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Intelligent Design and the Demarcation Problem

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One common objection which is often raised regarding the proposition of real design (as opposed to design that is only apparent) is the criticism that design is unable to be falsified by the ruthless rigour of empirical scrutiny. Science, we are told, must restrict its explanatory devices to material causes. This criterion of conformity to materialism as a requisite for scientific merit is an unfortunate consequence of a misconstrual of the principal of uniformitarianism with respect to the historical sciences. Clearly, a proposition – if it is to be considered properly scientific – must constrict its scope to categories of explanation with which we have experience. It is this criterion which allows a hypothesis to be evaluated and contrasted with our experience of that causal entity. Explanatory devices should not be abstract, lying beyond the scope of our uniform and sensory experience of cause-and-effect.

This, naturally, brings us on to the question of what constitutes a material cause. Are all causes, which we have experience with, reducible to the material world and the interaction of chemical reactants? It lies as fundamentally axiomatic to rationality that we be able to detect the presence of other minds. This is what C.S. Lewis described as “inside knowledge”. Being rational agents ourselves, we have an insider’s knowledge of what it is to be rational – what it is to be intelligent. We know that it is possible for rational beings to exist and that such agents leave behind them detectable traces of their activity. Consciousness is a very peculiar entity. Consciousness interacts with the material world, and is detectable by its effects – but is it material itself? I have long argued in favour of substance dualism – that is, the notion that the mind is itself not reducible to the material and chemical constituents of the brain, nor is it reducible to the dual forces of chance and necessity which together account for much of the other phenomena in our experience. Besides the increasing body of scientific evidence which lends support to this view, I have long pondered whether it is possible to rationally reconcile the concept of human autonomy (free will) and materialistic reductionism with respect to the mind. I have thus concluded that free will exists (arguing otherwise leads to irrationality or reductio ad absurdum) and that hence materialism – at least with respect to the nature of consciousness – must be false if rationality is to be maintained.

My reasoning can be laid out as follows:

1: If atheism is true, then so is materialism.

2: If materialism is true, then the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

3: If the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain, then human autonomy and consciousness are illusory because our free choices are determined by the dual forces of chance and necessity.

4: Human autonomy exists.

From 3 & 4,

5: Therefore, the mind is not reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

From 2 & 5,

6: Therefore, materialism is false.

From 1 & 6,

7: Therefore, atheism is false.

Now, where does this leave us? Since we have independent reason to believe that the mind is not reducible to material constituents, materialistic explanations for the effects of consciousness are not appropriate explanatory devices. How does mind interact with matter? Such a question cannot be addressed in terms of material causation because the mind is not itself a material entity, although in human agents it does interact with the material components of the brain on which it exerts its effects. The immaterial mind thus interacts with the material brain to bring about effects which are necessary for bodily function. Without the brain, the mind is powerless to bring about its effects on the body. But that is not to say that the mind is a component of the brain.

We have further independent reason to expect a non-material cause when discussing the question of the origin of the Universe. Being an explanation for the existence of the natural realm itself – complete with its contingent natural laws and mathematical expressions – natural law, with which we have experience, cannot be invoked as an explanatory factor without reasoning in a circle (presupposing the prior existence of the entity which one is attempting to account for). When faced with explanatory questions with respect to particular phenomena, then, the principle of methodological materialism breaks down because we possess independent philosophical reason to suppose the existence of a supernatural (non-material) cause.

Material causes are uniformly reducible to the mechanisms and processes of chance (randomness) and necessity (law). Since mind is reducible to neither of those processes, we must introduce a third category of explanation – that is, intelligence.

When we look around the natural world, we can distinguish between those objects which can be readily accounted for by the dual action of chance and necessity, and those that cannot. We often ascribe such latter phenomena to agency. It is the ability to detect the activity of such rational deliberation that is foundational to the ID argument.

Should ID be properly regarded as a scientific theory? Yes and no. While ID theorists have not yet outlined a rigorous scientific hypothesis as far as the mechanistic process of the development of life (at least not one which has attracted a large body of support), ID is, in its essence, a scientific proposition – subject to the criteria of empirical testability and falsifiability. To arbitrarily exclude such a conclusion from science’s explanatory toolkit is to fundamentally truncate a significant portion of reality – like trying to limit oneself to material processes of randomness and law when attempting to explain the construction of a computer operating system.

Since rational deliberation characteristically leaves patterns which are distinguishable from those types of patterns which are left by non-intelligent processes, why is design so often shunned as a non-scientific explanation – as a ‘god-of-the-gaps’ style argument? Assuredly, if Darwinism is to be regarded as a mechanism which attempts to explain the appearance of design by non-intelligent processes (albeit hitherto unsuccessfully), it follows by extension that real design must be regarded as a viable candidate explanation. To say otherwise is to erect arbitrary parameters of what constitutes a valid explanation and what doesn’t. It is this arbitrarily constraints on explanation which leads to dogmatism and ideology – which, I think, we can all agree is not the goal or purpose of the scientific enterprise.

Comments
PS: Also, do you see the implication of the very analogy you chose? After-images are an illusion. You therefore invite us to infer that the sense of choice and of mindedness we have is an illusion as well, an epiphenomenon riding on the "real" world of neurons and ion-pumped electrical impulses. But, if we are so patently wrong about the first fact of the world as experienced, do we have grounds for confidence in any further experienced facts and inferences therefrom, including the chain that lead us to a materialistic view of the world and the mind? Perhaps, we should think on some issues raised here, in particular the following argument from Sect c point 15: >> a: evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of chance initial circumstances. c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. Thus, we arrive at Crick's claim: what we subjectively experience as "thoughts" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as unintended by-products of the natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. d: These forces are viewed as ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. e: Therefore, if such evolutionary materialism is true, then the "thoughts" we have and the "conclusions" we reach, without residue, are produced and controlled by forces that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or validity. (The conclusions of such arguments may still happen to be true, by lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” them.) f: And, if materialists then say: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must note that to demonstrate that such tests provide empirical support to their theories requires the use of the very process of reasoning which they have discredited. g: Thus, evolutionary materialism reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, immediately, that includes “Materialism.” h: For instance, Marxists commonly deride opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismiss qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not simply ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is simply another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And, would not the writings of a Crick be little more than the firing of neurons in networks? i: In the end, materialism is evidently based on self-defeating logic.>>kairosfocus
August 23, 2010
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StephenB
You have stated that the Bible does not teach libertarian free will, yet I provided ten passages which exhort the reader to accept the choice of spiritual life and reject the choice of spiritual death, indicating that I could find a hundred more such passages. That was not a bluff. You simply shrugged the whole thing off.
I’m sorry if I gave the impression of shrugging the whole thing off.. But none of these verses are inconsistent with determinism. Exhortations to live a holy life are the means God uses to change his people. I thought I’d already said this further up. I didn’t want to get into a theological discussion here, but it looks like I’ll have to. Libertarianism, by positing an unmoved mover, teaches that man is the ultimate origin and in ultimate control of his decisions. Absolutely nowhere does the bible teach this. I think it is very clear that God is the one ultimately in control of man’s decisions. Let me give you some verses: "But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might give him into your hand, as he is this day" (Deut 2:30). "For it was the LORD’s doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the LORD commanded Moses" (Josh 11:20). "But his [Samson's] father and mother said to him, 'Is there not a woman among the daughters of your relatives, or among all our people, that you must go to take a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?' But Samson said to his father, "Get her for me, for she is right in my eyes.' His father and mother did not know that it was from the LORD, for he was seeking an opportunity against the Philistines. At that time the Philistines ruled over Israel" (Judg 14:4). "If someone sins against a man, God will mediate for him, but if someone sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?" But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for it was the will of the LORD to put them to death" (1 Sam 2:25). Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah."...But David’s heart struck him after he had numbered the people. And David said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O LORD, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have done very foolishly." (2 Sam 24:1,10) This verse very clearly shows God’s ultimate control and man’s responsibility. "And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, 'The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel.' For the LORD had ordained to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, so that the LORD might bring harm upon Absalom" (2 Sam 17:14). "Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you" (1 Kgs 22:23; par. 2 Chron 18:22). Are they prophesying according to their libertarian free-will? "But Amaziah would not listen, for it was of God, in order that he might give them into the hand of their enemies, because they had sought the gods of Edom" (2 Chron 25:20). "He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants" (Ps 105:25). Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. Again, God is in ulimate control, man is still responsible. "Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false" (2 Thess 2:11). Where is man’s libertarian free will in this? No-where. God knows exactly the effect this act will have. Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Where is libertarian free will here? It is GOD who causes us to will – not ourselves. The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled."-Revelation 17:16-17 Dan 5:23 but you have lifted up yourself against the Lord of heaven. And the vessels of his house have been brought in before you, and you and your lords, your wives, and your concubines have drunk wine from them. And you have praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood, and stone, which do not see or hear or know, but the God in whose hand is your breath, and whose are all your ways, you have not honored. Jer 10:23 I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps. Pro 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. Pro 16:7 When a man's ways please the LORD, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. How could God guarantee this unless he is sovereign over the decisions of the wicked – if they truly had libertarian free-will then God could not be sure of doing this since the wicked always might possibly choose to not be at peace with the guy. Pro 21:1 The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will . Pro 19:21 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand. And here are 2 very explicit verses for compatibilism (defined as human determinism and human moral responsbility): Luk 22:22 For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!" Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. There are many many more verses like this. I think the bible is abundantly clear that determinism and human responsibility go hand in hand. No-where does the bible teach libertarian free will, where man is an unmoved mover, the ultimate source and origin of his decision. The bible only teaches that man has proximate control (as defined near the beginning of this discussion) – not ultimate control, as the libertarian would want. How this fits in with human responsibility is a paradox, as I’ve been saying. And Paul explicitly talks about this paradox in Romans 9. And note that Paul does not introduce libertarian free will to solve the paradox (which I think is good because libertarian free will does not solve the problem anyway). Now you might say "aha, yes, man is in ultimate control, AND God is in ultimate control" - but to me that is just word games. Ultimate means ultimate (even though Molinists would have otherwise).Green
August 23, 2010
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MF (assuming you will read . . . ): The attempted analogy breaks down at the outset, I am afraid. It also "works" by (inadvertently) begging the question at stake, i.e by wishing away our first fact of experience -- we are consciously aware, minded, volitional (and, enconscienced) creatures, who experience the world through this "lens." After-images ["negative" form], by sharpest contrast, are known results of the operation of eyes, and especially the retina:
Negative afterimages are caused when the eye's photoreceptors, primarily those known as cone cells, adapt from the over stimulation and lose sensitivity.[1] Normally the eye deals with this problem by rapidly moving small amounts (see: microsaccade), the motion later being "filtered out" so it is not noticeable. However if the color image is large enough that the small movements are not enough to change the color under one area of the retina, those cones will eventually tire or adapt and stop responding. The rod cells can also be affected by this. When the eyes are then diverted to a blank space, the adapted photoreceptors send out a weak signal and those colors remain muted. However, the surrounding cones that were not being excited by that color are still "fresh", and send out a strong signal. The signal is exactly the same as if looking at the opposite color, which is how the brain interprets [note Wiki's biases] it.
Now, let us look at how you BEGIN your case, again: I hold they they are either determined or random. Do you see how you have defined away the issue at he outset by deciding that matters are to be explained on chance and/or necessity only? That is, you have smuggled in a materialistically loaded question-begging definition of explanation? Then, look at how you refer to the alternative you would reject: they pull a trick on us. They say:“Ah – but if they are caused they are not real after-images – you have a different concept of an after-image. Real after-images are self-willed. Do you not see that you have now begged the question of what "cause" means? Now,t he lesson is that our worldviews do subtly shape how we view the world, and especially how we interpret it. In this case, your acknowledged materialism has shaped what you are willing to accept as: cause or explanation. But, it is a matter of well known commonplace fact of our existence that we see not just unintelligent causes at work, but intelligent and volitional ones, i.e agents who act by art. Your friendly local soup can label testifies that this is a commonplace of scientific work, as it distinguishes natural and artificial ingredients. So do our courts, when they acknowledge the difference between acts of positive intent, negligence and accident. (And BTW, onlookers, C. S. Lewis wrote a thing or two on the consequences of doing away with the concept of responsibility and guilt in the court system; the sense of duty to Justice is driven out. With horrendously tyrannical implications, that begin to sound all too familiar.) MF, we experience the on the face of it evident reality of making intelligent and purposeful choices. We may -- here I say this for the sake of argument -- after considerable analysis, be able to reduce such to implications of chance and/or necessity in a cosmos that we have good reason to conclude is one strictly of matter and energy in space and time, interacting only by forces of necessity and chance circumstances or patterns. But that has to be shown, not assumed at he outset. And, it not only has not been shown but demonstrably reduces itself to self-referential absurdity on multiple grounds. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 23, 2010
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gpuccio #449, #450 Let me try another tack. You argue that as a compatabilist I "define" the problem away and must be talking about a different concept of free will. Now let's take an analogy with any other slightly odd phenomenom - after images for example. I am an "afte-image" compatabilist. I hold they they are either determined or random - I expect you are too. Now suppose someone comes along and says that they believe after-images are neither random nor determined but "self-willed". We might respond by discussing the evidence for after-images being determined - the relationship between what you see and after-images etc. Then they pull a trick on us. They say: "Ah - but if they are caused they are not real after-images - you have a different concept of an after-image. Real after-images are self-willed. If it turns out that my apparent after-images are in fact determined then they will have been the illusion of after-images - not the real thing." You see my problem?markf
August 23, 2010
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Vivid: As you know, I am uncomfortable on over-much theological debate in what is primarily a blog on science issues; especially in a context where there is a "standard smear" that design theory is primarily about a stealth promotion of Creationist theocratic agenda. For those taken in by that smear, kindly observe that on the FSCI in the living cell, worldview level issues are not primarily in view. Ever since Thaxton et al in TMLO in the mid 80's, modern design thinkers have openly acknowledged that the detection of design in life forms is not capable in itself of identifying whether such designers are within or beyond he observed cosmos. All that it identifies -- and this is important -- is that cell based life is credibly, on inference to best, empirically anchored explanation, a technology. Worldview level issues actually emerge secondarily, as over the past 150 years, zealous champions of materialism, have tried to use the theory of evolution on the proposed creative powers of chance variation and natural selection, as a way of issuing redundancy papers to God. But, it is turning out that chance variation and natural selection cannot credibly account for the major body plans, and wider chance and necessity forces are not credible as an account of the origin of life. Where worldview level issues do naturally emerge, is on the inference to design of the observed cosmos, on fine-tuning. Having said that, V, I am not very happy with some of how you have framed the views of Arminians [and remember, I am of a third way . . . ], which is why I have pointed out what Arminius actually taught. In that context, I ask you to look again at the cite you made from Packer, with evident approval. I respectfully suggest that the pivotal issue of God loving the WORLD -- a global and inclusive term! -- and saving those who respond to his promptings by the Spirit through penitent faith on the light they have [cf Rom 2:5 - 8] make the model of regeneration as a temporal-causal prior to saving faith, and the related issue of a limited atonement a questionable interpretational frame. This is multiplied, in my mind, by the implications of the nature of love as requiring power of choice, and its function as the foundation of virtues and ethics. Not to mention, its pivotal importance in assessing the significance of evils in our world. I am of course simply stating my grounds, not elaborating detailed arguments on the issue; which would be distractive for this thread. I think different people and temperaments will take diverse views, and I think that we will have to respect that fact. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 22, 2010
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PS: Wiki on Protein domainskairosfocus
August 22, 2010
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GP: Interesting. Do you have a useful tutorial link for those who want to come up to speed on the general area? My own quick and dirty possibilities: Wiki on folding Chaperoning survey (early date review) Intro to the classification of fold types and sub-types DALI/ FSSP database How Durston, Chiu et al put this clustering to work to develop a CSI metric for FSC as applied to 35 protein families. Gkairosfocus
August 22, 2010
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MathGrrl: (continued) Now, I want to be clear about this point, as I have been many times. What we have described here is a typical microevolutionary transition, with a result which can be considered a positive mutation (at least in the environment where it was selected), and which is due, as far as we know, to RV and NS. In this case, like in othyer microevolutionary scenarios, the darwinian causal model based on RV + NS is an appropriate casual explanation, because: a) The random variation is well in the range of what can happen in a bacterial population (let's say a couple of coordinated mutations). b) The new function (permeability to citrate) can well be selected in the environment. Now, if all biological functions could be deconstructed as a long series of transitions of this kind, the darwinian model could work, and could be considered an appropriate candidate explanation for what we observe. But, absolutely, that's not the case. Macroevolutionary events cannot be deconstructed that way. This point is not only obvious: it is empirically proven by the fact that darwinists have not been able to produce a single detailed model of such a transition.vWith that I don't mean that they have not been able to reconstruct one such pathway in certain detail, because that could be difficult. I mean that they have not been able to offer even one reasonable detailed example of a possible pathway of that kind. Let's go back to our 1195 folds. Each one of them is an isolated island of functionality, different both at the primary level and at the tertiary level from all the others. Each of them has a different general function. Each of them is almost certainly complex enough to be considered an object exhibiting dFSCI (the average length is about 100 - 150 AAs) at any reasonable threshold of complexity. For those protein families for which Durston has made the computation with his method, many have really high values of functional complexity in Fits (see the relative paper). So the problem is: hod did those different protein folds originate? Has the darwinian theory offered at least one detailed model for the emergence of even a few, of even one, of those folds, through a series of small microevolutionary steps, all of them selectable by NS? And the answer is: no. And my comment is: they haven't, and they will never be able to do that, because those simple steps simply do not exist. Please notice that about half of those folds/superfamilies were probably present very near to OOL, in LUCA, and that the other half of them "emerged" after, during the whole natural history. You may say that darwinists are always finding homologies between proteins ion different species, and using them to understand the tree of life. that's true, but homologies are found between similar proteins, proteins which are essentially with the same fold and similar function in different species. But we do not observe homologies between different protein folds and superfamilies, as previously described. So, again, what model has darwinism offered for the emergence of those structures? we are not speaking of one or two, but of at least 1195 groups (with the most conservative grouping), or more than 6000 if we take the less than 10% homology criterion. But they could. Darwinists couls, sooner or later, offer a detailed model for one of those transitions, or for more than one. In that case, we need a tool to verify that those models are appropriate. CSI/dFSCI is that tool. Indeed, we can well apply it to such a detailed model, if and when it will be offered. It's really simple: the model will detail the possible steps, each of them with the credible reason which makes it selectable by NS, and with its molecular detail. Then we can analyze each single transition from one step to another. If no transition exhibits CSI, IOW if no transition is more complex than a reasonable threshold, the whole model is acceptable. But not otherwise. (Please note that each transition is already specified by definition if each step in the model is selectable, IOW if each step is associated with a new selectable function, or level of function, which allows its expansion and fixation under NS; therefore, we just have to measure the complexity of each transition to verify that none of them exceed the CSI threshold). So, the concept of CSI is fundamental to verify quantitatively possible darwinian models for the emergence of protein folds/superfamilies/domains. Well, I think that can be enough, for the moment.gpuccio
August 22, 2010
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MathGrrl: Well, here I am. Let's go in order. 1) You have the specification correct, but I only suggested that the object would be either the portion of the genome responsible for that function or the proteins involved. I am unsure which is correct based on your description. In all my posts about dFSCI I have always referred to single proteins. One can refer to the corresponding protein coding gene, which does not change much. Obviously, the potential complexity of a gene is calculated as 4^number of nucleotides, while that of a protein is 20^number of aminoacids. There is a slight difference due to the redundance of the genetic code. Reasoning with proteins av oids that problem, which anyway is not quantitatively relevant. But the main point which I have always affirmed is that we have to refer to a single biochemical object, indeed in general to a protein, to develop our discpourse about dFSCI, for various reasons: a) the function of a protein can usually be well described in strict biochemical terms, and measured accpordingly. Indeed, for many proteins, it is well defined, and included in public protein databases, so that it should not be object of debate. b) simple proteins have often one function. c) the analysis of a complex sustem, for instance of a system formed by many proteins, while possible in theory, is much more difficult, and poses problems which have not necessarily been solved at present. Besides the obvious sum of the complexities of the individual proteins, in fact, one should evaluate the complexity of the higher level interctions, and probably many other factors. So, it's better to stay simple and to begin with individual proteins. d) Most individual proteins, if not all, are almost certainly complex enough to exhibit dFSCI, whatever reasonable threshold we assume for that definition. e) Bedtter still is to work at the level of protein subunits, or protein domains, because those are the real functional units in the proteome. Complex proteins are multidomain and ooften multifunctional, and present many of the difficulties of more complex systems. So again, to stay simple, let's speak of protein domains, which for simple proteins are the same as the protein itself. Therefore, all my examples of application of the concept of dFSCI will be at the level of protein domains, superfamilies and folds. A protein domain superfamily, or fold, is more or less a superfamily of sequences which share the same fold, and similar (although not identical) function. The primary structures in the superfamily may vary, sometimes, greatly, buit the folding and the generic function are conserved. Instead, different domains have different folding, different function and are unrelated at the level of primary sequence. In the most recent SCOP classification, 110800 domains are grouped in 3902 families, 1962 superfamilies, and 1195 folds. So, even using the most inclusive aggregation, the folds, we still have more than 1000 separate groups in the known proteome. If we use the astral tool, we get more than 6000 groups with less than 10% identity at the sequence level, and E value > 10. IOW, in those groups there is no relevant similarity at the primary (sequence) level, and any possible similarity has to be considered ramdom. IOW, those 6000 groups, or if we want to be extremely cautious at least the basic 1195 folds, are really isolated islands in the sea of possible primary sequences. I hope I have been clear up to now. 2) The ability to digest citrate can be clearly recognized and quantified. Yes, but it is a multiple function, a sysyem, and it depends on many differnt simple functions. Most of those functions have not varied in Lenski's experiment (probably). If Behe is right, the only function which has varied is in the transport system, and that variation is probably due to a tweaking of an existing transport protein. And that tweaking is probably due to very few mutations. We are, IOW, in the same scenario as nylonase: microevolution. In this scenario, we can reason about CSI/dFSCI only after we know in detail what has changed at the molecular level, what biochemical function exactly has appeared which was not present before, and in what protein. This is an important point. We cannmot reason about CSI if we do not know the details of what we are observing (or, at least, the details of the model we are evaluating: more on that after). CSI is not philosophy: it is science. 3) That makes sense, but it is not what you were claiming previously. You gave some examples where the CSI was equivalent to four to the power of the length of the genome (or a similar calculation related to the proteins, I’m still not sure which). That gives large numbers for many functions. Taking into account known evolutionary mechanisms and the history of the system, as you are doing with the citrate example, gives much smaller numbers. Let's try to understand well this point. In the citrate example, I am taking into account the history (although indeed not well known) of a system where a small change has happened. That small change has probably tweaked an existing transport function (I am adopting Behe's interpretation here) so that the citrate becomnes accessible to a digestive apparatus which was already capable of digesting it. The history of the system is one of minor randdom variations which tweak an existing functional system, without any emergence of any new protein, or of any new fold with a new biochemical function. Even if we consider the variation in tranport a new fucntion (which is perfectly correct, the complecity of the transition is very low. Therefore, no new CSI has been created. The rest in next post.gpuccio
August 22, 2010
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KF RE 451 "PS: V, you may want to look here to see what a former Calvinist, now Classical Arminian thinks. That may help you see both sides in more detail than a sidebar in a blog warrants, with due allowance of course for the zeal of the convert." KF I assure you that I am well aware of both sides in detail, why would you think differently? I was an Arminian for many years and did not cross over without much study. I absolutely detested reformed theology and was strongly in the Arminian camp. I came into my current position kicking and sceaming all the way. I am well aware of all the scriptures you quoted and have dealt with each and everyone as it pertains to my current theological position. Do you really think I am not aware of Jn 3:16 etc, etc? It is disconcerting to say the least that the church today has abandoned the very principles that launched the reformation. To quote J I Packer "all the leading Protestant theologians of the first epoch of the Reformation stood on precisely the same ground here. On other points they had their differences; but in asserting the helplessness of man in sin, and the sovereignty of God in grace, they were entirely at one. To all of them they were the life blood of the Christian faith....To the reformers the crucial question was not simply, whether God justifies believers without works of the law. It was the broader question, whether sinners are whollly helpless in their sin, and whether God is to be thought of as saving them by free, unconditional, invincible grace, not only justifying them for Christs sake when they come to faith, but also raising them from the death of sin by His quickening Spirit in order to bring them to faith. Here was the crucial issue: whether God is the author not merley of justification, but also of faith; whether in the last analysis, Christianity is a religion of utter reliance on God for salvation and all things neccessary to it, or of self reliance and self effort" My question is why are we not concerned that we have abandoned those great truths that launched the Reformation? I am content to be on the same side as Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Bullinger, Bucher, etc. "I do think, reluctantly, as this is waaay off-topic" Here we have agreement. Lets move on. Vividvividbleau
August 22, 2010
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MathGrrl: First of all, I apologize for the slightly aggressive tone of some of my remarks in my previous post. Something in your post must have given me the impression that you were not really interested to a constructive discussion. I was obviously wrong, because your last post is very pertinent and detailed. My fault. Again, I apologize. That's one of the problems when blogging with many different persons, with very different attitudes, at the same time, and in a hurry. I have only a few minutes available now, so I will answer your remarks in detail later.gpuccio
August 22, 2010
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gpuccio:
”The specification must be obtained through a high level of complexity in the object.” I am afraid you are rather generic in defining the object and the specification. You are defining the object as the whole genome of E. coli, and the specification as the ability to digest citrate.
You have the specification correct, but I only suggested that the object would be either the portion of the genome responsible for that function or the proteins involved. I am unsure which is correct based on your description.
Second, “digest citrate” is not a very clear definition of function, because it implies many different steps, performed by different structures.
"Digest citrate" seems to me to meet your definition from 292:
A specification can be recognized in the object explicitly and clearly by conscious intelligent observers. By “explicitly” I mean that the observers, after recognizing the specification, must also be able to clearly define it, and define how the presence of that specification can be objectively verified, and if possible quantitatively measured. If the object satisfies that, we call the object “specified object”.
The ability to digest citrate can be clearly recognized and quantified.
The correct way to analyze that system is as follows: E. coli exists in a state where it performs myryad of complex functions, thanks to its complex genome as a living being. I suppose that is a goo description of the starting point. Digesting citrate is not a function performed by E. coli in that state. E. coli undergoes some mutations, which enable digestion of citrate. To make any quantitative evaluation of the new function, we have to understand it better. What is taking place now, which was not happening before? If, as Behe suggests, the only new function acquired is citrate transport, and not citrate digestion, that’s the new function which has emerged. And to understand how it has emerged, we have to know what mutations took place, in which specific biochemical object, and how that function is biochemically performed. And if, as Behe suggests, a few single mutations tweaked an existing transport system, that’s the variation whose complexity we have to measure.
That makes sense, but it is not what you were claiming previously. You gave some examples where the CSI was equivalent to four to the power of the length of the genome (or a similar calculation related to the proteins, I'm still not sure which). That gives large numbers for many functions. Taking into account known evolutionary mechanisms and the history of the system, as you are doing with the citrate example, gives much smaller numbers. In order to compute CSI for a real world biological system, you must, as you recognize here, understand the path by which that system arose. Without that understanding, your calculations are unrealistic.
As usual, your comments are generic and confounding attempts to discredit a methodology which is conceived for serious scientific application.
It might have been conceived for that purpose, but I have yet to see any application of it. Can you provide a reference to the calculation of CSI for a real biological system, taking into account the history of how that system arose?
Your objections are mere propaganda, and betray that you are not really trying to understand the scientic problems inherent in the discussion.
I find that statement unfounded and insulting. I'm expending some mental effort trying to understand your view. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some minimal courtesy in return. My objections are that I still do not see how to calculate CSI for a real biological system. When I've attempted to do so, you have changed the rules of the game.
Again, I insist: emergence of a new protein domain is the right context where the meaning and utility of the CSI concept can be obvious even to those who, like you, want to deny it at all costs.
I don't want to deny it at all costs, I want to understand what you're talking about. So far I do not find your explanations at all clear. New protein domains, if I understand what you mean by that term, arise from the evolution of the underlying genome. If you're going to require the CSI calculation for Lenski's citrate eating bacteria to incorporate the history of those evolutionary changes, you must do the same for new protein domains. Out of curiosity, why do you not consider the changes that Lenski observed to be "new protein domains"?
Why? Because a new protein domain means a new functionality realized with a new primary sequence which has no relations with existing ones.
That's not what evolutionary theory predicts.
You can obviously play tricks. If you take an existing functional protein, the, mutate one aminoacid so that the function is no more expressed, then observe that one single AA mutation can restore the function, you will be happy to state that one single AA mutation (a simple change) has generated a lot of CSI. Again, that’s not correct, and is only propaganda. In this case, the functional sequence was already there. The single mutation just restores it. It is not finding it from an unrelated state.
What if the function never existed but other mutations were selected for that allowed it to appear with just a one amino acid change? How does that not show CSI being generated by known evolutionary mechanisms?
You see, CSI is a concept for real pragmatic analysis of things.
I think the best way for you to demonstrate exactly what you mean by CSI, then, is to demonstrate how pragmatic it is by calculating the CSI for a real biological system and for the changes observed in Lenski's experiment. That would allow any objective observer to apply the same technique and get the same answer. One detailed example is worth more than any amount of high level discussion.MathGrrl
August 22, 2010
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MathGrrl: I appreciate your sincere effrot to understand and apply my definitions, but you probably still need some tutorage. Let's see. I quote myself: " The specification must be obtained through a high level of complexity in the object." I am afraid you are rather generic in defining the object and the specification. You are defining the object as the whole genome of E. coli, and the specification as the ability to digest citrate. But that is completely incorrect. E. coli may have the ability to digest citrate, but its whole genome is not certainly necessary to do that. First of all, E. coli is a very big object, and it has myriads of functions. In the same way, you could say that the whole human genome is necessary to digest lactose. Second, "digest citrate" is not a very clear definition of function, because it implies many different steps, performed by different structures. The correct way to analyze that system is as follows: E. coli exists in a state where it performs myryad of complex functions, thanks to its complex genome as a living being. I suppose that is a goo description of the starting point. Digesting citrate is not a function performed by E. coli in that state. E. coli undergoes some mutations, which enable digestion of citrate. To make any quantitative evaluation of the new function, we have to understand it better. What is taking place now, which was not happening before? If, as Behe suggests, the only new function acquired is citrate transport, and not citrate digestion, that's the new function which has emerged. And to understand how it has emerged, we have to know what mutations took place, in which specific biochemical object, and how that function is biochemically performed. And if, as Behe suggests, a few single mutations tweaked an existing transport system, that's the variation whose complexity we have to measure. As usual, your comments are generic and confounding attempts to discredit a methodology which is conceived for serious scientific application. We are not discussing philosophy here, but serious scientific models which must be applied in the right context, exactly like all other empirical models. Your objections are mere propaganda, and betray that you are not really trying to understand the scientic problems inherent in the discussion. Again, I insist: emergence of a new protein domain is the right context where the meaning and utility of the CSI concept can be obvious even to those who, like you, want to deny it at all costs. Why? Because a new protein domain means a new functionality realized with a new primary sequence which has no relations with existing ones. In that model, the search for the functional sequence is easy to define, as is the function and object. Nobody requires that the new protein domain must appear "all at once". We can apply the concept of CSI to any specific model of its emergence. The most obvious choice can be that you assume that it derives from some different, existing protein domain. That's fine. In that case, as the pre-exisitng protein domain has another folding and another function, we can calculate the CSI implicit in a random search which leads us from that state, which can be considered random in relation to the new function (there is no reason to expect that the old protein domain is functionally related to the new one, given that protein domains are defined as different folds with different functions and unrelated primary structure), to the new state, or at least to the first selectable appearance of the new function. You can obviously play tricks. If you take an existing functional protein, the, mutate one aminoacid so that the function is no more expressed, then observe that one single AA mutation can restore the function, you will be happy to state that one single AA mutation (a simple change) has generated a lot of CSI. Again, that's not correct, and is only propaganda. In this case, the functional sequence was already there. The single mutation just restores it. It is not finding it from an unrelated state. You see, CSI is a concept for real pragmatic analysis of things. It is not a purely mathematic object. To apply it correctly, you have to be aware of its real meaning and utility, of the context, and of the kind of understanding you want to get. IOW, you must apply correct methodology and epistemology.gpuccio
August 22, 2010
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---458 oops, the way Mozart conceived his symphonies, [not sympathies].StephenB
August 22, 2010
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Green: Let's look at the record: [a] You have uncritically accepted the idea that libertarian free will cannot provide an "explanation" in causal terms. Your notion of an explanation falls in line with the atheistic formula which describes that dynamic solely in deterministi/mechanical terms, as if all explanations were of that type. In fact, many explanations are not of that type. Indeed, free will, as a cause, cannot possibly be that kind of an explanation. Only a will that was not free could be explained that way. In effect, your challenge is like asking for a deterministic/mechanical explanation of the way that Mozart conceived his sympathies. So, your non-stop claim that free will offers no explanation is based on an assumption that rules out free will by definition. The analysts that you have been reading do not understand this point, which is why I asked you to read other analysts. As I recall, I even provided a few names, none of which seemed to arouse your intellectual curiousity. If some theists are telling you that free will is a physical substance, I promise you that you are reading the wrong theists, who themselves have been banboozled by atheists. The will, and the intellect are both non-material faculties of the soul. They are not "parts" and do not operate by way of "efficient" or "material" causality. Agent causes do not necessarily produce effects that way, and if, as you say, you have been reading ID material, you should know that. If you don't learn anything else from this exchange, please learn that. We are living in an anti-intellectual, post-modernist era when more people are wrong about the philosophy of first things than are right. You cannot go by the numbers. The academy is just as dedicated to disavow free will as they are committed to denying design technology. [b] In an earlier exchange, you asked me to "please stop using free will as a label to claim moral responsibility." I asked, "Do I have a choice?" [to stop or not stop] You didn't answer the question. Why is that? Is it because you can see clearly that I do have a choice? If you cannot see that, then why did you ask me to choose one option and reject the other? [c] You have stated that the Bible does not teach libertarian free will, yet I provided ten passages which exhort the reader to accept the choice of spiritual life and reject the choice of spiritual death, indicating that I could find a hundred more such passages. That was not a bluff. You simply shrugged the whole thing off.StephenB
August 22, 2010
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gpuccio:
MathGrrl: The ability to digest citrate that evolved during Lenski’s long-running experiment seems to contradict your claim. Why do you think it does not? I will just mention what Behe says: . . . Have you any new information to show that the mutation in Lenski’s work was complex? IOW, that the changes in AA sequence required for the function change were of higher complexity than a reasonable threshold? (I don’t require Dembski’s UPB. For me, 10^-40 would be enough. I always try to be generous with my interlocutors).
It seems to me that you're trying to move the goalposts, both in this discussion and in your response regarding nylonase. I'm just following the detailed steps you laid out in response 292: Recognizing a specification -- In this case the specification is the ability to digest citrate. This can be quantitatively measured, as you described. Identifying complexity -- The genome required to generate the proteins for digesting citrate is complex by your definition. The only calculation you provide boils down to four to the power of the length of the genome. As I noted, this assumes that the genome comes into existence fully formed and ignores observed evolutionary mechanisms, but it is your definition. At generation G, the population of e. coli does not have the ability to digest citrate, so the CSI for this function is 0. At generation G+1, some members of the population do have the ability so the CSI is four raised to the power of the length of the relevant portion of the genome (or a similar calculation based on the length of the participating proteins -- I'm not sure from your summary). So in fact, you are making a strong argument that evolutionary mechanisms can generate CSI.MathGrrl
August 22, 2010
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And, Green, I might add: The ultimate inexplicable nature of where the buck stops - free will, god - is why faith is so necessary; because "explanations" can never give a full accounting of what we know must be true for the world and our existence to make any sense.William J. Murray
August 22, 2010
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Green, I think you're looking at the problem of libertarian free will incorrectly. The "explanation" it offers cannot itself be explained in other terms, except for what it is not, because like "chance" or "determinism", it is a fundamental "first thing". You can describe free will as "a causal intentions", but you cannot say what causes acausal intention to exist; you can describe determinism as "necessary sequences of events", but cannot explain what causes "necessary sequences" to occur. Physical laws are descriptions of how matter behaves, so a reference to "physical laws" is just a circular argument. Free will is a categorical description of a class of cause-and-effect; so is "determinism", and so is "chance". To search for "what causes a free will intention" is like asking "what causes necessity" or "what causes chance"; the best you can do is just describe the classes of sequences they represent, and refer to what they are not. First things (fundamental, necessary principles) are not "explained" in the sense of describing what causes them, or what supports their existence; they are axiomatic premises which we use to explain other things. The explanatory buck must stop somewhere, or else we run into infinite regress. You believe in god; what "caused" god to do what god did - create the universe? Is god, in your opinion, also an entity that simply produces determined outcomes? If so, what "determines" god's actions - an infinite regress of god's internal states? Unless you wish to refer to the incoherence of infinite regress, the explanatory buck must stop somewhere in your argument, and you must pick up a fundamental, inexplicable first principle, first cause, or prime mover, that cannot be said to be caused by something else. There's simply no rationaly way out of it. And so free will, which cannot be "explained" and necessarily cannot be explained, is accepted because it is necessary as a first principle to explain other things. Such as: how it is humans have moral responsibility and the ability to intend any choice they wish, and precisely why that ability must be ineffable (if it wasn't, it wouldn't be free will, nor would our explained choices matter in any moral sense, because they are explicable in a deterministic fashion). Right reason demands that we accept that the explanatory buck stops where it must: free will intent, or else even god becomes nothing more than a machine rooted in infinite regress, churning out whatever outcomes prior states dictate.William J. Murray
August 22, 2010
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F.N: A clarifying survey on theological issues raised above. (And BTW, in my time I have been a regular visiting associate of both a Wesleyan church and a Baptist church [retaining my specific differences with both! For that matter I have changed key views over the years . . . ], while retaining my lifelong membership in my Biblical theology home church at no 58 East Street Kingston, Jamaica,where an elder is my second father, and his wife my second mother. Then, there is my Jewish-Christian third mother, and there are ever so many many brothers and sisters, uncles and aunts -- now also sons and daughters -- of the heart, over the years. . .]kairosfocus
August 22, 2010
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PS: Onlookers, above, I spoke to the worldviews level issues (and, onward, to issues connected to the most important area of possible knowledge of all: knowledge of ultimate reality, God). When I turn to scientific issues, on the epistemological credibility of the inference to design, I first note that in a great many unquestionably scientific contexts, we routinely and uncontroversially infer to design on empirical evidence of its traces all the time. For instance, in information theory, as I have discussed in my always linked online note Section A, a pivotal concept is intelligent signal as opposed to non- intelligent noise. Indeed, we even have a quality metric: signal to noise ratio, and other linked metrics, noise factor/figure, and noise temperature [which beings in thermodynamics issues]. When we look at scientific experiments, at the heart of science, we are looking at intelligent manipulation of variables and discerning the difference between the variation due to the varied variable, and random scatter and bias. Indeed, ANOVA, a major experimental design and analysis technique used across many sciences, is about variations across treatments [and controls] and blocks. We trust such methods to develop drugs and fertilisers, and they pivot on the difference between chance, necessity and design. Least squares-linked regression analysis is similarly driven by the distinction between the effects of imposed variations, lawlike regularities, and random scatter and bias. In short, in science and in much wider contexts of serious analysis, we routinely distinguish unintelligent material causes tracing to chance and necessity, from intelligent ones. Thus, the intuitive understanding of intelligence on experience and observation, is deeply embedded in serious thought and work, including scientific work. The controversies that we see above, then strike me as fundamentally artificial. Yes we may debate definitions, but the reality is that definition is dependent on conception and finding the borders of a concept. We find that borderline by looking at iconic examples and then deciding where degree of family resemblance falls to a point where the border can be drawn. A mule or a bacterium or a comatose man are alive, but a virus, credibly, is not [never mind that microbiology studies them]. In that context, the inference from observed sign to directed contingency as causal process on observation of a reliable pattern,is unquestionably scientific. But, since it points to intelligent action as the cause of directed contingency, and thus to intelligence as an active cause in our world, it is controversial in an age enraptured by material causes. Astonishingly, some seem to doubt that directed choice contingency is as different from statistically distributed chance contingency, as it is from natural regularities tracing to lawlike forces of mechanical necessity. So, they seemingly struggle to distinguish:
1] a pre-programmed, fixed text string: AAAAAAAAAAA . . 2] A chance pattern: fwgiehuu3vj . . . 3] An intelligently directed string chosen to communicate a message according to the conventions of English.
This is frankly, a reduction to self referential absurdity, as the objectors are composing strings of the class of no 3, not 1 or 2, and the difference is glaringly plain. oddly, the struggle over dFSCI in the living cell, is misdirected. For this does not in itself have any worldview level import. That life on our planet was evidently designed says nothing in itself about whether the designers implicated though the detection of directed contingency -- and note those who try to deny that such exists on definitional games, then compare with strings 1, 2, 3 above -- were within or beyond the cosmos. This has been explicitly noted since the very first modern design theory works. So, there is no excuse for the motive-mongering, ad hominem laced strawman games that have been played on this. (What happened is that the whole power of the modern atheistic-agnostic movement has been driven on the notion that if the origin of life and diversity on this planet can be PLAUSIBLY -- as opposed to actually having good warrant -- put down to forces of chance and necessity, then it can be made to seem that God is out of a job. So,the rhetorical problem forcing so many to stoutly resist the obvious evidence pointing to design of the cell as a digital information system is self-induced by an ideology premised on a psychological ploy. He who lives by rhetoric dies by rhetoric. But design thinkers are free to distinguish the gap between scientifically detecting the design of life and identifying the likely designer, relative to the evidence we have in hand on that.) Ironically, it is the design of he fine-tuned cosmos that supports the possibility of C-chemistry, cell based life, which is where design thought has evidence pointing beyond the cosmos to a powerful, knowledgeable and intelligent designer evidently purposing to create such life. Which, as already discussed above, breaks through even the usual multiverse counter. John Leslie's lone fly on this part of he wall being swatted by a bullet draws out that LOCAL finetuning is as wonderfully significant as global. So wee need not assert global finetuning. If you come across a radio set to an isolated station on the dial, you naturally and properly infer that this is no accident. So, we have good reason to infer that the designer of the observed cosmos [notice how all along I have carefully used this restricted term] intended for C-chemistry, cell based intelligent life to be. And, lo and behold, it is so. So, let us reflect on:
1 --> the gorgeous and instructive starry heavens above, 2 --> the wonders of the digital systems of life in the living cells in our bodies and in life forms all around, and 3 --> the shocking wonders of the soul within: the intelligent and inquisitive mind, the probing conscience, the loving heart, and the choosing will.
Then, without blinkers and fetters, let us ask: what best explains such a world? Why? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 22, 2010
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Green: I am sorry, it is plain that there will be no agreement between us. My basic point has always been that unless we are free enough to choose the path of love [thus opening up tot he transforming power of the Transcendent], however we may stumble along the way, then virtue becomes impossible. Indeed, love, the root of the virtues, requires free choice if it is to be real. I believe in the reality of love, so I believe in the reality of choice. And, I take the testimony of my heart, conscience and mind seriously, when they tell me I am making choices, including as I type here. (For instance, last evening, after I posted, I had a bit of a conscience prompted reflection session on whether I said too much too specifically on a case. I chose, and I am responsible; If I erred, X, forgive me.) If the sense of real choice is delusional, then I have wandered into the Twilight Zone of Lord Russell's 5-minute world, or the old Brains in vats delusion, or Plato's Cave. That is, I am being asked to commit myself to the view that he general pattern of my perceptions of he world are grossly delusional. The worldview level implications of that for being able to accurately perceive reality in the most direct part of the reality we access -- our conscious awareness -- are so devastating, that I would only go there on absolutely overwhelming evidence that I live in a Matrix-type world. Neither you nor I have any such strong evidence that conclusively points to living in a delusional world. So, I take the common sense view that our direct senses and awareness are generally accurate enough (and in that context, in the end I believe in God for I know him through Christ, as I know my Mother -- in living relationship); though of course once things get speculative, we are far more prone to error. One thing: PLEASE cease and desist from distorting the views of those who take our conscious awareness that we do initiate choices seriously. Good day, GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 22, 2010
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Stephen (& Vivid): Thanks for some very kind words. Appreciated. I do think, reluctantly, as this is waaay off-topic [Vivid, why not go through my email link in the page linked in my handle so we could discuss at another forum, e.g. my blog if you want?] I need to remark on a few points. First, let us look at the conception that regeneration precedes conversion, a characteristic Calvinist stance. Being a product of the Inductive, Biblical Theology tradition [as opposed to the Systems], my focal appeal will be to text, pivoting on the decisive case of Cornelius, which powerfully shaped NT theology through the Council of AD 48/9: ___________________ >>Acts 10:36[Peter, in Caesarea Maritima, to Cornelius and co] " . . . You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. 39"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 1 Cor 15:1 - 11, AD 55, over 500] 42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." 44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God. Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ . . . Acts 15: 7After much discussion [in the Jerusalem Council] , Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Gal 3:2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? . . . . 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus . . . Eph 2:4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved . . . 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Jn 3:12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e] 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Jn 16:7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. >> ____________________ These texts are decisive, especially the focal point that God loves the WORLD. Thus, God sent his Son, so that whoever will receive him shall not perish but have -- present, continuous -- eternal life. In that context God's grace is poured out by his Spirit, who is first come to convict the WORLD that God loves, of their guilt and need for repentance; faith being he flip-side of the coin of conversion and regeneration. In short, we cannot temporally sever repentance, faith, and conversion the one from the other. And, one who repents in response to the promptings of the Spirit, will receive the Spirit, being born from Above [= regenerated] through faith, justified and saved. Then, by the guidance and power of that same Spirit who brings to us the gracious things of Christ, we are empowered to walk in the way of the good that God has laid out in advance for us, i.e. including not only learning the path of virtue and truth, but also our particular calling in God. In that context, I am drawn to 2 Peter 1 on the life of discipleship:
2 Pt 1:1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: 2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord 3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. 5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ . . . 10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
In short, my basic view is the debates are largely misdirected and fail to catch the theme that God LOVES so God graciously acts. And in that context, we have the capacity to respond to God's grace by turning around from our path of rebellion, receiving the power of God to transform us through regeneration, the indwelling empowering Spirit, the Scriptures and the mutual blessing of the Church, the body of Him who fills [and blesses and transforms] everything in every way. Let us therefore pause and think again. GEM of TKI PS: V, you may want to look here to see what a former Calvinist, now Classical Arminian thinks. That may help you see both sides in more detail than a sidebar in a blog warrants, with due allowance of course for the zeal of the convert. As I have said, my own theology is pivoted on the focal message of 1 Cor 15:1 - 11 (as anchored by those 500 unstoppable witnesses), and is Biblical-inductive [and with a worldviews issues flavouring] as opposed to systematic, with an emphasis on discipleship, the transforming fulness of Christ [Eph 1:17 - 23, 4:9 - 24, Col 1:15 - 20 etc] and the blessing of Abraham that in the seed of Abraham [Gal 3], has come to all nations [notice how the election of Israel opens up to the whole world!]. I do appreciate say the Nicene creed (which builds on 1 Cor 15) as a historic confession -- cutting clean across Dan Brown and Co and the now defunct Jesus Seminar etc -- that gives the gospel core with its context of background and onward thrust to the parousia and culmination. In fact, as a part of a programme I have been developing, I am trying to build a course that uses the creeds to anchor a systematics survey.kairosfocus
August 22, 2010
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Mark (part two): Brief here, I promise. I am really surprised that many intelligent people are so ready to believe that isolated reasonings and pure logic are the only source of truth about reality. Most of what we know, we don't know that way. IMO, that is not true even for science (I am, in that sense, absolutely a Polanyiite). But even less it is true for philosophy, and especially for the construction of our personal general map of reality, be it religious or not. Philosophical theories use many other "tools" together with pure logics. Intuitional knowledge has a great cognitive importance, whatever reductionists may think. And most of our convictions are based on inference, which is very different form logical deduction, and in principle (and in practice) always controversial. Personal experiences, and personal interpretations of conscious experiences, have always had an important role in shaping mentalities and philosophies. And even religious and mystical experiences (and not only beliefs) are a very solid basis for vastly shared maps of reality. So, there are many issue which are probably not empirically decidable at present (or even non empirically decidable at all) about which most reasonable persons, including most of the best philosophers and thinkers in the history of mankind, have expressed detailed and very different conceptions. Therefore, I must say that I find your idea, that two conceptions about an important and universal topic like free will cannot be different only because they are not empirically decidable, very strange and biased. Equally strange is your apparent conviction that those different conceptions of free will can be "neutral", and without consequences, for those who harbor them. If I became convinced of what you believe on that subject, my life would change dramatically. Believing or not in free will can change one's way of addressing life substantially, and that is true even for compatibilists, who by their imprecise reasoning are trying very badly to be determinists and at the same time "salvage" at least some of the consequences of libertarian free will. With that I am not saying that determinists, or compatibilists, are morally wrong or neutral, or that they are worse than libertarians. I would never make that argument. Exactly because I believe in free will, I think that determinists can be good people and libertarians very bad ones. We are what we are (at least morally) according to our good or bad use of free will in our whole life, and as I have tried to say many times, for me free will is vastly independent (but not totally) form our explicit rational convictions. But there is no doubt that our map of reality can and does "influence" (not "determine") our free choices. A wrong map, especially on a crucial point like free will, is not going to help much.gpuccio
August 22, 2010
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Mark (#443): I think you should accept that I have well understood your point, but still disagree with it. Indeed, I find it very faulty, and essentially bad, reasoning. I will try again to explain why, because I really believe that it is a good thing to compare different opinions respectfully, even if each interlocutor is not specially available to change his own (I would say, especially in that case). The problem with you reasoning is that it is a very isolated reasoning, devoid of true connection what the realities of consciousness. And that it is based on many false premises. In this post, I will address the second point, leaving the first for another post. I will try to reformulate your points, to show where they are false reasoning, and then to clarify why anyway they have no connection with reality. "You and I both make decisions, i.e. exercise our free will, and I think we can agree that it feels pretty much the same for both of us when we do it." The second part is certainly true. I have no reason to think that what you call "exercising decisions" feel different in us. The first part is more problematic, and is a good example of how you (and compatibilists) tend to use badly words and reasoning in this context. Indeed, the first phrase: "You and I both make decisions, i.e. exercise our free will, " conflates two different statements: 1) You and I both do the same thing when we do what is usually called "making decisions" and 2) When we do what is usually called "making decisions" implies that we are "exercising" some thing which corresponds to the concept usually called "free will". Now, I certainly agree with 1), but I will agree with 2) only if I am sure that the concept of free will is the same for you and me. IOW, while I am ready to agree on the sameness of our fundamental experiences (what is usually described as "making decisions"), I certainly am not ready to agree with you (or anyone else) on statements which imply the use of non-descriptive, highly interpretative abstract concept, unless and until I have verified in advance that I and the other person mean the same thing with those concepts. So, conflating such different levels of verbal expression in the same phrase, and invoking agreement, either explicit or implicit, with that global statement is in itself highly confounding. "Now it is conceivable that you or I might one day discover that our decisions are either fully determined or comprise a determined element plus a random element. We know this because you just conceived it. " That's true, but it is also conceivable that we might discover that our decision are not fully determined or comprise a determined element plus a random element, but rather include a third intentional element originated from the self, which cannot be described neither as deterministic nor as random. If you debate possible conceptions with me, you should be fair and include also what you know to be my conception, at least for the sake of discussion. "I am not saying it is physically possible – just logically possible." For me, this is a very embarrassing statement, epistemologically. Anyway,as it is not probably essential, I will avoid discussing this point. "And I am not saying the determination is necessarily material. Although I believe this – the argument holds up just fine for immaterial determination." This is perfectly fine for me. Determination is determination. And I do not like so much preconceived distinctions about what is material and what is immaterial. So, OK with this point. "At that point you will declare that the decisions you have been making were not really free will." If your unlikely premise were satisfied, yes. I have already declared that. And I suppose that, if my (equally unlikely, IMO) premise (that we might discover that our decision are not fully determined or comprise a determined element plus a random element, but rather include a third intentional element originated from the self, which cannot be described neither as deterministic nor as random) were satisfied, you would be available to declare that the decisions you have been making were the result of libertarian free will. "I will still call it free will." You option. That would only confirm to me that you have a confounded conception of free will, whatever the truth about free will may be. To be ready to use the same word for two explicitly different concepts is anyway a sign of bad reasoning. "But the only difference between our two concepts is the presence or absence of determination." I suppose you believe that's just a minor detail, given the emphasis. "Before that, life continued just as it does at the moment and your “apparent” exercise of free will was indistinguishable from the real thing and was the same as mine." Again, big, very big, and very bad conflating of different things:: "Before that, life continued just as it does at the moment" this is certainly true... "and your “apparent” exercise of free will was indistinguishable from the real thing and was the same as mine". This means really nothing. There are two different possibilities, very different one from the other, and with very different implications at all possible levels: 1) The exertion of free will is "apparent", that is libertarian free will (as defined by me) is a concept which has no connection with reality (what we usually call "a false concept"). In that case, any subjective perception of acting freely is only a delusion, pleasurable as we want, but essentially wrong at a cognitive level. It can comfort us (whether we are compatibilists or libertarians), but as soon as we want to understand reality, we have the duty to discard the libertarian conception which would certainly be a source of serious error in our map of reality. If this is the case, I would never call free will "the real thing". I would call it "the wrong thing". And I cannot understand what we should "distinguish": if that is the truth, both your and my exertion of free will are "apparent". Why should we be able to distinguish them? On the contrary, our two different conceptions of free will can now be clearly not only distinguished (which was already true), but also judged (always as a consequence of the realization of your premise): one is wrong (mine), and one is true (yours). Exactly the opposite of all that is true if my premise becomes true. So, according to the possible realization of your hypothetical premise, or of mine, the result is exactly the opposite of what you state: our different conceptions of free will remain completely different, and one can be judged true, and the other false. Finally, let's hypothesize that neither your premise nor mine can ever become true. IOW, that empirical discrimination between our two different conceptions of free will is not possible. That's conceivable. I don't believe it (but I do believe that it's not possible with our present knowledge). In that case, however, our two conceptions would remain different, although empirically undecidable. And it would remain possible to make non empirical arguments (for instance, purely philosophical ones) about them. More on that in my next post. So, your final statement: "That’s what I mean when I say we are dealing with the same concept of free will." is a non sequitur, if I ever saw one.gpuccio
August 22, 2010
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(I should have been clearer above with regards to why I don't drop determinism and embrace libertarianism. Following Calvin, Edwards et al. I don't think libertarianism is taught in the bible. So biblically I need not embrace it. And philosophically, there aren't any reasons to emrace it either).Green
August 22, 2010
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Green: “I believe we are determined. Yet I also believe that the bible teaches that we are morally responsible. I do not know how these two can be put together philosophically.” SB: Did it ever occur to you that the two positions cannot be reconciled at all and that one of them is, therefore, false and ought to be abandoned
Yes, it has occured to me. But if I were to abandon one view, which would it be? It couldn't be moral responsibility because that is very clear in the bible. And if it was determinism, I'd have to embrace libertarianism. But I don't think any of these help either. So there is no compelling reason for me to drop either of them. Furthermore, I think the apostle Paul held this view (Rom. 9), as did Calvin, Jonathan Edwards & Spurgeon. So I figure that it's ok for me to do the same. And I guess I'll find out in heaven how they fit together.Green
August 22, 2010
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SB:
just one more of the many atheist fantasies that you have bought into without questioning any of the assumptions behind it.
SB, do you really think I would read ID books and be on an ID blog if I listened - unquestioningly - to everything atheists told me? Most of my views go completely against the grain of modern culture. I'm a complementarian, an anti-feminist, a substance dualist and a pro-ID'ist. Not exactly popular positions. It just so happens that my views on libertarian free will fall in line with the views of some atheists. But this is not because I have uncritically absorbed their words. In fact, like I said, most of the literature on this that I have read has been by theists.Green
August 22, 2010
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SB:
SB: Your mistaken perception that libertarians act for no reason is just one more of the many atheist fantasies that you have bought into without questioning any of the assumptions behind it.
See my post at 388.Green
August 22, 2010
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StephenB: blockquote>Green: “But it is very difficult to see how agent-causationists can justify the idea that agents are causal entities. This is because the cause in question is in no way explanatory.” SB: Free will choices cannot be reduced to the same kind of causality in which physical causes produce effects. I agree that they are positing a different kind of cause (a substance cause not a property cause). But in Tim O’Connor’s case, it is still physical; he is not a substance dualist. So why should we not expect there to be a parity between causation and explanation?
Green: However, this option is not available for the agent-causationist, since their theory posits that agents ultimately act for no reason at all. SB:You really do believe everything the atheists tell you, don’t you?
I’ve never been taught this subject by an atheist. And to be honest most of the literature I have read on it has been by theists. And they themselves – very explicitly – acknowledge that agent-causation does entail that agents ultimately act for no reason at all. (E.g. see p189 of O’Connor’s Agent Causation in Agents, causes and events: essays on indeterminism and free will (1995) – also see the post that I wrote to ‘above’ at 388 – in it I show how the agent-causationist’s try to respond to this point).
Green: In fact, O’Connor (a prominent agent-causationist) fairly explicitly states that agent-control simply is the relation between the agent and the effect, implying that no more explanatory work is needed. SB: He is trying to tell you that agency cause does not work by way of the law-like regularity of physical cause and effect and cannot, therefore, be judged by that standard. That makes a lot more sense than anything your atheist mentors have been telling you.
Firstly, as I said above, many agent-causationists do think that the cause is physical; but a physical substance rather than a physical property. I have no qualm that there might be non-law-like causation. I don’t presume to know what type of causation can and can’t exist. All I’m saying is that one would expect any cause (whether law-like or not) to also explain its effect. Agent-causation doesn’t though.
Green: However, the agent-causationist cannot be allowed to say that agent-causation constitutes control because “it just does”. What kind of a response is this? I for one do not find this satisfying.” SB: What you do not understand is that free-choice agency or any other kind of unpredictable
I have no qualm with something being non-law-like or unpredictable. But that was not my point here in (b). My point here was simply that the agent-causationist has no justification for saying that the agent is in control. All they say is “well, it just is”. I just don’t find this a compelling argument. And so for these reasons I'm not about to embrace the agent causal theory of libertarianism. And I'm not about to embrace either of the other two theories either because they reduce agency to randomness.Green
August 21, 2010
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gpuccio #380 Would this suddenly mean that you were not exercising true free will but only had the illusion? And my answer is: definitely yes. Thank you for your straightforward and honest answer. I just want to point out what this means for the difference in our two ideas about free will. You and I both make decisions, i.e. exercise our free will, and I think we can agree that it feels pretty much the same for both of us when we do it. Whether you be dualist or materialist you assume that everyone's mind operates in much the same way. Now it is conceivable that you or I might one day discover that our decisions are either fully determined or comprise a determined element plus a random element. We know this because you just conceived it. I am not saying it is physically possible - just logically possible. And I am not saying the determination is necessarily material. Although I believe this - the argument holds up just fine for immaterial determination. At that point you will declare that the decisions you have been making were not really free will. I will still call it free will. But the only difference between our two concepts is the presence or absence of determination. Before that, life continued just as it does at the moment and your "apparent" exercise of free will was indistinguishable from the real thing and was the same as mine. That's what I mean when I say we are dealing with the same concept of free will.markf
August 21, 2010
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