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ID Found in DNA

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Researchers at Brigham Young University shaped DNA strands into the letters BYU, reported Live Science.  Let’s have a little fun with this clever achievement (an indisputable case of intelligent design) with some thought experiments that make use of ID reasoning.

  • Suppose instead of forming the DNA into letter shapes, they used a code with the existing bases arranged in triplets: AAA = A, AAC = B, AAG = C, AAT =  D, and so forth.  Cracking the code would reveal the letters BYU.
  • Suppose they spelled out “Brigham Young University” in full using this code and signed their names with it.  Now they’re not only approaching the Universal Probability Bound, they are tightening the independently verifiable specification.
  • Suppose instead they made a gene that used the existing DNA transcription and translation systems to produce a string of amino acids that, after exiting the ribosome, folded spontaneously into the shapes of the letters BYU.
  • Now they get serious and try to do something useful.  They engineer a gene that has a function.  It codes for an enzyme that produces a cancer-fighting substance.

In all these cases, ID was the indisputably the cause.  Would an observer need to know the identity of the designers to detect the design?  How much more would ID be the correct inference when a designer can engineer a whole system of genes that can grow a cell into an organism that can interact with its fellow organisms to engineer the letters BYU out of the building blocks of which they themselves are composed?

Some interesting philosophical questions can ensue from this discussion.  Did the researchers intervene in nature?  Did they use miracles?  Would an observer conclude a miracle had occurred?  If one grants that ID caused the BYU case, would it be logical to assume the designers (the BYU researchers) were themselves products of chance and necessity?  Is human ID an emergent property of matter in motion?  How would matter in motion know that?

Comments
"...but wherever we find meaningful information it is inescapable to conclude that intelligence is behind it."
That is not necessarily true. In New England(NE) there are examples of marking on boulders that some believe are Ogham text. Those who believe in an earlier Celtic settling in NE have been able to find meaningful information in these markings. In most if not all case I am aware of, the markings have been found to be random scraps made by plows and other farming tools over the centuries. So, though it appears to be text with meaningful information to some people, the only actual intelligence behind the markings is in the minds of those interperting these markings as meaninful. ~GIMIGIMI
September 18, 2009
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Mr Nakashima, Thank you for your post (#19). I've been trying to find out how many butterflies there are in the world. I haven't found the answer yet, but I understand that the total number of butterfly species worldwide is 15,000 to 20,000. From looking at this site , I understand that Monarch butterflies may number 50 million per hectare, and that Monarch butterflies may cover up to 20 million hectares of Mexico in a good year. That's 1,000 million million, or 10 to the power of 15. Worldwide, let's say there are 10 to the power of 17 (a very generous estimate). The Monarch is actually a very common butterfly species, but let's say there are similar numbers of all other species. Since there are about 20,000 butterfly species, so that gives us 2 x 10^21. Let's say that among all these butterflies, only ONE in the entire world has the letter B on its wings, only ONE has the letter Y and only ONE has the letter U. The probability that three randomly selected butterlies will have the letters B, Y and U is therefore very low - in the order of 10^63. That's still well above Dembski's universal probability bound. So the short answer to your question is: No. By itself, that's not proof of design.vjtorley
September 17, 2009
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The “????” were Japanese characters (UD didn't like), we'll substitute other symbols, say "La nieve es blanca."absolutist
September 17, 2009
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"Meaningful texts owe their meaning not to the physics and chemistry of ink on paper but to the infusion of semantic information. Likewise, life owes its origin not to the physics and chemistry of life's basic building blocks but to the infusion of biologically significant functional information." William Dembski and Jonathan Wells (Design of Life, 2008, p251)
absolutist
September 17, 2009
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Mr Nakashima, While I grant you that the odds of finding what appears to be the single letters B, Y and U on separate butterflies are not insurmountable (looks like even butterflies can have bad hair days), finding all three butterflies flying together in the right order while spelling something meaningful becomes highly improbable apart from the activity of a designing intelligence. The letters that form the -BYU- pattern are designed because the letters -BYU- carry information and provide a short description of the pattern in question, namely: The three letter abbreviation for Brigham Young University, America's largest religious university located in Provo, Utah. Obviously here the news story also informs us that this is in fact the case, but wherever we find meaningful information it is inescapable to conclude that intelligence is behind it. Do you see that information is not the same as the characters that convey it? I can write to you "????" or "Snow is white" and while the meaning remains unchanged, neither set of letters is the same. Meaningful information necessitates an information giver. DNA and whatever other substance is responsible for the construction of a three-dimensional human being presents us with an insurmountable amount of specified complexity and information, naturalism simply cannot explain.absolutist
September 17, 2009
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I'm sorry, I need to make a correction to my previous post. You can replace "Darwinian assumptions" with naturalistic assumptions, seeing as almost every IDer acknowledges natural workings to an observational extent, albeit to a much lesser theoretical extent than Darwinists.PaulN
September 17, 2009
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Nakashima-san,
I’m holding them out as an example to see if different participants will agree or not with either of these positions, or with the evovlved by happenstance position.
Ah, I actually take kindly to your line of inquiry here. Seeing the discrepency between IDists who reason within Darwinian assumptions vs. those who reason within Design assumptions is an observation that everyone here could appreciate.PaulN
September 17, 2009
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Are the letters on the butterfly’s wings obviously designed? What we may say for sure is that they do not give their bearers any "survival advantage". Or the other way around - they were not selected by "natural selection". One has just to go on summer meadow and observe all those butterflies there. Only a darwinist can claim that patterns on their wings are outcome of "natural" or "sexual" selection. Nothing support my claim better that so called polymorphic mimicry in butterflies. Non-mimetic morphs thrive often better than mimetic ones - putting the whole concept of "natural selection" on ice. It was Heikertinger, Punnet and Goldschmidt - and many others - who challenged neodarwinian explanation of butterflies' wings pattern and coloration. Goldschmidt even considered it as the cornstone of darwinian gradualism and wrote “Mimetic Polymorphism, a Controversial Chapter of Darwinism”. More on my blog.VMartin
September 17, 2009
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Mr PaulN, I agree that someone holding to an extreme design position would of course say that the butterfly's wings were designed. Other less extreme design positions might say they were happenstance, a la The Old Man of the Mountain in New Hampshire (now deceased, or whatever). I'm holding them out as an example to see if different participants will agree or not with either of these positions, or with the evovlved by happenstance position.Nakashima
September 17, 2009
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Nakashima-san,
Are the letters on the butterfly’s wings obviously designed?
With all due respect, I do believe this is what we're essentially arguing as far as whittling the evidence down to its logical conclusion. If DNA is a product of design, then yes, the patterns on the butterflies wings would also be a product of that design with a particular purpose or function in mind. I imagine someone writing an algorithm that produces colorful patterns within certain size-shape constraints that provide for aesthetic purposes, whether they be directly related to survival or not. Visualizations found in popular media players come to mind.PaulN
September 17, 2009
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Mr Absolutist, If a lepidopterist pinned three butterflies in a row so that their wings read "BYU", could we infer design because of Mr Graham's reasoning, to wit The letters BYU are obviously designed because they serve absolutely no survival purpose for any organism, and we are very familiar with the process that produces such information, ie: our own language. Are the letters on the butterfly's wings obviously designed?Nakashima
September 17, 2009
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Here is another example: http://www.physorg.com/news98542190.htmlMario A. Lopez
September 17, 2009
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Mr. Nakashima, Observing DNA or the BYU letters is like seeing all 26 butterflies you mention in the proper order all at once, not isolated butterflies on a cleverly composed poster. That's much different than watching clouds in the sky that look like Mickey Mouse.absolutist
September 17, 2009
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An interesting thing for ID theorist happened in Bulgaria: Read more: The probability of this happening is about 4.2 million to one. Although this is possible, please notice that the police have been involve. Looks like ID at work to me.Kyrilluk
September 17, 2009
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KF-san, Why do you always trot out this set piece? Every onlooker knows by now that it is based on random search assumptions, while nobody is arguing that random search is how RNA chains of >150 bases formed. Talk about a strawman! This is such a strawman I'm looking for Toto and Dorothy in ruby slippers to show up next.Nakashima
September 17, 2009
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Mr Graham, The letters BYU are obviously designed because they serve absolutely no survival purpose for any organism, and we are very familiar with the process that produces such information, ie: our own language. May I suggest a visit to butterflyalphabet.com?Nakashima
September 17, 2009
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ellazimm - I think you've misunderstood the argument about the Cambrian explosion. It isn't _necessarily_ that this is a point where someone stepped in and did all that (though some certainly think that). The point is that the massive radiation indicates that there was a different process in place than natural selection. Examples of possibilities: * Front-loading - the LUCA had all of the genetics of these organisms pre-coded into its genes. Then, during the Cambrian explosion, the organisms at that time radiated out and specialized based on the information they already had. * Pre-existence - in this, the organisms existed beforehand, but the conditions provided a unique opportunity for burial * Direct intervention - multiple acts of creation occurred during this time period. All of these, of course, themselves have many different sub-viewpoints, but they are the main ones. The point is that when organisms appear fully-formed, that indicates that the process to get there was an informational process, whether or not that information was put there at that time or beforehand. If you compare the Cambrian layers to today, you find that in the upper cenozoic, you hardly have even new genuses, but in the Cambrian layers you have entirely new phyla. Something happened there that is not happening today. As for your question, "did they use miracles?" Note that in the examples given in the post, the mechanism for creating the DNA in question is not detectable, despite the fact that the design is detectable. For example, in programming, I cannot tell the kind of keyboard someone used to type in their code, or even if it was a keyboard at all. That doesn't mean I go around wondering whether or not all of this code was designed or came about through natural selection.johnnyb
September 17, 2009
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Graham, You've got to be kidding - we've had this conversation. What part sof DNA has been explained by "the usual evolutionary process"? What part?Upright BiPed
September 17, 2009
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Neither side can get to a probability of 1.0the wonderer
September 17, 2009
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It still takes faith to believe God did it, when it comes to matters of origins. It takes as much, probably more faith to believe it just happened. I wish both sides would acknowledge this fact. Because Christian writings implore us it takes faith to be know God, I land on the side of Faith in an Intelligent Designer.the wonderer
September 17, 2009
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Graham: The rest of the DNA has all been explained by the usual evolutionary process. And that explanation is...? These types of things are reported so often in the media that people begin to believe them. One columnist wrote that scientists can explain in detail how the eye evolved. Never mind that he was wrong - where did he "learn" something so obviously false?ScottAndrews
September 17, 2009
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EZ: The problem isn't probability or lack of knowledge of relevant mechanisms. We pretty well know what dynamics would obtain in Darwin's warm little pond, or the comet-head or the undersea hot vent. None of these on the dynamics of physics or chemistry and chance circumstances would be able to credibly create a von Neunman replicator on the gamut of the observed universe. Remember, just 1,000 bits of stored information is about 150 bytes, far too little to code in blueprints for the machinery to self-replicate, much less carry out metabolic processes as well. And, 1,000 bits specified a config space such that the whole observed universe running from its generally credited singularity starting point, for 50 million times as long as we have on the standard 13.7 BY timeline would not scan through 1 in 10^150th part of the possible configs for 1,000 bits. [And that ignores the very very small fraction of atoms that would be in suitable environments.] In short, the search would be the next best thing to zero scope, so it is not credible, long before any particular models of probability calculation are brought to bear. Search resource exhaustion on the gamut of the observed cosmos, in sum. But we do have an empirically well- known causal factor that creates such functionally specific, code based algorithmic information on the relevant gamuts of complexity -- 600 - 1,000 k bits up -- all the time. Intelligence. And as far as the creation of cellular life as observed is concerned, the real issue is chance + necessity vs intelligence, not "natural" vs "supernatural." On inference to best explanation, intelligence works pretty well, absent the injection of dismissive prejudice via the now disdained tag: "miracle." We can then sit down and reasonably discuss what sort of intelligence was credibly implicated in the origin of life as we observe it on earth, and onward on what sort of intelligence was implicated in the creation of a cosmos that seems to be exquisitely and on dozens of key factors, fine-tuned to host such life. A priori imposition of materialism -- whether overtly or covertly as "methodological naturalism" -- as a show-stopper to block that line of consideration on the known implication of signs of intelligence, is becoming ever more threadbare. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 17, 2009
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I don't know how life got started on earth. I have read some of the current theories and it seems some of them are gaining plausibility. In general, without some clear, unambiguous indication of an exterior intervention, I think we don't have much choice except to focus on a non-interventionist approach. I don't know what a miracle is. And improbability of one model is not an argument for another I'm afraid. We've only started, relatively speaking, to explore the possibilities and it's far too early to write off as failed the mainstream notions. Well, I think so anyway. :-)ellazimm
September 17, 2009
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ellazimm, Yes, eventually ID might get into those areas, but this does not detract from the current valid design inference from the evidence we now have on hand. Tell me this - do you believe evolution required a miracle to get started - from the point of the origin of life? If not, how do you explain it getting started? Another question - let's assume that a designer such as a god or another vastly intelligent being did start life on earth - was it necessarily a miracle? Why?CannuckianYankee
September 17, 2009
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Thats an intersting article. It is a really neat demonstration of the difference between what we would immediately identify as designed and what we would identify as a result of a natural process. The letters BYU are obviously designed because they serve absolutely no survival purpose for any organism, and we are very familiar with the process that produces such information, ie: our own language. The rest of the DNA has all been explained by the usual evolutionary process.Graham
September 17, 2009
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"Did they use miracles?" I'd love to ask that question of the current ID paradigm. If the ID inference is true then how (and when) did the designer implement the design? Many people here seem to think the Cambrian explosion is more parsimoniously explained by the intervention of an intelligent designer. Then when specifically? How specifically? Those are scientific questions that the model eventually must be able to answer to ensure that the entire process, step-by-step, is understood. Yeah?ellazimm
September 17, 2009
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I'm telling you, where is Eleanor Arroway when you need her? She's good at cracking codes.absolutist
September 16, 2009
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