Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Hyperskepticism: The Wrong Side Of A Continuum

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Philosophers and scientists who know their business recognize that any attempt to seek knowledge presupposes the existence of a rational universe ripe for investigating. The fact that we even bother to make the effort says something about our nature. As Aristotle says, “all men by nature want to know.” That is why the discovery of a new fact or truth can be a joy for its own sake. To be sure, knowledge also provides practical benefits, empowering us to pursue a self-directed life style, but it also edifies us, leading us on the road to self-actualization. To be intellectually healthy is to be curious.

On the other hand, we can, by virtue of our free will, act against our natural desire to know. For better or worse, there are some truths that many of us would prefer not to know about. The compelling nature of an objective fact can pull us in one direction while the force of our personal desires can pull us in the opposite direction. When this happens, a choice must be made. “Either the thinker conforms desire to truth or he conforms truth to desire.”–E. Michael Jones

Because we experience this ambivalence about the truth, we must be on guard against two errors: (a) talking ourselves out of things that we should believe [hyperskepticism] or (b) talking ourselves into things that we should not believe [gullibility]. Hyperskeptics attempt to justify the first error by calling attention to the second error, as if there was no reasonable alternative to either extreme. On the contrary, the ideal solution is to seek a rational midpoint –to balance a healthy skepticism about unconfirmed truth claims with a healthy confidence in truths already known. The one thing a thinker should not do is be skeptical or open-minded about the first principles of right reason, without which there is no standard for investigating or discoursing about anything “Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.”– G. K. Chesterton

In the spirit of public service, then, I present this little test for analyzing our readers’ proclivity for hyperskepticism. Hopefully, those who indulge will not find any predictable patterns, since I strove to keep them at a minimum.

Yes or No

[1] Can we know anything about the real world?

In asking this question, I am probing for your orientation on the matter of external facts with respect to our internal experience. Can we really know if such a thing as a tree exists, or is it the case that we simply experience mental representations of something that may not be a tree at all? [Reminiscent of Kant’s hyperskepticism]

[2] If the answer to [1] is no, is it, under those circumstances, possible to conduct rational investigations or participate in rational discourse?

If I can feel the experience of something that seems like a tree, without knowing that it is a tree, or if I am just using words to describe my experience, can I use my reason to draw other meaningful conclusions about the world? In other words, can I, absent a knowable external reality, reason not just validly [with internal consistency] but also soundly [align my understanding with the truth of things]?

True or False

[3] The law of non-contradiction [a thing cannot be and not be at the same time] is not a self-evident truth.

Inasmuch as scientific progress has demonstrated that Aristotle was wrong about the four basic elements of the earth, it is not unreasonable to suggest that he was also wrong about his so-called laws of logic.

[4] The law of causality is a self-evident truth.

I can accept this proposition unconditionally, not only as a second law of logic, but also as an intellectual companion to the first law of logic? Put another way, if a thing cannot be and not be at the same time, that fact influences or informs the law that nothing can come into existence without a cause. There is a logical connection between the claim that Jupiter cannot both exist and not exist and the claim that it cannot come into existence without a cause?

[5] Our knowledge of the real world is reliable but imperfect.

We may not know everything there is to know about a tree, but we do know that something is there that we call a tree and that it is more than just a collection of parts–something that exhibits “treeness.”

[6] A finite whole can be less than any one of its parts.

A crankcase can, in some cases, be greater than the automobile of which it is a part.

[7] The universe is ordered.

Material objects move in such a way as to indicate some kind of function or purpose.

[8] The universe may be ordered to a purpose, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it needed an intelligence to do the ordering or establish the purpose.

Purpose can exist without intelligence.

[9] The universe is, indeed, ordered, but that doesn’t mean that its order is synchronized with our mind’s logic.

The mind’s logic [if it’s raining, the streets will get wet] may be inconsistent with the order of the universe [If it’s raining, the streets may not necessarily get wet.] The proposition that there is an unfailing correspondence between the logic our rational minds and ordering of the rational universe is something that should be demonstrated through evidence and cannot be reasonably accepted as a “self-evident truth.”

[10] There can be more than one truth?

Each specialized branch of knowledge can have its own brand of truth, and that truth may well be incompatible with truths found in other specialized areas.

[11] In some cases, a cause can give more than it has to give.

Something can come to exist in the effect that was not first present in the cause. It may well be, for example, that an immaterial mind could emerge from matter even though matter has no raw materials containing anything like immaterial mental substances.

12-20, Yes, No, or I don’t know.

[12] Does truth exist?

Is truth absolute, not relative–objective, not subjective–universal, not contextual–and indivisible, not many?

[13] Is there such a thing as the natural moral law?

Is there an objective standard of right and wrong that we [humans] did not invent [or socially construct] and to which we are morally obliged to follow in spite of our personal preferences or in spite of public opinion?

[14] Does the human conscience exist?

Do we, as humans, possess some kind of inborn instinct that makes us feel bad about ourselves when we do something wrong and feel good about ourselves when we do something right. Can that same conscience be habitually silenced and ignored to the point at which it stops sending signals?

[15] Is design detectable?

Can we discern the presence of intelligence from the biological and cosmological patterns found in nature? Can we discover the presence of intelligence from patterns found in human artifacts even if we know nothing about the history of those artifacts? Can minds detect the activity of other minds?

[16] Does God exist?

Is there a personal, omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, self-existent God who created the universe and all the creatures that inhabit it?

[17] Is God organic with the universe?

Could God and the universe be one and the same thing?

[18] Can matter investigate itself?

In order for a scientist or a philosopher to investigate the universe or the world, must he exist as a substance of a different kind than the object of his study? Are two such realms of existence really necessary, or can the relationship between the investigator and the object of investigation be explained from a monistic framework.

[19] Evidence can speak for itself; it need not be interpreted by or mediated through the rules of right reason.

Science can stand alone. It needs no metaphysical foundations in order to be rational.

[20] Ask yourself this question: Do I have free will?

Do I have something to say about my fate? Can I say that I could have made choices other than the ones that I did make, or that I could have created outcomes different than the ones I did create? Do I have the power to act contrary to my nature, predisposition, desires, and appetites?

True/ False

[21] If the ordered universe is synchronized with the laws of logic, it could be a coincidence.

Even if we do have “rational” minds, and even if they do correspond to a “rational universe,” there is no reason to suggeset that it had to be set up by something or someone. It could just be that way.

[22] Theistic Darwinism is a reasonable hypothesis.

A purposeful, mindful God may well have used a purposeless, mindless process to create humans.

[23] A universe can come into existence without a cause.

Not all effects require causes. Further, some things that are often characterized as effects, such as our universe, may not really be effects at all. Even if it does, itself, act as a cause, the physical universe could be, but need not be, the result of a prior cause.

[24] Unguided evolution is a reasonable hypothesis.

There is no reason to believe that humans could not emerge as a lucky accident from solely naturalistic forces.

[25] Cause and effect can occur without a first cause.

Granted, a cause/effect chain exists in nature, but that fact alone does not compel us to posit that only a first cause or causeless cause can explain

Comments
fg "However, nothing in the assumption that everything that exists (within the universe) has a cause, except the universe itself, causes absurdity." I find the concept that something ( the universe)began to exist before it existed to be absurd to the max. Vividvividbleau
October 16, 2010
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Stephen, none of your examples in 230 are like the statement "all events have a cause". And you write, "You continue to labor under the impression that the laws of logic are not in correspondence to the ordering of the universe." I've discussed that subject a number of times, explaining the difference between the laws of logic themselves and the application of them through a model, and I've explained that sometimes the model doesn't work and then we have to refine the model, and I've given examples. You have never responded to this point, so I don't see much sense in retyping the same ideas again. See 169, 171. 184, and 198.Aleta
October 16, 2010
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Faded_Glory answers me in 221: "You must be joking, right? This whole debate is about whether or not your first premise is true or not. If you start with the assumption that it is, of course it is trivial to demonstrate that its negation is invalid." - - Maybe you formulated your question in 218 wrongly but you specifically asked: - - How does adopting the axiom “all things that begin to exist have a cause, except the Universe” instead of “all things that begin to exist have a cause, no exceptions allowed” lead to absurdity? - - I demonstrated that if you based your worldview on the first syllogism you would be living with a formally invalid axiom and as such logically absurd view of reality. You should have formulated the syllogism as follows: 1. Universe's beginning didn't have a cause 2. Thus not all things that begin to exists have a cause Or 1. Universe's beginning didn't have a cause 2. All things that begin to exists have a cause 3. Thus universe didn't begin to exists Or 1. All things that begin to exists within universe are caused 2. Universe was not caused The last syllogism is demonstratively false however because "within universe" clause does not help in any way. This is because immediately after the birth of the universe there would necessarily be uncaused events within the universe. Following that chain of unfolding all events would be necessarily and ultimately uncaused from that singularity if there are no new causal chains introduced to the universe. It's also easy to notice that uncaused universe premise is completely arbitrary and without supporting evidence.Innerbling
October 16, 2010
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@230. The laws of logic are in correspondence [with] the ordering of the universe.StephenB
October 16, 2010
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---Aleta: "The proposition that all events have immediate, proximate causes is a statement about our universe, and like all empirically testable statements, all we can do is gather evidence to confirm it – we can’t prove that it is 100% true." You continue to labor under the impression that the laws of logic are not in correspondence to the ordering of the universe. The statement that a thing cannot exist and not exist at the same time is also a statement about our universe. That is why I asked you if Jupiter [a planet in the real world] can exist and not exist at the same time. Do you think that such a proposition can be subjected to an empirical test? In keeping with that point, you obviously do not understand the relationship between the fact that something cannot exist before it exists [a corollary of guestion 4] and the fact that it cannot exist and not exist at the same time [question 3]. If you did understand that relationship, you would not suggest that one principle applies to the real world while the other does not. I have posted 25 points, all of which are related. In the present discussion, questions 3, 4, 7, 9, 10, and 21 are all at issue. In order to grasp the subject matter, you must cast your net much wider.StephenB
October 16, 2010
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---fadedglory: :I fully agree that a poor choice of axioms can lead to absurdity, such as obvious discrepancies with reality (assuming we all subscribe to the axiom that there is a reality)." Show me how a poor choice of axioms leads to absurdity [without appealing to first principles, of course].StephenB
October 16, 2010
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It is also interesting to note that since they have encoded information onto the wave state of a photon:,,, Ultra-Dense Optical Storage - on One Photon Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image's worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact. http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html ,,,,And that a photon is not only defined as infinite information but can be encoded, in principle, with infinite information,,,,: Single photons to soak up data: Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201 ,,, then the cause of the wave collapse of photons to each unique point of observation in the universe must possess complete mastery of the infinite information for each photon of energy in order to 'cause' the wave state to collapse in coherent fashion to each 'observer'. ,,, Not a easy task for finite beings such as ourselves to comprehend, but is exactly as such control as we would expect for a infinitely powerful God who is completely transcendent of time and space.,,, By the way,, I have no problem acknowledging the one who possesses such power as to sustain the universe in such coordinated fashion to each individual observer as well as related to the whole of the universe, as Almighty God!!! That's My King! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upGCMl_b0n4bornagain77
October 16, 2010
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No need to be snarky, Stephen. The proposition that all events have immediate, proximate causes is a statement about our universe, and like all empirically testable statements, all we can do is gather evidence to confirm it - we can't prove that it is 100% true. In fact, as we have been discussing (although I know you don't agree), both quantum events and acts of free will (to some) may be exceptions to the statement. Would you care to respond to the substance of my comments?Aleta
October 16, 2010
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FG: I am busy elsewhere right now [with a constiuttional crisis], so I do not have further time for a long exchange. I would appreciate it if you would stop from erecting a strawman. One does not reason TO first principles, one reasons FROM them, and as I already pointed out -- but you plainly ignored -- one notes that their denial leads to absurdity, so we have good reason to start from them. Given that problem of reductio ad absurdum, not all sets of "axioms" are equal. those axioms that reject the FPRR end in absurdities, as I showed earloier this morning. Can you kindly provide an instance of something that began to exist that has neither necessary nor contributing nor sufficient causal factors? That is, something that comes out of nowhere, and nothing, for no reason, and yet BEGINS to exist? I citred a key current example of the absurdities that result form practically trying to assert such, Mr Hawking and his M-Theory speculations. He ends in the absurdity of implying that his M-theory supercosmos is "nothing." I also coted two typical furter examples commonly seen at UD, radioactive events and the wider quantum events they exemplify. Those who assert that such events happen without cause as a rule show themselves, sad to say, ignorant of what "cause" means, and of what effects and phenomena are. One can posit any set of axioms one wishes, i.e. one is free to have a worldview of one's choice. However, when that worldview ends in absurdities because it defies those self-evident truths that are first principles of right reason, we who look on are entitled to see that such proposed alte5rnative axioms end in self-referential incoherence, i.e. absurdity. Such worldviews, objectively, are irrational. Yes, first principles of right reason are insufficient in themselves to specify the details of a reasonable set of worldview first plausibles, But they are more than enough to cut a wide swath through the weeds of the contemporary marketplace of ideas. (Onlookers, cf my previously linked to see why -- and observe that FG has precisely not grappled with the specifics.) G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
October 16, 2010
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Yet, We can somewhat reason to the first cause for the universe: In quantum teleportation we have the transcendent entity of information being shown to be independent of space-time, matter-energy. Moreover we have this transcendent information exercising direct dominion of matter-energy regardless of space-time considerations. Stephen C. Meyer - Evolution vs. Information - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OnoD7ZRo3o Quantum Teleportation - IBM Research Page Excerpt: "it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,," http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ Unconditional Quantum Teleportation - abstract Excerpt: This is the first realization of unconditional quantum teleportation where every state entering the device is actually teleported,, http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/282/5389/706 Thus, Quantum teleportation is direct empirical validation for the primary tenet of the Law of Conservation of Information (i.e. 'transcendent' information cannot be created or destroyed). This conclusion is warranted because information exercises direct dominion of energy, telling energy exactly what to be and do in the experiment. Thus, this experiment provides a direct line of logic that transcendent information cannot be created or destroyed and, in information demonstrating transcendence, and dominion, of space-time and matter-energy, becomes the only known entity that can satisfactorily explain where all energy came from as far as the origination of the universe is concerned. That is infinite transcendent information is the only known entity which can explain where each and every the 'specified' photon energy came from in the Big Bang without leaving the bounds of empirical science as the postulated multiverse does, and is certainly much more satisfactory than saying nothing caused the universe. Clearly anything that exercises dominion of the fundamental entity of this physical universe, a photon of energy, as transcendent information does in teleportation, must of necessity possess the same, as well as greater, qualities as energy does possess in the first law of thermodynamics (i.e. Energy cannot be created or destroyed by any known material means according to the first law). To reiterate, since information exercises dominion of energy in quantum teleportation then all information that can exist, for all past, present and future events of energy, already must exist. ,,, Another way to reason to 'transcendent information' being the first cause is to realize that 'infinite' transcendent information is the mathematical definition of a photon: Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf further notes: Reflections on the 'infinite transcendent information' framework: The weight of mass becomes infinite at the speed of light, thus mass will never go the speed of light. As well, mass would disappear from our sight if it could go the speed of light, because, from our non-speed of light perspective, distance in direction of travel will shrink to zero for the mass going the speed of light, whereas conversely, if mass could travel at the speed of light its size will stay the same while all other frames of reference not traveling the speed of light will disappear from its sight. Special Relativity - Time Dilation and Length Contraction - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSRIyDfo_mY For us to hypothetically travel at the speed of light, in this universe, only gets us to first base as far as quantum entanglement, or teleportation, are concerned. That is to say, traveling at the speed of light only gets us to the place where time, as we understand it, comes to complete stop for light, i.e. gets us to the eternal, 'past and future folding into now', framework of time. This higher dimension 'eternal' inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not 'frozen within time' yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light. "I've just developed a new theory of eternity." Albert Einstein "The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass." – Richard Swenson Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182 Also, hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be instantaneous travel for the person going at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for them, but, and this is a big but; this 'timeless' travel is still not instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework of time, i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference, is still not completely transcendent of our framework since light appears to take time to travel from our perspective. In information teleportation though the 'time not passing', eternal, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but also in our temporal framework. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of information is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks, not just the speed of light framework. Information teleportation/travel is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us. Thus 'pure transcendent information' is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we have now examined; transcendent, eternal, infinite information is indeed real and the framework in which 'It' resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can exist, (in so far as our limited perception of a primary reality, highest dimension, can be discerned). "An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality" Akiane - Child Prodigy - Music video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4204586 Logic also dictates 'a decision' must have been made, by the 'transcendent, eternal, infinite information' from the primary timeless (eternal) reality 'It' inhabits, in order to purposely create a temporal reality with highly specified, irreducible complex, parameters from a infinite set of possibilities in the proper sequential order. Thus this infinite transcendent information, which is the primary reality of our reality, is shown to be alive by yet another line of evidence besides the findings of quantum mechanics. The First Cause Must Be A Personal Being - William Lane Craig - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4813914 as well: As a side light to this, leading quantum physicist Anton Zeilinger has followed in John Archibald Wheeler's footsteps (1911-2008) by insisting reality, at its most foundational level, is 'information'. "It from bit symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom - at a very deep bottom, in most instances - an immaterial source and explanation; that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses; in short, that things physical are information-theoretic in origin." John Archibald Wheeler Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word." Anton Zeilinger - a leading expert in quantum teleportation: http://www.metanexus.net/Magazine/ArticleDetail/tabid/68/id/8638/Default.aspx The restriction imposed by our physical limitations of us ever accessing complete infinite information to our temporal space-time framework/dimension (Wheeler; Zeilinger) does not detract, in any way, from the primacy and dominion of the infinite transcendent information framework that is now established by the quantum teleportation experiment as the primary reality of our reality. Of note: All of this evidence meshes extremely well with the theistic postulation of God possessing infinite and perfect knowledge. etc.. etc...bornagain77
October 16, 2010
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--Aleta: "but the statement that all events have immediate proximate causes is a statement about the world that can be, in theory, tested, and thus is testable: it is not a “principle of right reason.” I asked: Please tell me how you can test the proposition that all events have immediate proximate causes ---"We can’t test that all events have such causes." You are starting to show signs if life.StephenB
October 16, 2010
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Excellent post, fg. What we need in this world is an understanding that there are different ways at looking at the world that cannot be sorted into right and wrong, and then move on to looking at more immediate things we do or do not agree about and figuring out how to deal with those differences.Aleta
October 16, 2010
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Kairosfocus, you are the next in line who tries to reason towards the law that all things that begin have a caue, and predictably, you fail as well. It seems that only StephenB has the correct understanding, namely that this is an axiom, a subjective assumption made without supporting reasoning or evidence, on which the rest of our thinking is based (along with a number of other axioms). I fully agree that a poor choice of axioms can lead to absurdity, such as obvious discrepancies with reality (assuming we all subscribe to the axiom that there is a reality). However, nothing in the assumption that everything that exists (within the universe) has a cause, except the universe itself, causes absurdity. Unless perhaps, we count the way so many contributors here get their panties in a twist about this as an absurdity. (that was a gentle joke, Clive. I hope you'll forgive me). Gents, you have to face it - it is quite legitimate for different people to base their reasoning on different axiomatic assumptions than you do, and there is nothing you can bring to bear to show that they are incorrect. Even someone who claims that the world, the entire universe, the entirety of existence, was created only last Thursday cannot be shown to be incorrect. Most people wouldn't know what to do with such a person, few would agree with them, but there is no way to prove they got it wrong. A more interesting topic might be, how do we deal with the situation that different people can legitimately base their reasoning on different axioms, without anyone being able to demonstrate who is right and who is wrong? One way is to resort to denigration and name calling. Are there other ways? fGfaded_Glory
October 16, 2010
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Innerbling: Syllogism: 1. All things that begin to exists have a cause 2. Universe’s beginning didn’t have a cause 3. All things that begin to exists don’t have a cause Third premise follows necessarily from 2. and is negation of 1. and thus the syllogism fails. The axiom “all things that begin to exist have a cause, except the universe” is formally invalid. --------------------- You must be joking, right? This whole debate is about whether or not your first premise is true or not. If you start with the assumption that it is, of course it is trivial to demonstrate that its negation is invalid. Now, do us a favour, and show via a syllogism that your first premise is true. I would be very interested to see that, and so would StephenB, I'm sure, who has repeatedly assured us that one cannot reason towards such a law. fGfaded_Glory
October 16, 2010
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FG: Re:How does adopting the axiom “all things that begin to exist have a cause, except the Universe” instead of “all things that begin to exist have a cause, no exceptions allowed” lead to absurdity? 1 --> Do you not recognise that the universe is precisely "All matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole" [AmHD, 2009]? 2 --> Do you not therefore see that -- as SB pointed out near the top of the thread -- by making an exception of the universe, the exception immediately becomes every case, swallowing up the rule? 3 --> Furthermore, one imagines that as an educated person you have a passing acquaintance with mathematical reasoning. So, you know or should know, that in many mathematical cases, the inference is that when an assumption leads to absurdity, it should be denied. Thus, int he wider context, we see the same approach: when rejecting a principle leads to absurdity, it is reasonable to accept he principle. 4 --> In the case of he principle that that which BEGINS to exist or may cease from existing has a cause, it is the same as saying that something does not come from nothing. No space, no time, no energy, no matter, no intelligence. NOTHING, not a smuggled-in something. 5 --> In the case of Mr Hawkings' recent regrettable blunder, he imagined that physical laws can exist without the physical entities that behave in an orderly way. 6 --> More precisely, he was inferring to the metaphysical [raw, speculative philosophical] postulate -- there is no empirical evidence -- of a multiverse. Wiki inadvertently brings this out:
M-theory is an extension of string theory in which 11 dimensions are identified. Because the dimensionality exceeds the dimensionality of superstring theories in 10 dimensions, it is believed that the 11-dimensional theory unites all five string theories (and supersedes them). Though a full description of the theory is not yet known, the low-entropy dynamics are known to be supergravity interacting with 2- and 5-dimensional membranes. This idea is the unique supersymmetric theory in eleven dimensions, with its low-entropy matter content and interactions fully determined, and can be obtained as the strong coupling limit of type IIA string theory because a new dimension of space emerges as the coupling constant increases . . . . M-theory (and string theory) has been criticized for lacking predictive power or being untestable. Further work continues to find mathematical constructs that join various surrounding theories. New formulations are proposed to join many theoretic situations (usually by exploiting string theoretic dualities). Witten has suggested that a general formulation of M-theory will probably require the development of new mathematical language. However, the tangible success of M-theory can be questioned, given its current incompleteness and limited predictive power, even after so many years of intense research.
7 --> It is worth citing the same source in another article to elaborate on supergravity just a bit, as damaging admissions against interest are ever so telling:
a supergravity theory contains a spin-2 field whose quantum is the graviton. Supersymmetry requires the graviton field to have a superpartner. This field has spin 3/2 and its quantum is the gravitino. The number of gravitino fields is equal to the number of supersymmetries. Supergravity theories are often said to be the only consistent theories of interacting massless spin 3/2 fields
8 --> In short, Hawking is in fact precisely not drawing everything out of nothing, he is postulating an unobserved, unobservable [untestable] primordial matrix in which our observed sub-cosmos emerges by some sort of quantum fluctuation or the like. 9 --> It is worth pausing to highlight that we have three or four general patterns of causal factors: necessary, sufficient, necessary and sufficient, contributory. A fire requires the necessary and sufficient set: fuel, oxidiser, heat. Each contributes, each is necessary, the three are jointly sufficient. AND, IF SOMETHING HAS A NECESSARY CAUSAL FACTOR AT WORK AS A CONTRIBUTION, IT IS NOT UNCAUSED. 10 --> Why is that? Simple: if you remove a necessary contributing factor, the effect is blocked. 11 --> No fuel, no fire, for instance. And, in the case of Hawking, no underlying M-cosmos with its laws, no emerging observed cosmos. Just so, no unstable nucleus, no radioactive decay [which shows that a random, quantum based process is NOT acausal]. And so on. 12 --> thus, we see just how absurd the notion of something [and in this case a whole universe] coming from nothing is. 13 --> Indeed, those who assert it find themselves in the absurdity of postulating a very big and powerful something [a multiverse], which they then label as "nothing." A crude self-contradiction, asserting A and NOT_A in the same sense of A. 14 --> And if you would deny this principle, understand the force of its logic: if a thing may and may not be in the same sense, time and place etc, then we have demolished all distinction. the apostle Paul aptly describes the resulting chaos of confusion:
1 Cor 14: 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?
15 --> So, indeed, the first principles of right reason are the undeniable basis on which we can do anything that requires reason. 16 --> To try to deny them lands us in absurdity, absurdity that is immediately evident on understanding the principles and seeing what happens when one -- one who lives in and experiences the world as a conscious, intelligent, enconscienced creature -- denies them. 17 --> To help clear the air, I strongly suggest beginning with Warranted Credible truth no 1: error exists. 18 --> Try to deny it. Immediately, you entail that either the original claim was an error, or else the attempted denial will be an error. In either case, you have provided an example of an error. So, we immediately see that error exists is undeniably true and self-evident as a consequence. 19 --> And so forth. Selective hyperskepticism that tries to deny the self-evident stature of first principles of right reason, lands in absurdity. 20 --> Including (as shown) the attempted denial of the principle of causality. ___________________ Back to my constitution crisis . . . GEM of TKIkairosfocus
October 16, 2010
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Faded_glory insists in 218 that the axiom "all things that begin to exist have a cause, except the universe" doesn't lead to contradictions. Syllogism: 1. All things that begin to exists have a cause 2. Universe's beginning didn't have a cause 3. All things that begin to exists don't have a cause Third premise follows necessarily from 2. and is negation of 1. and thus the syllogism fails. The axiom "all things that begin to exist have a cause, except the universe" is formally invalid.Innerbling
October 16, 2010
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StephenB says, as quoted by Aleta: The first principles of right reason, as I have often stated, cannot be tested for validity or reasonableness. THEY ARE THE TEST FOR VALIDITY AND REASONABLENESS. We do not reason our way TO them; we reason our way FROM them. The are self-evident truths, not so much because they are always immediately evident, but rather because, upon reflection, it becomes obvious that denying them leads to absurdity. --------------------- How does adopting the axiom "all things that begin to exist have a cause, except the Universe" instead of "all things that begin to exist have a cause, no exceptions allowed" lead to absurdity? As you say, we have no way to reason to this axiom, or to demonstrate it empirically. If we rule out special relevation, the only way to decide between these is if one leads to absurdity and the other one does not. Please show us the absurdity, StephenB.faded_Glory
October 15, 2010
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Stephen writes, "Please tell me how you can test the proposition that all events have immediate proximate causes." We can't test that all events have such causes. We can look at the history of human knowledge and find that looking for immediate proximate causes has been a very successful enterprise, and that places where people once thought that things were caused by some kind of uncaused agent (demons or spirits, for instance), or happened spontaneously (flies coming into existence), have been shown to have causal explanations. So it's a very strong inductive conclusion, based on at least 500 years of pretty steady investigation, that we live in a causally connected universe.Aleta
October 15, 2010
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---Aleta: "However, statements about causes are different than purely logical statements: ~(P and ~P) may be a principle of right reason, but the statement that all events have immediate proximate causes is a statement about the world that can be, in theory, tested, and thus is testable: it is not a “principle of right reason.” Please tell me how you can test the proposition that all events have immediate proximate causes.StephenB
October 15, 2010
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Green @213. I answered your question @110. Also, your statement that "libertarians themselves all agree that libertarian free will requires causeless events" is false. I am not going to embarrass you by asking you to support your claim because I already know that you cannot.StephenB
October 15, 2010
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Green writes, "How can the law of causality be true, and yet agents also be able to initiate novel chains of cause and effect." I wondered about this very question in a previous thread about free will with Stephen. I claimed that acts of free will were little "local" uncaused causes, and that the law of causality was violated by our acts of free will. He claimed this didn't violate the law of causality, but since then I have found out that he had been lumping a variety of types of causes (efficient, first, final, etc.) all into one category. So there is a possibility that the world is constantly changed by new uncaused causes, both in the free will acts of human beings and in the quantum events at the smallest scale. This would mean that far from being determined causally, the world is subject to a continuous stream of non-determined events which leads it down a unique, contingent path.Aleta
October 15, 2010
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Perhaps my question is clearer when put this way: How can the law of causality be true, and yet agents also be able to initiate novel chains of cause and effect (as in libertarianism)?Green
October 15, 2010
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Sorry, the reference from the quote above is: http://www.indiana.edu/~scotus/files/Agent_Causation.pdfGreen
October 15, 2010
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Green
October 15, 2010
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Hi StephenB. I know you've a lot of comments to respond to here. I was wondering, though, if you would be able to comment on my last post @ # 120? My point was that an unmoved mover is by definition an uncaused cause. Thus if unmoved movers exist - as libertarians claim they do - then the law of causality is necessarily false. Proponents of libertarianism themselves all agree that libertarian free will requires causeless events. O'Connor, for example, writes that:
... no answer could be given to the question of what was the cause of a given agent-causal event, and hence that the question is ill-framed, resulting from a failure to understand the peculiar nature of such an event... So it seems that the libertarian may acknowledge without embarassment that events of this type are uncaused.
So I am wondering how you think both can be true. Specifically, how can unmoved movers, or 'only partially moved movers' (since no-one denies that agents are influenced by things), exist, and yet the law of causality also be true?Green
October 15, 2010
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Aleta,
Another way to look at is this: the statement that the world follows the law of nature is Platonic – the language implies that the laws are in charge, but it is more correct to say that the laws follow nature – they are just descriptions of the regular behavior of the world component parts, and it’s the reality of those component parts that comes first, and is primary.
I know you see it that way, but that is putting the cart before the horse. Without an ability of understanding first, there is no external world; the external world relies on its existence in our understanding to our powers of inference first, not vice versa. You remove the ability to infer first, and you remove the external world. The external world is an inferred world.Clive Hayden
October 15, 2010
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Hi Clive. You write, " We call these physical events “laws” only because they repeat. But this is just a description, not an explanation, as we have real explanations with metaphysical reality." I'll agree with the former, and disagree with the latter. As Newton famously pointed out, we don't need additional metaphysical explanations in order to have useful scientific descriptions. If things happen with regularity, and can be described with mathematical precision, we then can call that regularity a law. There is a possibility that one moment does not cause the next, but rather that each moment is being caused by some God in a logical fashion so that it just looks like one moment causes the next. But like many such possibilities, there is no reason to believe it and it adds nothing to our understanding, and so I'm willing to believe that if the world appears to have causal connections between the moments, then that's the way we'll describe it. Doing so seems to work pretty well. But I don't think we have "real explanations of metaphysical reality" at all. I think we have abstract logical systems about symbols, but they don't explain anything by themselves, and they aren't metaphysical. You write, "The only way that the external world is even made intelligible as an external world is through the powers of logic and reason to begin with. If you remove the powers of inference, that is, of arranging the sensory stimuli into a coherent picture, the external world disappears all together. If you remove logic, you remove the external world. It is only through metaphysical reality, that is, metaphysical laws of reason and logic, which don’t themselves physically exist, that there exists an external reality at all, and only then we can even begin to describe external reality." This is the classic Platonic view, but I am not a Platonist - I don't believe that the laws of logic exist in some immaterial metaphysical realm. I agree that we have the apparatus to "arrange the sensory stimuli into a coherent picture," and that our brain/mind manifests basic laws of logic and math in our understanding of the world. But, and this is the class Platonic/non-Platonic disagreement, you think that logic and math are metaphysically real, and are prior to (and in some sense superior to) physical reality, and I believe that the nature of physical reality comes first, and that our understanding of math and logic are part of our biological nature which has emerged out of the physical world. Another way to look at is this: the statement that the world follows the law of nature is Platonic - the language implies that the laws are in charge, but it is more correct to say that the laws follow nature - they are just descriptions of the regular behavior of the world component parts, and it's the reality of those component parts that comes first, and is primary. A philosopher professor, a friend of mine, once described it this way: you see goats going up the mountainside, and you note the the goats follow the path, much as you note that nature follows laws. But who made the path! The goats did! The path exists because the goats acted in a regular way - the path is an expression of the goats nature in the same way the the laws of nature, including logic and math, are expressions of the nature of physical reality. Needless to say, I don't think there is any way for us to resolve this issue empirically, but I am arguing for the non-Platonic view here.Aleta
October 15, 2010
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Aleta, My point in asking the question of whether it is logically impossible that a bird would give live birth instead of laying eggs is to illustrate the point that we do not see the natural world nor understand its inner synthesis of why one thing leads to another logically, as we do things that don't physically exist, metaphysical laws, such as mathematics and laws of logic, and I would add morality. With metaphysical laws, we can understand why one things logically leads to another, we do not have the equivalent insight with any two things connected physically, that is, one thing following another, in nature. We call these physical events "laws" only because they repeat. But this is just a description, not an explanation, as we have real explanations with metaphysical reality. Mathematics doesn't require a physical entity represented by it in order to do mathematics. For an obvious and simple illustration, there is no physical object to represent that square root of 2, nor negative numbers, nor infinity, nor the continuing decimal of pi, etc. The only way that the external world is even made intelligible as an external world is through the powers of logic and reason to begin with. If you remove the powers of inference, that is, of arranging the sensory stimuli into a coherent picture, the external world disappears all together. If you remove logic, you remove the external world. It is only through metaphysical reality, that is, metaphysical laws of reason and logic, which don't themselves physically exist, that there exists an external reality at all, and only then we can even begin to describe external reality.Clive Hayden
October 15, 2010
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Stephen writes, "Of course, you have really taken three positions: [a]the law of causality admits of no exceptions [b] the law causality may admit of some exceptions [c] the law of causality is an arbitrarily devised axiom and does not or may not always apply to the real world" It is true that during our discussion earlier in the thread I said I accepted the law of causality in our material world. I did not mention the quuantum mechanics aspects because 1) I was discussing the world of macro events as we experience them, and bring up quantum events would have distracted from the major topic of emergence, and 2) I didn't wanted to stimulate a jillion links to posts on wave collapse by bornagain. :) And I certainly don't think the law of causality is "an arbitrarily devised axiom": it accurately states a fact that we (mankind in general) have continued to confirm time and time again. People used to believe that aspects of nature were personified, and could act whimsically, but now we understand how deeply embedded causality is in how the world works. This doesn't mean that classic, efficient causality has to work "all the way down", so to speak. It may not apply to the wolrd of quantum events. Support for this view is based on empirical evidence, and if the world turns out be be different than our classical conceptions hold it to be, then so be it. As is sometimes stated around here, we need to follow the evidence wherever it leads, and it may lead to the conclusion that at the very foundation of the physical world, there is an uncaused, random element. If so, as Feynman says, we need to give up our previous conceptions and accept the reality of the situation. This doesn't mean that we give up the notion of causality, or that our notions are arbitrary or whimsical: it just means we have to be able to discriminate among situations where different ideas about how things are caused are applied. Also, Stephen writes, "The first principles of right reason, as I have often stated, cannot be tested for validity or reasonableness. THEY ARE THE TEST FOR VALIDITY AND REASONABLENESS. We do not reason our way TO them; we reason our way FROM them. The are self-evident truths, not so much because they are always immediately evident, but rather because, upon reflection, it becomes obvious that denying them leads to absurdity." Yes, you've said that - no need to shout. However, statements about causes are different than purely logical statements: ~(P and ~P) may be a principle of right reason, but the statement that all events have immediate proximate causes is a statement about the world that can be, in theory, tested, and thus is testable: it is not a "principle of right reason."Aleta
October 15, 2010
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---Aleta: "We are not talking about the birth of the universe." We are talking about the birth of anything. ---"And my position on quantum events is based on evidence – not personal whim: they appear to be probabilistic, not determined by any antecedent." Appear? The moon appears to be closer to me than my streetlight. The sun appears to me as larger than the Andromeda galaxy. Evidence must be interpreted through the rules of right reason. Your position is based on a specific interpretaion of the evidence, not just the evidence. Here is another one of my questions that the hyperskeptics avoided: [19] "Evidence can speak for itself; it need not be interpreted by or mediated through the rules of right reason. Science can stand alone. It needs no metaphysical foundations in order to be rational." Hyperskeptics do not understand the metaphysical foundations for science or, as is usually the case, do not even know they exist. That is why some of them get on the Larry King show and make irrational claims about self-creating universes. ---"And I offered two scenarios: that they are truly random, or that they are caused by some metaphysical reality, and I did not say (because I don’t know) which of those two I think is most likely." If you are open to the possibility that quantum events are not caused, then you obviously do not believe that causality is a law, which would contradict your earlier claims. Of course, you have really taken three positions: [a]the law of causality admits of no exceptions [b] the law causality may admit of some exceptions [c] the law of causality is an arbitrarily devised axiom and does not or may not always apply to the real world ---"I assume that you believe quantum events are caused by something. Any idea what, and any way to test your idea? Are you open to the idea that each one is an expression of God’s will?" One of the function of reason's rules is to stay reasonable when the necessary facts are not available. I don't know what causes quantum events, but I can reasonably insist that they are, indeed, caused. The first principles of right reason, as I have often stated, cannot be tested for validity or reasonableness. THEY ARE THE TEST FOR VALIDITY AND REASONABLENESS. We do not reason our way TO them; we reason our way FROM them. The are self-evident truths, not so much because they are always immediately evident, but rather because, upon reflection, it becomes obvious that denying them leads to absurdity.StephenB
October 15, 2010
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