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It’s all about information, Professor Feser

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Over at his blog, Professor Edward Feser has been writing a multi-part critique of Professor Alex Rosenberg’s bestselling book, The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: Enjoying Life without Illusions. Rosenberg is an unabashed defender of scientism, an all-out reductionist who doesn’t believe in a “self”, doesn’t believe we have thoughts that are genuinely about anything, and doesn’t believe in free will or morality. Instead, he advocates what he calls “nice nihilism.” In the last line of his book, Rosenberg advises his readers to “Take a Prozac or your favorite serotonin reuptake inhibitor, and keep taking them till they kick in.”

Edward Feser has done an excellent job of demolishing Rosenberg’s arguments, and if readers want to peruse his posts from start to finish, they can read them all here:

Part One
Part Two
Part Three
Part Four
Part Five
Part Six

Professor Rosenberg’s argument that Darwinism is incompatible with God

In his latest installment, Professor Feser takes aim at an argument put forward by Rosenberg, that Darwinism is incompatible with the idea that God is omniscient. In his reply to Rosenberg, Feser also takes a swipe at Intelligent Design, about which I’ll have more to say below. In the meantime, let’s have a look at Rosenberg’s argument against theistic evolution.

Rosenberg argues as follows: Darwinian processes, being non-teleological, do not aim at the generation of any particular kind of species, including the human species. What’s more, these processes contain a built-in element of irreducible randomness: variation. Mutations are random, and no one could have known in advance that evolution would go the way it did. Therefore if God had used such processes as a means of creating us, He could not have known that they would be successful, and therefore He would not be omniscient.

In his response, Feser criticizes Professor Rosenberg’s argument on several grounds, arguing that:

(i) belief in the God of classical theism does not logically entail that the emergence of the human race was an event planned by Him (i.e. God might have intentionally made the cosmos, but we might have been an accident);

(ii) God may have intended that the universe should contain rational beings (who possess the ability to reason by virtue of their having immortal souls) without intending that these beings should be human beings, with the kind of body that Homo sapiens possesses – hence our bodies may be the result of an accidental process;

(iii) if you believe in the multiverse (which Feser doesn’t but Rosenberg does), it is perfectly consistent to hold that while the evolution of Homo sapiens may have been improbable in any particular universe, nevertheless it would have been inevitable within some universe; and

(iv) in any case, the probabilistic nature of Darwinian processes does not rule out divine intervention.

Professor Feser’s big beef with Rosenberg’s argument: Divine causality is of a different order from that of natural causes

But Professor Feser’s chief objection to Rosenberg’s anti-theistic argument is that it ignores the distinction between Divine and creaturely causality. At this point, Feser takes pains to distinguish his intellectual position from that of the Intelligent Design movement. He remarks: “What Aristotelian-Thomistic critics of ID fundamentally object to is ID’s overly anthropomorphic conception of God and its implicit confusion of primary and secondary causality.” (I should point out in passing that Intelligent Design is a scientific program, and as such, it makes no claim to identify the Designer. Nevertheless, many Intelligent Design proponents would be happy to refer to this Designer as God.)

God, argues Feser, is like the author of a book. Intelligent natural agents (e.g. human beings) are the characters in the story, while sub-intelligent agents correspond to the everyday processes described within the story. The key point here is that God is outside the book that He creates and maintains in existence (i.e. the cosmos), while we are inside it. God’s causality is therefore of an entirely different order from that of creatures. To say that God intervened in the history of life in order to guarantee that Homo sapiens would emerge (as Rosenberg seems to think that believers in God-guided evolution are bound to believe) is tantamount to treating God like one of the characters in His own story. In Feser’s words, it “is like saying that the author of a novel has to ‘intervene’ in the story at key points, keeping events from going the way they otherwise would in order to make sure that they turn out the way he needs them to for the story to work.” In reality, authors don’t need to intervene into their stories to obtain the outcomes they want, and neither need we suppose that God intervened in the history of life on Earth, so as to guarantee the emergence of human beings.

Feser then argues that things in the world derive their being and causal power from God, just as the characters in a story only exist and alter the course of events within the story because the author of the story wrote it in a way that allows them to do so. For this reason, Feser has no philosophical problem with the notion of Darwinian processes being sufficient to generate life, or biological species such as Homo sapiens. Causal agents possesss whatever powers God wants them to have, and their (secondary) causality is genuine, and perfectly compatible with the (primary) causality of God, their Creator. Just as “it would be absurd to suggest that in a science fiction novel in which such-and-such a species evolves, it is not really Darwinian processes that generate the species, but rather the author of the story who does so and merely made it seem as if Darwinian processes had done it,” so too, “it is absurd to suggest that if God creates a world in which human beings come about by natural selection, He would have to intervene in order to make the Darwinian processes come out the way He wants them to, in which case they would not be truly Darwinian.”

The problem isn’t one of insufficient causal power in Nature; it’s all about information

When I read this passage, I thought, “Aha! Now I see why Professor Feser thinks Intelligent Design proponents have got the wrong end of the stick. Now I see why he thinks we are committed to belief in a tinkering Deity who has to intervene in the natural order in order to change it.” For Feser inadvertently revealed two very interesting things in his thought-provoking post.

The first thing that Professor Feser inadvertently revealed was that he thinks that the difficulty that Intelligent Design proponents have with Darwinian evolution has to do with power – in particular, the causal powers of natural agents. As an Aristotelian-Thomist, Feser sees no difficulty in principle with God granting natural agents whatever causal powers He wishes, so long as they are not powers that only a Creator could possess. Why could not God therefore give mud the power to evolve into microbes, and thence into biological species such as Homo sapiens?

But the problem that Intelligent Design advocates have with this scenario has nothing to do with the powers of causal agents. Rather, it’s all about information: complex specified information, to be precise. By definition, any pattern in Nature that is highly improbable (from a naturalistic perspective) but is nevertheless capable of being described in a few words, instantiates complex specified information (CSI). So the philosophical question we need to address here is not: could God give mud the power to evolve into microbes and thence into the body of a man, but rather: could God give mud the complex specified information required for it to evolve into microbes and thence into the body of a man?

The answer to this question, as Edward Feser should be aware from having read Professor Michael Behe’s book, The Edge of Evolution (Free Press, 2007, pp. 238-239), is that Intelligent Design theory is perfectly compatible with such front-loading scenarios. Indeed, Behe argues that God might have fine-tuned the initial conditions of the universe at the Big Bang, in such a way that life’s subsequent evolution – and presumably that of human beings – was inevitable, without the need for any subsequent acts of God.

A second possibility is that God added complex specified information to the universe at some point (or points) subsequent to the Big Bang – e.g. at the dawn of life, or the Cambrian explosion – thereby guaranteeing the results He intended.

A third possibility is that the universe contains hidden laws, as yet unknown to science, which are very detailed, highly elaborate and specific, unlike the simple laws of physics that we know. On this scenario, complex specified information belongs to the very warp and woof of the universe: it’s a built-in feature, requiring no initial fine-tuning.

Personally, my own inclination is to plump for the second scenario, and say that we live in a cosmos which is made to be manipulated: it’s an inherently incomplete, open system, and the “gaps” are a vital part of Nature, just as the holes are a vital feature of Swiss cheese. I see no reason to believe in the existence of hidden, information-rich laws of the cosmos, especially when all the laws we know are low in information content; moreover, as Dr. Stephen Meyer has pointed out in his book, Signature in the Cell, all the scientific evidence we have points against the idea of “biochemical predestination”: simple chemicals do not naturally arrange themselves into complex information-bearing molecules such as DNA. I also think that front-loading the universe at the Big Bang would have required such an incredibly exquisite amount of fine-tuning on God’s part that it would have been much simpler for Him to “inject” complex specified information into the cosmos at a later date, when it was required. (When I say “at a later date”, I mean “later” from our time-bound perspective, of course, as the God of classical theism is timeless.) However, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Complex specified information has to come from somewhere

One thing I’m quite sure of, though: not even God could make a universe without finely-tuned initial conditions and without information-rich laws, that was still capable of generating life without any need for a special act of God (or what Intelligent Design critics derogatorily refer to as “Divine intervention”, “manipulation” or “tinkering”). The reason why this couldn’t happen is that complex specified information doesn’t come from nowhere. It needs a source. And this brings me to the second point that Professor Feser inadvertently revealed in his post: he seems to think that information can just appear in the cosmos wherever God wants it to appear, without God having to perform any specific act that generates it.

This is where the book metaphor leads Feser astray, I believe. The author of a book doesn’t have to specify exactly how the events in his/her story unfold. All stories written by human authors are under-specified, in terms of both the states of affairs they describe – e.g. what’s the color of the house at 6 Privet Drive, next door to Harry Potter’s house? – and in terms of the processes occurring within the story – e.g. how exactly do magic wands do their work in Harry Potter? What law is involved? J. K. Rowling doesn’t tell us these things, and I don’t think most of her readers care, anyway.

But here’s the thing: God can’t afford to be vague about such matters. He’s not just writing a story; He’s making a world. Everything that He brings about in this world, He has to specify in some way: what happens, and how does it happen?

One way in which God could bring about a result He desires is by specifying the initial conditions in sufficient detail, such that the result is guaranteed to arise, given the ordinary course of events.

A second way for God to bring about a result He wants is for Him to specify the exact processes generating the result, in such detail that its subsequent production is bound to occur. (On this scenario, God brings about His desired effect through the operation of deterministic laws.)

A third way for God to produce a desired effect is for Him to make use of processes that do not infallibly yield a set result – i.e. probabilistic occurrences, which take place in accordance with indeterministic laws, and which involve a certain element of what we call randomness. In this case, God would not only have to specify the probabilistic processes He intends to make use of, but also specify the particular outcome He desires these processes to generate. (This could be accomplished by God without Him having to bias the probabilities of the processes in any way: all that is needed is top-down causation, which leaves the micro-level probabilistic processes intact but imposes an additional macro-level constraint on the outcome. For a description of how this would work, see my recent post, Is free will dead?)

Finally, God may refuse to specify any natural process or set of initial conditions that could help to generate the result He desires, and instead, simply specify the precise spatio-temporal point in the history of the cosmos.at which the result will occur. That’s what we call an act of God, and in such a case, the result is said to be brought about purely by God’s will, which acts as an immediate efficient cause generating the effect.

But whatever the way in which God chooses to bring about the result He desires, He must make a choice. He cannot simply specify the effect He desires, without specifying its cause – whether it be His Will acting immediately on Nature to bring about a desired effect, or some natural process and/or set of conditions operating in a manner that tends to generate the effect. Whatever God does, God has to do somehow.

But couldn’t God make evolution occur as a result of a probabilistic process?

Let’s go back to the third way available to God for generating a desired result: namely, working through probabilistic processes. What does Intelligent Design theory have to say about this Divine modus operandi? Basically, what it says is that it is impossible for God to remain hidden, if He chooses this way of acting, and if the desired effect is both improbable (in the normal course of events) and capable of being described very briefly – in other words, rich in complex specified information. For even if the micro-level probabilities are in no way affected by His agency, the macro-level effect constitutes a pattern in Nature which we can recognize as the work of an intelligent agent, since it is rich in CSI.

Professor Feser, working from his authorial metaphor for God, seems to have overlooked this point. The human author of a story can simply write: “Y occurred, as a freakish but statistically possible result of process X.” Here, the author simply specifies the result he/she intends (effect Y) and the process responsible (probabilistic process X, which, as luck would have it, produced Y). Because the effect in the story (Y) is both the result of a natural process (X) occurring in the story, and the result (on a higher level) of the author’s will, it appears that nothing more needs to be said. Feser seems to think that the same holds true for effects brought about by God, working through probabilistic processes: they are both the work of Nature and the work of God. Hence, he believes, nothing prevents God from producing life by a Darwinistic process, if He so chooses.

Not so fast, say Intelligent Design proponents. Probabilistic processes have no inherent tendency to generate outcomes that can be concisely described in language. If an outcome that can be described in a very concise manner is generated by a probabilistic process, and if the likelihood of the outcome is sufficiently low, then it is simply wrong to put this down to the work of Nature. The real work here is done by God, the Intelligent Agent Who specified the outcome in question. It’s fundamentally wrong to give any credit to the natural probabilistic process for the result obtained, in a case like this: for even if God works through such a process, the process itself has no tendency to aim for concisely describable outcomes. God-guided evolution is therefore by definition non-Darwinian. Contrary to Feser, it is not absurd for Intelligent Design proponents to argue that when “such-and-such a species evolves, it is not really Darwinian processes that generate the species,” since Darwinian processes are inherently incapable of generating large amounts of complex specific information, and when we trace the evolution of any species back far enough, we will find that large amounts of complex specific information had to be generated.

Putting it another way: not even God could make an unintelligent natural process with a built-in tendency to hone in on outcomes having a short verbal description. Such a feat is logically impossible, because it would be tantamount to making an unintelligent process capable of making linguistic choices – which is absurd, because language is a hallmark of intelligent agents. Not even God can accomplish that which is logically imposible.

I hope Professor Feser now recognizes what the real point at issue is between Darwinism and Intelligent Design theory. I hope he also realizes that Intelligent Design is not committed to an anthropomorphic Deity, or to any particular Divine modus operandi. ID proponents are well aware of the distinction between primary and secondary causality; we just don’t think it’s very useful in addressing the problem of where the complex specified information in Nature came from. The problem here is not one of finding a primary (or secondary) cause that can generate the information, but rather one of finding an intelligent agent that can do so. Lastly, ID proponents do not think of God as a “tinkerer who cleverly intervenes in a natural order that could in principle have carried on without him,” for the simple reason that Intelligent Design is a scientific program concerned with the detection of patterns in Nature that are the result of intelligent agency, and not a metaphysical program concerned with the being of Nature as such. Metaphysical arguments that Nature depends for its being on God are all well and good, but they’re not scientific arguments as such. For this reason, these metaphysical arguments fall outside the province of Intelligent Design, although they are highly regarded by some ID proponents.

Is Variation Random?

Finally, I’d like to challenge the claim made by Professor Rosenberg and other Darwinists that biological variation is random. Stephen Talbott has skilfully dismantled this claim in a highly original article in The New Atlantis, entitled, Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness. Talbott takes aim at the oft-heard claim, popularized by Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, that Nature operates with no purpose in mind, and that evolution is the outcome of random variation, culled by the non-random but mindless mechanism of natural selection. Talbott’s scientific arguments against Dawkins and Dennett are devastating, and he makes a convincing scientific case that mutation is anything but random in real life; that the genomes of organisms respond to environmental changes in a highly co-ordinated and purposeful fashion; and that even the most minimal definition of random variation – i.e. the commonly held view that the chance that a specific mutation will occur is not affected by how useful that mutation would be – crumbles upon inspection, as the whole concept of “usefulness” or “fitness” turns out to be irretrievably obscure. At the end of his article, Talbott summarizes his case:

Here, then, is what the advocates of evolutionary mindlessness and meaninglessness would have us overlook. We must overlook, first of all, the fact that organisms are masterful participants in, and revisers of, their own genomes, taking a leading position in the most intricate, subtle, and intentional genomic “dance” one could possibly imagine. And then we must overlook the way the organism responds intelligently, and in accord with its own purposes, to whatever it encounters in its environment, including the environment of its own body, and including what we may prefer to view as “accidents.” Then, too, we are asked to ignore not only the living, reproducing creatures whose intensely directed lives provide the only basis we have ever known for the dynamic processes of evolution, but also all the meaning of the larger environment in which these creatures participate — an environment compounded of all the infinitely complex ecological interactions that play out in significant balances, imbalances, competition, cooperation, symbioses, and all the rest, yielding the marvelously varied and interwoven living communities we find in savannah and rainforest, desert and meadow, stream and ocean, mountain and valley. And then, finally, we must be sure to pay no heed to the fact that the fitness, against which we have assumed our notion of randomness could be defined, is one of the most obscure, ill-formed concepts in all of science.

Overlooking all this, we are supposed to see — somewhere — blind, mindless, random, purposeless automatisms at the ultimate explanatory root of all genetic variation leading to evolutionary change….

This “something random” … is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” A faith that fills the ever-shrinking gaps in our knowledge of the organism with a potent meaninglessness capable of transforming everything else into an illusion is a faith that could benefit from some minimal grounding. Otherwise, we can hardly avoid suspecting that the importance of randomness in the minds of the faithful is due to its being the only presumed scrap of a weapon in a compulsive struggle to deny all the obvious meaning of our lives.

My response to Rosenberg

I would like to briefly respond to Professor Rosenberg’s argument that belief in God is incompatible with Darwinism. He is right about one thing: not even God can use randomness to bring about highly specific results, without “injecting” the complex specified information that guarantees the production of the result in question. If you’re a thoroughgoing Darwinist who believes that evolutionary variation is inherently random and that Nature is a closed system, then there’s no way for God to do His work. However, on an empirical level, I see no reason to believe that evolutionary variation is inherently random: Talbott’s article, from which I quoted above, cites evidence that the effects of environmental change on an organism’s genome are highly co-ordinated by the organism itself. What’s more, recent scientific evidence that even the multiverse must have had a beginning, and that even the multiverse must have been exquisitely fine-tuned, points very strongly to the fact that Nature is not a closed system. (See my article, Vilenkin’s verdict: “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning”, which also contains links to my recent posts on cosmological fine-tuning.) And of course, Professor Feser has done an excellent job of expounding the metaphysical arguments showing that Nature is not self-sufficient, but requires a Cause.

Comments
Sigh: I see the Chesil beach example that was cogently answered almost a year ago, has been recycled; as though this has not been long since dealt with more than adequately, and with the same interlocutor. The answer to it is simple: this is not a complex, specified -- and especially functionally specified -- result, it is a physically caused sorting by size known to be driven by the mechanical forces at work. In the Chi_500 simplified metric, we have low contingency under the circumstances, so Ip --> 0. Chi_500(chesil) = [~ 0]*S - 500 --> - 500, i.e. well clear of the zone in which one would infer design. (And that holds before we consider whether S is 1 or 0. S is a don't care in this case. (FYI, for S to go to 1, we need high contingency AND confinement to a narrow, functional zone in the space of possibilities, e.g. text in this and other posts. There is no high contingency due to the mechanical action, and so S will be 0. Of course if someone comes to the beach and modifies it by imposing a different pattern with a fleet of dredges, that would be a different situation and would be artificially induced.]) (That is, there is a mechanical reason why the stones are sorted by size from one end to the other, so that in the days of smugglers they could tell where they were along the beach at night by the size of the pebbles underfoot.) If one wishes to argue, the size of pebbles codes where you are on the beach, not so at all. The size of pebbles -- thanks to the cluster of mechanical effects at work -- is functionally [mathematical sense] tied to position along the beach. This is an effect driven by causal forces, not a code of symbols and rules. It is we who come along and turn this into a function that can be calibrated to distance along the beach. And, that is what would be informational, and of course is intelligently produced. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 3, 2012
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Oh, and what is really very bizarre, and I must just point it out, that at no time have I every disagreed that Shapiro's work is refreshing and exciting! Not only that, but I've said it's an approach I've been advocating for some time. Which is why I've been following his papers - and why I ordered his book!!!!Elizabeth Liddle
February 3, 2012
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How you could be sure that a reply to a book which you have not read is “devastating” is beyond me. I guess that Arts and Science people think differently. In the Arts we are expected to have read the books that we condemn, not to dismiss them on the basis of someone else’s criticism. I thought it was the same in Science, but perhaps I am misinformed. Please do instruct me on how scientists feel about secondhand dismissals.
Because I was talking about a reply to an argument, not a reply to a book. Yes, that is different from the arts. Science is much more telegraphic, and if there's an error, it's an error, whether or not the other arguments are correct. In that sense it's more like math. And I'm neither applauding nor condemning ERV's manner. It's certainly not my style, but again, if someone points out a math error in my work, then the manner in which it is done is irrelevant - what would matter to me would be whether it is in fact an error, not how rudely it was pointed out. As eigenstate says, that's the great thing about science. Rudeness and incivility may be regrettable, but ultimately they are irrelevant. What matters is whether you are right. It probably makes us rather thickskinned actually. I don't take offense very easily (contrary to your impression!) and often completely fail to notice ruderies if someone is making what seems to be a valid point. Or, an invalid one, for that matter - all I see see is the argument. The one thing that does bug me, though, is the accusation of dishonesty, or lack of integrity. That seems to undermine the whole basis of discourse. Not that you did it, but "tribal" came close :) As for whether you have debated me on substance: perhaps you have; if so I apologise (I am not very good at remembering who I've had exchanges with, I'm afraid). But let's get this personal stuff out of the way, and if that means a break, then so be it. I really have got a rather large basketful of ironing that I am averting my gaze from. And then there's that book.... Cheers LizzieElizabeth Liddle
February 3, 2012
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Well, I’ve just discovered part of the problem: The Lenski I am talking about is the Lenski who has been growing bacteria in test tubes for the past 20 or 30 years and recording his results. The Lenski you are talking about is this one: “Lenski showed that neither of these claims were true, by demonstrating in a model which used random variation and natural selection to evolve, from a starting population of virtual organisms that could do nothing except reproduce,” Huh? “Virtual organisms?” I’m scratching my head. Bacteria reproducing in test tubes are not “virtual organisms.” Are we talking about the same Lenski? Either Lenski conducted two different kinds of investigations, one with computer models and virtual organisms, and one with real bacteria, or we are talking about two different Lenskis. If it is the former, I don’t ever recall Behe mentioning the part about virtual organisms. If Behe did discuss Lenski’s work on virtual organisms and I didn’t catch it, I apologize to you for misreading Behe and then being angry with you because of my misreading. If Behe didn’t, now you know that we were talking at cross purposes. My point was that none of the bacteria produced by Lenski destroyed Behe’s argument. The changes that Lenski did observe were mostly trivial, and even the changes that were non-trivial were still relatively small and well within what Behe’s argument would expect of Darwinian processes. Behe doesn’t argue that Darwinian processes can do *nothing* (indeed, he is less hard on them than Margulis is); he just thinks they can’t do the heavy lifting claimed for them. Whether any Lenski computer simulation using virtual organisms destroyed Behe’s argument, I cannot say, because I simply don’t know what computer simulation you are talking about. All of my objections to you about Lenski were based on my assumption that you were talking about the bacteria grown in the test tubes. As far as I know, bacteriology isn’t your field, so I couldn’t understand how you could be qualified to judge how much change in these critters would falsify Behe’s arguments.
Both Lenskis are the same man: http://myxo.css.msu.edu/ResearchInterests.html
I have no idea what programming a “learning model” means. A model of *what* learning *what*? Of autistic children learning to count? Of adults learning a foreign language? Of rats learning how to select the door with the cheese? I can think of all kinds of “learning models” which wouldn’t have anything to do with the operation of biological evolution, even if “learning” is used in a broad sense which completely removes the subjective element I associate with the word. Is this “learning model” you have written published on-line? And if so, where? And if not, what journal is it in? (I presume, given your understanding of peer review, that you would never publish it in a book!) What volume and number and pages?
It's a simple learning model of inhibitory control, of relevance to children with ADHD. Learning models and evolutionary models are very similar, which is why I find the distinction between "evolutionary processes" and "intelligence" somewhat moot. Darwinian mechanisms are essentially, trial-and-error learning mechanisms. If you are really interested, the reference is here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19409540 Yes, it is peer-reviewed. No, as I've said, I don't have any problems with books. My husband published a very good book on the neuroscience of mental disorders. And I have the beginnings of a draft of a mind-brain book myself.
As for the rest, maybe I’m getting old and cranky, but my attitude has changed from that of a couple of years ago. I used to enjoy the idea of “combat by proxy,” where the hobbyist disciples of ID people and the hobbyist disciples of the Darwinians would wage battle on the internet. I no longer do. Far too often, on both sides, the hobbyist disciples don’t get the arguments of their masters right, or haven’t even read them carefully. Far too often, the two sides can’t even agree on terms, like “Darwinian” or “learning” or “intelligence” or “intervention.”
I agree that this is problem. It's why I'm picky about definitions - not to prescribe them, but to establish what the user means by them. A huge amount of "talking past the other" arises from misunderstanding of the other's usage, or from either inadvertent or even deliberate equivocation. That thicket of brambles needs to be cleared before real progress can be made in a discussion, but it often creates a lot of tension in the process.
And of course, pseudonymity allows for irresponsible behavior on all sides. And finally, for the most part, the targets of all the debating — Miller and Ayala and Behe and Dembski and Wells and Denton and Sternberg — aren’t even reading what is said about them or their books on these blogs.
Yes, that's why I use my real name. Not to assert authority but because I want to be as straightforward as possible in a murky environment.
I’d rather see direct criticism of the big players, written by people who use their real names, and published in places that have some literary and scientific standards (though not necessarily peer-reviewed academic journals). And I’d like to see the criticism substantiated by equations, diagrams, lab results, etc., produced by the critic, not regurgitated from the work of other researchers, or worse, from other blog sites. And I’d like to see the big boys (Miller, Behe, Dawkins, Dembski, etc.) reply to such criticisms.
Yes indeed. There are certainly plenty of critiques out there, signed, and some replies. I don't find the replies convincing, and often they have to be googled for. It would be good to gather them in one place. Perhaps I'll start a list of links on my blog, and people can supplement it. It would be a useful resource.
This is why I’m thinking of abandoning all internet conversations such as this. It’s a sink hole for time, and it produces no critical work that will ever be taken note of outside a circle of a few thousand hobbyists around the world. I’m not sure that all the debating on TalkOrigins, Biologos and here, in the long run, contributes anything to scientific knowledge, or amounts to anything more than a huge debate between Stooge fans about whether Shemp or Curly is superior.
Ah, cheer up, it's not that bad :) We are all learning here, right?
Twice now you have made the suggestion that you might not be the person you are representing yourself to be. I don’t mind pseudonymity — people have to protect themselves, especially ID people, who, unlike atheist Darwinists and theistic evolutionists, have lost jobs and careers in secular universities for their views. But I don’t like misrepresentation. If you *are* just a spotty teenager, or anything other than the professor with your name who has a web site at a British university, I’d like you to declare it now.
Well, I'm not a professor, but that is my real name, and I am an author on the paper I just linked to. I'm also, if you care, the same Elizabeth Liddle that pops up in most entries if you google Elizabeth Liddle viol, Elizabeth Liddle author, or, for my sins, Elizabeth Liddle exit polls. My point was simply that you only have my word here for that, and that on the internet, you cannot argue from authority, because you cannot prove authority - you have to argue on the merits of your argument. It's why I like it :)
I’m not asking you to divulge your real identity if you are someone else, but just to say if you are or are not the 59-year-old professor described on the web site. Obviously if you are not that professor, much of my criticism is misplaced, though I would not apologize for it, since I was deliberately misled by a false identity. If you are that professor, however, I stand by what I said. The field of that professor is such that the amount of time you are spending here and elsewhere debating evolutionary biology on the internet is in my opinion incompatible with doing a responsible job in the academic position for which a full-time salary is being paid. And now you can tell me to mind my own business for a third time. It’s the last time you’ll have to tell me.
Well, that's your judgement of course. However, the fact is that I do my job with such dedication that I am rarely away from my computer, and I use my time while my stuff is running to chatter about stuff on the internet. I'd be better getting some fresh air (although I do, generally, cycle to work) or cooking more nutritious food, or ironing the horrible pile of clothes in the basket, or washing the dishes. mea culpa. Or even buying some new clothes or having my hair cut, or playing my viol. But I like thinking, and the internet community has proven a great place for me to bat ideas around. I'd never have written that paper if I hadn't learned about evolutionary models as learning algorithsm from, as it happens, long running thread at the old IIDB forum between a Behe fan and a GA expert, on Lenski's AVIDA. It was a fascinating thread. The GA expert (aka RBH at Panda's Thumb) downloaded AVIDA and did lots of test runs under different conditions. That's why I know so much about AVIDA, and indeed, about Behe (who at one point engaged in dialogue with the IDist IIRC).
Yes, you may go now. I’m going, too.
Go well, and be well :) LizzieElizabeth Liddle
February 3, 2012
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Elizabeth: I wasn't initially thinking about anyone in particular, but it seems to me that Abbie Smith would be a good example of the generic case that I was talking about. And since you have raised her case, I will comment. You are missing the main point about the exchange between her and Behe. The main point is that her public behavior *did not warrant the dignity of a reply*. It would *not* be tolerated in any peer-reviewed journal, at any scientific conference, etc. (And "feisty" is not the word for her behavior; "obnoxious" is. Nor did her behavior warrant the term "lady," for that matter.) By replying to an *enfant terrible*, one encourages *enfant terrible* behavior. That was why Behe was right not to reply to her for so long. In the end, he relented, and replied to her, but only because his friends urged him to, lest anyone should suppose he was unable to answer. That doesn't change the fact that, in terms of the dignity of scientific culture, she wasn't entitled to an answer until she first apologized to a man who was her senior both in age and in scientific accomplishment. If you disagree with me on this, we have very different ideas about how scientific culture and academic culture should operate, how students (including clever graduate students) should treat professors, and how younger people should treat older people. I won't debate this, any more than I would debate the rightness of cannibalism or slavery. I do not know whether you have read Behe's reply to Abbie Smith or not. If you have not, you should be able to find it here on UD, in the cache of Behe's replies (formerly on Amazon) to his *Edge of Evolution* critics. I read both her criticism and Behe's reply. (And of course I read the book thoroughly before reading either.) I don't claim to be competent in virology, but it certainly didn't seem to me that her critique was "devastating," especially since, if you have read *The Edge of Evolution* (and you have admitted that you haven't), Behe spent far less time discussing viruses (which was her field) than discussing malaria (which was his). He could be entirely wrong about viruses, and the main argument of the book could still be correct. How you could be sure that a reply to a book which you have not read is "devastating" is beyond me. I guess that Arts and Science people think differently. In the Arts we are expected to have read the books that we condemn, not to dismiss them on the basis of someone else's criticism. I thought it was the same in Science, but perhaps I am misinformed. Please do instruct me on how scientists feel about secondhand dismissals. It is ridiculous for you to say, "all your responses to me have been about credentials and style, not substance." You and I have debated for months now, and only recently have I focused on credentials and style. Before that, we discussed at length specific ideas of Behe, Shapiro, Margulis, etc., specific positions of various school boards and the NCSE, the history of evolutionary theory, and many other things. I prefer discussing substance to credentials and style. But you have constantly made remarks about your level of knowledge of various scientific subjects, at least some of which, according to your own biographical self-description, are not part of your training, and thus you raised in my mind the question of credentials. However, I don't wish to make any bigger deal of credentials than I have already indicated, and I'm content to drop my complaint on that score as non-productive. I think we need to take a break for a while now. I'm glad you are going to read Shapiro's book. I hope you will absorb the full force of what he understands himself to be doing. I think he's a breath of fresh air to evolutionary thinking. If I were young enough to go back and study evolutionary biology at Chicago, I would try to do my graduate research under him rather than under Jerry Coyne. T.Timaeus
February 3, 2012
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Well, I've just discovered part of the problem: The Lenski I am talking about is the Lenski who has been growing bacteria in test tubes for the past 20 or 30 years and recording his results. The Lenski you are talking about is this one: "Lenski showed that neither of these claims were true, by demonstrating in a model which used random variation and natural selection to evolve, from a starting population of virtual organisms that could do nothing except reproduce," Huh? "Virtual organisms?" I'm scratching my head. Bacteria reproducing in test tubes are not "virtual organisms." Are we talking about the same Lenski? Either Lenski conducted two different kinds of investigations, one with computer models and virtual organisms, and one with real bacteria, or we are talking about two different Lenskis. If it is the former, I don't ever recall Behe mentioning the part about virtual organisms. If Behe did discuss Lenski's work on virtual organisms and I didn't catch it, I apologize to you for misreading Behe and then being angry with you because of my misreading. If Behe didn't, now you know that we were talking at cross purposes. My point was that none of the bacteria produced by Lenski destroyed Behe's argument. The changes that Lenski did observe were mostly trivial, and even the changes that were non-trivial were still relatively small and well within what Behe's argument would expect of Darwinian processes. Behe doesn't argue that Darwinian processes can do *nothing* (indeed, he is less hard on them than Margulis is); he just thinks they can't do the heavy lifting claimed for them. Whether any Lenski computer simulation using virtual organisms destroyed Behe's argument, I cannot say, because I simply don't know what computer simulation you are talking about. All of my objections to you about Lenski were based on my assumption that you were talking about the bacteria grown in the test tubes. As far as I know, bacteriology isn't your field, so I couldn't understand how you could be qualified to judge how much change in these critters would falsify Behe's arguments. I have no idea what programming a "learning model" means. A model of *what* learning *what*? Of autistic children learning to count? Of adults learning a foreign language? Of rats learning how to select the door with the cheese? I can think of all kinds of "learning models" which wouldn't have anything to do with the operation of biological evolution, even if "learning" is used in a broad sense which completely removes the subjective element I associate with the word. Is this "learning model" you have written published on-line? And if so, where? And if not, what journal is it in? (I presume, given your understanding of peer review, that you would never publish it in a book!) What volume and number and pages? As for the rest, maybe I'm getting old and cranky, but my attitude has changed from that of a couple of years ago. I used to enjoy the idea of "combat by proxy," where the hobbyist disciples of ID people and the hobbyist disciples of the Darwinians would wage battle on the internet. I no longer do. Far too often, on both sides, the hobbyist disciples don't get the arguments of their masters right, or haven't even read them carefully. Far too often, the two sides can't even agree on terms, like "Darwinian" or "learning" or "intelligence" or "intervention." And of course, pseudonymity allows for irresponsible behavior on all sides. And finally, for the most part, the targets of all the debating -- Miller and Ayala and Behe and Dembski and Wells and Denton and Sternberg -- aren't even reading what is said about them or their books on these blogs. I'd rather see direct criticism of the big players, written by people who use their real names, and published in places that have some literary and scientific standards (though not necessarily peer-reviewed academic journals). And I'd like to see the criticism substantiated by equations, diagrams, lab results, etc., produced by the critic, not regurgitated from the work of other researchers, or worse, from other blog sites. And I'd like to see the big boys (Miller, Behe, Dawkins, Dembski, etc.) reply to such criticisms. This is why I'm thinking of abandoning all internet conversations such as this. It's a sink hole for time, and it produces no critical work that will ever be taken note of outside a circle of a few thousand hobbyists around the world. I'm not sure that all the debating on TalkOrigins, Biologos and here, in the long run, contributes anything to scientific knowledge, or amounts to anything more than a huge debate between Stooge fans about whether Shemp or Curly is superior. Twice now you have made the suggestion that you might not be the person you are representing yourself to be. I don't mind pseudonymity -- people have to protect themselves, especially ID people, who, unlike atheist Darwinists and theistic evolutionists, have lost jobs and careers in secular universities for their views. But I don't like misrepresentation. If you *are* just a spotty teenager, or anything other than the professor with your name who has a web site at a British university, I'd like you to declare it now. I'm not asking you to divulge your real identity if you are someone else, but just to say if you are or are not the 59-year-old professor described on the web site. Obviously if you are not that professor, much of my criticism is misplaced, though I would not apologize for it, since I was deliberately misled by a false identity. If you are that professor, however, I stand by what I said. The field of that professor is such that the amount of time you are spending here and elsewhere debating evolutionary biology on the internet is in my opinion incompatible with doing a responsible job in the academic position for which a full-time salary is being paid. And now you can tell me to mind my own business for a third time. It's the last time you'll have to tell me. Yes, you may go now. I'm going, too. T.Timaeus
February 3, 2012
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Yes I have. It's awesome. Here's a webpage about it: http://www.chesilbeach.org/Chesil/Elizabeth Liddle
February 3, 2012
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Yup and you would use a hammer to tune a piano.
The beach is 28 k long, and 160 m wide, and the stones are graded from pea size at the west end to fist size at the east end.
Have you been there? Have you thoroughly investigated the site?Joe
February 3, 2012
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CSI can be measured and it is a metric. You need to make a case that a calculation/ measurement is required and then you need to tell us why CSI would be the correct tool to use when dealing with your examples.Joe
February 3, 2012
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The CSI calcs. The equation is here: http://www.designinference.com/documents/2005.06.Specification.pdf The beach is 28 k long, and 160 m wide, and the stones are graded from pea size at the west end to fist size at the east end. If we assume a depth of shingle of about 400mm, and a standard deviation at any one point of 1 mm, that should be conservative, and allow us to calculate the number of permutations. I'll post my answer if you post yours. See you at the finish :)Elizabeth Liddle
February 3, 2012
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What, CSI isn't calculable? It's not a metric? Have you told Dembski about this?Elizabeth Liddle
February 3, 2012
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What calcs, Liz?Joe
February 3, 2012
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Nothing to calculate. As I said you don't know what you are talking about.Joe
February 3, 2012
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Bald assertion, Joe. Please calculate for me the CSI of that beach, and demonstrate that it falls below the UBP cutoff. And show your work :)Elizabeth Liddle
February 3, 2012
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No, Elizabeth, you are wrong. That beach is in no way an example of CSI- you don't know what you are talking about. As I said both CSI and the EF are only as good as the user.Joe
February 3, 2012
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Sorry! A McGuffin is a plot element that the narrative is hung on, but isn't, in itself, important; what is important is the narrative itself. So to put it less telegraphically: a Creator God was the plot element I hung my theological narrative on, which included the idea that God is love, God is good, to do right is to do what an all-good, all-just God would require, that God is inspires us to do what is right, yet forgives us when we fail, and various other fairly orthodox attributes of God, including the idea that to give your life for your friends is the highest act of love, and that our duty and our joy is to love our neighbours as ourselves. Then I realised you didn't need to have the Creator God part. Nor indeed the immortal soul part. The narrative still works.Elizabeth Liddle
February 3, 2012
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@Elizabeth 17.1.2.2.2 Oh, okay. Thanks. Though Im not farmiliar with the term mcguffin. I googled it but i still dont understand what you mean by it. In any case, I wouldnt object to the possibility that we are nothing but brains since theism doesnt require any commitment to cartesian dualism and i dont see any conflict either way.kuartus
February 3, 2012
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Well, it's a long story, and the final jump turned out to be a very small one, but a world-rocking one nonetheless. Essentially it was the perception that the Hard Problem of Consciousness wasn't actually Hard at all. In some ways, I retain my old theology, I just lost the "McGuffin" if you like. And my old theology was remarkably orthodox, in the sense that it was that of a theologian I very much respect, although he did not publish much in his lifetime (but I was privileged to hear many of his Sunday sermons), Herbert McCabe. Although in some ways, I may be even closer to McCabe's view than I was then (he was a vigorous non-dualist) - just minus the McGuffin :)Elizabeth Liddle
February 3, 2012
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Just three points, Timaeus, on your interesting response to eigenstate:
There is no entrance exam for being even a columnist on UD, let alone a commenter. You don’t have to prove you know anything about population genetics or computer programming or probability theory or even that you have read any of the books you are arguing vehemently for or against. The place is a free-for-all, where great knowledge and insight are mixed up with ignorance, stupidity, bluffing, and political agendas. And that applies to all camps who write here, not just the ID people.
Exactly. And unlike Eigenstate, I think UD is far better than it was in this regard, in that dissenting views seem much more likely to be retained on the site, if not always welcomed! More to the point, this is why I like the internet - because credentials are not required, and anyone can say what they think and have the argument critiqued on its merits. That is the very point I was trying to make to you in my earlier response.
By (2) I don’t mean by “engaging” that some smart-ass grad student in say, virology (to choose a subject at random), should write a letter to Behe, saying “How can you publish such sophomore crap as science?” I mean entering upon a respectful conversation.
I take it you are thinking of Abbie Smith. She is indeed a smart-ass graduate student, and a feisty lady, but if you think that her argument with Behe amounts to “How can you publish such sophomore crap as science?” you were cut off at the pass by her rude words, and your credentialism. Her argument was substantive and devastating to Behe, and I have not seen an adequate response. It's a shame that her style gave Behe an excuse to ignore the substance, but substance there most certainly was.
My dispute with Elizabeth has a long history. I have corresponded with her for months now, and most of the time, I think, like a grown-up, as you put it. I have never refused to debate any of her points.
Actually, I think you have. For some reason I get up your nose (and I understand, it happens) and as a result, it seems, all your responses to me have been about credentials and style, not substance. I'd be delighted to respond to substantive criticism of my actual arguments. But being told repeatedly that you will not respond to me (despite the fact that you do!) unless I am prepared to publish my critiques in some peer-reviewed journal (despite the fact that most peer-reviewed journals are simply not interested in critiques of non-peer-reviewed science), does, well, get up my nose. So let's either declare a truce, or ignore each other from henceforth eh? Ball's in your court. Peace LizzieElizabeth Liddle
February 3, 2012
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Elizabeth, just out of curiosity, what were these "alternative arguments" that persuaded you against theism and towards atheism? I'd be interested to hear your reasons.kuartus
February 3, 2012
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Timaeus: No gin this morning, a stiff cup of coffee will have to do the trick.
You’re far too easily offended by a little verbal jousting. I said “tribal” with a friendly elbow and a wink. And even if I had meant it aggressively, ID proponents are accused of being things 100 times worse than “tribal” every day. And I haven’t seen you jumping in, here or elsewhere, to say that those denigrations and demonizations are inappropriate.
So the verb conjugates: "I joust; you are far too easily offended", right? You didn't suspect a little levity in my response? My "high dudgeon"? My gin tipple? At at least my joust was at my own expense, not yours. Seriously: no, my responses are not "tribal". The reason I love science is because it's the place where argument and evidence trump, in principle at least, tribal loyalties. It's not perfect, but it's the principle, and the incentives to overturn consensus are far greater than the incentives to prop it up. I remained a theist for half a century not out of tribal loyalty (indeed a changed tribes several times) but out of convictions, and abandoned it despite undoubted feelings of loyalty (and indeed grief) when I found myself persuaded by alternative arguments. So no, I am not tribal. And I repeat: if you dismiss as "tribal" posts that you disagree with you risk massively missing the points being made. As in this case.
As for much of the rest of your post, where you restate your knowledge in this or that area, I’m well aware that you have a high estimation of your own abilities — an estimation which applies, as far as I can tell from your words, not only to the only biological fields in which you have degrees and publications (neuroscience and psychology, I believe), but to evolutionary biology and many other areas of the life sciences and other sciences where you have neither degrees nor publications, but are mainly an autodidact.
No, I don't have a particularly high estimation of my own abilities, but as you keep challenging my competence, I will respond with what I think is a fair and honest estimate. For some bizarre reason you seem to regard willingness to opine on the internet as some indicator of self-esteem, in my case but not in others. Why me? And what is so odd about it anyway? It's not as though (as I've said many times) you can argue from authority on the internet anyway. If you disagree with me, make your argument. Simply accusing me of lacking the authority to hold my opinions is a cop-out, and irrelevant, seeing as I don't claim that authority. I can't. For all you know I might be a spotty eighteen year old in his mum's basement.
I am quite happy to acknowledge that you are a bright autodidact. I think you have a fine mind.
Well, gee thanks.
But you can’t expect me to take seriously your claim to judge between Behe and Lenski, when both of them have spent many more years studying the relevant material than you have. Behe has three degrees in the life sciences as opposed to your one, and more than 35 peer-reviewed publications, outside of his work on ID. He reads the literature on Lenski and related material assiduously. You cannot possibly have read as much of this literature as Behe has — not if you are keeping up with your research and teaching obligations in neuroscience and psychology. So there is no reason for me or anyone else to assume that your decision for Lenski and against Behe is well-grounded. (Especially when I strongly suspect that you have misinterpreted what Behe means by “Darwinian” because of your minimalist definition of that term, which we have recently established.)
Yes, I can expect you to take it seriously. Not because I have credentials or authority, but because I am making an argument. If you disagree with it, post your rebuttal. If you are not competent to disagree with it, and must choose between me and Behe, then by all means choose Behe, but be aware that you are not selecting the better argument, but selecting the more credentialed exponent. Moreoever, examine your criteria when choosing between Behe and Lenski. Both are excellently credentialled - why choose Behe? Unless you are competent to critique both? And if you are competent to critique both, why not critique me? There's nothing wrong with deferring to authority in fields in which one is not competent to judge. But it seems odd to argue that your opponent must be wrong because she lacks authority, if so. If you aren't competent to judge, fine, but that's your problem, not mine.
As far as what you say about evolutionary algorithms, I would not trust it as far as I could throw it. Dembski and Marks have been researching and publishing (and in the case of Marks, teaching) in this area for 10 years, and you don’t have a peer-reviewed article in the field at all. You’re making an amateur judgment. You’ve never written a computer program that models biological evolution, or if you have, you’ve never submitted it to the scientific world for criticism. You know a *bit* about evolutionary biology and a *bit* about computer science, but you have degrees in neither. To do evolutionary algorithms *properly* one needs a lot of knowledge in both fields. That’s not a description of either your formal education or your research record, unless you are hiding something from us. Sorry to be blunt, but it’s true.
How do you know it's true? Because someone with lots of credentials told you? Don't you see the problem here? Instead of tackling my arguments you are shooting at my (alleged) lack of expertise. About which you know, for sure, nothing. If I've said something wrong about evolutionary algorithms, point it out. But if all you are claiming is that I don't have the credentials to know about evolutionary arguments, then your rebuttal is, simply, a fallacious argument from authority. And if you are arguing from authority, then please explain why Lenski, who clearly is adequately credentialed, is wrong, and Behe is right. As it happens I do write evolutionary algorithms, and have had one simple learning model published. But that is entirely irrelevant to my argument. My argument is, simply, that Behe claimed that either Irreducibly Complex functions(i.e. features that would fail to function if any part were removed) could not evolve by means of random variation and natural selection or that features could not evolve by deeply Irreducibly Complex pathways (quantified by the number of non-advantageous steps between the last advantageous step and the function in question). Lenski showed that neither of these claims were true, by demonstrating in a model which used random variation and natural selection to evolve, from a starting population of virtual organisms that could do nothing except reproduce, Irreducibly Complex functions (that would break if you removed any one part) by deeply Irreduciably Complex pathways (pathways that involved many non-advantageous steps and some substantially deleterious ones). In other words, he falsified Behe's theory.
This is not a personal attack. I find you a pleasant, friendly person, much more likeable than 99% of the internet Darwinists I deal with. And as I’ve said, I find you bright. You’re also quite a diverse and interesting person. But I also find you scientifically pretentious, as if you see yourself as a sort of modern Renaissance man, able to comment on a high level on almost anything that has anything to do with science generally and on almost anything in the life sciences in particular.
Are you suggesting that anyone who comments on any field outside their own area of expertise is a "pretender"? How about Dembski, then, who has made a career out of inferring Design from biological structures without so much as a undergraduate degree in biology? Is it some kind of pretentious offense to form an opinion on anything in which you are not qualified, and express it? If so, how does anyone come to a view on either Intelligent Design or anything else (Darwinian evolution?) without higher degrees in biological sciences? I fully confess to being a bit of an intellectual magpie. I love science, and always have, despite having spent most of my life in the arts. I'm a jack-of-all-trades and master of none. I'm not especially proud of it, but it's the way I seem to be built. I'm obviously smart enough to get a degree or two, but so are lots of people. I pretend nothing. And if I express an opinion, I expect it to be critiqued, not for me to be lambasted for lacking an authority I do not (indeed explicitly do not) claim.
I wish you would stop standing in judgment and rendering verdicts. It is this which bothers me, not that you disagree with me, or that you criticize ID, or anything like that.
I see someone standing in judgement and delivering verdicts here, Timaeus, and it isn't me. I respectfully submit that you may be looking in the mirror. Whatever, what you are seeing is not what I am doing.
Finally, to be frank, it puts me off that you claim to be such a good research scientist, but spend so much time blogging. I’ve known many good scientists. A good research scientist is passionately committed to the life of research, and it occupies a huge proportion of the scientist’s time. In addition, scientists who are university teachers should be passionately committed to students, both in the classroom and after hours in the office and in grading and commenting constructively on their work in the office or at home. I think it is irresponsible for anyone to take a salary for teaching and research and spend more than a few hours a week wrangling about evolution on the internet. You could produce three or four scientific articles per year with the time you spend on internet debates with non-scientists and half-scientists. I don’t think serious scientists should be doing that. You don’t see top evolutionary biologists like Allen Orr, Sean Carroll, Eva Jablonka, etc. blogging and debating to the extent that you do. And those scientists who *do* blog and debate extensively — well, check out their record of recent publications in their fields, and compare it with their output before they ventured into culture-war polemics.
I'm sure I do spend too much time blogging. I certainly don't spend enough time washing the dishes.
Go ahead, tell me to mind my own business, but I have strong feelings about the duties of university faculty, and I think you are misusing your time. This is part of the cause of the friction you are feeling from me. I know many very fine scientists and scholars who, despite sterling academic records and substantial publications, never got university positions, and would kill to get one, and, if they got one, would never fritter away so much potential research time for the joys of internet blood sport. I say all of this because you have obviously detected that there is more in my posts than merely scientific disagreement. We have a basic disagreement in attitude, and I wanted to get that out in the open. If, given my feelings, you don’t want me to respond to your posts again, I will respect your wishes by not doing so. But I wanted you to see that my somewhat forceful responses to you are not arbitrary, but have a basis, and what that basis is.
Yes, I will tell you to mind your own business (as I did once before). You are extrapolating beyond the range of your data. However, I am tickled by the spectacle of someone wasting time on the internet getting annoyed at someone else for wasting time on the internet, so I'll forgive you.
I continue to think of you personally in a friendly manner, despite my obvious criticisms of your debating habits and activities.
Can I go now, sir?Elizabeth Liddle
February 3, 2012
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@Timaeus#21,
If anyone finds the presentation of ID here belligerent, confused, or ideological, they have two options: (1) Find the reasonable, moderate people here, whether columnists or commenters, who appear to have actually read ID writings carefully, and argue only with them, ignoring all the rest; (2) Forget about this place, and engage the actual ID leaders in debate.
Those are two options, but not the only ones. There's a pretty noble tradition (from my perspective) that's evolved on this blog, over time, from the critics' side. Because of UD's self-serving and hypocritical "moderation" policies, critics who are high-powered intellectually, expert in relevant areas of discussion, and willing to speak up, will eventually get banned. It doesn't matter how careful they are about tone or decorum. It's the criticism itself that the management will not brook from a single, persistent critic over time. This has created a "stream" of critics, who do not (so far as I can tell) seek out the moderates and responsible IDers, here (neither do they avoid them, though), but instead just go to bat for rigorous scientific thinking. That's not option (1) or (2), but it's a pretty cool phenomenon. Paradoxically, that has made Uncommon Descent a much more valuable resource against creationism than TalkOrigins ever was. Some of the long threads where "Nakashima" really got into a groove, for example, are really extraordinarily good resources on these issues. The (3) option just uses the IDers as a foil (with good will available for those IDers who DO want to engage and debate on points). The UD grinders make an EXCELLENT backdrop for the case against ID, or at least the culture-war, vulgar sectors of the ID movement. I encourage all me friends to read UD regularly, it's an effective "missionary outpost" for both science and atheism. And you don't need to take that as particularly one-sided from me. If you go look up some of the 'mega-threads' that Nakashima and Diffaxial and ROb participated in, there ARE some pretty good representation from the other side, at points. It's hard for me to point to other places on the internet where such "get down on it" debates really work themselves on out on ID-related issues, at length. Again, the paradox: UD is really valuable that way. In spite of itself, though!
By (2) I don’t mean by “engaging” that some smart-ass grad student in say, virology (to choose a subject at random), should write a letter to Behe, saying “How can you publish such sophomore crap as science?” I mean entering upon a respectful conversation. This could be done privately with individual ID proponents who work in a field that one knows (e.g. biochemistry, computer science). It could be done, occasionally, through Discovery (see the politie Dembski/Shapiro/Axe/Gauger conversation there). It could be also be done in various media, e.g., Huffington Post, First Things, Scientific American, etc., if critics of ID would publish reviews of ID jobs that are not deliberate hatchet jobs, but constructively critical; the critics would find that the leading ID people would respond very positively to critics who gave them some credit for intelligence and honesty instead of treating them as scientific incompetents and liars.
I hear you, and understand the problem. I think there's more "constructive criticism" out there than you think, and account for that delta by supposing that much of that constructive criticism does come with varying degrees of derision towards the ID proponents. That is not to excuse unwarranted derision, but sometimes, the derision is deserved, too. Either way, though, understand that ID, thanks is part to this very blog and our gracious host Dr. Dembski, has a badly damaged brand. It's a fallacy to dismiss an ID proposal just because it comes under the auspices of a damaged brand, but let's not kid ourselves about the expectations. It's something IDers are going to have to expect to overcome. There is much constructive criticism to work with, if you don't dismiss anything that comes ALSO with a sneer outright. It's unfair at points, no doubt, but if you really ARE motived by the substance, you have a lot to work with if you can just get over the sneer. I have a lot of experience with this myself as a vocal atheist. In my family/community/circle of peers, there are lots of challenges that come from a theistic perspective. But it's part and parcel of those contexts that they come wrapped in all manner of derision, bile, and outright hatred. I don't like that anymore than you would, but I do claim to be interested in the substance, and so, letting that stuff just run right off my back is what works toward my goals.
You made a remark about this statement: “In short, I know of no place where ID makes any “religious” argument against “science.” ” You said that I could not say that with a straight face in light of what is written on this site. But I said ID, not UD. By ID I mean the general argument for design, not the cultural activities of any people who happen to be defending ID at the moment. ID *per se* has no religious argument at all. ID proponents quite often do; but when they do this, they speak as lone wolves, not for ID as a theory.
Fair enough, I accept that as an effective clarification away from my reaction. I don't see any scientific argument for design in ANY of ID, and I claim to have looked, watched, read, searched. I don't count arguments that "win by default" as a positive or scientific argument for ID, however, so I suspect that is why we will disagree on whether ID has an authentically scientific framework to advance. I don't doubt that many suppose that design IS scientifically discoverable/determinable, but to date, nothing has gotten beyond a casual, informal, intuitive conviction along these lines. There are lots of examples to cite in support of this claim on this blog.
I think you are being less than charitable or even fair in your imputations of motives to Dembski, Nelson, Meyer, etc. I think imputing motives is a very difficult thing to carry off successfully. It’s better to focus on the argument.
I agree, in principle. But at some point, the consilience is just compelling in terms of the fraud. I don't have to know Wells' "heart" to understand his Icons to be an egregious crime against scientific thinking and good scholarship. Perhaps Wells is just stupendously incompetent or gullible. That's an option, I guess. But one can't look at that in a sober way and not see both the motive and the manifestation of a deliberate hack job. For the record, that happens from the science side, too. It just doesn't tend to get the "leading minds of the movement" traction that Wells, for example, does. And also for the record, for all of Wells' troubles, I don't see all ID advocates as being similarly problematic. Behe's mistaken, I think, but he's not a con-man like Wells. That's to Behe's credit and Wells' demerit. Every case is a different case.
I’m not sure what else to say. I cannot speak for anyone else here but myself. I’m not management, just a guest like you. I disagree with some positions taken by UD columnists. I disagree with some positions taken by ID commenters here. But I’m not going to abandon ID for that, any more than someone would abandon a political party whose goals they supported because they didn’t like a couple of planks in the platform, and than someone would abandon his family because it contained a black sheep or two. I think that ID as a position is defensible. Not flawless — there isn’t an ID book I don’t have some criticism of, and I like some ID leaders’ position better than others’. But I think the position is defensible. And I think that the classic neo-Darwinian position has gaping weaknesses. What else can I do, but what I’m doing? Move over to Panda’s Thumb, and be personally reviled? Move over to Biologos, and be told I support bad science and heretical theology? Start my own blog, maybe, and get very little traffic to hear my ideas? I’m open to suggestions.
I don't have any magic wands to wave, here, unfortunately. But I can salute what I see as an earnest appeal to high-minded principles here from you, thanks. I won't hold back on criticizing where I think it's deserved. I also don't want to overlook moments where good principles and good will are put into action. Kudos! If you are an earnest ID proponent (and I don't doubt you are, now), you have a really remarkable opportunity. It should speak loudly to you that all this huffing and puffing here at UD about the scientific gravitas of ID is conspicuously missing application, actual development, or putting-to-the-test. If your understanding is right, there really are profound breakthroughs to be made along the path you are thinking. I don't think the enterprise gets off the ground, at all. But it's not a settled matter. If you are "the real deal", it's wide open, man. Get to really pushing the frontiers of ID as a serious, scientific, intellectual enterprise. You don't have much competition. And you don't have to be the "Newton of Information Theory". Just making small, but real advances on the intellectual frontiers of ID would be highly interesting for everybody, and super gratifying for you!
My dispute with Elizabeth has a long history. I have corresponded with her for months now, and most of the time, I think, like a grown-up, as you put it. I have never refused to debate any of her points. The particular statement you objected to may have seemed like grandstanding, but that wasn’t its intention. I was responding to her (non-grown-up, in my opinion) denigration of Behe’s book as “silly” and challenging her to back up that claim to Behe and the scientific public rather than me and UD. I’ve since written a follow-up post which makes my motives more explicit. You can like it or hate it, but my differences with Elizabeth spring largely from personal style and have nothing at all to do with the nuts and bolts of ID. But any further discussion of this matter I will have with Elizabeth herself; or, if she so instructs me, I will leave off criticizing her in the future. But that has nothing to do with you and me. It’s up to you whether to continue on this thread.
I don't know the back story, you're right. It seemed quite incongruous, though. I had gone to read your exchange with aiguy_again (which was worthwhile, thanks to both!), and that snark toward Dr. Little just was quite a juxtaposition. But really, best to just cruise right by all that melodrama, and focus on the big concepts and issues. Do the math! So that's is correction I can accept for myself, and can see my own contributions to the snark there, myself. Sorry. Plus, Dr. Liddle is more than able to take care of her own affairs. She doesn't need the likes of me butting in, there. Thanks!eigenstate
February 2, 2012
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@Timaeus#21,
You seem to be disappointed that UD does not live up to the standards that ID proclaims. Well, so am I. I think there is too much evolution-bashing here, and too much culture-war flak. (From all sides, not just the ID side.) But you are asking the impossible of an institution like this.
I agree, as it's constituted and run. It didn't have to be this way. Much of what you see here are just the natural consequences of the choices management has made. And really, for what the management is hungry for, UD is actually pretty successful (from their PoV), I think.
Anyone can post comments on UD. We have people here with everything from Ph.D.s in biology down to high school diplomas in nothing in particular. Some people posting here know biology but not computer science; others know computer science but not biology. Some are scientists, some lawyers, some writers, some housewives. Some are undergraduates, some are retired professors. Some have read every book by every major ID proponent, some have read only a few blogs and bits of Behe or Johnson. Some are Christians, some Jews, some agnostic, some Deist, some devotees of Eastern religion. Of the Christians, some are Catholic and some fundamentalist.
Understood. The management bears the responsibility, here, though. As much as I may shudder at the posting habits of the more trollish posters (hey Joe!), they are just the playing pieces on the board. This blog is designed to be what it is. Look at who edits and manages this blog. There is no other explanation for those choices than to effect just what you see and lament, here. Joe's a device. So is kairosfocus, just like Denyse or DaveScot, implements toward a desired solution. The latter are just "official" devices.
There is no entrance exam for being even a columnist on UD, let alone a commenter. You don’t have to prove you know anything about population genetics or computer programming or probability theory or even that you have read any of the books you are arguing vehemently for or against. The place is a free-for-all, where great knowledge and insight are mixed up with ignorance, stupidity, bluffing, and political agendas. And that applies to all camps who write here, not just the ID people.
Again, the restaurant will necessarily reflect the choices and priorities of the management. You get the clientele and behavior you design for with those choices. Look at Telic Thoughts. Two stark contrasts are easily identified: 1) the pro-ID mods and management have some measure of responsibility in policing trolls, on BOTH sides, and 2) the mods and management actually make earnest efforts to LEAD, and promote edifying discussion. They can't control what people say (beyond mod/censor capabilities). But they can set good examples, and people notice that and respect that and follow that. At UD, some of the worst offenders are the ones running the joint. There's really no way to sugar-coat the realization that this blog is largely RUN by trolls. Again, there are exceptions, which I appreciate, but it bears comparison even with some of the more feverish young earth creationist forums: there, you get some crazy stuff and really bad behavior, but the "leading trolls" are not typically the people with the keys to the admin dashboard.
Compare this with, say, a scientific journal, where certain standards have to be met before an article is published, or an academic conference of scientists or scholars, where papers have to be accepted beforehand, and, when they are debated after being read, must be debated relevantly and politely, with no long digressions on people’s pet peeves.
Indeed. I understand this and agree with the comparison you are drawing. I just think you are overlooking the corrosive role of the management in the case of UD. Lots of "free-for-all" blogs are not like this.
This is true on every single blog site on the internet. I don’t think that Pharyngula or Panda’s Thumb or TalkOrigins come even close to exemplifying the gracious, gentlemanly habits of doing science that were practiced by Darwin and the folks of his age. Those places are filled with polemics, unfair arguments, cheap shots, literature bluffs, ad hominem remarks, mischaracterizations of one’s opponent, etc. All the very opposite of the spirit in which Darwin wrote The Origin of Species. So what should we do, throw out the theory of evolution because half the posters at those sites are bluffing, cocky, arrogant a–holes? And if you wouldn’t do that, why would you throw out ID, just because so many commenters on UD fail to live up to the noble ideal of ID science held out by Behe, etc.
I think we will "agree on symmetry" in the sense we both see the other side as being more problematic than our own. But I maintain that Panda's Thumb, even if I stipulate a kind of "troll parity" (and I do not agree with that as a fact of the matter, just a hypothetical) with UD, still has both the authors/management and the "supporters" engaging in substantive intellectual discourse that UD just doesn't provide, and not nearly so. I anticipate you won't agree, but that is a stark asymmetry I identify.
I would love it if this place, and all the sites I just mentioned, and Biologos, and other sites would all agree to just debate the science and the methods of science (with reference to the history and philosophy of science) and eschew all the culture-war business. But that isn’t going to happen. It’s like wishing that people all over the world would renounce war or that all religions or ethnic groups would agree to live harmony starting tomorrow.
Perhaps. But this is one of those situations where "deliberate naïveté" and suspension of rational cynicism is in order. If we -- you, me, other readers of good will here -- don't take it upon ourselves to focus on substance (doing the math, applying the models, giving precise definitions to our terms, assessing results objectively, etc.), then we really can't complain about anyone else. I'm not naïve enough to think I can change any of this myself, but this is where "bottom up" works. Just police our own area, each of us, and that is a good thing. It can scale!
If anyone wants to read some “pure” ID, not tainted by all the culture-war business, I have already suggested how to find it. I gave a list of basic writings to Petrushka. In those writings there is no culture-war flak. There are scientific arguments. They may be good or bad, useful or useless. But they are what ID is about. (There are some columnists here also who do a fair job of presenting the core ideas of ID. I think a discerning reader can tell which ones, by the tone, the orderly presentation, the respect for empirical science, and the genuine concern for understanding nature that underlies the writing.)
OK, I do remember you offered a list, but if I recall correctly, you had Stephen Meyer AND Denton on it (apologies if I'm confusing your list with someone else's). If so, I think we are at loggerheads, I'm afraid. Lauding Meyer's decorum is to miss the big, bad problems in Signature in the Cell. It's all the more problematic since by virtue of his obvious skills and eduction, he should know better than just about anyone to avoid doing what he does. I know we've covered that a bit... just sayin'. I don't doubt that other books on your list fit nicely into what you are saying about being the "best of ID", or "pure ID", however. I'll go have a look. Continued anon...eigenstate
February 2, 2012
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"This is not a personal attack." Really? Timaeus, have you ever published in Nature? Have you ever gotten a top notch grant, or tenure at a R1 university? Then you have no right to critique anything Lenski writes. Or me, for that matter. So shut up. That is the tone of your post. Your entire post is a diatribe against one person who posts here, largely based on some (likely fictitious) claim to authority. Most interesting to me is the line that her time is to valuable to post here...which implies the other denizens of this blog who spend far more time posting tens of thousands of words at once...have time, perhaps not as valuable as hers? Are they useful idiots to you?DrREC
February 2, 2012
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Timaeus, Judging by the tone of your response, I could almost swear you're a sock for Dr^3 Dembski.paragwinn
February 2, 2012
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Eigenstate: Thanks for your articulate and educated reply. Your earlier comments were quite aggressive, and I did not see the thoughtfulness underneath them until your latest recasting. I appreciate the effort. I can agree with most of what you say, though not always with the way you are framing things. You seem to be disappointed that UD does not live up to the standards that ID proclaims. Well, so am I. I think there is too much evolution-bashing here, and too much culture-war flak. (From all sides, not just the ID side.) But you are asking the impossible of an institution like this. Anyone can post comments on UD. We have people here with everything from Ph.D.s in biology down to high school diplomas in nothing in particular. Some people posting here know biology but not computer science; others know computer science but not biology. Some are scientists, some lawyers, some writers, some housewives. Some are undergraduates, some are retired professors. Some have read every book by every major ID proponent, some have read only a few blogs and bits of Behe or Johnson. Some are Christians, some Jews, some agnostic, some Deist, some devotees of Eastern religion. Of the Christians, some are Catholic and some fundamentalist. There is no entrance exam for being even a columnist on UD, let alone a commenter. You don't have to prove you know anything about population genetics or computer programming or probability theory or even that you have read any of the books you are arguing vehemently for or against. The place is a free-for-all, where great knowledge and insight are mixed up with ignorance, stupidity, bluffing, and political agendas. And that applies to all camps who write here, not just the ID people. Compare this with, say, a scientific journal, where certain standards have to be met before an article is published, or an academic conference of scientists or scholars, where papers have to be accepted beforehand, and, when they are debated after being read, must be debated relevantly and politely, with no long digressions on people's pet peeves. Or with a place like The Discovery Institute, which selects its Fellows according to its own criteria, and therefore can achieve some focus in its program, not trying to encompass every idiosyncratic viewpoint that one might hold on design and evolution. You can get a coherent ideal form of ID if you distill the highest and noblest claims of its most thoughtful advocates (whether they are housed at Discovery or elsewhere). You cannot expect that in a free-for-all, everyone is going to exemplify the ideal form of ID. This is true on every single blog site on the internet. I don't think that Pharyngula or Panda's Thumb or TalkOrigins come even close to exemplifying the gracious, gentlemanly habits of doing science that were practiced by Darwin and the folks of his age. Those places are filled with polemics, unfair arguments, cheap shots, literature bluffs, ad hominem remarks, mischaracterizations of one's opponent, etc. All the very opposite of the spirit in which Darwin wrote The Origin of Species. So what should we do, throw out the theory of evolution because half the posters at those sites are bluffing, cocky, arrogant a--holes? And if you wouldn't do that, why would you throw out ID, just because so many commenters on UD fail to live up to the noble ideal of ID science held out by Behe, etc. I would love it if this place, and all the sites I just mentioned, and Biologos, and other sites would all agree to just debate the science and the methods of science (with reference to the history and philsophy of science) and eschew all the culture-war business. But that isn't going to happen. It's like wishing that people all over the world would renounce war or that all religions or ethnic groups would agree to live harmony starting tomorrow. If anyone wants to read some "pure" ID, not tainted by all the culture-war business, I have already suggested how to find it. I gave a list of basic writings to Petrushka. In those writings there is no culture-war flak. There are scientific arguments. They may be good or bad, useful or useless. But they are what ID is about. (There are some columnists here also who do a fair job of presenting the core ideas of ID. I think a discerning reader can tell which ones, by the tone, the orderly presentation, the respect for empirical science, and the genuine concern for understanding nature that underlies the writing.) If anyone finds the presentation of ID here belligerent, confused, or ideological, they have two options: (1) Find the reasonable, moderate people here, whether columnists or commenters, who appear to have actually read ID writings carefully, and argue only with them, ignoring all the rest; (2) Forget about this place, and engage the actual ID leaders in debate. By (2) I don't mean by "engaging" that some smart-ass grad student in say, virology (to choose a subject at random), should write a letter to Behe, saying "How can you publish such sophomore crap as science?" I mean entering upon a respectful conversation. This could be done privately with individual ID proponents who work in a field that one knows (e.g. biochemistry, computer science). It could be done, occasionally, through Discovery (see the politie Dembski/Shapiro/Axe/Gauger conversation there). It could be also be done in various media, e.g., Huffington Post, First Things, Scientific American, etc., if critics of ID would publish reviews of ID jobs that are not deliberate hatchet jobs, but constructively critical; the critics would find that the leading ID people would respond very positively to critics who gave them some credit for intelligence and honesty instead of treating them as scientific incompetents and liars. You made a remark about this statement: "In short, I know of no place where ID makes any “religious” argument against “science.” " You said that I could not say that with a straight face in light of what is written on this site. But I said ID, not UD. By ID I mean the general argument for design, not the cultural activities of any people who happen to be defending ID at the moment. ID *per se* has no religious argument at all. ID proponents quite often do; but when they do this, they speak as lone wolves, not for ID as a theory. I think you are being less than charitable or even fair in your imputations of motives to Dembski, Nelson, Meyer, etc. I think imputing motives is a very difficult thing to carry off successfully. It's better to focus on the argument. I'm not sure what else to say. I cannot speak for anyone else here but myself. I'm not management, just a guest like you. I disagree with some positions taken by UD columnists. I disagree with some positions taken by ID commenters here. But I'm not going to abandon ID for that, any more than someone would abandon a political party whose goals they supported because they didn't like a couple of planks in the platform, and than someone would abandon his family because it contained a black sheep or two. I think that ID as a position is defensible. Not flawless -- there isn't an ID book I don't have some criticism of, and I like some ID leaders' position better than others'. But I think the position is defensible. And I think that the classic neo-Darwinian position has gaping weaknesses. What else can I do, but what I'm doing? Move over to Panda's Thumb, and be personally reviled? Move over to Biologos, and be told I support bad science and heretical theology? Start my own blog, maybe, and get very little traffic to hear my ideas? I'm open to suggestions. My dispute with Elizabeth has a long history. I have corresponded with her for months now, and most of the time, I think, like a grown-up, as you put it. I have never refused to debate any of her points. The particular statement you objected to may have seemed like grandstanding, but that wasn't its intention. I was responding to her (non-grown-up, in my opinion) denigration of Behe's book as "silly" and challenging her to back up that claim to Behe and the scientific public rather than me and UD. I've since written a follow-up post which makes my motives more explicit. You can like it or hate it, but my differences with Elizabeth spring largely from personal style and have nothing at all to do with the nuts and bolts of ID. But any further discussion of this matter I will have with Elizabeth herself; or, if she so instructs me, I will leave off criticizing her in the future. But that has nothing to do with you and me. It's up to you whether to continue on this thread. I hope I've listened and granted you all I can. If I don't hear back, maybe we will meet on some other thread.Timaeus
February 2, 2012
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Very elegantly and cogently put, Eigenstate.Timbo
February 2, 2012
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@Timaeus#18,
I don’t know what to make of some of your remarks about politeness and respect. I see that you agree with me that politeness is a good thing in itself. You also make a point, which I accept, that politeness is no substitute for good science, good reasoning, etc. Who could disagree with that? But other parts of what you are saying, I’m having trouble following. Let me clarify my position: I wasn’t saying that anyone should seek being respected by UD commenters as a valuable goal in itself. I wasn’t suggesting that they should sacrifice self-respect in order to be thought of highly. I was saying:
OK, I like this paragraph!
(1) You can firmly disagree with ID without being rude, obnoxious, stubborn, dogmatic, manipulative, deliberately misrepresenting people’s arguments, refusing to accept corrections when direct quotations stare you in the face, etc. Physicist Stephen Barr and evolutionary biologist H. Allen Orr disagree with ID, and they are gentlemen. Myers and Shallit and Moran disagree with ID, and they are Neanderthals. (I wouldn’t put Matzke in the same group as the Neanderthals. Matzke is generally polite. But he is incredibly stubborn and closed-minded when it comes to ID.)
I understand. I think the "elephant in the room" is that there is a line crossed where the "other side" (or possibly both, I guess) is not dealing in good faith. For example, Wells' Icons is a "textbook case" of bad-faith apologetics, dishonest dealing on the subject of evolution. It's not a matter of being just wrong on the merits; that really is not such a problem, and science doesn't go anywhere if thinkers are not venturing hypotheses and models that are wrong, and sometimes spectacularly wrong. Rather, Wells is pulling a con-job, and it's not hard to spot, or even to demonstrate, given you can get an audience that will listen long enough to digest the debunking of that work. Politeness is a worthy goal, but Wells is scoundrel, and debases the whole enterprise of science by bringing in the kind of malign polemics and cheap misdirections he does in his book. Being polite, as good as that is, is just playing the chump to Wells. Just by way of contrast, I think Michael Behe's works are problematic, but have no problem understanding that Behe proceeds in good faith for the most part. His "defenses" routinely signal "goal post moving" to me, but even if that's true, that's a guy who deserves politeness and comity in engaging him, even if he's thoroughly mistaken. I just point this out as a means of demonstrating that it's not *intrinsic* to ID advocacy. Mike Gene is another example of a "good faith" ID proponent, even as I so strongly disagree with his (her?) ideas. William Dembski isn't quite as bad as Wells, but he's in the same "bad faith" tier. Not intellectually serious, earnest, accountable. And proud of it, to boot! "FU, mainstream science who has scorned me!. Ressentiment
(2) It isn’t important to gain the respect of *everyone* in the opposing camp; it is important to gain the respect of *the most moderate and thoughtful members* of the opposing camp — if you hope to ever persuade them to your point of view.
I can get behind this idea, for the most part. Uncommon Descent is, by far, the most cynical blog I've encountered in this respect, though. Or rather, the "pro-IDers" here are so thoroughly immoderate, and unthoughtful, and just plain ignorant [SERIOUSLY: elsewhere, right now, BA77 is defending the idea that evolution is a violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Even worse, not ONE pro-IDer, who BA77 might listen to just a little bit, as opposed any critics who reply to him, has taken the opportunity to mitigate this kind of embarrassment... this gets pounced on to stop the humilation at young earth creationist forums, by YECs). That's a generalization, and generalizations are necessarily false, to some degree, or they are not generalizations. But in many years of "touring" creationist/religious/fundamentalist sites on the web, this one has the most conspicuous dearth of moderate, thoughtful IDers to engage. It's not a mystery, but an entirely predictable product of the choices Dembski made to manage and moderate this blog. It's the "Free Republic Principle", where the partisans in charge discourage moderation ("No Romney!") and exalt immoderation and "red meat" partisanship (I could have used "Democratic Underground Principle", too, I know, as that's not just a right wing phenomenon, but the current "biorhythms" of American politics has the right wing in "frothing" mode right now).
If *those* people think you are rude, or vulgar, or ideological, or stubborn, or condescending, or unfair in argument, or intellectually dishonest, or too proud to ever grant a point to them, you have lost the only potential converts that you have. So, for example, I couldn’t care less if I have the respect of Shallit or Myers; they are thugs, and I don’t care what thugs think of me.
Right. I get that, truly. We can be on opposite sides, and both appreciate the symmetry of that sentiment, the "cuts both ways" dynamic. That's pretty much the rub, though. Myers is more responsible and grown up than kairosfocus, though, and I don't need to diminish the offenses of PZ to say that. Shallitt has way more respect for science, philosophy, inquiry, and intellectual discipline than Gil Dodgen does, and that stands, in my view, even being fully aware of Shallitt's boorishness, etc. I would say you are the counterexample, if I had to name one here. You don't have much competition, unfortunately, and as I said above, I can see the "spirit of kairosfocus" peeking out around the edges of your last couple posts to Dr. Liddle. I think I well may be seeing Timaeus conform to the culture that's fostered here, and soon. I hope not.
But I would be very glad to have the respect of H. Allen Orr or Stephen Barr or John Polkinghorne or any of the more thoughtful and reflective champions of Darwinian ideas. Precisely because they are thoughtful, there is hope of winning them over to ID, or at least of showing them that ID is a serious intellectual position, not religious fundamentalism.
Understand and agree! I will insist on a key asymmetry here, though. PZ Myers, for all his "uncouthness", can deliver, intellectually, when he wants to, or needs to. He's a heavy-weight, or a heft medium-weight when it counts to the difficult work of intellectual performance and knowledge building. Dembski is a con man, though, a lightweight, a poser. He makes lots of social blunders, too, I note, but he doesn't have the redeeming substance of actually being able to deliver where it really counts. That's not a hard rule for ID advocates, as I said above. There are ID advocates who are serious, thoughtful, deserving of respectful dialog and discourse, even if I/we disagree vehemently on the merits of the argument. Uncommon Descent just doesn't attract, seek or develop that. It's an intellectual ghetto here, a place for the scorned and dissonance-discomfited to get a shot in the arm for their superstitions. That is Dembski's legacy, here, a heritage of ressentiment.
I’m not really interested in going over all the vagaries of the disputes of the various UD commenters you’ve mentioned. I don’t know the history of when each of them was banned, disciplined, put on moderation, etc. If you are harking back to four or five years ago, remember that the two head honchos who did most of the bannings back then are no longer here.
I understand. The harsh truth is UD was better off under the management of DaveScot. That's a damning realization if there ever was one. It's way more "ghetto" now than it was then, intellectually. Dave was obnoxious and capricious, but could at least follow what he was reading, and just had a huge ego rather than the kind of pompous narcissism that controls the knobs here. vjtorley seems a decent guy, I have to point out, an exception to the rule. Fair's fair. I don’t think Myers has any redeeming qualities. I think he is an embarrassment to his university and that his manners and his ideological orientation to knowledge disgrace the very title Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) He represents the vulgarization of the American professoriate more than anyone else I can think of, and his occupation of a professor’s chair is evidence of the decline of Western Civilization. If he is one of your role models for evolution/ID discussion, you and I are not going to see eye to eye. OK, I understand, and I do disagree. I don't think the science CAN be vulgarized or debased AS science, no matter how many Eucharist wafers Myers profanes. The science is what it is, and stands on its own. I don't countenance antics like PZ's wafer shenanigans, but that really is a trifle, a faux pas compared to the sustained and deliberate campaigns of debasing science and knowledge building waged by people like Dembski, Wells, and Meyers. Those are value judgments, I know. And I'm fine with clarity on each of our different value choices as the outcome of this.eigenstate
February 2, 2012
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@Timaeus#18,
You write throughout your post as if there is some kind of war between ID and something you call “science.” This is the “warfare view” that pits “science” against “religion,” with the new twist that ID is now cast as the representative of “religion.” The warfare view of science and religion has been discredited among serious historians of science for decades. It survives only in popular culture and among those academics and scientists who read no history.
I'm not suggesting that is a necessary condition; I was a Christian for decades, and for most of that a theistic evolutionist. While I no longer believe that's a position that's warranted or supported by the evidence around us, at the same time having spent much time and effort in that position, I understand that some forms of religion can be and are highly compatible with modern science, "overlays" that are careful to yield to and integrate scientific knowledge, and which provide metaphysical explanations and other meta-narratives that are beyond the epistemic reach of science. Young Earth Creationism cannot harmonize with science, in other words, but careful forms of theistic evolution can. In any case, that's not my offering here. I'm thinking about the realpolitik of the debate in places like this blog. It really would be noble and interesting if ID were to offer a serious challenge to current science in such a way that progress could be made on the evidence, models, predictions, empirical tests -- science is a powerful, peaceful, and robust way to settle disputes and competing conjectures. People with clashing ideas can honorably agree to "let the numbers tell the tale", and "let the evidence from empirical tests decide". I don't see that as negating or nullifying all religion, and know that some religious frameworks can "wrap around" science without incurring fatal contradictions or self-falsification in doing so. But here, this is pure culture war, alas. I can, and many other critics have more ably than I, press for application of models, precise and operational definitions of terms, etc. But a review over years of posts here shows that such efforts just have to stand as futile attempts to engage. The IDers here won't/can't participate at that level. That said, I can tip my hat to Genomicus, who I see as making an earnest attempt at providing scientific predictions for his particular take on ID. The predictions as he has presented them are problematic, for reasons I detailed in my responses to him, but that should not diminish my appreciation of an earnest effort to "do the right thing" on this blog, where such is so rare.
Beyond this general point, warfare against science is a complete misrepresentation of the intentions of all the intellectually serious ID people. ID’s whole point is the ID/Darwinism conflict must be understood as science vs. science, not science vs. religion. What we have is two different groups of scientists and admirers of science, each interpreting nature differently. We have Dawkins, telling us that design in biological systems is only apparent design, and Behe, telling us it is real design. Both have Ph.D.s. Both have written dozens of peer-reviewed papers and/or scientific books. Both teach/have taught at secular universities (not Bible colleges or denominational colleges). What we have is two scientists who disagree about the implications of protein science, of irreducibly complex systems, etc.
Well, this is tough going, addressing this question. I do think there are intellectually serious ID people, but they are not the people I've seen you identify. A profound insight available from this blog (now a bit faded into past years, but still valid) is just how UNSERIOUS Bill Dembski is an an ID thinker. The "intellectual" offerings from Dembski are best understood to be just cynical tools of a shamed culture warrior, a man who personifies what the French would call the politics of ressentiment. Stephen Meyer has serious intellectual chops, I'll grant. Dembski's not any near in his class. I know you admire Meyer, and can see reasons for that, even from my point of view, but at the end of the day, Meyer is "lying for Jesus", even (and especially) when he never mentions Jesus (thinking of Signature in the Cell, here, for example). Not only is the argument specious and self-serving in gerrymandering around the competition that his ideas really face from mainstream science (and of which he surely is aware), it's extra unserious in that just adds baroque ornamentation to a profoundly unserious impulse -- the God-of-the-Gaps reflex. Just by way of laying my cards on the table, that's Meyer in "high horsepower" mode, advocating for intuition and superstition. I understand you (or others, if not you) will find that a form of "seriousness", and I'm fine agreeing to disagree on that.
Behe never appeals to the Bible in any of his arguments; he cites only scientific literature. You can agree or disagree with Behe, but you can’t honestly find “science versus religion” in his writing. The same is true of design proponents such as Sternberg and Denton. There is no appeal to the Bible or theology in any of their writings. They write articles for peer-reviewed journals, and they study the scientific literature, and they criticize existing evolutionary theory on scientific grounds. The same is true of Axe, Gauger and others. There is no attack upon science from the point of view of religion here. There is only an attack on the neo-Darwinian conception of evolutionary change.
I agree with you on Behe and "science vs. religion" in his writing. I've read Darwin's Black Box a couple times through now, but I've not read Edge of Evolution, so I'm fine stipulating that, but can only speak from reading the first book of his. And as for Axe, Gauger, Behe, Abel, et al, I have no problem with, or little problem -- Sternberg's goof was a kind of 'religious sin' as an editor, but I will concede your point, broadly speaking. I don't see that as part of the ID movement, though. I am fully aware that ID partisans are eager to "penetrate" the peer reviewed literature for the intellectual currency that may afford them, so there will be cases like Biological Society of Washington where excepts to good practices occur, but generally, if ID thinkers can get their work through the healthy functioning turnstyles of respected secular journals, more power to 'em. That's just science at that point. The ID movement, and particularly this blog, is the "negative field" on background to anything like that. Just as a quick example, if Douglas Axe gets a major published this year that shows some failure in massive tests of E. Coli to evolve as predicted, that is what it is, scientifically, and more power to him. But there is a predictable and stark logic fail that will happen once Uncommon Descent gets wind of that: the failures, or changes needed for evolutionary theory don't help Intelligent Design at all. Axe's work may (this is all hypothetical, of course) dislodge some beam in the current theory. Scientifically, this is of no help to Intelligent Design; ID doesn't win anything by forfeit or default. That's not how science works. But that is how Uncommon Descent works. I understand various noises are made by the more thoughtful ID partisans of a science-ish nature. But if we did an audit of the last posts here in the last 3 years, the evidence would be overwhelming in support of the hypothesis that ID-at-UD is all about taking down evolution, and perceived fellow demons: materialism, socialism, neuroscience and heavy metal music. It's not a serious claim to suggest this blog is about a scientific case FOR anything at all, intelligent design or otherwise. Axe's (hypothetical) breakthrough would be celebrated as a major win for ID here, because the ethos here is not intellectually serious, but is just politically radioactive as part of the culture war between secular scientific and Supernatural Designer factions.
This is true even of the ID proponents who are also creationists. Dembski and Wells, in their Design of Life book, make zero use of the Bible or the theological tradition. Meyer does not argue from the Bible in Signature in the Cell. Wells does not argue from it in his new book on junk DNA. I’ve never seen Nelson dismiss a scientific argument on the basis of the Bible.
I have no trouble affirming all of that, and will go one further and stipulate that all of these men make a paragraph like that a "design objective" for their works.
In short, I know of no place where ID makes any “religious” argument against “science.”
This is not said as any kind of joke, but in all seriousness: you cannot say that with a straight face after reading this blog for more than a day or two. This is where it's good to point out the basis for using the term "intelligent design creationism". Not only is it apt on the merits -- the designer/front loader satisfies the criteria for the "creator" for the vast majority of its subscribers -- but importantly, ID uses the same "sciency mumbo jumbo" methods as the streams of creationism it sprang from. Paul Nelson can give the faithful plenty of sciency-sounding jargon that helps dissipate the cognitive dissonance of the religious believers. See? Science really does support my Christian faith! Is my God an awesome God or what??? This is a path Henry Morris plowed for ID, and Ken Ham after him. The faithful *aren't* critical or skeptical, and so "Meyer quality" sciency stuff, which I grant is WAY, WAY more sophisticated that the stuff Henry Morris pioneered this trope with, just gets a visceral, credulous acceptance. We have CSI now! The sign of intelligence, doncha know! This is apologetics in action. It needn't say "God did it". The audience already believes that, even if they are struggling at some level with the dissonance brought on by secular science. All they need is "jury nullification", and that is what Meyer and Nelson and Behe provide. They are confronted by a "scientific jury" that discredits their superstitions. Meyer doesn't need to mention Jesus or superstitions ONCE. All he has to do is nullify (in the eyes of the faithful) mainstream science, in sciency terms. That is the foundation of creationism, the apologetic basis for creation science, and now, here, intelligent design. More later, thanks for the feedback. I'm shocked at your last response to Dr. Liddle, and happy to continue, overall, but feel sheepish about this in light of such a childish reaction on your part to her, demanding she get a paper published in refutation of Behe (really? Did I really read that from you?) before you'll deign to respond. I'll chalk it up to momentary lapse of reason. But I do note that that bit of acting is the very kind of thing I understand to be beneath of all this, dialectically, here. You were doing a decent job of being a counterexample, but have nicely fit into my hypothesis, there. I'd rather have the counterexample confronting me, and you corresponding like a grown-up to Dr. Liddle, though. You are in very small company as an IDer in that regard, as it is.eigenstate
February 2, 2012
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Elizabeth: Make that gin a double. It's going to get worse. :-) You're far too easily offended by a little verbal jousting. I said "tribal" with a friendly elbow and a wink. And even if I had meant it aggressively, ID proponents are accused of being things 100 times worse than "tribal" every day. And I haven't seen you jumping in, here or elsewhere, to say that those denigrations and demonizations are inappropriate. As for much of the rest of your post, where you restate your knowledge in this or that area, I'm well aware that you have a high estimation of your own abilities -- an estimation which applies, as far as I can tell from your words, not only to the only biological fields in which you have degrees and publications (neuroscience and psychology, I believe), but to evolutionary biology and many other areas of the life sciences and other sciences where you have neither degrees nor publications, but are mainly an autodidact. I am quite happy to acknowledge that you are a bright autodidact. I think you have a fine mind. But you can't expect me to take seriously your claim to judge between Behe and Lenski, when both of them have spent many more years studying the relevant material than you have. Behe has three degrees in the life sciences as opposed to your one, and more than 35 peer-reviewed publications, outside of his work on ID. He reads the literature on Lenski and related material assiduously. You cannot possibly have read as much of this literature as Behe has -- not if you are keeping up with your research and teaching obligations in neuroscience and psychology. So there is no reason for me or anyone else to assume that your decision for Lenski and against Behe is well-grounded. (Especially when I strongly suspect that you have misinterpreted what Behe means by "Darwinian" because of your minimalist definition of that term, which we have recently established.) As far as what you say about evolutionary algorithms, I would not trust it as far as I could throw it. Dembski and Marks have been researching and publishing (and in the case of Marks, teaching) in this area for 10 years, and you don't have a peer-reviewed article in the field at all. You're making an amateur judgment. You've never written a computer program that models biological evolution, or if you have, you've never submitted it to the scientific world for criticism. You know a *bit* about evolutionary biology and a *bit* about computer science, but you have degrees in neither. To do evolutionary algorithms *properly* one needs a lot of knowledge in both fields. That's not a description of either your formal education or your research record, unless you are hiding something from us. Sorry to be blunt, but it's true. This is not a personal attack. I find you a pleasant, friendly person, much more likeable than 99% of the internet Darwinists I deal with. And as I've said, I find you bright. You're also quite a diverse and interesting person. But I also find you scientifically pretentious, as if you see yourself as a sort of modern Renaissance man, able to comment on a high level on almost anything that has anything to do with science generally and on almost anything in the life sciences in particular. I wish you would stop standing in judgment and rendering verdicts. It is this which bothers me, not that you disagree with me, or that you criticize ID, or anything like that. Finally, to be frank, it puts me off that you claim to be such a good research scientist, but spend so much time blogging. I've known many good scientists. A good research scientist is passionately committed to the life of research, and it occupies a huge proportion of the scientist's time. In addition, scientists who are university teachers should be passionately committed to students, both in the classroom and after hours in the office and in grading and commenting constructively on their work in the office or at home. I think it is irresponsible for anyone to take a salary for teaching and research and spend more than a few hours a week wrangling about evolution on the internet. You could produce three or four scientific articles per year with the time you spend on internet debates with non-scientists and half-scientists. I don't think serious scientists should be doing that. You don't see top evolutionary biologists like Allen Orr, Sean Carroll, Eva Jablonka, etc. blogging and debating to the extent that you do. And those scientists who *do* blog and debate extensively -- well, check out their record of recent publications in their fields, and compare it with their output before they ventured into culture-war polemics. Go ahead, tell me to mind my own business, but I have strong feelings about the duties of university faculty, and I think you are misusing your time. This is part of the cause of the friction you are feeling from me. I know many very fine scientists and scholars who, despite sterling academic records and substantial publications, never got university positions, and would kill to get one, and, if they got one, would never fritter away so much potential research time for the joys of internet blood sport. I say all of this because you have obviously detected that there is more in my posts than merely scientific disagreement. We have a basic disagreement in attitude, and I wanted to get that out in the open. If, given my feelings, you don't want me to respond to your posts again, I will respect your wishes by not doing so. But I wanted you to see that my somewhat forceful responses to you are not arbitrary, but have a basis, and what that basis is. I continue to think of you personally in a friendly manner, despite my obvious criticisms of your debating habits and activities. T.Timaeus
February 2, 2012
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