Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID Does Not Posit Supernatural Causes

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The National Science Teachers Association (NSTA) has an official position on the nature of “science” here. For the reasons set forth below, ID proponents should have no problem with the NSTA conceptualization. The NSTA position emphasizes the following characteristics of science:

Scientific knowledge is simultaneously reliable and tentative. Having confidence in scientific knowledge is reasonable while realizing that such knowledge may be abandoned or modified in light of new evidence or reconceptualization of prior evidence and knowledge.
Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work.
Creativity is a vital, yet personal, ingredient in the production of scientific knowledge.
Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements in the production of scientific knowledge.

Many people incorrectly believe that ID runs afoul of this conceptualization of science because it violates the tenants of “naturalistic explanation” and the bar on “supernatural elements.” This is not true.

In order to understand why this is so, we must first have a proper understanding of what a “naturalistic explanation” is as opposed to a “supernatural” explanation. All the NTSA is saying here is that science operates under the strictures of methodological naturalism. Certainly this is true, and for ID to be considered science it must not appeal to supernatural explanations.

But what does it mean for an explanation to be “naturalistic”? The root wood of “naturalistic” is, of course, “natural.” My dictionary defines “natural” as “existing in or formed by nature.” The word “nature” is in turn defined as “the sum total of forces at work throughout the universe.” The word “supernatural” is defined as “of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena.”

In summary, therefore, a naturalistic explanation invokes causes that are within the “sum total of forces at work throughout the universe.” A “supernatural” explanation invokes causes that are “unexplainable by natural law or phenomena.” So far so good. The next question we must ask ourselves as we delineate a naturalistic explanation from a supernatural explanation is “what are these forces at work throughout the universe?”

Since at least Aristotle we have known that for any phenomenon its existence can be explained by the interplay of chance, necessity and agency. Very often at this point the discussion breaks down over the issue of free will. For those, such as Aristotle, who believe free will exists, “agency” is a tertium quid (a third thing) beyond chance and necessity. The metaphysical materialist on the other hand must deny the existence of free will. For the materialist, what we perceive as free will or agency is an illusion, the complex interplay of the electro-chemical processes of our brain, which are in turn caused by chance and necessity only.

But the discussion needn’t break down here, because everyone should agree that whether intelligent agents have free will or not, they do in fact leave distinctive indicia of their activities. Did the engineers who designed the space station have free will or where they compelled to design the space station by purely electro-chemical reactions in their brain that can be reduced to the interplay of chance and necessity? For our purposes here it does not matter how one answers this question, because however one answers the question, it is certainly the case that the space station was designed by an intelligent agent. And it is certainly the case that the intelligent agents who designed the space station left indicia of their design by which an observer can distinguish it from asteroids and other satellites of the Earth that were not designed by intelligent agents.

The point is that for our purposes here, we need not argue about whether intelligent agents such as humans have an immaterial free will. Whether free will exists or not, it cannot be reasonably disputed that intelligent agents leave discernable indicia of their activity.

Therefore, I am going to make a bold assumption for the sake of argument. Let us assume for the sake of argument that intelligent agents do NOT have free will, i.e., that the tertium quid does not exist. Let us assume instead, for the sake of argument, that the cause of all activity of all intelligent agents can be reduced to physical causes.

Now where are we? We are left with the conclusion that ID has no problem whatsoever positing natural causes. This is easy to see if one looks at the question in the context of analogous scientific endeavors. When a cryptologist is trying to separate information from random noise, he is detecting design. There is no need for him to assume that the code maker was other than natural. When SETI researchers look for radio signals displaying recognizable patterns, they are attempting to detect a radio signal designed by an intelligent agent. There is no reason for them to assume the agent is supernatural. When a forensics expert detects the act of a criminal, he obviously does not need to believe the criminal is a deity who acts outside of nature.

The point I am making is not controversial, or at least it shouldn’t be. Even arch-atheist Richard Dawkins agrees with me in principle. In the movie Expelled the following exchange occurred between Dawkins and Ben Stein:

Stein: What do you think is the possibility that that intelligent design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in evolution?

Dawkins: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time somewhere in the universe a civilization evolved by probably some kind of Darwinian means to a very very high level of technology and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now that is a possibility and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it is possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the detail, details of biochemistry or molecular biology. You might find a signature of some sort of designer . . . And that designer could well be a higher intelligence from elsewhere in the universe . . . But that higher intelligence would itself have had to have come about by some explicable or ultimately explicable process. It couldn’t have just jumped into existence spontaneously. That’s the point.

Thus, when detecting design, even the design of life, there is no need to assume a supernatural cause. Dawkins admits that in principle the design of life can be detected even if we posit naturalistic assumptions. And why not. As Dawkins states in the passage above, the creation of at least certain types of life is a matter of the application of sophisticated technology. That technology is beyond our present means, but with the work that some researchers are doing (e.g., Craig Venter) it is not such a stretch to believe that within a few decades humans might be able to design simple life forms. And a future researcher trying to determine whether the new life form was designed or not would be able to do so using naturalistic explanations only.

Comments
I keep hearing the phrase 'Chance, Neccesity and Agency'. As in those are the only potential explanations for the existence of any phenomenon. I'm assuming agency is another word for human intelligence. Is the difference between natural phenomenon and human artifacts always so clear cut? In some examples--for instance Mt. Rushmore--it is. But what about these examples: Homo Habilis' stone tools? beaver damns? Bird's nests? Ant colonies? Spider webs? Termite mounds? Where do you draw the line between a natural object and something that is the result of agency?lastyearon
January 21, 2011
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OT: Here is a recent podcast of a few days ago, from Reasonable Faith, of Dr William Lane Craig reflecting on his encounter with leading 'new atheist' Richard Dawkins in Mexico: Richard Dawkins Meets Dr Craig http://www.rfmedia.org/RF_audio_video/RF_podcast/Richard_Dawkins_Meets_Dr_Craig.mp3bornagain77
January 21, 2011
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of related interest: The 'Flying Spaghetti Monster' & The Evidence For God: Dr. William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqBa8b5BIqUbornagain77
January 21, 2011
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Many people incorrectly believe that ID runs afoul of this conceptualization of science because it violates the tenants of “naturalistic explanation” and the bar on “supernatural elements.” This is not true.
It's good to hear this, but why is there such a negative attitude towards methodological materialism? AFAICS, whenever ID gets scientific (e.g. Dr. Dembski's current work), it uses methodological materialism.Heinrich
January 21, 2011
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Barry, You should be an attorney! :-) It is interesting that Phil Johnson (who perhaps deserves the title The Father of the ID Movement) is a brilliant attorney. He read Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker and other "works" of this genre, and immediately recognized tactics used to defend the indefensible. He realized that Darwinism has been systematically and mysteriously excluded from standards of evidence that are required in any rigorous scientific endeavor in the hard sciences. Yet, Darwinism makes claims to represent rigorous, irrefutable, ultimate Truth. Phil immediately recognized con-artistry disguised as "science" when he saw it. I can recognize it too.GilDodgen
January 20, 2011
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PaV, I agree entirely with your post @19. Indeed, if Moses came back to part the waters, a meteorologist could use scientific methods to conclude that a supernatural event had likely occurred.StephenB
January 20, 2011
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--kairosfocus: "The real problem is the root issue is that Methodological Naturalism is a front for a priori evolutionary materialism." Yes, I think we are describing two different aspects of the same problem. You are emphasizing the Darwinist's apriori commitment to metaphysical materialism, which is smuggled in under the euphemism of methodological naturalism; I am emphasizing the irrational nature of methodological naturalism itself, which cannot withstand intellectual scrutiny even considered apart from the materialist agenda that conceived it. Put another way, I think it is important to point out both [a] the materialistic and tyrannical impulses that prompted the agenda and [b] the illogical and intellectually indefensible formulations that come out of it. I emphasize [b] because it is less well known, not because I consider it more important than [a].StephenB
January 20, 2011
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Sorry, I didn't think @10 was going to take, so I reposted @15, albeit with a few changes and clarifications.StephenB
January 20, 2011
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---Barry: “But what does it mean for an explanation to be “naturalistic”? The root wood of “naturalistic” is, of course, “natural.” My dictionary defines “natural” as “existing in or formed by nature.” The word “nature” is in turn defined as “the sum total of forces at work throughout the universe.” The word “supernatural” is defined as “of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena." I agree with your basic point. What could be more natural than using a commonly held definition to bring both sides together? Sad to say, though, Darwinists will not allow ID to define the relevant terms, which is another way of saying that they refuse to accept ID's own definition of a “natural cause” (law and/or chance). To acknowledge ID's definitions would be to give credence to its methodology. Keep in mind that evolutionary biologists emphasize the meaningless natural vs. supernatural dichotomy in order to displace ID’s meaningful [and historical] trichotomy of law, chance, and agency. If science is defined the first way, then anything that could in any way be perceived to issue forth from a Creator, or, for that matter, an immaterial human mind, is ruled out apriori. More important, by preventing ID scientists from defining their terms, Darwinists also prevent them from arguing their case. It gets worse. According to MN, neither the “Big Bang theory or SETI research qualifies as science because both violate the arbitrary rule that science must “study nature as if nature is all there is.” Of course, MN advocates throw out this same self-serving rule when discussing non-biological science because they don’t want to get laughed out of the building. [Sorry, but you violated MN by positing a universe that began in time and may require a first cause]. But they bring the rule back as a special case for the study of biology, because, well, because it is the only way to discredit countervailing evidence. It gets worse. Methodological naturalists define all things that are not “supernatural” as natural, placing human cognition, human volition, earthquakes, and tornadoes in the same causal category. Their rationale for this incredible proposition is that all these things exist, as they put it, "in nature." What that means is that the valcano that buried the artifacts of ancient Pompei must, by MN standards, be characterized as the same kind of cause that built the artifacts in the first place. In keeping with that point, the following is a true story that has been played out many times. First, I ask the MN advocate if a burglar and a tornado, both of which can cause a house to appear ransacked, are natural causes. MN: “Yes, both are natural causes because both occurred [“in nature.”] ME: “But we can distinguish the activity of a tornado from that of a burglar, so they must be different kinds of causes. A tornado does not leave footprints, selectively open dresser drawers, search for jewelry, and run off with it." MN: “Yes, they are different kinds of causes, but they are, nevertheless, both natural causes. The first is a Natural Cause of the first variety and the latter is a Natural Cause of the Second variety.” [I am not joking. This is their answer]. Thus, we enter into the wacky world of the methodological naturalist. He uses the word “natural cause” to create the illusion that he has defined his terms and to make it appear that he is talking about one kind of cause. But when another kind of cause becomes evident, he conveniently, and for the first time, divides the one cause into two causes, in the name of one cause. Once again, he violates the law of non-contradiction and continues on as sleek as ever, completely unable to comprehend his descent into intellectual quicksand. In effect, here is what the Darwinists are saying: “You [ID scientists] are restricted to a study of the natural world, and, although I have no idea what I mean by that term, which means that I have no idea of what I mean by my rule, you are, nevertheless, condemned if you violate it.” All this is possible because we allow them to frame the issue in terms of “natural vs. supernatural” It’s a basic rule of communication. Whoever frames the issue usually wins the debate. It’s a losing game and we should not play it. As soon as we make them define their terms, Darwinists and TEs fold like a lawn chair. As one of the more thoughtful advocates for MN admitted on the “First Things” blog, “It seems that defining what is “natural” is one of the tasks before us.” Indeed!StephenB
January 20, 2011
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This might seem like I'm bringing in something from ‘left field’, yet, as I see things, the actual instance of divine intervention highlights the very issues involved in the supernatural/natural boundary. Exhibit A: The Tilma of Juan Diego. According to witnesses, of highly approved character, the image on the Tilma came about in a miraculous way. Further, scientific examination of the image could not come up with any way of explaining the image's origin. Well, there you have it: an actual object, with no natural explanation for its origin: isn't this exactly the situation confronting the ID-Darwinism debate? That is, "actual" DNA exists; but what are the origins of that DNA? Darwinian (neo-Darwinian) mechanisms are almost absolutely impotent in their attempt to explain the "evolution" of DNA. Since there is such a parallel between these two objects, i.e., the Tilma and DNA, the intellectual understanding of one should apply to the other as well. So, what do we have: (1) We have an image that is definitely "designed". To deny this is the same as denying that wall-paintings in caves were not designed---though their creators are not known. (2) We have an image that was formed by some kind of "light" phenomena. Scientists discovered that the image intensity is inversely proportional to the distance away from the source of this "light". (3) We have an image formed in a way that falls outside human agency. There is no known human means of producing such an image. (4) But, we nevertheless have an image that is very real, and very amenable to scientific study. Anyone can, as I did, travel to Mexico City and see it with their own eyes. What about DNA? (1) We have a substance that acts within living cells in the same manner as a computer program inside a processor. IOW, it appears “designed”, even though the creator is not known. (2) We have a substance that was formed via chemical bonds. (3) We have a substance that falls outside of human agency. Despite Craig Venter’s “creation” (which is no more than a slightly adjusted, pre-existing genome), it is completely beyond human means to design a genome, and/or, a processor that rises to the level of complexity seen in animal genomes. (4) We have, nevertheless, a substance that can be taken apart and put back together, and very amenable to scientific study. Darwinists say: “Well, life exists. We know that it happened. So don’t talk to us about how improbable it is.” Well, we have an image. We know it exists. BUT…..we don’t know how it came into being. Their argument that because something exists means, therefore, that it came about in a way only explainable via natural causes, does not stand. Darwinists say: “Well, we don’t know anything about the Designer, so we can’t know anything about detecting the Designer’s methods. His design is invisible to us.” Well, we don’t know how the Designer brought about the Tilma of Juan Diego, but no one in their right mind can deny that it is designed. Thus, this argument is rendered moot. Darwinists ask: “Well, tell us, how did the Designer change DNA. Did He move nucleotide bases one-by-one?” Well, current human technology can tell us nothing about how the design present on the Tilma came about. But, evidently, divine intervention can have physical, and enduring, consequences. Bottom line: if scientists are unable to determine the divine origin of the Tilma of Juan Diego (because it falls beyond their ability to detect what has happened), this doesn’t preclude God from acting within the natural order---which is how they want to frame the argument; rather, it simply points out the limits of science. The Tilma of Juan Diego points to a Designer who doesn’t exist within the limits of the created order. But it likewise remains testimony to some kind of agency at work within the created order. Though the Designer may be invisible, His “works” are not. They’re very visible. It seems to me that to deny that the Creator could fashion a physical world, and could fashion life itself, is to deny that anything like the Tilma of Juan Diego could exist. Just because the methods used to either bring about “changed” DNA or the Tilma of Juan Diego lie beyond anything that science can demonstrate, doesn’t mean that either DNA of the Tilma are not objects which are products of supernatural agency. The Tilma exists. We can go and look at it any time we want. P.S. The same “light” phenomena evident in the Tilma is found as well in the Shroud of Turin.PaV
January 20, 2011
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SB: The real problem is the root issue is that Methodological Naturalism is a front for a priori evolutionary materialism. Once that is seen, the matter gets clarified: anything not acceptable to evolutionary materialism is supernatural -- thus, by definition unreal -- and verboten. But to admit to materialism is not only impolitic [cf Lewontin], but also to open oneself to the well-deserved charges of question begging, censorship, ideologisation of science and so forth. Which is what leads to the obfuscations and -- in the main rhetorical and/or worldview/ agenda level -- confusions [and linked polarisations] I spoke of above. To disentangle the mess, we have to start with what is plain and directly empirically supported: natural vs artificial, with the natural tracing to chance and necessity and the artificial to intelligence. Once the background principle of observable signs is acknowledged, then we are well on the way, hence the analysis of the inference to design of a few days ago. Onlookers, guess why there was a studious tippy-toe-ing around that post? [No prizes.] GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 20, 2011
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Wait, does the dictionary use the word "universe" to describe nature? Isn't that a tad circular?Collin
January 20, 2011
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I greatly appreciate this post. I've been waiting for it for years. Having said that, I still feel like creationists do science. I would have the term science include all intellectual endeavours that rely heavily on observation and tight reasoning. Assuming creationists do that, I have no problem with them positing a supernatural Creator. But ID does NOT posit a supernatural source of design, unless you believe that intelligence is supernatural. Which would not be unreasonable, imho.Collin
January 20, 2011
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---“But what does it mean for an explanation to be “naturalistic”? The root wood of “naturalistic” is, of course, “natural.” My dictionary defines “natural” as “existing in or formed by nature.” The word “nature” is in turn defined as “the sum total of forces at work throughout the universe.” The word “supernatural” is defined as “of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena." I agree with your basic point. What could be more natural than using a commonly held definition to bring both sides together? Sad to say, though, Darwinists will not allow us to use our own definition of nature, which is why they will not respect ID’s own definition of a “natural cause” (law and/or chance). To acknowledge our definitions is to give credence to our methodology. What matters is not what we mean by natural, but rather what our adversaries mean term by natural, and, as it turns out, they don’t know what they mean. Keep in mind that evolutionary biologists [and atheist cosmologists] went out of their way to define science in terms of this so-called natural vs. supernatural dichotomy in order to invalidate, and reframe the issue away from ID’s legitimate [and well-recognized] trichotomy of law, chance, and agency. If science is defined the first way, then anything that could be perceived to issue forth from an immaterial mind, or God, or anything else other than matter/energy, is ruled out apriori. More important, as indicated, the rule forbids ID from providing its own definition of a natural cause and therefore arguing its case. The researcher must work with his definitions, not those imposed on him by his critics. It gets worse. According to MN, neither the “Big Bang theory, or for that matter, SETI research qualifies as science because both violate the arbitrary rule that science must “study nature as if nature is all there is.” Of course, MN advocates abrogate their own self-serving rule when discussing cosmology because they don’t want to get laughed out of the building. [Sorry, but you violated MN by positing a universe that may have begun in time and therefore may require a first cause]. But they bring it back as a special case for the study of biology, because they are secure in the knowledge that cosmologists or SETI researchers don’t really care if Darwinists bully ID people with their nonsense. It gets worse—much, much worse. Methodological naturalism defines all things that are not “supernatural” as natural, placing human cognition, human volition, earthquakes, and tornadoes in the same causal category. Indeed, everything is then classified as a natural cause—everything. So, whatever caused Hurricane Katrina, one gathers, is the same kind of cause that generated my written paragraph because, as the Darwinists instruct us, both things occurred “in nature,” whatever that means. So, if all causes are natural, then there is no way of distinguishing the cause of all the artifacts found in ancient Pompei from the cause of the volcano that buried them. Indeed, by that standard, the archeologist cannot even declare that Pompei ever existed as a civilization, since the apparent evidence of human activity may well not have been caused by human activity at all. The two kinds of causes are either substantially different or they are not. If they are different, as ID rightly insists, then those differences can be identified. If they are not different, as the methodological naturalists claim, then those differences cannot be identified, which means that whatever causes a volcano to erupt is comparable to whatever caused Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony to erupt. I have, by the way, pressed the methodological naturalists on this very point. First, let me point out that they have NO definition for a natural cause. Second, when I push them to the wall and ask the relevant questions, they descend into total irrationality. The following is a true story that has been played out many times. First, I ask the MN advocate if a burglar and a tornado are both natural causes. MN: “Yes, both are natural causes because both occurred “in nature.” ME: “But we can distinguish the activity of a tornado from that of a burglar, so they must be different kinds of causes.” MN: “Yes, they are different kinds of causes, but they are, nevertheless, both natural causes. The first is a Natural Cause of the first variety and the latter is a Natural Cause of the Second variety.” [I am not joking. This is their answer]. Thus, we enter into the wacky world of the methodological naturalist. He uses the word “natural cause” to create the illusion that he has defined his terms and to make it appear that he is talking about one kind of cause. But when another kind of cause becomes evident, he conveniently, and for the first time, divides the one cause into two causes, under the name of one cause. Once again, he violates the law of non-contradiction and continues on as sleek as ever, completely unable to comprehend his descent into intellectual quicksand. In effect, here is what the Darwinists are saying: “You [ID scientists] are restricted to the study of natural causes, and, although I have no idea what I mean by that term, which means that I have no idea of what I mean by my rule, you are, nevertheless, condemned if you violate it.”StephenB
January 20, 2011
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kairosfocus, The issue of “natural” vs “supernatural” is rather ill-defined indeed, and is usually loaded with rhetorical issues and agendas, as has already been exposed with respect to NSTA, and NAS and Wikipedia. Such tainted terms should be dropped form scientific and educational or related policy contexts. Honestly, this I agree with - and it's relevant to what I said. I made no comment whatsoever on whether it's appropriate or not to infer design in one or another given scenario, so everything else just passes on by me. Important, sure, just not what I'm addressing here. The fallout from realizing that "natural" and "supernatural" are poorly defined is considerable enough on its own.nullasalus
January 20, 2011
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Null: Pardon, but I think it is quite clear enough [cf points 1, 2, 4 - 8 here], that:
a: material causes,constituting
(i) chance causal factors manifesting as credibly undirectd contingency in statistical/probability-driven patterns, and (ii) causal factors of mechanical necessity manifestingas observable regularities under similar initial conditions
as well as: b: ART-ificial causes manifesting as intelligently, intentionally directed contingency are both: c: empirically observed, while d: typically leaving well-tested and reliable observable signs, inter alia law-like regularities, statistical.probabilistic scatter fitting with certain distributions and functionally specific complex organisation and associated information.
It is quite reasonable, from our tendency to contrast "natural" and "artificial" -- e.g. on food labels -- that we assign material factors [chance and necessity] to NATURE, and intelligent or intentional causes to ART or DESIGN. Where, "intelligence" and "intent" are interpreted by reference to known intelligent agents, such as ourselves. The issue of "natural" vs "supernatural" is rather ill-defined indeed, and is usually loaded with rhetorical issues and agendas, as has already been exposed with respect to NSTA, and NAS and Wikipedia. Such tainted terms should be dropped form scientific and educational or related policy contexts. They are appropriate to philosophical discussions, which can be informed by scientific findings, e.g. the significance of the evident fine-tuning of our observed cosmos -- let's focus on the import of the case of water and its constituent atoms in light of what we have known about nucleosynthesis of C and O since at least 1953 -- has obvious import for that which lies beyond the natural-physical, matter-energy world we inhabit. When the issue of cosmological design is adequately resolved, then the super- natural [in the sense of beyond nature] can be clarified. But, it seems that the real problem is that the evidence there points a bit too strongly in directions the evolutionary materialistic establishment does not want to go, and has proved willing to resort to some pretty drastic and indefensible measures to avoid. In short the problem is that the scientific discourse is being poisoned by an ideological agenda, not that he scientific matters are unclear in themselves. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 20, 2011
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My dictionary defines “natural” as “existing in or formed by nature.” The word “nature” is in turn defined as “the sum total of forces at work throughout the universe.” The word “supernatural” is defined as “of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena.” I agree with much of what you say in your post (Really, it's one thing I've pointed out repeatedly to ID critics.) There's nothing about ID in and of itself which requires talk of miracles or supernatural. But I think those definitions of 'nature', 'natural' and 'supernatural' highlight a bigger problem: They are ridiculously vague. And I don't think this is a problem with the source itself - you just go to the SEP entry on 'naturalism' and you'll see them explicitly try to avoid defining the concept. Would God or God's will be part of that 'sum total of forces at work throughout the universe'? If God exists, do we consider God part of the universe or outside of it? Would a 'mother universe' that spawns other universes be supernatural, or do we just redefine 'universe' to include that as well? Are natural laws explainable by natural law or phenomena? Are brute facts supernatural? Wouldn't just about every polytheistic pantheon (and therefore anything they did) qualify as 'natural' under these definitions too? I think this murkiness is almost insurmountable, and ends up leading to the problem of people getting by with saying "Okay, so the definition is muddled. But I'll know (natural/supernatural) when I see it." Which in turn leads to the claim that ID always involves the supernatural, since that muddle makes the words conveniently elastic.nullasalus
January 20, 2011
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F/N 2: ID proposes material [ = necessity + chance] and artificial [= intelligent] causes. Each of these is empirically warranted, and each often leaves observationally identifiable, characteristic traces that can be used to warrant the inference process whereby a subject-observer observes a pattern of signs and infers a causing object, on a warrant:
I: [si] --> O, on W
None of this requires grand a priori metaphysical impositions. Thus, without begging questions, we may infer from sign to signified causal factor, even in cases where we did not directly observe the causal process, but may only infer from its signs. Thus,these inferences on signs can serve to warrant conclusions about unobserved causes. Even, in the deep past of origins.kairosfocus
January 20, 2011
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2nd 0: Why not look here at the foundations of the design inference, and come back to us on whether design violates things like the 2nd law of thermodynamics (which was developed in large part through study of designed objects, namely steam engines. Cf 201 initial level tech discussion here. [And yes, that is Appendix I my always linked through my handle.]) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 20, 2011
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F/N: Here is where in a "They said it" post, I addressed the NSTA's position and attempted radical redefinition of science. Previously, I addressed the link between naturalism and evolutionary materialism here. I believe that these linked posts, the concerns they highlight, and the facts and reasoning they advance, will be a useful backdrop to the matters Mr Arrington raises above.kairosfocus
January 20, 2011
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Somehow I have the impression that you just reduced ID to an alternative of abiogenese. But anyway - maybe we should start with something more basic. Is a design event something that you would in colloquial terms call a miracle? In other words, does the design process violate the laws of nature? I would be interested in particular in the law of conversation of mass (chemically), the law of conversation energy (first law of thermodynamics) and the second law of thermodynamics.second opinion
January 20, 2011
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Here is the video clip of Dawkins and Stein: Richard Dawkins Vs. Ben Stein - The UFO Interview - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4134259/ "The presence of a creative deity in the universe is clearly a scientific hypothesis. Indeed, it is hard to imagine a more momentous hypothesis in all of science." Richard Dawkins https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/free-to-think-why-scientific-integrity-matters-by-caroline-crocker/ OT: Check out the Cool Hologram derived from 3-D information on the Turin Shroud: http://rameshchidambaram.com/bornagain77
January 20, 2011
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From Uncommon Descent March 9,2010:
RICHARD DAWKINS: The implication you make is that there’s something about religion which is personal and upon which evidence doesn’t have any bearing. Now, as I scientist I care passionately about the truth. I think that the existence of a supreme being – a supernatural supreme being – is a scientific issue. Either there is a God or there isn’t. Either there are gods or there are no gods. That is a scientific issue. Yes, it’s a supremely important scientific question. If the universe was created by an intelligence, then we are looking at an entirely different kind of scientific theory than if the universe came into existence by natural means. If God or gods had something to do with the creation of life, then we’re looking at a totally different kind of biology. So I think you can’t just say religion and science have nothing to do with each other. Science can get on and you let people have their own religious – of course you let people believe whatever they like. But you cannot say that science and religion are completely separate because religion makes scientific claims. It certainly makes scientific claims about miracles, and you cannot reconcile an authentic approach to science with a belief in miracles or, I suspect, with a belief in supernatural creation. At least the very least you should say is that this is a scientific question.
Although I don't unerstand what he means by "...if the universe came into existence by natural means." Natural means only exist in nature and cannot account for its origins. Science only cares about reality, as in the reality behind the existence of what it is we are observing. And the people who try to limit science have an anti-science agenda, ie they do not care about reality. Reality will be whatever they tell us it is.Joseph
January 20, 2011
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