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Intelligent Design and the Demarcation Problem

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One common objection which is often raised regarding the proposition of real design (as opposed to design that is only apparent) is the criticism that design is unable to be falsified by the ruthless rigour of empirical scrutiny. Science, we are told, must restrict its explanatory devices to material causes. This criterion of conformity to materialism as a requisite for scientific merit is an unfortunate consequence of a misconstrual of the principal of uniformitarianism with respect to the historical sciences. Clearly, a proposition – if it is to be considered properly scientific – must constrict its scope to categories of explanation with which we have experience. It is this criterion which allows a hypothesis to be evaluated and contrasted with our experience of that causal entity. Explanatory devices should not be abstract, lying beyond the scope of our uniform and sensory experience of cause-and-effect.

This, naturally, brings us on to the question of what constitutes a material cause. Are all causes, which we have experience with, reducible to the material world and the interaction of chemical reactants? It lies as fundamentally axiomatic to rationality that we be able to detect the presence of other minds. This is what C.S. Lewis described as “inside knowledge”. Being rational agents ourselves, we have an insider’s knowledge of what it is to be rational – what it is to be intelligent. We know that it is possible for rational beings to exist and that such agents leave behind them detectable traces of their activity. Consciousness is a very peculiar entity. Consciousness interacts with the material world, and is detectable by its effects – but is it material itself? I have long argued in favour of substance dualism – that is, the notion that the mind is itself not reducible to the material and chemical constituents of the brain, nor is it reducible to the dual forces of chance and necessity which together account for much of the other phenomena in our experience. Besides the increasing body of scientific evidence which lends support to this view, I have long pondered whether it is possible to rationally reconcile the concept of human autonomy (free will) and materialistic reductionism with respect to the mind. I have thus concluded that free will exists (arguing otherwise leads to irrationality or reductio ad absurdum) and that hence materialism – at least with respect to the nature of consciousness – must be false if rationality is to be maintained.

My reasoning can be laid out as follows:

1: If atheism is true, then so is materialism.

2: If materialism is true, then the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

3: If the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain, then human autonomy and consciousness are illusory because our free choices are determined by the dual forces of chance and necessity.

4: Human autonomy exists.

From 3 & 4,

5: Therefore, the mind is not reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

From 2 & 5,

6: Therefore, materialism is false.

From 1 & 6,

7: Therefore, atheism is false.

Now, where does this leave us? Since we have independent reason to believe that the mind is not reducible to material constituents, materialistic explanations for the effects of consciousness are not appropriate explanatory devices. How does mind interact with matter? Such a question cannot be addressed in terms of material causation because the mind is not itself a material entity, although in human agents it does interact with the material components of the brain on which it exerts its effects. The immaterial mind thus interacts with the material brain to bring about effects which are necessary for bodily function. Without the brain, the mind is powerless to bring about its effects on the body. But that is not to say that the mind is a component of the brain.

We have further independent reason to expect a non-material cause when discussing the question of the origin of the Universe. Being an explanation for the existence of the natural realm itself – complete with its contingent natural laws and mathematical expressions – natural law, with which we have experience, cannot be invoked as an explanatory factor without reasoning in a circle (presupposing the prior existence of the entity which one is attempting to account for). When faced with explanatory questions with respect to particular phenomena, then, the principle of methodological materialism breaks down because we possess independent philosophical reason to suppose the existence of a supernatural (non-material) cause.

Material causes are uniformly reducible to the mechanisms and processes of chance (randomness) and necessity (law). Since mind is reducible to neither of those processes, we must introduce a third category of explanation – that is, intelligence.

When we look around the natural world, we can distinguish between those objects which can be readily accounted for by the dual action of chance and necessity, and those that cannot. We often ascribe such latter phenomena to agency. It is the ability to detect the activity of such rational deliberation that is foundational to the ID argument.

Should ID be properly regarded as a scientific theory? Yes and no. While ID theorists have not yet outlined a rigorous scientific hypothesis as far as the mechanistic process of the development of life (at least not one which has attracted a large body of support), ID is, in its essence, a scientific proposition – subject to the criteria of empirical testability and falsifiability. To arbitrarily exclude such a conclusion from science’s explanatory toolkit is to fundamentally truncate a significant portion of reality – like trying to limit oneself to material processes of randomness and law when attempting to explain the construction of a computer operating system.

Since rational deliberation characteristically leaves patterns which are distinguishable from those types of patterns which are left by non-intelligent processes, why is design so often shunned as a non-scientific explanation – as a ‘god-of-the-gaps’ style argument? Assuredly, if Darwinism is to be regarded as a mechanism which attempts to explain the appearance of design by non-intelligent processes (albeit hitherto unsuccessfully), it follows by extension that real design must be regarded as a viable candidate explanation. To say otherwise is to erect arbitrary parameters of what constitutes a valid explanation and what doesn’t. It is this arbitrarily constraints on explanation which leads to dogmatism and ideology – which, I think, we can all agree is not the goal or purpose of the scientific enterprise.

Comments
Green "SB you could deduce this from what I said, but I’ll try and be clearer. I cannot give you an (a) or (b) because I do not know your inner states. “Choosing” (from a determinist perspective) means having the power to act on one’s inner mental states. But as I don’t know what your inner mental states are, I cannot give you a straight (a) or (b) with regards to whether you can stop this behaviour. I cannot say until after the event." Why not say that one can stop their behavior if that is what they want to do or they cannot change their behavior because they don't want to? Vividvividbleau
August 23, 2010
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Green, when we have many mental states, who does the choosing among them? Is there a "state in charge" - a Head State that chooses among the many? Or is it like bile; do we secrete conformity to a certain action? On second thought, never mind, I don't even want to know.Upright BiPed
August 23, 2010
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Clive and tgpeeler: You are saying that "because I want to" is a reason (an inner state). Well in that case, your action is determined by (one of) your inner state(s). This is not libertarianism.Green
August 23, 2010
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SB:
Green, I realize that you are somewhat overburdened in the sense that you are trying to respond to several bloggers, and I understand what that is like, having had the same experience. But gosh, my question was so simple: “Either [a] I can choose to stop the behavior that you asked me to stop or [b] I cannot choose to stop that behavior. It cannot be both. Please–which is it?” Your only task is to simply write either the letter “a” or the letter “b.”
SB you could deduce this from what I said, but I'll try and be clearer. I cannot give you an (a) or (b) because I do not know your inner states. "Choosing" (from a determinist perspective) means having the power to act on one's inner mental states. But as I don't know what your inner mental states are, I cannot give you a straight (a) or (b) with regards to whether you can stop this behaviour. I cannot say until after the event. (But as you know, I still think you are morally responsible if the case in question is choosing something immoral.)Green
August 23, 2010
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TGP 526 Because that would involve foresight, and it has been determined that foresight is a predetermined state. I know it sounds funny when you say it fast like that, but with a great deal of reading the humor will eventually vanish.Upright BiPed
August 23, 2010
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tgpeeler and Green,
I perhaps hopelessly dense but why is it not possible for at least one of “an agent’s reasons” to be: BECAUSE I WANT TO.
Which is exactly why I posted the excerpt from Dostoevsky, that, incidentally, Green never responded to.Clive Hayden
August 23, 2010
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Green @ 523 by way of #22. "If you mean *libertarian* free will, I have to disagree. Having studied it in depth lately, I think it’s an incoherent notion that undermines human rationality. Libertarian free will requires an agent not to have his choices causally determined by anything – not even reasons. But if a choice is not determined, ultimately, by an agent’s reasons, then ultimately made for no reason at all. And this is irrationality at its best." I perhaps hopelessly dense but why is it not possible for at least one of "an agent's reasons" to be: BECAUSE I WANT TO.tgpeeler
August 23, 2010
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Green, I realize that you are somewhat overburdened in the sense that you are trying to respond to several bloggers, and I understand what that is like, having had the same experience. But gosh, my question was so simple: "Either [a] I can choose to stop the behavior that you asked me to stop or [b] I cannot choose to stop that behavior. It cannot be both. Please–which is it?" Your only task is to simply write either the letter "a" or the letter "b."StephenB
August 23, 2010
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gpuccio just a very brief comment on 414: I completely disagree with you on 1 + 2, but will let it rest, since I am much to busy to do much debating right now. on 3) you said "Regarding your post #395, I would say that you have summarized my position in a corrrect, even if somewhat incomplete, way. But, obviously, I deeply disagree with your strange statement that mine is a “religious conviction” and yours a “logically defendable philosophical conclusion”. That’s really superficial and arrogant" I apologize if I hurt your sensibilites. I was under the impression that you had agreed with that assessment of mine earlier. And I did never claim that it was MY position that was solely based on "logically defendable philosophical conclusion". I simply stated that the position that something can be neither determined/caused nor undetermined/uncaused is not a logically defensible position. And you seemed to agree with that earlier, when you conceded that the law of cause and effect must be suspended in your position. The idea that something that is NOT determined by sufficient causes is NOT undetermined is simply not logically consistent. In the logical sphere, the terms determined and undetermined take up the entirety of the explanatory space there is. There is no room for "kind of determined" or "a little determined". I understand that you want something like that to exist, and respect your conviction that it does, but logically, it just doesn't.molch
August 23, 2010
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tgpeeler: I am baffled by your post, and can only conclude that you have not been following this discussion and do not know my position. See # 246.Green
August 23, 2010
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Gpuccio: Thank you for your full response. You have been vey courteous throughout this whole discussion, and I appreciate that. I would like to re-read it thoroughly and respond properly. But I have a deadline for 2moro evening so will do it on Wednesday morning. I hope that's ok.Green
August 23, 2010
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Green @ 513 “tgpeeler I am sorry I have no idea where that post came from. Are you referring to my argument with SB and kairosfocus? Or to the argument you made in your thread? If it to the argument you made in your thread, I feel that I have responded, and you have given me no reason to think that the creation of new information requires libertarianism. I think aiguy, GP et al. have already agreed on this in the earlier thread.” I don’t know where you responded to my argument other than to admit that you were in trouble (ha, ha) and then twist what I said into something incomprehensible. What I would like for you to do is address the argument I made. I can make it in excruciating detail but that would be overkill, no? You get it, right? You know that you cannot even think or communicate apart from free will. SYMBOLS are required for thinking. Manipulating symbols is one of the mind’s main jobs. It’s the ONLY WAY that thought or communication of that thought is even possible. The symbols and the rules which govern their use, (make it possible to originate and encode information) are not explained by reference to physical laws. They can ONLY be explained by the operation of a mind that has FREE WILL to choose what the symbols will be (think alphabets), what they will represent (think words, or terms), and how they will be strung together so that THEY MEAN SOMETHING (think grammar and syntax). The very idea that this can be done apart from free will is ridiculous. And if you really believed this nonsense you’d not be bothering to ask me what I thought because we wouldn’t be having a real conversation, only one predetermined by physics. What hogwash. I can’t even take this seriously. But I will if you can address the points I made above and show how my thinking is in error. In other words, attack my argument. You know, I often provide, as a service to others who would attack my arguments, a cheat sheet. They never seem to actually use it, but hope springs eternal so I’ll give you some tips for how to make this argument fail. First, you can just create information without using symbols. After you struggle with that for say, 5 or 10 seconds and realize you are on a fool’s errand (it’s conceptually impossible), you can then try to account for a set of symbols, and the rules for governing those symbols, by explaining them in terms of the laws of physics (it’s conceptually impossible, too – see, I’m even saving you time). After neither of those things work, you can posit some other entity than MIND that does what mind does, freely manipulate symbols. I don’t know how far that will get you, but it’s a shot. Lastly, and what people ALWAYS do (and why would you be any different?), is reply with something irrelevant, something that doesn’t address the issue on the table. I’m looking forward to your version of that. But before you do that, at least acknowledge that you have no answer to the argument.tgpeeler
August 23, 2010
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Green: I am surprised to discover that you think I have not specified why libertarian free will can ground moral responsibility, while determinism or competibilism can't. I was convinced of having explained that many times. Let's see: In my #91 (to you) I stated: "But the problem with strict determinism is that it creates unacceptable consequences in our conscious representation of reality: in particular, it denies any possible role to the concepts of moral responsibility, of commitment to self-improvement, and it becomes really difficult to give any sense to human ideals and hopes, and to most human values." In your #118 you say: But bear in mind, I also pointed out that libertarian accounts do no better in trying to account for moral responsibility (or ‘ultimate control’). and:
Firstly, I’ll assume that moral responsibility requires the following: (1) The agent must be the source of the action (2) The agent must be in control of themselves when they do the action
To which I answer, in #128: "I don’t see the difficulty for my kind of libertarian account. Moral responsibility is grounded in the simple fact that different possible actions have different “moral” meaning for the agent. They can be in harmony with his higher aspirations, or not. That is the basis for the universal concept of “moral conscience”, and I don’t think it is a difficult intellectual achievement: human beings of all kinds have spontaneously understood that concept for aeons, and they still do. " And in my #140: "Your insistence about point 2), that control of action is necessary to ground moral responsibility, a condition which I feel no reason to agree with, has made me realize the possible reason of this misunderstanding. Control of action is usually required for the concept of human responsibility, as it is usually applied in law or in social institutions. That is fine, and I certainly appreciate that. But I don’t believe that human and social responsibility are the same as moral responsibility. It is good that human laws and human reasoning be in some way inspired, at least to a certain degree, to moral concepts, but that does not mean that they are the same as those moral concepts. So, here is the difference: human responsibility requires control of action, because human reasoning is tied to external facts: in law, you cannot be held responsible for the intention to achieve an evil result, if you don’t succeed in your intentional course of action. On the contrary, in many cases you are held responsible for some negative result of your actions, even if you really had never any inner connection with that result. There is nothing wrong in that. Human morality, social morality, are imperfect and external. They have their reasons, but they are not perfect, and they have to rely on social conventions and on social opportunity. But true morality is different. True morality is all about inner actions, about intentions, not about results. We are responsible of our inner actions, whatever the external result, whatever control we have, or have not, of the final exit. Human morality is about our relationship with others, and about their expectation about us. True morality is about God and truth, and our duty towards them. So, I maintain that control of “outer actions”, of “outer results”, is in no way necessary to ground true moral responsibility. Control of intention is enough for that." You answer (indirectly): However, the agent-causationist still needs to give an account of the agential-control of ‘inner intentions’. My two objections in post 114 thus apply equally as much here.. Which I am not sure what can mean. I think I have explained before that "Moral responsibility is grounded in the simple fact that different possible actions have different “moral” meaning for the agent. They can be in harmony with his higher aspirations, or not.". That is obviously valid for moral responsibility of our inner intentions. Then I was remarking that, as our responsibility is for our intentions, and not for the final results of actions, there is no need to have what you call "ultimate control" of actions to be responsible. It's enough to be in control of our intentions, with which I don't see any particular problem. So, to sum up: a) responsibility is given by the fact that our inner responses (our "intentions") are not neutral, but can be in harmony with good and morality, or in disharmony with them. b) there is no need of ultimate control of the actions, what is neede is only that we control our inner reactions. Again, you argue (in #210): I said that moral responsibility required two things: (1) agential origin (2) agential control. I then said that the agent-causal account could not ground (2) because it cannot give an account of causation (one of the pre-requisites for agential control), and even it it could, agential-causation doesn’t automatically equal agential-control. What am I missing here? I have clearly shown how on the agent-causal theory of libertarianism, moral responsibility cannot be grounded. Please counter my objections if you want to hold the contrary. and: On a more general note, I find that a lot of libertarians just use “free will” as a label to claim things like moral responsibility, rationality, choice and so on, but never really dig deeper to find out what whether they’re really entitled to these things. I think that were libertarians to dig a bit deeper, they would see that “free will” just falls apart; libertarian theories just don’t come up with the goods. They have as much right to claim that their position justifies moral responsibility as the determinist does. And they have less right to claim that they can justify rationality. The 3 types of libertarian theory that exist today simply do not get libertarians what they say they want. And in #408: As I feel like I’ve said a million times on this blog, libertarianism cannot ground moral responsibility either. So we are in the same boat here: we only have biblical grounds for grounding moral responsibility: neither of us has philosophical grounds. Finally, you sum up your reasons to believe that agent libertarian free will cannot ground moral responsibility in your post #424. I don't copy it here because it is rather long, but I will try for the last time to answer your two points. After that, you are free to disagree, but at least I hope you will not continue to say that I have not given you my answers: 1) the first point is: "The agent must be the source of the action / intention" Well, im my model the agent (the transcendental self) is the source, the only source, of an inner response, an "intention" as you call it. Again, it must be clear that it doesn't mean that the agent can originate any response, have any intention. As I have said many times, the "range" of possible responses is strictly determined by pre-existing conditions, both outer and inner. But the choice, in that range, of the actual response (inner intention) depends only on the agent, and has moral value, because the possible responses are not neutral in respect to the moral field: they may be good or bad, and the agent is intuitively aware of that. You object: But it is very difficult to see how agent-causationists can justify the idea that agents are causal entities. This is because the cause in question is in no way explanatory. I don't accept your assumption that a cause must be "explanatory" to be a cause. That is valid only for the usual deterministic models. In a free will model, it is the whole model which is explanatory of the result, and the model includes agents as modifiers of the determinist flow of events. The situation is similar to what happens in QM, where the explanation of observed events require a complex mathemathical model, which has to include a probabilistic component (which is intrinsically different from any other usual probabilistic event in traditional physics, because QM probability intrinsic and implies a different model of causality). In a free will model, the model is explanatory of what we observe, and include free agency as a part of the model. With free agency, the observed results are explained by the model, while without free agency they would not be explained (IOW, a strictly deterministic evaluation could not get an accurate description of the results: obviously, that is not empirically verifiable at present). But philosophically, there is no difficulty to conceive agents as one of the causes in a general model which can explain results. Obviously, that kind of model will never explain things deterministically, which is what you seem to require. You insist: The idea that the cause of an event might fail to explain that event, however, seems incoherent. How can positing a specific cause for an effect not also explain that effect? If the cause is a choice, it does explain. If Joe can choose A or B, both results are possible, and the one which happens will be the result of the choice. What is there to explain beyond that? One philosopher working in this field (Ginet) has argued that whilst he wouldn’t go so far as to say that the idea that a cause ought to explain its effect is self-evident, but he does say that its denial is highly puzzling, and it should not be accepted without sufficiently compelling reason. Well, the reasons are compelling: the free will model is the only one which explains the way we experience ourselves, including moral responsibility. Agent-causationists are aware of this problem. However, their only response seems to be that it is not axiomatic that causation ought to follow explanation. That’s all well and good, but it’s hardly a compelling argument that establishes that agent’s cause their actions. That's only your opinion. I believe exactly the opposite. 2) So, let's go to the second point: " The agent must be in control of the action / intention" Well, I have already specified that control of action needs not be present. And I don't see what the difficulty is with control of intentions. It is clearly not the case that wherever there is causation, there is agential control (e.g. look up ‘deviant causal chains’ on google). I have looked. This is the most clear and concise result I have found: "Suppose I intend to cough loudly in a concert to upset my enemy, the conductor, but that this very intention makes me nervous and that nervousness makes me cough. I have intended to cough, and that intention has caused me to cough; but I have not coughed intentionally. Here we have an example of a deviant causal chain, a type of example that is supposed to raise difficulties for causal theories of intentional action." Where is the difficulty? If we renounce to control of action as necessary, and just stick to control of intention, I really see no problem. Control is not simply a matter of causation. If the control is only control of choice among possible alternatives of inner response, it is. The self is the cause of the choice, and the inner response which is choosen is the direct result of the choice, and therefore completely controlled by it. What happens after, in the multi-causal chain of actions, is not relevant. However, this option is not available for the agent-causationist, since their theory posits that agents ultimately act for no reason at all. I have said many times that agents choose among possible inner responses according to the intuitive feeling of the self of the moral value of those responses. This is not "no reason at all". It is not, however, a purely cognitive and detached rational evaluation, which would have no moral value. It is a choice which comes form the innermost core of the self, where the distinction between cognition and feeling is impossible. But to describe that process as "acting for no reason at all" is no appropriate way of dealing with that. Given that they cannot use ‘acting for reasons’ as an account of control, it seems that the agent-causationist is simply reduced to the bare assertion that control is exercised simply because the cause in question is an agent. In fact, O’Connor (a prominent agent-causationist) fairly explicitly states that agent-control simply is the relation between the agent and the effect, implying that no more explanatory work is needed. And I agree. But I have also tried to give some further perspectives about this issue. However, the agent-causationist cannot be allowed to say that agent-causation constitutes control because “it just does”. What kind of a response is this? I for one do not find this satisfying. In the end, what we find satisfying is again our choice. I don't think I can do more than I have done to "satisfy" you. Again I insist that the problem of control is a false problem. The self is a subject. Moment by moment it perceives a field of representations, both of outer reality and of inner states. That field is not controlled by the agent, because it is there before it can act. Any action is, in the beginning, just an inner response to that field, freely chosen by the self in a range of possible responses, a range which is completely determined by the field. The possible responses available to the self have different moral value. The self is intuitively aware of those differences, and is aware that it can freely choose among those possibilities. That is exactly the power that characterizes it as a free, transcendental agent. The self continuosly, moment by moment, exerts that power. Each inner response is the direct result of that power, and is therefore controlled by that power of choice. There are not other factors which determine which of the possible responses will be chosen, even if the range of the possible responses is strictly determined. The free choice of thje self is the only cause of which possible response will become real. That choice bears its moral value. Therefore. the agent is morally responsible for it. I really can do no more than that.gpuccio
August 23, 2010
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GP @ 516:
I would like to say that, in a wide philosophical perspective, I am convinced too that the ability of conscious intelligent beings to create CSI is related to free will, and probably requires it...
Just out of interest, do you, or any other UD readers here, know if anything has been published on this subject? It doesn't have to be written by an ID-person. I am just very interested to know whether we need libertarianism in order to generate new information. If we did, that'd be powerful evidence for it. So I'd be very interested in reading anything on this. If anyone has any references, please could you post them up here (preferably references to books or published papers). Thanks.Green
August 23, 2010
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Vivid: I think I can safely invite you to refresh your memory of 421, 427 and 439. I just now noticed 418, too, where you indicated the summary of Edwards' view, is yours not Green's. No disparagement was intended, so I apologise if that was inadvertently communicated: we plainly disagree on points -- and it still seems to me that your remarks in 421 were corrected in 427 (and in 439 you clarified) -- but that has nothing to do with your long record at UD of positive contribution. I think this thread has been long and fast, maybe too fast moving. (Just look at how fast it mounted up today.) But the main issue set at the head of the thread is a weighty one, and one that still needs to be resolved. I think that with adjustments on minor points, it is correct. The whole side-question on free will or not free etc, was in thend distractive from a pivotal issue: evolutionary materialism cuts across our experience of ourselves as persons on the intuitive value of that perception. One or the other is wrong, and I think there is good reason to infer that personhood and what goes with it -- e.g. ability to purpose, to plan and to give direction to a contingent situation -- are not where the error lies. On the secondary question as to whether our experience of freedom to make choices is illusory, I think that the implication that love is real and pivoted on true choice, makes this also vital. On that, I go with the reality of love, and take it as foundational to the possibility of virtue. It is in this context that I see us as responsible creatures, though morally struggling ones. Though in that struggle, though weak in ourselves, we are neither helpless nor hopeless, for there is One who will help. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 23, 2010
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Upright Biped: Thank you! :)gpuccio
August 23, 2010
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Green: About your #499: I think you have correctly highlighted the main difference between our positions: I think ‘what is mine’ – when it comes to mental states – constitutes the ‘me’. I do not think that one single desire is “me”. But I do think that the sum total of all my inner mental states constitutes “me”. I know you would disagree, (along with all agent-causal libertarians). But as the determinist defines the self, the “me” is right there in action, and not missing from the behaviour. That's exactly the point, and I am happy that at least we have got a good perception of our reciprocal views. In no way I want to try to change your opinion. But I would like to just remark that considering the self as "the sum total of all my inner mental states" has at least a very unsatisfying property (at least IMO): that the true fundamental quality which we perceive in our self is unity, and changelessness. Our mental states are many and change constantly, but we believe that we are always one subject, and not another one. This unifying quality of the self as a common denominator of all the various states it experiences is not explained by the sum of its mental states, nor by any physical model (physical objects are always the sum of many parts), or any software model (again, any software is the sum of many instructions). The unifying quality we perceive in our self, which makes it possible for us to be a simple, single witness of infinite mental states, all referred to a same unvarying subject, is best described by conceived the self as a transcendental I, a single point of perception beyond all its representations. And that conception is also the best basis for a true agent libertarian conception of free will. About your #501 (to Tgpeeler), I would like to say that, in a wide philosophical perspective, I am convinced too that the ability of conscious intelligent beings to create CSI is related to free will, and probably requires it. But I am also certain that ID as a scientific theory for design detection has no need to acknowledge that aspect, and works perfectly as a purely empirical methodology which does not need to know how conscious intelligent beings create CSI, but only that they can do it. I have tried to outline in detail how the formulation of the whole ID theory is totally independent from any assumption about free will, dualism or similar, in my post #292 in response to aiguy. If you want, you could refer to that to see how it can be done.gpuccio
August 23, 2010
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KF KF As I stated in my last post I agree that we should move on and I am more than happy to do so. However you are making it very difficult for me to do this. “which is why I have pointed out what Arminius actually taught“. “Kindly, take time to look above at 420, 421, and 427 where I had to correct Vivid on what Calvinists often think Arminius taught” I must heed your own words “But, sometimes, a distraction needs a bit of balance and if necessary correction.” I am well aware of what Arminius taught and so far there has not been any corrective. As it relates to his position to the issues on the table I shared my thoughts in 439. If you want to continue to go down this road do so, but if you continue to disparage me then I am going to have to ignore my counsel in my last post which was to move on. My Best Vividvividbleau
August 23, 2010
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Sorry KP, I only just read your comment bringing everything back to the title of this post. I for one am happy to leave it there. There is lots of misunderstandings and assertions that I want to respond to, but to be honest, I really don't think anyone's mind here is going to be changed. So it is probably best to leave it there.Green
August 23, 2010
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Ttgpeeler I am sorry I have no idea where that post came from. Are you referring to my argument with SB and kairosfocus? Or to the argument you made in your thread? If it to the argument you made in your thread, I feel that I have responded, and you have given me no reason to think that the creation of new information requires libertarianism. I think aiguy, GP et al. have already agreed on this in the earlier thread. If you are referring to my argument with SB, kairosfocus et al. then that comment was bang out of order. I have been patiently trying to respond to SB, KF et al. for days now - despite getting extremely frustrated at points. I'm not saying I have responded to every minor point; there just isn't the time. But I have been responding to what I see as the key issues. And with regards to lib' and moral responsibility; I have not been the one ignoring arguments, I assure you! Gpuccio, for example, claimed only a couple of posts ago that libertarianism can ground moral responsibility. Yet no-one in this thread has shown me how. KF has not even engaged in my arguments; instead he has made plenty of assertions on this issue (and now I am not even sure whether he is a libertarian). GP did initially respond, but I pointed out to SB that my arguments still applied to his response. Only a few posts ago, though, GP said that libertarianism could ground moral responsibility. If he did read my post to SB, then I see this as someone blatantly persisting in the face of arguments. With regards to SB, he has engaged my arguments the most, and I appreciate that. But unless he has written something whilst I am writing this, he has not come up with anything successful yet. So on this issue at least, I have not been the person ignoring arguments, and that comment you made was bang out of order.Green
August 23, 2010
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Here, again is GP: _______________________ >> Mark (#463): I think KF has already answered your main points. Anyway, here is my take: Free will (the real free will concept, what is now called “agent libertarian”, but which has been for century the universal meaning associated to those words) is not an abstract concept. It arises from a very specific, and universal, aspect of our conscious experience. We can call it, if you allow me, “the intuition of agency”. The concept of free will (a rational concept, elaborated in distinct philosophical terms) originated to accommodate this intuition, and to better analyze its connection with other categories of cognition (the outer reality, the law of causation, the inner self, etc.). In a very simple form, the concept of free will includes all of the following concepts: 1) We are conscious beings (intuitive fact, directly experienced by each of us) 2) The best way to describe the main property of conscious experience is to say that it consists of changing formal representations perceive by an unifying principle, which we call the self. The existence of conscious representations, and therefore of a self which experiences them, is more a fact than a concept: it is a way of describing what we experience. 3) However, the self, in experiences these constantly changing representations, has a very definite inner intuition of itself as interacting with them: not only experiencing them as objects of perception (cognition), but also experiencing itself (the self) as the initiator of new processes in those representations (actions). 4) That intuition, for centuries, has been considered as a sound cognitive clue about a really existing process. That process has been named “free will”, its instances “free action”. Most people and most thinkers of all kinds have accepted this view for centuries. 5) Starting from that acceptance, philosophers have explored the consequences of that view for a general map of reality. The main consequence is that it offers a solid basis for other philosophical concepts, above all that of moral responsibility. Implicit in this view is the further concept that free actions are not “neutral”, but can be considered “polarized” in a moral context. They can be good or bad. Various philosophies and religions have dealt with these concepts in different ways, while maintaining the fundamental conceptions mentioned above. 6) It is also true that other schools of thought have argued that our intuition about free agency, while certainly a part of our conscious experience, is cognitively wrong, because it corresponds to not true free process. IOW, our intuition of free will is a truly existing conscious representation, but its cognitive content is false: it is a delusion. All philosophies which believe that way are deterministic, or at least “non libertarian” (as I have argued, including random components in a deterministic model does not change the substance of the problem). While determinism has a local consistency, and is difficult to falsify empirically, its logical consequences are so extreme for our models of human existence that they are usually refused, consciously or subconsciously. by most people. Those consequences include the conception that our personal destiny is pre-determined, or anyway cannot be changed by us. And it is really difficult to understand how it could be possible to salvage the cognitive value of morality, of personal commitment to higher and transpersonal ideals, of self sacrifice, in a completely deterministic context. (beware, I am not saying that a determinist cannot include all those things in his personal life: for me, indeed, a determinist remains a fee agent, capable of all those behaviours like anyone else: the only problem is that his cognitive convictions are inconsistent and incapable to really describe his human free behaviour). 7) Determinism is usually motivated by one of two opposite world views: strict materialism – reductionism, or some forms of religious views. 8) Whatever one’s position, free will remains a very living issue, as shown by the great “success” of the discussion on this thread, and all the positions I described above are well represented. 9) Finally, compatibilism. I would say that this is a relatively recent position, pretending to be “intermediate” between the two traditional views of determinism and libertarian free will. The point should be that a modified conception of free will is in some way compatible with determinism. I have tried to explain ad nauseam why I believe that such a view is simply wrong, that it offers no real novelty to the traditional discussion, and that it deserves no real serious attention. That’s my position, I have argued for it in great detail, and anybody is “free” to agree or disagree. But you, IMO, stretch the idea to even more extreme consequences: you argue not only “that a modified conception of free will is in some way compatible with determinism”, but that such a conception is exactly the same as the traditional conception of libertarian free will. While that would IMO label you as a “super-compatibilist” :) , it’s probably too much for me. I apologize with you if I have been sometimes harsh in this discussion (you know how much I respect you), but it is really difficult for me to see any sense in this particular position of yours. So, to sum up, the “after image” analogy has nothing to do with the subject we are discussing. After images are certainly conscious representations which can be explained, but the point is that they are not in any way connected to the intuition of agency, which is the real source and justification of the concept of free will. The concept of libertarian free will is natural, corresponds to a deep need of integrating a fundamental intuition of our self with our general maps of reality, has been for centuries the basis for most human philosophies, has been for centuries or millennia the basis for all the every-day representations human have of their behaviour, for the consept of moral responsibility, and so on. It would be difficult even to start to describe human civilization without the concept of free will. The concept of free will can be right or wrong, but it certainly is at the basis of all those aspects of human thoughts and behaviour. To argue that that concept is a delusion, as determinists do, is legitimate. But to argue that it is irrelevant, or just the same thing as its contrary, is really an unacceptable position. >> ________________________ So, I think we have a base for further discussion of the central questions. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 23, 2010
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Namely: ___________________ >> MF (assuming you will read . . . ): The attempted analogy breaks down at the outset, I am afraid. It also “works” by (inadvertently) begging the question at stake, i.e by wishing away our first fact of experience — we are consciously aware, minded, volitional (and, enconscienced) creatures, who experience the world through this “lens.” After-images ["negative" form], by sharpest contrast, are known results of the operation of eyes, and especially the retina:
Negative afterimages are caused when the eye’s photoreceptors, primarily those known as cone cells, adapt from the over stimulation and lose sensitivity.[1] Normally the eye deals with this problem by rapidly moving small amounts (see: microsaccade), the motion later being “filtered out” so it is not noticeable. However if the color image is large enough that the small movements are not enough to change the color under one area of the retina, those cones will eventually tire or adapt and stop responding. The rod cells can also be affected by this. When the eyes are then diverted to a blank space, the adapted photoreceptors send out a weak signal and those colors remain muted. However, the surrounding cones that were not being excited by that color are still “fresh”, and send out a strong signal. The signal is exactly the same as if looking at the opposite color, which is how the brain interprets [note Wiki's biases] it.
Now, let us look at how you BEGIN your case, again: I hold they they are either determined or random. Do you see how you have defined away the issue at he outset by deciding that matters are to be explained on chance and/or necessity only? That is, you have smuggled in a materialistically loaded question-begging definition of explanation? Then, look at how you refer to the alternative you would reject: they pull a trick on us. They say:“Ah – but if they are caused they are not real after-images – you have a different concept of an after-image. Real after-images are self-willed. Do you not see that you have now begged the question of what “cause” means? Now, the lesson is that our worldviews do subtly shape how we view the world, and especially how we interpret it. In this case, your acknowledged materialism has shaped what you are willing to accept as: cause or explanation. But, it is a matter of well known commonplace fact of our existence that we see not just unintelligent causes at work, but intelligent and volitional ones, i.e agents who act by art. Your friendly local soup can label testifies that this is a commonplace of scientific work, as it distinguishes natural and artificial ingredients. So do our courts, when they acknowledge the difference between acts of positive intent, negligence and accident. (And BTW, onlookers, C. S. Lewis wrote a thing or two on the consequences of doing away with the concept of responsibility and guilt in the court system; the sense of duty to Justice is driven out. With horrendously tyrannical implications, that begin to sound all too familiar.) MF, we experience the on the face of it evident reality of making intelligent and purposeful choices. We may — here I say this for the sake of argument — after considerable analysis, be able to reduce such to implications of chance and/or necessity in a cosmos that we have good reason to conclude is one strictly of matter and energy in space and time, interacting only by forces of necessity and chance circumstances or patterns. But that has to be shown, not assumed at he outset. And, it not only has not been shown but demonstrably reduces itself to self-referential absurdity on multiple grounds. GEM of TKI >> _____________________ Thirdly, GP's stellar contribution at 484 was drowned out in the regrettable distractions too . . .kairosfocus
August 23, 2010
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Onlookers: This thread has wandered so far and wide that I think we need to draw attention back to the original post, with a slight adjustment: __________________ >> 1: If [today's dominant form of] atheism is true, then so is materialism. [In fact, this often works the other way around: evolutionary materialism is presented robed in the holy lab coat of science and God is deemed to be out of a job.] 2: If materialism is true, then the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain. 3: If the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain, then human autonomy and consciousness are illusory because our free choices are determined by the dual forces of chance and necessity. 4: Human autonomy exists. [By experience and observation.] From 3 & 4, 5: Therefore, the mind is not reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain. From 2 & 5, 6: Therefore, materialism is false. From 1 & 6, 7: Therefore, atheism is false. Now, where does this leave us? Since we have independent reason to believe that the mind is not reducible to material constituents, materialistic explanations for the effects of consciousness are not appropriate explanatory devices. How does mind interact with matter? Such a question cannot be addressed in terms of material causation because the mind is not itself a material entity, although in human agents it does interact with the material components of the brain on which it exerts its effects. The immaterial mind thus interacts with the material brain to bring about effects which are necessary for bodily function. Without the brain, the mind is powerless to bring about its effects on the body. But that is not to say that the mind is a component of the brain. >> ____________________ And, I also wish to draw our attention to the response early this morning to MF, at 470 . . .kairosfocus
August 23, 2010
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I asked, “Do I have a choice?” [to stop or not stop the way I am behaving] ---Green: "I do not think you have a choice in the unconditional libertarian sense, whereby your inner mental states do not determine your decision (PAP)." ---"But I do think you have a choice in the determinist sense of being able to act upon your inner mental states." You have not yet answered the questiion. Either I can choose to stop the behavior that you asked me to stop or I cannot choose to stop that behavior. It cannot be both. Please--which is it?StephenB
August 23, 2010
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GP, your 484 and 494 are concise, and elegant.Upright BiPed
August 23, 2010
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Green @ 501 " If it does, I’m in trouble :-)" I agree with you. You are in trouble. But why would you ask if there is no free will? You are dodging the argument I made and what's worse is that you know you are dodging it. But so do I so that makes my end of this a lot easier. If you don't seriously engage the argument on the table then you can ponder why you don't until the cows come home. I'll ignore you until you engage the argument. Have a nice day.tgpeeler
August 23, 2010
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KF:
Above you tried to reduce the self or soul to an epiphenomenon. This erases the “me” not just the “mine,” even by gift. It leads directly into reductio ad absurdum, as if we are so delusional that our sense of self and of really acting and making choices is a delusion...
An epiphenomenon? I believe the self to be identical to all of my inner states. Moreover, all of these inner states are causally efficacious. What part of this position sees the self as an 'epiphenomenon'? Please don't misconstrue my position like this.Green
August 23, 2010
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Green, none of the Biblical passages you allude to indicate determinism. Consider just this one passage that you offer: ---"Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," What sense does it make to exhort anyone to obey if he does not have to option to disobey? What sense does it make to praise someone for his history of obedience if he was determined to obey? How can one work out his salvation with "fear and trembling" if there is not something to be fearful about, namely the prospect of failure. --" Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" Here Paul is talking to those who have already made a free choice to allow God to work through them. God does not work through people who refuse to make that choice. [He may use them in his own way, but he does not work through them]. Quite the contrary, Scripture teaches that, after many promptings, he leaves them alone and "turns them over to their own reprobate mind." Scripture most definitely does not teach determinism, which is nothing less that the insulting claim that God has chosen to damn some individuals even before they were born, allowing them no say whatsoever in the matter. On the contrary, the Bible teaches, and states explicitly that "God wills all men to be saved." You continue to ignore the obvious meaning of that passage.StephenB
August 23, 2010
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**Sorry! This:
(bear one can be a substance dualist and a physicalist).
should have read:
(bear one can be a substance dualist and a NOT a physicalist).
Green
August 23, 2010
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Green: My intent is clear enough. We have real choices on certain matters, and certain constraints such as that moral perfection on current conditions is not in our gift. We are recovering addicts who sometimes lapse. But that does not undermine our responsibility: we are without excuse for our willfully irresponsible conduct. We are not pre-programmed robots, whether at the whims of chance and mechanical necessity or at the whims of a god thought to be the cosmic puppet master. GEM of TKI PS: Above you tried to reduce the self or soul to an epiphenomenon. This erases the "me" not just the "mine," even by gift. It leads directly into reductio ad absurdum, as if we are so delusional that our sense of self and of really acting and making choices is a delusion, then we can trust no other deliverances of our perceptions or our reasonings based on such perceptions. As was already pointed out.kairosfocus
August 23, 2010
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