Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID Found in DNA

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Researchers at Brigham Young University shaped DNA strands into the letters BYU, reported Live Science.  Let’s have a little fun with this clever achievement (an indisputable case of intelligent design) with some thought experiments that make use of ID reasoning.

  • Suppose instead of forming the DNA into letter shapes, they used a code with the existing bases arranged in triplets: AAA = A, AAC = B, AAG = C, AAT =  D, and so forth.  Cracking the code would reveal the letters BYU.
  • Suppose they spelled out “Brigham Young University” in full using this code and signed their names with it.  Now they’re not only approaching the Universal Probability Bound, they are tightening the independently verifiable specification.
  • Suppose instead they made a gene that used the existing DNA transcription and translation systems to produce a string of amino acids that, after exiting the ribosome, folded spontaneously into the shapes of the letters BYU.
  • Now they get serious and try to do something useful.  They engineer a gene that has a function.  It codes for an enzyme that produces a cancer-fighting substance.

In all these cases, ID was the indisputably the cause.  Would an observer need to know the identity of the designers to detect the design?  How much more would ID be the correct inference when a designer can engineer a whole system of genes that can grow a cell into an organism that can interact with its fellow organisms to engineer the letters BYU out of the building blocks of which they themselves are composed?

Some interesting philosophical questions can ensue from this discussion.  Did the researchers intervene in nature?  Did they use miracles?  Would an observer conclude a miracle had occurred?  If one grants that ID caused the BYU case, would it be logical to assume the designers (the BYU researchers) were themselves products of chance and necessity?  Is human ID an emergent property of matter in motion?  How would matter in motion know that?

Comments
Joseph,
”People who refuse to talk about their position are usually trolls. ”
Ad-hominems are not valid response in a civil discussion. Is this how you usually defend you assertions? I have stated my position in reference to the subject of this thread. There is no need to bring in any other points at this moment to cloud the topic. Again, please try to keep within topic or in reference to any claims made by those on this thread.
”I don’t like feeding trolls.”
This sounds more like an excuse for when you can’t support your own claims.
”Also I refuted your claim of meaningful information- it is NOT in the eye of the beholder. Meaningful information is NOT imagined information. .”
You still have not refuted my point. I have shown many examples where people find what they believe are meaningful information (supporting an intelligence origin) in random data from natural and mechanical processes. It does not matter if the information is actually meaningful or not. MY POSITION is that claiming that meaningful information alone alludes to an intelligent origin alone is not enough; you also need other evidence separate from the information to support the claim to. If you cannot produce outside evidence, then the claimed information found could be completely subjective, based on assumptions, a hoax, or a misunderstanding, to name a few. ~GIMIGIMI
September 23, 2009
September
09
Sep
23
23
2009
08:13 AM
8
08
13
AM
PDT
Joseph, Cutoff point?Moseph
September 23, 2009
September
09
Sep
23
23
2009
08:06 AM
8
08
06
AM
PDT
Site Admins, Have I been banned from the site then? I don't mind, but it'd be nice if you let the people still responding to me like Joseph know that I'm unable to reply to them. We would not want them thinking that I've got no comeback to their witty reply's would we?Moseph
September 23, 2009
September
09
Sep
23
23
2009
08:02 AM
8
08
02
AM
PDT
What digits in Pi are random? Is the first digit (3) latched or can it change depending on the time? What about the decimal point? Is it always going to be after the first digit or is it floating- depending on the time and wind? (end sarcasm) But anyway I understand that the cutoff point picked can be random. IOW if we asked 1,000 people to give a value for Pi we could predict that they wouldn't all be the same.Joseph
September 23, 2009
September
09
Sep
23
23
2009
07:40 AM
7
07
40
AM
PDT
Joseph: pardon. Since values of Pi and the rules of place value decimal nos do not correlate nicely [as pi is not just irrational but transcendental], we get an effective [pseudo-]random digit generator. That's like my dad's trick for getting random numbers out of digits in the phone directory, from the old days where random number tables were not easy to hand for statistics! (BTW: this is one way to get an effectively chance result, or at least one having the stochastic parameters of a chance result: clash two or more uncorrelated cause-effect streams. AKA, stage an accident -- what Plato discussed in the Laws Bk X, c 360 BC.) But of course, the digits of pi come from a perfectly determined algorithmic source, and we can generate it with any one of several classic series, to any desired degree of precision. (One reason not to use pi etc in your friendly local encrypting system! Go for sky noise, or compensated zener noise, and if you want you can then feed that through a seed of a pseudo-random no generator for a bit. And of course one of my little challeges to the chance folks is to get 1,000 bits of functionally specific algorithmic or linguistic info out of such a chance process. Y'know, write some Word files or a short Pascal pgm . . . ) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 23, 2009
September
09
Sep
23
23
2009
07:06 AM
7
07
06
AM
PDT
Moseph, Pi is a mathematical CONSTANT. IOW it is far from random.Joseph
September 23, 2009
September
09
Sep
23
23
2009
06:01 AM
6
06
01
AM
PDT
GIMI:
Why are you in such a hurry to get me to talk about my position?
People who refuse to talk about their position are usually trolls. I don't like feeding trolls. Also I refuted your claim of meaningful information- it is NOT in the eye of the beholder. Meaningful information is NOT imagined information.Joseph
September 23, 2009
September
09
Sep
23
23
2009
05:57 AM
5
05
57
AM
PDT
Oops, I forgot to put my response to this Joseph. This was referring to my position.
” That way we could compare what I posted to that.
Why are you in such a hurry to get me to talk about my position? Right now I’m just talking about my position concerning thing said on this thread. Lets take care of what is currently on the table. You can comment on the things I have already said and will post in further comments. ~GIMIGIMI
September 23, 2009
September
09
Sep
23
23
2009
05:34 AM
5
05
34
AM
PDT
” Then you have issues.”
Um, yes.
” That sounds like your position. .”
My position? I don’t think I clearly stated my position here. The topic here is meaningful information and the unsupported claims you’ve made on this thread. Let stick to the subject.
” Any time you want to come over and debate me, I will gladly oblige.”
We’re doing find here having a civil discussion. Why would we need to move to your blog, or engage in a debate over the matters?
” And it is very telling that you cannot provide a testable hypothesis for your position.
Speaking of telling, please tell me what my position is and point out as to where I stated it on this thread.
” That way we could compare what I posted to that.
Joseph, I noticed you also are from New England(NE) I’m from little ole RI but work in the Bay State. Which corner of NE do you come from? ~GIMIGIMI
September 23, 2009
September
09
Sep
23
23
2009
05:26 AM
5
05
26
AM
PDT
One that living organisms are not reducible to matter, energy, chance and necessity. Two that information- meaningful information- can arise without agency involvement.
And how would you suggest that those claims could be refuted?
The same way I have been saying for years. 1- Demonstrate that living organisms are so reducible 2- Show that meaningful information can arise without agency involvement A first-grtader could have figured that out. So what is you problem Moseph? But usually we look for well-traveled trails, scat, bedding, fur on branches, broken branches, moss scraped off of a stone- things that nature, operating freely couldn’t do.
So if nature operating freely can’t break a branch what can it do?
Nature, operating freely can break a branch. So can agencies. Both leave behind traces of their involvement. But someone like you couldn't tell the difference.Joseph
September 23, 2009
September
09
Sep
23
23
2009
04:49 AM
4
04
49
AM
PDT
Moseph:
And what are your plans for testing your hypothesis?
Already tested. I even put the tests in the hypothesis. I included falsifivations. But anyway what are you plans to support you position? None whatsoever? Meaningful information is NOT what one person thinks he sees. It can be tested to see if it is really there.
Then a demonstration is called for.
OK I will meet you down the street in 10 minutes...Joseph
September 23, 2009
September
09
Sep
23
23
2009
04:44 AM
4
04
44
AM
PDT
GIMI:
I follow the link you provided to your blog and do not see any valid support of ID and your claim that it is testable.
Then you have issues.
What I do see is unsupported assertions, assumptions and wishful thinking.
That sounds like your position.
You have not clearly thought things out before you posted them on your blog.
Any time you want to come over and debate me, I will gladly oblige. And it is very telling that you cannot provide a testable hypothesis for your position. That way we could compare what I posted to that.Joseph
September 23, 2009
September
09
Sep
23
23
2009
04:41 AM
4
04
41
AM
PDT
Joseph, I follow the link you provided to your blog and do not see any valid support of ID and your claim that it is testable. What I do see is unsupported assertions, assumptions and wishful thinking. You have not clearly thought things out before you posted them on your blog. Instead of trying to show what you believe supports ID and demonstrates that it is a testable hypothesis, please direct me to the papers and the research done by scientist currently investigating ID that support what you claim. Thanks! ~GIMIGIMI
September 23, 2009
September
09
Sep
23
23
2009
04:33 AM
4
04
33
AM
PDT
Joseph
Notice it has something you can’t provide- a testable hypothesis.
And what are your plans for testing your hypothesis? None whatsoever? I thought as much.
Meaningful information is NOT what one person thinks he sees. It can be tested to see if it is really there.
Then a demonstration is called for. Please go right ahead. Will this information be measured in FSCI, or if not what units will you be using?Moseph
September 22, 2009
September
09
Sep
22
22
2009
05:51 AM
5
05
51
AM
PDT
GIMI, I have it from an authority that he uses his publications in YEC journals to satisfy his university's publication mandate. Strawman argumnets? 1- "ID says things are too complex and therefor must have been designed." 2- ID is Creationism (in a cheap tuxedo)
The arguments supporting ID have been few and well refuted, but I keep hearing the same ones like a skipping record.
People THINK they have refited some arguments. However upon closer inspection they did nothing.
It has been well demonstrated as to how information can accumulate through mutation and natural selection.
No it hasn't. Natural selection reduces variation. Which means it reduces information. Fossils cannot tells us anything about a mechanism. As Dr Behe said evidence for UCD is not evidence for the mechanisms. Also the vast majority of the fossil record is of marine inverts (>95%). Yet in that vast majority UCD is absent. Meaningful information is NOT what one person thinks he sees. It can be tested to see if it is really there. Supporting Intelligent Design Notice it has something you can't provide- a testable hypothesis.Joseph
September 22, 2009
September
09
Sep
22
22
2009
05:43 AM
5
05
43
AM
PDT
Joseph
They are precisely calculated.
Prove it!
If someone plugged in random numbers for Pi do you think geometry would still be OK?
Depends what you mean by OK.
One that living organisms are not reducible to matter, energy, chance and necessity. Two that information- meaningful information- can arise without agency involvement.
And how would you suggest that those claims could be refuted? In theory?
But usually we look for well-traveled trails, scat, bedding, fur on branches, broken branches, moss scraped off of a stone- things that nature, operating freely couldn’t do.
So if nature operating freely can't break a branch what can it do? Anything?Moseph
September 22, 2009
September
09
Sep
22
22
2009
05:36 AM
5
05
36
AM
PDT
Moseph:
The digits of Pi are essentially random.
They are precisely calculated. If someone plugged in random numbers for Pi do you think geometry would still be OK? When the claims of ID are refuted I will fight to be the first in line to admit it.
What claims are those? There seems to be no “central” set of claims, it depends on who you ask. So what are the claims of ID you think could be refuted?
One that living organisms are not reducible to matter, energy, chance and necessity. Two that information- meaningful information- can arise without agency involvement. That would be a good start. However I would settle for people like you just supporting your position. You could start with a testable hypothesis.
But fossils are the mineral remains of animal skeletons. I.E. biological evidence.
They were biological. Ya see there isn't any biological data that accounts for the transformations required. And I don't know of any trackers that use one footprint to track something. All one footprint can do is tell you something was there and it had a foot. We can also look at the depth and judge the weight. We can look at the print to see how fresh it is. But usually we look for well-traveled trails, scat, bedding, fur on branches, broken branches, moss scraped off of a stone- things that nature, operating freely couldn't do.Joseph
September 22, 2009
September
09
Sep
22
22
2009
05:30 AM
5
05
30
AM
PDT
Joseph
Ya see there ain’t no meaningful information in random data.
It depends what you mean. The digits of Pi are essentially random.
When the claims of ID are refuted I will fight to be the first in line to admit it.
What claims are those? There seems to be no "central" set of claims, it depends on who you ask. So what are the claims of ID you think could be refuted?
When people are stuck with using fossils for a biological theory, there may be an issue with the biological data.
But fossils are the mineral remains of animal skeletons. I.E. biological evidence. While I generally think you are a very wise and deep thinker is this not like saying a forest tracker could not use a footprint to track his prey due to the "theory of animals" not needing to use a "non-organic mud based evidence of foot shape and direction of travel" theory?Moseph
September 22, 2009
September
09
Sep
22
22
2009
05:15 AM
5
05
15
AM
PDT
Joseph, ”Peer-review is flawed. And the YECs have their peer-reviewed journals.” I’m sorry but that’s a lame excuse. There is no system that is perfect, and to compare compare repected Peer review journals to what YEC call one is ridiculous. Even before the YEC publication there were always journals that are no very respectable, but that does not mean there aren’t any that should be taken seriously. ”All they have are negative arguments-strawmen actually- against ID. .” Please give me an example of these strawmen arguments. The arguments supporting ID have been few and well refuted, but I keep hearing the same ones like a skipping record. If I am incorrect, please explain the supporting arguments and evidence ID currently has. ”How it formed for one. And what does the genetic data say about the transformations. .” It has been well demonstrated as to how information can accumulate through mutation and natural selection. If you are talking about how life was (Formed) started, that is abiogenesis not ToE. I could speak about that and evidence that supports it, but it would be off topic. ”We don’t have it yet.” Well, then you have nothing but an idea. I support exploring new ideas but to be taken seriously the ID camp needs to go back and do the work to find support, publish papers on their research and slowly win over the science community just like every other scientist has done. ”When people are stuck with using fossils for a biological theory, there may be an issue with the biological data. .” Please reexamine the evidence for ToE. Fossils are very telling concerning a biological theory, but they are far from the only source of evidence for ToE. Many different sciences came to the same conclusion concerning ToE or supporting Toe independently. The most recent Genetic evidence is very telling and strongly supports ToE. If you think Fossils are not appropriate, then the attempt to draw parallels between biology and programming to support ID is even sillier. ”I think that is correct however I don’t think I said it..” My apologies, you didn’t say that, Absolutist did. So you agree that what he said is correct? Though I have shown a few of many examples I know of where people find what they believe is meaningful information in sources produced by random natural process, you still think meaningful information must have an outside source other than the person recognizing it? ”You have the wrong idea of “meaningful information”. ” The examples I gave fit well with the discussion on this thread. Please elaborate as to what you would call meaningful information. ”Don’t you think that knowing what determines form is key to biology? ” Yes, and in many other sciences there are questions I find very important to answer, yet still haven’t been. Some things are very difficult to answer but that does not make the knowledge we have gained incorrect nor another valid. We are just beginning to really understand genetic, and I’ve seen nothing so far that supports ID. The only claim I see ID making is the “we can’t explain that so ID must be correct”: and that’s not science. ”People have been doing just that for millenia. It has become obvious that the only evidence some people will accept is a meeting with the designer(s). ” No matter how long its been going on gives it no support. You appear to agree that only arguing against the currently accepted theory is not the correct method to show scientific support for the new theory you offer. So I’ll ask again, could you please show the questions that ID does answer and what evidence you have to support these claims concerning ID. ~GIMIGIMI
September 22, 2009
September
09
Sep
22
22
2009
04:59 AM
4
04
59
AM
PDT
GIMI, Peer-review is flawed. And the YECs have their peer-reviewed journals. But anyway, with respect to anti-IDists you said:
Such a negative term for those who support a ToE instead of ID.
All they have are negative arguments-strawmen actually- against ID.
What is the proper context you are eluding to,
How it formed for one. And what does the genetic data say about the transformations.
and what evidence do you have to support that it is the proper context to view the current data?
We don't have it yet. When people are stuck with using fossils for a biological theory, there may be an issue with the biological data.
You yourself had claimed in an earlier post: “Meaningful information necessitates an information giver".
I think that is correct however I don't think I said it. But anyway:
I have shown that often the ‘information giver’ is the mind of the person finding the information in random data.
You have the wrong idea of "meaningful information". Ya see there ain't no meaningful information in random data.
Lack of an answer for certain aspects of biology is not evidence that a particular theory is incorrect, nor another is correct.
Certain aspects? Don't you think that knowing what determines form is key to biology?
Instead of pointing out the questions that ToE doesn’t answer yet, it would be more productive to show those that ID does and what evidence you have to support it.
People have been doing just that for millenia. It has become obvious that the only evidence some people will accept is a meeting with the designer(s). IOW they ain't interested in science. They are part of the "Prove it" crowd I was mocking in another thread.Joseph
September 21, 2009
September
09
Sep
21
21
2009
11:45 AM
11
11
45
AM
PDT
Joseph,
"I was pointing out that your point swings both ways."
I do not deny that people can draw flawed conclusions from the available data, no matter which claim they support. This is the purpose of peer review, which ID proponents appears to fail to recognize. Though peer review is not the end of the life of a failed claim, it only means you may need to rework your argument, and find more data to support it. I have not seen that in the ID camp. I've seen more money and time spent on PR than research and paper publication.
"Anti-IDists..."
Such a negative term for those who support a ToE instead of ID. Nope.
"I am sure/ hopeful once we view it in its proper context it will provide a wealth of meaningful information."
What is the proper context you are eluding to, and what evidence do you have to support that it is the proper context to view the current data?
"When the claims of ID are refuted I will fight to be the first in line to admit it."
You yourself had claimed in an earlier post:
"Meaningful information necessitates an information giver."
I have shown that often the 'information giver' is the mind of the person finding the information in random data. Are you willing to admit that you were incorrect, and you claim needs more support.
"Yet here we are 150 years after the publication of “On the Origins of Species” and we still don’t have any idea what determines form."
Lack of an answer for certain aspects of biology is not evidence that a particular theory is incorrect, nor another is correct. Arguments like that usually come from a god of the gaps camp. Instead of pointing out the questions that ToE doesn't answer yet, it would be more productive to show those that ID does and what evidence you have to support it. ~GIMIGIMI
September 21, 2009
September
09
Sep
21
21
2009
10:34 AM
10
10
34
AM
PDT
GIMI, I was pointing out that your point swings both ways. Anti-IDists also "find" meaningful information where there isn't any. They also "find" patterns where there isn't any.
Are you claiming that no meaningful information can be draw from the fossil record?
Nope. I am sure/ hopeful once we view it in its proper context it will provide a wealth of meaningful information. That said- When the claims of ID are refuted I will fight to be the first in line to admit it. As I see it is the anti-IDists who lack evidentiary support and that is why they are forced to misrepresent ID. All I see is strawman after strawman when in fact if they would just support their claims ID would fall. Yet here we are 150 years after the publication of "On the Origins of Species" and we still don't have any idea what determines form. We know DNA influences it, but when we take a gene from a mouse and insert it into a fly, that fly does not develop mouse parts.Joseph
September 21, 2009
September
09
Sep
21
21
2009
07:57 AM
7
07
57
AM
PDT
Joseph, You're taking my point out of context. I was speaking of 'meaningful information' in the sense that supports the claim of intelligent origin, to point out the fact that people often find it where it is not. Are you claiming that no meaningful information can be draw from the fossil record?
"sure at first glance people may tend to see things that really are not there. THAT is why we investigate.
Unfortunately there are those who still cling onto their misinterpretation though there is little to no evidence to support it, or the evidence is shown supports a different conclusion. Instead of searching for new evidence for their claim, they often continue to insist that their original claim is correct, though it has been long refuted. Though I've been following ID for many years, I see the support offerd for it functioning in the same manner as what the local New Englanders show concerning their pseudo-archeology. The difference I do see is that ID has done a far better job with PR to promote their claim. ~GIMIGIMI
September 21, 2009
September
09
Sep
21
21
2009
07:44 AM
7
07
44
AM
PDT
Gimi- People finding meaningful imformation where it doesn't exist- the fossil record. People finding a pattern where none exists- again the fossil record. But anyway sure at first glance people may tend to see things that really are not there. THAT is why we investigate. We do so because we want/ need to find out the reality behind what it is we are observing.Joseph
September 21, 2009
September
09
Sep
21
21
2009
05:20 AM
5
05
20
AM
PDT
absolutist,
” For example the theory of evolution which cannot explain consciousness will continue to be exposed as inadequate.
Making a claim like this is not very scientific. Just because there is no current explanation offered by ToE that is well accepted does not mean it cannot or will not, nor that it is inadequate.
” I suspect (I have not seen them) that the rocks don’t quite look like Mt. Rushmore but also aren’t just small scratches you would ordinarily see on a rock. Usually something extra-ordinary inclines people to advance theories.”
The marks vary in size, placement and clarity, just as one might expect from a random event that caused them.
"In this case you say that they do in fact point to intelligence in an indirect sense in that they were “random scraps made by plows and other farming tools over the centuries.”
You seem to miss the point of my comment. It was to show that people can and do find Meaningful information where it does no exist, when their assumptions and biases are so strong and they look for supporting evidence instead looking at the evidence and see what it supports. Though recognizing the farm tools being evidence of an intelligence misses my point, I'm glad you mentioned it. I only pointed out the markings from farm tools because they most frequently related to the comment concerning finding ‘Meaningful Information.’ There also are many examples these same people use that are dues to glacial scraps and natural weathering on the rocks. Some are said to be Ogham text and others are said to be messages/maps left by local Indians. There is also on an Island in off of Maine that is though to be related to a Pirate treasure, but upon close inspection can be seen to be from natural cause. I’ve only mentioned a few that are known across New England, but this is not limited to the North Eastern portion of America. Across the world and even our Solar System you can find many examples of natural and random man made markings and oddities that are thought to contain meaningful information, where there is none.
” One way or the other these markings must have been strange enough to warrant going through an explanatory filter."
Humans are great pattern finders. This is one of our greatest assets, which at times can be one of our greatest banes. Often a person can be so blinded by their assumptions that they suffer from pareidolia. Its quite amazing how even in a serious academic investigation, how much some people can see where there is nothing there at all. ~GimiGIMI
September 21, 2009
September
09
Sep
21
21
2009
04:52 AM
4
04
52
AM
PDT
GIMI, Thanks for reminding us of this absolute that is, Truth does not care what we think of it, it remains what it is.absolutist
September 18, 2009
September
09
Sep
18
18
2009
03:10 PM
3
03
10
PM
PDT
GIMI, You are correct that meaningful to a few doesn't make it so. Your story proves the point. False theories which do not fit well with what we know to be true are hopefully deflated over time. For example the theory of evolution which cannot explain consciousness will continue to be exposed as inadequate. I suspect (I have not seen them) that the rocks don't quite look like Mt. Rushmore but also aren't just small scratches you would ordinarily see on a rock. Usually something extra-ordinary inclines people to advance theories. While strange markings on one or multiple rocks may not convey the content of a thought in a sentence, they do seem to provide some sort of meaningful information. In this case you say that they do in fact point to intelligence in an indirect sense in that they were "random scraps made by plows and other farming tools over the centuries." Farming tools imply intelligent tool makers. One way or the other these markings must have been strange enough to warrant going through an explanatory filter.absolutist
September 18, 2009
September
09
Sep
18
18
2009
02:55 PM
2
02
55
PM
PDT
Pauln, Thanks for the response. I’m not sure what your point is concerning the quantity of meaningful information we observe daily as compared to the incorrect interpretation of random lines as actual intelligently inscribed meaningful information. I was just trying to show that people can easily lead themselves to misinterpret completely random lines as meaningful information (Ogham Text). In some of the examples I’ve seen, the people have been able to find not only various Ogham letters, but also meaningful text. What they claim is very obvious to the naked eye, appears to be no better than finding animals in the clouds. Only once someone points out what to look for, it become easier to find. Even in the best examples, I still see it as a stretch of the imagination to buy it. I believe these misconceptions are due to the fact that many of these people who interpret the scrapes incorrectly, seem to have already concluded that Celtic Monks did attempt colonize NE first. The misinterpretation of some colonial settlement oddies and other natural anomalies as Celtic origin help feed this belief. Though the evidence clearly points to the farming tools, they still believe their conclusion is the correct one, no matter how weak the evidence they have is. ~GIMIGIMI
September 18, 2009
September
09
Sep
18
18
2009
09:57 AM
9
09
57
AM
PDT
P.S. I realize that "trillions" is most likely a vast underestimate.PaulN
September 18, 2009
September
09
Sep
18
18
2009
07:57 AM
7
07
57
AM
PDT
Unfortunately GIMI, All you've done is displayed how on rare occasion someone's interpretation of meaningful information can be mimicked to a mere shadow of what we see meaningful information producing on the basis of trillions of times per day. Also may I ask what qualified the boulder scrapes to be meaningful? Were they able to find any coherent messages within the alleged Celtic markings? Or were they simply noted due to their visual similarities?PaulN
September 18, 2009
September
09
Sep
18
18
2009
07:41 AM
7
07
41
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply