remain certain about your uncertainty, anything else reduces itself, step by step, how ever far you trace it back, to nonsense
That's not clear to me. Please demonstrate. For example: In the third chapter of my dissertation I proposed a model that reduced prediction error by an order of magnitude. I am near certain that the experiments were run correctly, I'm near-certain that the calculations were done correctly, and I'm near-certain that the reduction in error is due to my model, not a malevolent demon. My Ph.D. adviser and my dissertation committee share my near-certainty. Two other groups, one in the Netherlands and one in Greece, independently discovered the same model (which has made publication tricky). They're also near-certain. How does this reduce to nonsense?
Even your continuum of certainty presupposes that you should certainly use a continuum
Really? That would mean I was certain that I should be using a continuum. And I'm not certain about that --- I have no problem admitting this approach may be wrong. It just happens to be the best one I've come up with so far. [I'm surprised I have this much patience, but it's very much like me speaking to myself at a much younger age. I have no difficulty remembering believing in universal laws and certainty. Reading Thomas Aquinas was probably what dislodged me from that position, although the philosophy classes gave me the framework to understand what I was reading.]BarryR
September 19, 2010
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BarryR, But then you haven't concluded that it is indeed useless, and you have done exactly what I expected you would - redefined the terms, which I asked you not to do, and furthermore, repositioned the context in order to escape the illustration of a point. This is where I'm confused (read baffled) with all your knowledge of these issues, yet you can't seem to (or won't) grasp the very simple basis for truth. It's like a man who builds a house. He has all the knowledge on how to build it, including the knowledge of architecture, engineering, carpentry, masonry, electrical and plumbing. Once he finishes building the house he moves into it, and it is very real to him, yet he denies that he built it, or that he lives in it, or even that it is in fact a house. That man appears to be you. You have the knowledge, yet you deny from whence it came, you seem to deny that it is knowledge (because you can't be certain), and you also appear to deny that you acquired the knowledge because of your previous denial that you could be certain. In other words, you live in a house you build, but can't grasp the simple fact that it is a house. You'd make a terrible judge. You couldn't convict anyone. You'd always find a way out of a situation for the accused by changing the context, and making all the arguments irrelevant. You'd say things like: Prosecutor, the "evidence," which you presented may not be evidence because of such and such a context in which it might not be so." BTW, Barry, if every truth is context dependent, then every word in your above post should have a separate set of quotes around it, not just the word "useful." Let me ask you this: Do you teach? If so, I feel sorry for your students. I fully expect further equivocation on all these points. You are anything if not persistent.CannuckianYankee
September 19, 2010
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RE 374 “It’s the fact that not all systems need be NC that prevents it from being universal.” I forgot to ask if you are certain of the fact that not all systems need be NC? Vividvividbleau
September 19, 2010
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RE374 "It’s the fact that not all systems need be NC that prevents it from being universal." So what? Why does that fact prevet NC from being a universal law? Vividvividbleau
September 19, 2010
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CY@380
Could you hold that such a system is useful and useless at the same time and still remain coherent?
Ah, so you want utility *and* coherence.... ;-) In my "useful" definition of utility, I take a single measurement against a single context. As such, no examples of simultaneous 2-valued utility are coming to mind. But that's not the only definition of utility, and realistic ones that measure a single context across several dimensions might be closer to what you're thinking of (perhaps the predictions are accurate --- high utility, but the model doesn't explain why --- low utility). Or if you wanted to broaden the definition of context, then a theorem that would have high utility for a graduate student might simultaneously have low utility for an undergraduate. So yes, I think you can construct contexts with simultaneous, distinct values of utility, and those may have a more practical application for how we think in day-to-day life, but here I think it's simpler to define the context such that this doesn't occur.BarryR
September 19, 2010
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A further note from Burkhard at talk.origins on the origins of citations:
Since you are like me a collector of cultural trifles: It is not totally relevant to your question regarding referencing, but it is the oldest (563AD), if somewhat apocryphal, case of a copyright dispute. St. Colm cille of Iona had copied St Finian of Movilla’s vulgata translation of St Jerome’s Psalter (without acknowledging Finian as translator, of course) . Finian was not amused and claimed the copy as his. The High King Diarmuid Mac Cearbhaill, sitting in judgement famously ruled: “To every cow her calf, and to every book its copy” and decided for Finian Enraged, Colm cille called his clan, the northern Uí Néill, to war with Diarmuid’s followers, and in the subsequent battle at Cúl Dreimhne, 3000 of the King's man died. Colm cille was later forced into exile by the King. So tell your contact that inappropriate citing can lead to clan warfare and the death of many, that should give him better reasons than some peer reviewed paper.
BarryR
September 19, 2010
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BarryR,
That’s correct. “Logic” and “illogical” apply within contexts, not outside them.
Do you concede then that this is contradictory, because you're tacitly claiming that one logical truth, that is, the context dependency of truth, is supposed to be true regardless of context, and is supposed to apply to all contexts. If it is not true, or not applicable to all contexts, then your argument fails. But so does your argument if it is true, for that means you're making an exception for this one truth applying to all contexts. It's akin to saying, "no one can tell anyone else what they can or cannot do"----which is actually a way of telling everyone what they can or cannot do. Claiming that all truth and logic is context dependent, makes an exception for the truth of the claim that it is context dependent, because at least that truth is not context dependent, but rather is supposed to hold true to all contexts. I can do this all day if you would like. How many more contradictory twists can we get you out of?
Where? I’ve looked at the Peano axioms. I’ve looked at the axioms used to create lambda calculus. I’ve studied perhaps another half-dozen systems in depth and can probably come up with another dozen more I’ve heard of. What you’re saying simply isn’t true for these systems. But for sake of argument, let’s say there’s a conspiracy of textbooks writers and that they do actually borrow from a greater logic. I’d be willing to consider that if you could describe the logic, but for whatever reason you only suggest concepts that are obviously context-specific (like modus ponens). So yes, I’m a little skeptical.
You presuppose it even in determining whether something is logical or not for goodness sakes. If the category didn't already exist at large, no system could be compared to it to even call the systems logical or illogical. If we were in a blank slate, tabula rasa, in a logical void, we could never compare any system to logic in order to even call it logical, all determinations as such would be like the arbitrary wishes of a partisan. We would be playing with counters. I guess I'm going more foundational and fundamental than you're used to. It appears to me that you assume that any one thing, such as modus tollens, must be used in every instance or else it is not universal, whereas I see it as a tool to be used within a universal truth, and that it has it's place is not an argument against its universality. The argument you're making seems to me to be like saying that since every house is not painted blue, then colors are not real. A sense of discernment will tell you which logical tool to use when, and it will even tell you when some things it cannot do, such as discern the inner synthesis of nature as Chesterton so eloquently described. I once read a story about a guy who claimed that there was no truth (or at least, that we couldn't know it if there were), and didn't see the contradiction in his own claim, but I have to admit this is the first time I've actually ever met one.
Am I certain that I’m uncertain? How would I go about demonstrating that? I don’t know that I can.
It's called thinking.
So I think I’m going to remain uncertain about my uncertainty. (Sure, I’m nearly-certain that I’m uncertain, but scientifically I’m not able to say anything more. Yes, I can construct a logical system that will give me certainty, but I can also construct a logical system that preserves uncertainty. As I don’t have access to any universal logic, I think (but am not certain) that I’m at an impasse.)
You're going to remain certain about your uncertainty, anything else reduces itself, step by step, how ever far you trace it back, to nonsense, until not only have you done away with your argument, you've done away with yourself. Reductio ad absurdum. The interesting thing is that you think this is the more enlightened path. As if walking backwards, which will eventually do away with even walking itself, is supposed to get you somewhere. This thinking leaves you frozen to not even be able to think. Even your continuum of certainty presupposes that you should certainly use a continuum. Some things are non-negotiable, even with you, on pain of idiocy if you remove them.Clive Hayden
September 19, 2010
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BarryR "So while I see no difficulty creating a consistent formal system where Jupiter simultaneously exists and does not exist, my (tentative) conclusion is that such a system is useless." Let's assume for arguments sake that you've abandoned the tentative nature of your conclusion. You now hold that such a system is indeed useless; It serves no purpose. Could you hold that such a system is useful and useless at the same time and still remain coherent? Please answer without redefining the terms "useful" and "useless."CannuckianYankee
September 19, 2010
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StephanB@370
I appreciate your thoughts on this matter. My question, though, persists. Can the planet Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time and under that same formal circumstances.
There's nothing preventing you from constructing that hypothesis. Let's call it H. What does this hypothesis allow you to do? Not much that I can see. So there's not a lot of utility here. So while I see no difficulty creating a consistent formal system where Jupiter simultaneously exists and does not exist, my (tentative) conclusion is that such a system is useless.BarryR
September 19, 2010
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kairosfocus@375 I was hoping you say something like:
such computations is based on ordinary arithmetic, and the way the significant digits are manipulated is also dependent on ordinary arithmetic.
My initial impression of you was that you enjoyed going on at length about things you no nothing about, but it's nice to get that impression validated with a particular example. This program: #include int main(){ double x=2.0e-5; double y=2.0e5; double z = x+y; fprintf(stdout,"x=%012.12lf\n", x); fprintf(stdout,"y=%012.12lf\n", y); fprintf(stdout,"z=%012.12lf\n", z); return 0; } prints out x=0.000020000000 y=200000.000000000000 z=200000.000020000007 Hmmm... where did that 7 come from? With these changes double x=2.0e-7; double y=2.0e7; double z = x+y; I see x=0.000000200000 y=20000000.000000000000 z=20000000.000000201166 And with these changes double x=2.0e-9; double y=2.0e9; double z = x+y; I see x=0.000000002000 y=2000000000.000000000000 z=2000000000.000000000000 (code compiled using gcc 4.4.3 on a 64-bit core2 duo). I find nothing remarkable in all of this, but then I have a tolerable understanding of computer arithmetic, how it's implemented, and why these results are necessary for good performance. But it is not ordinary arithmetic. Nor is it invalid or illogical within its particular context.BarryR
September 19, 2010
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CH@372
then nothing is anything in particular, in mathematics or logic, and there would exist no basis for calling anything logical or illogical.
That's correct. "Logic" and "illogical" apply within contexts, not outside them.
but unless there is a greater logic that these systems borrow from
Where? I've looked at the Peano axioms. I've looked at the axioms used to create lambda calculus. I've studied perhaps another half-dozen systems in depth and can probably come up with another dozen more I've heard of. What you're saying simply isn't true for these systems. But for sake of argument, let's say there's a conspiracy of textbooks writers and that they do actually borrow from a greater logic. I'd be willing to consider that if you could describe the logic, but for whatever reason you only suggest concepts that are obviously context-specific (like modus ponens). So yes, I'm a little skeptical.
you can do no comparison between the two, to say that they are themselves logical or illogical
Correct --- comparisons of logic and illogic aren't made between systems for just this reason. That's why you don't hear of Euclidian geometry described as more or less logical than non-Euclidean geometry. They each follow their internal logic, not an external logic.
I could’ve just as easily asked how much dignity or shame does yellow have
And I can just as easily come up with a context where such a question is sensible.
The yellow badge (or yellow patch), also referred to as a Jewish badge, was a cloth patch that Jews were ordered to sew on their outer garments in order to mark them as Jews in public. It is intended to be a badge of shame associated with antisemitism.
Fide wikipedia Why yellow? Perhaps because that color is associated with cowardice in that culture. So yes, it's a valid question to ask if yellow is associated more with dignity or shame, and if so, how much. I think I've demonstrated pretty conclusively here that nonsense and illogic are context dependent. But I'm a little more imaginative than you are, so let's try something a little more difficult: How about: :%s/\(0x\)A/\1B/g Nonsense or not? To me, the answer is obvious because I treat nonsense as context-dependent. You, however, have to rely on universals. So, is this nonsensical? If not, how do you make sense of this? I think it's clear that your universals aren't going to be very helpful here. But I can't think of any context where they would be.
It’s nonsense, but it’s only nonsense when you have an idea of sense.
I certainly have an idea of "sense". In fact, I have several.
I wasn’t asking about characters built in to the words themselves, but a physical distance between the two.
On my monitor, they're a bit less than an inch apart. How many more times do we have to do this? You're thinking of contexts where that question doesn't make sense. I can think of contexts where it does make sense. Sense is context-dependent.
You’re not giving an answer to my questions, you’re changing the question and giving an answer to something I didn’t ask.
YES! YOU'VE GOT IT! I'm not changing the words of the question, I'm just changing the context in which those words appear. Depending on the context used, you can expect a sensical answer, a nonsensical answer, both or neither. The words themselves don't have some absolute universal meaning --- the meaning derives from the surrounding context.
But you cannot make a total argument against certainty, you are essentially making an argument that you are certain that certainty doesn’t exist
I thought I had gone out of my way to state that I'm making an argument that I'm nearly-certain absolute certainty doesn't exist. Science doesn't deal in certainty, but it does handle probabilities well. So when I take a measurement I have some sense of how likely it is that the measurement conforms to reality --- I'm not often wrong, but it's happened before. And when I assemble several thousand of those measurements into a hypothesis, I can calculate how certain I am that my hypothesis is correct. But as Descartes observed, there might be some malevolent demon deceiving me, so I can't say (unless I'm speaking informally) that I am absolutely certain. When it comes to things like the earth going around the sun and, yes, evolution, we have such a high degree of certainty that you'd need to invoke an impressive stream of miracles from a deceitful god in order to explain how it could be false, but since we can't rule it out, we can't be absolutely certain.
If you want to say that you’re not certain that you’re not certain, you’re still certain of that much.
Am I certain that I'm uncertain? How would I go about demonstrating that? I don't know that I can. So I think I'm going to remain uncertain about my uncertainty. (Sure, I'm nearly-certain that I'm uncertain, but scientifically I'm not able to say anything more. Yes, I can construct a logical system that will give me certainty, but I can also construct a logical system that preserves uncertainty. As I don't have access to any universal logic, I think (but am not certain) that I'm at an impasse.)
(Reading Lewis might help. I found De Futilitate to be perfectly straightforward. You might want to give it a go.)
I did, remember? And I pointed out that Lewis's argument fails if you're willing to abandon binary truth/falsity in place of a continuum of certainty.
What I’m also saying is that we have no reliable way of knowing any.
You seem to at least know that much.
Philosophical arguments are much more pleasant if goodwill can be assumed. Please read the above as: I am nearly-certain that I have no knowledge of how we can come to know universal truths. I'm also nearly-certain that you have no such knowledge either.BarryR
September 19, 2010
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CH@372 I'd like to stop these exchanges where yet another universal law is proposed and I have to come up with a trivial examples that shows not all systems use the proposed law. I'll give you one more shot.
It’s called logical deduction, used in philosophy, as is modus tollens, modus ponens, maybe you’ve heard of them.
Do you want this to be your final answer? Modus tollens and modus ponens are universal across all systems of reasoning? And if I pull out a textbook (say, white with red borders) that presents a standard system of reasoning that uses neither, will you concede that you're not able to name any such law? Let's not bother with the marginal cases. I want your strongest candidate, and when the strongest candidate is shown to be valid only in particular contexts, I want you to acknowledge this. So, what's your answer?BarryR
September 19, 2010
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Onlookers: It is now clear that this thread is over on the merits. When the reality of floating point arithmetic [basically base-2 scientific notation arithmetic . . . ] is put up as a contradiction to the principles of arithmetic and the self-evidence of things like 2 + 2 = 4, that tells us all we need to know about the red herring distractions that have been used above. Let us just day to that, that the way indices are used in such computations is based on ordinary arithmetic, and the way the significant digits are manipulated is also dependent on ordinary arithmetic. After hundreds of posts, it remains plain that self-evident truths are real, and that those who object to them end up in distractive irrelevancies or outright absurdities. As to why such objections are being made [regardless of cost], 362 above may help us understand. As to the original issue of the thread, that evolutionary materialism has no coherent basis for explaining the origin of consciousness, that is even more plainly unanswered. So, let us understand the bankruptcy of the agendas that have led people to try to justify such irrelevancies and absurdities for hundreds of posts. To sign off, let us remind ourselves: || + || --> |||| 2 + 2 = 4 Good day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 19, 2010
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vividbleau@371
Barry I dont see that the fact that NC is a property of systems means it cant be that NC is a universal law.
You are correct; I misspoke. If NC was a property of every system then it would indeed be a candidate for becoming a universal law. It's the fact that not all systems need be NC that prevents it from being universal.BarryR
September 19, 2010
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SAR, I think what might help you in comprehending the position is this: Your space aliens understand that 2+2=4. For them it is also a self-evident truth. However, the space aliens operate on an entirely different (and alien to us) symbolic system to quantify it. As I mentioned to markf, it's not the symbols we use, which makeup the truth. The symbols are a representation or quantification of the truth. The truth lies outside of the them. In other words, if we humans in our limited intellect had never discovered that 2+2=4, and had never developed a symbolic language to express it, it would no less be true. You're operating on an assumption that truth is not so until we quantify it; which is entirely and demonstrably false. The reason we can even talk about "true" is because it exists whether we recognize it or we don't. We are not the inventors of it. If you don't believe that, then you can't be coherent in any attempt to deny it. If you learned anything in school (and I'm not denying that you did), then you operated on the assumption that there are certain things that are self-evidently true. And if you didn't operate on that assumption, then you learned nothing.CannuckianYankee
September 19, 2010
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BarryR,
…but you can’t seem to name any.
It's called logical deduction, used in philosophy, as is modus tollens, modus ponens, maybe you've heard of them.
2+2=4, not a necessity in all contexts. “Whole is the sum of its parts”, not necessary in all contexts. “Law of causation”, definitely not necessary in all contexts (do integers have a cause?). “Law of non-contradiction”, your computer certainly don’t think is is particularly necessary. Yes, you *can* understand ideas as being logical necessities, just as I can construct an axiomatic system that results in 2+2=147. I can’t think of a reason why reasoning and rational people would prefer either approach.
Yes, you can understand ideas as logical necessities, I'm glad you at least agree with that much, I feel like we're making slow progress, but progress nevertheless. However, as I've said over and over, if any axiom can be made to make 2+2=147, and you're applying this to logic, then nothing is anything in particular, in mathematics or logic, and there would exist no basis for calling anything logical or illogical. You seem to pick and choose from "different" "logical" systems, as you say, depending on how you choose which system to use (first order, second order, etc.), and choosing "axioms" but unless there is a greater logic that these systems borrow from, you can do no comparison between the two, to say that they are themselves logical or illogical, you would only be playing with counters. Indeed, the whole endeavor presupposes a logical system not reducible to them, but of which they are subject. I wasn't asking about anything physical, such as a light beam, in asking how large yellow is, I was asking about the idea, which you cannot get to see nature as ideas, which is part of your problem in refuting Chesterton. I could've just as easily asked how much dignity or shame does yellow have, and how free or tired it is. It's nonsense, but it's only nonsense when you have an idea of sense. But if there were no such beginning, there would be no such end, no answer either way, and I would be perfectly within my own logical system to invent logic to suit my purposes according to your fun grab-bag of logic and mathematics.
How fortuitous that you chose two phrases with exactly the same number of letters. The genetic distance is 13 point mutations (cf “methinks it is like a weasel”).
This is a good example, because what I said with regard to asking how far it is from London Bridge to Christmas Day is just as much nonsense as methinks it is like a weasel was. I wasn't asking about characters built in to the words themselves, but a physical distance between the two. You're not giving an answer to my questions, you're changing the question and giving an answer to something I didn't ask. This is, of course, the only was to proceed in any attempt at making what I asked logical, you have to change what I asked; as if sleight of hand will help you in an argument, which tells me that you're only interested in rhetorical points, which tells me that you're not really interested in real dialogue. I won't participate in this, for future reference.
You and StephenB are the ones claiming that these universal laws exist. I’m happy to believe in them — it would certainly make my life a lot simpler —, but I’d like to know what they are first. The ones that have been suggested so far (except the one I suggested) are entirely context dependent. Nor am I arguing that there is no “right”. I’m making an argument against certainty (which, as a scientist, comes very naturally).
But you cannot make a total argument against certainty, you are essentially making an argument that you are certain that certainty doesn't exist, or at the very least, that you are certain that you aren't certain. If you want to say that you're not certain that you're not certain, you're still certain of that much. This is the same "one-step-removed" process I keep having to reign you in from.
What I’m also saying is that we have no reliable way of knowing any.
You seem to at least know that much.
That’s wordy, so I will from time to time say “No universal laws exist” with the hope that the context will make it clear that this is an epistemic claim consistent with the above, not an ontological claim.
Yes, it is an epistemic claim, one that is a contradiction. I've pointed out this several times now. At this point, I think I just need to accept that you're either not willing or not able to understand this. (Reading Lewis might help. I found De Futilitate to be perfectly straightforward. You might want to give it a go.)Clive Hayden
September 19, 2010
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RE369 Barry I dont see that the fact that NC is a property of systems means it cant be that NC is a universal law. I am not disputing your contention that NC is property of systems I am disputing your conclusion. You have not demonstrated why the NC as a universal law is false if NC is a property of systems. Vividvividbleau
September 19, 2010
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---BarryR: "Non-contradiction is a property of systems, not a universal law." I appreciate your thoughts on this matter. My question, though, persists. Can the planet Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time and under that same formal circumstances.StephenB
September 19, 2010
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vividbleau@366
Barry because NC is a property of systems does this mean NC cannot be a universal law?
Correct, and there are useful systems designed around the idea that contradiction (in controlled doses) is a downright handy thing to have.BarryR
September 19, 2010
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We, as reasoning and rational people, can understand ideas as logical necessities
...but you can't seem to name any. 2+2=4, not a necessity in all contexts. "Whole is the sum of its parts", not necessary in all contexts. "Law of causation", definitely not necessary in all contexts (do integers have a cause?). "Law of non-contradiction", your computer certainly don't think is is particularly necessary. Yes, you *can* understand ideas as being logical necessities, just as I can construct an axiomatic system that results in 2+2=147. I can't think of a reason why reasoning and rational people would prefer either approach.
I guess you’ve never seen a logical deduction, you know, major premise, minor premise, conclusion, modus tollens, modus ponens, etc., and I suppose you’ve never encountered the experience of seeing when one thing logically leads to another.
Nope, I've never seen those used in a universal context. I have, though, seen them applied in the context of several different varieties of mathematics, philosophy and science. That's part of the reason that I conclude they're context-dependent.
Can I determine how large yellow is?
Yes. Why wouldn't you be able to construct a system that does that? It's built into both python and R:
Python 2.6.5 (r265:79063, Apr 16 2010, 13:09:56) [GCC 4.4.3] on linux2 Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> len("yellow") 6
Wow, how about that, here's a context where yellow has dimensionality! Here's another:
An infrared laser diode at 808 nm is used to pump a crystal of neodymium-doped yttrium vanadium oxide (Nd:YVO4) or neodymium-doped yttrium aluminium garnet (Nd:YAG) and induces it to emit at two frequencies (wavelengths of 1064 nm and 1342 nm) simultaneously. This deeper infrared light is then passed through another crystal containing potassium, titanium and phosphorus (KTP), whose non-linear properties generate light at a frequency that is the sum of the two incident beams; in this case corresponding to the wavelength of 593.5 nm ("yellow").
fide wikipedia. Did you notice that you're making an argument from incredulity? You don't know how do determine the size of yellow, thus, based only on your ignorance, no context exists where this could be true. When ignorance is all you have, that's the only argument you can make.
And how far it is from London Bridge to Christmas Day?
How fortuitous that you chose two phrases with exactly the same number of letters. The genetic distance is 13 point mutations (cf "methinks it is like a weasel").
What’s that you say, these are nonsense?
Absolutely, in the context you were thinking of them. In other contexts, they're perfectly reasonable. You might even draw the conclusion from this that "nonsense" is as dependent on context as "truth".
When you remove logic, as with atheism, it’s not that nothing will be believed, it’s that everything will be believed.
I get the impression that I'm using logic far more effectively than you are. I'd hate to remove it, especially since there are so many to choose from. Small correct to the above: everything *can* be believed, not will. When you remove universals, you have to work a bit harder to justify what you believe (as opposed to making an argument from incredulity that something is either "nonsense" or "self-evident"). As I've mentioned elsewhere, the tools I use for this are utility and elegance.
As for your contention that there are no universal truths (as if that’s not attempting to make one)
Cutting and pasting again.... [A] Mathematical laws exist and depend on context, specifically the initial selection of axioms. No context-free laws have been observed, and we know of no way to accurately perceive any that may exist. When speaking informally, I shorten the above to “mathematical laws do not exist”.
you have provided no argument except to say that Descartes got one, at least, but no others, and thence argue as if what StephenB and I say is somehow wrong, as if you have guidance to what is right, while arguing that there is no right
You and StephenB are the ones claiming that these universal laws exist. I'm happy to believe in them --- it would certainly make my life a lot simpler ---, but I'd like to know what they are first. The ones that have been suggested so far (except the one I suggested) are entirely context dependent. Nor am I arguing that there is no "right". I'm making an argument against certainty (which, as a scientist, comes very naturally). At this point, I'm near-certain that you have no access to any universal truths (as opposed to private truth that you want to believe are universal), and so I'm near-certain that you're wrong in any context that I would find useful. To save a few electrons, I'll be shortening this to: I believe you're wrong.
saying that truth is context dependent, is saying that one truth is not context dependent, which is the context dependence on all other truth, and applies to all truth in general, except itself.
The fallacy in the above was addressed by Edmonds (using formal notation and everything). I'm not saying that it's a universal rule that truth is context dependent. Let me repeat that. I'm not saying that it's a universal truth that truth is context dependent. Nor am I saying that universal truths cannot exist. Let me repeat that as well. I am not saying that universal truths cannot exist. What I am saying is that we don't know any (with a possible exception of cogito, which has its own problems). What I'm also saying is that we have no reliable way of knowing any. That's wordy, so I will from time to time say "No universal laws exist" with the hope that the context will make it clear that this is an epistemic claim consistent with the above, not an ontological claim. I've pointed out the distinction several times now. At this point, I think I just need to accept that you're either not willing or not able to understand the difference. (Reading Edmonds might help. I found the paper to be perfectly straightforward. You might want to give it a go.)BarryR
September 19, 2010
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SAR, to try to act as though 2 + 2 = 4 is not a generally and objectively (even, self evidently) true claim because you can choose — unannounced — to write the NUMBER 4 with a different symbol that means the same, whether IV in Latin notation, or 11 in base-3 notation, is to highlight just how diversionary the above arguments are It may be generally and objectively true. However, I made quite clear what system I was working under, where you didn't. So, it certainly wouldn't be self-evident to our alien friend that 2+2=4. He would find you rather nonsensical. :-PSan Antonio Rose
September 19, 2010
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RE 346 "Non-contradiction is a property of systems, not a universal law." Barry because NC is a property of systems does this mean NC cannot be a universal law? Vividvividbleau
September 19, 2010
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