Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID and Common Descent

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Many, many people seem to misunderstand the relationship between Intelligent Design and Common Descent. Some view ID as being equivalent to Progressive Creationism (sometimes called Old-Earth Creationism), others seeing it as being equivalent to Young-Earth Creationism. I have argued before that the core of ID is not about a specific theory of origins. In fact, many ID’ers hold a variety of views including Progressive Creationism and Young-Earth Creationism.

But another category that is often overlooked are those who hold to both ID and Common Descent, where the descent was purely naturalistic. This view is often considered inconsistent. My goal is to show how this is a consistent proposition.

I should start by noting that I do not myself hold to the Common Descent proposition. Nonetheless, I think that the relationship of ID to Common Descent has been misunderstood enough as to warrant some defense.

The issue is that most people understand common descent entirely from a Darwinian perspective. That is, they assume that the notion of natural selection and gradualism follow along closely to the notion of common descent. However, there is nothing that logically ties these together, especially if you allow for design.

In Darwinism, each feature is a selected accident. Therefore, Darwinian phylogenetic trees often use parsimony as a guide, meaning that it tries to construct a tree so that complex features don’t have to evolve more than once.

The ID version of common descent, however, doesn’t have to play by these rules. The ID version of common descent includes a concept known as frontloading – where the designer designed the original organism so that it would have sufficient information for its later evolution. If one allows for design, there is no reason to assume that the original organism must have been simple. It may in fact have been more complex than any existing organism. There are maximalist versions of this hypothesis, where the original organism had a superhuge genome, and minimalist versions of this hypothesis (such as from Mike Gene) where only the basic outlines of common patterns of pathways were present. Some have objected to the idea of a superhuge genome, on the basis that it isn’t biologically tenable. However, the amoeba has 100x the number of base pairs that a human has, so the carrying capacity of genetic information for a single-cell organism is quite large. I’m going to focus on views that tend towards the maximalist.

Therefore, because of this initial deposit, it makes sense that phylogenetic change would be sudden instead of gradual. If the genetic information already existed, or at least largely existed in the original organism, then time wouldn’t be the barrier for it to come about. It also means that multiple lineages could lead to the same result. There is no reason to think that there was one lineage that lead to tetrapods, for instance. If there were multiple lineages which all were carrying basically the same information, there is no reason why there weren’t multiple tetrapod lineages. It also explains why we find chimeras much more often than we find organs in transition. If the information was already in the genome, then the organ could come into existence all-at-once. It didn’t need to evolve, except to switch on.

Take the flagellum, for instance. Many people criticize Behe for thinking that the flagellum just popped into existence sometime in history, based on irreducible complexity. That is not the argument Behe is making. Behe’s point is that the flagellum, whenever it arose, didn’t arise through a Darwinian mechanism. Instead, it arose through a non-Darwinian mechanism. Perhaps all the components were there, waiting to be turned on. Perhaps there is a meta-language guided the piecing together of complex parts in the cell. There are numerous non-Darwinian evolutionary mechanisms which are possible, several of which have been experimentally demonstrated. [[NOTE – (I would define a mechanism as being non-Darwinian when the mechanism of mutation biases the mutational probability towards mutations which are potentially useful to the organism)]]

Behe’s actual view, as I understand it, actually pushes the origin of information back further. Behe believes that the information came from the original arrangement of matter in the Big Bang. Interestingly, that seems to comport well with the original conception of the Big Bang by LeMaitre, who described the universe’s original configuration as a “cosmic egg”. We think of eggs in terms of ontogeny – a child grows in a systematic fashion (guided by information) to become an adult. The IDists who hold to Common Descent often view the universe that way – it grew, through the original input of information, into an adult form. John A. Davison wrote a few papers on this possibility.

Thus the common ID claim of “sudden appearance” and “fully-formed features” are entirely consistent both with common descent (even fully materialistic) and non-common-descent versions of the theory, because the evolution is guided by information.

There are also interesting mixes of these theories, such as Scherer’s Basic Type Biology. Here, a limited form of common descent is taken, along with the idea that information is available to guide the further diversification of the basic type along specific lines (somewhat akin to Vavilov’s Law). Interestingly, there can also be a common descent interpretation of Basic Type Biology as well, but I’ll leave that alone for now.

Now, you might be saying that the ID form of common descent only involves the origin of life, and therefore has nothing to do with evolution. As I have argued before, abiogenesis actually has a lot to do with the implicit assumptions guiding evolutionary thought. And, as hopefully has been evident from this post, the mode of evolution from an information-rich starting point (ID) is quite different from that of an information-poor starting point (neo-Darwinism). And, if you take common descent to be true, I would argue that ID makes much better sense of what we see (the transitions seem to happen with some information about where they should go next).

Now, you might wonder why I disagree with the notion of common descent. There are several, but I’ll leave you with one I have been contemplating recently. I think that agency is a distinct form of causation from chance and law. That is, things can be done with intention and creativity which could not be done in complete absence of those two. In addition, I think that there are different forms of agency in operation throughout the spectrum of life (I am undecided about whether the lower forms of life such as plants and bacteria have anything which could be considered agency, but I think that, say, most land animals do). In any case, humans seem to engage in a kind of agency that is distinct from other creatures. Therefore, we are left with the question of the origin of such agency. While common descent in combination with ID can sufficiently answer the origin of information, I don’t think it can sufficiently answer the origin of the different kinds of agency.

Comments
"ID is silent on the fossil record." http://www.discovery.org/a/1772 I didn't believe ID was silent on the fossil record. How can someone say that unless they did not know about the article referenced in the link above?traderdrew
January 14, 2010
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johnnyb at 20, You are correct that CSI is difficult to quantify in living creatures. That is why most practicing ID has moved on to other notions. You should see Dembski’s current work in active information, and my own work on the relationship between universality and design. These are much easier to use biologically. If you are interested in Dembski’s work, see Dembski’s site. If you are interested in mine, see my recent paper. Thanks for the references. What I'm looking for is a precise, quantifiable definition of how design can be detected. CSI seems to be the recommended metric for most in the ID community. Do you have another? (Active information hasn't been applied to an actual biological artifact, as far as I know).Mustela Nivalis
January 14, 2010
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tribune7 at 23, "If so, do you have an example of CSI being calculated for a real world biological artifact?" I always understood that a chromosome would fit the bill due to the unlikelihood of it coming together by chance and coding for the myriad of complex biological functions that it does. Can you point me to an example of where someone has calculated the CSI of a chromosome? By the way, no biologist would suggest that a modern chromosome came together by chance. Any valid calculation of CSI would need to take into account known evolutionary mechanisms.Mustela Nivalis
January 14, 2010
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mikev6 (), "There may (or may not) be an “Edge to Evolution” – there is no edge to ID." First, what's with the "or may not" bit? Are you not giving naturalism a way out? Is naturalism testable as long as "or may not" is part of the statement? Put this into your naturalistic pipe for a bit: The HAR1F gene is different in 18 non-contiguous point mutations in humans than it is in non-human animals. Within the vertibrates the thing is painfully consistent, where there are three point mutations that seem to be "unlocked", and wander between species, but the other 100 or so mutations are always the same. As Behe has demonstrated that even a pair of simultaneous mutations is beyond the reasonable edge of evolution, how do you explain 18 points. Oh, I know, you argue that they may not have been simultaneous. However, we have the evidence of all of those other vertibrates to show that all single point mutations must be deleterous. Further, the lock and key nature of the gene's folding requires that the mutations, or at least a majority of them, had to have happened simultaneously. That, my friend, falsifies a naturalistic explanation. The only way I can see to get from animal HAR1F to human HAR1F is with a technique called "strategy". That's how we humans do it.bFast
January 14, 2010
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I don't see a large philosophical or theological gap between theistic evolution and common descent ID. What does common descent ID demand theologically that theistic evolution will not allow?fmarotta
January 14, 2010
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johnnyb @ 24, thank you for answering with a quantitative example. It's refreshing to be dealing with specifics.
Log2(base pairs in human genome) - Log2(base pairs in search region) = genome contributes 22 bits to the search
Pardon my ignorance of biology, but I don't see what's being calculated here. If the first term is the endogenous information, then that would indicate that the search space is the set of base pairs in the genome (approx 3,000,000,000?) and that the target is a certain base pair. If the second term is the exogenous information, then that would indicate that the active information in question reduces the search space from the whole genome to 600 base pairs. Am I on the right track?R0b
January 14, 2010
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Mustela Nivalis --My goal in asking is to understand CSI well enough to implement CSI measurement in software, to see if known evolutionary mechanisms are, in fact, unable to generate it. Start with the symbols used by the programming language of your choice, generate them randomly, when you get something that compiles, latch it and continue. Let us know how you do :-)tribune7
January 14, 2010
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mikev6:
So is there any organization of the fossil record that ID doesn’t support?
ID is silent on the fossil record. Wouldn’t the designer(s) be limited by physical constraints?
Not necessarily.
Yet all designers are so constrained.
The goal of this site is to ensure that science includes both the material and non-material – the concern being that considering only the material may lead us to miss the right answer in searching for explanations.
The debate is blind and undirected vs purposeful and directed processes. If nature, operating freely suffices as an explanation then we do not infer a designer as one is not required.
Ahh, so if Nature can explain it, then it’s Natural; otherwise, Design?
No- first I did NOT say "nature". Can Nature explain itself? However if nature, operating freely can account for something then we do not infer design because there isn't any requirement for a designer.
What if there’s an explanation from Nature we haven’t found yet? How would we distinguish the two? And how is this not an “ID-of-the-gaps” argument?
Science does not and cannot wait for what the future may of may uncover. Scientists have to go with the current level of knowledge available. Also to reach a design inference it is not enough that nature, operating freely cannot account for it. There also has to be a specification. This is all in "The Design Inference" and "No Free Lunch"- it's called the explanatory filter.
In the original post it was suggested that ID can support both common descent and “not-common descent”.
ID is silent on the matter of Common Descent.Joseph
January 14, 2010
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johnnyb:
The evidence is that tissues, limbs, and organs tend to be fully-functional the first time we find them.
I'll remember this the next time I break my tailbone. :-)
Whether this happened through common descent or special creation is not evident from the fossils. What is evident is that there was a teleological principle involved in keeping the holistic unity of the organism.
So is there any organization of the fossil record that ID doesn't support? I could argue that the order of speciation was determined by alphabetical order and ID would still support that too.mikev6
January 14, 2010
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Joseph:
Wouldn’t the designer(s) be limited by physical constraints?
Not necessarily. The goal of this site is to ensure that science includes both the material and non-material - the concern being that considering only the material may lead us to miss the right answer in searching for explanations. We have to be open-minded enough to consider an agent or agents that either transcends the material or is so technologically advanced that it seems so to us.
If nature, operating freely suffices as an explanation then we do not infer a designer as one is not required.
Ahh, so if Nature can explain it, then it's Natural; otherwise, Design? What if there's an explanation from Nature we haven't found yet? How would we distinguish the two? And how is this not an "ID-of-the-gaps" argument? In the original post it was suggested that ID can support both common descent and "not-common descent". Those are pretty much mutually exclusive explanations - which one does ID fit better? If the answer is "both" then we're back to the thought that it's so broad that it can explain anything.mikev6
January 14, 2010
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Lenoxus, ID is about the DESIGN not the designer.Joseph
January 14, 2010
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Mustela Nivalis- aka weasel man,
My goal in asking is to understand CSI well enough to implement CSI measurement in software, to see if known evolutionary mechanisms are, in fact, unable to generate it.
"Evolutionary mechanisms" don't have anything to do with it. Blind and undirected processes is what ID argues against. To measure information in biology just see what is required functionality. Then if enough information is required (500 bits) then CSI is present. However all that is moot because all YOU have to do is demonstrate that blind and undirected processes can account for it- IOW all you have to do is to actually start substantiating the claims made by YOUR position and ID would go away. So why don't you people just go out and do that?Joseph
January 14, 2010
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"then why shouldn’t naturalists be able to develop theories regarding this initial arrangement?" There's no reason why they _couldn't_, but the motivation for naturalism is to avoid such implications.johnnyb
January 13, 2010
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johnnyb:
“Still, if that were the case, I fail to see why chemists and biologists would need to resort to non-naturalism to account for anything” What about the initial arrangement of atoms?
If there is nothing inherently non-naturalistic about those atoms and their arrangement, then naturalism is free to postulate and "study" them (in a theoretical sense). Physicists right now are trying to work out what the initial moments of the Big Bang were like, down to the tiniest detail. Naturalism does not hamper them in doing so. That a designer might be required for that atomic arrangement to have existed in no way precludes one from naturalistically finding such an arrangement to have existed — the arrangement would not be "invisible" to naturalism, because, despite its origin, it would have solely natural properties. I might refuse to believe that trees produce sap, but that won't render me incapable of sensing and studying maple syrup — I'll just have an alternate hypothesis for its origin (or call its existence a brute fact). I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, if all the info was "statically" there from the beginning, with no further design involvement required, then why shouldn't naturalists be able to develop theories regarding this initial arrangement? Because evo-biologists, despite what they might claim, can't actually ever believe in "information"?Lenoxus
January 13, 2010
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Read your excellent paper JohnnyB. Darwinists unlike IDers take for granted the the coordination factor - states that have to be kept track of to produce the holistic effect. A very simple tape player, could be done like so in c: #define fastRightState 0 #define fastLeftState 1 #define slowLeftState 2 #define slowRightState 3 #define stopLeftState 4 #define stopRightState 5 state = slowRightState;//initial start state int main(void) { while(1) { switch(state) { case stopLeftState: if(key_control(0)) { state = slowLeftState; } else { //stopSideA(); } break; case stopRightState: if(key_control(0)) { state = slowRightState; } else { //StopSideB(); } break; case slowLeftState: if(key_control(1)) { state = stopLeftState; } else if(key_control(3)) { state = slowRightState; } else if(key_control(2)) { state = fastRightState; } else { //PlaySideA(); } break; case slowRightState: if(key_control(1)) { state = slowRightState; } else if(key_control(3)) { state = slowLeftState; } else if(key_control(2)) { state = fastLeftState; } else { //PlaySideB(); } break; case fastLeftState: if(key_control(0)) { state = slowRightState; } if(key_control(1)) { state = stopRightState; } if(key_control(3)) { state = fastRightState; } else { //RewindSideA(); } break; case fastRightState: if(key_control(0)) { state = slowLeftState; } if(key_control(1)) { state = stopLeftState; } if(key_control(3)) { state = fastLeftState; } else { //RewindSideB(); } break; default: // break; } } }computerist
January 13, 2010
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"Does this mean that (perhaps) the positioning of each particle of the Big Bang was exactly such that bacteria would ultimately develop flagella?" Yes. "Still, if that were the case, I fail to see why chemists and biologists would need to resort to non-naturalism to account for anything" What about the initial arrangement of atoms? "if the universe was always such that life was guaranteed to occur, then abiogenesis is no problem — and the signs of this “guaranteeing” would be just as visible to naturalists." Why? Since it has already occurred, there is no need for those elements to still remain. The problem is that the naturalists assume that the laws themselves can work without information. The origin of self-replication is easy if we can prespecify the arrangements of parts (I say "easy" - "straightforward" is probably a better description). The reason naturalists are having problems is that they are unwilling to look at scenarios in which information already existed. "Therefore, I presume that ID accepts that there are at least some random mutations." You are correct. "Therefore, a genome which was “front-loaded” would have to be able to somehow anticipate those random mutations, or be shielded from them." Yes. Again, see the Yockey paper. I don't have it in front of me, and if you really need the answer that badly I'll try to look it up tonight.johnnyb
January 13, 2010
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"johnnyb, are you of the opinion that the concept of “active information” lends itself to quantification in biology? How do we objectively determine the target and the search space?" For some circumstances, absolutely. Somatic Hypermutation is a perfect place to look at this. Basically, in your immune system, after recombination of V, D, and J elements, additional mutation occurs to refine the affinity of the antibody to the antigen. A good review of this is here. So, basically, during somatic hypermutation, only the antibody is heavily mutated. Likewise, pretty much only the variable region (the region which attaches to the antigen) is mutated and the constant region (the region which attaches to the cell) is not mutated at all. So, the immunoglobulin is about 1,200 nucleotides. The mutation occurs in the right half of the right gene, which limits the scope to about 600 nucleotides. Therefore, a back-of-the-envelope calculation puts the active information in that search at least at about 22 bits. [[ Overly Simplistic (leaning towards fewer bits) Calculation: Log2(base pairs in human genome) - Log2(base pairs in search region) = genome contributes 22 bits to the search]]johnnyb
January 13, 2010
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Mustela Nivalis --By “unique characteristics” do you mean Dembski’s Complex Specified Information? CSI is certainly a respectable attempt to quantify those characteristics. Does it succeed? I can't see how it fails but if it should the unique characteristics of design would still remain -- which should be obvious -- and new attempts would be made to articulate them. If so, do you have an example of CSI being calculated for a real world biological artifact? I always understood that a chromosome would fit the bill due to the unlikelihood of it coming together by chance and coding for the myriad of complex biological functions that it does.tribune7
January 13, 2010
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johnnyb: Sometime after I submitted my comment about the "conflict" between phys- and bio-ID, I realized my errors — under ID, life is simply so "out there" that it indeed requires at least two interventions, one for hardware and one for software. Thank you for pointing them out. That said, I fail to understand what it meant by the information content of the "arrangement of matter". Does this mean that (perhaps) the positioning of each particle of the Big Bang was exactly such that bacteria would ultimately develop flagella? Because that's a pretty darn cool idea. Still, if that were the case, I fail to see why chemists and biologists would need to resort to non-naturalism to account for anything — if the universe was always such that life was guaranteed to occur, then abiogenesis is no problem — and the signs of this "guaranteeing" would be just as visible to naturalists. The initial fine-tuning, of course, would remain an even larger problem, but that's outside the strictly biological question.
“Normally, all DNA that does not provide immediate function is distorted by mutations, so (it seems) a designer or similar non-natural phenomenon would still be required to shield those genes until they were needed.” That is a Darwinian assumption, but hasn’t really played out all that well.
I have yet to run across an ID theorist who posits that all mutations are directed. Therefore, I presume that ID accepts that there are at least some random mutations. Therefore, a genome which was "front-loaded" would have to be able to somehow anticipate those random mutations, or be shielded from them. This is not a naturalistic assumption, because it allows for the anticipating or the shielding. (The anticipating I mentioned later, as an afterthought.) As for the Hawking quote, I must say that it applies equally to the idea of a designer(s) who just happens to be predisposed to creating life — the designers "just are (the way they are)”. At some point, there's a final turtle floating in air.Lenoxus
January 13, 2010
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johnnyb, are you of the opinion that the concept of "active information" lends itself to quantification in biology? How do we objectively determine the target and the search space?R0b
January 13, 2010
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Mustela Nivalis - You are correct that CSI is difficult to quantify in living creatures. That is why most practicing ID has moved on to other notions. You should see Dembski's current work in active information, and my own work on the relationship between universality and design. These are much easier to use biologically. If you are interested in Dembski's work, see Dembski's site. If you are interested in mine, see my recent paper.johnnyb
January 13, 2010
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The amoeba is remarkable for its very large genome.
This is new to me, but on the other hand I'm no biologist. Do we have any idea of why this may be the case?h.pesoj
January 13, 2010
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jasundulle. Yes, see Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoeba_%28genus%29 "The amoeba is remarkable for its very large genome. The species Amoeba protea has 290 billion base pairs in its genome, while the related Polychaos dubium (formerly known as Amoeba dubia) has 670 billion base pairs. The human genome is small by contrast, with its count of 2.9 billion base pairs."johnnyb
January 13, 2010
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johnnyb, You said "the amoeba has 100x the number of base pairs that a human has, so the carrying capacity of genetic information for a single-cell organism is quite large." I want to make sure I got this right. Humans have, what, 3 billion base pairs? So amoebas have 300 billion base pairs in their DNA? That sounds unbelievable. I just want to confirm. Thanks!jasondulle
January 13, 2010
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Slightly off topic and sorta icky. Evidence of front-loading? I doubt it, but it makes one think. http://english.pravda.ru/science/mysteries/12-01-2010/111621-sheep_human_face-0Collin
January 13, 2010
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tribune7 at 4, "In its most basic form, all ID says is that some things are designed." Noooo. What ID says is that things that are designed have unique characteristics; these characteristics are quantifiable; and because these characteristics are quantifiable some things can conclusively be shown to have been designed. Excellent, you've come to the topic I've been trying to discuss since delurking a few weeks ago (lots of threads here go off on very long tangents). By "unique characteristics" do you mean Dembski's Complex Specified Information? If so, do you have an example of CSI being calculated for a real world biological artifact? I've read the available literature on CSI but haven't found such a detailed example. My goal in asking is to understand CSI well enough to implement CSI measurement in software, to see if known evolutionary mechanisms are, in fact, unable to generate it. If you mean something else by "unique characteristics", I'd be very interested in hearing more details.Mustela Nivalis
January 13, 2010
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Professor Davison who is mentioned in this incentive article just commented on the issue on his blog. He asked me to inform you about his opinion. For those who are interested here is the link: http://jadavison.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/th-prescribed-evolutionary-hypothesis/#comment-2569 I would recommend also Scherer's interviews. Thanks to the article I found another scientist with profound independent ideas on the evolution and Christianity. What a fresh air after reading "theistic" speculation at crypto-darwinian venue Biologos.VMartin
January 13, 2010
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mikev6 - The point is not, "what _could_ the designer do". The point is "what is there _evidence_ of the designer doing". The evidence is that tissues, limbs, and organs tend to be fully-functional the first time we find them. Whether this happened through common descent or special creation is not evident from the fossils. What is evident is that there was a teleological principle involved in keeping the holistic unity of the organism.johnnyb
January 13, 2010
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mikev6:
Once you posit an intelligent designer, all things become possible.
How so? Wouldn't the designer(s) be limited by physical constraints?
It is also possible to have a designer design things to deliberately look random.
We wouldn't infer design if that were the case. Ya see the reason for the design inference is that we do not observe randomness throughout the universe. This is all about requirements- as in what is required to produce it. If nature, operating freely suffices as an explanation then we do not infer a designer as one is not required.Joseph
January 13, 2010
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My comment at #4 is still in moderation, probably because I am new here, so this one may be delayed also, but I'd like to the comment that "ID is incompatible with the current theory of evolution...no teleology allowed." Of course, intelligent design is incompatible with a theory of unintelligent design (the current theory of evolution), but really only with the unintelligent part. The other factors, including slow changes in genomes and common descent, are, as I pointed out in my previous post, are quite compatible with a designer who guides evolution by manipulating events at the moments of conception.Aleta
January 13, 2010
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