Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Stirring the Pot, 3: What about the so-called Laws of Thought/First Principles of Right Reason?

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Cf follow up on laws of thought including cause, here

In our day, it is common to see the so-called Laws of Thought or First Principles of Right Reason challenged or dismissed. As a rule, design thinkers strongly tend to reject this common trend, including when it is claimed to be anchored in quantum theory.

Going beyond, here at UD it is common to see design thinkers saying that rejection of the laws of thought is tantamount to rejection of rationality, and is a key source of endless going in evasive rhetorical circles and refusal to come to grips with the most patent facts; often bogging down attempted discussions of ID issues.

The debate has hotted up over the past several days, and so it is back on the front burner.

But, why are design thinkers today inclined to swim so strongly against a cultural tide that may often seem to be overwhelming?

Perhaps, Wikipedia, speaking against known ideological inclination on the Law of Thought, may help us begin to see why:

That everything be ‘the same with itself and different from another’ (law of identity) is the self-evident first principle upon which all symbolic communication systems (languages) are founded, for it governs the use of those symbols (names, words, pictograms, etc.) which denote the various individual concepts within a language, so as to eliminate ambiguity in the conveyance of those concepts between the users of the language. Such a principle (law) is necessary because symbolic designators have no inherent meaning of their own, but derive their meaning from the language users themselves, who associate each symbol with an individual concept in a manner that has been conventionally prescribed within their linguistic group . . . .

we cannot think without making use of some form of language (symbolic communication), for thinking entails the manipulation and amalgamation of simpler concepts in order to form more complex ones, and therefore, we must have a means of distinguishing these different concepts. It follows then that the first principle of language (law of identity) is also rightfully called the first principle of thought, and by extension, the first principle reason (rational thought).

In short, to think reasonably about the world, we must mentally dichotomise, and once that is done, the first principles of right reason apply.

For instance (to connect to reality not just words), consider say a bright red ball on a table:

Where Jupiter (seen here in IR some days after the Shoemaker-Levy 9 multiple comet impact) is the ultimate “red ball” — but one — in our solar system:

 

Or, analysing in terms of an abstraction of this observational/experiential situation that brings out the laws of thought and the issue of warrant against accuracy to experiential reality:

Okay, you may say:  that addresses the world of thinking. In cases where we mark distinctions, then the distinction obtains, but that does not bridge to reality.

Or, does it?

So long as there is a distinction between the red ball on the table and the rest of the world, and so long as it is inevitable that we do know something about the world, on pain of absurdity, these will also apply to external reality. The laws are objective not just subjective.

Take, one who suggests there is an ugly gulch between our inner world of appearances and thoughts, and the outer one of things in themselves, so that we can never bridge the gap.

But, to make such a claim is to make a claim to know something about  external reality, its alleged un-knowable nature.

Self-referential incoherence leading to confusion, in short.

(That will not faze some, but that only tells the rest of us, that such are beyond the reach of reason. Pray for them, that is their only hope.)

So, we are back at the objectivity of these first principles of right reason.

Let me now clip a comment just made in the KN thread:

This, from Wiki speaking against known ideological inclination, on the Laws of Thought c. Feb 2012 [cf Rationale], may help in understanding how the three key first principles of right reason are inextricably linked:

The law of non-contradiction and the law of excluded middle are not separate laws per se, but correlates of the law of identity. That is to say, they are two interdependent and complementary principles that inhere naturally (implicitly) within the law of identity, as its essential nature . . . whenever we ‘identify’ a thing as belonging to a certain class or instance of a class, we intellectually set that thing apart from all the other things in existence which are ‘not’ of that same class or instance of a class. In other words, the proposition, “A is A and A is not ~A” (law of identity) intellectually partitions a universe of discourse (the domain of all things) into exactly two subsets, A and ~A, and thus gives rise to a dichotomy. As with all dichotomies, A and ~A must then be ‘mutually exclusive’ and ‘jointly exhaustive’ with respect to that universe of discourse. In other words, ‘no one thing can simultaneously be a member of both A and ~A’ (law of non-contradiction), whilst ‘every single thing must be a member of either A or ~A’ (law of excluded middle).

See what happens so soon as we make a clear and crisp distinction?

Therefore, why I highlight how we are using glyphs, characters, words, sentences, symbols, relations, expressions etc in trying to make all of these novel “logics” or Quantum speculations, etc?

That is, we inescapably are marking distinctions and are dichotomising reality, into (T|NOT-T) . . . (H|NOT_H) . . . (A|NOT_A) . . . (T|NOT_T) etc. just to type out a sentence. The stability of identity of T, H, A, T then leads straight to the correlates, that we have marked a distinction that is “‘mutually exclusive’ and ‘jointly exhaustive’ with respect to that universe of discourse.”

The implication is, that so soon as we make sharp distinctions and identify things on the one side thereof, we are facing the underlying significance of such distinctions: A is A, A is not NOT_A, and there is not a fuzzy thing out there other than A and NOT_A. of course, there are spectra or trends or timelines that credibly have a smooth gradation along a continuum, there are superpositions and there are trichotomies etc [which can be reduced to structured sets of dichotomies). But so soon as we are even just talking of this, we are inescapably back to the business of making (A|NOT_A) distinctions.

That is where I find myself standing this morning.

What about you? END

Comments
Stephen,
On the contrary, I am trying to wake you up.
The Buddha was said to be the "awakened one". By that standard neither one of us is awake. But at least I know I'm dreaming. You don't even know that yet.Bruce David
March 26, 2013
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Stephen, re. 113:
Sorry, but I can’t apologize. I think I have nailed it. I am not trying to be cruel. On the contrary, I am trying to wake you up.
Your chosen method of waking people up---by accusing them of saying things they didn't say and doing things they didn't do---can't be very effective. How's it working?Bruce David
March 26, 2013
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Ok, Stephen. As I suspected, you choose to deny the fact that you bore false witness against me. The evidence is in this thread, in your own words, for anyone to see who cares to look. So be it. Unlike you, I do not believe in Hell, so you are safe on that score, but sooner or later you will confront your lack of integrity and deal with it. As I said, the only one you damage is yourself.Bruce David
March 26, 2013
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Bruce:
Now are you going to acknowledge what you did and apologize, or are you going to continue on in your lack of integrity?
I wrote this, "If I present Bruce with a reasoned argument on behalf of the truth, he will simply reject it on the grounds that his personal experience and mystical knowledge transcend any and all logical problems associated with his position." That's the way it often goes. Your argument against denying the scientific evidence for the humanity of the fetus, for example, is based primarily on your mystical belief that a human is not a human at all until a soul enters the body at a late stage of development. Hence, your perceived esoteric knowledge about when a fetus become human trumps the scientific evidence. I also wrote this: "Or, he will declare that any reasonable question is irrelevant and refuse to answer it." True to form, you have refused to answer the question about your misrepresentation of the Law of Non-Contradiction. Indeed, when you do answer a question, you often reframe it to the point where it can no longer be recognized, as it was with your response about the LNC and its application to the real world.
By the way, I have never argued with the statement that the laws of reason apply to the concepts we create to handle our experience here (like the vehicle careening towards us in your question).” And like the planet Jupiter, to be perfectly clear. I just don’t regard Jupiter as having the same ontological status as you do.
This is a perfect example of the way you ignore the substance of a question and retreat into mysticism, characterizing a careening vehicle as an "concept we create to handle our experience." Has anyone ever been run over and killed by a two-thousand-pound concept? Ridiculous. Sorry, but I can't apologize. I think I have nailed it. I am not trying to be cruel. On the contrary, I am trying to wake you up.StephenB
March 26, 2013
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Stephen, addendum to #111: PS, If you will answer the question with which I ended #111, I will show you the errors in the arguments you made in #110. Deal?Bruce David
March 26, 2013
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Stephen, re #110: I knew you would do this---try to divert attention from the real issue by arguing with the responses I made in that earlier thread. I could almost have predicted it. The question between us here is not whether you agree with my critiques of your "reasoned arguments" in support of your view that the zygote is a human being. It is whether you misrepresented the way I respond to your "reasoned arguments". I have shown that you did indeed misrepresent me on all three points that I listed in #97 and again in #109. Now are you going to acknowledge what you did and apologize, or are you going to continue on in your lack of integrity? Which is it going to be?Bruce David
March 26, 2013
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Bruce
I pointed out three flaws in your argument:
Let's put that to the test.
1. The process is not really continuous. It is the product of multiple discreet occurrences. In fact, in a quantum world, no process can be said to be continuous.
Factually wrong. Unscientific and Illogical speculation. The embryo's developmental process is guided by information contained in the genome. The cycle begins at fertilization and proceeds without interruption. It is a continuous process. If it were to be interrupted at any moment, the individual would die.
2.It simply doesn’t follow that if the end of a continuous process is something, the beginning must also be that, and I gave several counterexamples to demonstrate this.
Pure mystical speculation. The science of embryology says otherwise. In the formation of the multi-celled organism, the law of gradual acquisition causes the human to acquire its final form through the passage of simple forms to more complex forms. This confirms the philosophical argument that the individual maintains its own identity and individuality from the state of one cell to the end of the process.
3. The scientific version of the process ignores the existence of the soul, which you and I both agree must be present for a human being to exist.
As well it should.
(A human being—by your definition—is a human body conjoined with a soul.) Since your argument did not address the question of at what point in the process a soul joins the developing body, it was incomplete—at best a proof of when a human body comes into existence, not a human being.
I define the soul as the body's unifying principle, which means that the body cannot exist without it. How do you define the soul? Meanwhile, you are silent on your misrepresentation of the Law of Non-Contradiction.StephenB
March 26, 2013
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Stephen, re. #108: You continue to refuse to address two of the three misrepresentations I actually cited in #97. The first is,
Indeed, Bruce is on record of saying that rationality, as defined by reason’s rules, is useless as a tool for obtaining truth.
I am not on record as making any such statement, nor would I ever make such a statement. The statement I have made repeatedly in these threads is that reason is incapable by itself of discovering truth. This is very different from the statement you accuse me of making. As an analogy, a hammer by itself is insufficient to construct a house. However, it is still a useful and even necessary tool in such an endeavor. Likewise, reason is a useful and even necessary tool in the quest to discover truth. By itself, however, it is insufficient. Your misrepresentation of what I said incorrectly implies that I do not understand the proper use of reason. Now please apologize for misrepresenting my understanding of reason. The second is,
Can Jupiter [or the red ball on the table] exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way? He will not say except to claim that the question is irrelevant to his irrational world view. Well, of course it is. What does irrationality have to do with rationality?
You asked that question twice, and in neither case did I respond by stating that "the question is irrelevant to [my] world view." The first time, I asked you a simple question in return. In the second case, I responded by pointing out a misconception in your characterization of my views that occurred earlier in your comment. At this point you changed your question to, "Does the Law of Non-Contradiction apply to the real world?" (#19) and our discussion from that point on revolved around that question and not the former. Furthermore, I did effectively answer the first question in #84, a comment addressed to Kairosfocus, when I wrote, "By the way, I have never argued with the statement that the laws of reason apply to the concepts we create to handle our experience here (like the vehicle careening towards us in your question).” So please apologize for your misrepresentation of how I responded to your question, "Can Jupiter [or the red ball on the table] exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way?" The remaining misrepresentation (as modified in #105) is,
If I present Bruce with a reasoned argument on behalf of the truth, he will simply reject it on the grounds that his personal experience and mystical knowledge transcend any and all logical problems associated with his position. This is my interpretation of your behavior and I cite your denial of the fetus’ humanity as an example. If you can show me that it is an unfair interpretation, I will acknowledge the point.
I showed that I did nothing of the sort, and you have responded with the following:
Here is a summary of my argument: A human being is, by definition, a “being” that belongs to the human species—the word human is a species descriptor. A zygote is, again, by definition, and from a biological perspective, a human being in its early stage of development.” Please produce “your carefully reasoned argument” that is alleged to have demonstrated the “several logical errors in that formulation.” Again, if you can rise to that challenge, I will retract my comment. Otherwise, I stand by it.
That was not your argument in the thread in which we had this exchange. Rather, it was that 1) science has determined that human development in utero is a continuous process that begins with a fertilized egg and ends at birth, 2) the end product of this continuous process is a human being, 3) therefore the beginning of the process (the zygote) must also be a human being. I pointed out three flaws in your argument: 1. The process is not really continuous. It is the product of multiple discreet occurrences. In fact, in a quantum world, no process can be said to be continuous. 2. It simply doesn't follow that if the end of a continuous process is something, the beginning must also be that, and I gave several counterexamples to demonstrate this. 3. The scientific version of the process ignores the existence of the soul, which you and I both agree must be present for a human being to exist. (A human being---by your definition---is a human body conjoined with a soul.) Since your argument did not address the question of at what point in the process a soul joins the developing body, it was incomplete---at best a proof of when a human body comes into existence, not a human being. So again, you have misrepresented what my response is when you present a "carefully reasoned argument". Please apologize for this misrepresentation.Bruce David
March 25, 2013
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Bruce
Of the three instances of misrepresentation that I documented in #97, you have addressed only one in this comment
You were referring to my comments @91, and I addressed all three, two of which were misrepresentations on your part. You have not challenged the fact that they were misrepresentations nor have you apologized for making them. I have pointed out several times that you tried to twist the Law of Non-Contradiction into a language-only formulation, and you cannot credibly deny the point. On point three, you write this about my argument for the humanity of the fetus:
I gave a carefully reasoned argument demonstrating the several logical errors in your argument.
Here is a summary of my argument: A human being is, by definition, a "being" that belongs to the human species—the word human is a species descriptor. A zygote is, again, by definition, and from a biological perspective, a human being in its early stage of development." Please produce "your carefully reasoned argument" that is alleged to have demonstrated the "several logical errors in that formulation." Again, if you can rise to that challenge, I will retract my comment. Otherwise, I stand by it.StephenB
March 25, 2013
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Stephen, re. #105 Of the three instances of misrepresentation that I documented in #97, you have addressed only one in this comment, which is the following:
If I present Bruce with a reasoned argument on behalf of the truth, he will simply reject it on the grounds that his personal experience and mystical knowledge transcend any and all logical problems associated with his position. This is my interpretation of your behavior and I cite your denial of the fetus’ humanity as an example. If you can show me that it is an unfair interpretation, I will acknowledge the point.
Your characterization of my response to your "reasoned argument" that the zygote (not fetus) is a human being (which is different from possessing "humanity") is simply false. I did not "reject it on the grounds that [my] personal experience and mystical knowledge transcend any and all logical problems associated with [my] position." Rather, I gave a carefully reasoned argument demonstrating the several logical errors in your argument. To characterize this as you have betrays a lack of discernment that you generally do not otherwise display. Once again, your commitment to personal integrity appears to be sadly lacking. I can only gather from this response that you have no intention of apologizing to me or anyone else for bearing false witness against me. So be it, Stephen. Just know that your lack of integrity damages no one but yourself.Bruce David
March 25, 2013
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Correction: My example of the fetus is at @102, which is an example of the principle first discussed @91.StephenB
March 25, 2013
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Bruce
So here’s the situation, Stephen. In #91, writing to William Murray, you misrepresented my philosophical position, my modus operandi, and what I actually wrote.
Doesn’t this pattern you have of misrepresenting what I have said bother you? I mean, as a Christian, don’t you think a stronger commitment to the truth would be in order? I’m just asking.
Well, let's find out if that's true. I will be happy to take each point I made @91 in order. [a] The Law of Non-Contradiction applies to the logical, psychological, and ontological realm. Bruce has attempted to divorce the psychological/logical component from the ontological component. If I have made a false charge here, address it. [b]. In his attempt to eliminate LNC's ontological element, Bruce has redefined that Law in an attempt to misrepresent it, stating as fact, that the LNC is solely about language. If that is not a serious misrepresentation, then explain why it is not. [c] If I present Bruce with a reasoned argument on behalf of the truth, he will simply reject it on the grounds that his personal experience and mystical knowledge transcend any and all logical problems associated with his position. This is my interpretation of your behavior and I cite your denial of the fetus' humanity as an example. If you can show me that it is an unfair interpretation, I will acknowledge the point. Since you used the word "pattern," I expect you to cover all three points. Go ahead and address [a] and we can move on to [b] and [c]. Or, if you like, take on all three.StephenB
March 25, 2013
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William, re. #101 Well, first, allow me to apologize for misunderstanding your beliefs. It seems that in a lot of ways we are more in agreement than I imagined. As for the rest, once again, let me try to be as clear as I can while explaining my views on this very subtle topic. Consider KF's red ball again. What do our senses tell us? We see a round portion of the visual field that we label "red" but which in fact changes color with variations in the color and intensity of the light that falls on it. It appears to become smaller the farther we move away from it, and larger as we move closer. If we block all light from striking it (by say, closing the drapes and turning off the light during the nighttime), it disappears, and it reappears when we turn the light back on. When we put our hands on it, it feels solid with a curved surface that appears to change its temperature based on a number of factors. And so on. From these myriad sensory impressions, we form in our minds the concept of a round, red, solid object, which we call a ball. My contention is that the objects, the "things" we experience in the world are in fact these concepts we have created in order to make sense of our experience. And it is these concepts with which language deals as though (as most people believe) they are real and have an existence independent of our minds. So when you say that "you cannot imagine an X that is both X and not-X at the same time and in the same sense", the X in your statement stands for one of the concepts, or things, we have created out of our sense data and which for the most part we take to be real. So my point about language is really that the LNC applies to the concepts we have created and to which linguistic utterances refer. The mystics, however, speak of a Reality which they see or have seen that is beyond the ability of language to describe. From this I conclude that the concepts with which language deals and to which the LNC applies are useless in understanding the Reality to which the mystics refer. So basically, reason (as the term has been used in this thread anyway), is not applicable to an understanding of the Reality that underlies our existence (again, assuming that the mystical vision of reality is valid, which I do).Bruce David
March 25, 2013
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Stephen, re. #102
Bruce
You didn’t address (or apologize for) a single one of the charges I made in 97 that you misrepresented both my positions and the way I respond to your comments, not really.
I thought I made it clear that I don’t agree with your account of those events.
So here's the situation, Stephen. In #91, writing to William Murray, you misrepresented my philosophical position, my modus operandi, and what I actually wrote. I pointed this out to you in #97, with documentation. In #99, by refusing to address the points I made in #97, you effectively denied what I documented, and did so again above. You have born false witness against me Stephen, and when this is pointed out to you, your response is simply denial. The truth of this will be clear to anyone who simply follows our conversation in this thread. Your own words indict you. You are out of integrity, Stephen, and everyone can see it who cares to look. I can see only one way to restore your integrity, and that is to acknowledge what you have done and apologize---to me, to WJM, and to the other participants in this thread. So how about it? Are you going to apologize and thereby right your ship or go on denying what you did? We await your answer.Bruce David
March 25, 2013
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Bruce
You didn’t address (or apologize for) a single one of the charges I made in 97 that you misrepresented both my positions and the way I respond to your comments, not really.
I thought I made it clear that I don't agree with your account of those events. I present logical arguments, but you respond by retreating into mysticism. You write this, for example:
..when you offered a proof that a zygote was a human being, I pointed out (several times, actually) where the flaws in you reasoning lay.
A human being is, by definition, a being that belongs to the human species---"human" is a species descriptor. A zygote is, again, by definition, a human being in its early stage of development. It certainly is not a developing giraffe. You didn't expose any "flaws" in my argument. You simply refused to accept the evidence and the logic, intruding your personal philosophy about ensoulment, which is irrelevant to the zygote's humanity. It was I who exposed the flaws in your argument. This is another example of the way you change definitions to suit your own biases and prejudices. You do the same thing with the Law of Non-Contradiction, restricting its meaning to the realm of language and presenting that meaning as the true meaning. When I call it to your attention, you evade the point and change the discussion to differences in our personal philosophy. Or, you resort to making comments about my character. Why not simply address the point?StephenB
March 25, 2013
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I believe that you (correct me if I’m wrong) hold that we live one life here on earth and then go either to Heaven or Hell depending on how we lived that life. I, on the other hand, believe that we incarnate many times, and that each life is a spiritual growth or regression experience.
Your assumptions about my views are incorrect. I have no problem with belief in reincarnation - I'd be surprised if that option wasn't available. I'd quibble on what I think may just be a semantics issue about "advancement of souls", but that's minor. My belief about the afterlife would be entirely misrepresented by the words "heaven" and "hell". I think that when one is talking about the "whole" God, the LNC becomes a moot point. At that level, there is only "one thing", and everything is - ultimately - that one thing. However, IMO, the origin of individuated consciousness requires an X/not-X dichotomy, even if X and "not-X" are ultimately from the same thing. Part of the LNC states "in the same sense". In the sense of being viewed from the individual level, there must be X and not-X, individual and context. If there is no dichotomy in that sense, at that level, there is no individual. There is only the "oneness". To say that the LNC is "only a rule of language" is, IMO, like saying that "triangles only have three sides" is only a rule of language. You cannot imagine a 4-sided triangle; you cannot imagine an X that is both X and not-X at the same time and in the same sense. You can say "X can be both X and not-X at the same time and in the same sense", just as you can say "There is a 4-sided triangle" - but you cannot even imagine such a thing. It seems to me that it is obvious that the LNC is not a mere "rule of language", but in fact a rule of experience and a rule of individual being.William J Murray
March 25, 2013
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Stephen, re. 99: You didn't address (or apologize for) a single one of the charges I made in 97 that you misrepresented both my positions and the way I respond to your comments, not really. You really don't want to face your lack of integrity, do you? I must say, you and several other of the Christian commenters on this blog (who shall remain nameless) who claim to be subject to a God given moral law certainly don't walk your talk. You're not a very good advertisement for your stated beliefs, I must say.Bruce David
March 24, 2013
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Bruce
The correct version of what I have said on this point is that reason is powerless by itself to arrive at truth. Reason is a very powerful tool when used properly. All of mathematics, for example, is the product of the proper use of reason.
Your position is that reason is powerless to tell us anything about the real world. I did not misrepresent you.
For example, when you offered a proof that a zygote was a human being, I pointed out (several times, actually) where the flaws in you reasoning lay.
You simply claimed to find a flaw that doesn't exist. Anyone can make false claims.
I did not, as you claim, “simply reject [reasoned arguments] on the grounds that [my] personal experience and mystical knowledge transcend any and all logical problems associated with [my] position.
That is exactly what you do.
The first time I responded (Can Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time?) by asking, “What is the point of this question?
Evasion.
The second I responded by addressing an earlier part of your comment in an attempt to explain the differences between your and my philosophical contexts in which the question exists.
Another evasion. The difference in our philosophy is irrelevant. What matters is that you are trying to redefine that Laws of Identity and Non-Contradiction to suit your own whims.
I wrote, “By the way, I have never argued with the statement that the laws of reason apply to the concepts we create to handle our experience here (like the vehicle careening towards us in your question).
What a silly statement. Why would you argue against your own self-serving and malformed description of the issue?
And like the planet Jupiter, to be perfectly clear. I just don’t regard Jupiter as having the same ontological status as you do.
Again, I am concerned only with your false claim that the Laws of Identity and Non-Contradiction are limited to language. In fact, they are not. They are what they are, like it or not.StephenB
March 24, 2013
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Bruce David continues to whine. Bruce David, What if your former teacher was a quack? What if your former teacher never asked whether he himself was ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked? What if what your former teacher really meant in saying that “Reason is powerless in the expression of Love” is that truly, “Reason is NOT powerless in the expression of Love”? What if REASON and LOVE have their origin in the same being?Mung
March 24, 2013
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Stephen, re 91: Doesn't this pattern you have of misrepresenting what I have said bother you? I mean, as a Christian, don't you think a stronger commitment to the truth would be in order? I'm just asking. Some examples:
Indeed, Bruce is on record of saying that rationality, as defined by reason’s rules, is useless as a tool for obtaining truth.
The correct version of what I have said on this point is that reason is powerless by itself to arrive at truth. Reason is a very powerful tool when used properly. All of mathematics, for example, is the product of the proper use of reason.
Accordingly, if you present him with a reasoned argument on behalf of the truth, he will simply reject it on the grounds that his personal experience and mystical knowledge transcend any and all logical problems associated with his position. Or, he will declare that any reasonable question is irrelevant and refuse to answer it.
This is simply false. When I respond to such a comment, I invariably point out the fallacy or fallacies in your argument (unless I happen to agree, of course, which seldom happens). For example, when you offered a proof that a zygote was a human being, I pointed out (several times, actually) where the flaws in you reasoning lay. You didn't agree, of course, but that doesn't alter the fact that I did not, as you claim, "simply reject it on the grounds that [my] personal experience and mystical knowledge transcend any and all logical problems associated with [my] position." And when you attempted to give me a reasoned argument for the existence of Hell, I also carefully pointed out the flaw in your reasoning. I can't remember any time when you presented a "reasoned argument on behalf of the truth" and I responded as you describe. Maybe I'm forgetting some such exchange, but if there were any, there weren't many.
Can Jupiter [or the red ball on the table] exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way? He will not say except to claim that the question is irrelevant to his irrational world view. Well, of course it is. What does irrationality have to do with rationality?
Another misrepresentation of what I said. In the current thread, you asked me that question twice, in numbers 11 and 16. The first time I responded by asking, "What is the point of this question?" The second I responded by addressing an earlier part of your comment in an attempt to explain the differences between your and my philosophical contexts in which the question exists. After that, our discussion centered around the other question you asked, "Does the Law of Non-Contradiction apply to the real world?" I actually effectively answered your first question in #82, responding to a comment by KF. I wrote, "By the way, I have never argued with the statement that the laws of reason apply to the concepts we create to handle our experience here (like the vehicle careening towards us in your question)." And like the planet Jupiter, to be perfectly clear. I just don't regard Jupiter as having the same ontological status as you do.Bruce David
March 24, 2013
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WJM, re. #90 Well, first, thanks for the support. In regard to this:
I don’t know if BD and I agree on this, but personally I hold that there are ramifications to one’s behavior that extends beyond death, so I’m not comfortable with calling the physical world an “illusion”. IMO, it’s as real as anything else that exists and that can be experienced by individual, conscious entities, and one’s behavior here has consequences that are as real as any conscious, individual entity can experience.
I do agree that our behavior here has ramifications after physical death, but I suspect that our ideas of what those ramifications are vary quite a bit. I believe that you (correct me if I'm wrong) hold that we live one life here on earth and then go either to Heaven or Hell depending on how we lived that life. I, on the other hand, believe that we incarnate many times, and that each life is a spiritual growth or regression experience. To the degree that we successfully achieve the purpose of any particular life and live in harmony with our essence (the image and likeness of God), to that degree we will be a more advanced soul in whatever context we choose to operate after we complete that lifetime.Bruce David
March 24, 2013
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KF @92. Yes, absolutely. There is no midpoint between A exists vs. A doesn't exist.StephenB
March 24, 2013
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KF, re. 89
Say, as well, that this world was created last Thursday, at 5:00 am GMT, in a flash. So, the history we imagine and the ongoing lives that we think we are having are all in a dream state controlled by a massive computer. Since it is a post peer world, the supercomp uses the processing capacity of our brains collectively, and harvests the rest of the capacity for some nefarious project by an alien super race. Now, you tell me how we can choose between such a world and the one we think we live in? This sort of Cave-world collective mirage has a long history in philosophy, and it is about how conventional wisdom can be wrong and manipulated, while some little elite out there is in control, and maybe some special little circle has got away and is wild and free.
I don't believe any of that. You have erected some straw men here.
Absent strong direct reason to see that there is a widespread delusion, we take our senses as speaking truthfully
Really, KF? My senses tell me that your red ball on the table is red, solid, and makes a sound when it falls off onto the floor. Yet the ball is not red. It isn't any color at all. It emits electro-magnetic radiation at certain frequences which our minds perceive as the color red. Red does not exist in the ball at all. Likewise with its solidity. According to the understanding of modern physics, the atoms of which the ball is composed are almost entirely empty space. The solidity our senses perceive is an illusion. Likewise with sound. The ball creates no sound when it hits the floor, only vibrations of the air molecules. Again, our minds create the perception of sound. In what sense can you say our senses are speaking truthfully?
we take our ability to reason on common sense in light of self-evident first principles of right reason as fundamentally sound though we are prone to error.
Two points here. First, as a mathematician an student of philosophy, I am very aware of the power of reason as well as its limitations. I have yet to see any evidence that reason alone is capable of arriving at truth, other than the truth of propositions of the form "this follows from that", which is the essence of all mathematical theorems. Second, what good is it that the principles of reason are sound if we are prone to error? The principles of reason don't argue a case by themselves; they require one of us to apply them. If we are prone to error, then how can we trust any conclusions we draw through the use of such principles? So now let me explain to you why I don't accept a material world existing independently "out there". The first reason is Occam's Razor. I accept the existence of the Deity---the creator and sustainer of ourselves and all the worlds. Also, everything I know of "things" comes to me through my senses, and sense impressions are of the mind. So we have our minds and God's mind. These are sufficient to explain everything we experience. There is no need to posit the existence of a material world corresponding to those sense impressions. By Occam's razor, I do not make that assumption because it is an unnecessary explanatory device. Or to use Laplace's famous statement with a different application, I have no need of that hypothesis. Secondly, this metaphysical position saves my philosophy from having to confront what I consider an insoluble problem: how can the two totally different substances, mind and matter, possibly affect each other causally? Put in more concrete terms, how can the brain possibly produce thoughts, emotions, sense impressions, etc., and how is it that thoughts and intentions can possibly have any influence on the physical material composing the brain? If there is no material world in the first place, this problem simply disappears. Thirdly, this position makes it much easier to understand the existence of miracles (which happen far more frequently than most people are willing to admit. I personally know of several having been performed by otherwise rather ordinary people.), ESP in all its manifestations (of which innumerable examples have been documented), and quantum weirdness (which is really only problematic if one assumes that matter is real and exists independently of our perception of it).Bruce David
March 24, 2013
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As one who designs virtual realities, I can assure you that they are quite real.Phinehas
March 24, 2013
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SB: A sobering reminder. As you saw above, I have strong objections to any scheme of thought that imposes an ugly gulch between the perceived, reflected on and discussed world and the world of things in themselves (which does not mean that error does not exist!). Whether by Kantian or Mystical or Monist means, such will end predictably in undermining reasoning, warrant, knowledge and truth. My only quibble is that I think once dichotomy exists in reality, as in {Red Ball|not_Red Ball}, non contradiction, identity and the excluded middle also apply to the reality too: a distinct thing cannot be and not be in the same sense and circumstances, etc. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2013
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WJM:
To be fair, Bruce David is not arguing that his view of a “Matrix”-style physical existence is the case; he’s just informing us of his views largely because he has been asked and prodded to do so.
Recall that the purpose of the post is to confirm the legitimacy of reason's rules, among which several elements are in play. The Law of Non-Contradiction, which refers to the logical and psychological realm, is inseparable from the Law of Identity, which refers to the ontological realm. Bruce has pro-actively interrupted the momentum of this thread to claim that these rules pertain only to language and not to things, which is just another way of redefining the law to suit his own biases and prejudices. If the Law of Non-Contradiction could be separated from the Law of Identify, then reason's rules could no longer serve the purpose of grounding rationality. Yet Bruce believes that he is entitled to create his own Law of Identity such that it applies only to language and nothing else, even though identity is, by definition, associated with "being" as well as language. His novel and twisted Law of Identity (a law that is, in fact, exempt from that kind of tampering) can thus be reconciled with any contradiction he chooses to utter, even though the whole purpose of that law is to de-legitamize those same contradictions. Indeed, Bruce is on record of saying that rationality, as defined by reason's rules, is useless as a tool for obtaining truth. Accordingly, if you present him with a reasoned argument on behalf of the truth, he will simply reject it on the grounds that his personal experience and mystical knowledge transcend any and all logical problems associated with his position. Or, he will declare that any reasonable question is irrelevant and refuse to answer it. Can Jupiter [or the red ball on the table] exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way? He will not say except to claim that the question is irrelevant to his irrational world view. Well, of course it is. What does irrationality have to do with rationality?StephenB
March 24, 2013
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To be fair, Bruce David is not arguing that his view of a "Matrix"-style physical existence is the case; he's just informing us of his views largely because he has been asked and prodded to do so. I hold a similar view (I use the term "psychoplasm" to describe the physical world), and am happy to share it with others if they ask, but I don't argue it because in my view it is not an arguable position, as per KF's #89. I don't know if BD and I agree on this, but personally I hold that there are ramifications to one's behavior that extends beyond death, so I'm not comfortable with calling the physical world an "illusion". IMO, it's as real as anything else that exists and that can be experienced by individual, conscious entities, and one's behavior here has consequences that are as real as any conscious, individual entity can experience.William J Murray
March 24, 2013
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BD: Let us take a similar view, to help us see what is going on. We all live in a modern Plato's Cave world, which in "reality" is a set of pods with our bodies immobilised and probes feeding our brains with computed images of a world that is not real. (Think, The Matrix.) In the perfect form of such, it would be indistinguishable from the world we normally think we share. Say, as well, that this world was created last Thursday, at 5:00 am GMT, in a flash. So, the history we imagine and the ongoing lives that we think we are having are all in a dream state controlled by a massive computer. Since it is a post peer world, the supercomp uses the processing capacity of our brains collectively, and harvests the rest of the capacity for some nefarious project by an alien super race. Now, you tell me how we can choose between such a world and the one we think we live in? This sort of Cave-world collective mirage has a long history in philosophy, and it is about how conventional wisdom can be wrong and manipulated, while some little elite out there is in control, and maybe some special little circle has got away and is wild and free. The issue, then is, enlightenment and false enlightenment. I say two things, the first philosophical based on Reid's common sense approach. Any system in philosophy that requires us to assume without strong direct evidence the general delusional state of our senses and sense of consciousness and/or common sense based reasoning is fatally self referentially incoherent. How can you have confidence that you are not caught up in the level 2 delusion, where you imagine yourself liberated, and so forth? Thence, infinite regress and madness. The solution is to cut the gordian knot. Absent strong direct reason to see that there is a widespread delusion, we take our senses as speaking truthfully, and we take our ability to reason on common sense in light of self-evident first principles of right reason as fundamentally sound though we are prone to error. Any mass-delusion world ideology then has the burden of proof to show that it is reasonable and not a fantasy that enmeshes the really deluded in some cult or ideological system that fools them into thinking they have the magic key to reality. (Which happens from time to time.) The second point is theological, from Jesus and Paul:
Jesus, Matt 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! Paul, Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith,[e] as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”[f] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Eph 4:17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus [--> cf. here on in context, on warrant], 22 to put off your old self,[f] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. 25 Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another . . . [ESV]
KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2013
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KF, re. #87:
The problem just above is that rules are set by convention or authority, so your use was idiosyncratic. Our world is a reality that we don’t get to make the rules of.
The pilot in the cockpit of the flight simulator doesn't get to make the rules that govern its behavior either. They're still rules by any normal definition. What I'm proposing is that our world is a virtual reality in which, like other forms of virtual reality with which we are familiar, we don't get to make the rules. Your insistence that "our world is a reality" is in fact begging the question. Aside from that and the fact that I disagree that we are under any moral governance from the "Architect and Maker" (which you and I have already been through exhaustively in other threads), I find little to quarrel with in your comment.Bruce David
March 23, 2013
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BD: The problem just above is that rules are set by convention or authority, so your use was idiosyncratic. Our world is a reality that we don't get to make the rules of. And that there is a possible openness to a higher ordering that means that the world is not closed under mechanical necessity and chance circumstances/forces, simply means that there is room for a beyond [including for an Architect and Maker of the world who for good reason may act beyond the usual course of the world from time to time -- in a context where for miracles to stand out as signs pointing beyond, there needs to be a usual order of the world . . . and where also our being under moral government implies a world where acts have highly predictable consequences, as a general pattern . . . ], it does not change realities such as 2 + 3 = 5, or that a car out of control and onrushing has highly predictable consequences that we cannot just wish away. KFkairosfocus
March 23, 2013
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