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Interesting proteins: DNA-binding proteins SATB1 and SATB2

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With this OP, I am starting a series (I hope) of articles whose purpose is to present interesting proteins which can be of specific relevance to ID theory, for their functional context and evolutionary history.

DNA-binding protein SATB1

SATB1 (accession number Q01826) is a very intriguing molecule. Let’s start with some information we can find at Uniprot, a fundamental protein database, about what is known of its function (in the human form):

Crucial silencing factor contributing to the initiation of X inactivation mediated by Xist RNA that occurs during embryogenesis and in lymphoma

And:

Transcriptional repressor controlling nuclear and viral gene expression in a phosphorylated and acetylated status-dependent manner, by binding to matrix attachment regions (MARs) of DNA and inducing a local chromatin-loop remodeling. Acts as a docking site for several chromatin remodeling enzymes

IOWs, it is an important regulatory protein involved in many different, and not necessarily well understood, processes, which binds to DNA and in involved in chromatin remodeling.

It is also involved in hematopoiesis (especially in T cell development), and has important roles in the biology of some tumors:

Modulates genes that are essential in the maturation of the immune T-cell CD8SP from thymocytes. Required for the switching of fetal globin species, and beta- and gamma-globin genes regulation during erythroid differentiation. Plays a role in chromatin organization and nuclear architecture during apoptosis.

Reprograms chromatin organization and the transcription profiles of breast tumors to promote growth and metastasis.

Keywords for molecular function: Chromatin regulatorDNA-bindingRepressor

Now, some information about the protein itself. I will relate, again, to the human form of the protein:

Length: 763 AAs. It’s a rather big protein, like many important regulatory molecules.

Its subcellular location is in the nucleus.

It is a multi-domain protein, with at least 5 detectable domains and many DNA binding sites.

Evolutionary history of SATB1

Now, let’s see some features of the evolutionary history of this protein in the course of metazoa evolution.

I will use here the same tools that I have developed and presented in my previous OP:

The amazing level of engineering in the transition to the vertebrate proteome: a global analysis

So, I invite all those who are interested in the technical details to refer to that OP.

Here is a graph of the levels of homology to the human protein detectable in other metazoan groups, expressed as mean bitscore per aminoacid site:

 

Fig. 1: Evolutionary history of SATB1 by human-conserved functional information

 

The green line represents the evolutionary history of our protein, while the red dotted line is the reference mean line for the groups considered, as already presented in my previous post quoted above (Fig. 2).

As everyone can see, this specific protein has a very sudden gain in human-conserved information with the transition from pre-vertebrates to vertebrates. So, it represents a very good example of the information jump that I have tried to quantify globally in my previous post.

Here, the jump is of almost 1.5 bits per aminoacid site. What does that mean?

Let’s remember that the protein is 763 AA long. Therefore, an increase of information of 1.5 bits per aminoacid corresponds to more than 1000 bits of information. To be precise, the jump from the best pre-vertebrate hit to the best hit in cartilaginous fish is:

1049 bits

But let’s see more in detail how the jump happens.

I will show here in detail some results of protein blasts. All of them have been obtained using the Blastp software at the NCBI site:

https://blast.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Blast.cgi?PROGRAM=blastp&PAGE_TYPE=BlastSearch&LINK_LOC=blasthome

with default settings.

Here is the result of blasting the human protein against all known protein sequences except for vertebrate sequences:

Fig. 2: Results of blasting human SATB1 against all non vertebrate protein sequences

 

As can be seen, we find only low homologies in non vertebrates, and they are essentially restricted to a small part of the molecule, that correspond to the first two domains in the protein, or just to the first domain. The image shows clearly that all the rest of the sequence has no detectable significant homologies in non vertebrates (except for a couple of very low homologies for the third domain).

The best hit in non vertebrates is 154 bits with Parasteatoda tepidariorum, a spider. Here it is:

Fig. 3: The best hit in non vertebrates (with a spider)

The upper line (Query) is the human sequence. The bottom line (Sbjct) is the aligned sequence of the spider. In the middle line, letters are identities, “+” characters are similarities (substitutions which are frequently observed in proteins, and are probably quasi-neutral), and empty spaces are less frequent substitutions, those that are more likely to affect protein structure and function if they happen at a functionally important aminoacid site.

The alignment here is absolutely restricted to AAs 71 – 245 (the first two domains), and involves only 177 AAs. Of these, only 78 (44%) are identities and 111 (62%) are positives (identities + similarities). So, in the whole protein we have only 78 identities out of 763 (10.2%).

The spider protein is labeled as “uncharacterized protein”, and that is the case in most of the other non vertebrate hits.

All the other non vertebrate hits, with a couple of exceptions, are well below 100 bits, most of them between 70 and 86 bits.

IOWs, the protein as we know it in vertebrates essentially does not exist in non vertebrates.

Even non vertebrate deuterostomia, which should be the nearest precursors of the first vertebrates, have extremely low homology bitscores with the human protein:

Saccoglossus kowalevskii (hemichordates):  87 bits

Branchiostoma floridae (cephalochordate): 67 bits

The information jump in vertebrates

Now, what happens with the first vertebrates?

The oldest split in vertebrates is the one between cartilaginous fish and bony fish (from which the human lineage derives). Therefore, homologies that are conserved between cartilaginous fish and humans had reasonably to be already present in the Last Common Ancestor of Vertebrates, before the split between cartilaginous fish and bony fish, and have been conserved for about 420 million years.

So, let’s see the best hit between the human protein and cartilaginous fish. It is with Rhincodon typus (whale shark). Here it is:

 

Fig. 4: The best hit of human SATB1 in cartilaginous fish (with the whale shark)

 

Here, the alignment involves practically the whole molecule (756 AAs), and we have 1203 bits of homology, 603 identities (79%), 659 positives (86%).

IOWs, the two molecules are almost identical. And the homology is extremely high not only in the domain parts, but also in the rest of the protein sequence.

Now, the evolutionary time between pre-vertebrates and the first split in vertebrates is certainly rather small, a few million years, or at most 20 – 30 million years. Not a big chronological window at all, in evolutionary terms.

However, in that window, this protein appears almost complete. 603 aminoacids are already those that will remain up to the human form of the protein, and only 78 of them were detectable in the best hit before vertebrate appearance.

1049 bits of new, original functional information. In such a short evolutionary window.

Functionality

Why functional? Because those 603 aminoacid have remained the same thorugh more than 400 million years of evolution. They have evaded neutral or quasi neutral variation, that would have certainly completely transformed the sequence in such a big evolutionary time, if those aminoacid sites were not under extreme functional constraint and purifying (negative) selection.

Now, I say that this fact cannot in any way be explained by any neo-darwinian model. Absolutely not.

Moreover, there is absolutely no evidence in the available proteome of any intermediate form, of any gradual development of the functional sequence that will be conserved up to humans (except, of course, for the 50 – 78 AAs which are already detectable in the first two domains in many pre -vertebrates).

By the way, Callorhincus milii, the Elephant shark, has almost identical values of homology:

1184 bits, 599 identities, 654 positives

But, how important is this protein?

In the ExAC database, a database of variations in the human genome, missense mutations are 110 out of 260.3 expected, with a z score of 4.56, an extremely high measure of functional constraint.

The recent medical literature has a lot of articles about the important role of SATB1 at least in two big fields:

  • T cell development
  • Tumor development (many different kinds of tumors)

If we want to sum up in a few words what is known, we could say that SATB1 is considered a master regulator, essentially a complex transcription repressor, involved mainly (but not only) in the development of the immune system, in particular T cells. A disregulation of this protein is linked to many aspects of tumor invasivity (especially metastases). The protein seems to act, among other possibilities, as a global organizer of chromatin states.

Here is a very brief recent bibliography:

Essential Roles of SATB1 in Specifying T Lymphocyte Subsets

SATB1 overexpression correlates with gastrointestinal neoplasms invasion and metastasis: a meta-analysis for Chinese population

SATB1-mediated Functional Packaging of Chromatin into Loops

DNA-binding protein SATB2

But there is more. There is another protein which is very similar to SATB1. It is called DNA-binding protein SATB2 (accession number Q9UPW6).

Its length is very similar to SATB1: 733 AAs.

Uniprot describes its function as follows:

Binds to DNA, at nuclear matrix- or scaffold-associated regions. Thought to recognize the sugar-phosphate structure of double-stranded DNA. Transcription factor controlling nuclear gene expression, by binding to matrix attachment regions (MARs) of DNA and inducing a local chromatin-loop remodeling. Acts as a docking site for several chromatin remodeling enzymes

Which is very similar to SATB1. But now come the differences. While SATB1 is implied prevalently in T cell development and tumor development, SATB2 is:

Required for the initiation of the upper-layer neurons (UL1) specific genetic program and for the inactivation of deep-layer neurons (DL) and UL2 specific genes, probably by modulating BCL11B expression. Repressor of Ctip2 and regulatory determinant of corticocortical connections in the developing cerebral cortex. May play an important role in palate formation. Acts as a molecular node in a transcriptional network regulating skeletal development and osteoblast differentiation

So, similar proteins with rather different specificities. While SATB1 is mainly connexted to adaptive immunity (T cell development), SATB2 seems to be more linked to neuronal development. Like SATB1, it is involved in cancer development, although usually in different types of cancer.

Here is a brief recent bibliography about SATB2:

Mutual regulation between Satb2 and Fezf2 promotes subcerebral projection neuron identity in the developing cerebral cortex

SATB1 and SATB2 play opposing roles in c-Myc expression and progression of colorectal cancer

However, how similar is SATB2 to SATB1 in terms of sequence homology?

Here is a direct blast of the two human molecules:

 

Fig. 5: Blast of human SATB1 vs human SATB2:

 

OK, they are very similar, but…  only 460 identities, 550 positives, 854 bits. IOWs, these two human proteins are similar, but not so similar as the two sequences of SATB1 in the shark and in humans.

Now, here is the evolutionary history of SATB2:

 

Fig. 6: Evolutionary history of SATB2 by human-conserved functional information

 

As everyone can see, it is almost identical to the evolutionary history of SATB1. To see it even better, Fig. 7 shows the two evolutionary histories together (the green line is SATB1, the brown line is SATB2):

 

Fig. 7: Evolutionary history of SATB1 and SATB2 by human-conserved functional information

 

In particular, pre-vertebrate history and the jump in cartilaginous fish are practically identical. And yet these are two different molecules, as we have seen, with different specificities and about one third of difference in sequence.

Now, let’s blast human SATB2 against cartilaginous fish. Again the best hit is with the whale shark:

 

Fig. 8: The best hit of human SATB2 in cartilaginous fish (with the whale shark)

 

And the numbers are very similar, incredibly similar I would say, to those we found for SATB1:

1197 bits, 592 identities, 662 positives.

But what if we blast SATB1 of the whale shark against SATB2 of the whale shark?

Here are the results:

 

Fig. 9: Blast of whale shark SATB1 vs whale shark SATB2:

Now, please, compare the numbers we got here with those from the similar blast between the two proteins in humans:

SATB1 human vs SATB2 human:  460 identities, 550 positives, 854 bits

SATB1 shark vs SATB2 shark:      468 identities, 556 positives, 856 bits

Almost exactly the same numbers! Wow!

What does that mean?

It means that this system of two similar proteins with different function arises in vertebrates as a whole system, already complete, with the two components already differentiated, and is conserved almost identical up to humans. Indeed, SATB1 and SATB2 have the same degree of homology both in sharks and in humans, and the two SATB1 proteins in shark and humans, as well as the two SATB2 proteins in shark and humans, have greater similarity, after more than 400 million years of divergence, than SATB1 and SATB2 show when compared, both in sharks and in humans.

Would you describe that as sudden appearance of huge amounts of functional information, followed by an extremely long stasis? I certainly would!

The following table sums up these results:

Sequence 1 Sequence 2 Bitscore
SATB1 Human SATB2 Human 854
SATB1 Shark SATB2 Shark 856
SATB1 Human SATB1 Shark 1203
SATB2 Human SATB2 Shark 1197

IOWs, the whole system appeared practically as it is today, before the split of cartilaginous fish and bony fish, and has retained its essential form up to now.

So, the total amount of new functional information implied by the whole system of these two proteins is about 1545 bits (considering 855 bits of common information, and 345 bits x 2 of specific information in each molecule).

An amazing amount, for a system of just two molecules, considering that 500 bits is Dembski’s Universal Probability Bound!

Let’s remember that in my previous post, quoted above, I showed that the informational jump from pre-vertebrates to vertebrates is more than 1.7 million bits. That’s a very big number, but big numbers sometimes are not easily digested. So, I believe that seeing that just two important molecules can contribute for almost 1500 bits can help us understand what we are really seeing here.

Moreover, it’s certainly not a case that those two molecules seem to be fundamental in two very particular fields:

a) The adaptive immune system

b) The nervous system

if we consider that those are exactly the two most relevant developments in vertebrates.

And, as a final note, please consider that these are very complex master regulators, which interact with tens of other complex proteins to effect their functions. The whole system is certainly much more irreducibly complex than we can imagine.

But still, just the analysis of these two sister proteins is more than enough to demonstrate that the neo Darwinian paradigm is completely inappropriate to explain what we can see in the proteome and in its natural history. And this is only one example among thousands.

So, I want to conclude repeating again this strong and very convinced statement:

The observed facts described here cannot in any way be explained by any neo-darwinian model. Absolutely not. They are extremely strong evidence for a design inference.

Comments
Mung: Can you suggest a metrics? :)gpuccio
July 27, 2017
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bill cole: "Very nice post." Thank you! :) "I would second Mung’s interest in proteins unique to the eye." I am doing what I can. "This is an area that looks like it is very hard for the darwinian mechanism to explain." Absolutely! "Mung did a masterful job at TSZ in challenging a new evolution book. The author paid a visit to defend his work." I am sure Mung was brilliant. I can feel some pity for the author. "I have come up with a definition for Common descent called orthodox common descent. These are the evolutionary biologists that make the claim that animal life is connected by cell division and reproduction alone. I would consider you a reform common descent supporter because you allow a potentially Divine foot in the door called design. I join you in this group. I think Mike Behe and Mung also are part of this group." Very good definitions. You are absolutely on target. However, for consistency with my position, I would not use the term "Divine foot", and would just stick to a "design foot". :)gpuccio
July 27, 2017
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ET @ 241: I don't know. Let's ask some. rvb8, how pathetically gullible are you?Mung
July 27, 2017
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Mung: Of the five opsins mentioned at #240, only three are present in humans (RH2 and SWS2 have been lost, as evident also in the Figure about opsin gain and loss at the genomewiki link. Of those three, two are proteins with a big jump in vertebrates, as I have already pointed out in my post #182: a) Rhodopsin (P08100). 348 AAs. Jump from non vertebrates to vertebrates: 1.091954 bits per aminoacid site 380 bits 288 identities; 321 positives b) Long-wave-sensitive opsin 1 (P04000). 364 AAs. Jump from non vertebrates to vertebrates: 0.8901099 bits per aminoacid site 324 bits The third one, SWS1, has a different curve, with low homology in sharks, and a big jump in bony fish and amphibians, lost in crocodiles, conserved in further species. Again, that can already be seen in the figure at genomewiki.gpuccio
July 27, 2017
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So blind and mindless processes can produce tunable proteins for various light wavelengths? Is that really the argument? How pathetically gullible are evolutionists?ET
July 26, 2017
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I don't know. I don't want to overload our good friend gpuccio.
Most vertebrates have a single type of chromophore, but five groups of opsin proteins exist: rhodopsin (RH1) and RH1-like (RH2) which are maximally activated by light in the blue-green part of the spectrum ... short-wavelength-sensitive opsin-1 (SWS1), which is maximally activated by violate-blue wavelengths ... short-wavelength-sensitive opsin-2 (SWS2), which is maximally activated by ultra-violate wavelengths ... and a long-wavelength- to medium-wavelength-sensitive opsin (LWS/MWS), which is maximally activated by green-red wavelengths ... - Convergent Evolution: Limited Forms Most Beautiful (p. 179)
Oh, and "there are only a limited number of sites within opsin that can be altered without producing a non-functional pigment." (p. 182) Perhaps Doug Axe should have chosen opsins, lol.Mung
July 26, 2017
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gpuccio Very nice post. I would second Mung's interest in proteins unique to the eye. This is an area that looks like it is very hard for the darwinian mechanism to explain. Mung did a masterful job at TSZ in challenging a new evolution book. The author paid a visit to defend his work. I have come up with a definition for Common descent called orthodox common descent. These are the evolutionary biologists that make the claim that animal life is connected by cell division and reproduction alone. I would consider you a reform common descent supporter because you allow a potentially Devine foot in the door called design. I join you in this group. I think Mike Behe and Mung also are part of this group.bill cole
July 26, 2017
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Please don't denature the proteins!Mung
July 26, 2017
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gpuccio: Does this relate to the topic of sudden appearance of functional information in proteins?
A glimpse into the specialization history of the lipases/acyltransferases family of CpLIP2 Biochimica et Biophysica Acta (BBA) - Proteins and Proteomics Volume 1865, Issue 9, September 2017, Pages 1105-1113 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bbapap.2017.06.004 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570963917301255
There is more here: https://www.scopus.com/results/citedbyresults.uri?sort=plf-f&cite=2-s2.0-77955584075&src=s&imp=t&sid=9a23a7d92603c0c6151eda7d36cddffc&sot=cite&sdt=a&sl=0&origin=inward&editSaveSearch=&txGid=6b3ad6f761091807a7c0138bb2888bf4Dionisio
July 26, 2017
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gpuccio: Bing SATB1 SATB2 returns different results. On the 5th page this appears:
Evolution News and Views on Dawkins dumped from Berkeley ... uncommondescent.com 4 days ago https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/interesting-proteins-dna-binding-proteins-satb1-and-satb2/#comment-636372. 37. MatSpirit July 24, 2017 at 11:14 am.
That's pointing to a link at the end of my comment @36 in another thread: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evolution-news-and-views-on-dawkins-dumped-from-berkeley-did-it-serve-him-right/#comment-636381 Then later on page 16 of the search results I see this:
Uncommon Descent | Serving The Intelligent Design Community kin.tv Interesting proteins: DNA-binding proteins SATB1 and SATB2. July 14, 2017: Posted by gpuccio under Intelligent Design: 9 Comments.
Yes, definitely you've disturbed a couple of VIPs :)Dionisio
July 26, 2017
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gpuccio: There is a large number of papers on SATB1 and SATB2. It's difficult to see them all. Many papers on those two proteins deal with the deleterious effect of any problems with their regulation and expression. You definitely touched a very sensitive area of the proteome. Now, look at this: Google SATB1 SATB2 and see how many pages of search results you get in return. I see 14 pages. Notice at the end of the 4th page your latest OP (this thread)!!! O boy, what have you done? :) OK, confess publicly right here that you knew this would happen, didn't you? :)Dionisio
July 26, 2017
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Dioniso: Yes, it seems that I have disturbed a couple of VIPs (very important proteins) here! Next time, I will try to be more careful. :)gpuccio
July 26, 2017
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We show that systemic dysregulation of CRGs is also found in prostate cancer, including a 4-gene signature (HBEGF, HOXC13, IGFBP2, and SATB1) capable of differentiating recurrent from non-recurrent prostate cancer.
A four gene signature predictive of recurrent prostate cancer Justin Komisarof, Matthew McCall, Laurel Newman, Wiam Bshara, James L. Mohler, Carl Morrison, Hartmut Land Oncotarget, 2017, Vol. 8, (No. 2), pp: 3430-3440 www.impactjournals.com/oncotarget/
Overexpression of SATB1 Is Associated with Biologic Behavior in Human Renal Cell Carcinoma http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0097406 ------- Prognostic significance of SATB1 in gastrointestinal cancer: a meta-analysis and literature review http://www.impactjournals.com/oncotarget/index.php?journal=oncotarget&page=article&op=view&path[]=16867 ------- Decreased SATB2 expression is associated with metastasis and poor prognosis in human clear cell renal cell carcinoma https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4466939/pdf/ijcep0008-3710.pdfDionisio
July 26, 2017
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gpuccio, It seems like words are used very lightly, in such a careless way, that cause confusion. The word 'evolution' is seen in so many different contexts meaning different things. What happens after fertilization is a developmental evolution. But that's not the same as the bacteria turning antibiotic-resistant. The same disregard for exact meaning is seen with the word 'gap' as you well explained. The term 'jump' that you have used to refer to the sudden appearance of new complex functional information in proteins seems very appropriate and clear.Dionisio
July 26, 2017
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john_a_designer: I am not sure what you mean with "gap". I usually do not discuss fossils, because I have very limited understanding of that field. So, I stick to molecular functionality, referring to the usually accepted tree considered as a sequence of appearance and connection between phyla, species and so on. As I believe in common descent, I believe that species are connected by some continuity, with ample addition of new information due to design. So, I don't know what a gap should be. Of course there is no absolute continuity between species, because each species is different from another, and there is ample difference at the molecular level and informational level. That's what I call a jump: a rather sudden appearance of new information. That can be explained only by design. I would not say that these are gaps any more than I would say that there is a gap between a model of a car and the successive model. Of course, even design can be more ore less gradual, but up to know what we can see in the existing proteome seems to point to a rather discontinuous design. All another thing is the argument about gaps of knowledge. The God of the gaps, Darwin of the gaps, and so on. I just don't understand what is meant. More simply, I think that here are things we observe (facts) that we can explain rather well, ad others that we cannot explain. Science is about trying to explain what cannot yet be explained. Doe that make it a science-of-the-gaps? I think that I definitely dislike the word: "gap". I will probably agree with you if we first agree on our definition. For example, all my reasoning here is based on the assumption (well supported by facts, and almost universally accepted) that, in the tree of life vertebrates derive from the first chordates, which were not yet vertebrates: those chordates that are today represented by urochordata and cephalochordata. Can we say that there is a gap between these first chordates and vertebrates? It depends what we mean with "gap". Of course vertebrates are, just from the beginning, very different from their chordate ancestors. My OP here is exactly about that, and my previous OP has shown more than 1.7 millions of bits of new functional information in vertebrates. It's certainly a jump: two different things, the second deriving from the first, but with a lot of innovation, designed innovation. But if you want to call it a gap, I would like to ask: what would not be a gap? If two things are different, they are different, even if the second derives from the first. If we must define gap in the sense of a jump that cannot be explained by the neo-darwinian paradigm, I would say that the tree is made only of gaps, and nothing else, because IMO even a jump of a few functional AAs is a real problem for neo-darwinism, and certainly a real impossibility from 30 AAs on (about 120 bits). So, in that sense, I would call any species as being a gap in respect to all other species. But, if we get rid of the neo-darwinian paradigm, then informational jumps are not gaps, but only signatures of design innovation in a basic continuity that also reuses existing hardware and information.gpuccio
July 26, 2017
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john_a_designer @229:
But I want scientific proof not simply your belief or opinion.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I doubt you will get any scientific proof of anything from your politely dissenting interlocutors here.Dionisio
July 26, 2017
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gpuccio, Above @ 217 I wrote. “Typically (and IMO justifiably) Darwinists and other naturalistic evolutionists criticize scientifically minded creationists for invoking the God-of-the-gaps argument to explain the very real gaps in the phylogenetic tree.” Let me revise that. Because I don’t know (can’t prove) whether the gaps are real or not, instead of “very real gaps in the phylogenetic tree,” I should have written, “apparent gaps in the phylogenetic tree.” Of course, if there are apparent gaps it’s logically possible it’s because there really are gaps. It’s not only creationists and ID’ists who concede there are apparent gaps but evolutionists like Gould and Eldridge have also conceded as much. Gould for example said, “The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution.” He further conceded that Darwin’s explanation that the fossil record is imperfect “persists as the favored escape of most paleontologists from the embarrassment of a record that seems to show so little of evolution directly.” https://evolutionnews.org/2015/01/problem_5_abrup/ If you believe there are no apparent gaps in the phylogenetic tree prove to me there are not. If you can prove to me that to me then you win the argument game-set-match. But I want scientific proof not simply your belief or opinion.john_a_designer
July 26, 2017
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Off topic. A substantial proportion of the visits to this website come from Spain lately? Check this out: http://www.ranksays.com/uncommondescent.comDionisio
July 26, 2017
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gpuccio @223:
Exactly. that’s the essence of my verbose intervention at #222
Well, the problem is that some interlocutors don't like to read verbose explanations, no matter how clear those explanations are. Maybe reading comprehension issues? Maybe that's why they like the reductionist bottom-up reverse engineering approach to research, which keeps the scientists constantly surprised by unexpected things? :)Dionisio
July 26, 2017
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SATB1 & SATB2 related papers: Referenced in the OP:
Here is a very brief recent bibliography:
Essential Roles of SATB1 in Specifying T Lymphocyte Subsets SATB1 overexpression correlates with gastrointestinal neoplasms invasion and metastasis: a meta-analysis for Chinese population SATB1-mediated Functional Packaging of Chromatin into Loops
Here is a brief recent bibliography about SATB2:
Mutual regulation between Satb2 and Fezf2 promotes subcerebral projection neuron identity in the developing cerebral cortex SATB1 and SATB2 play opposing roles in c-Myc expression and progression of colorectal cancer
Genes & Development 2009
Satb1 and Satb2 regulate embryonic stem cell differentiation and Nanog expression http://genesdev.cshlp.org/content/23/22/2625
AJMG 2016:
SATB2-associated syndrome: Mechanisms, phenotype, and practical recommendations http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajmg.a.38022/full
eLIFE 2016:
Satb2 determines miRNA expression and long-term memory in the adult central nervous system https://elifesciences.org/articles/17361
Development 2017:
The chromatin modifier Satb1 regulates cell fate through Fgf signalling in the early mouse embryo http://dev.biologists.org/content/144/8/1450
Springer 2017:
Satb2 Ablation Impairs Hippocampus-Based Long-Term Spatial Memory and Short-Term Working Memory and Immediate Early Genes (IEGs)-Mediated Hippocampal Synaptic Plasticity https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12035-017-0531-5
Dionisio
July 26, 2017
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Mung: You can jump as a sport, not only to overcome gaps! :)gpuccio
July 26, 2017
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Again, no gaps at all, of any kind, here.
If there are no gaps, there is no reason for any jumps. :)Mung
July 26, 2017
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Dionisio: "Isn’t the intelligent design (ID) paradigm based on what is known instead of the unknown?" Exactly. that's the essence of my verbose intervention at #222. :)gpuccio
July 26, 2017
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john_a_designer: As I see things, there is no gap at all. I never speak of gaps. I speak of information jumps. An information jump is not a gap. It is an observed fact. So, we observe, or more precisely infer at the best of our understanding of natural history (it's not easy to observe directly things that happened millions of years ago), that proteins SATB1 and SATB2, as they appeared in vertebrates, exhibit a new specific configuration, conserved thereafter, which implies 1300+ bits of conserved, therefore most certainly functional, information, and 731 conserved identities. This is the fact. Not a gap. A fact. The simple question is: does such a fact need some explanation, or is it something that we routinely observe under known laws? The answer is simple: the fact needs some explanation, because it is not something that we routinely observe under known laws. Indeed, it is something that we never observe under known laws. Maybe chance and necessity are not causes. But laws are causal patterns. I would say that chance and necessity are some model, made by us, of how laws work. The working of one single well defined law, regularly confirmed by facts, is what we call necessity. A summary way of describing mathematically, with limited but definite efficacy, how a system where many different laws and variables are at stake evolves is what we call chance. So, we need an explanation for functional information, including the 1300+ bits of it observed in our two proteins at the appearance of vertebrates, because he laws we know, both if described in terms of necessity or in terms of chance, cannot explain that kind of observed fact. Again, no gaps at all, of any kind, here. Moreover, I suppose that even our kind interlocutors will probably agree that such a kind of observed fact needs some explanation. So much so, that they have a complex specific model to "explain" it, what they call the neo-darwinian theory. Again, it's not a problem of gaps: the only legitimate question is: does that model explain the observed fact? For a lot of reasons that I have tried to summarize, in part, in my verbose interventions here, my answer is, strongly, No! Now, we could certainly stop here and say that we have no scientific explanation at all for that fact. After all, a mystery is better than a wrong explanation, science. I can agree, but there is an important aspect of the question that must be considered. The fact is that we do observe abundant new functional information under known laws: in artifacts. Doe that mean that artifacts need divine intervention? Are they some God of the gap argument? Not at all. Artifacts are facts: they can be observed, and most of them can be directly observed today (a watch, a car, a computer, and so on). They do not need divine intervention. And yet they exhibit tons of original functional information. How can that be? The answer is simple enough: they just need human intervention. But it does not stop there. Why are humans capable of doing something that known laws, alone, cannot do? A little reasoning can easily bring us to the credible theory that some specific human experiences, in particular the ability to have the conscious experiences of understanding and purpose, allow humans to design objects with such huge content in functional information. So, a reasonable theory to explain the similar pattern of functional information in biological beings is: some agent capable of understanding and purpose designed them. Again, no gaps at all: only simple scientific reasoning. Again, no divine intervention invoked. The problem arises after, as soon as we ask ourselves: OK, but who is, or are, these agents capable of understanding and purpose who supposedly designed biological beings? Humans are not really feasible for that. So, I think that everyone can choose, at that point, and say: a) I cannot believe that other agents may exist who are capable of understanding and purpose, and who were in a condition of being able to design biological beings. However, the problem of biological information remains an observed fact without any reasonable explanation, indeed a mystery. I have faith that some day we can find some explanation for it, without having to recur to designers. b) I can believe that other agents may exist who are capable of understanding and purpose, and who were in a condition of being able to design biological beings. Some form of divine intervention is for me a possible, but not necessarily the only, alternative. However, I do believe that the problem of functional information will never be explained without recurring to some form of design, and therefore of conscious intervention. Of course, I am always ready to consider any credible explanation of the non design type, if and when it will be provided. OK, I believe that both positions can be respected. I respect a), even if my convinced position is b). What is not so respectable is the obstinacy in considering scientifically sound an explanation (the neo-darwinian paradigm) which can already be considered false. This is how I see things. As everybody can see, there is no space for the concept of "gaps" in this reasoning, unless we want to consider a "gap" any observed fact that needs explanation and that we cannot yet explain. If so, not only science, but I would say the whole human cognition, is built upon gaps.gpuccio
July 26, 2017
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The problem is that neither chance nor necessity are causes. They may be descriptive of the way certain kinds of causes appear to operate but they are not in and of themselves causes. So to just invoke “chance” or “necessity” is to make a vague appeal to something vague and metaphysical. Is empirical science about invoking vague and metaphysical explanations?john_a_designer
July 26, 2017
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GPuccio: In the end, I would say that all our interlocutors from the other side “refuse to understand what ID is saying, especially when it is obvious that ID is right. They occasionally become more interested, when they believe that they have found some obvious error in ID thinking.
Indeed. I have never witnessed a materialist winning a non-trivial argument.
Upright BiPed: The materialist says that life is the product of unguided chance and necessity.
Exactly right. If life would be the product of necessity only, then intelligent design would still be the best explanation — after all who set the whole thing up? "Unguided chance" is what the materialist needs to get rid of design. However, if life is the product of unguided chance, then the same goes for materialist conjecture about unguided chance. And, unfortunately for the materialist, we have no reason to trust any conjecture produced by unguided chance ...Origenes
July 26, 2017
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Isn't the intelligent design (ID) paradigm based on what is known instead of the unknown? Then why do some folks like to associate ID with knowledge gaps? Where is such association taken from? The knowledge gaps in biology just raise questions that must be answered by discoveries made through scientific research, thus shedding more light on the elaborate cellular and molecular choreographies of complex functionally specified information orchestrated within the biological systems. Every major discovery seems to confirm the ID paradigm. However, as some outstanding scientific questions get answered, new ones are raised, setting new goals for the scientists to pursue in future research.Dionisio
July 26, 2017
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The materialist says that life is the product of unguided chance and necessity. The ID proponent says that life is the product of design; it is the most well-supported explanation. The materialist defends his position by saying that the ID proponent is merely filling gaps in our knowledge with a completely unnecessary entity. The ID proponent defends his position by recalling the evidence from IC, genetics, semiosis, etc. The distinction between these two positions is that one is falsifiable, while the other is not.Upright BiPed
July 25, 2017
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Typically (and IMO justifiably) Darwinists and other naturalistic evolutionists criticize scientifically minded creationists for invoking the God-of-the-gaps argument to explain the very real gaps in the phylogenetic tree. It is indeed fallacious for creationists to argue that the gaps are strong or overwhelming evidence of supernatural intervention. However, that doesn’t eliminate a supernatural cause as a possible explanation. The honest answer is at present is that we don’t know. Furthermore, no one can honestly eliminate the possibility that there could someday be a scientific explanation. I once asked a creationist friend exactly what God created in the gaps and how he created it. He confessed to me that he didn’t know. However, a Darwin-of-the-gaps argument is just as fallacious. Unless you can somehow empirically describe step-by-step-by-step how natural selection (NS + RV) was able to bridge the gaps you don’t know. And you are certainly can’t claim that NS + RV is the only mechanism or that it is a ubiquitous explanation. It is not a falsifiable scientific explanation to argue that because NS + RV could explain common descent that it does. Of course, philosophically that’s a possibility but a philosophical explanation is not a scientific explanation.john_a_designer
July 25, 2017
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ET: I agree that he was obstinate. However, I think that he had some moderately honest and dependable obstinacy. In the end, I would say that all our interlocutors from the other side "refuse to understand what ID is saying, especially when it is obvious that ID is right. They occasionally become more interested, when they believe that they have found some obvious error in ID thinking. Nobody from the other side really wants to "understand what ID is saying" (except maybe some very rare exceptions). But they do that with different personal styles. Some are simply arrogant, others condescending, others obstinate, others passionate, others patient, others simply obtuse or in bad faith. Some I have learned to respect, others to tolerate. Many, I simply try to ignore (as Mung says).gpuccio
July 25, 2017
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