Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Intelligent Design and the Demarcation Problem

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

One common objection which is often raised regarding the proposition of real design (as opposed to design that is only apparent) is the criticism that design is unable to be falsified by the ruthless rigour of empirical scrutiny. Science, we are told, must restrict its explanatory devices to material causes. This criterion of conformity to materialism as a requisite for scientific merit is an unfortunate consequence of a misconstrual of the principal of uniformitarianism with respect to the historical sciences. Clearly, a proposition – if it is to be considered properly scientific – must constrict its scope to categories of explanation with which we have experience. It is this criterion which allows a hypothesis to be evaluated and contrasted with our experience of that causal entity. Explanatory devices should not be abstract, lying beyond the scope of our uniform and sensory experience of cause-and-effect.

This, naturally, brings us on to the question of what constitutes a material cause. Are all causes, which we have experience with, reducible to the material world and the interaction of chemical reactants? It lies as fundamentally axiomatic to rationality that we be able to detect the presence of other minds. This is what C.S. Lewis described as “inside knowledge”. Being rational agents ourselves, we have an insider’s knowledge of what it is to be rational – what it is to be intelligent. We know that it is possible for rational beings to exist and that such agents leave behind them detectable traces of their activity. Consciousness is a very peculiar entity. Consciousness interacts with the material world, and is detectable by its effects – but is it material itself? I have long argued in favour of substance dualism – that is, the notion that the mind is itself not reducible to the material and chemical constituents of the brain, nor is it reducible to the dual forces of chance and necessity which together account for much of the other phenomena in our experience. Besides the increasing body of scientific evidence which lends support to this view, I have long pondered whether it is possible to rationally reconcile the concept of human autonomy (free will) and materialistic reductionism with respect to the mind. I have thus concluded that free will exists (arguing otherwise leads to irrationality or reductio ad absurdum) and that hence materialism – at least with respect to the nature of consciousness – must be false if rationality is to be maintained.

My reasoning can be laid out as follows:

1: If atheism is true, then so is materialism.

2: If materialism is true, then the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

3: If the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain, then human autonomy and consciousness are illusory because our free choices are determined by the dual forces of chance and necessity.

4: Human autonomy exists.

From 3 & 4,

5: Therefore, the mind is not reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

From 2 & 5,

6: Therefore, materialism is false.

From 1 & 6,

7: Therefore, atheism is false.

Now, where does this leave us? Since we have independent reason to believe that the mind is not reducible to material constituents, materialistic explanations for the effects of consciousness are not appropriate explanatory devices. How does mind interact with matter? Such a question cannot be addressed in terms of material causation because the mind is not itself a material entity, although in human agents it does interact with the material components of the brain on which it exerts its effects. The immaterial mind thus interacts with the material brain to bring about effects which are necessary for bodily function. Without the brain, the mind is powerless to bring about its effects on the body. But that is not to say that the mind is a component of the brain.

We have further independent reason to expect a non-material cause when discussing the question of the origin of the Universe. Being an explanation for the existence of the natural realm itself – complete with its contingent natural laws and mathematical expressions – natural law, with which we have experience, cannot be invoked as an explanatory factor without reasoning in a circle (presupposing the prior existence of the entity which one is attempting to account for). When faced with explanatory questions with respect to particular phenomena, then, the principle of methodological materialism breaks down because we possess independent philosophical reason to suppose the existence of a supernatural (non-material) cause.

Material causes are uniformly reducible to the mechanisms and processes of chance (randomness) and necessity (law). Since mind is reducible to neither of those processes, we must introduce a third category of explanation – that is, intelligence.

When we look around the natural world, we can distinguish between those objects which can be readily accounted for by the dual action of chance and necessity, and those that cannot. We often ascribe such latter phenomena to agency. It is the ability to detect the activity of such rational deliberation that is foundational to the ID argument.

Should ID be properly regarded as a scientific theory? Yes and no. While ID theorists have not yet outlined a rigorous scientific hypothesis as far as the mechanistic process of the development of life (at least not one which has attracted a large body of support), ID is, in its essence, a scientific proposition – subject to the criteria of empirical testability and falsifiability. To arbitrarily exclude such a conclusion from science’s explanatory toolkit is to fundamentally truncate a significant portion of reality – like trying to limit oneself to material processes of randomness and law when attempting to explain the construction of a computer operating system.

Since rational deliberation characteristically leaves patterns which are distinguishable from those types of patterns which are left by non-intelligent processes, why is design so often shunned as a non-scientific explanation – as a ‘god-of-the-gaps’ style argument? Assuredly, if Darwinism is to be regarded as a mechanism which attempts to explain the appearance of design by non-intelligent processes (albeit hitherto unsuccessfully), it follows by extension that real design must be regarded as a viable candidate explanation. To say otherwise is to erect arbitrary parameters of what constitutes a valid explanation and what doesn’t. It is this arbitrarily constraints on explanation which leads to dogmatism and ideology – which, I think, we can all agree is not the goal or purpose of the scientific enterprise.

Comments
Stephen (#155): Unfortunately, work kept me from following the last developments, and now it's hatd to catch up! You say: "I think I agree with your point that control of intention is “enough” to ground true moral responsibility. The words, “outer actions,” however, convey a different meaning for me than the words, “outer results.” Is it fair to say, for example, that when an agent acts on an intent, such an individual is morally responsible for both the intention and the action through which the intention is made manifest. If one person intends to harm another and then proceeds to commit an act of violence, would this behavior not constitute an “outer act” for which the individual would be responsible, and would it not be a different matter than the “outer results” [how things play out] of that act, which would involve the acts other moral agents for which their moral sensibilities would be on trial." Well, what I meant is that we can be morally responsible of our action only in the measure that we can really control them. There may be situations where there can be a great difference between the intention and the actual action. This is a field where I don't think we can really judge, but only try to understand with humbleness. Many action are compulsive, and probably the agent, in his present state, isnot able to control them much. Think of many states of dependency, both physical and psychological, for instance. In that case, a moral behaviour could just be the effort to fight against that state, even if at first unsuccesful. The outer action can still be apparently evil, but a sincere inner intention to go upstream can be the premise for future redemption. So, I would stay very open and flexible in this field: it is important to know that we have the inner power to change, and that such a power will increase if we apply our free will in a positive way now.gpuccio
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
05:17 PM
5
05
17
PM
PDT
AIG @ 157:
Can we agree that all of our observations confirm that only human beings encode CSI? (Let us, to simplify argument, ignore the two other types of things in our experience that produce CSI, which would be other animals and computers).
Not quite, on several aspects: 1 --> It is not embodiment as such that produced dFSCI in our observation, as already discussed. 2 --> For one instance, computer programs and systems are produced by knowledgeable, trained experts, i.e the capacity traces to intelligent behaviour specifically. 3 --> Similarly, text strings here at UD are produced not primarily because we are embodied but because we are intelligent. 4 --> And we have no good grounds for inferring that we exhaust the possible specific or general types of intelligence; indeed he origin of a fine-tuned observed cosmos makes an extra-cosmic, necessary being intelligence credible or at least possible, and one that -- per the heat death challenge cannot reasonably be material and subject to the random transfers of motion that lead to thermodynamics effects. 5 --> Next, when computers produce dFSCI they do so as extensions of humans, their desigers and programmers. 6 --> I am at present unaware of animals producing digitally coded functionally specific complex information, but would accept such cases as proof of intelligence of said animals. For instance if certain claims about certain parrots pan out, I would accept them as intelligent, as I would accept a robot that passes certain tests that show originality, as I have long since said. 7 --> What is relevant is of course that in cells, we find dFSCI systems, and we are not a credible cause. 8 --> On the known observations and the challenge of the resources to sample an appreciable fraction of the relevant search spaces beyond 500 - 1,000 bits storage capacity, it is a reasonable inference that dFSCI is an empirically reliable sign of intelligence as key causal factor,however it was brought to bear. 9 --> Which is of course the inference that you and others object to. 10 --> But we note that you have been unable to show a case where dFSCI credibly arose from processes of undirected chance and mechanical necessity, in our observation. And, that is what would have been required to disestablish the generality of the observed pattern. 11 --> Onlookers, kindly observe this. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
05:08 PM
5
05
08
PM
PDT
UB,
AIG: Evolutionary processes incoporate information from the environment (learn) and store it in genomes (remember). UB: This observation does nothing to explain what must be explained.
??? I certainly didn't offer this as an explanation of anything. If you review the quote in context, you'll see that we were discussing whether or not ID is predicated upon dualism. Andyjones remarked that intelligent processes access information and "carry it into their action", and I responded that evolutionary processes do this as well. The point here was that one could not distinguish intelligent from non-intelligent processes on the basis of accessing information (or "learning" and "remembering") unless evolutionary processes were also going to be considered intelligent.
AIG: you seem to have been using a different definition of the words “learn” and “remember” than I was; by the definition of “remember” that I offered UB: When you used the word “remember” you used it in the context of a “Darwinian evolutionary process”. It is under this context that I responded that the “Darwinian evolutionary process” required a system of symbols and rules in order to operate at all.
I'm still unsure what you mean here. Do you mean that a system of symbols and rules must have existed in order for Darwinian evolution to take place? Or that Darwinian evolution itself operates according to symbols and rules? In any event, I think it's clear that since ID attempts to distinguish "intelligent cause" from the "random mutation + selection" sorts of processes that drive evolution, most ID folks don't really consider evolution to be intelligent per se. So: 1) evolutionary processes are not considered "intelligent" 2) evolutionary processes acquire information from the environment (learn) and store it in the genome (remember) 3) therefore, learning and remembering must not be sufficient for warranting the label "intelligent"
In your very next response to me you re-established the context of your use of the word, saying “information is stored in the genome of a species as a result of incorporating information from the environment.”
Yes. This is what I meant when I said evolutionary processes learn and remember.
Only later did you change your usage of the word to include somethig having the likeness of foam bedding.
No, this is exactly the same sense of the word "remember" that I used in the context of evolution. In both cases, I am defining "remember" to mean “to undergo a lasting change in physical state as a result of interaction with the environment.” Evolutionary processes remember information by storing it in the genome; memory foam remembers information (about the shape of your body) by storing it in the shape of the bubbles in the foam.
The last time I checked, bedfoam did not hold encoded information within a carrier inside its genome.
No, there is no "genome" in my mattress. The physical state that changes in the mattress is the deformation of the bubbles, enabling the mattress to remember the shape of my body. The physical state changes in computers that enable them to remember is electro-magnetic charge. The physical state changes in evolution is the sequence of bases in DNA. And so on.
The last time I checked, bedfoam did not evolve – yet that was the context of your word use in the original comment, as well as your follow-up comment.
??? I did not imply that my mattresse evolved; rather, I pointed out that it had a memory (which is why they call it "memory foam").
The definition you then provided had nothing to do with a “Darwnian evolutionary process”.
We obviously miscommunicated here; I think if you read this post it ought to become clear.
I never objected to your usage. To the contrary I commented on it in the same context that you both originally used it, and then re-established in your follow up comment.
Good then. We agree that "to remember" means "to undergo a lasting change in physical state as a result of interaction with the environment". So we ought to agree that memory foam and computer memories - as well as human brains and evolutionary processes - are all capable of remembering information.
AIG: According to the definition I provided, this is clearly the case. That is why computer memories are called “computer memories“, and memory foam is called “memory foam”. UB: That is a ridiculous statement. One that can only be defended by a zealot.
WHAT?aiguy
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
04:54 PM
4
04
54
PM
PDT
Aig,
Evolutionary processes incoporate information from the environment (learn) and store it in genomes (remember).
This observation does nothing to explain what must be explained.
you seem to have been using a different definition of the words “learn” and “remember” than I was; by the definition of “remember” that I offered
When you used the word "remember" you used it in the context of a "Darwinian evolutionary process". It is under this context that I responded that the "Darwinian evolutionary process" required a system of symbols and rules in order to operate at all.
Right. This showed that we were using these words differently.
This is just not true, in fact, it is demonstrably false. In your very next response to me you re-established the context of your use of the word, saying "information is stored in the genome of a species as a result of incorporating information from the environment." Only later did you change your usage of the word to include somethig having the likeness of foam bedding. The last time I checked, bedfoam did not hold encoded information within a carrier inside its genome. The last time I checked, bedfoam did not evolve - yet that was the context of your word use in the original comment, as well as your follow-up comment.
That’s right. I provided you a definition of what I meant...
The definition you then provided had nothing to do with a "Darwnian evolutionary process".
and I asked you to either accept my definition or provide one of your own
I never objected to your usage. To the contrary I commented on it in the same context that you both originally used it, and then re-established in your follow up comment.
According to the definition I provided, this is clearly the case. That is why computer memories are called “computer memories“, and memory foam is called “memory foam”.
That is a ridiculous statement. One that can only be defended by a zealot.
In that case I take it you concede my points.
By all means, please do.Upright BiPed
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
03:57 PM
3
03
57
PM
PDT
StephenB,
You know I think you just might be on to something here. If every primary cause, every mediating cause, and every output is determined, then, by gosh, you would have determinism. Seems like a good, safe bet to me.
Indeed. Moreover (this is the part I think you missed) in this deterministic world, scenarios such as me attempting to verbally convince you that I am correct, or my hoping that you change your behaviors as a result of my exhortations, all make perfectly good sense.aiguy
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
03:47 PM
3
03
47
PM
PDT
--aiguy: "If I deterministically type these characters and they deterministically appear on your screen and deterministically cause your retinas to send impluses that deterministically change your brain and deterministcally affect your future behavior, then my exhortation has changed your mind… all perfectly deterministically." You know I think you just might be on to something here. If every primary cause, every mediating cause, and every output is determined, then, by gosh, you would have determinism. Seems like a good, safe bet to me.StephenB
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
03:42 PM
3
03
42
PM
PDT
William, But of course it is not possible for us to determine if our minds are reliable or not, because we have only our minds with which to discern the answer. We cannot determine the reliability of our minds simply by adopting one or another belief about origins or metaphysics.aiguy
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
03:28 PM
3
03
28
PM
PDT
aiguy: The question isn't if our minds are reliable, but rather if one's premise allows for one being able to tell if their mind is reliable or not.William J. Murray
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
03:14 PM
3
03
14
PM
PDT
UB,
If you do a word search on this page for the word “remember” you’ll see that you said evolution could “learn and remember”.
That is correct. Evolutionary processes incoporate information from the environment (learn) and store it in genomes (remember).
I took the words you used and saw them in the context you used them. I saw that you made a complete sentence and did so in an environment of others who would understand your words and see the context of your thought. I found no reason to parse your comment, or suggest that it was unintelligible or incoherent.
Well, I would say you did indeed "parse" my comments; otherwise you could not have undestood my sentences at all. But in any case, you seem to have been using a different definition of the words "learn" and "remember" than I was; by the definition of "remember" that I offered (and you have declined to improve upon), evolutionary processes do most clearly remember.
I then said that without a system of rules and symbols evolution cannot “learn and remember” anything at all.
Right. This showed that we were using these words differently.
So now you’ve turned around to ask me what I meant by “remember”?
That's right. I provided you a definition of what I meant, and I asked you to either accept my definition or provide one of your own. That way we could communicate more clearly about how evolution was or wasn't capable of memory or learning.
Honestly…wow.
???
You then go on to suggest that humans, computers, and genomes have a likeness in their ability to “remember” with other articles such as foam bedding.
According to the definition I provided, this is clearly the case. That is why computer memories are called "computer memories", and memory foam is called "memory foam".
I simply cannot carry on a conversation with this
Oh. In that case I take it you concede my points. Thanks for the discussion!aiguy
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
03:01 PM
3
03
01
PM
PDT
---molch: "You are suggesting that a change of heart and mind, i.e. a choice, is NOT caused by, in your own words, “prior events”, i.e. evidence or internal motivations. Since you also seem to insist that the choices are not UNCAUSED, maybe you can answer the question I am asking in this thread for the third time now: what, then, causes the choice?" THE cause? An act of the will is "a" cause, not the cause. There are a multiplicity of causes for any and every human event. One cannot choose without a mind and a will. Who or what caused the existence of those two faculties? Moving past that, humans are driven by psychodynamic, biological, environmental, and cognitive factors, all of which are causes. Moving past that, the intellect must provide the will with a target to hit. The mind produces the target, the will shoots the arrow. Without rationality, free will is impossible; without free will, rationality is impossible. Moving past that, a human being's nature is a cause. As Aristotle says, all men naturally want to be happy. It is that nature that informs every choice that we make--it is yet another cause. To say that an individual makes a free moral choice by an act of the will is to acknowledge that a number of causes have already been in play and will continue to be in play. Indeed, if the creator stops sustaining the universe, all human choices will end immediately. The final act of the will is simply one more cause, only this time it is an agency cause--an immediate cause that creates an effect that never would have occurred in its absence. In some cases, God moves the will after having been asked by the agent to overcome some internal obstacle. If humans had no free will, then they could never raise themselves beyond the level of a barbarian because they would have disavowed the one faculty which allows them to say "no" to a bad impulse. Anyone who denies free will does, by his own choice, exempt himself from opportunity to make that elevation. Indeed, that is not a bad defintion of evil--a perverted will, one which has, as a result of its previous choices, become too soft-headed to resist bad impulses and too hard-headed to acknowedge its moral duties.StephenB
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
03:01 PM
3
03
01
PM
PDT
Aig, If you do a word search on this page for the word "remember" you'll see that you said evolution could "learn and remember". I took the words you used and saw them in the context you used them. I saw that you made a complete sentence and did so in an environment of others who would understand your words and see the context of your thought. I found no reason to parse your comment, or suggest that it was unintelligible or incoherent. I then said that without a system of rules and symbols evolution cannot "learn and remember" anything at all. So now you've turned around to ask me what I meant by "remember"? Honestly...wow. You then go on to suggest that humans, computers, and genomes have a likeness in their ability to "remember" with other articles such as foam bedding. I simply cannot carry on a conversation with this.Upright BiPed
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
02:49 PM
2
02
49
PM
PDT
StephenB - If I deterministically type these characters and they deterministically appear on your screen and deterministically cause your retinas to send impluses that deterministically change your brain and deterministcally affect your future behavior, then my exhortation has changed your mind... all perfectly deterministically.aiguy
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
02:36 PM
2
02
36
PM
PDT
---molch: "What you seem to completely misunderstand is that those counsels, exhortations, commands, etc. are evidence to be evaluated by the audience. And IF the internal motivations and additional evidence evaluations allow it, this new evidence can serve to indeed change hearts and minds." What you seem to completely misunderstand is that if the audience had not been exposed to the message, there would be no change of hearts and minds at all. If the message changes the attitudes or behaviors to any degree at all, determinism is finished. Indeed, that is why you refute your own philosophy every time you enter into the arena and try to create an impact. If you didn't believe you could make a difference, that is, if you didn't think you could change the course of events in a way not possible without your presence, you would not bother.StephenB
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
02:18 PM
2
02
18
PM
PDT
William,
If directed contingency is an illusionary narrative, why should I believe anything you or those neuroscientists say?
Because we make sense... and we're smart? :-)
You’re only outputting what prior states dictate, like anyone does who outputs whatever they output, including people we call insane or delusional.
I never understood why people like this argument. Here's my response: 1) Either our minds are reliable or they are not. 2) If our minds are reliable, then all of this talk about materialism or evolutionary processes being unable or unlikely to produce a reliably rational mind is moot... because our minds are reliable. 3) Otherwise (if our minds are not reliable), then all of this talk is still moot, because our minds are not reliable and we have no way of telling what the truth is. So either way we can't use the reliability/unreliability of our minds to prove anything at all.aiguy
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
02:08 PM
2
02
08
PM
PDT
UB,
In any case, do you think a computer can remember without symbols and rules?
What I'm trying to do is to understand what exactly you mean by "remember". I'll offer a definition: "To remember is to undergo a lasting change in physical state as a result of interaction with the environment." Per my definition, people, computers, evolution, and Temper-pedic "memory foam" (the material my mattress is made from) all are capable of "remembering". If you would like to offer another definition, please do. But remember, you have asked this question: "Do you think a computer can remember without symbols and rules?" So it would not do to incorporate "symbols and rules" into your definition of "remembering", since you would simply be answering your own question by definition rather than as some fact about how remembering works.
If it is true that rules and symbols are required for function, how did they come into being instantiated into the material of a computer?
According to ID, things can be judged as intelligent or not without regard to their origin. For example, I presume you believe the following two propositions: 1) Human beings were designed by an intelligent designer 2) Human beings are themselves intelligent So you don't seem to think there is any inherent contradiction in something being a bona-fide intelligent agent even though it was itself designed by something else. Thus, it appears you have no grounds to deny that computers are themselves bona-fide intelligent agents, no matter how they were originally created.
AIGUY: My question was “what is it that directs contingency in instances of directed contingency“? I don’t believe you’ve answered the question here UB: You are correct.
I know. Clive,
AIGUY: In that case, what is it that directs “directed contingency”. What is it that guides nature when nature is not “unguided”? What is it that allows processes to “see” when they are not “blind processes”? CLIVE: Exactly. That is the question. It won’t do as an answer to claim that it isn’t X, when we know not what X is. This hinges on what is “natural”, a question that I’ve yet to see answered except by begging the question. It may be a will, it may not be, but the leap from design detection to dualism is a non sequitur.
I'm having trouble understanding your position here. I'm saying that unless you assume dualism, the notion of "directed contingency" isn't characterized in a meaningful way. Unless you specify what it is that you believe has the power to guide nature, to direct contingency, and to allow processes to "see" (as opposed to being "blind"), then you haven't actually offered any specific cause at all. One answer is to posit an irreducible, immaterial, causal substance (or property) that is mental; that's why I say ID requires dualism in order to be non-vacuous.aiguy
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
02:02 PM
2
02
02
PM
PDT
aiguy, If directed contingency is an illusionary narrative, why should I believe anything you or those neuroscientists say? You're only outputting what prior states dictate, like anyone does who outputs whatever they output, including people we call insane or delusional. Indeed, if you and are are simply outputting what our prior states dictate, and intending a goal such as discerning the truth is just an illusory narrative invented by prior events to accompany our actions, why should I consider anything you say to be anything more than the noise made when the wind blows through the tree? Such arguments are self refuting. Unless you can actually intend outcomes, and actually direct contingencies, then logic itself is just our illusionary narrative companion as we bark and cluck our way through existence.William J. Murray
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
01:58 PM
1
01
58
PM
PDT
aiguy,
In that case, what is it that directs “directed contingency”. What is it that guides nature when nature is not “unguided”? What is it that allows processes to “see” when they are not “blind processes”?
Exactly. That is the question. It won't do as an answer to claim that it isn't X, when we know not what X is. This hinges on what is "natural", a question that I've yet to see answered except by begging the question. It may be a will, it may not be, but the leap from design detection to dualism is a non sequitur.Clive Hayden
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
01:40 PM
1
01
40
PM
PDT
Aig, "Do you believe that a computer memory “remembers” data, for example?" I made my point clear, again. I note that you feel warranted in using a human-made object to make your point, and then in another setting, you'll argue that human-made artifacts are invalid as a reference. That is an inconsistency that ID proponents are not forced to contend with for the singular reason that they make their observations based upon the artifact, not the "artist". In any case, do you think a computer can remember without symbols and rules? If it is true that rules and symbols are required for function, how did they come into being instantiated into the material of a computer? Did it involve foresight? Is it even possible that chaos and order could lead to it? If it is the case that chaos and necessity could not lead to it, then what is it exactly about symbols and rules that are beyond the causal powers of chaos and order. "My question was “what is it that directs contingency in instances of directed contingency“? I don’t believe you’ve answered the question here" You are correct.Upright BiPed
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
01:37 PM
1
01
37
PM
PDT
William,
One might explain the fundamental difference this way: deterministic outcomes are sequential/contextual computations. The outcome, X, is determined by the factors that precede it. Directed contingency begins with a target, X, and then develops a sequence of events to get to arrive at X. Deterministic causal relationships do not begin with a target; they simply arrive wherever they arrive. Directed contingency, however, can imagine targets that do not even currently exist, and cannot even be reasonably computed by deterministic functions (universal resource bound), and begin directing materials and resources towards that end.
It is always the case that information and cause may be moving via unanticipated channels, causing phenomena that can appears to be working backwards, but which actually proceeds via the same cause-and-effect we see in all phenomena. When a lightning bolt hits a church steeple, for example, it seems that as it leaves the cloud it has chosen its target and worked backwards to pick a trajectory. It was only quite recently that the deterministic mechanism was revealed that unmasked this seeming "directed contingency". Likewise, it appears that while we consciously experience ourselves working background from our conscious goals to our sub-goals, and from there to our algorithms for action. But it may be (and many neuroscientists believe this is the case) that "blind" (forward-acting) generate-and-test processes inaccessible to our conscious awareness may be what is actually doing the work, and our consciousness is simply narrating the results. I don't know if this is true or not, but I do know that we have no settled science to tell us if something contra-causal (or "backwardly causal") is operating inside our heads when we design things.aiguy
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
01:34 PM
1
01
34
PM
PDT
William,
Let’s alter the question a bit: What exactly is it that directs deterministic causes to have deterministic effects? “Deterministic process” and “directed contingency” are categorical descriptions of certain kinds of cause and effect relationships. Asking what determines a directed contingency is like asking what directs a deterministic result.
Physics seeks to characterize specific causal relationships; there is no single thing that we know of that "directs" deterministic causes. Perhaps if we ever find a single unified Theory of Everything then we will be able to reduce all phenomena to a single cause; I'm not holding my breath. But with regard to things we do have some empirically-grounded understanding of, science carefully characterizes exactly what it is that is supposed to be directing the effects we see. The fundamental forces of physics are axiomatic, but they are characterized in such a way that we can go about seeing if they really do exist as we describe them. Referring merely to a "directed contingency" that is capable of achieving whatever phenomena we're trying to explain is unhelpful without somehow trying to characterize what it is that is directing these contingencies. If it is res cogitans, or contra-causal will, then ID should just say so.aiguy
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
01:19 PM
1
01
19
PM
PDT
One might explain the fundamental difference this way: deterministic outcomes are sequential/contextual computations. The outcome, X, is determined by the factors that precede it. Directed contingency begins with a target, X, and then develops a sequence of events to get to arrive at X. Deterministic causal relationships do not begin with a target; they simply arrive wherever they arrive. Directed contingency, however, can imagine targets that do not even currently exist, and cannot even be reasonably computed by deterministic functions (universal resource bound), and begin directing materials and resources towards that end.William J. Murray
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
01:19 PM
1
01
19
PM
PDT
aiguy asks: "My question is what exactly is it that is supposed to direct contingency in instances of “directed contingency”." Let's alter the question a bit: What exactly is it that directs deterministic causes to have deterministic effects? "Deterministic process" and "directed contingency" are categorical descriptions of certain kinds of cause and effect relationships. Asking what determines a directed contingency is like asking what directs a deterministic result.William J. Murray
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
01:09 PM
1
01
09
PM
PDT
UB,
For Darwinian processes to function at all they need (as we find them) an information processing system based upon symbols and rules. Without that, there is no “learn and remember” anything at all.
I think we both agree that at least "microevolution" occurs, where lasting changes in information is stored in the genome of a species as a result of incorporating information from the environment. If you object to using the terms "learning" or "remembering" for this, you are incorporating other aspects of intentionality that aren't usually associated with those concepts. Do you believe that a computer memory "remembers" data, for example?
You’d like to place it prior to the observation that there are such patterns in existence which can be observed, and we would place it after we have everything we do know on the table – including the observation that order and chaos do not have the capacity to create these patterns while directed contigency does.
My question was "what is it that directs contingency in instances of directed contingency"? I don't believe you've answered the question here; you've simply re-asserted what you think "directed contingency" is supposed to account for.aiguy
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
01:05 PM
1
01
05
PM
PDT
"My question is what exactly is it that is supposed to direct contingency in instances of “directed contingency”." You've been given that answer a number of times, by different ID proponents in different ways on a number of different threads. Do you not remember any of them? Or, is it that you'd like to go through it all again only to argue over where in the causal chain of existence we place the "We don't know". You'd like to place it prior to the observation that there are such patterns in existence which can be observed, and we would place it after we have everything we do know on the table - including the observation that order and chaos do not have the capacity to create these patterns while directed contigency does.Upright BiPed
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
12:56 PM
12
12
56
PM
PDT
Aig, "It seems to me that Darwinian evolutionary processes carry external information from the environment into its action; these processes learn and remember." For Darwinian processes to function at all they need (as we find them) an information processing system based upon symbols and rules. WIthout that, there is no "learn and remember" anything at all.Upright BiPed
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
12:45 PM
12
12
45
PM
PDT
UB,
ID is predicated (at least partly) on the observation of patterns in existence which are not the effect of randomness or order, but indeed are always explained by directed contigency in all cases where we know their cause. We make an valid inference from all those which are known to the one that is unknown.
My question is what exactly is it that is supposed to direct contingency in instances of "directed contingency".aiguy
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
12:43 PM
12
12
43
PM
PDT
Aig,
I think you are right about this, UB. This is exactly why ID is predicated on dualism.
ID is predicated (at least partly) on the observation of patterns in existence which are not the effect of randomness or order, but indeed are always explained by directed contigency in all cases where we know their cause. We make an valid inference from all those which are known to the one that is unknown. Your interest in tieing ID to dualism is rhetorical.Upright BiPed
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
12:35 PM
12
12
35
PM
PDT
andyjones,
Concepts and goals. Breaking a problem down into sub-goals. Use of analogy to previously solved problems. Use of previously accumulated experience. Storing information that goes beyond the ‘average reproductive success’ of the final product, + noise, for example (thats all evolution does; it does not record success of sub-goals etc).
Are you saying all of these are necessary attributes for something to warrant the label of "intelligent"? Unless something breaks a problem into sub-goals, uses analogies, and learns from experience, then it isn't intelligent? And anything that does do all of these things is intelligent?aiguy
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
12:31 PM
12
12
31
PM
PDT
StephenB addressing Green: "At every turn, he offers counsels, exhortations, commands, rewards, and punishments to those with whom he comes into contact. Indeed, your very presence here undermines your own world view, as you attempt to change minds and hearts, knowing that the intentions and actions of those with whom you come into contact can be changed and are not, therefore, determined by prior events." What you seem to completely misunderstand is that those counsels, exhortations, commands, etc. are evidence to be evaluated by the audience. And IF the internal motivations and additional evidence evaluations allow it, this new evidence can serve to indeed change hearts and minds. Thus, this change of heart and mind is no less determined (by the all the internal motivations and evidence a particular person has, including the new one in form of counsel etc.) than a change of heart and mind that DOES NOT occur, because the evidence was not strong enough in light of a person's internal motivations and accumulated evidence evaluations. You are suggesting that a change of heart and mind, i.e. a choice, is NOT caused by, in your own words, "prior events", i.e. evidence or internal motivations. Since you also seem to insist that the choices are not UNCAUSED, maybe you can answer the question I am asking in this thread for the third time now: what, then, causes the choice?molch
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
12:30 PM
12
12
30
PM
PDT
The external environment does no more than judge the final product. It contains no concepts of itself. An intelligent agent can perform experiments upon the environment to form concepts about it, but evolution can only hack about. Any concepts it appears to hit upon can only be by chance.andyjones
August 18, 2010
August
08
Aug
18
18
2010
12:28 PM
12
12
28
PM
PDT
1 16 17 18 19 20 24

Leave a Reply