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I, Robot

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(Photo of Asimo, a humanoid robot created by Honda. Wikipedia photo taken by Gnsin at Expo 2005.)

Over at Why Evolution Is True, Professor Coyne has suddenly woken up to the fact that for many people (including scientists), morality is a powerful reason for believing in God. Coyne thinks this is silly, and that the whole attempt to derive morality from God is doomed. But the arguments he puts forward for his point of view are rather facile, and he fails to address the central problem with his own position.

What might that problem be? Like most atheistic scientists, Professor Jerry Coyne doesn’t believe in free will. As he puts it:

Indeed, studies of the brain are pushing back notions of free will in precisely the way that studies of evolution have pushed back the idea of a creator-god.

We simply don’t like to think that we’re molecular automatons, and so we adopt a definition of free will that makes us think we’re free. But as far as I can see, I, like everyone else, am just a molecular puppet. I don’t like that much, but that’s how it is.

And again, here:

It seems to me that in view of physical determinism (plus fine-scale physical stochasticity involving quantum events), there is no way that we can make decisions that are truly free. Some, like [Humanities professor William] Egginton, simply finesse the question by redefining “free,” but I don’t think that these redefinitions of “free will” comport with how most of us understand the term, or with how it’s been historically (not philosophically) understood.
(Emphases and square brackets mine – VJT.)

So tell me, Professor Coyne: if we are not free, then (a) how are we supposed to be good, (b) why should we bother anyway, and (c) why should we blame those who refuse to make the effort, if their decisions aren’t really free?

Another inconsistency of atheists who share Professor Coyne’s views on freedom is that they are nearly always angry at someone – be it the Pope or former President George W. Bush or global warming deniers. I have to say that makes absolutely no sense to me. Look. If I’m just an automaton, whose behavior is determined by circumstances beyond my control, as Professor Coyne claims, then I can quite understand someone attempting to re-program me, re-educate me or condition me into behaving the “right” way, if they don’t like what I’m doing. I can even understand someone deciding to liquidate me because I’m a faulty piece of machinery that cannot be re-programmed. But please, spare me your moral outrage, your sermonizing, your finger-wagging lectures and your righteous indignation. That I cannot abide. You don’t lecture the PC on your desk when it doesn’t do what you want. If I’m just a glorified version of a desktop PC, then why lecture me?

Next, Professor Coyne invokes Plato’s Euthyphro argument in order to discredit all forms of morality that are based on belief in God:

Religious people have yet to come to grips with Plato’s Euthyphro argument (originally couched in terms of piety rather than morality, but the principle is the same): we would not follow God’s “morality” if God decreed that we perform acts like taking slaves or killing the wives and children of our enemies. That’s because we don’t really think that morality is equivalent to the dictates of God. Rather, we have a prior notion of what is moral. If you respond that God is good, and would never ask people to commit immoral acts, that too shows that you have a notion of morality that’s prior to God. (It also shows that you haven’t read the Bible.)

Here’s my answer to Professor Coyne:

Regarding the Bible, see my comments below. All that the Euthyphro argument proves is that our general notion of morality is prior to any revealed religion, and hence that morality cannot be based entirely on some alleged revelation from God, or some supposed set of commands from God. Our general notion of morality is grounded in the nature of things – hence the term, “natural law ethics.” A thing’s nature defines what is good for it. But a thing’s nature is in turn grounded in the reality of the uncaused, omnipotent, omniscient, omni-benevolent Being who maintains the universe in existence and who gives things their natures. This is the God of natural theology, and the reason why we invoke such a Being in order to explain the cosmos is that no other being is capable of doing so. And in the absence of such a God, there is no satisfactory way in which an atheist can answer the meta-ethical question: why should I treat other individuals in accordance with their natures? Why should I want what is good for them?

“But isn’t the standard of good still something external to God?” I hear you object. My reply: that depends on what you mean by “external.” If you mean that living things (which have a good of their own) are by nature distinct from God, then of course the answer is yes. But if you mean that they are independent of God, then my answer is no.

“But why couldn’t God be omniscient and omni-malevolent by nature, instead of omni-benevolent?” I hear some readers ask. Because it is He who gives things their ends, which define what is good for them. For Him to will the wholesale frustration of ends that He had created would be a contradiction in terms. Nor could God be morally indifferent: that would mean that God had no desire to realize ends which He created in order to be realized – which is another contradiction.

I conclude that the Euthyphro argument can be easily answered, and in no way weakens belief in God.

Next, Professor Coyne asks why theists and atheists tend to reach similar moral conclusions, if morality is ultimately based on God:

If you derive morality from God, how come atheists and religious people give similar answers to moral dilemmas (the work of Marc Hauser and colleagues)?

The short answer is that (i) atheists, like religious people, possess the use of reason; and (ii) atheists, like religious people, are capable of recognizing the nature of things – including human beings – and identifying what is good for them, up to a point. I say “up to a point,” because atheists and theists are likely to differ when it comes to ultimate human ends like religion, which includes the worship of God, as well as on our obligation not to alter our God-given natures (e.g. by having a sex change operation, or replacing part of your brain with a silicon chip).

I might add that citing Professor Marc Hauser as an authority for a scientific assertion might not be a good idea, at the present moment.

But Professor Jerry Coyne has more ammunition up his sleeve: why, he asks, if God is changeless, does morality change over time?

And if morality comes from God, why has what we view as “moral” changed so much in modern times? Most of us now feel that slavery and the subjugation of women, racial minorities and gays are immoral, but they weren’t seen that way a few centuries ago. Did God’s orders change?

First, morality isn’t based on God’s orders, but on the nature of things, which owe their being to God. Human beings possess reason and free will; hence slavery is contrary to their nature. Men and women alike possess reason and free will, and all races of human beings possess these faculties; hence there can be no grounds for subjugating one race or sex to another. And no-one, as far as I know, has ever argued that gays lack reason, so enslaving them is out of the question, regardless of how one views their behavior. The fact that many people in past ages failed to recognize these obvious conclusions doesn’t require us to assume that God has changed. It’s people who have changed, not God.

Second, the changes that Professor Coyne describes apply only to a relatively small sliver of human history. People have always favored their own tribe, but racism based on skin color is a relatively novel phenomenon; the Roman Empire, which had African Emperors (see here and here), a Senate that was one-third African at one point, and many Africans in prominent positions in society, was largely free from racism. And while the subjugation of women was pretty awful in ancient Greece, it was nowhere near as bad in ancient Sumer, let alone in prehistoric societies. My point here is that the “Whig view” of history as a long steady march towards liberty is flat-out wrong, and the notion that religion has held back morality is even more so. Atheists had little or nothing to do with most of the moral advances that have occurred in human history: the elimination of child sacrifice; the elimination of infanticide; the rule of law; habeas corpus; the adoption of international rules for warfare; the acceptance of international arbitration; the elimination of slavery; the elimination of torture; the recognition of women as men’s spiritual equals; and the elimination of racism. Atheists should stop claiming credit where credit is not due.

Third, I would invite readers to have a look at the following articles, which illustrate how religion has saved hundreds of millions of lives during the past 2,000 years:

A Global Perspective in the Epidemiology of Suicide by Associate Professor Jose Manoel Bertolote and Dr. Alexandra Fleischmann.
Bertolote and Fleischmann point out that in Muslim countries (e.g. Kuwait) where suicide is most strictly forbidden, the suicide rate is close to zero (0.1 per 100,000). The suicide rate is highest in atheist countries such as China, where it is 25.6 per 100,000. There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. If they were living under the atheistic regime of China, 450,000 of them would be killing themselves every year, or 45,000,000 per century. Anything that saves that many lives has got to be socially beneficial.

Live Longer, Healthier and Better: The Untold Benefits of Becoming a Christian in the ancient world by Professor Rodney Stark. In Christianity Today, Issue 57, January 1, 1998.
Reconstructing the Rise of Christianity: the Role of Women by Professor Rodney Stark. In Sociology of Religion, Vol. 56, Fall 1995.

The above articles by Professor Stark describe how the Christian teaching of the spiritual equality of men and women, coupled with its prohibition of abortion and infanticide, improved the lot of women in the Roman Empire, and how Christians saved millions of Romans’ lives by caring for the sick during plagues. In the Roman Empire, the male head of the household could order any female living in his household to have an abortion. What’s more, a married woman who gave birth had no legal right to keep her child unless the male head of the household picked it up and set it down on the family hearth. Otherwise the child had to be placed outside in the street, where it would either die of exposure or be picked up by some unscrupulous rogue and sold into slavery. Girls were exposed far more often than boys: research has shown that the ratio of men to women in the Roman Empire was at least 120:100.

“So what’s your point?” I hear you ask. Here’s my point. Population of the Roman Empire: about 60 million people. Annual number of births (assuming say, 40 births per 1000 people per year): about 2.4 million, or 1.2 million boys and 1.2 million girls, of whom 200,000 were killed. Enter Christianity: up to 200,000 girls’ lives saved per year, or 20 million per century, or 200 million over a period of a millennium. Still think religion doesn’t matter?

90 Million Missing Females, and a $45 Trillion Gap: The Fruits of Misguided Family Planning. Zenit Daily Dispatch, 24 July 2004.
Examines the social consequences of female infanticide in China and India, and of declining fertility rates around the world.

Finally, Professor Coyne argues that the Bible illustrates the utter folly and futility of basing one’s morality upon belief in God:

And what about the “morality” of scripture? Clearly God once ordered all kinds of genocide and murder, including rape and (my favorite story) inducing a bear to murder forty-two youths for simply making fun of Elisha’s bald head (2 Kings 2:23-24).

But this objection is irrelevant to the key issue. Andrew Zak Williams’s article in the New Statesman, which Jerry Coyne is commenting on, asked public figures and scientists to explain why they believe in God, not why they believe in Judaism or Christianity. Many respondents nominated morality as a reason for believing in God. The issue we need to address is therefore whether morality requires God, in order to be rationally justifiable. Arguments based on allegedly immoral commands by God in Scripture are therefore beside the point. At most, they prove that the God of the Bible is not the true God. Such arguments leave classical theism – defined as the belief in a God who is transcendent, perfect, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, omni-benevolent, immutable and incapable of being decomposed into parts – entirely intact. Logically speaking, one can accept classical theism without believing in any religion.

In any case, arguments based on allegedly immoral commands by God in Scripture are weak. The books of Scripture were written 2,000 to 3,000 years ago, in foreign tongues (mostly ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek), by people whose mindset and mental outlook was very different from our own. Using the story of Elisha and the bears, as Coyne does, to argue against revealed religion assumes that we know who the offenders were (Were they young men, teenagers or boys?), what their intentions were towards Elisha (Did they mean to harm him or merely to mock him?), what their offense was (Was it mockery, blasphemy, attempted assault or attempted murder?), and to what degree they were punished (Were they actually conscious and in pain while being mauled to pieces by the bears, or did God cause them to drop dead instantly of shock as soon as the bears appeared?) We can’t be certain of any of these things, for the story in question. There are too many unknowns.

Professor Coyne’s unfounded assertion that God orders rape in the Bible is also based on his own highly questionable interpretation of Scripture. The following articles may serve as a useful counter-balance: an article on the slaughter of the Midianites and another on Old Testament laws about rape and virginity by Christian apologist Glenn Miller; The Bible and Rape – A Response to Michael Martin by Matt and Madeleine Flanagan; and The Old Testament and Rape by Sam Shamoun.

In short: Professor Coyne appears to suffer from the naive delusion that there is such a thing as the “plain sense of Holy Scripture,” which an individual can discern for him/herself. The fact of the matter is that Scripture is never plain; it must be read in the context of the time and culture in which it was written, and the community to whom it was written.

I will conclude by asking Professor Coyne a question: how can he criticize scientists and public figures for grounding their morality in a belief in God, when his own brand of atheism offers no alternative, and even denies human freedom altogether?

Comments
Mark at 83, if you make those arguments and nothing changes from them, then there is nothing to be said about it. If you are correct, then it is neither right nor wrong in the end, and you had no argument to make in the first place.Upright BiPed
May 1, 2011
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You had asked for an example of pure democracy [or mob rule] that became transformed into a tyranny.
Yes – and so far all you have come up with is a mixed democracy/oligarchy.
In any case, mob rule doesn’t last very long and tyranny does. So, it is a lot harder to track down individual cases of the former and analyze them. Typically, mob rule doesn’t know where it is going it just doesn’t like where it has been
I appreciate it may be hard to find examples.  But if you know of no examples how can you assert that one leads to the other so confidently?markf
May 1, 2011
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Based on what principle? Would you say, “Please stop this because I don’t like it?”
Using the same types of arguments that people have used for ethical debates all over the world for millennia. Such things as: * Direct appeals to emotion “just see how this woman suffers” * Arguments from consistency – “you give this group certain rights but not that group for no reason” * The golden rule – “suppose someone limited your rights in this way how would you feel” and so on Why do you guys keep on trying to equate subjectivism with not having any grounds?  When say something is funny I say so for a reason – although the ultimate arbiter is whether it makes people laugh. You seek some clinching universal principle for moral statements.  But reality is not like that. Moral arguments are made on a complex overlapping set of criteria none of which are clinching but all of which we tend to share with other people.  However, the arbiter is the potential these criteria have for human reaction.markf
May 1, 2011
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---markf: "I am afraid I don’t know much about ancient Rome but it is difficult to see how it could be described as pure democracy given the great power of the unelected senate." You had asked for an example of pure democracy [or mob rule] that became transformed into a tyranny. In any case, mob rule doesn't last very long and tyranny does. So, it is a lot harder to track down individual cases of the former and analyze them. Typically, mob rule doesn't know where it is going it just doesn't like where it has been.StephenB
May 1, 2011
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---markf: "There are obviously large areas of the world where the rulers (and I suspect the people) don’t agree or don’t put so much emphasis on human rights and given the opportunity I will try to persuade them otherwise." Based on what principle? Would you say, "Please stop this because I don't like it?" How does that persuade someone who does like it and would prefer not to stop? That strategy only works if you are a part of the majority. If you are in the minority, you are out of luck. Keep in mind that slavery is the norm of history. Freedom is the exception and is, at the moment, hanging on a thin thread in many places where it was once prevelant. ---"It implies that at one time the USA protected human rights better than it does now. Yet I see the history of the USA as a steadily improving record on protecting the rights of its citizens. When was the golden age? When the slave-owning founding fathers set it up?" The Founders set up a principle at variance with their behavior, but they were self concious about the inconsistency and resolved to do something about it. By insisting on the principle of inherent dignity, they made reform possible at a later date. Example: By arguing on behalf of the natural moral law, Martin Luther Kind helped secure basic human rights for blacks, arguing that the majority opinion at the time was wrong. He said, in effect, "I don't care how many people prefer this travesty, it is wrong because it violates the natural moral law, which cannot be voted on." He told them to read their own founding documents! Women's suffrage was one the same say. Unfortunately, the United States has officially abandoned that principle, and rules by the whim of rulers and popular by opinion. At the moment, the majority is beginning to persecute selected minorities, who can no longer call on the rule of law to protect them.StephenB
May 1, 2011
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I think ancient Rome would be a good example.
I am afraid I don’t know much about ancient Rome but it is difficult to see how it could be described as pure democracy given the great power of the unelected senate.
However, I don’t want to leave you with the wrong impression. Any system that ignores the inherent dignity of the human person [as expressed in the natural moral law] is an evil system. So I agree with what I perceive to be your instinct, that is, anti-human religious tyranny imposed from the top down is just as destructive as anti-human mob rule imposed from the bottom up. Unchecked Ideology is no better or worse than unfettered mindlessness, and they both produce the same thing– slavery.
I would agree with all of that except the phrase [as expressed in the natural moral law].
The point is that human dignity and human rights cannot be granted by other humans, they must be accepted as a pre-existent, non-negotiable reality—inviolate and untouchable. If society socially constructed them from the bottom up, society could deconstruct them the same way; if a ruler conferred them from the top down, he could withdraw them the same way.
In practice human rights are granted (and removed) by other humans.  Some humans may accept them as non-negotiable and inviolate in the sense that the constitution should not allow them to be overridden by any law.  The belief that they are pre-existing and in some sense exist outside of humanity may or may not help to sustain that.  However, that doesn’t prove that human rights are pre-existing and exist outside of humanity.  Many societies recognise and protect individual human rights and have sustained this without tying it back to a natural moral law – most Western European countries for example. In terms of my moral philosophy, I don’t see human rights as being different from any other moral issue.  I agree that it is right that individual rights are protected against majority rule or indeed any other kind of threat. I don’t think these rights should be absolutely sacrosanct – they have to be balanced against other things e.g. I can imagine that one day it might be necessary to make some kind of vaccination compulsory to avoid a global epidemic. But they are very important and government should be arranged so they can only be suspended under extraordinary circumstances. That is my subjective opinion for which I have some grounds. Luckily for me, I think most people with a Western liberal education would agree. There are obviously large areas of the world where the rulers (and I suspect the people) don’t agree or don’t put so much emphasis on human rights and given the opportunity I will try to persuade them otherwise.
Unfortunately, the United States has lost its way on that front and now passes laws based on popular opinion and political whim, which is why it is losing its prosperity, and its credibility and its power.
I was intrigued by this for two reasons. 1) It implies that at one time the USA protected human rights better than it does now.  Yet I see the history of the USA as a steadily improving record on protecting the rights of its citizens.  When was the golden age?  When the slave-owning founding fathers set it up? 2) Strange to tie the failure to protect human rights to prosperity, and credibility and power.  Is this the measure of a morally good government? The country which seems to be acquiring  prosperity, credibility and power most quickly is China. Do you believe China protects individual human rights based on a natural moral law?markf
May 1, 2011
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@78 should read: The point is that human dignity and human rights cannot be granted by other humans, they must be accepted as a pre-existent, non-negotiable reality—inviolate and untouchable.StephenB
April 30, 2011
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---markf: "Do you actually have an example of a pure democracy that resulting tyranny?" I think ancient Rome would be a good example. However, I don’t want to leave you with the wrong impression. Any system that ignores the inherent dignity of the human person [as expressed in the natural moral law] is an evil system. So I agree with what I perceive to be your instinct, that is, anti-human religious tyranny imposed from the top down is just as destructive as anti-human mob rule imposed from the bottom up. Unchecked Ideology is no better or worse than unfettered mindlessness, and they both produce the same thing-- slavery. The point is that human dignity and human rights cannot be granted by other humans, they must be accepted a pre-existent as a non-negotiable reality—inviolate and untouchable. If society socially constructed them from the bottom up, society could deconstruct them the same way; if a ruler conferred them from the top down, he could withdraw them the same way.StephenB
April 30, 2011
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#78 I am sorry I disagree. The statement A computer ought to have a hard drive is not necessarily true. Suppose you are deeply opposed to computers. Then for you computers without hard drives are much better because they don't work. The statement is a short-hand for: If a computer is to work as designed then it ought to have a hard drive And this not a value statement.markf
April 30, 2011
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Markf I'd like to get back to what Foot says: "So there’s this notion of a defect which is species-relevant. Things aren’t just good or bad, they’re good in a certain individual, in relation to the manner of life of his or hers or its species." From this, I take it that Foot is making the following claim: that which a plant ought to have is what it needs in order to thrive, given its way of life. You object to that formulation and put forward the following alternative: "if plants are to thrive they ought to have features x, y or z." I take it as unexceptionable to claim that a thing ought to have what it requires in order to exist and function. Even for a machine, this is true. A computer ought to have a hard drive; without one, it can hardly be called a computer, as it cannot do anything. A plant ought to have roots; without these, it will very soon die, and cease to be a plant, as it will be unable to take in water and minerals. A horse ought to have a heart, and a strong one at that; without one, it will be unable to gallop, and will soon expire. Are these value statements? Yes. Are they matters of opinion? No.vjtorley
April 30, 2011
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#73 Stephenb I have learned something.  The difference between a republic incorporating some “inalienable” rights and a democracy is not one that comes up much here.  As I am sure you know the UK does not even have a written constitution.  I see two main issues: (a) Does the possibility of a republic based on “natural moral law” demonstrate that morality is objective. You clearly think that a  government based on the natural moral law is better than other contenders.  Even if this is true it does not entail that natural moral law is objectively true.  It just shows it is effective. (b) Do democracies which do not incorporate some kind of moral code which cannot be changed turn into tyrannies? You give a lot of quotes to support this case but nothing else.  My problem here is I don’t know what you count as a “pure democracy” and therefore one that should lead to tyranny.  The majority of democracies I can think of have not lead to tyranny – but maybe they are not pure?  I guess the Athenian democracy was as close to pure as you can imagine provided you were an adult male citizen.  I am not aware that this led to tyranny among that group.   Do you actually have an example of a pure democracy that resulting tyranny?markf
April 30, 2011
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#72 vj I will concentrate on the key problem: Foot does not make these claims. What she says is that plants ought to have those traits that they need in order to thrive – and presumably people should, too. Why ought plants have those traits that they need in order to thrive? This is a value statement and a matter of opinion. It is different from "if plants are to thrive they ought to have features x, y or z." which is factual. I suspect Foot makes her case by not paying attention to this, but I haven't read much of her stuff.markf
April 30, 2011
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---markf: "I described the process which currently operates in both our countries which is based on the views of democratically elected representatives who use a variety of criteria. What more can I do?" There is a difference between a "process" and the philosophy that informs it. I am discussing [or asking about] the latter. The country I live in, the United States, is a Republic [or at least it was designed to be that way], some might describe it loosely as a Representative Democracy, but it is not a pure democracy. The Republic under which I live was designed to establish just laws BASED ON a universal standard of justice called the natural moral law, and was designed not to permit its citizens, or for that matter, its leaders, to establish laws based on their own personal whim. In a pure democracy, citizens vote on laws based on their own personal whim with no regard whatever for the common good. Unfortunately, the United States has lost its way on that front and now passes laws based on popular opinion and political whim, which is why it is losing its prosperity, and its credibility and its power. ---"Can you name a single incidence of pure democracy – much less one leading to tyranny?" According to the Founding Fathers and other observers of history, all of the ancient democracies became tyrannies. “It had been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience had proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity.” Alexander Hamilton “The world is weary of statesmen whom democracy has degraded into politicians.” Benjamin Disraeli “The adoption of Democracy as a form of Government by all European nations is fatal to good Government, to liberty, to law and order, to respect for authority, and to religion, and must eventually produce a state of chaos from which a new world tyranny will arise.” Duke of Northumberland “I have long been convinced that institutions purely democratic must, sooner or later, destroy liberty or civilization, or both.” Thomas Babington Macaulay “Democracy forever teases us with the contrast between its ideals and its realities, between its heroic possibilities and its sorry achievements. Agnes Repplier A good politician under democracy is quite as unthinkable as an honest burglar. H.L. Mencken Nothing...is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man. Thomas Jefferson ---"Clearly you are against pure democracy. What alternative do you want?" A Constitutional Republic based on the natural moral law.StephenB
April 30, 2011
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Markf (#70) In answer to your question about the morality of breeding domestic animals so that they would not survive in a natural environment but suit our needs more: the first point I'd like to make is that even if it is bad for an organism to have a trait which biologically disadvantages it as a result of artificially breeding, insofar as its telos is frustrated, it doesn't necessarily follow that it is morally bad for us to breed this trait in the organism. Not all goods are moral goods; nor are all evils. Most goods are non-moral. Nor do all goods and evils depend on your perspective. In paradigm cases, they are independent of your perspective: heroin is bad for you, whether you like it or not. And thriving - be it plant, animal or human - is something that a scientist can usually observe and measure from a third-party standpoint. The second point I'd like to make is that breeding an organism so that it is deprived of some body part or bodily function is an action which is prima facie immoral, and which therefore requires a very strong justification - e.g. the organism is a pest or a disease-carrier; or the loss incurred by the organism will somehow result in human lives being saved. Other, more minor alterations produced by breeding - e.g. excess wool, excess milk production in females, emphasis on producing good meat rather than athleticism - are far less problematic. They don't rob the animal of a bodily function as such. They may be disadvantageous in the wild, but the animal will never return to the wild state, and even in the domestic state, minor alterations of the sort described above can hardly be said to deprive the animal of funktionslust. Regarding your statements (c) and (d): (c) Plants ought to thrive. (d) Humans ought to thrive. Foot does not make these claims. What she says is that plants ought to have those traits that they need in order to thrive - and presumably people should, too. You also wrote that a plant needs roots in order to thrive in certain environments. My understanding is that apart from mosses (which have rhizoids, not roots) and a few flowering plants like Spanish moss (which is essentially rootless except for a short period right after germination), plants do need roots to take in water and minerals. But even supposing you're right, it would still be the case that in its typical environment, to which it is naturally adapted (and in which it evolved), a plant will certainly need roots, and that therefore a plant should possess them. You also wrote that people need courage in order to thrive in certain environments. One can think of societies (such as our own) where physical courage is seldom required (moral courage is another matter, of course). But even so, such societies are not likely to continue for long in this ideal state. All good things come to an end. Typically, physical courage is a trait that humans do need. So I would definitely be in favor of fostering the virtue of courage in any human society. Finally, I agree that the boundaries of a species are often vague. Even so, there are many species traits which remain constant for millions of years, so even in a Darwinian sense, one can speak of these species as having a nature, since the pace of evolutionary change is so slow. However, this nature would not be fixed over time.vjtorley
April 30, 2011
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Onlookers: Cf 57 above and 48 above, to see the elephant in the middle of the room. On evolutionary materialist premises, there is no foundational IS sufficient to ground OUGHT, so all boils down int eh end to might and manipulation make "right." The consequences of such amorality and radical relativism -- as with the prototype "pure" democracy, Athens in the days of a certain Alcibiades referred to above -- are predictably and repeatedly utterly destructive. So long as the grounding issue is not cogently addressed, there is no foundation for MF et al in making moral pronouncements. Save, to borrow -- without acknowledgement -- from the view that DOES have a foundational IS who properly grounds OUGHT. Namely, the inherently good Creator God. So, now, is OUGHT real?
a: If evolutionary materialists answer, not, why then is it so important to those who reject it alongside the tooth fairy? b: If they answer, yes [and their actions suggest this], then is this not material evidence that only worldviews that ground OUGHT can be credible? Thence, why resort to worldviews that cannot?
GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 30, 2011
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#69 While I have great respect for Foot I disagree with her. Throughout this work she is hiding an important assumption. A plant needs roots in order to thrive in certain environments. People need courage in order to thrive in certain environments. It does not follow from this that (a) Plants need roots to thrive in all environments. (b) Humans need courage to thrive in all environments. (c) Plants ought to thrive. (d) Humans ought to thrive. There are further problems with defining morality in terms of what a species needs. One is the concept of a species is not that clear - as Denyse is fond of reminding us. What is good for a horse may not be good for donkey - but what about a mule? And I would still like to know your opinion of the morality of breeding domestic animals so that they would not survive in a natural environment but suit our needs more.markf
April 30, 2011
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Markf (#67) Thank you for your post. Rather than try to explain what I mean, I propose to let a philosopher far better than I - and an atheist, I might add - do it for me. If you will have a look at my post, Death of a grande dame: can we build morality on the foundation of natural goodness , you will readily perceive what I was getting at. To quote Foot:
“I’m explaining a notion that I have called ‘natural goodness’. An admired colleague of mine, Michael Thompson, has said of my work that I believe that vice is a form of natural defect. That’s exactly what I believe, and I want to say that we describe defects in human beings in the same way as we do defects in plants and animals. I once began a lecture by saying that in moral philosophy it’s very important to begin by talking about plants. This surprised some people! “What I believe is that there are a whole set of concepts that apply to living things and only to living things, considered in their own right. These would include, for instance, function, welfare, flourishing, interests, the good of something. And I think that all these concepts are a cluster. They belong together. “When we say something is good, say one’s ears or eyes are good, we mean they are as they should be, as human ears ought to be, that they fulfil the function that ears are needed for in human life… There’s nothing wrong with our eyes because we can’t see in the dark. But owls’ eyes are defective if they can’t see in the dark. So there’s this notion of a defect which is species-relevant. Things aren’t just good or bad, they’re good in a certain individual, in relation to the manner of life of his or hers or its species. That’s the basic idea. And I argue that moral defects are just one more example of this kind of defect. “So let’s take plants. A plant needs strong roots, and in the same sort of way human beings need courage. When one is talking about what a human being should do, one says things like, “look, he should be able to face up to danger in certain circumstances, for his own sake and for the sake of others.” But this is like saying, “an owl should be able to see in the dark, should be able to fly” or “a gull should be able to recognize the sound of its chick among all the cacophony of the cliff.” And if you think of it in this way then you’re not going to think that there’s a gap between facts and evaluation – between description of facts, such as ‘owls hunt by night’, that’s a description of fact, and another description, such as ‘that owl’s got weak eyesight; it’s doesn’t seem to be able to manage in the dark’. These are the central notions. And that’s why I thought we should start moral philosophy by talking about plants.”
Do you agree with Foot? If not, why not?vjtorley
April 30, 2011
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Stephenb  
Well, not exactly. I condemn mass murder because it is wrong. You condemn it because you don’t like it. It’s not the same thing. In any case, the issue is not whether someone has strong feelings about morality. Everyone, including you and I, have strong feelings on the subject. What matters is whether or not their strong feelings are in keeping with the way the world really is.
I suggest we leave this aspect. You think you condemn mass murder because it is objectively wrong.  I think you condemn mass murder because in your opinion it does not conform to a moral code which in your opinion everyone should conform to. You then define “wrong” as not conforming to that code. We are not going to make any more progress. We might make some progress on law-making.
That paragraph does not address the issue because in conflates the task of electing people with the process of establishing just laws.
In #51 you asked me to:
… think through the process. Eventually a decision will be made on which of our views will be codified into law. On what basis should that decision be made
I described the process which currently operates in both our countries which is based on the views of democratically elected representatives who use a variety of criteria. What more can I do? 
In fact, the subjective morality you recommend, by which we make up our own standards as we go along, promotes pure democracy which always leads to tyranny.
Can you name a single incidence of pure democracy – much less one leading to tyranny? Clearly you are against pure democracy.  What alternative do you want?  markf
April 29, 2011
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vj  
Something that disadvantages a sheep is by definition bad for it, and hence something it ought not have. A sheep ought not have three legs; it ought to have four.
I think you are assuming what you want to prove.  The fact a features is bad for it does not entail it ought not to have that feature.  It depends on your values.  I come back to my example of domestic animals that are bred to have features that are good for us but bad for them.  Are you saying they ought not to have these features by definition?
Regarding your earlier comment on the psychopath: is your skepticism directed at the notion of human beings having a nature of any sort at all, or at the notion that we share the same nature? If it is the latter, then I would ask you in turn: if human nature exists, then upon what are you going to base it, if not on our common biology, as members of the speciesHomo sapiens? But if you mean the former, then it seems you are tending towards a kind of radical nominalism.
I guess I am a nominalist in that I don’t think that abstract objects or universals exist. There are some properties that all humans share (or we would not call them humans), others that most share. markf
April 29, 2011
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---Markf: "Whatever our definition of right and wrong, in practice both condemn mass murder and the fact remains that mass murder is mostly done by people with either strong moral opinions or who are very frightened – not by those without strong moral codes." Well, not exactly. I condemn mass murder because it is wrong. You condemn it because you don't like it. It's not the same thing. In any case, the issue is not whether someone has strong feelings about morality. Everyone, including you and I, have strong feelings on the subject. What matters is whether or not their strong feelings are in keeping with the way the world really is. Commitement to the objective moral law, which reflects the way the world really is, encourages everyone to pay tribute to the same standard. Without that standard, there is no rational justification for person A, who rejects abortion or mass murder as evil, to exhort person B, who feels abortion and mass murder should be allowed. Nor does person A have any rational standard for mobilizing a group effort to stop it since he can provide no rational reasons to call it evil. ---"Why are we suddenly getting the philosophy of Jurisprudence? Anyhow my answer is I believe the process should be based on popular opinion –or more precisely a government elected by popular vote." That paragraph does not address the issue because in conflates the task of electing people with the process of establishing just laws. In fact, the subjective morality you recommend, by which we make up our own standards as we go along, promotes pure democracy which always leads to tyranny. "Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." — John Adams, letter to John Taylor, April 15, 1814 "Democracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few." Walter WilliamsStephenB
April 29, 2011
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Markf (#63) You ask:
That three legs will disadvantage a sheep in a natural environment is a value free fact. Where does the “ought” come in.
Something that disadvantages a sheep is by definition bad for it, and hence something it ought not have. A sheep ought not have three legs; it ought to have four. When I say "bad for it", of course, I do not merely mean that the sheep won't like it. Dying is bad for you, even if it happens in your sleep. Disease is bad for you, even if you are unconscious while afflicted with it. I mean "bad" in the same way that lack of sunlight is bad for a plant. A plant ought to get a certain amount of sunlight every day; if it doesn't, it fails to thrive. Regarding your earlier comment on the psychopath: is your skepticism directed at the notion of human beings having a nature of any sort at all, or at the notion that we share the same nature? If it is the latter, then I would ask you in turn: if human nature exists, then upon what are you going to base it, if not on our common biology, as members of the species Homo sapiens? But if you mean the former, then it seems you are tending towards a kind of radical nominalism.vjtorley
April 29, 2011
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Mung: I'm aware of Professor Oderberg's book, but I've done all my book shopping for the year, so I'm afraid it will have to wait until next year.vjtorley
April 29, 2011
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#61 vj You introduced this sheep as an example of an "ought" which an animal carries with it. You have clarified this as not having an inherent defect where an inherent defect is something which disadvantages a sheep in a natural environment. Two comments: That three legs will disadvantage a sheep in a natural environment is a value free fact. Where does the "ought" come in. Most sheep and other domestic animals have been bred with characteristics which would disadvantage them in a natural environment - excess wool, excess milk production in females, emphasis on producing good meat rather than athleticism etc. Presumably breeding this characteristics is a sin?markf
April 29, 2011
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I VJT: Are you aware of Real Essentialism Google BooksMung
April 29, 2011
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Markf (#50) Thank you for your post. You wrote:
In what sense is it wrong for a sheep to have less than or more than four legs? A sheep ought to have four legs if it going to live long and reproduce. But this is a factual statement not a value statement.
I wouldn't say it's wrong for a sheep to have less than or more than four legs. I would prefer to say that it's bad for a sheep to have less than or more than four legs. You suggest that this statement can be cashed out as a hypothetical: A sheep ought to have four legs if it going to live long and reproduce. But these goals define what it is to be a good sheep - unlike the goal of, say, coming first in a sheep competition, which merely reflects the human preferences of the judges. A sheep which fails to realize the goals of living long and reproducing because of some inherent defect is a bad sheep. What do I mean by an inherent defect? I mean a trait which would disadvantage a sheep in any natural environment in which the sheep might be expected to be found. Of course, there are some traits (e.g. the ability to go for long periods without water) which might serve a sheep well in some environments but not others; but three-leggedness disadvantages a sheep, no matter what natural environment it finds itself in. I hope that answers your question.vjtorley
April 29, 2011
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F/N 2: Pardon a direct word or two to those who "don't have the time" to attend to "long" correctives -- how we refuse to attend to the much longer underlying evidence and argument in the root sources -- to major and heavily promoted errors. Errors, such as the slander that Christianity is wedded to tyranny, or the dangerous error that worldviews that have in them no IS that can adequately ground OUGHT should be taken seriously. Given the horrible consequences that these and similar errors have had across time, there is a plain duty of care to take time to correct them. To fail in that duty is to promote destructive error that one knows or should know -- and has access to know -- is error.kairosfocus
April 29, 2011
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F/N: In light of MF's hint above --
Have you got an alternative you prefer?
. . . that subtly suggests the now widely believed slander that Christians would promote a theocratic tyranny [cf here in the UD WACs] -- we must note that all too many secularists are ever so quick to try to take credit for the rise of modern democratic self-government of and by a free people. Cf here for a corrective, preliminary discussion of key Christian contributions to this "least worst" system of government for finite, fallible, morally fallen, too-often ill-willed human beings; and, on why its premises are so deeply rooted in the Judaeo-Christian worldview, as Hooker exemplifies.kairosfocus
April 29, 2011
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PS: Cf this video (discussed here) to see the ever so familiar Plato's Cave shadow show games that that worthy exposed in his The Republic, nearly 2,400 years ago.kairosfocus
April 29, 2011
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Onlookers: Kindly, cf. 48 above --
which MF has studiously ignored; telling us something about how he and those of like ilk would promote and warrant their preferences for law
. . . to see how -- 2,350 years ago -- it was already known that in an evo mat world, there is no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. So, in such a view the only ultimate warrant or grounding for law is force: "the highest might is right" or "might makes right." If that sort of world does not send chills down your spine as you hear the moaning of 100 million ghosts of victims of regimes that adhered to such notions in the century just past, it should. Let us instead look at how in Ch 2 sect 5 of his 2nd essay on civil gov't, Locke grounded justice in the law of nature and the inherently good creator God who made us in his image as morally governed creatures; by citing the 1594+ words of Anglican Canon Richard Hooker in his classic Ecclesiastical Polity [which was actually praised by the pope of the time, across the bitter divide over religion]. Let us also note the background in the Golden Rule of Moshe and Jeshua d'Nazaret. We should also recognise the links Hooker makes to general ethical thought by citing Aristotle. That is, in light of what Mr Obama dismissed as an obscure epistle by Paul [which happens to be foundational to NT theology], Hooker is implying the premise in Rom 2:12 - 16, that God has implanted core moral law in our hearts, so that even if we do not have a proper worldview level grounding, we recognise the key truths on morality:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]
In that context, the gap between core moral principle and the patent equality of nature of our fellow human beings, is a rebuke to worldviews that imply the absurdity of amorality. We may insist on a morally absurd worldview, but we do so in the teeth of patent truth that decisively undercuts it. On this alone, one is well-warranted in rejecting evolutionary materialism as self-referentially incoherent and destructive. And, then, one has to address Haldane's expose of the absurdity of the same evo mat on the credibility of mind (more elaborate discussion here):
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms." ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
One may play clever rhetorical games and choose to ignore such a reductio ad absurdum, but one cannot evade its consequences. Horrible, destructive consequences that the ghosts of 100 million victims of C20 "scientific" tyrannies remind us of. Consequences that we dare not forget, on pain of repeating some of the worst ever chapters of history. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 29, 2011
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StephenB #51
I am asking you to think through the process. Eventually a decision will be made on which of our views will be codified into law. On what basis should that decision be made. Earlier, you argued that it should be based on a general consensus informed by your personal preferences, which itself is an impossible combination. Now, you say that you believe in the rule of law, but the rule of law was designed to protect the minority from the consensus decisions arrived at by a majority, or, what has been characterized as a “tyranny the majority.” In fact, the rule of law, which you now claim to embrace, is based on the concept of the natural moral law, which you have already disavowed. The point of the natural moral law is that it must be respected by everyone, majority, minority, and leaders–not just the majority. That is the only way each group can be protected by the other.
Now it is morning I will try to expand on this. There are three different questions. (1) Which laws are ethically the best (2) What is the best process pragmatically for coming up with laws (3) Should one  obey any law however bad it is (1) When I say the current law X  is a bad one that is me expressing my opinion as I have described several times above. I disapprove of it, have grounds for my belief (see criteria above), and believe that I could persuade the majority of people to agree with it given the opportunity. If this is what you mean by “a general consensus informed by your personal preferences” then I see nothing impossible about it.  In fact I just described it. (2) The best system I know of for coming up with laws is that they be made by a democratically elected government.  Have you got an alternative you prefer?  The members of that government will come to their decision based on a range of different criteria and pressures.  Naturally I hope they make their decisions based on my opinion of what is right and wrong.  Is this what you call the tyranny of the majority? I would have thought you have much the same view about how laws should be made. (3) Almost always I should obey the law but there may be situations in which I feel the law is so appalling I feel I ought to  disobey it.  markf
April 28, 2011
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