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In a pickle about Adam and Eve

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Professor Jerry Coyne can’t seem to leave the Adam and Eve question alone. In a recent post, Professor Coyne criticizes Bryan College in Dayton, Tennessee, for requiring its teaching professors to sign an updated “statement of belief” which, for the first time, explicitly affirms the existence of an historical Adam and Eve. Since Bryan College describes itself as “a nondenominational evangelical Christian college named after William Jennings Bryan: statesman, orator, and renowned prosecuting attorney in the famous Scopes Evolution Trial,” this requirement should hardly occasion surprise. What would be surprising is if the college didn’t require its professors to believe in a literal Adam and Eve.

In a related post published late last year, Coyne explains in detail why he is convinced that science has ruled out the existence of Adam and Eve:

The facts first. Sheehan et al., building on an earlier paper by Li and Durbin (references below), calculated that the minimum population size associated with the worldwide expansion of humans out of Africa about 60,000 years ago was 2,250 individuals, while the population that remained in Africa was no smaller than about 10,000 individuals. For population geneticists, this is the “effective population size,” invariably smaller than the census size, so these are minimum estimates, and ones derived from conservative assumptions. The population sizes are estimated by back-calculating (based on reasonable estimates of mutation rates and other parameters) how small an ancestral population could be and still give rise to the observed high level of genetic variation in our species.

Note: 2,500 is larger than two.

This means, of course, that Adam and Eve couldn’t have been the literal ancestors of all humanity.

Evidently math is not Professor Coyne’s forte.

Note: 2,500 isn’t the same as 2,250.

Note: 2,250 + 10,000 = 12,250.

The math lesson is over.

Coyne goes on to say that even these figures are under-estimates: they represent “the ‘effective population size,’ invariably smaller than the census size.”

I invite readers to have a look at the following article by Luke J. Harmon and Stanton Braude, of Princeton University:

Conservation of Small Populations: Effective Population Sizes, Inbreeding,
and the 50/500 Rule

I shall quote a brief extract:

There is no such thing as “the effective size” of a population. Different effective population sizes help us to estimate the impact of different forces. The effective size you estimate will depend on the scientific question you are trying to address (Box 12.1). Estimating the appropriate effective population size is crucial in biology; in most (but not all) cases, effective population size will be smaller than the actual number of organisms in the population. Think for a moment about why
this is so. A conservative rule of thumb used by some biologists is
that N_e [the effective population size – VJT] is usually about one-fifth of the total population size (Mace and Lande, 1991). Using such a rough estimate is risky because N_e can be larger than the census size of the population, depending on the history of the population and the particular N_e under consideration.

It’s rather embarrassing when a biology professor makes mistakes in his own field, isn’t it?

UPDATE: A final suggestion for Professor Coyne. Coyne claims that the effective population sizes he cites are “based on reasonable estimates of mutation rates.” Coyne is assuming here that the mutations are natural and undirected. If Coyne wants to refute the Adam and Eve hypothesis as entertained by believers in intelligently guided evolution, then the question he really should be asking himself is: what would the effective population size need to be, if the mutations that gave rise to the human line were artificial and directed?

Comments
I’m astonished that you don’t know the difference between what we still recognize as Homo sapiens (in context, early modern humans) versus contemporary humans. Sorry, but you left out a word or two in your second sentence, so I don’t know what you’re trying to say. I know the difference, I even know the difference between modern humans and contempory humans if you want to play silly games. What I don't know if why you claim the MRMCA of contempory humans has to be H. sapiens. Please explain that. The expressions that David Brown provided for a statistically infinite population does not recognize the effect of isolated populations—if you disagree, please point out the terms that do address them. The expressions aren't about biological populations, so they have nothing to do with genetic isolation. What are you talking about? Nonsense. We don’t treat humans and chimps as a single structured population! Humans and chimps don’t and never have bred together. You should know this, so I can only conclude that you’ve decided to become disingenuous. I'm taking an extreme versoin of your position (that population structure can create multiple eves) and showing even then you claim doesn't hold. Now, please, in a simple sentence: why must the MRMCA of contempory humans be H. sapiens?wd400
March 20, 2014
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wd400 shot back:
This is a waste of time.
Don't worry, I read your post regardless. ;-)
What’s the imprtant difference? Why do yout thinkthe MRMCA of humans today had to H. sapiens?
I'm astonished that you don't know the difference between what we still recognize as Homo sapiens (in context, early modern humans) versus contemporary humans. Sorry, but you left out a word or two in your second sentence, so I don't know what you're trying to say. The expressions that David Brown provided for a statistically infinite population does not recognize the effect of isolated populations---if you disagree, please point out the terms that do address them.
Indeed if you treated humans and chimps as a single very structured population there would still be one “eve” for that combined population.
Nonsense. We don't treat humans and chimps as a single structured population! Humans and chimps don't and never have bred together. You should know this, so I can only conclude that you've decided to become disingenuous. The marble experiment is a good place to help you understand the dynamics involved. Goodbye.Querius
March 20, 2014
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This is a waste of time. Nice try, wd400, but I didn’t say modern human. I said Homo sapiens. There is an important difference! What's the imprtant difference? Why do yout thinkthe MRMCA of humans today had to H. sapiens? The link that I provided indicated statistically infinite populations, and explained why. This is not my idea, and I object to the lack of factoring in genetically isolated groups, which I think is critically important. The link doesn't "indicate" "statistically infinite populations" in any relevant way - it's about sample statistics and the fact you can sometimes safely assume the population from which a sample was drawn was is infinite when you do statistical tests. It doesn't apply to this question at all, so far as I can tell. I don't ignore population strucutre, nothing about reduced gene flow prevents lineages form coalescening (thoug it slows that process). If populations are completely isolated then lineages will still coalesce at some time prior to the cessation of geneflow. Indeed if you treated humans and chimps as a single very structured population there would still be one "eve" for that combined population.wd400
March 20, 2014
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Nice try, wd400, but I didn't say modern human. I said Homo sapiens. There is an important difference! The link that I provided indicated statistically infinite populations, and explained why. This is not my idea, and I object to the lack of factoring in genetically isolated groups, which I think is critically important. And the "equivalent of your marble simulations" as you put it are not the same as Actually Performing One with actual marbles in an egg carton in your Prius! You seem to be reluctant to even try it. Don't be a grouch, it will be fun! ;-) -QQuerius
March 20, 2014
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And you haven’t answered my challenge of how our MRMCA could possibly not be Homo sapiens. That's because you simpyl assert that being the MRMCA of humanity means Eve is necesarily a modern human. There is absolutely no reason for that to be the case. Without seeing why you think this is the case it's very hard to guess where your confusion arises from. The statistical behaviour of samples from their large populations has almost nothing to do wit this question - as long as populations are actually finite then coalesnce will happen. I have done the equivalent of your marble simulation many many times, as have thousands fo population geneticists. If you want to deny the findings of this field you will need to do better than though experiments about egg cartons and marbles.wd400
March 20, 2014
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wd400, Yes, matrilineal. And you haven't answered my challenge of how our MRMCA could possibly not be Homo sapiens. Statistically infinite populations were explained in the link that I provided: http://emp.byui.edu/BrownD/Stats-intro/fundamentals/infinite_pops.htm You should really try playing with the marbles. It will get you a feel for the dynamics. Besides direct observation should always trump theory. Right? PaV, Exactly! -QQuerius
March 19, 2014
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wd400:
I really have no desire to prove entry level pop gen.Population structure extends the time to coalescence,
But how, exactly, do you 'prove' "entry level population genetics"? It's all axiomatic. We're using models, with idealized assumptions being made, and then refinements made to the idealized assumptions. You either have "confidence" in the models and their results, or you don't. As I pointed out earlier, the value of all of this becomes questionable. That you have to make a distinction between the "most recent matrilineal common ancestor" and the "most recent common ancestor of humanity" is an indication of the theory's limited value. See you tomorrow.PaV
March 19, 2014
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In youour statement number 1:
Mitochondrial eve is the most recent common ancestor of all humanity.
This statement seems to indicate that mitochondrial Eve is human, in other words H. sapiens.
That you think this suggests you have a confused idea of either mitochondrial eve and population genetics or what a species is. I can't tell which. (By the way, I should have said the most recent matrilineal common ancestor - the most recent common ancestor of humanity almost certinaly lived more recently than 'eve'.) Here's Joe Pickrell making the same point about Y-chr adam (although, note, it seems even some population geneticists have made this mistake)
Humbug. Especially for “infinite” populations
Which populations do know that are infinite?
Segregate the marbles according to color in the egg carton to represent isolated populations with a mutational difference as Darwinists claim happened for evolution to have occurred. Allow some scattering. Introduce a new colored marble occasionally but rarely to represent mutational novelties as is supposed to have happened according to Darwinists.
I really have no desire to prove entry level pop gen.Population structure extends the time to coalescence, in the extreme case with no gene flow (i.e. speciation) the lineages will coalesce just prior to the cessation of gene flow, otherwise at some more recent time. Expanding populations are known to hold on to more diversity, and mutations allow us to relate lineages to each other,neither of these processes remove the inevetiability of the fact lineages coalesce eventually.wd400
March 19, 2014
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wd400, Your statement number 1:
Mitochondrial eve is the most recent common ancestor of all humanity.
This statement seems to indicate that mitochondrial Eve is human, in other words H. sapiens. Your statement number 2:
There is no requirement she be the same (chrono-)species as modern human.
This statement indicates that mitochondrial "Eve" could be a different species (or chronopecies) entirely, which is NOT H. sapiens. But if the MCRA of ALL humans is a chimpanzee-like animal, you would be claiming that there is no common H. sapiens ancestor to all humans, which contradicts your first statement. The only way to make your second statement true is by parallel and convergent evolution---otherwise there WOULD be a human mitochondrial Eve. You seem to be confusing the concepts of MCRA with mtDNA. They're not the same thing.
Structured populations lose genetic diversity, though they do make the time to coalescence in the ‘metapopulation’ longer, they don’t eliminate the absolutely inevetibaly phenomenom.
Humbug. Especially for "infinite" populations. Go get 100 marbles of 3-4 different colors, an egg carton, and a Prius, and try it yourself! Segregate the marbles according to color in the egg carton to represent isolated populations with a mutational difference as Darwinists claim happened for evolution to have occurred. Allow some scattering. Introduce a new colored marble occasionally but rarely to represent mutational novelties as is supposed to have happened according to Darwinists. If you're ambitious, write a simple app and show us. Have it count the number of generations. I think you're in for a surprise. Remember, the more filled a pocket in the egg carton becomes, the more likely a marble will spill over into a neighboring pocket. -QQuerius
March 19, 2014
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Querius, Your first two sentences are self-contradictory. I don’t know how you would reconcile them At this point I'm happy to mark that up as your failure rather mine. I don't know why these facts are hard for you to reconcile. Take your 100 marbles and put them in an egg carton, dividing them into groups of zero to ten (or whatever fills a pocket in the tray). Now put the egg carton in your Prius, and drive over a bumpy road. The empty pockets are unfilled regions. Now do your sampling and replacement but do this pocket by pocket (along with adding some novelties without which Darwinism won’t work). You’ll find that the pockets protect genetic diversity.. Structured populations lose genetic diversity, though they do make the time to coalescence in the 'metapopulation' longer, they don't eliminate the absolutely inevetibaly phenomenom.wd400
March 18, 2014
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PaV, Right - so the fact mtEve lived in Africa is not a great big deal. The findings that multiregeionalism can't really account for are (a) she lived very recently and (b) almost all the basal mitochondrial lineages are found in Africa. That's exactly the patter OOA predicts (with non African populations mainly being a sub-sample of African genetic diversity + whatever mutations they added along the way). The population was very highly structured then the time to coalescence would be much greater, and there is no real way to explain the much greater diversity in Africa. You mention that chimps have their own mt-DNA. Couldn’t there have been three different mt-EVEs for H. erectus (before they started testing; not afterwards)? No. Or, there are distinct mitochondrial lineages in restricted to geographical regions (7 duaghters of eve and all that), they just aren't Eves. You said earlier that the RGD is used to determine ‘divergence times.’ Well, I guess it can do that. But, and this is you saying this, these ‘divergence’ times might almost be a constant over time— Nope. Times to coalescence within one population would be constant abesent selection, fulcuting population size etc (that's, after all, how we know there was no sever bottleneck...). But times to divergence are different because gene flow ceases and the lineages can no longer coalsece. If you use a single gene the estimaes of divergence times will be slighltly biased upwards since they will coalesce on some 'eve-like' individual who lived prior to the ceasatoin of geneflow, but modern methods account for this.wd400
March 18, 2014
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wd400, Your first two sentences are self-contradictory. I don't know how you would reconcile them. Also, I'm proposing that it makes sense in a Darwinist ideology for multiple emergences of H. Sapiens as well as aspects of multiregionalism. I'm not invested in any of this---none of these speculations are facts (I assume you meant facts, not faces). Take your 100 marbles and put them in an egg carton, dividing them into groups of zero to ten (or whatever fills a pocket in the tray). Now put the egg carton in your Prius, and drive over a bumpy road. The empty pockets are unfilled regions. Now do your sampling and replacement but do this pocket by pocket (along with adding some novelties without which Darwinism won't work). You'll find that the pockets protect genetic diversity. -QQuerius
March 18, 2014
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Apparently others agree with my assessment of mt-EVE. Here's this from Rick Groleau of PBS's NOVAonline.
Not surprisingly, there is currently a heated debate over the value of "mitochondrial Eve"—especially between history-hunting geneticists and some fossil-finding paleoanthropologists. According to these anthropologists, even if we could accurately gauge the age of the ancestor, that knowledge is meaningless because all she really is is the woman whose mtDNA did not die out due to random lineage extinctions. Furthermore, her status as the most recent common ancestor doesn't mean that she and her contemporaries were any different from their ancestors. (Remember, she and all of her contemporaries had their own mitochondrial Eve.) Perhaps the most valuable finding regarding the "most recent common ancestor" is that she probably lived in Africa—a finding that supports the most popular theories about the worldwide spread of hominids.
PaV
March 18, 2014
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wd400: Here are three separate comments made in three separate posts. I want to try and understand the implications of these comments below: First:
And you are wrong. The different ‘eves’ you imagine had the themselves inherit mtDNA. Trace thier histories back and you woul arrive at the shared common ancestor all modern human mtDNA – mitochondrial eve.
Second:
But the multiregional position did not suggest multiple origins for modern humans. Rather, they thought gene-flow among the different continents (the ‘lattice model’) pulled the whole species along from H. erectus to H. sapiens whle retaining some regional variants.
Third:
Since ‘eve’ is the most recent common ancestor of human mtDNA that person would be today’s eve (even though she wasn’t eve at the time, and won’t be eve at some time in the future).
It seems that population geneticists firmly believe that as time marches on, tests run to determine mt-Eve will uncover a different Eve. Now, this must rest on the hypothesis that with time lineages simply 'die out.' I would think that the 'idealized' conditions of the model that is employed for RGD---viz, an 'infinite number of alleles' produced by each generation, out of which each 'allele' of the present generation is formed---adds to this likelihood. But I see the net effect of this as rendering the entire project bankrupt of meaning. It's as if you're saying (actually you are saying this, though I scratch my head as to why---in the sense of it being a bankrupt notion) 100,000 years ago, if we could have done this test, we would have found a DIFFERENT mt-EVE; and, if we run this test 100,000 years from now, we'll turn up another mt-EVE. If you're firmly convinced of that, then, as I say, this makes the whole technique devoid of content. But it also makes things worse IMO. For example: what if a 100,000 years from now they determine that mt-EVE came out of Asia. Then what ever happened to the Out-of-Africa theory? Is it now untrue? This completely trivializes this theory. And, as I try to remember back some 25 years or so, they were attempting to find out the various 'sources' of the human population; not necessarily 'mt-EVE.' IOW, they were testing individuals from various parts of the world knowing that the mitochondria are inherited along the maternal germ line, AND, if there had been multiple 'origins' of H.erectus, then this would mean they might find three completely different kinds of mt-DNA. When it turned out that all of the mt-DNA came from one single origin, Africa, they then began to speak of a mt-EVE. I don't think the scientists were completely sure what they would find when they began the testing. You mention that chimps have their own mt-DNA. Couldn't there have been three different mt-EVEs for H. erectus (before they started testing; not afterwards)? You said earlier that the RGD is used to determine 'divergence times.' Well, I guess it can do that. But, and this is you saying this, these 'divergence' times might almost be a constant over time----which ends up telling us very little that we can put under the heading 'certain.'PaV
March 18, 2014
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Mitochondrial eve is the most recent common ancestor of all humanity. There is no requirement she be the same (chrono-)species as modern human. Indeed, there are several genes seggregating in human populations that coalesce at a time prior to the human-chimp split. If we want to recap this. The multiregionalists did not expect there to be multiple origins of humanity, even if they did such a scenario would not give rise to multiple eves, as, indeed mitochondrial lineages in any population will always be able to be traced back to a shared common ancestor. I don't know why you are so invested in denieing these faces. I know well enough about populations and samples. I don't know why you think it is relevant. To use your hundred marble example: Start with a population of 100 labled individuals. Now, sample that population with replacement to simulate a new generation. Of course, some indiviuals will have more than one offspring and some will have none (their lineages die). Repeat this again and again and you'll keep losing lineages until only one 'ancestor' is represnted in the population. That's 'eve', and she emerged from a population that didn't shrink at all. It will take much longer for this process to happen in a lrage population (the expected time = 2N), but it can't be avoided.wd400
March 18, 2014
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wd400, Me: The Eves that I imagine are H. sapiens. The common ancestor that you’re imagining is H. erectus . . . or earlier You: Yes. So? Me: Then, she wouldn't be called a mitochondrial Eve, would she. Otherwise you could have a mitochondrial "Eve" for a planaria and a pussycat, which would be nothing more than the most recent common female ancestor. Regarding the math, it's really not that hard. Google it. Here's a sample link: http://emp.byui.edu/BrownD/Stats-intro/fundamentals/infinite_pops.htm You might want to start with Part 2 of David Brown's paper. -QQuerius
March 18, 2014
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The Eves that I imagine are H. sapiens. The common ancestor that you’re imagining is H. erectus . . . or earlier Yes. So? I really have no idea what you are talking about in the rest of this comment. I am not denying the existance of bottlnecks or genetic isolation. All I'm trying to say, and I don't think it's a hard point to grasp, is that your 'eves' themselves share a common ancestor from whom they must have inherited their mtDNA. Since 'eve' is the most recent common ancestor of human mtDNA that person would be today's eve (even though she wasn't eve at the time, and won't be eve at some time in the future). This would be true even if African European and Asian humans were different species or arose independantly.The onyl way around the inevitability of this would be multiple special creations.wd400
March 17, 2014
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wd400,
The different ‘eves’ you imagine had the themselves inherit mtDNA. Trace thier histories back and you woul arrive at the shared common ancestor all modern human mtDNA – mitochondrial eve.
The Eves that I imagine are H. sapiens. The common ancestor that you're imagining is H. erectus . . . or earlier. That's why I originally brought up chimpanzee mtDNA, which according to your conceptions are passed along through a common ancestor to humans. The math simply demonstrates that a small sample size compared to a total population that's large in comparison yields probability results that are asymptotic to an infinite population. Also, the math assumes perfect mixing without any isolated communities or density variations. Since you believe in Darwinism, I don't need to remind you that isolation is a major factor in speciation. So, to discount a genetic bottleneck using this method robs you of speciation: you can either have an "infinite" population or you can have speciation, but not both. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. Try the population experiment yourself using, let's say 100 marbles of several colors. I'd be interested in your results. -QQuerius
March 17, 2014
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That’s the heart of the issue. I’m suggesting that under similar environmental pressures and presumed mutation opportunities, it’s not impossible for more than one H. Sapiens mitochondrial Eve to emerge from H. erectus And you are wrong. The different 'eves' you imagine had the themselves inherit mtDNA. Trace thier histories back and you woul arrive at the shared common ancestor all modern human mtDNA - mitochondrial eve. In fact, it’s likely that there were many other “candidates” that didn’t survive due to pathogens, predation, infant mortality, etc. and not just one, unless you’re proposing divine intervention for a single, very lucky female. Ever single women that has every lived, including those alive today, is a candidate to be a future mtEve. The apparent lack of other mt Eves is also supportive of a severe genetic bottleneck from a catastrophic event or perhaps a disease that wiped out all but a few individuals. No,it's not. It's evidence that populations are infinitely large, and so lineages coalesce eventually.wd400
March 17, 2014
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wd400,
I don’t what the press was reporting, or what you were reading. But the multiregional position did not suggest multiple origins for modern humans. Rather, they thought gene-flow among the different continents (the ‘lattice model’) pulled the whole species along from H. erectus to H. sapiens whle retaining some regional variants.
That's the heart of the issue. I'm suggesting that under similar environmental pressures and presumed mutation opportunities, it's not impossible for more than one H. Sapiens mitochondrial Eve to emerge from H. erectus. In fact, it's likely that there were many other "candidates" that didn't survive due to pathogens, predation, infant mortality, etc. and not just one, unless you're proposing divine intervention for a single, very lucky female. ;-) The apparent lack of other mt Eves is also supportive of a severe genetic bottleneck from a catastrophic event or perhaps a disease that wiped out all but a few individuals. -QQuerius
March 17, 2014
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So as we move from Homo erectus to Homo sapiens, I’m suggesting the possibility that this step happened independently in three geographic regions, hence you now have a scenario for three different mtDNA sources with different mutation histories for Homo sapiens But all three regions had to inherit their own mtDNA from somwhere. Trace the lineages of the three "eves" back and they have to join up in the common ancestor to all human mtDNA.... the one the only mitochondrial eve.wd400
March 17, 2014
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wd400,
Chimps have their own mtEve, as does every species with strict matrilineal inheitence of mtDNA.
Bingo! So as we move from Homo erectus to Homo sapiens, I'm suggesting the possibility that this step happened independently in three geographic regions, hence you now have a scenario for three different mtDNA sources with different mutation histories for Homo sapiens. If you imagine a micro version of parallel evolution, you've got the concept. -QQuerius
March 17, 2014
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Whoops, clickable linkwd400
March 16, 2014
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Here's Wolpoff himself making this point <a href="dx.doi.org/10.1002/(SICI)1096-8644(200005)112:13.0.CO;2-K">Multiregional, not multiple origins. I don't know if the press got it wrong, but it's not true that when 'they' went looking for “mitochondrial Eve”, 'they' "were certain that they would find more than ONE such 'Eve'."wd400
March 16, 2014
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Would you now like to backtrack a little? no, it remains true that it is not possible for there to be more than one mtEve.
So, now, wd400, let me point out where you seem to be going wrong when denying my thesis. If, indeed, as you are implying, the African Homo erectus, and the Asian Homo erectus and the European Homo erectus all received their mtDNA from some ancestral Homo erectus, then the transition from Homo erectus to Homo sapiens had to have taken place—or, at the very least, could have taken place [after all, we wouldn't know for sure until the DNA evidence was in]—in THREE different locations, meaning that “man” (human beings–intelligent, free, human beings) arose in three different locations: the VERY thesis I said was “in the air” at the time.
I don't what the press was reporting, or what you were reading. But the multiregional position did not suggest multiple origins for modern humans. Rather, they thought gene-flow among the different continents (the 'lattice model') pulled the whole species along from H. erectus to H. sapiens whle retaining some regional variants.wd400
March 16, 2014
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goodusername:
No one – including the proponents of the multiregional theory – were saying that there wouldn’t be a single mito Eve at some point going back. As explained, there HAS to be one due to the facts of how mtdna is passed on and that we’re a sexually reproducing species!
wd400:
Querious: From Homo erectus in each region, Africa, Asia, and Europe, emerged a female most recent common ancestor (MRCA) to Homo sapiens, each with unique mtDNA. The emergence was independent and at a similar, though not identical point in time. These three independent Eves were genetically similar, although the European and Asian Eves suffered a recent genetic bottle neck while the African Eve did not. wd400:Where did African, Asian and European Eve’s get their mtDNA from?
So, wd400, you're suggesting that the "African, Asian and European Eves all received their mtDNA from ONE ancestral "Eve". goodusername, you say I'm wrong. wd400 says I'm wrong. Both of you tell me that what I read and heard in the early 90's, when all of this was hitting the popular press, is just my imagination. (I suspect that in the back of your mind, wd400, you're thinking that I'm just not smart enough to follow this sort of stuff. This thought gives you comfort, I suppose) So, now, wd400, let me point out where you seem to be going wrong when denying my thesis. If, indeed, as you are implying, the African Homo erectus, and the Asian Homo erectus and the European Homo erectus all received their mtDNA from some ancestral Homo erectus, then the transition from Homo erectus to Homo sapiens had to have taken place---or, at the very least, could have taken place [after all, we wouldn't know for sure until the DNA evidence was in]---in THREE different locations, meaning that "man" (human beings--intelligent, free, human beings) arose in three different locations: the VERY thesis I said was "in the air" at the time. [Let me just point out that in the early 90's I hadn't read a single population genetics book. Didn't know the field existed. Wouldn't have known the'Hardy-Weinberg Equation' if I saw it in glowing letters. So, I'm simply telling you what was being reported in the press. Everyone was just waiting for 'humanity' to have arisen in more than one spot. You know, they wanted the notion of the "Garden of Eden" to be smashed. Now, most reporters have very little understanding of the subjects they're writing about, and make mistakes in reporting all the time. So it is entirely possible that they were simply confused about what the experts were telling them. But that is how it was reported. And it sure sounded like there were a lot of different scientific views of all this.] I take it that you're not going to aver that "Adam and Eve" were Homo erecti. Would you now like to backtrack a little? This is all for right now. P.S. vjtorley: did see your post, and did look at Felsenstein's response. I guess there is no "scientific theory" of the soul. Can't argue that one. Or can we? Hmmmm.PaV
March 16, 2014
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whoe in turn inherited their DNA from their mothers, and back to.... the inevetiable single common ancestor of mtDNA: the one and only mitochondrial eve. Chimps have their own mtEve, as does every species with strict matrilineal inheitence of mtDNA.wd400
March 15, 2014
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Where did African, Asian and European Eve’s get their mtDNA from?
Their respective mothers. And where did Pan troglodytes mtDNA come from? ;-) -QQuerius
March 15, 2014
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From Homo erectus in each region, Africa, Asia, and Europe, emerged a female most recent common ancestor (MRCA) to Homo sapiens, each with unique mtDNA. The emergence was independent and at a similar, though not identical point in time. These three independent Eves were genetically similar, although the European and Asian Eves suffered a recent genetic bottle neck while the African Eve did not. Where did African, Asian and European Eve's get their mtDNA from?wd400
March 15, 2014
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LOL PaV, Don't embarrass wd400 regarding his age. Speaking of communists, many people can't recognize their indoctrination. History is a great place to start. For example, according to a friend of mine who emigrated from the Soviet Union, Russia did not sell Alaska but leased it to the U.S.for 99 years, for which they were never paid. Also, that Abraham Lincoln imported large numbers of Irish to help him win the Civil War. Choose your historian . . . When wd400 claims
It’s not possible for their [sic] to be more than one mitochondrial eve. How could that possibly work?
This is because his imagination is limited to what he reads in his text books. From Homo erectus in each region, Africa, Asia, and Europe, emerged a female most recent common ancestor (MRCA) to Homo sapiens, each with unique mtDNA. The emergence was independent and at a similar, though not identical point in time. These three independent Eves were genetically similar, although the European and Asian Eves suffered a recent genetic bottle neck while the African Eve did not. It's easy if you try. -QQuerius
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