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Interesting proteins: DNA-binding proteins SATB1 and SATB2

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With this OP, I am starting a series (I hope) of articles whose purpose is to present interesting proteins which can be of specific relevance to ID theory, for their functional context and evolutionary history.

DNA-binding protein SATB1

SATB1 (accession number Q01826) is a very intriguing molecule. Let’s start with some information we can find at Uniprot, a fundamental protein database, about what is known of its function (in the human form):

Crucial silencing factor contributing to the initiation of X inactivation mediated by Xist RNA that occurs during embryogenesis and in lymphoma

And:

Transcriptional repressor controlling nuclear and viral gene expression in a phosphorylated and acetylated status-dependent manner, by binding to matrix attachment regions (MARs) of DNA and inducing a local chromatin-loop remodeling. Acts as a docking site for several chromatin remodeling enzymes

IOWs, it is an important regulatory protein involved in many different, and not necessarily well understood, processes, which binds to DNA and in involved in chromatin remodeling.

It is also involved in hematopoiesis (especially in T cell development), and has important roles in the biology of some tumors:

Modulates genes that are essential in the maturation of the immune T-cell CD8SP from thymocytes. Required for the switching of fetal globin species, and beta- and gamma-globin genes regulation during erythroid differentiation. Plays a role in chromatin organization and nuclear architecture during apoptosis.

Reprograms chromatin organization and the transcription profiles of breast tumors to promote growth and metastasis.

Keywords for molecular function: Chromatin regulatorDNA-bindingRepressor

Now, some information about the protein itself. I will relate, again, to the human form of the protein:

Length: 763 AAs. It’s a rather big protein, like many important regulatory molecules.

Its subcellular location is in the nucleus.

It is a multi-domain protein, with at least 5 detectable domains and many DNA binding sites.

Evolutionary history of SATB1

Now, let’s see some features of the evolutionary history of this protein in the course of metazoa evolution.

I will use here the same tools that I have developed and presented in my previous OP:

The amazing level of engineering in the transition to the vertebrate proteome: a global analysis

So, I invite all those who are interested in the technical details to refer to that OP.

Here is a graph of the levels of homology to the human protein detectable in other metazoan groups, expressed as mean bitscore per aminoacid site:

 

Fig. 1: Evolutionary history of SATB1 by human-conserved functional information

 

The green line represents the evolutionary history of our protein, while the red dotted line is the reference mean line for the groups considered, as already presented in my previous post quoted above (Fig. 2).

As everyone can see, this specific protein has a very sudden gain in human-conserved information with the transition from pre-vertebrates to vertebrates. So, it represents a very good example of the information jump that I have tried to quantify globally in my previous post.

Here, the jump is of almost 1.5 bits per aminoacid site. What does that mean?

Let’s remember that the protein is 763 AA long. Therefore, an increase of information of 1.5 bits per aminoacid corresponds to more than 1000 bits of information. To be precise, the jump from the best pre-vertebrate hit to the best hit in cartilaginous fish is:

1049 bits

But let’s see more in detail how the jump happens.

I will show here in detail some results of protein blasts. All of them have been obtained using the Blastp software at the NCBI site:

https://blast.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Blast.cgi?PROGRAM=blastp&PAGE_TYPE=BlastSearch&LINK_LOC=blasthome

with default settings.

Here is the result of blasting the human protein against all known protein sequences except for vertebrate sequences:

Fig. 2: Results of blasting human SATB1 against all non vertebrate protein sequences

 

As can be seen, we find only low homologies in non vertebrates, and they are essentially restricted to a small part of the molecule, that correspond to the first two domains in the protein, or just to the first domain. The image shows clearly that all the rest of the sequence has no detectable significant homologies in non vertebrates (except for a couple of very low homologies for the third domain).

The best hit in non vertebrates is 154 bits with Parasteatoda tepidariorum, a spider. Here it is:

Fig. 3: The best hit in non vertebrates (with a spider)

The upper line (Query) is the human sequence. The bottom line (Sbjct) is the aligned sequence of the spider. In the middle line, letters are identities, “+” characters are similarities (substitutions which are frequently observed in proteins, and are probably quasi-neutral), and empty spaces are less frequent substitutions, those that are more likely to affect protein structure and function if they happen at a functionally important aminoacid site.

The alignment here is absolutely restricted to AAs 71 – 245 (the first two domains), and involves only 177 AAs. Of these, only 78 (44%) are identities and 111 (62%) are positives (identities + similarities). So, in the whole protein we have only 78 identities out of 763 (10.2%).

The spider protein is labeled as “uncharacterized protein”, and that is the case in most of the other non vertebrate hits.

All the other non vertebrate hits, with a couple of exceptions, are well below 100 bits, most of them between 70 and 86 bits.

IOWs, the protein as we know it in vertebrates essentially does not exist in non vertebrates.

Even non vertebrate deuterostomia, which should be the nearest precursors of the first vertebrates, have extremely low homology bitscores with the human protein:

Saccoglossus kowalevskii (hemichordates):  87 bits

Branchiostoma floridae (cephalochordate): 67 bits

The information jump in vertebrates

Now, what happens with the first vertebrates?

The oldest split in vertebrates is the one between cartilaginous fish and bony fish (from which the human lineage derives). Therefore, homologies that are conserved between cartilaginous fish and humans had reasonably to be already present in the Last Common Ancestor of Vertebrates, before the split between cartilaginous fish and bony fish, and have been conserved for about 420 million years.

So, let’s see the best hit between the human protein and cartilaginous fish. It is with Rhincodon typus (whale shark). Here it is:

 

Fig. 4: The best hit of human SATB1 in cartilaginous fish (with the whale shark)

 

Here, the alignment involves practically the whole molecule (756 AAs), and we have 1203 bits of homology, 603 identities (79%), 659 positives (86%).

IOWs, the two molecules are almost identical. And the homology is extremely high not only in the domain parts, but also in the rest of the protein sequence.

Now, the evolutionary time between pre-vertebrates and the first split in vertebrates is certainly rather small, a few million years, or at most 20 – 30 million years. Not a big chronological window at all, in evolutionary terms.

However, in that window, this protein appears almost complete. 603 aminoacids are already those that will remain up to the human form of the protein, and only 78 of them were detectable in the best hit before vertebrate appearance.

1049 bits of new, original functional information. In such a short evolutionary window.

Functionality

Why functional? Because those 603 aminoacid have remained the same thorugh more than 400 million years of evolution. They have evaded neutral or quasi neutral variation, that would have certainly completely transformed the sequence in such a big evolutionary time, if those aminoacid sites were not under extreme functional constraint and purifying (negative) selection.

Now, I say that this fact cannot in any way be explained by any neo-darwinian model. Absolutely not.

Moreover, there is absolutely no evidence in the available proteome of any intermediate form, of any gradual development of the functional sequence that will be conserved up to humans (except, of course, for the 50 – 78 AAs which are already detectable in the first two domains in many pre -vertebrates).

By the way, Callorhincus milii, the Elephant shark, has almost identical values of homology:

1184 bits, 599 identities, 654 positives

But, how important is this protein?

In the ExAC database, a database of variations in the human genome, missense mutations are 110 out of 260.3 expected, with a z score of 4.56, an extremely high measure of functional constraint.

The recent medical literature has a lot of articles about the important role of SATB1 at least in two big fields:

  • T cell development
  • Tumor development (many different kinds of tumors)

If we want to sum up in a few words what is known, we could say that SATB1 is considered a master regulator, essentially a complex transcription repressor, involved mainly (but not only) in the development of the immune system, in particular T cells. A disregulation of this protein is linked to many aspects of tumor invasivity (especially metastases). The protein seems to act, among other possibilities, as a global organizer of chromatin states.

Here is a very brief recent bibliography:

Essential Roles of SATB1 in Specifying T Lymphocyte Subsets

SATB1 overexpression correlates with gastrointestinal neoplasms invasion and metastasis: a meta-analysis for Chinese population

SATB1-mediated Functional Packaging of Chromatin into Loops

DNA-binding protein SATB2

But there is more. There is another protein which is very similar to SATB1. It is called DNA-binding protein SATB2 (accession number Q9UPW6).

Its length is very similar to SATB1: 733 AAs.

Uniprot describes its function as follows:

Binds to DNA, at nuclear matrix- or scaffold-associated regions. Thought to recognize the sugar-phosphate structure of double-stranded DNA. Transcription factor controlling nuclear gene expression, by binding to matrix attachment regions (MARs) of DNA and inducing a local chromatin-loop remodeling. Acts as a docking site for several chromatin remodeling enzymes

Which is very similar to SATB1. But now come the differences. While SATB1 is implied prevalently in T cell development and tumor development, SATB2 is:

Required for the initiation of the upper-layer neurons (UL1) specific genetic program and for the inactivation of deep-layer neurons (DL) and UL2 specific genes, probably by modulating BCL11B expression. Repressor of Ctip2 and regulatory determinant of corticocortical connections in the developing cerebral cortex. May play an important role in palate formation. Acts as a molecular node in a transcriptional network regulating skeletal development and osteoblast differentiation

So, similar proteins with rather different specificities. While SATB1 is mainly connexted to adaptive immunity (T cell development), SATB2 seems to be more linked to neuronal development. Like SATB1, it is involved in cancer development, although usually in different types of cancer.

Here is a brief recent bibliography about SATB2:

Mutual regulation between Satb2 and Fezf2 promotes subcerebral projection neuron identity in the developing cerebral cortex

SATB1 and SATB2 play opposing roles in c-Myc expression and progression of colorectal cancer

However, how similar is SATB2 to SATB1 in terms of sequence homology?

Here is a direct blast of the two human molecules:

 

Fig. 5: Blast of human SATB1 vs human SATB2:

 

OK, they are very similar, but…  only 460 identities, 550 positives, 854 bits. IOWs, these two human proteins are similar, but not so similar as the two sequences of SATB1 in the shark and in humans.

Now, here is the evolutionary history of SATB2:

 

Fig. 6: Evolutionary history of SATB2 by human-conserved functional information

 

As everyone can see, it is almost identical to the evolutionary history of SATB1. To see it even better, Fig. 7 shows the two evolutionary histories together (the green line is SATB1, the brown line is SATB2):

 

Fig. 7: Evolutionary history of SATB1 and SATB2 by human-conserved functional information

 

In particular, pre-vertebrate history and the jump in cartilaginous fish are practically identical. And yet these are two different molecules, as we have seen, with different specificities and about one third of difference in sequence.

Now, let’s blast human SATB2 against cartilaginous fish. Again the best hit is with the whale shark:

 

Fig. 8: The best hit of human SATB2 in cartilaginous fish (with the whale shark)

 

And the numbers are very similar, incredibly similar I would say, to those we found for SATB1:

1197 bits, 592 identities, 662 positives.

But what if we blast SATB1 of the whale shark against SATB2 of the whale shark?

Here are the results:

 

Fig. 9: Blast of whale shark SATB1 vs whale shark SATB2:

Now, please, compare the numbers we got here with those from the similar blast between the two proteins in humans:

SATB1 human vs SATB2 human:  460 identities, 550 positives, 854 bits

SATB1 shark vs SATB2 shark:      468 identities, 556 positives, 856 bits

Almost exactly the same numbers! Wow!

What does that mean?

It means that this system of two similar proteins with different function arises in vertebrates as a whole system, already complete, with the two components already differentiated, and is conserved almost identical up to humans. Indeed, SATB1 and SATB2 have the same degree of homology both in sharks and in humans, and the two SATB1 proteins in shark and humans, as well as the two SATB2 proteins in shark and humans, have greater similarity, after more than 400 million years of divergence, than SATB1 and SATB2 show when compared, both in sharks and in humans.

Would you describe that as sudden appearance of huge amounts of functional information, followed by an extremely long stasis? I certainly would!

The following table sums up these results:

Sequence 1 Sequence 2 Bitscore
SATB1 Human SATB2 Human 854
SATB1 Shark SATB2 Shark 856
SATB1 Human SATB1 Shark 1203
SATB2 Human SATB2 Shark 1197

IOWs, the whole system appeared practically as it is today, before the split of cartilaginous fish and bony fish, and has retained its essential form up to now.

So, the total amount of new functional information implied by the whole system of these two proteins is about 1545 bits (considering 855 bits of common information, and 345 bits x 2 of specific information in each molecule).

An amazing amount, for a system of just two molecules, considering that 500 bits is Dembski’s Universal Probability Bound!

Let’s remember that in my previous post, quoted above, I showed that the informational jump from pre-vertebrates to vertebrates is more than 1.7 million bits. That’s a very big number, but big numbers sometimes are not easily digested. So, I believe that seeing that just two important molecules can contribute for almost 1500 bits can help us understand what we are really seeing here.

Moreover, it’s certainly not a case that those two molecules seem to be fundamental in two very particular fields:

a) The adaptive immune system

b) The nervous system

if we consider that those are exactly the two most relevant developments in vertebrates.

And, as a final note, please consider that these are very complex master regulators, which interact with tens of other complex proteins to effect their functions. The whole system is certainly much more irreducibly complex than we can imagine.

But still, just the analysis of these two sister proteins is more than enough to demonstrate that the neo Darwinian paradigm is completely inappropriate to explain what we can see in the proteome and in its natural history. And this is only one example among thousands.

So, I want to conclude repeating again this strong and very convinced statement:

The observed facts described here cannot in any way be explained by any neo-darwinian model. Absolutely not. They are extremely strong evidence for a design inference.

Comments
Dionisio: "Isn’t it ironic that the whining politely dissenting interlocutors don’t join this discussion to present their strong arguments?" This is a free world. "Their absence is suspicious, isn’t it?" This is a free world. "Don’t they like serious scientific discussions?" This is a free world. "Can it get more serious and scientific than this?" It certainly can. But I am satisfied of the scientific context in my OPs. "Right now their nonsense comments are seen in other threads." It is a free world. I am not joking: the same freedom that allows me to post my ideas here, certainly allows them not to comment on my ideas. OK, maybe I feel a little lonely at times, but I certainly do appreciate our quiet, intimate conversations here! :)gpuccio
July 18, 2017
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Dionisio: "So how is this explained in the biology textbooks?" I don't think it is explained. "Do they say it happened through the so called co-option or something like that?" I can think of a few different imaginative stories they could use, if asked. :) "Do they leave it as a temporary knowledge gap to be filled later when technology improves and science can get better information on how things could happen?" More likely, it's no problem at all, for them. "Do they ignore it or skip over it as if nothing important happened?" Something like that, I suppose. Of course, I am not speaking of the specific issue that I have raised here in my OP about these two specific proteins, an issue of which only the lucky readers of this thread are probably aware! :) But of all the thousands of similar issues that can be found in the proteome, if one really wants to look at them.gpuccio
July 18, 2017
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Dionisio: By the way, SATB2 is on chromosome 2, at location 2q33.1, and it includes 16 exons.gpuccio
July 18, 2017
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Dionisio: "This is serious research you have presented here, as well as in the previous two OPs on related subject. I commend you for this effort. Thanks." Thanks to you. :)
When you BLAST the proteins SATB1 and SATB2 and analyze them, giving numbers that indicate relative positions within the proteins and their domains, what does that tell us about the actual DNA genetic information that was expressed into the given proteins?
If the aminoacid sequence is conserved through hundred of millions of years, it means that it is under strong functional constraint. And if the aminoacid sequence is conserved in the protein, that means that the nucleotide sequence is conserved too in the corresponding gene, except for possible synonymous mutations.
Where should one look to get a very simplified description of the DNA segments (containing introns + exons) that are transcribed into the corresponding mRNA molecules that are later translated by the ribosome machinery into the proteins SATB1 and SATB2? Basically, where in the DNA are the codons taken from? Is there an easy to understand map showing their relative locations within the DNA (i.e. chromosome number + relative position within the given chromosome)?
There are many ways to get that information. The simplest way is probably the following: a) Go to the Uniprot page: http://www.uniprot.org/ b) Search SATB1 c) In the SATB1 page, scroll down till you find the Sequences section. After the protein sequence itself, there are other subsections. One of them is "Genome annotation databases". Click on the link corresponding to the GeneID number d) You should be brought the the SATB1 gene page at NCBI. Here you can see that the SATB1 gene is located in chromosome 3, at the location 3p24.3, and that it includes 17 exons. e) Now, click on the link "Genome data viewer". If you are lucky (at this precise moment it does not work for me! :) ) you should be brought to a detailed graphical view of the pertinent genome segment. f) Another alternative (which at present is working) is to click on the link "Map viewer", which bring you at a different form of graphic representations, where you can see the exons and the transcripts. I hope that helps.gpuccio
July 18, 2017
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Dionisio: "Have you seen a similar research published out there?" Not that I am aware of. "Have you considered publishing your conclusions along with this enormous amount of interesting data your research effort has produced? "Have you contacted a journal?" No. ""Maybe remove any ID reference so that it looks more politically correct thus increasing the odds of being accepted in a peer-reviewed journal? Also add a couple of “surprisingly” and “unexpectedly” to make it appear like a neo-Darwinian archaic pseudoscientific nonsense. Then it might be accepted right away. At least it should pass the peer reviews, because it will sound like music to their ears."" Sure. That could probably work! :)gpuccio
July 18, 2017
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Isn't it ironic that the whining politely dissenting interlocutors don't join this discussion to present their strong arguments? Their absence is suspicious, isn't it? Don't they like serious scientific discussions? Can it get more serious and scientific than this? Right now their nonsense comments are seen in other threads.Dionisio
July 18, 2017
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RodW should appear with his challenging comments anytime, that's why I wanted to get my questions in first. :)Dionisio
July 18, 2017
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gpuccio, You wrote this:
Evolutionary history of SATB1 by human-conserved functional information the jump from the best pre-vertebrate hit to the best hit in cartilaginous fish is: 1049 bits the protein as we know it in vertebrates essentially does not exist in non vertebrates. The information jump in vertebrates Now, the evolutionary time between pre-vertebrates and the first split in vertebrates is certainly rather small, a few million years, or at most 20 – 30 million years. Not a big chronological window at all, in evolutionary terms. However, in that window, this protein appears almost complete. 603 aminoacids are already those that will remain up to the human form of the protein, and only 78 of them were detectable in the best hit before vertebrate appearance. 1049 bits of new, original functional information. In such a short evolutionary window. this fact cannot in any way be explained by any neo-darwinian model.
gpuccio, you also wrote this:
Evolutionary history of SATB1 and SATB2 by human-conserved functional information this system of two similar proteins with different function arises in vertebrates as a whole system, already complete, with the two components already differentiated, and is conserved almost identical up to humans. Would you describe that as sudden appearance of huge amounts of functional information, followed by an extremely long stasis? I certainly would! the whole system appeared practically as it is today, before the split of cartilaginous fish and bony fish, and has retained its essential form up to now. the total amount of new functional information implied by the whole system of these two proteins is about 1545 bits the informational jump from pre-vertebrates to vertebrates is more than 1.7 million bits. The observed facts described here cannot in any way be explained by any neo-darwinian model. Absolutely not. They are extremely strong evidence for a design inference.
So how is this explained in the biology textbooks? Do they say it happened through the so called co-option or something like that? Do they leave it as a temporary knowledge gap to be filled later when technology improves and science can get better information on how things could happen? Do they ignore it or skip over it as if nothing important happened?Dionisio
July 18, 2017
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gpuccio, This is serious research you have presented here, as well as in the previous two OPs on related subject. I commend you for this effort. Thanks. Since this discussion is about the appearance of new information in the proteins SATB1 and SATB2, it may help to understand well how the information gets to SATB1 and SATB2 to begin with. Perhaps there are some readers who find this discussion interesting, but feel lost regarding certain basic technical concepts that are assumed as prerequisites for this discussion. I've asked this before, but after going through your answers, I still need help to understand a few basic concepts. When you BLAST the proteins SATB1 and SATB2 and analyze them, giving numbers that indicate relative positions within the proteins and their domains, what does that tell us about the actual DNA genetic information that was expressed into the given proteins? Where should one look to get a very simplified description of the DNA segments (containing introns + exons) that are transcribed into the corresponding mRNA molecules that are later translated by the ribosome machinery into the proteins SATB1 and SATB2? Basically, where in the DNA are the codons taken from? Is there an easy to understand map showing their relative locations within the DNA (i.e. chromosome number + relative position within the given chromosome)? You pointed to the databases where that is shown, but my ignorance level does not let me get the simplified picture of this basic sequential step-by-step process that is according to the central dogma of biology: DNA makes RNA makes Protein. As you pointed out before, some polymorphism might be included too. Would you find some time to write an OP explaining this for SATB1 and SATB2? It could be considered a complement material to this current thread. Please, correct any misconception or misrepresentation in this comment. Thank you.Dionisio
July 17, 2017
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gpuccio,
"The only possible explanation is that this segment, which is largely interdomain, is highly specific for the two different functionalities of SATB1 and SATB2"
Hmm... Interesting observation.
It also strongly supports the importance of specific interdomain sequences.
More food for thoughts. Thanks. Let's see what RodW has to say on this. Maybe someone else out there has a counter-argument? I have a few questions: Have you seen a similar research published out there? Have you considered publishing your conclusions along with this enormous amount of interesting data your research effort has produced? Have you contacted a journal? I'm having in mind your latest 3 OPs combined, though it might be too long for one single article. Maybe remove any ID reference so that it looks more politically correct thus increasing the odds of being accepted in a peer-reviewed journal? Also add a couple of "surprisingly" and "unexpectedly" to make it appear like a neo-Darwinian archaic pseudoscientific nonsense. Then it might be accepted right away. At least it should pass the peer reviews, because it will sound like music to their ears. :)Dionisio
July 17, 2017
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Dionisio, RodW and whoever may be interested: I would like to add a few words here to make more clear my point about the specificity of SATB1 vs SATB2. If we look at the alignment of the two human proteins, in Fig. 5, we can choose a segment where the homology is low. For example, I have taken the segment including AAs 242-312 of SATB1 (the one starting with HFKKT), which are aligned to the segment including AAs 228 - 299 of SATB2 (the one starting with KYKKI). That includes the final part of the second domain, and an interdomain sequence. Well, even if this part of the two molecules still shows some significant homology, it is definitely lower than the average homology of the two proteins as a whole. Blasting those two segments only, the result is: Bitscore: 24.6 bits Expect: 4e-04 Identities: 27/74(36%) Positives: 35/74(47%) OK, the homology is significant, even for this short tract, but it is rather low. But, if we blast the same SATB1 segment against the whale shark SATB1, like in Fig. 4, we get: Bitscore: 100 bits Expect: 4e-26 Identities: 51/75(68%) Positives: 57/75(76%) And if we blast the corresponding segment of SATB2 against the whale skark SATB2, like in Fig. 8, we get, similarly: Bitscore: 104 bits Expect: 1e-27 Identities: 53/87(61%) Positives: 64/87(73%) The Expect value, which is a measure of the probability of finding such a homology by chance, goes down of about 22 orders of magnitude (4e-26, 1e-27) in the direct confrontation of the two SATB1 or the two SATB2 segments, while it is only of the order of 10e-4 if we confront SATB1 with SATB2 (always for this short segment). The only possible explanation is that this segment, which is largely interdomain, is highly specific for the two different functionalities of SATB1 and SATB2: it is tailored in each of the two molecules for specific functional reasons, and it retains only low basic homology when we compare the two different sister molecules in humans (or even in sharks, as can be seen in Fig.9). This reasoning is the same that I have given in the OP, but I thought that perhaps, by focusing on one short segment where the difference between SATB1 and SATB2 is apparent, the argument could be understood better. It also strongly supports the importance of specific interdomain sequences.gpuccio
July 17, 2017
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J-Mac, Here's Mashina Vremeny - Ty ili ya: https://www.youtube.com/embed/qXvpGZvL8B8 If you want, I can translate it for you. I heard them live in Sochi by the Black Sea in the mid '70s! IL TEMPO VOLA! That's it. Enough off topic digressions. Let's get back to discuss the interesting topic of complex functionally specified information "somehow" added to proteins. This week RodW should come back to present his challenging ideas to gpuccio. I'm sure our beloved Italian doctor can sweep and mop the floor with any "challenging" ideas the politely dissenting interlocutors may present to him here. But still it must be interesting to watch such a debate. Get ready, it may start tomorrow. :)Dionisio
July 16, 2017
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J-Mac, Off-topic comment regarding your mentioning an OT book. Here's a late 20th century Spanish secular version of Ecclesiastes:
Lo tengo todo, completamente todo; mil amigos y amores y el aplauso en la noche. Lo tengo todo, completamente todo; voy por la vida rodeado de gente que siento mia. Voy de abrazo en abrazo, de beso en risa, me dan la mano, cuando es precisa; la loca suerte besa mi frente por donde voy. Pero cuando amanece, y me quedo solo, siento en el fondo un mar vacío, un seco río, que grita y grita que sólo soy un hombre solo, un hombre solo, un hombre solo.
Basically someone who tried practically everything under the sun but got no satisfaction at the end of the day. What else is new? There were other famous secular versions of that OT book in the late 20th century: The Eagles - Hotel California Rolling Stones - Satisfaction Pink Floyd - Time Led Zeppelin - Stairway to Heaven And not so famous: Mashina Vremeny - ty ili ya Czerwone Gitary - Nie spoczniemy Basically a lost world desperately searching for the true meaning of life to no avail.Dionisio
July 16, 2017
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J-Mac: "Shakespeare rocks!" He is the best! :)gpuccio
July 16, 2017
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gpuccio, "I really believe that there is nothing really new under the sun, because in the end we all borrow, in some way, from God’s mind, but it is also true that, as independent agents, we are creative, and can use ideas in a personal, original way. So, things can be new and old at the same time. Right on! I couldn't agree more especially when we consider the free will/consciousness connection. You are so right about the mind of God, because although we can and should be creative and hopefully become wiser, we will never surpass the mind or wisdom of God... Shakespeare rocks! :-)J-Mac
July 16, 2017
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Dionisio: "The more we know, more is there for us to learn." Absolutely true!gpuccio
July 16, 2017
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gpuccio: Yes, your comment @43 helps me to understand how to approach the given topic. Thank you for the information. As per your suggestion, I'll try to keep an eye on papers covering that topic, so we can share them here. Regarding your comment @44, yes, I agree that's “polymorphism” instead of “pleiotropism”. Thank you for the correction. The more we know, more is there for us to learn.Dionisio
July 16, 2017
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john_a_designer at #45: I can agree wholeheartedly with what you say here! I have been in similar contexts many times. And, being one of the IDists who explicitly accept CD, I must say that I have been in similar contextx with some of our friends here, too! :) However, I would like to say that some of our interlocutors are different. Not in the sense that they can be convinced of the value of at least some of our ideas: that's probably too much to be expected, after all these people have a dogmatic commitment to their worldview, and it is very unlikely that they can accept any idea that, in their opinion, can really challenge that world-view. In the end, I must say that I have never seen any interlocutor accept even a tiny part of the obvious truths in ID thought. If they did, there would be no limit to what could happen... :) But some of them are good interlocutors, indeed. Not many, unfortunately, but some really are. A good interlocutor, IMO, must have at least the following two qualities: 1) He must be intelligent, and precise in the discussion, and pertinent to what is being discussed. IOWs, he must not play tricks (or at least, not so often! :) ) 2) He must be honestly interested in an intellectual confrontation. IOWs, he must like ideas, and interesting arguments, not for their sake, but because of some inherent respect for truth and reality. OK, have we met interlocutors who, more or less, not necessarily perfectly, met those requirements? I believe we have. Not many, not often, but one once in while can be enough. I have often praised some of them here. I don't want to make names here, because I have forgotten many of them. I will only quote two "classics", just to give an idea: Mark Frank, for his constant honesty Zachriel, because he is often brilliant But I had very deep and satisfying discussions with many others, especially in the past. It is rather obvious that those commenters are somewhat lacking here, at present. Except for Bob O'H, always serious, but rather shy, I have not seen much recently (if we don't want to consider the generous, but rather idiosyncratic interventions of rvb8). I don't know the reasons, maybe they were banned, or they are simply tired of the discussion. Whatever the reason, it's a pity that we don't have more like them.gpuccio
July 16, 2017
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J-Mac: Of course Ecclesiastes meant a different thing. I really believe that there is nothing really new under the sun, because in the end we all borrow, in some way, from God's mind, but it is also true that, as independent agents, we are creative, and can use ideas in a personal, original way. So, things can be new and old at the same time. For the nth time, I feel compelled to quote my favourite Shakespeare's sonnet: Why is my verse so barren of new pride, So far from variation or quick change? Why with the time do I not glance aside To new-found methods, and to compounds strange? Why write I still all one, ever the same, And keep invention in a noted weed, That every word doth almost tell my name, Showing their birth, and where they did proceed? O know, sweet love, I always write of you, And you and love are still my argument, So all my best is dressing old words new, Spending again what is already spent: For as the sun is daily new and old, So is my love still telling what is told. (emphasis mine! :) ) I think this could be one of the meanings of Ecclesiastes. However, it's a concept that I deeply feel to be true. Ah, if only more people were able to "tell what is told" in the absolutely original and transcendent way Shakespeare did!gpuccio
July 16, 2017
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I think that Ecclesiastes 1:9 has to be looked at in the context of what Solomon was writing about-the lack of purpose and meaning of life without God, that he came to realize after exploring the countless pursuits... New things were being invented and built during his life and he was the leader of that...and yet none of his projects or pursuits brought him lasting satisfaction..."...everything is vanity..."-he often reflected. From the prospect of quantum information conservation, no quantum information is created or lost...so if no quantum information is created or lost...quantum states of subparticles are just being re-arranged due to the laws of quantum mechanics... So in that sense, one can say that "...there is nothing new under the sun...".. Everything is just a re-arrangements of the ever existing stuff thanks to the existence of physical laws that allow for that..J-Mac
July 16, 2017
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gpuccio:
However, I don’t think that “the discussion here with RodW is going to go nowhere”. It has already been precious, allowing me (and others) to express our arguments, and I really hope that RodW will express further thoughts from his point of view, and I really hope that they will be quality thoughts, because only quality thoughts can really evoke quality answers.
Unfortunately, the track record for most of our naturalist/materialist interlocutors here has been poor to very poor. They mistake obfuscation and obstruction, pretension and posturing, or just being argumentative with sound reasonable evidence based arguments. In other words, we’re arguing about a particular mechanism “A” they’ll come back with well what about this, this and that-- B, C, or D… Never mind that B, C or D have little or nothing to do with A. For example, in discussions about irreducible complexity I have had committed Darwinists try to argue that common descent not only refutes IR but is strong evidence that natural selection acting on random variation is the ubiquitous driver of evolution. Never mind the fact that ID’ists like Behe and Denton accept CD. (For some reason they just ignore that fact.) Never mind, that no one can explain step-by-step-step how an apparently IC mechanism is “planned”* and constructed by a mindless natural process. (*Of course, by planned we can only mean the appearance of being planned.) As a real life machine designer (now retired) I’d like to know how that is done. Isn’t the point of natural empirical science to explain HOW something originated?john_a_designer
July 16, 2017
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Dionisio: OK, we could probably say "polymorphism" instead of "pleiotropism", but I think we understand well what we are speaking of. Regarding the LASSO, paper, I really don't know, it seems very technical. I should read it carefully to just try to understand what they are speaking of! :)gpuccio
July 16, 2017
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Dionisio: Good questions, and certainly not easy to answer. I have checked the AspicDB, a database for alternative splicing and alternative transcripts. 19 alternative transcripts are described for SATB1, only 3 for SATB2. I believe these are not exceptional values. Of course, some forms of post-transcriptional modifications are mentioned, too, in Uniprot, but again nothing special IMO. So, I would say that these are not exceptional proteins from that point of view. The question of how alternative trancripts are regulated and functionally used in different contexts remains, IMO, vastly unsolved. Maybe you can offer some literature reference, if you happen to find it in your remarkable activity of literature search and filtering. :) I would think that much of the "pleiotropism" of possible regulatory functions of these master regulators is already intrinsic in the protein itself, and in its ability to interact differently with its fellow proteins in different situations and cell contexts. But this is only my personal opinion. I don't know if I have really answered your questions. You are welcome to clarify better your point of view, of course. Your contribution and support is always greatly appreciated. :)gpuccio
July 16, 2017
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Does this have any relation at all to the discussed topic?
Gene set selection via LASSO penalized regression (SLPR). Frost HR, Amos CI Nucleic Acids Res. 2017 May 2. doi: 10.1093/nar/gkx291
Gene set testing is an important bioinformatics technique that addresses the challenges of power, interpretation and replication. To better support the analysis of large and highly overlapping gene set collections, researchers have recently developed a number of multiset methods that jointly evaluate all gene sets in a collection to identify a parsimonious group of functionally independent sets. Unfortunately, current multiset methods all use binary indicators for gene and gene set activity and assume that a gene is active if any containing gene set is active. This simplistic model limits performance on many types of genomic data. To address this limitation, we developed gene set Selection via LASSO Penalized Regression (SLPR), a novel mapping of multiset gene set testing to penalized multiple linear regression. The SLPR method assumes a linear relationship between continuous measures of gene activity and the activity of all gene sets in the collection. As we demonstrate via simulation studies and the analysis of TCGA data using MSigDB gene sets, the SLPR method outperforms existing multiset methods when the true biological process is well approximated by continuous activity measures and a linear association between genes and gene sets.
Thanks.Dionisio
July 16, 2017
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gpuccio, I just realized that my reference to genetic pleiotropic effect @40 is incorrect, because that concept has to do with phenotypic traits, not exactly with proteins resulting from gene expression. Mea culpa. I know you're a forgiving teacher, specially to the more disadvantaged students. Nevertheless, the questions @40 remain open.Dionisio
July 16, 2017
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gpuccio, Here's a quasi-dumb question, which maybe has been answered in your text, or it's related to basic knowledge which is assumed as prerequisite to understand the discussed subject. Do the regulatory proteins that you refer to in your OPs are the product of associated genes expressed through the central dogma procedure --i.e. straightforward transcription + translation of given genes-- or the product of pleiotropic DNA material processed through alternative splicing and post-translational modifications, or all of the above + something else? Does the additional information in the given proteins correspond to additional information in the DNA too? Do my questions make sense? I could try to rephrase the questions if they are not clear. Thank you.Dionisio
July 16, 2017
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gpuccio @32: "An explanation must contribute to our understanding, must be formally appropriate, must correspond to what facts are saying."Dionisio
July 16, 2017
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gpuccio @30: "The specificity of the regulation depends critically on the interaction of many complex agents."Dionisio
July 16, 2017
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KF @26: Yes, good catch! Thank you! But perhaps complex, functionally specified informational complexity could go along with the intentionally redundant phrase "complex complexity" too. :)Dionisio
July 15, 2017
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Insightful quote: "Our understanding of protein structure is gross at best. We analyze proteins as a medical examiner analyzes a corpse. We know little of how proteins really work."Dionisio
July 15, 2017
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