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Is there evidence for natural selection?

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From a new book Otangelo Grasso is working on – comments welcome:

I am looking for comments, if my conclusion is sound, that evolution cannot be a theory. It cannot be tested, on how natural selection influences differential reproduction and the fitness landscape. 
Is there evidence for natural selection?

According to Darwin’s Theory, the main actors that drive evolution, is natural Selection, Genetic Drift, and Gene Flow. Natural selection depends on variation through random mutations. Inheritance,  differential survival, and reproduction ( reproductive success which permits new traits to spread in the population).   The genetic modification is supposed to be due to: Survival of the fittest, in other words, 1.  higher survival rates upon specific gene-induced phenotype adaptations to the environment, and 2. higher reproduction rates upon specific evolutionary genetic modifications. Keep in mind that these are two different, distinct factors. It’s a fact that harmful variants, where a mutation influences negatively health, fitness, and reproduction ability of organisms diminish. These are sorted out, or die through disease. In that regard, natural selection is a fact. That says nothing however about an organism gaining more fitness  ( reproductive success )  through the evolution of new advantageous traits.

Definitions of fitness:
J. Dekker (2007): 1. The average number of offspring produced by individuals with a certain genotype, relative to the numbers produced by individuals with other genotypes. 2: The relative competitive ability of a given genotype conferred by adaptive morphological, physiological, or behavioral characters, expressed and usually quantified as the average number of surviving progeny of one genotype compared with the average number of surviving progeny of competing genotypes; a measure of the contribution of a given genotype to the subsequent generation relative to that of other genotypes
A condition necessary for evolution to occur is variation in fitness of organisms according to the state they have for a heritable character. Individuals in the population with some characters must be more likely to reproduce, more fit. Organisms in a population vary in reproductive success. We will discuss fitness in Life History when we discuss competition, interference and the effects of neighbor plants.

Three Components of Fitness.  These different components are in conflict with each other, and any estimate of fitness must consider all of them:
1.  Reproduction
2.  Struggle for existence with competitors
3.  Avoidance of predators  2

S.El-Showk (2012): The common usage of the term “fitness” is connected with the idea of being in shape and associated physical attributes like strength, endurance or speed; this is quite different from its use in biology.  To an evolutionary biologist, fitness simply means reproductive success and reflects how well an organism is adapted to its environment.The main point is that fitness is simply a measure of reproductive success and so won’t always depend on traits such as strength and speed; reproductive success can also be achieved by mimicry, colorful displays, sneak fertilization and a host of other strategies that don’t correspond to the common notion of “physical fitness”.

What then are we to make of the phrase “survival of the fittest”? Fitness is just book-keeping; survival and differential reproduction result from natural selection, which actually is a driving mechanism in evolution. Organisms which are better suited to their environment will reproduce more and so increase the proportion of the population with their traits. Fitness is simply a measurement of survival (which is defined as reproductive success); it’s not the mechanism driving survival.  Organisms (or genes or replicators) don’t survive because they are fit; rather, they are considered fit because they survived. 3

The environment is not stable, but changes. Science would need to have the knowledge of what traits of each species are favored in a specific environment. Adaptation rates and mutational diversity and other spatiotemporal parameters, including population density, mutation rate, and the relative expansion speed and spatial dimensions. When the attempt is made to define with more precision what is meant by the degree of adaptation and fitness, we come across very thorny and seemingly intractable problems. 

As Evolution. Berkley explains: Of course, fitness is a relative thing. A genotype’s fitness depends on the environment in which the organism lives. The fittest genotype during an ice age, for example, is probably not the fittest genotype once the ice age is over. Fitness is a handy concept because it lumps everything that matters to natural selection (survival, mate-finding, reproduction) into one idea. The fittest individual is not necessarily the strongest, fastest, or biggest. A genotype’s fitness includes its ability to survive, find a mate, produce offspring — and ultimately leave its genes in the next generation. 1

Claim: Adam Eyre-Walker (2007): All organisms undergo mutation, the effects of which can be broadly divided into three categories. First, there are mutations that are harmful to the fitness of their host; these mutations generally either reduce survival or fertility. Second, there are ‘neutral’ mutations, which have little or no effect on fitness. Finally, there are advantageous mutations, which increase fitness by allowing organisms to adapt to their environment. Although we can divide mutations into these three categories, there is, in reality, a continuum of selective effects, stretching from those that are strongly deleterious, through weakly deleterious mutations, to neutral mutations and then on to mutations that are mildly or highly adaptive. The relative frequencies of these types of mutation are called the distribution of fitness effects (DFE)5

R. G. Brajesh et.al., (2019): Mutations occur spontaneously during the course of reproduction of an organism. Mutations that impart a beneficial characteristic to the organism are selected and consequently, the frequency of the mutant allele increases in the population. Mutations can be single base changes called point mutations like substitutions, insertions, deletions, as well as gross changes like chromosome recombination, duplication, and translocation 7

Reply:  How can random mutations give rise to higher fitness and higher reproduction of the individuals with the new allele variation favored by natural selection, and so spread in the population? This seems in fact to be a core issue that raises questions. The environmental conditions of a population, the weather, food resources, temperatures, etc. are random How do random events, like weather conditions, together with random mutations in the genome, provoke a fitness increase in an organism and a survival advantage over the other individuals without the mutation? 

T.Bataillon (2014): The rates and properties of new mutations affecting fitness have implications for a number of outstanding questions in evolutionary biology. Obtaining estimates of mutation rates and effects has historically been challenging, and little theory has been available for predicting the distribution of fitness effects (DFE); Future work should be aimed at identifying factors driving the observed variation in the distribution of fitness effects. What can we say about the distribution of fitness effects of new mutations? For the distribution of fitness effects DFE of beneficial mutations, experimentally inferred distributions seem to support theory for the most part. Distribution of fitness effects DFE has largely been unexplored and there is a need to extend both theory and experiment in this area. 4

The above confession demonstrates that a key question, namely how mutations in fact affect fitness has not been answered. I go further and say: Darwin’s Theory can in reality not be tested, nor quantified. The unknown factors in each case are too many, and the variations in the environment, and population and species behavior vary too. It cannot be defined what influence the given environment exercises in regard to specific animals and traits in that environment, nor how the environmental influence would change the fitness and reproduction success of each distinct animal species. Nor how reproduction success given new traits would change upon environmental changes.  What determines whether a gene variant spreads or not would depend theoretically on an incredibly complex web of factors – the species’ ecology, its physical and social environment, and sexual behavior. A further factor adding complexity is the fact that high social rank is associated with high levels of both copulatory behavior and the production of offspring which is widespread in the study of animal social behavior. 

As alpha males have on average higher reproductive success than other males, since they outcompete weaker individuals, and get preference to copulate if other (weaker)  males gain beneficial mutations (or the alphas’ negative mutations) as the alphas can outperform and win the battle for reproduction,  thus selection has an additional hurdle to overcome and spread the new variant in the population. This does not say anything about the fact that it would have to be determined what gene loci are responsible for sexual selection and behavior, and only mutations that influence sexual behavior would have an influence on fitness and the struggle to contribute more offspring to the next generation.   It is in praxis impossible to isolate these factors and see which is of selective importance,  quantify them, plug them in (usually in this context) to a mixed multivariate computational model, see what’s statistically significant, and get meaningful, real-life results. The varying factors are too many and nonpredictive. Darwin’s idea, therefore, depends on variable, unquantifiable multitude of factors that cannot be known, and cannot be tested, which turns the theory at best into a non-testable hypothesis, which then remains just that: a hypothesis. Since Darwin’s idea cannot be tested, it’s by definition, unscientific. 

If fitness is a relative thing, it cannot be detected and proven that natural selection is the mechanism that generates variations that produce more offspring, and therefore the new trait spreads in the population. Therefore, mutations and natural selection cannot be demonstrated to have the claimed effects. What is the relation between mutations in the genome, and the number of offspring? What mutations are responsible for the number of offspring produced? If the theory of evolution is true, there must be a detectable mechanism, that determines or induces, or regulates the number of offspring based due to specific genetic mutations. Only a specific section in the genome is responsible for this regulation.

There are specific regions in the genome responsible for each  mechanism of reproduction, being it sexual, or asexual reproduction, that is:  

1. Regulation and programming of sexual attraction ( hormones, pheromones, instinct, etc.)
2. Frequency of sexual intercourse and reproduction
3. The regulation of the number of offspring produced

What influence do environmental pressures have on these 3 points? What pressures induced organisms to evolve sexual, and asexual reproduction?  Are the tree mechanisms mentioned not amazingly various and differentiated, and each species have individual, species-specific mechanisms? Some have an enormous number of offspring that helps the survival of the species, while others have a very low reproduction rate ( whales  ? ) How could environmental pressures have induced this amazing variation, and why?  That means also on a molecular level, enormous differences from one species to the other exist.  how could accidental mutations have been the basis for all this variation? Would there not have to be SPECIFIC environmental pressures resulting in the selection of  SPECIFIC traits based on mutations of the organism to be selected that provide survival advantage and fitness? ( genome or epigenome, whatever )  AND higher reproduction rates of the organism at the same time?

What is the chance, that random mutations provoke positive phenotypic differences, that help the survival of the individual? What kind of environmental factors influence the survival of a species? What kind of mutations must be selected to guarantee a higher survival rate?

The lack of predictive power of natural selection is due to different environmental conditions that turn it impossible to quantify the effects and measure their outcome.

Ivana Cvijović (2015):Temporal fluctuations in environmental conditions can have dramatic effects on the fate of each new mutation, reducing the efficiency of natural selection and increasing the fixation probability of all mutations, including those that are strongly deleterious on average. This makes it difficult for a population to maintain specialist adaptations, even if their benefits outweigh their costs. Temporally varying selection pressures are neglected throughout much of population genetics, despite the fact that truly constant environments are rare. The fate of each mutation depends critically on its fitness in each environment, the dynamics of environmental changes, and the population size. We still lack both a quantitative and conceptual understanding of more significant fluctuations, where selection in each environment can lead to measurable changes in allele frequency. 6

More problems: R. G. Brajesh (2019): The genotypic mutational space of an organism is so vast, even for the tiniest of organisms like viruses or even one gene, that it becomes experimentally intractable. Hence, studies have limited to studying only small parts of the genome. For example, experiments have attempted to map the functional effect of mutations at important active site residues in proteins, like Lunzer et al. engineered the IDMH enzyme to use NADP as cofactor instead of NAD, and obtain the fitness landscape in terms of the mutational steps. Other experiments have attempted to ascertain how virulence is affected by mutations at certain important loci in viruses. However, due to the scale of the genotypic mutational space, it has been extremely difficult to experimentally obtain fitness landscapes of larger multicomponent systems, and study the statistical properties of these landscapes like the Distribution of Fitness Effects (DFE). Attempts have also been made to back-calculate the underlying DFE by experimentally observing how frequently new beneficial mutations emerge and of what strength, but the final results were inconclusive. As a result, how the beneficial, neutral, and deleterious mutations and their effects are distributed, when the organism genotype is at different locations on the fitness landscape, has remained largely intractable.7

And more problems: Adam Eyre-Walker (2007): The distribution of fitness effects DFE of deleterious mutations, in particular the proportion of weakly deleterious mutations, determine a population’s expected drift load—the reduction in fitness due to multiple small-effect deleterious mutations that individually are close enough to neutral to occasionally escape selection, but can collectively have important impacts on fitness. The DFE of new mutations influences many evolutionary patterns, such as the expected degree of parallel evolution, the evolutionary potential and capacity of populations to respond to novel environments, the evolutionary advantage of sex, and the maintenance of variation on quantitative traits, to name a few. Thus, an understanding of the DFE of mutations is a pivotal part of our understanding of the process of evolution.  Furthermore, the available data suggest that some aspects of the DFE of advantageous mutations are likely to differ between species5

Conclusion: The effects of natural selection on differential reproduction cannot be tested, since too many unknown variables have to be included, and that cannot lead to meaningful, quantifiable results that permit a clear picture. 

1. Evolution.Berkley: Evolutionary fitness
2. J.Dekker: www.agron.iastate.edu/~weeds/AG517/Content/WeedEvol/NaturalSelection/natselect.html” target=”_blank” rel=”nofollow”>Natural Selection and its Four Conditions 2007
3. S.El-Showk: Natural selection: On fitness (2012)
4. Thomas Bataillon: Effects of new mutations on fitness: insights from models and data 2014 Jul
5. Adam Eyre-Walker: The distribution of fitness effects of new mutations August 2007
6. Ivana Cvijović: Fate of a mutation in a fluctuating environment August 24, 2015
7. R. G. Brajesh: Distribution of fitness effects of mutations obtained from a simple genetic regulatory network model 08 July 2019

Comments
@60: Thanks for those links, esp the link to the Shvets and Kolomeisky research. I would need to think a lot more about whether quantum-mechanical effects can mitigate Brownian motion, but on the face of it, it seems plausible if quantum effects can be somehow regulated. Still don't see how that's going to vindicate the use of engineering principles to describe molecular biology, though.PyrrhoManiac1
October 26, 2022
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Pyr, FYI, 'Brownian motion' in cells is now shown to be far more constrained in cells than was first believed. For instance, in the following 2016 paper, it was found that “crowding in cells doesn’t hamper protein binding as much as they thought it did.” In fact, finding a lack of ‘collisions’ in the crowded cell was a ‘counterintuitive surprise’ for the researchers: Specifically one of the researchers stated: “This was a surprise,” “It’s counterintuitive, because one would think collisions between a protein and other molecules on DNA would slow it down. But the system is so dynamic, it doesn’t appear to be an issue.”
Proteins put up with the roar of the crowd – June 23, 2016 Excerpt: It gets mighty crowded around your DNA, but don’t worry: According to Rice University researchers, your proteins are nimble enough to find what they need. Rice theoretical scientists studying the mechanisms of protein-DNA interactions in live cells showed that crowding in cells doesn’t hamper protein binding as much as they thought it did.,,, If DNA can be likened to a library, it surely is a busy one. Molecules roam everywhere, floating in the cytoplasm and sticking to the tightly wound double helix. “People know that almost 90 percent of DNA is covered with proteins, such as polymerases, nucleosomes that compact two meters into one micron, and other protein molecules,” Kolomeisky said.,,, That makes it seem that proteins sliding along the strand would have a tough time binding, and it’s possible they sometimes get blocked. But the Rice team’s theory and simulations indicated that crowding agents usually move just as rapidly, sprinting out of the way. “If they move at the same speed, the molecules don’t bother each other,” Kolomeisky said. “Even if they’re covering a region, the blockers move away quickly so your protein can bind.” In previous research, the team determined that stationary obstacles sometimes help quicken a protein’s search for its target by limiting options. This time, the researchers sought to define how crowding both along DNA and in the cytoplasm influenced the process. “We may think everything’s fixed and frozen in cells, but it’s not,” Kolomeisky said. “Everything is moving.”,,, Floating proteins appear to find their targets quickly as well. “This was a surprise,” he said. “It’s counterintuitive, because one would think collisions between a protein and other molecules on DNA would slow it down. But the system is so dynamic, it doesn’t appear to be an issue.” http://phys.org/news/2016-06-proteins-roar-crowd.html
In fact, instead of a biological systems being “dominated by randomly colliding individual protein molecules” (B. Alberts, C. Zimmer), the fact of the matter is that biological systems are now shown to be extremely resistant to random background noise. As the following article on photosynthesis stated, 'These biological systems can direct a quantum process,,, in astoundingly subtle and controlled ways – showing remarkable resistance to the aggressive, random background noise of biology and extreme environments.'
Unlocking nature's quantum engineering for efficient solar energy - January 7, 2013 Excerpt: Certain biological systems living in low light environments have unique protein structures for photosynthesis that use quantum dynamics to convert 100% of absorbed light into electrical charge,,, "Some of the key issues in current solar cell technologies appear to have been elegantly and rigorously solved by the molecular architecture of these PPCs – namely the rapid, lossless transfer of excitons to reaction centres.",,, These biological systems can direct a quantum process, in this case energy transport, in astoundingly subtle and controlled ways – showing remarkable resistance to the aggressive, random background noise of biology and extreme environments. "This new understanding of how to maintain coherence in excitons, and even regenerate it through molecular vibrations, provides a fascinating glimpse into the intricate design solutions – seemingly including quantum engineering – ,,, and which could provide the inspiration for new types of room temperature quantum devices." http://phys.org/news/2013-01-nature-quantum-efficient-solar-energy.html
Likewise the following article on human vision stated that, “Research,, has shown that humans can detect the presence of a single photon, the smallest measurable unit of light”.,,, “it is remarkable: a photon, the smallest physical entity with quantum properties of which light consists, is interacting with a biological system consisting of billions of cells, all in a warm and wet environment,”,, and the researched added, “The response that the photon generates survives all the way to the level of our awareness despite the ubiquitous background noise. Any man-made detector would need to be cooled and isolated from noise to behave the same way.”,,, “What we want to know next is how does a biological system achieve such sensitivity? How does it achieve this in the presence of noise?”
Study suggests humans can detect even the smallest units of light – July 21, 2016 Excerpt: Research,, has shown that humans can detect the presence of a single photon, the smallest measurable unit of light. Previous studies had established that human subjects acclimated to the dark were capable only of reporting flashes of five to seven photons.,,, it is remarkable: a photon, the smallest physical entity with quantum properties of which light consists, is interacting with a biological system consisting of billions of cells, all in a warm and wet environment,” says Vaziri. “The response that the photon generates survives all the way to the level of our awareness despite the ubiquitous background noise. Any man-made detector would need to be cooled and isolated from noise to behave the same way.”,,, The gathered data from more than 30,000 trials demonstrated that humans can indeed detect a single photon incident on their eye with a probability significantly above chance. “What we want to know next is how does a biological system achieve such sensitivity? How does it achieve this in the presence of noise?” http://phys.org/news/2016-07-humans-smallest.html
Moreover, instead of proteins randomly colliding into each other, (C. Zimmer), proteins instead are found to be “analogous to the way wine glasses tremble”,,, "If you tap on a bell, it rings for some time, and with a sound that is specific to the bell. This is how the proteins behave,",,, "Many scientists have previously thought a protein is more like a wet sponge than a bell: If you tap on a wet sponge, you don't get any sustained sound."
Symphony of Life, Revealed: New Imaging Technique Captures Vibrations of Proteins, Tiny Motions Critical to Human Life - Jan. 16, 2014 Excerpt: To observe the protein vibrations, Markelz' team relied on an interesting characteristic of proteins: The fact that they vibrate at the same frequency as the light they absorb. This is analogous to the way wine glasses tremble and shatter when a singer hits exactly the right note. Markelz explained: Wine glasses vibrate because they are absorbing the energy of sound waves, and the shape of a glass determines what pitches of sound it can absorb. Similarly, proteins with different structures will absorb and vibrate in response to light of different frequencies. So, to study vibrations in lysozyme, Markelz and her colleagues exposed a sample to light of different frequencies and polarizations, and measured the types of light the protein absorbed. This technique, , allowed the team to identify which sections of the protein vibrated under normal biological conditions. The researchers were also able to see that the vibrations endured over time, challenging existing assumptions. "If you tap on a bell, it rings for some time, and with a sound that is specific to the bell. This is how the proteins behave," Markelz said. "Many scientists have previously thought a protein is more like a wet sponge than a bell: If you tap on a wet sponge, you don't get any sustained sound." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116084838.htm
Moreover, in the following article subtitled 'how bio-molecular machines can generate nontrivial quantum states', the authors state that entanglement can be maintained even in the presence of very intense noise,
Persistent dynamic entanglement from classical motion: how bio-molecular machines can generate nontrivial quantum states Gian Giacomo Guerreschi, Jianming Cai1, Sandu Popescu and Hans J Briegel Published 29 May 2012 Excerpt: Very recently (Cai et al 2010 Phys. Rev. E 82 021921), a simple mechanism was presented by which a molecule subjected to forced oscillations, out of thermal equilibrium, can maintain quantum entanglement between two of its quantum degrees of freedom. Crucially, entanglement can be maintained even in the presence of very intense noise, so intense that no entanglement is possible when the forced oscillations cease. This mechanism may allow for the presence of nontrivial quantum entanglement in biological systems. Here we significantly enlarge the study of this model. In particular, we show that the persistent generation of dynamic entanglement is not restricted to the bosonic heat bath model, but can also be observed in other decoherence models, e.g. the spin gas model, and in non-Markovian scenarios. We also show how conformational changes can be used by an elementary machine to generate entanglement even in unfavorable conditions. In biological systems, similar mechanisms could be exploited by more complex molecular machines or motors. http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1367-2630/14/5/053043/meta
And in the following article, the authors even go on to state that 'this reverses the previous orthodoxy, which held that quantum effects could not exist in biological systems because of the amount of noise in these systems',,, Environmental noise here drives a persistent and cyclic generation of new entanglement.
Quantum entanglement in hot systems - 2011 Excerpt: The authors remark that this reverses the previous orthodoxy, which held that quantum effects could not exist in biological systems because of the amount of noise in these systems,,, Environmental noise here drives a persistent and cyclic generation of new entanglement. http://quantum-mind.co.uk/quantum-entanglement-hot-systems/
etc.. etc.. etc... Of related note: At the 6:52 minute mark of the video, Jim Al-Khalili states:
“To paraphrase, (Erwin Schrödinger in his book “What Is Life”), he says at the molecular level living organisms have a certain order. A structure to them that’s very different from the random thermodynamic jostling of atoms and molecules in inanimate matter of the same complexity. In fact, living matter seems to behave in its order and its structure just like inanimate cooled down to near absolute zero. Where quantum effects play a very important role. There is something special about the structure, about the order, inside a living cell. So Schrodinger speculated that maybe quantum mechanics plays a role in life”. Jim Al-Khalili – Quantum biology – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOzCkeTPR3Q
And via the 'way back' machine to 1998, "instead of a cell dominated by randomly colliding individual protein molecules, we now know that nearly every major process in a cell is carried out by assemblies of 10 or more protein molecules."
“We have always underestimated cells. Undoubtedly we still do today. But at least we are no longer as naïve as we were when I was a graduate student in the 1960s. Then, most of us viewed cells as containing a giant set of second-order reactions: molecules A and B were thought to diffuse freely, randomly colliding with each other to produce molecule AB — and likewise for the many other molecules that interact with each other inside a cell. This seemed reasonable because, as we had learned from studying physical chemistry, motions at the scale of molecules are incredibly rapid. Consider an enzyme, for example. If its substrate molecule is present at a concentration of 0.5mM,which is only one substrate molecule for every 105 water molecules, the enzyme’s active site will randomly collide with about 500,000 molecules of substrate per second. And a typical globular protein will be spinning to and fro, turning about various axes at rates corresponding to a million rotations per second. But, as it turns out, we can walk and we can talk because the chemistry that makes life possible is much more elaborate and sophisticated than anything we students had ever considered. Proteins make up most of the dry mass of a cell. But instead of a cell dominated by randomly colliding individual protein molecules, we now know that nearly every major process in a cell is carried out by assemblies of 10 or more protein molecules. And, as it carries out its biological functions, each of these protein assemblies interacts with several other large complexes of proteins. Indeed, the entire cell can be viewed as a factory that contains an elaborate network of interlocking assembly lines, each of which is composed of a set of large protein machines.” – Bruce Alberts, “The Cell as a Collection of Protein Machines: Preparing the Next Generation of Molecular Biologists,” Cell, 92 (February 6, 1998): 291-294) https://brucealberts.ucsf.edu/publications/BAPub157.pdf Editor-in-Chief of Science (2009-2013). Dr Alberts served two six-year terms as the president of the National Academy of Sciences
bornagain77
October 26, 2022
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@57:
Apologies, Pyrrhomaniac1, I get a bit triggered when the word “teleology” pops up. I see your comments are much more nuanced and deserve more than the cursory glance I gave them.
No worries, I know that "the T word" can be 'triggering' for lots of people. My view is, since we know that we can't do biology without teleology, we had better figure out how to think about teleology! @58:
What in the world are you saying ? That a cell builds the same protein or organizes a cell division or makes a repair with different/random chemical reactions? You must be a very desperate atheist.
I'm saying that if one compares gene products across individual cells, or the same gene product in the same cell over time, there are going to be subtle variations in how the intracellular environment affects transcription and translation. Those variations are caused by Brownian motion in liquid environments that aren't computable in advance. And that's why the engineering metaphors don't work. (Also, not an atheist.)PyrrhoManiac1
October 26, 2022
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PyrrhoManiac1JVL Most generally: I think that microscopic domains in liquid environments (including but not limited to molecular biology) are so replete with the randomness caused by Brownian motion that engineering metaphors are wholly misleading.
:) What in the world are you saying ? That a cell builds the same protein or organizes a cell division or makes a repair with different/random chemical reactions? You must be a very desperate atheist.Sandy
October 26, 2022
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Apologies, Pyrrhomaniac1, I get a bit triggered when the word "teleology" pops up. I see your comments are much more nuanced and deserve more than the cursory glance I gave them.Alan Fox
October 26, 2022
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@53: "How so? I’d be interested to see some empirical (heh) support for that claim." What I had in mind is the idea of "biological autonomy": that we can describe biological systems as self-maintaining, goal-oriented systems. There's a long video here, which is quite good but somewhat dry. Matteo Mossio and his colleagues Alvaro Moreno, Maël Montévil, and Leonardo Bich have many papers available free online that explain their ideas. Here are a few: Biological Organization as Closure of Constraint Organisational Closure in Biological Organisms What Makes Biological Organization Teleological?PyrrhoManiac1
October 26, 2022
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@41.
protein synthesis is absolutely central to the cell, and the cell to biological life. That we find complex coded algorithms there, where algorithms are inherently goal directed procedures reflective of purpose [and use of language, process logic etc] puts manifestations of purpose into the core of biology. Nor is this a mere readily dismissible metaphor or analogy, we are looking at recognisable cases of machine code in action.
Algorithms, if I understand the concept correctly, aren't just processes with finitely many steps that come to a stop. They are recursive processes that systemically map inputs to outputs. If I understand the concept correctly, that means there must be a one-to-one correspondence between input strings and output strings. Yet that is not what we see in molecular biology: there are lots of epigenetic factors (methylation and de-methylation), post-transcriptional events, and post-translational events -- the same nucleotide sequence can generate different protein products based on changes in the intracellular environment. There's a sensitivity to context and circumstance that we just don't find in macroscopic computing devices. Additionally, in the case of molecular biology, there's no way of demarcating 'software' from 'hardware'. We can represent the nucleotide-amino acid correspondences, but the details of those correspondence depends on specific facts about the geometry of binding sites. We just don't know how to distinguish the 'software' from the 'hardware', and that's crucial for being able to talk about an algorithmic process in the first place. For that matter, we don't even know how to tailor-make a protein from nucleotide sequences: that is, given some functional configuration we want in a protein, what would be the right nucleotide sequence? If that's right, that would seem to entail that protein synthesis is not a computable function. And if that's true, then there isn't "machine code" in the cell -- regardless of whether Cricks said so or not. Most generally: I think that microscopic domains in liquid environments (including but not limited to molecular biology) are so replete with the randomness caused by Brownian motion that engineering metaphors are wholly misleading.PyrrhoManiac1
October 26, 2022
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Not very clear but I do not have time now to express it more clearly.
This is meant for myself but if anyone wants to comment, feel free. Change happens through variation. This is well documented. But significant change is rare at best. The change can be small or it can be a massive change. By massive, I mean the size of change in genome as opposed to the effect of the change. Natural selection, or the process of certain changes leaving more individuals with a specific gene pool will happen by definition. By definition I mean that if the allele assortment changes over time, that will indicate something affected this assortment and it could be just random accumulations or it could be one assortment is better suited for its environment and produced more offspring. This process tends to reduce variation in the gene pool as some assortment become better able to survive in the new environment. However, it is possible that some new alleles have developed through this process. Will these new alleles lead to changes that are dramatic or will they essentially be trivial, that is will not lead to any new significant characteristics or capabilities? I maintain that it is the latter. Because any changes that lead to something dramatic will enable the gene pool of the organisms to out compete its competitors and as such destroy the ecology it inhabits. Such changes could happen quickly or take eons to accumulate. Either way a significant change has taken place. The timing of such changes cannot be coorinated with changes in other organisms to reduce the effect of the change, since they are completely independent of each other in terms of capability and timing. Therefore, any changes that do happen must be trivial and not lead to anything that is dramatic. Or else the ecology will be destroyed. Therefore Darwinian Evolution is self refuting. Postulating that it happens leads to the destruction of the organism in which it is taking place. Darwinian processes do happen in genetics, most emphatically yes. Darwinian processes in Evolution, most emphatically no. If there is Evolution and that is pretty much a fact, it must have happened some other way. I have been capitalizing the word "Evolution" to distinguish it from small changes in genetics which everyone agrees with. The debate is over large changes not small changes. By saying small changes accumulate, one is avoiding the obvious problem of ecology destruction and thus, destruction of the gene pool of the organism that has experienced the large accumulation of changes. It makes no difference if it is fast or slow, the end result will be the same. I'm sure this could be made more clear. What I am interested in is there is a flaw in the logic. In other words how could an organism experience significant changes without destroying its ecology. I often use the following example to illustrate this point. People frequently point to supposed imperfections in humans to indicate the failure of the designer to make a better human. A good example, of this is one I have frequently brought up, namely strength in humans. Humans that were stronger would have been able to produce more food. Strength has been a limiting factor in producing food for all of history. So why didn't humans evolve to be stronger since strength is definitely in the gene pool? Why didn't it win out. through natural selection?jerry
October 26, 2022
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...homeostasis demonstrates the empirical reality of teleology...
How so? I'd be interested to see some empirical (heh) support for that claim.Alan Fox
October 26, 2022
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@48:
Living organisms temporarily maintain themselves out of equilibrium with their niche environment by exploiting available sources of energy (solar energy in green plants, for instance). It’s the key to being alive rather than dead.
Right -- that's homeostasis -- a principle so important that J. Scott Turner calls it "Biology's Second Law". I think it quite plausible that homeostasis has explanatory priority over selection (what Turner calls "Biology's First Law") because homeostasis demonstrates the empirical reality of teleology -- not the world-governing principle of "cosmic teleology" but the intrinsic purposiveness of individual organisms. A widely held view in 20th century evolutionary theory is that teleology, to the extent that it exists at all, is explained by selection acting on genetic variation. (This is the whole point of Ernst Mayr's idea that "teleonomy" is explained by the genetic program.) I think this was a plausible view at the time, given the emergence of cybernetics in the 1940s, but it's turned out to be a mistake. Instead, we need to look to homeostasis as the key to self-maintaining functional structures in organisms, understand teleology in terms of homeostasis -- homeostasis, that is, and neither selection nor variation. Selection is a super-organismal, population-level effect of what tends to happen over time as organisms attempt to meet their goals and satisfy their needs. Genetic variation is important, but it can happens after selection as well as before (e.g. the Baldwin effect), and I think it too has been exaggerated -- especially in popular treatments of evolutionary theory. The neglect of homeostasis in favor of selection and variation became entrenched in 20th century biology when the Modern Synthesis cemented population genetics as the centerpiece of the whole theory, to the benign neglect of organismal biology (esp. embryology and paleontology). There's been a huge resurgence of organism-centered biology in recent 21st century evolutionary theory.PyrrhoManiac1
October 26, 2022
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AF, homeostasis for cells and organisms is no mean feat. KFkairosfocus
October 26, 2022
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Jerry, I think Q is alluding to the wolves vs rabbits problem. Wolves have few offspring but care more for them, going on to dominate an environment through pack based predatory power. Rabbits have many offspring but this serves as wolf fodder, the wolves in turn keeping rabbits within limits of the ecosystem. We can extend to grass which everybody tramples and many eat. Mango trees make many sweet fruit and the seeds are protected by being hard coated -- they will pass through a cow's gut [and would then be deposited with a dose of fertiliser] -- and while an obvious large nut, are apparently bitter. Which, BTW, is a common signal for toxicity. KF PS, Hitler inappropriately extended this to his doctrines that turned Germany into predators on their neighbours. The world united to defeat the threat.kairosfocus
October 26, 2022
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AF: "Speculation. Living organisms temporarily maintain themselves out of equilibrium with their niche environment by exploiting available sources of energy (solar energy in green plants, for instance). It’s the key to being alive rather than dead." So how is this self-admitted 'speculation' suppose to work exactly? Were some chemotroph bacteria, (which are already very sophisticated in their ability to capture energy), just sitting around one day and said to themselves, "Hey, there is some really neat solar energy over there, why don't we construct really elaborate photosynthetic processes as well so that we may be able 'exploit' that available source of solar energy?",, In short, none of your teleological based 'speculation' on 'exploiting' available energy sources makes any scientific sense.
Origin of life: heterotrophic or autotrophic , the emergence of the Basic Metabolic Processes https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/t2173-origin-of-life-heterotrophic-or-autotrophic-the-emergence-of-the-basic-metabolic-processes Evolutionary biology: Out of thin air John F. Allen & William Martin: The measure of the problem is here: “Oxygenetic photosynthesis involves about 100 proteins that are highly ordered within the photosynthetic membranes of the cell." http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v445/n7128/full/445610a.html Researchers Build Public “Library” To Help Understand Photosynthesis - March 19, 2019 Excerpt: It isn’t easy being green. It takes thousands of genes to build the photosynthetic machinery that plants need to harness sunlight for growth. And yet, researchers don’t know exactly how these genes work. Now a team led by Princeton University researchers has constructed a public “library” to help researchers to find out what each gene does. Using the library, the team identified 303 genes associated with photosynthesis including 21 newly discovered genes with high potential to provide new insights into this life-sustaining biological process. The study was published online this week in Nature Genetics. “The part of the plant responsible for photosynthesis is like a complex machine made up of many parts, and we want to understand what each part does,” said Martin Jonikas, assistant professor of molecular biology at Princeton. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/researchers-build-public-library-to-help-understand-photosynthesis/ etc.. etc..
bornagain77
October 26, 2022
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However, it’s also likely that there’s an equivalent in biological ecosystems to something like Le Chatelier’s principle in chemistry, which maintains equilibria by counteracting changes in parameters.
Speculation. Living organisms temporarily maintain themselves out of equilibrium with their niche environment by exploiting available sources of energy (solar energy in green plants, for instance). It's the key to being alive rather than dead.Alan Fox
October 25, 2022
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Otangelo @45, Thank you for the information. I've run across some interesting estimates regarding fixation of a trait in a population from my reading some years back. Unfortunately, I've not been able to locate the reference yet, but I'll keep looking. -QQuerius
October 25, 2022
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Jerry @44,
This leads to the possibilities of the fine tuning of ecologies. Nothing as precise as the fine tuning of the universe or the Earth but are ecologies such that they cannot continue unless the variation in the members are restricted with certain ranges?
Yes, fine tuning is exactly what occurred to me when I was adjusting (and failing at) my ecosystem simulations. However, it’s also likely that there’s an equivalent in biological ecosystems to something like Le Chatelier's principle in chemistry, which maintains equilibria by counteracting changes in parameters. My point is that optimization of an organism in an ecosystem can easily run counter to the survival of the ecosystem by reducing its carrying capacity. -QQuerius
October 25, 2022
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Remind you, guys, that the only point of the OP is that the effects of natural selection in regards to differential reproduction, and fixation rate of different, supposedly beneficial allele variants in the genome, of animals living in the wild, CANNOT BE TESTED, and quantified, since unquantifiable variables are involved, like unstable ecological conditions, hierarchy and differentiated sexual behaviors, like alpha males copulating more frequently than other males, responsible for more offspring, etc. My observation has been confirmed by further science papers, that I have encountered, after posting the OP. L.Bromham (2017): The search for simple unifying theories in macroevolution and macroecology seems unlikely to succeed given the vast number of factors that can influence a particular lineage’s evolutionary trajectory, including rare events and the weight of history. Patterns in biodiversity are shaped by a great many factors, both intrinsic and extrinsic to organisms. Both evidence and theory suggests that one such factor is variation in the mutation rate between species. But the explanatory power of the observed relationship between molecular rates and biodiversity is relatively modest, so it does not provide anything like the predictive power that might be hoped for in a unifying theory. However, we feel that the evidence is growing that, in addition to the many and varied influences on the generation of diversity, the differential rate supply of variation through species-specific differences in mutation rate has some role to play in generating different rates of diversification. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2017.00012/full Z. Patwa (2008): To date, the fixation probability of a specific beneficial mutation has never been experimentally measured. https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2008.0248#d3e1489Otangelo
October 25, 2022
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I am going to be brief because formulating my thesis is taking too much time
While I agree that Darwinian evolution is supposed to occur in tiny steps, how would it be advantageous to the survival of an individual organism to evolve a lower rate of reproduction than the other organisms of its same species?
I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. It doesn't make sense to me. I am trying to say that all changes must be trivial, that is they will make the organism adapt better to a new environment but at the same time not out compete other organisms in its ecology. It's hard to imagine how a species could be superior in a non trivial way when to do so would allow it to outcompete its competitors. It would have to out compete previous versions without out. competing other species. It would be a fine line. How would a superior characteristic arise, better sight, stronger, faster, or whatever without also out competing the other species in the ecology. So they must be trivial. Even if they did accumulate at a very slow rate, eventually they would reach a point that would be better than their competitors. The rate of change is anything but a constant and it would be absurd to say that improved characteristics of competing species would offset each other when there is no process to ensure this. Individual organisms do not evolve. They die off. Offspring of an individual organism will have a different genome (single cell organism may be an exception). Some times the genome of offspring are better adapted to the environment, and are more likely to survive and the characteristics of these gene pools that facilitate this will be more prevalent. We call the result natural selection. This has the result of reducing the variation in the species. But the changes are trivial, just some alleles more prevalent than before. That is they will not affect the structure of the organism very much. However, suppose the offspring's genome had a major change due to some form of variation. Allan MacNeill used to say there were 47+ possible source for variation. Now the gene pool is expanded by the variation. Suppose some combination of these variations led to a new characteristic that made the organisms superior to the previous organisms. Then this organism would out compete the previous gene pool and eliminate the previous organisms as well as other organism using the same ecology and thus, itself. There can be no magic rate of improvement without eventually eliminating other elements of the ecology and then itself. Not very clear but I do not have time now to express it more clearly. This leads to the possibilities of the fine tuning of ecologies. Nothing as precise as the fine tuning of the universe or the Earth but are ecologies such that they cannot continue unless the variation in the members are restricted with certain ranges?jerry
October 25, 2022
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Jerry @40,
Querius: reproduction without constraints dooms an ecosystem. How can natural selection possibly keep this from happening? Jerry: Very easily.
While I agree that Darwinian evolution is supposed to occur in tiny steps, how would it be advantageous to the survival of an individual organism to evolve a lower rate of reproduction than the other organisms of its same species? -QQuerius
October 25, 2022
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Q, the issue is about feedback loops, lags [so phase shifts] and degenerative vs regenerative feedback. The solution is well balanced robust tuning and with a complex situation that exponentiates with degree of interaction, coupling etc. In shoet, a complex organised system dependent on configuration has a question of where are the operating points, thence islands of function in a configuration space, possible attractors and more, especially if nonlinearities are present. Much of the objection to Orgel-Wicken functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information [FSCO/I] is driven by failure to recognise such systems issues. KFkairosfocus
October 25, 2022
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PM1, protein synthesis is absolutely central to the cell, and the cell to biological life. That we find complex coded algorithms there, where algorithms are inherently goal directed procedures reflective of purpose [and use of language, process logic etc] puts manifestations of purpose into the core of biology. Nor is this a mere readily dismissible metaphor or analogy, we are looking at recognisable cases of machine code in action. Yes, this is a four state system, the Russians had three state machines and digital goes far beyond binary. Digital means, discrete state. The genetic code is a code, rightly widely and generally recognised as such. The mRNA is a string data structure tape, the tRNA a transport unit and position arm element where the actual encoding is in what is attached to the CCA tip, the ribosome is a constructor unit, with code tape controlled start, extension, halt, all based on a prong height code similar to keys for a Yale type lock. Resistance to acknowledging this seems to be driven by realisation of the consequences, not the widely recognised facts on the ground that are on record all the way back to Crick's March 19 1953 letter to his son where on p 5 he first says it is like a code then emphasises the is by underscoring in it IS a code. KFkairosfocus
October 25, 2022
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reproduction without constraints dooms an ecosystem. How can natural selection possibly keep this from happening?
Very easily. Because natural selection only works in genetics, whatever changes that come about are trivial. This understanding is the basis for my claim that Darwinian changes are self refuting as a means of Evolution. Behe shows this in the Lenski genetic experiments and in the wild with devolution. The reasons why Darwinian Evolution is accepted has to do with its seemingly obvious affect on changes in organisms. Changes that are morphologically based but in reality must be based on genetics which doesn't have the power to make significant changes. Its acceptance has to do with its apparent beauty as an elegant theory. See #33 above.jerry
October 25, 2022
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PyrrhoManiac1 @37, Good point--biological systems are not deterministic. A point can be made for "survival of the luckiest," which is why a single mutation in a population is not enough for fixation within a population. Advances in the study of epigenetics indicate that environmental stimulii have a profound effect on gene expression. For example, it's now believed that adaptive changes in Darwin's finches have a strong epigenetic component, and that these are expressed in the next generation rather than hundreds or thousands of years. The supposed evolution of epigenetics is also a fascinating topic for the questions and issues it raises. For example https://academic.oup.com/icb/article/54/1/31/2797821?login=false -QQuerius
October 25, 2022
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Back to the OP, there's a problem with definition of Fitness. Point 2 reads:
Struggle for existence with competitors
* If any one competitor "wins" it begins to form a monoculture, which is more prone to catastrophic collapse. The Irish potato famine comes to mind. * If a predator consistently "wins," its population collapses due to starvation. * If an herbivore "wins," it damages or destroys the "carrying capacity" of an ecosystem. The spread of rabbits in Australia come to mind. https://www.rabbitfreeaustralia.org.au/rabbits-in-australia/ Achieving and maintaining a stable ecosystem is not trivial. I once spent a lot of time programming an ecosystem simulation. I was discouraged that it always seemed to suffer increasingly wild fluctuations in its component species and then crash. Then, I found out that this is a typical result. The conclusion is that reproduction without constraints dooms an ecosystem. How can natural selection possibly keep this from happening? -QQuerius
October 25, 2022
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@26:
PM1, the first teleology is in the algorithms encoded in D/RNA. An algorithm being a finite, goal directed stepwise process that halts. As in, goal directed. So, to, as in, goal. KF
I have two worries about this idea. The first is that it seems to commit a sort of "mereological fallacy": to attribute to a part of the system a property that belongs to the whole. It is to say that the organism as a whole exhibits teleology because one part of that system (the genetic algorithm) does. In contrast, I would rather say that teleology is a property of the system as a whole, and that the smallest "unit" of teleology is a single cell. The second is that the use of engineering metaphors in molecular biology is really problematic. This is because microscopic systems are subjected to Brownian motion in ways that macroscopic systems simply are not. This means that microscopic systems are constantly engulfed in massive amounts of randomness that's unlike what we see in human-built artifacts, esp because we isolate our systems from possible sources of noise, heat, etc. as much as we can. For example, although a specific nucleotide sequence corresponds to a specific amino acid sequence, the actual gene products can vary quite a bit from individual cell to individual cell -- it's just that the differences get washed out at large enough cell populations. We just don't see the rigidity of inputs to outputs that we see in computer programs.PyrrhoManiac1
October 25, 2022
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The MO of the anti ID person is to focus on some trivial irrelevant detail while failing to engage in the substance of an argument. The above is an example.
There is no substance to Otelangelo's outpourings. It's a mix of plagiarism and straw men. What's good isn't original and what's original isn't good.Alan Fox
October 25, 2022
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How is drawing our attention to Otangelo’s modus operandi uncivil or childish?
Because it is irrelevant. The MO of the anti ID person is to focus on some trivial irrelevant detail while failing to engage in the substance of an argument. The above is an example. So the comment above is actually very childish while making an uncivil irrelevant accusation about someone. Aside: I have no idea of Otangelo's religious beliefs. However, his scientific beliefs should be based on whether they are justified or not. For example, we get this irrelevant comment
There is no substance to Otelangelo’s outpourings. It’s a mix of plagiarism and straw men. What’s good isn’t original and what’s original isn’t good.
So what isn't good or a straw man? I am interested in what may be erroneous. That would be the way to educate Otangelo since he is obviously monitoring this thread. Aside2: immediate confirmation of my observation about anti ID commenters.jerry
October 25, 2022
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So rather than contribute to a conversation, all you have to do is supply someone else’s opinion or critique of the person in question and declare job done.
Otangelo doesn't do conversation. I think people should be aware that his routine has been repeated in numerous venues on many occasions. It saves time so that people who are unaware of his history don't have to start from scratch.Alan Fox
October 25, 2022
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From the The Great Courses' course on Physics and Philosophy.
You might think that aesthetics, the study of beauty, which largely focuses on questions related to art, has nothing to do with physics. But you would be wrong. One of my favorite Einstein stories concerns when word of Arthur Eddington's confirmation of general relativity arrived by telegram. It was given to Einstein who read it and with a completely flat affect handed it to a graduate student who was in the office. She realized that this was momentous news, yet Einstein was not excited. Baffled, she asked him what his reaction would have been if the result had been otherwise, falsifying his theory. His response was "I would have pity for the dear Lord, the theory is right" Why was Einstein certain that he had the right answer regardless what God thought? Because the theory was too beautiful to be wrong. Beauty, elegance, coherence, symmetry-these are marks of truth in physics. And Einstein is not the only one who argues this. And I'm not only speaking of Keats who wrote, "Beauty is truth, truth beauty that is all ye know on Earth and all ye need to know. "
The reason why so many people including scientists believe in Darwin's theory of Evolution is that it is simple and elegant at the same time and explains everything. So obviously true! Before, someone recites the thousands of reasons why it is not true, whoever does is fighting a loosing battle. I agree it's nonsense but nevertheless everyone believes it. So seek some other way to undermine it. Just ranting against natural selection doesn't get it done.jerry
October 25, 2022
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Af, So rather than contribute to a conversation, all you have to do is supply someone else’s opinion or critique of the person in question and declare job done. Understood.BobSinclair
October 25, 2022
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